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House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer said Tuesday that he left a meeting at the White House with President Obama and congressional leaders earlier in the day “hopeful” that Republican leaders are willing to work on a bipartisan jobs bill.
[...]
Senate Republican Whip Jon Kyl of Arizona predicted the chamber will eventually pass the measure, though he said “there is no way it can be acted on this week” because the plan is “not quite yet worked out.”
Kyl also said Democrats shouldn’t advertise the package as jobs legislation because it’s just “extending a bunch of tax policy and related items that we need to do.”
Ho-hum.
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Depressingly awesome analysis…
But this time will be different.
Yes Rahmbama, you are correct. From the shameless get out of jail free card you gave to lawbreaking, spying telecomms, to the strings free trillion dollar rewards to the very people who brought the world to the brink of financial collapse, to the corporate gift that is the “goal you were always shooting for” Senate health insurance bailout, er I mean Senate health care reform.
The best decision movement conservatives ever made was to infiltrate the Democratic Party through the DLC with DLC pukes like Bill Clinton and Barack Obama.
I really can’t rationalize remaining a registered Democrat any longer…
This is sure great red meat for die hard Dems and progressives but I think it is safe to say that many Americans already know what Washington is filled with hypocrites. Why do you think there is such a large anti-incumbent sentiment growing across the country? The GOP is not immune but right now they are the minority party.
What are independent voters who are fed up with federal spending that has done little to decrease unemployment supposed to do? Run back into the Democrat Party fold where they want to spend EVEN MORE money that we do not have?
And how many viewers does Maddow have?
Is MSNBC leading the way forward for Dems and the progressive movement? Good luck with that.
The bailouts were NOT good for business! The bailouts have enabled failed business models to be propped up by the federal government with TAXPAYER $$.
Saving GM at the behest of the unions is NOT good for business! Bailing out AIG and big banks, protecting them from the consequences of their irresponsible actions because they are ‘too big too fail’ is NOT good for business.
What we have here is crony capitalism, a protectuon racket where the federal government is trying to rig the free-market system in favor of it’s political supporters to maintain and further consolidate money and power in the DC/Wall Street corridor.
The Noonster just explained that Obama had “queered” the first year!
Why don’t we give more money to rich people to stimulate the economy? And we need to make a Jobs Bill that is more bi-partisan, If we are nice to Joe Lieberman and Ben Nelson, then they will certainly help. Those retards on the left are totally responsible for every bad thing.
If Obama is as Wimpy and Lazy as he was with Health Care, then I am certain of what jobs we will get. Snow Jobs.
would this be the jobs bill that includes an extension of the patriot act?
Did anyone else catch the big glaring error in that news story?
Jon Kyle is the REAL “Leader of the House.” Steny Hoyer just does what he says.
Indie is to “independent” as Karl Rove is to bipartisan.
That was an odd statement. She also claimed the same people that ran the first years of the iraq war would have been put in charge of your health care.
Not to worry. Maddow’s faith in Obama is still abiding. She knows the President will soon expose the Evil Republicans for what they are and save the day.
Or, as Paul Krugman put it:
President Barack Obama said he doesn’t “begrudge” the $17 million bonus awarded to JPMorgan Chase & Co. Chief Executive Officer Jamie Dimon or the $9 million issued to Goldman Sachs Group Inc. CEO Lloyd Blankfein, noting that some athletes take home more pay.
The president, speaking in an interview, said in response to a question that while $17 million is “an extraordinary amount of money” for Main Street, “there are some baseball players who are making more than that and don’t get to the World Series either, so I’m shocked by that as well.”
“I know both those guys; they are very savvy businessmen,” Obama said in the interview yesterday in the Oval Office with Bloomberg BusinessWeek, which will appear on newsstands Friday. “I, like most of the American people, don’t begrudge people success or wealth. That is part of the free- market system.”
So, now all she has to do is point out how exactly Obama and Emanuel differ from the Republicans when it comes to Wall Street. That and explain how baseball players, like their Wall Street contemporaries, were equally responsible for imploding the economy and then running to the treasury department for trillions of dollars in taxpayer “assistance”.
Paul Krugman:
“We’re doomed.”
Well, some of us more than others, right?
Yea, that was equally stupid and here delivery is like fingernails on the chalkboard!
here’s a real example of bipartisanship: kucinich’s amendment in committee to the house health insurance reform bill to permit states to experiment with single payer. passed in committee with progressive and republican support and then was stripped out of the bill by house leadership who did not even permit a vote on the house floor.
Under Obama the lobbyists are enjoying and banner year and the payrolls of government employees in growing. Taking money out of the private sector in the form of government spending does NOT create a sustainable job market.
Innovation, freedom to choose to risk, to fail or to succeed is the engine that creates jobs and drives the ecomomy. Creating goods and services that best serve the needs and demands consumers are at the heart of our ecomonic prosperity.
How much innovation has been or will be stymied by the federal government? How much financial protection will the government offer to favored, yet failing businesses and institutions?
Government is NOT always the answer.
Mornin’, BT, pups
Selise – yep, that would be the one. Sheesh. And the Rethugs complain about not having time to read large bills. Remember the Patriot Act, assholes?
i’ve come to the point where i almost don’t care if congress has time to read the bills — all i want is for US to have time to read the bills and raise holy hell where necessary.
Got any solutions other than boiler plate libertarian talking points? I believe we’ve had this discussion about specificity before. Pissin’ and moanin’ is fine as long as solutions follow close behind.
Seems we’re actually the only ones reading the bills.
Attempting to dismiss me does not invalidate my arguments. If big government and higher taxation, if demonization of opponents and protection of cronies is the progressive, Democratic Party answer to every problem, independent voters will not jump on that bandwagon.
Who spilled the troll chow all over the floor?
my thanks to dday for reading the jobs bill. should have included a linkie, so here it is now with a bit of a quote. from tuesday: Jobs Bill To Be Paired With Lowering Of Estate Tax?
Morning All…still very cold here. A little sleet yesterday. Big stories about Charlie Wilson.
So, interested above…Bush has a comeback….What was his 1st act? Guess
I forgot.
You are dismissed.
From the St Petersburg Times this morning
[snip]
Count me in.
Meanwhile, the terrormonger in chief aka Chee-knee is preparing for his closeup Sunday on This Week. That oughta be awesome. Which stenographer is scheduled to do the bj?
Why don’t you tell us exactly what the government should and should not do.
You are full of baloney. Neo-cons control our disaster capitalistic economy. Neo-cons control the Oil Wars. You wingnuts love your Long Wars against the Scary Jihadists but you do not want to pay the taxes for the Wars. These wars were started by international banksters because the rich always profit from wars. The rest of us and our children will pay for them.
Let me explain Democracy 101 to you. The “government” is the people, but elections put in different people and policies. The Wingnuts stole the election in 2001. They got to carry out policies of War, Torture, Psyops and False Flag Ops.
Progressives helped elect that Socialist, Kenyan, Muslim in 2008. But so far we got nothing. The Bushie Moles are still controlling things in the government mostly. Obviously if Progressives and Futurists had a role in government, they could hardly have done worse than neo-cons.
I am not going to be pulled into a wonky discussion. I simply do not have the expertise. I know what I believe.
Ooooh. Can I borrow that line the next time my supervisor calls me and launches into a whack job bullying rant? Like last night. Oh, please?
I love it and thanks.
Many solution do not involve action being taken by the federal government. Cutting spending, reforming entitlements, shrinking government and promoting, not protecting risk taking in the free-market would be a refreshing place to start.
No doubt, all of my suggestions will be met with derision.
Education is the first place to start. IMO we do not need a federal department of education. We have been expanding the federal government’s role and increasing funding for public education for decades, yet problems remain. Reform is consistently blocked by the Democrats and the teacher’s unions. The monopoly is not working. We need to introduce more local control, choice and competition into the system.
Energy is another area. Federal regulations and environmental activists stifle the innovative opportunities in nuclear energy, clean coal and exploration of domestic oil and natural gas. I submit that we can do this responsibly. Why? Because the public will demand nothing less.
I have expressed these opinions to you before but you have not engaged me in debate.
Please don’t buy into that Socialist/Muslim nonsense. At least bow to the truth.
Again, an intelligent rebuttal from someone who clearly wants to keep independent voters moving towards the progressive agenda.
Did I leave out the /s. I thought we had a possible “Birther” in the audience, and I love to tease those folks. I should have said Lefty, Pinko, Indonesian, Raghead Commie.
Morning Bev. It’s not too bad here, but I just received more snOMG2010 photos from my girl in DC. Pix of her doing snow angels. Photo of their little pug shows him looking rather p’o'd. :)
I’m not sure I understand your premise.
Are you saying that noting, as an example, that the military is assassinating innocents in order to remote a perceived threat is not worthy of discussion unless one already knows how to stop the policy? Or that when Bloomberg and offers yet another redundant story about Obama’s free-market advocacy that it should be ignored unless you already know how to make sure that he doesn’t say that again?
As for having solutions follow close behind that suggests a level of power and influence that I feel quite certain no one commenting here actually embodies. Or perhaps you mean recommendations.
Move where you want, no one cares.
why and how do you think cutting spending will help? (no surprise, i suppose, that i disagree?)
Because the public will demand nothing less.
Oh, please. The public is too busy watching how Ellen does instead of Paula.
Socialist, Kenyan, Muslim????? Obama must be the ‘ONE’. Don’t take your eyes off the enemy of humankind…unregulated corporations.
O Dear, Thanks….we’re on the same side of the Birther stupidity.
Demi, Hey….the DC scene is unbelievable…and more coming. We are really wet & cold here (TX). It is really getting old. There is a marathon race on Sunday; goes all over/ties up the city. They may have a very cold outing.
i’ll give it a go if we stick to the simple stuff.
You don’t debate, you parrot talking points. Can you tell me, for example, exactly what the Dept of Education is supposed to do? I’m not talking about whether or not it performs its tasks in an acceptable manner but what is it designed to accomplish.
“[I]nnovative opportunities in nuclear energy,…” Would those include finding a means of nuclear waste storage acceptable to the general puplic?
This is a wonky site. If you’re not knowledgeable enough to discuss the nitty gritty details of issues you’re wasting my time.
(i thought the forecast for dc was clear for a few days?)
but i just looked up the dallas weather (where i used to live). yikes!:
i seem to remember the daffodils blossoming during the last third of feb.
Yea, we need the knuckle draggin state of Georgia to have free run over education.
OT: Our local paper endorsed Bailey-Hutchison in the TX Guv race rather than eternal, current Guv Big Hair. Actually, just in Repb. primary, I think.
You want to argue semantics, fine. I’ll change “solutions” to “ideas” or “recommendations.” Is that better?
Me too. Got sucked into one yesterday about higher education, but after a couple of patient back and forths, he responded with a gentle, sorry and I’ll take the hint. It’s always satisfying when that happens.
I know you libertarians are very fond of free markets and have much more faith in corporations than in any kind of governing. Well, here’s the problem; the free market isn’t free. The minute a corporation is able to capitalize on an innovation it scrambles to protect it. This actually strangles innovation. I know a lot of computer geeks who will tell you how Microsoft killed or stole, more or less, many innovations in computer technology. That’s just one example. In the pharmaceutical industry most new drugs are actually created through research performed at universities and publicly funded. We just give the patents to drug companies because of laws Congress passed in the ’80′s. A huge chunk of the technology we use today exists because of the space program, so called ‘cast-off technology’. And of course the space program has been funded by the taxpayer, at least so far. While government isn’t always the answer, corporations are not some magical alternative.
I was living in Dallas several years ago when there was an April snow/freeze…you can imagine. But Easter in that area is always unpredictable…can be anything.
ROFL, exactly!
“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”
- Albert Einstein
Forget the Republicans, Democrats were given a clear majority for a very good reason.
Off to swim in the great capitalist cesspool. No trolls there.
US KIA Irak: 4,375
US KIA Afghanistan: 986
Iraki and Afghan casualties: estimates vary to over 1.5M
US MBS 2010: 5,208 and counting
Be good to yourselves, and all other living things.
Namaste
Cute headline from [another blog]: Why Let The Truth Ruin A Good Smear?
And they are not persons either, but they have already gained eternal life.
Oops! My bad. That was actually a quote from an earlier comment.
New post up top…
oops. my bad too. lol, more caffeine all around!
A long time ago, a friend had been sprouting vegetable seeds, but had planted them in the ground a few days before a late late freeze. Lost them all. She took it on the chin and just started over.
I think there might be a lesson there. Metaphorically speaking.
i don’t remember having several inches of snow in dallas except for one thanksgiving weekend.
it’s probably selective memory loss as i sit here in MA, with about a foot of snow on the ground, staring at the gold finches at my feeder trying to see some hint of spring plumage (i don’t).
I saw that comment when it was originally made and almost fell outa my chair.
you are way more on the ball than i am this morning.
gotta go. later all…..
I’m sorry Frank but I do not accept any of your assertions.
Money, power and greed corrupt across traditional party lines. We have a system that is entrenched with career politicians and ‘too big too fail’ corporations and institutions that are usurping our individual liberty and economic freedom by stealing taxpayer dollars to protect themselves from their own greed and irresponsibility. The government is complicit in this theft. The government BACKED the risky securities with the FULL FAITH and CREDIT of the US government. We let them do that when we created Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. When so many started living beyond their means.
As WE so, so we shall reap.
We need a new crop of public servants who will listen to their constituents and respond to their needs. And that need is to reduce the size and scope of the federal government. To limit the spending and limit the power and influence wielded in Washington.
Did we really need to bailout GM? What would have happened if we had let if fail?
As to your attack on Obama. Progressives nominated a man who rose to prominence by telling people what they wanted to hear. He is everything to everyone and now he is politically crippled by his own lack of conviction. He is a product of the left to be sure, but I am sure he sees himself as moderate and pragmatic compared to the extreme leftist ideologues he has lived among his entire life. He is not a leader, but a go along, get along guy who was able to glide with ease through the halls of academia, hook up with a corrupt machine in Chicago to charm and impress the powers that be and sell the electorate on a vague yet intoxicating whiff of ‘hope’ and ‘change.’
As WE so, so we shall reap.
Cutting spending will allow more money to flow into the private sector. The private sector creates jobs.
sow what?
As we sew, so shall we rip.
how exactly do you think that happens?
* gov deficit spending adds to private sector financial assets.
* gov spending, if invested in the future (human, tech, environment, infrastructure), provides the necessary business environment for economic success.
#63
as we “sow” meaning to plant seeds
i can’t help myself. the possibility of a real debate will almost always suck me in.
So, SO?
It’s OK, but nothing gets “through” anyhow, selise.
I figure its a form of comic, cosmic “good grief!”
Just one of those kindda things.
;~DW
Your analysis is almost correct. If you substitute for “WE”, “International Banksters, Bilderbergers and Goldman Sachs”, then what you say is correct. During the last eight, or nine years, we the people have been shut out of our government.
Plus, you should get rid of the boring labels, “moderate”, “left” and even “progressive” are all becoming uninformative cliches. This website expects facts and linkies rather than sermons.
Historically, a great deal of innovation has been driven by government spending. Government funding for ongoing research at US Universities, NASA…. and where do you think the technology behind the internet came from?
In my mind it’s not about big government or small government. It’s about good governance vs bad governance.
And it’s not about high taxes vs low taxes. It’s about progressive taxes, ones that curb the temptation for corruption near the top of the food chain.
Maybe the temptation for our bankers to lie, cheat and steal would be noticably tempered by a top tax bracket of 75% for people in the million dollar payscale range.
Maybe people at the top would think twice about throwing so much money into DC politics if the after tax return on thier political investment was far more meager.
I am SO sick and tired of this libertarian crap. However weak, corrupt, or –fill-in-the-blank — our government is, it remains THE ONLY entity capable of standing up for you, an individual American, in the face of giant entities — read large powerful corporations or again, fill-in-the-blank wealthy organizations — that could crush you or I or any other individual on a whim. There is only one alternative — work to make your government better. Stop trying to shrink, or destroy, the only ally you truly have…
#67
yes, selise. Eisenhower’s interstate highways are proof of appropriate fed spending. FDR’s national parks projects.
JFK’s space program.
Any physical, tangible work performed by humans gives money true value.
Unfortunatly, people do not understand that “taxcuts” are intended to destroy government. If they were a solution, we could give everyone a million dollar deduction and close the doors on gov’t.
karen
72 through 74. Hat trick. Well said.
Are you serious? You should embrace libertarian ideals. And tell me why is MORE government the answer at this place and time in our history? Am I best served by a government that aids and abets, even rewards failure? Am I best served by a government that attempts to control and regulate fairness, when inherently I know that LIFE is not fair. I exist by the grace of God, not by the grace of government, or by the good intentions of others.
Shrinking the Washington/Wall Street axis of power will harm me how, exactly?
i think part of my problem is that i know people can and sometimes do change their minds. even me.
#74
excellent! Thank you!
You are living in the past. The highway system grew out of a need to create roads for cars to drive on. The cars purchased by wealthy Americans who wanted a better faster way to move around. Cars created by the innovative entrepreneurial spirit of the American people.
The space program was a government initiative that also was able to capture the imagination and ambition of this nation to be ‘the best’.
Supporting government for it own sake, or to look to government to provide FOR me does not make me more creative, innovative or ambitious. It is an impediment to my growth.
Tax cuts do NOT destroy government, they simply limit the amount of capital it is allowed to confiscate from the private sector and from individuals.
Why is the federal government worthy of my money? What policies promote my economic freedom and the freedom of other individuals to create, innovate and succeed?
Yes.
But … that requires an open mind AND a closed mouth (at least part of the time so that one can HEAR what others are saying, and perhaps, even coming to understand WHY such things are being said).
As you know, I share AND appreciate your sentiments, however some people just aren’t ready to actually engage …
DW
great list. and your def of the value of money is very close to the one i’ve been using: the productive capability of the economy.
but i do disagree a bit about taxes. imo not all taxes are created equal. some i like, some i hate. for example, i don’t like payroll taxes (regressive, incentives bad) but i would like to see a carbon tax and a bigger capital gains tax (at least as big, preferably bigger than labor income tax).
As libertarians you guys talk a good game, but every one of you, that I know, voted for W in ’04. Civil liberty was just not as important as lower taxes. For lower taxes you guys would sell every other principle down the river.
i’ve almost never changed anyone’s mind in the middle of a debate, including my own mind. that’s probably asking too much. but ideas have a way of sticking and making us think about them later. at least that is my working hypothesis — because i have seen people change. and big changes take time.
Ultimately, for most libertarians, MONEY is all that matters, specifically, what they regard as THEIR money.
They are uninterested in social justice, as they believe it does not and cannot exist.
They also believe that human beings are, at best, weak, and otherwise clawing, grasping savages …
They also believe there is not enough to “go around”, so they want to make damn certain to get “theirs”.
After all, “life ain’t fair” and “there ain’t enough to share”.
DW
Agreed.
@Diarist John Stuart was correct, online bloggers tend to hyperbole in their description of things. How is what Madow did with her reporting DEVASTATING? Insightful … yeah, tough rebuke … maybe. DEVASTATING?hardly!
Enough of the hyperbole already.
Yeah and while I am at it about things that pisses me off about the writing styles of online reporters and bloggers. The use of FAIL as a noun as in BEST FAILS of 2009 (Huffington Post). For fucks sakes the correct word is FAILURE. FAIL is a freaking VERB not a noun. Seriously!
Get off my lawn!
I agree with much of what you say. Good government IMO is government that stimulates and harnesses the creative, innovative, competitve spirit of the American individual.
Do you truly believe that you can control temptation through taxation? Many Americans have become wealthy and successful through honest effort and hard work. Punitive taxation is not just. Effective regulation and enforcement of the laws is what is required.
Our government was complicit in our current economic fall.
Wow, that’s a whole lot of generalization.
I for one, while leaning libertarian, do not share your characterization.
Liberty is the freedom to pursue your passions in an attempt to find happiness here on Earth. Those who do so in a responsible, moral way should have nothing to fear from their God, their fellow man or the law.
Can a wealthy individual be good? Yes! Are they always good? No!
Such is the struggle of man.
Thank you for an explanation of the libertarians — I kept thinking I could agree with some of their “talking points,” but felt there was a flaw in them.
karen
Well tell me, Indie, which of those characterizations do you not claim for your own?
You’ve been here for a while … but we’ve no sense of your sensibilities … only your cant.
DW
Frankly, I believe that the power of social justice exists resides within the morality of its individual citizens. Government cannot dictate or engineer morality. Advances in social justice are the product of a moral authority imposed upon the government not imposed BY the government.
As to the issue of taxes. I simply believe that I am a better steward of my money than the federal government. With my ‘disposable’ income, I have the opportunity to contribute to society as a whole in a way that I feel would facilitate social justice. With the money not confiscated by the government I can employ many individuals to help me meet my wants and needs.
‘talking points’? I am simply speaking for myself.
I end up arguing with libertarians all the time on economics because there are significant points of disagreement in that area.
However, I would like to balance the dialog by pointing out that there are some area’s vital to our Republic where I would substantially agree with libertarians. To be specific:
- Neocons are the worst internal enemy our nation has. Some call themselves D’s, other’s R’s… doesn’t matter, they are the enemy.
- End the wars, bring the troops home.
- Roll back our extensive collection of overseas military bases.
- Curb the excesses of our police state nuttiness at home.
- The bank bailouts are entirely corrupt and never should have occured.
- There is too much misplaced power currently in the FED. We probably differ on a complete solution but greater Congressional oversite would be an agreeable step in fixing things.
- Disapproval of Bernanke, Geithner…
And yes, I would vote for Ron Paul if the alternative was a neocon or corporatist Democrat. However, men like Grayson and Kucinich would be my strong preference.
and just where will your plantation be located, sir?
Are you doing ANY listening, Indie, or just “speaking”?
THAT is the question the rest of us would appreciate an answer to.
Unless you would rather just let your “behavior” do all the “talking”.
We don’t get a sense of your humanity from your palaver.
One assumes it is there, but ALL of your “speaking” does not confirm this assumption.
What do you think about that?
Look, right now I feel that the federal government is an out of control, self-serving behemoth that is ill equipped to meet many of the needs of the the people.
It should be reformed. The surest way to do that is to limit the amount of money the government has to spend. Anyone in business when faced with an inferior product must change and adapt to the market or risk going out of business. Why do they go out of business? Because they do NOT have the MONEY to stay in business. The same basic law of economics should be applied to the government. Why should I keep handing over my money for a faulty product?
Yesterday Rachel Maddow, Ed Shultz, Chris Matthews and Dylan Radigan all bent over for their corporate masters at MSNBC/General Electric.
It was totally orchestrated that each talking head on each one of their show, slandered anyone who does not bow at the thrown of Global warming. You know the deal: pay you carbon taxes to the Bear Man Pig (Al Gore) and his derivative Wall Street banker buddies.
Junk science, fraudulent weather data, coercive and damming emails that were revealed last month as to the Hoax that global warming is. Copenhagen was a total disaster because the public now understands that the carbon tax is the bankers new scam to enslave us even more.
Don’t get me wrong, Rachel, Ed, Chris and Dylan are trying their best, but they have to comply with their bosses agenda. General Electric is the largest wind mill, turbine, electric battery, solar cell, military jet engine manufacturer in the world. Rachel, Ed, Chris and Dylan know were their bread is buttered, so they may appear to be progressive Dems, but when pressured they morph into the corporatis Democrats which are just as bad as corporatis Republicans. You know, war is OK, their is a terrorist behind every airport corner, Wall Street rules, Israel can do no wrong and no Medicare for all. Please, less Rachel Maddow and more Alex Jones.
Oh please. Employing people and contributing to private charity is somehow tantamount to slavery in your eyes? You do your arguments damage when you resort to such comments.
What do you want to know? I will be happy to respond to a specific question.
Go for it.
Elevate those who you think adequately espouse your ideas and have the track record to back up their words with action.
I agree with much of what you have to say but I think trying to reform the system from the inside, with incumbents like Paul, Grayson and Kucinich is not possible. They may be bridges to the next generation of public servants but they have too much baggage, too many whacked out ideas and too many divisive statements to be acceptable to the mainstream.
Ron Paul is a racist.
Indie, the reason the government is corrupt is because of MONEY, and not the money collected for taxes, BUT the big MONEY than has bought the government.
You and I, even together, and all the other “little people”, those “too small to matter”, cannot “match” the Big Boyz Bucks …
You are enthralled with capitalism, I am not.
You believe money (your money) is the issue, while I am convinced a society that creates no actual wealth (and that ONLY comes from what people do with “resources” … not from clever manipulation and the destruction of the manufacturing base, for example) is in a very bad way.
Everyone has lost sight of the fact that the “people” are the only legitimate “government”.
But that can be true only if people are concerned about the larger agreed upon principles, justice, equality before the law, and the essential need for truth and transparency, in all human dealings, regardless of those things that some people believe are important … like the “color” of one’s skin or which Gawd someone believes in.
For example, I know a number of self-described Libertarians, who are gay.
One would imagine that their life experience MIGHT make them somewhat sensitive to the plight of others, whatever that “plight’ might be.
Yet it is not so, they wish to have full civil rights, as indeed and in fact, they should, but seem to be deaf and blind when it comes to others.
I find it hard to understand this behavior as anything less than “selfish”.
And these chaps, of whom I am thinking, do not regard themselves as Randian.
Are you a follower of Ayn Rand?
Apart from your money, (which the bad government is “confiscating”) and how you, personally are “doing”, what are your larger societal concerns?
You do share the world with the rest of us.
Where is our common ground, if not in our humanity and our collective plight (assuming you agree that such a “thing” exists)?
As regards a “solution”, is it your “position” that until we all agree with you, there is none (you rugged individualist, you)?
Or are we all gonna have to work out something that involves MUTUAL listening and learning?
DW
Yes, I do believe temptation can often be curbed by limiting extreme excesses. I don’t really care if someone that makes twice as much as me pays the exact same tax rate as me. But a Citibank trader making $100 million for doing god knows what… tax the hell out of that crap.
Would a high progressive tax rate for people with million dollar incomes be a cure all that prevented all corruption? No of course not. It would merely keep it within manageable limits.
As for what should even be taxed, I’d say hard work should be taxed the least. Consumption should be taxed moderately. And money you make in your sleep (investment income, speculation etc..) should be taxed the highest.
Anyway, I’d point out that we once had a very strong progressive economic system which for 30 years built us up into an economic powerhouse the likes of which the world had never seen. Then of course they shot JFK, took us into Vietnam and started slicing away the New Deal bit by bit. Every piece of the New Deal which they remove has made the country worse. Starting with the end of Bretton Woods and more recently the over turning of Glass Steagle.
Yes, I agree we have bad governance today. Ultimately I blame Harry Truman’s flawed creation of the CIA. It’s pretty clear that elements of the CIA were responsible for what happened to JFK. And it was all down hill from there.
Well, the simple fact of the matter is this; CO2 absorbs heat. It just does. We are releasing huge amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere. The simple logic of it is inescapable.
I was referring to your independent, stand alone, self-sufficiency ‘argument.’ Washington and Jefferson had plantations which gave them the independence you envision but fought for a representative government anyway.
The area where I completely agree with Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich is their fight for transparency in the Federal Reserve at a minimum. Get rid of the fed and move our currency to the treasury dept as a number of times in past would be my preference.
karen
Well, Indie, I have asked you questions, as you will see @ 103.
But I have asked you specific questions in the past which you have either ignored or used merely to launch into another bout of “speaking”.
DW
Prejudice and ignorance are the two areas of concern for me. Neither however can be eradicated through policies imposed by a government, no matter how well intentioned.
Man must always seek to explore, question and create. The world is constantly changing and evolving and future generations must be able to adapt and innovate in order for mankind to survive. Scientific and technological innovation and advancement will drive societies forward and we must be open to exploring and using all of our resources morally and responsibly.
What good comes from limiting choice and competition in education? What harm would choice and competition do to the people who work and live outside of the federal Department of Education? What good comes from demanding that ‘consensus’ is truth?
Prejudice can only be confronted and eradicated on an individual basis. People inherently know right from wrong unless they are sociopaths and if individuals choose to stand by and watch it happen they are complicit in the propagation of that injustice. We all have an individual responsibility to our fellow man that will ultimately result in a collective will of the people.
Thanks for engaging. So sorry but work awaits. We will have to continue this later.
Respectfully,
Indie
Prejudice is “learned”, Indie.
As is hate.
Looking, also respectfully, forward to further, actual, engagement.
DW
You are such a [edited by mod]-as are all neo-conservatives. You ignored my point that the deficits are due to genocidal wars. The rich refuse to pay for the wars they profit from. You are not against big government and in fact you want corporate government. YOU PEOPLE worship corporations. Obviously they are superior to human beings and live forever, so perhaps they are gods.
You do not oppose big government. You just oppose liberal government, where you decide the meaning of liberal. We have heard enough. You have nothing to contribute.
One notes that the mods are busy, today.
We’ve got to raise the idea of a modicum of self-restraint.
If only to give those behind the curtain a break.
Respect.
A seven letter word.
And tolerance.
A word of nine letters …
Might it all lead to “understanding”?
Once again, a post from someone behind the “scenes” might be timely.
Just as a reminder and a challenge to better communication skills and enhanced civility.
DW
And if Exxon decided that there is significant oil under your house, or if whoever-you-work-for decided that you were too old, or the wrong gender, or just-too-ugly to continue working, you would run to who, exactly, for help? Oops, sorry that department has been closed by well-meaning libertarians. You’re on your own…the god of ME simply doesnt care.
BT, thanks for this post.
I am waiting for Rachel or KO to start a “Party of No” nightly tracking which pretty much does what Rachel just did here by walking out the obstructionism.
It needs to be hammered upon every day.
I appreciate whatever ideology you are espousing and I would like to point out that had we not forked our all of that money, we would be talking about anarchy – not monetary policy.
“Just as a reminder and a challenge to better communication skills and enhanced civility.”
That is so civil. I wish I could talk to Rachel. The word ‘hypocrite’ has lost most of its punch. There is no punch because it is so common and evasive. We are talking about lying gas-bags who are concerned only with keeping that contribution feedbag full.
To be chiefly concerned with the ‘civility’ of political discourse is a cop out. It is as fruitful as throwing up your hands and saying, “They’re all crooks. Doesn’t matter which party.”
I have always taken that “they’re all” statement as an indication of either (1) I’m tired of talking about this with you or (2) I don’t have any idea what you are talking about.
Have at it, folks.
If what you are thinking does not stir up some emotion, is it worth thinking about?
It seems you are making a statement in which you are ignorant of the facts. The fact is between Keith and Rachel they have taken on these idiot REP and these bought fake teabagger including Palin whom are trying to sell her as a candidate for President. By the way given the things that were said at there conference sounds like bunch of WHITE RACIST TO ME.Let me be clear none of you on this BLOG has done what RACHEL OR KEITH HAS DONE IN SAYING WHAT HAD TO BE SAID about the teabagger OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER. By the way unless you are prepared or ready to do what they have done shut up. In other words we are in a fight and the facts and the truth is one of many weapons we must use in order to defeat our enemies.
That’s only sorta true. If we did nothing at all then yes… anarchy.
But as former regulators such as William Black and notable economists such as James Galbraith pointed out at the time… there were better ways to handle the problem.
Wipe out the shareholders, give the bond holders a haircut, put the institution into a pass thru recievership process that replaces top management, clean it up (yes taxpayers would be on the hook here) and then send it back out into the public realm.
And oh yeah, throw away ficticous debts such as AIG’s credit default swaps. AIG’s CDS’s had no credible asset backing thus they were fakes… you don’t bail that out. Sure that’d leave banks short but you’d handle that directly when cleaning up the banks.
Emotion is one thing, but ad hominen attacks are destructive to discourse.
Perhaps I misunderstand you?
My comment was directed toward a “characterization” which the mods removed.
How that “characterization” added anything of merit or even “perspective” to the discussion eludes me.
If you imagine that name-calling is appropriate and useful, then I suppose you will have at it, but should you do so, you might well find that your invective “slights” have magically disappeared …
Should you find yourself in such a place, mikelz, be forewarned: There is no appeal.
Just to clue you in, I fully support having at it, with emotion on full-throttle, as you may discover, should you venture onto the seemingly placid waters of the lake …
Sometimes it ain’t what it seems.
DW