[Welcome Rich Benjamin and Host Rayne.] [As a courtesy to our guests, please keep comments to the book. Please take other conversations to a previous thread. - bev]
Rich Benjamin is a very brave young black man. He traveled into the heart of the whitest white of the United States for two years to take a closer look at what makes these racially homogenized places tick in what many believe is now a post-racial society.
Some of you may know that I’m of mixed race, although I “pass”; it would be difficult for you to figure out what my ethnic and racial heritage is without some help. But I don’t personally identify myself as white, and I certainly wouldn’t be brave enough to do what Benjamin did. Hell no. I live near an ethnic enclave of white people now, and it’s scary to imagine spending a week there on vacation, let alone living two years among them.
In some respects, Benjamin’s Searching for Whitopia: An Improbable Journey to the Heart of White America is much like Barbara Ehrenreich’s decade-earlier work, Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By In America. Like Ehrenreich, Benjamin made a wholehearted commitment to traverse deep into territory which might not be welcoming or even safe, in order to find answers to his questions.
Yes, I said not safe; it’s one of several ironies revealed in Benjamin’s work. Many of Whitopia’s residents complain about the necessity to be on guard and move to a safer place, away from those people (pick the bogeyman of choice, from illegal immigrants to L.A. yuppies). In truth, a lone black man in a predominantly white municipality has much more to fear than did the people he met and interviewed. Residents of Whitopia need not fear being pulled over for driving while white, for example; if you’re white living in a majority white area, the issue of your ethnicity/race rarely even crosses your mind. It certainly never enters into your thoughts that you might be physically harmed simply because of your race.
And yet Benjamin’s writing conveys a conversational and open tone. Observational details offer a sense of intimate understanding and awareness of the subjects he’s studying, without a hint of guardedness. His book makes for a pleasant and fun read because of this ease. At least one person Benjamin met during his sojourn has written a warm and appreciative review of his work at Amazon – not on his book, but on Benjamin’s research efforts. Perhaps the success of his work lies in his warm and friendly approach with the people he studied.
There has been critique that Benjamin’s work left readers with many “shoulds” – broad efforts we as a society should undertake to bridge the gaps between communities and socio-economic groups, instead of more specific, actionable tasks. I would heartily beg to differ.
You see, Rich Benjamin has taken a contemporary candid portrait of a nation which was founded on flight. Certainly some of the populations Benjamin studied were the result of white flight from more diverse urban centers, but some of the people he met were fleeing other things besides whatever brown people they felt were an existential threat. They were leaving behind those things they felt were threats to their culture — like those snotty L.A. yuppies or *gasp!* the gays, which are virtually non-existent in much of Whitopia. Some were fleeing a future they did not welcome, being deeply “nostalgic for the old days,” as one woman in my own home state said.
Flight is what made America, though; the denizens of uber-white enclaves are only doing what their forefathers did before them. Our nation celebrates every year the Pilgrims’ survival; they’d set sail on the Mayflower and headed for uncharted lands in which to shelter their small clan, to develop and share a culture based upon a religious sect. Flight is what brought waves of immigrants for the next two hundred years, leaving behind economic and political fears for a new home where they could have some sense of control over the course of their lives. With a history of flight and the inherent fragmentation and factionalization of small groups clustering in protective enclaves, it would be grossly unfair to believe that Rich Benjamin alone could provide us with a pointed list of steps we Americans of all stripes should take to reduce the inequities which have been embedded deeply in our society.
But he makes a valiant effort at opening our eyes to the possibility that we can and should slow American flight and begin to fully embrace the melting pot we are. It’s up to us to recognize ourselves in the mirror he holds up to our faces, stop our fearful flight to Whitopia or whatever sheltering but exclusionary community we have chosen, and make a home in a richly diverse nation.
Speaking of looking in the mirror, I can say Benjamin’s work checked me up short. I heard my own voice in some passages where the locals of Whitopia talk about seeking refuge from whatever their bugaboo — brown people, crime, nouveau riche, name it. A handful of years ago I built a new home in a small neighborhood of McMansions because we needed more room for growing kids and I wanted to escape a Walmart which sprang up in a cornfield only a block from my house. The amount of traffic and garbage and noise were incredible; the property values in the neighborhood fell and the crime increased. So we left and moved to a new home only a mile away.
In those reasons for leaving are a lot of the same rationales that the residents of Whitopia give for creating and maintaining their isolated islands as small as blocks and as large as counties. Was there a racial element to my decision making process? No, not at all. But I didn’t stay and fight the problems which came with the new store and the strip mall in which it was anchored. I could have demanded better of the municipal management with regard to noise and traffic control. I could have asked more of the surrounding neighborhood to fight the issues with me, organizing meetings and a citizen crime watch. I could have organized a suburban beautification effort to maintain and improve property values.
But no, I didn’t do any of those things. Instead of increasing my civic engagement and working with my neighbors, I fled. And now I live in a tiny Whitopia, surrounded by others who wanted a quiet, safe neighborhood and who unfortunately are at least 95% white.
Except for me, my blonde-haired kids with their oddly Polynesian brown eyes.
I am become Whitopia.
What about you? Do you live in Whitopia, too? Why are you there? If you don’t live in Whitopia, what’s it like and should we move back? What things should we be doing individually and collectively to address the issues which cause white flight, or is this a lost cause? And if you’ve read Rich Benjamin’s work, what did you take away from it? Be sure to check out this video overview of Rich Benjamin’s work, too. Join us in comments for what should be a lively discussion.



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Rich, Welcome to the Lake.
Rayne, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Thanks great to be “here”!
Welcome, Rich, thanks so much for joining us here today at Firedoglake. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed your book and look forward to chatting about Searching for Whitopia.
One thing I wanted to ask you, Rich, as I read your book: what one or two events made you feel most uncomfortable during your excursion into Whitopia? and conversely, when and where did you feel most comfortable, if at all? To what would you attribute these feelings?
The most uncomfortable: The Aryan Separatist retreat!
[Note: video link broken]
Another uncomfortable milieu was a Minute Man meeting! (Sorry just got the hang of “refresh” button!)
I would attribute discomfort to general feeling of being only non-white person in politically charged environments.
Hi Rich – glad you’re here.
I am certainly not as brave as you – I can’t imagine being at an Aryan meeting. Whew!
Yeah, I guess I should say I’m not surprised by that. Kudos to you for that.
There are places in my own town I dislike greatly — a restaurant in particular which is very, very white Republican, makes my hackles rise. And yet all the business folks go there, so I have to, too.
Hi Kelly, welcome to the salon
Welcome to the Lake, Rich. Thanks Rayne.
Indeed. In many Whitopias, there are restaurants or lodges that the political class dominate — so I had to become familiar with those, too!
Where did I feel most comfortable: probably in people’s homes who I had gotten to know…
Rich I recently read your book and it was fascinating.
I was amazed that you went to Idaho as you did.
Your book helps expose the open desire for ‘apartheid’ that a significant portion of our populace openly desires.
EDIT:… feels free to discuss openly.
Thanks, Elliot.
Good afternoon and welcome to FDL Rich. Nice write-up Rayne!
Rich, I have not had a chance to read your book so forgive me if you cover this, but did you have an escape/de-pressurization place you could hide in when things got too much emotionally for you? Or if you felt too threatened?
And as a tech note: There’s a “Reply” button in the lower right of each comment. Clicking the reply will pre-fill the name and comment being replied to (so that all can follow the conversation). If you are having to refresh the page, you will want to wait for it to complete as some browsers don’t recognize the reply if the page is still loading
Hi, Rich – welcome to the Lake.
Well, “apartheid” might be a bit strong… Non-whites in America don’t live under the conditions that non-whites in South Africa do. But I get the general gist…
I have a good friend who is half-Hawaiian. He’s a Nam Vet and a respected landscape architect in charge of large construction projects at the university. Several times, here in Georgia, he has been in situations where people think he is hispanic and can’t understand what they are saying and talk shit about him. Fortunately or unfortunately for them he doesn’t put up with that bullshit.
How much commitment had you felt toward that neighborhood before? In America, it’s quite possible to live for years in a place and not know your neighbors. Many of us are transients, going from one place to another when jobs or conditions merit. It’s hard to feel a sense of place.
It usually is much easier to simply pack up and move when things turn bad.
Rich – you began this journey of exploration in 2007, ending in 2009. Do you think you would find different attitudes had you started this trip in 2009? Does this so-called post-racial world look any different to you after your experience?
I never felt emotionally drained per se…. But then again, I experience and understand the world more thru my head than my heart. I did have escape hatches to keep sanctuary from all that hard work!!! …
Thanks – fixed.
I’d see and hear similar experiences from Latinos in the Southwest, Raven…
Yes, that’s just it: I knew very few of my neighbors, had very little emotional and psychic investment in my neighborhood.
My husband and I were professionals living in a neighborhood which was very mixed socio-economically, so we might not ever run into neighbors at social events. We also went to a church in a different municipality as it was closer than the one at the heart of our town, cutting out another opportunity to bond with our neighbors.
So pack up and leave we did — and in no small part because we had the money to do so.
[edit: We're Bowling Alone, the very people which Robert Putnam wrote about.]
Unfortunately, no. We’re not in a post-racial America, as much as I’d like us to be. The Ricci case. “Wise Latina…” The Beer Summit. Reid’s Negro… if I researched the book today, I’d have pretty much the same experience…
I think that’s part of Whitopia’s appeal to many — it actively (at time ridiculously) tries to counter the sense of “transience” you two are talking about with a throwback to 50s “values”
I live in an ethnically diverse suburb. I grew up in eastern Pennsylvania, which was very different. I suppose you could say I come from whitopia, and ended up here. Neighborhoods in PA tend to be ethnic enclaves – there are black parts of town, white parts, latino parts, and sometimes they’re even more precisely defined, say Italian or Chinese or Guatemalan. Out here in the Northwest, you don’t see much of that.
Until I lived out here I didn’t even realize how strange it was that this isn’t the way things are generally.
Just a drive-by. Thomas Shelling, in a book published a couple of decades ago, showed how even small differences in preferences to be near people like you can result in significant housing segregation. So while people express their preferences in exaggerated terms (like crime), the underlying reason for Whitopia could be as simple as that’s where they feel more comfortable.
These are scary people. I live among some of them and their sympathizers and find them simply terrifying, and I am white. Though I have no good ideas how to diminish their presence I suspect, because of their overt extremism they are less of a threat to the civil body as a whole. I have not read your book. and look forward to your comments. But here is the deep south it is the winking casually made smarmy comments among all socio-economic levels of whites that I think nurtures the embedded racism. These by folks mostly who will sit and drink coffee and hug fellow workers who are African American.
That said, which to you think is more pernicious now pure racism or the worship of wealth and stereotyping and demeaning the poor.?
Hi eCAHN, one of the book’s major points is to expose WHY people feel “more comfortable” — there’s a class, social, and racial component to that comfort level that the book reveals… It’s a very complicated mixed bag
But migrating to a lower crime area can only be done by those with the means to do so, and it never addresses the underlying problem of crime.
So to some extent, the non-racial decision can be culturally reinforcing.
As I’ve now discovered…
Rich, in your travels did you go to small towns that are too small for the creation of a Whitopia?
How did folks interact in those towns?
Too difficult a question! That’s like asking me which is worse: the AIG bailout or any other bailout. Both problems you point out are very bad, and not strictly comparable.
Thanks for that. I agree entirely, hence the qualifier “so-called.”
As I understand it, race has proven to be a real problem for the White House with regard to leading the uppermost echelons of the military. More Americans should keep this in mind as they read about Obama’s interactions with the generals.
I think in many ways that’s true. The neighborhoods in PA I referred to in that earlier comment tend to be made up of people how know each other – many have lived their whole lives there, and grew up with their neighbors. Out here, it’s much different. I think most of us ended up in my current neighborhood because it was affordable, convenient to multiple population centers, and fairly safe. But we don’t tend to know each other all that well.
Do you mean locations too small — population-wise to qualify — as Whitopias?
When I travel, I like to stop in local restaurants to eat, rather than chain restaurants, to get a feel for the local community. Sometimes, these are places that separate groups, while at other times they are places where people that otherwise don’t mix seem to do so.
Rich, any food-based observations in your book?
Small population-wise in which Whitopia might be two blocks in town but everyone still had to interact with each other.
Fear….fueled by ignorance and subtle instillation to manipulate. We all love, we all cry, we all bleed and we all die! I’m white and have considerable dislike for “Whitopia.”
“Until I lived out here I didn’t even realize how strange it was that this isn’t the way things are generally.”
Mind altering exposure, to see outside the box!
Yes, a lot more meat, and fewer “picky” eaters in Whitopia. I put on some pounds, relative to my native NYC. But I threw a lot of dinner parties in Whitopia to acclimate myself and get to know folks.
As I know is not new news, since African Americans were first enslaved in this country there has been a commonly expressed and held fear of violent black men. We saw it in the dire predictions of rioting in New Orleans after Katrina and more recently in Haiti.
I have worked lived in African American communities and never felt fear. I really think it may be time to challenge that stereotype? An awful lot of so called violence is from African American men running in fear.
The Whitopias I immersed myself in are larger –in population and area– than that.
So what would you serve at a “getting to know you” party — your take on the local delicacies, or some of your native NYC fare?
Oh yes, meat — red meat. With casseroles. Lots of them. And potatoes, especially potatoes with cheese.
It sounds like a caricature, but that’s what potlucks have been like in my Whitopia.
I’m the freak who brings veggie platters and hummus.
E-Cahn-nomics. Crime is a fasinating point. In one chapter, I chronicle my experience getting mugged in NYC — at gunpoint. For some whites, the primary reason for moving to Whitopia is indeed race. They said so to my face. But the majority of Whitopians I encountered aren’t explicitly practicing racial discrimination or self-segregation. These folks aren’t explicitly going there cuz it teems with other white people. but instead, the place’s very whiteness implies other perceived qualities: higher property values, friendliness, orderliness, shimmery lakes, beautiful mountains, homogeneity, etc …. these qualities are subconsciously inseparable from race and class in many whites’ minds. race is often used as a proxy for those neighborhood traits. that’s my take.
Hah! You’re not a freak!….
Reminds me of the concept of how “holes” move in semiconductors. As a way of explaining how holes, the empty spots where electrons typically exist, move, a professor provided an example:
Suppose there’s a big parking lot next to a shopping mall. The “holes”, empty parking spaces, tend to form in the part of the lot that’s farthest from the stores. Now, suppose a flea market opens up one day in the empty portion of the lot. The holes will now tend to move toward the stores, because people park closer to the flea market.
In this case, there’s no conspiracy or even any grand design, just a general desire for convenience. Yet that “force” applies to most of the people who park in the lot, and the pattern emerges.
In the case of neighborhoods, that slight difference in force applied produces big differences in where particular groups of people end up living. Like a small voltage applied to a piece of doped semiconductor, a small change can produce lots of movement of like things.
i served the same thing in whitopia that i would in nyc. i was being myself. that means pan-seared salmon, rice, steaks, jerk chicken, dirty rice, grilled corn on the cob, home-made ginger ice cream floats. the book might make you hungry. there’s a lot of Food and Entertainment talk as a back-drop to the social and political commentary
There are small Whitopias all across the country; I can think of one near the middle of my state. It’s grown over the last 30 years, in part because it’s a popular tourist attraction. They’ve actually used the town’s ethnicity as the theme for its development.
My family was steered away from it by realtors back in the 1970s because my dad isn’t white and most definitely not a member of the prevailing ethnic group.
I have believed that with more equal income and power distribution the racism would fall away. However the longer I live the more I am struck that our particular brand of racism has some very unique phobic features. And that won’t simply by those changes.
That said, do you believe there is I hope with the more and more global communicating and connecting American style racism will eventually become so diluted. and lose its power? I can even hope the right wing extremism is a sign of last gasps.
Ahem, your a “vector” for introducing new experiences!
At least that’s my term for it. As a gay person, most of my younger adult life up until about 10 years agao, I lived in the economicially challenged parts of town, wherever it might be. Just because money is a problem, doesn’t mean culture and food are.
So when I’d “vector” into whatever Whitopia setting with some sort of “exotic” food or music, it would gain a little acceptance. But I could never imagine my Morrocan friend showing up with harissa at one of those things and getting the same treatment. It’s maddening.
That’s fascinating. It jibes w/ my experience. Along with other “luring” qualities, racial homogenity can be used as a tourist/community recruting mechanism, as you’re pointing out with Frankenburg.
Well, outside of this particular Whitopia I might not be a freak. I’d be right at home in Honolulu or Seattle.
But here in my Whitopia I am a freak. The veggie-bringing token liberal freak. I embrace it, it’s my role in life to introduce the majority to chicken satay and other dishes they won’t find in the church’s annually produced community cookbook.
I have cautious optimism, Talking Stick. Right-wing extremism, in my opinion, is not in its last gasps. But w/ smart, committed invovlement on progressives side, we could well achieve what you’re talking about.
Hallelujah, Rayne. Kudos to you for embodying a little “counter-programmin” in your community!
Rich – what did you read while you were writing this book? Specifically are you familiar with Joe Bageant’s “Deer Hunting For Jesus” ?
Ah, what I wouldn’t give to try out different middle eastern foods, too.
You’re right, food is a great vector. We all have to eat, and eating is a primal community experience we feel deep in our genes. I can’t think of anyone I’ve ever met who didn’t love the smell of warm cinnamon baking, or chicken grilling outdoors.
The best cultural exchanges I’ve ever experienced were over food; it’s as if it cracked our heads open by forcing us to listen while we chewed.
I think I may have met a total of 3 (openly) gay people in my 26,909-mile, 2-year journey throughout Whitopia…
Yes. Joe Bageant is brilliant. The smartest commentator on working Southern whites that I’m familiar with…
Not surprised.
Speaking of ethnically-diverse food, I sense that one of the challenges we face with trying to dissuade white flight is a need to show benefits. Are there benefits to a diverse community, and are there good examples we should use as models? (I can’t help but think of Richard Florida’s work on the rise of cultural creatives here.)
And what are downsides to Whitopia which appear uniformly and are detrimental to their residents? I wonder if they can’t see them, just as I couldn’t initially see them where I live now.
Well, sort of. One of the harshest comments I heard from a Whitopian is when she told me she’d miss LA’s diverse restaurants …. “but not the people.”
C’mon. I know that the church cook books I have all have at least one chow mein or chop suey recipe!
Surely they ask you for some of the “exotic” recipes. (If not, they should)
I live in a ethnically and socio-economically (Section 8 renters through small business owners) diverse older neighborhood that once was a standalone suburb that had proximity to an area of lots of jobs. McMansions have grown up around this neighborhood in the past 10 years and they only slightly less diverse. There was a time in the early 2000s in which there was a wave of drug-related crime (mostly white and African-American youth doing brekins and car thefts) that result in one murder and a minor armed gang war. It was interesting to see how the diversity of this neighborhood became a strength in getting this situation dealt with by the police and the city government. And the instruments through which this occurred was the homeowners associations acting as a federation.
And what made this happen was the availability of a branch library within walking distance of most of the neighborhoods involved that was a meeting place for everyone. The library had meeting rooms that were not religiously identified or identified as being private to a single homeowners group. These sort of neutral places don’t usually exist (and are sometimes excluded or financially starved to death) in other neighborhoods in which I’ve lived that might be characterized as Whitopia.
Well, my favorite counterpoint example to Whitopia is Maplewood, NJ. High property values, good public schools, beautiful surroundings, and racially diverse.
I’m a Lutheran pastor of German heritage, and discussions of race often come up among my colleagues and myself. I have not (yet!) read your book*, Rich, but from the sounds of things here, much of what you say about geographic Whitopias can easily be translated into religious Whitopias. Does the book get into the role of churches and other religious organizations in the communities in which you traveled?
_______
* My reading time falls off drastically during Lent with extra services and activities between now and Easter, but this is at the top of my post-Easter reading list.
dakine, you’re bad!
I think there are lots of different explanations, and some are the ones you’ve mentioned. Others are the general correlation of wealth and ethnicity, mobility, and history.
People out here tend to move a lot. That’s partly because we’re the sort of people who will pack up and move easily. I grew up with folks who wouldn’t even think of moving to a different city, let alone across the country.
The history is that of waves of immigrants. In a lot of eastern cities, including Chicago, recent immigrants tend to cluster together. That explains why many cities have Chinatowns, Little Italys, or the like. You even see that out here to some extent, with some Asian populations. It’s for comfort, convenience, and safety that they do this. Later, those neighborhoods tend to be populated by the people who don’t want to move.
That characterizes a lot of the neighborhoods where I grew up. Of course, it doesn’t explain more recently established neighborhoods, but some of those forces apply there, too (sometimes in reverse).
I live in a Whitopia , a small old mill town ,with a lot of very conservative people. Until recently the only people of color were those that lived in the “bad neighborhoods ” downtown. Lately though , I’ve seen people of all different races, in the “nice ” white neighborhoods.
I was heartened to see this , I, am one of those people, who believes in the concept of the melting pot.
There is hope for us after all
Yes, there are different religious traits to the Whitopias. St. George, Utah is ~65% Mormon, %35 Protestand, Norht Idaho is very Christian AND libertarian, and Forsyth County, GA was very Baptist. The book talks about religion, conservatism, and diversity.
I have the page marked in which Rich talks about the number of gays he met on his sojourn. My bestest gay buddy and I talked about this; there’s a kind of reverse flight by many among the gay community in our state towards diverse communities because of a lack of support in the outlying Whitopias.
One friend in particular moved back and forth between the city and exurbs a couple times, frustrated with the crime in the city and frustrated with the lack of acceptance and lack of culture in exurban home.
It’s frustrating to me as a hetero, because I genuinely believe what Richard Florida found in his work, The Rise of the Creative Class. Gays are the canaries in the community, indicators of innovation and creativity which can only flourish in equitable and tolerant environments. Even large corporations get this, but getting people to understand this is so bloody challenging to real economic development.
I do believe there is hope, with enough awareness, determination, and smart ideas.
I’ve found that the owners of the local ethnic restaurants in otherwise white small towns often get a certain measure of acceptance. They have the food that folks like the LA expatriot you mentioned crave, and also as small business owners have put down the kind of roots in the community that help get acceptance.
Of course, this comes from time to time with a note of condescension from some of the oldtimers in town: “You’re not like those OTHER [insert ethnic group here] . . .”
I grew up in a small town in Kentucky but have lived all over the country. And I do love my church sponsored cookbooks (everyone gives up their second or third best recipes with the occasional person actually giving up Number 1)
Points very well taken. What fascinated me on this journey was to learn how the nitty-gritty forces — how we zone communities, do and don’t build roads, do and don’t build public transportation, do and don’t neglect inclusionary housing, and how the big-business real estate industry operates — help keep this country as racially and educationally segregated today as it was in 1970.
And that is exactly the point:
Equitable and Tolerant Environments = Creativity = Innovation = New Wealth Created.
That’s what kills me about conservatism and white flight. These are the very same people who say “wealth is created” but act as if “wealth is a pie to be cut. And Obama wants to redistribute our slice.”
Gahh.
oh, i love “church” comfort food! okra, fried chicken, taters, mac-n-cheese, gravy biscuits… (but i also love arugula, tempeh, wontons, sushi, etc.)
Does it seem like the white neighbors get uncomfortable about this? One of the old stereotypes of such neighborhoods during the 60s and 70s, was that the first ethnic family that moved into one of them was taken as a sign that it was time to move out. Those stereotypes were often valid back then. It would be nice to think that wasn’t so true anymore.
I’m sure much of this had to do with language and with churches. My family has been doing a lot of genealogy; in doing so, we’ve found clusters of family members who centered around churches where they could not only practice Catholicism, but had a priest who understood their language. They dispersed once the priest moved on. At the same time the community itself changed from French trappers and loggers to Polish farmers — and lo, the new priest was Polish himself, writing the new church records not in Latin as his predecessor but a mixture of Latin and Polish.
indeed. wealth in many of these whitopias did not magically spring from nowhere like a magical mushroom. the wealth is a direct result of public tax dollars “migrating” to help build “better communities” through their very influential residents and new comers. in many cases, the very republican folks that gripe over the stimulus benefit disproportionately by recieving more funds to their homogenous enclaves than they pay out in federal taxes.
What a fascinating book – I will definitely check it out when I can.
I think the ideas about America being “a nation built on flight” are very interesting, and I have not thought of it that way before. I think that image can be a very powerful bridge to help people understand American society. I imagine many people will be very disturbed by this, because while we are a nation of movers, we are also a people who revere “roots” and “home”.
We are living in “whitopia” now, too, after years and years of living in mixed neighborhoods. My OH and I both just got tired of the traffic and the closeness and the “busy-ness” of city life. Tired, too, I’ll admit, of loud teenagers, boom boxes, and hearing gunshots. So we bought out in the country, but it is very, very white. (We still hear guns, but not in terms of drive-bys…) I wonder about the effect of this neighborhood on my 5 year old, but I don’t feel a bit guilty about trying to improve our situation – at our last place, I’m not sure improvement was even possible, because there were so many corporate-owned huge apartment complexes instead of neighborhoods.
cujo, fascinating. you should share this w/ the lutheran minister who was asking about religion…
Often times , prejudice is born of fear. Many whites have never met a black person or brown person, the only things they know about the different races , is what they see on TV . And TV is not gonna give a very accurate picture.
It’s fear of the unknown , when the black or brown family moves into the white neighborhoods, people get to know them and see that the differences are superficial , that we’re all pretty much the same .
It’s a slow process, but , I see the changes coming
Thank you, Scout. I hope you read the book! A (white) parent of young children who moved for similar reasons as you said they loved the book because it tackles the issues in a nuanced and non-self-righteous, “fun” read…. (sorry for any immodesty)
And on the topic of geneaology and history…I want to thank you, Rich, for pointing out the excision of history with regard to minorities. You discuss the removal of black Americans — literally, an ethnic cleansing — from Forsyth County, Georgia after a rape and murder followed by mob action and a lynching. the history of this event was neatly removed from history, or at least wallpapered over by contemporary residents of the county.
There are many other examples of this happening across America over the last two hundred years; it’s good for us to recall that our country hasn’t merely fled to Whitopia, but forcibly created it here and there, and only some of these events are we aware of now since much has been buried locally.
It also affects members of the white community, with regard to those who did not speak English when arriving here over the last two hundred years. While doing geneaology we found the prevailing published histories of small towns focused only on English-Scots-German members of the community, leaving out any persons who were Catholic. French, Polish and Italian were disregarded as if they never existed, even though we found them in church and property records.
That’s something of a problem out here. There are houses everywhere, and some apartments. Neighborhoods where there are corner stores and other such things don’t exist that much, except for churches. Retail is in the retail zone, etc. You have to drive or ride a bike to get just about anywhere here. The nearest city or county facility of any size is at least three miles from my house by road.
Hi Rich. I loved your book (as well as your recent article on the Austin IRS attack). I want to believe that we can eventually move as a society towards a consensus recognition of historical debt to non-White Americans, but find it difficult to imagine ‘negotiating’ (rather than simply electorally marginalizing and defeating- making them more resentful) with Whitopians and those that don’t challenge White privilege. Do you see any potential strategies for politically negotiating with these folks or are they just going to have to be electorally and policy-wise overcome?
They can only imagine wealth-creation as one white guy hiring a bunch of “Others:” minorities and/or lower class whites.
I work in construction and hear this All The Time.
Yes, it’s a fascinating conundrum. On the one hand, this country has made TREMENDOUS progress since my parents generation (the 1960s). And we should be proud about that. On the other hand, there are subtle, deep-rooted forces that still vex us (including class).
There’s one branch of my family that came through Frankenmuth — some of those old Bavarian Lutherans. There was a desire for religious purity that drove some of them to emigrate from Bavaria — call it the theological equivalent of looking to get away from urban crime.
Thank you, Joel. As Spitzer recently said, progress rarely comes from bi-partisanship. I do believe that the political progress that many of us in the Lake aspire to has be electorally and policy-wise achieved, without any apology for the substance and depth of our views…
The irony of it is that the library is in a strip shopping center that commercial has deserted except for one beauty salon. Retailers who used to have enough customers just from this standalone suburb don’t have enough customers to support a similar size business today. It’s like what happens in small towns when the mall appears on the bypass.
Thanks, Rayne for pointing that out. The Trail of Tears and the literal ethnic cleansing of blacks from Forsyth County in 1912 were some of the most difficult parts of this book to research and wrap my head around.
Language and other cultural traits had quite a bit to do with it. So did mutual support. Immigrants tend to get less help from their municipalities and from the established population. It’s still that way, I think. I remember reading an article about Mexican immigrant neighborhoods, and they tend to be that way. They try to make best use of resources, like lending out cars or providing rides to people who need them. Out here the Korean immigrants have their own social networks. Life for my Irish and German ancestors must have been similar back in the 19th Century.
I think that goes to the points Rich makes in his book about zoning reinforcing some of the problems.
Communities in which one must have a vehicle to shop are challenging to those who cannot afford a car, weeding out by class who will live in those areas. The same communities often don’t want to spend money on public transit systems, reinforcing the problem.
With the financial crisis combined with climate change we have an opportunity to ask for a re-thinking of community; more people need public transportation, and more of us need livable communities in which we can walk to stores, churches and schools. We should be pressing our community managers about using stimulus money for public transit systems as well as sidewalks.
Rich, the blogosphere is on the one hand a place that is wide open, and on the other can often be very segmented. What websites (especially blogs) do you see that have a good handle on race?
Does that mean this resentment will just always be with us? Most Tea Partiers (like most Republicans) skew higher income, but they affect a GREAT deal more oppression than the lowest-income Americans who have mostly just tuned out of the political system and are regularly demonized anyway (a la ACORN). It’s hard to believe there’s any material satisfaction that is egalitarian that will really calm these people’s anger.
Indeed. It also has to do with class. On average, immigrants from Korea have more financial resources and formal education, than immigrants from Cambodia, Mexico, etc.
Growing up brown in a suburb I found public schools to be a great place to learn about other cultures white cultures yes but they were alien to me. Hopefully my fellow students learned a little about me.
Anyway home schooled kids them I worry about they have even less interaction with other people than the regular homogenized suburban kids do.
Are there any studies how these kids turn out it seems to me these kids are the Uber White Flighters.
Fascinating points. yes, we MUST re-imagine how we (re) build communities… i support town-square driven, eco-friendly, new-style communities over the sprawling subdivision gated ethos. In line with the New Suburban model, willl Obama’s ambitious infrastructure initiative help communities build charter schools, pre-K centers, national service centers, and other “civic hubs,” the better to boost community interaction and civic engagement? Or just a rut of gated (economically and racially segregated) communities? (especially given the climate and gas crises).
Rich – I have a position that I think the West is actually more prone to violent racism than the South (east of the Mississippi) anymore.
The reason why is that is where Reservations mostly are, and the Sioux are in particular crisis this very moment. As well as that was where the WWII ethnic concentration camps of the Japanese were.
Would you agree/disagree and what did your research tell you if anything about Regional geographies?
Agreed. They claim it’s about “taxes” and “money” but it’s really about the progressive challenge to their values. I agree — all the tax cuts (or public spending on them!) in the world, will ultimately not appease, or “satisfy” them…
Yes, you mentioned support or networks as well. That’s a big factor, too. Minority communities also tend to “circle up the wagons” to protect themselves as well. They tend to be wary of outsiders until trust has been established. It’s highly understandable.
And yet at the same time, this feature has two downsides:
– it manifests itself in Whitopia, excluding others not only because they are strangers but because they look different;
– it can fragment racially similar peoples in a community, causing them to lose access to majority vote which might represent them better.
I attended a political meeting several weeks ago at which a black community member scolded a white community member for running for political office in a 50-50 black-white community, even though the white progressive candidate was a life-long resident. The problem with the black community is that they tend to fragment around the five major churches to which they belong, and they can’t field one candidate which has the support of more than two of the churches. If the white candidate were to drop out, we’d expect to see 5 black candidates with weak support and one stronger conservative white candidate who could sweep the vote. It’s very sad.
My research does not prove that any one region has more bias than the other. The dynamics are just different. There is racial conflict w/ Native Americans, as you point out in the West. But also conflict with Latino immigrants. The South has it’s own dynamics. (Although, in my opinion, race relations are better for blacks and Latinos in the South than in the Northewast). Each region has its own history, successes, and challenges, I found.
Living in the more racially mixed Contra Costa County, CA, but also very close to quite-white Marin County, I’ve had the choice of commuting through each county. Marin’s path to SF is over the Golden Gate Bridge. They had reduced hours for car pooling but charged more for the bridge toll, repaired freeways much more quickly and efficiently (and during off-peak hours), and raised the toll of the connecting Richmond/San Raphael bridge 200%.
It had the desired effect of keeping the mixed Contra Costa residents out of Marin, IMO.
I work in a residential program for troubled teens. For black history month , I wanted to show some of kids , that blacks have made a contribution to our country . I thought this might give these kids something to be proud of . Unfortunately , a search of the history books available , told very little of the blacks throughout history.
We did find a reference to George Washington Carver , but the kids already knew about the ” peanut guy . They had heard of him over and over as if he were the only black ever to have done anything note worthy .
It was sad !
Yes. Rest in peace, Howard Zinn and John Hope Franklin.
Rich, I have a question fielded to me by a reader:
Was politics an issue in the book ? Did the Whitopians vote more Republican than Democratic?
There’s a whole other aspect to home schooling, beside the possibility of their not getting a good education that you’re touching on here. School has become our way of learning to socialize. For people who miss out on that, what are the alternative ways of learning how to deal with other human beings whom you don’t know? Far fewer, I suspect.
Emerson, I didn’t realize that. (I went to grad school in the Bay Area, and know the area.) But your comment shows the very subtle ways that keep us divided. I’m not sure whether your example is more class- or race-driven, but the result is the same.
Dude, February isn’t over yet and you can talk about a Revolutionary War figure:
Crispus Attucks
And E.B. DuBois? Is your google broken? :)
YES! I did a statistical analysis: in 2008, McCain beat Obama in roughly three-fourths of the Whitopian counties. The vast majority lean Republican.
Public education is also one of the earliest touchstones of American culture. It’s maddening to hear the right-wing libertarians rant against public education while promoting charter schools, even though public education has been with us since the Puritans’ arrival.
The lack of investment in public education mirrors the lack of investment in infrastructure — looks like potholes on Michigan state highways in March.
Plus with gas prices high and less jobs in the burbs due to smaller population densities its easier to find jobs near cities.
Its easier to find jobs in well planed suburbs many suburban streets end in in turnarounds because the developers though through traffic meant dark traffic.
I used to deliver newspapers the richer the neighborhood the less organized the streets seemed to be.
Good Organization is efficient long winding roads to nowhere are picturesque and increase real estate values if you don’t have to work.
If you do have to work good luck waiting for a snowplow or for the county to find the right street if a tree is blocking the road.
Fascinating point. I think the public spaces that once socialized young folks — including immigrants — and helped groups to interact (classrooms, public parks, public rec centers) are on the decline — often due to 3 decades of Republican philosophy that sabotages, underfunds, and belittles the public sphere, while giving policy advantages to private development (ahem, real estate corporations)…
Interesting subject to look into sometime.
Yes, I agree. It begs the question: Will we build and nurture this country with the priority of worshipping property values, or HUMAN values? That may sound idealistic — but forget about race for now. A fundamental problem is that we’ve let monetary and property values DETERMINE how this country shakes out, with devastating class-, race-, and environmental consequesences.
It’s especially frustrating is that I have no idea how to work around such attitudes. They’re so deeply ingrained that questioning them is like heresy.
David Duke beat Jesse Jackson in my County growing up. Does a history of racism effect real estate values?
Rich: To what extent do you think Whitopias are either encouraged or discouraged by public policies? The obvious example would be transportation policy, which effectively separates the “car culture” of the outer suburbs from the more mixed modes of inner suburbs and cities. Anything else — especially things you witnessed first hand?
Here, billybugs, you can use this convenient list from Wikipedia:
List of African American inventors and scientists
My personal favorite is Vivien Thomas; many. many children have been saved because of his work.
Deeply ingrained.
I live in “Whitopia”. Coeur d’Alene, ID. Grew up in D.C. spent more than a decade in Las Vegas (spending 2 weeks out of every 6 to Orlando for 5 years of that time). I moved here because after 11 years in the desert, I wanted clean air, trees and water; and this place is BEAUTIFUL and close enough to a major airport to make business travel convenient. Being white here is just exactly like this.
Seriously though. It’s the first place I’ve ever lived that’s overwhelmingly white. What strikes me is the similarities in segregation that occur even within seeming racial homogeneity. The grocery store in the less affluent part of town charges more for food because they know without vehicles, many of the residents can’t go anywhere else. They have a corridor where *everyone* passing through the area is profiled. And guess what? They can pretty much tell who’s from the neighborhood and who is from a “good” place. If you are from a “good” place they wish you good evening, if you aren’t they wish you to step out of the vehicle for a quick search. The well connected still get out of jail in like 15 minutes for domestic violence (“I know his father, and he’s a GOOD man”) despite a state law requiring a 72 hour mandatory hold. Zoning laws are stacked to allow those with the money and the power to keep getting richer and not pay taxes while those without have little opportunity and carry the burdens. The absence of black people doesn’t seem to erase the stratification by class.
IMO, people who are race-obsessed are missing the bigger point. The issue isn’t really race, it’s class and poverty. I think Colin Powell put it best when he observed that these dynamics disproportionately effect minorities. Being white doesn’t mean you get treated well. People from the “ghetto” or “trailer park” or whatever disparaging term is used for “not one of the proper class” are treated like crap no matter what race they are.
Indeed. I moved to my town because of the diversity of mainly black, white and asian. The breakdown is 19%, 28% and 43%. Even here, there has been some degree of “white flight” in the last decade. Before Bush it was pretty evenly split three ways.
Thanks for the Q, Michelle. I believe:
Transportation policy
Zoning policy (residential and commercial)
Tourism/Chamber of Commerce policy (how/where/and who those institutions recruit into white communities)
Environmental policy (favoring cars/gated development over walkable town-friendly development)
Law/Labor policy (how immigrants — often Latinos — are welcomed or harassed, etc)
Common-sense policy (how residents treat other Americans as human beings)
Rich, do you have another writing project in the works? And is there any follow-up to Whitopia, either in terms of writing or projects for the greater good as a result of Searching for Whitopia?
And is Demos.org, the non-partisan public policy research and advocacy organization with which you are associated, working on any projects as a follow-up to your field research?
One fascinating Wall Street Journal article I came across talks about white flight — from Asian-Americans — in California.
The real estate kings of my old Whitopia would argue for property values. The town of Harvard Illinois got a Motorola plant Harvard only zoned homes for the Motorola executives they did not want low class largely white workers moving to their town.
So twice a day traffic in my county would grind to a halt as workers drove in or left work.
Harvard thought they would get rich off the high end realestate. It turns out very few executives wanted to live in Harvard they wanted nightclubs, and Mexican or Thai food.
The plant was shut down soon I guess nobody Harvard wanted to live there would live there and everyone who wanted to live there but couldn’t was sick of twice daily traffic jams to get to work.
Yes. As a direct result, I’m now working on a project about “patriot” Americans — people Sarah Palin said who live in the “real America” versus “post-Americans.” The project is about America coping in a global world.
I’ve written similar comments in the past at FDL, to mixed reviews. What is also true, though, is that if you’re part of a minority, whether it’s an ethnic, religious, or other type of minority, people just have more reasons to treat you like crap.
Also, as a result of the book, I’m writing more about Class.
Ain’t that the truth.
Akin to some of the questions posted on the Lake, I’m developing strategies and policies that can help counter right-wing forces that prefer this country divided.
I think if the experience with Boeing out here is any indication, the folks who were most sick of the traffic jams were the folks who ran the plant. Traffic problems create many costs, not the least of which is more unreliable shipping.
Rumor had it Harvard and the Real Estate developers lost a ton of money they bought stuff in anticipation they were both going to get rich and when the home sales never came in they were in financial trouble.
As we come to the end of this great Book Salon,
Rich, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us discussing your new book and Whitopia.
Rayne, Thank you for Hosting this great Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t bought Rich’s book yet, here is a link.
Thanks all.
Thank you for pointing this out! When I assert that subtle and not-so-subtle practices keep this country segregated, some conservatives act like I’m crazy or like I have a “chip” on my shoulder. But indeed, examples like this abound!
Thanks for coming by Rich! This was a great thread.
Thank you, Bev.
Thanks, Rayne.
Thanks, everyone for such great questions, and insightful comments.
Thank you, thank you.
Imagine UPS trucks trying to deliver parts to the furthest least plowed bit of the county Motorola most days was the whole truck to Harvard. Christmas is a very busy time for them.
Nice Talking to you when is your next book coming out?
Wow, the time just flew by!
No pressure, but I’ll be watching for your next book!
Thanks so much, Rich, was great to chat here with you.
And thanks to all our community members and readers for participating!
masaccio is upstairs!
Baby Steps on Foreclosures
I think of it as a warning. The two things that we seem to have more of than we did a couple of decades ago are fear and anger, and it’s not exclusively confined to one part of the political spectrum.
Great to chat with you, Rayne!
Thank you for stopping by and chatting.
Not sure, Things. Ideally in 2012.
Thanks, Cujo. I appreciate your comments and took quite a bit away from them.
Now that the trend for manufacturing is “just in time” this is especially problematic. As someone once wrote, many times it becomes “just too late”. Stopping a plant because you’re out of something isn’t something its managers are inclined to do.
Thank you Rich and Rayne.
Thanks, Kelly, for some great comments.
That’s the point of home schooling, private “Christian schools,” etc. So there won’t be any socializing outside one’s “own kind.”
Gentrification by income is a planning tool. Using infrastructure cost like unaffordable water and sewer is another gentrification tool. Approving only MacMansions is another planning tool to discriminate economically. Over 95% of new housing the last decade has been affordable to households earning $100,000.00 that is twice the medium family income here. I live in a pocket of moderate affordability but developers want all that to go.
Coming in after the author has left, unfortunately, but here is a local article affirming the lack of understanding between one group and another – in this case, a white developer and an historic African-American neighborhood, not to mention the City Council person (also African-American) who actually lives in that neighborhood, which the developer thinks ony has value if everything currently existing is torn down and replaced by his mixed-use development.
[my italics added]
Read the whole column; it’s hilarious in a really pathetic, infuriating way. And it illustrates many points made today nicely.
D’oh – forgot the link – and can’t seem to add it on edit:
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/columnists/scott_stroud/East_Side_plans_need_sensitivity.html
Great thread, thanks to all, especially Bev, Rayne, and Rich.
Sorry I missed the live thread…
I have always lived in Whitopia. My ancestors came from Ireland and fled the famine and persecution. My parents grew up in white suburbs of Detroit. I know the Depression is what brought them to Detroit. Many of my relatives are very bigoted against African Americans, unfortunately.
I grew up in a very white neighborhood in the suburbs of NYC. My immediate neighborhood had one black family. I didn’t really think anything of it, and we all played with the boy our age, I don’t remember anyone not wanting to just because he was black, but I know there was some talk amongst the parents…. I didn’t get it. We also had one mixed race family, which during the 60′s was almost unheard of. Interesting that they were Dutch, originally.
I grew up listening to people like Stevie Wonder and all the great folk singers from the 60′s singing about peace, love and understanding and I bought into all of it. I hope I have lived it.
I ended up bringing up my kids in a very small town in Wisconsin – job transfer took us there – naturally a very white area – I fell in love the with the Norman Rockwell look of the town and I almost didn’t go through with it because it was so white. I was concerned that my kids wouldn’t grow up with enough diversity. Interestingly enough, my sons’ two best friends were of mixed race – one half African-American and the other half Mexican.
They are now both living in the Bed-Sty neighborhood of Brooklyn and dating girls of Asian decent – one Chinese and one Japanese.