Now the testimony phase of the Prop 8 Trial has ended, the covers have been pulled back on the motives and operations of the proponents of Prop 8. While we had an entire Prop 8 political campaign in 2008, and since then a court case to the California Supreme Court, it is only in the federal trial that a spotlight has shined on the animus and motivations of the people who want to restrict the civil marriage rights of gays and lesbians.
Whenever someone asks me “how was it?” to sit through almost every minute of opening arguments and testimony, and cross examination, I flash on poor Mary Todd: “Other than that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you like the play?” Because while there were some spectacular moments from David Boies as he exposed the pitiful non-expertise of both the remaining witnesses the Defendant-Intervenors called, and some real humor from Judge Vaughn Walker — my most vivid memory from those twelve days will always be the realization that, for the proponents of Prop 8, gays and lesbians have quite enough power right now. We should be happy with what we have. And stop demanding more.
Because gays and lesbians have political allies (only a few of those named at trial actually support full marriage rights) and because we are featured in television shows (even though the Ellen and Will & Grace sitcoms are long gone) and because we have disposable income (we do?!) and because we are, at long last, federally protected from violent hate crimes, we should be content.
We should be content that politicians march in our festive Pride parades, and that some gays & lesbians get elected to office here and there, and that the President speaks to national meetings of our moneyed leadership. We should be content that the Congress might actually take up the Employment Non-Discrimination Act and the Defense of Marriage Act and the Don’t-Ask/Don’t-Tell discrimination against those actively serving in the military. Because, somehow, having our issues discussed and debated in public (whether legislation is actually passed or not) denotes just about enough power — power that gays & lesbians should be very happy to have.
We should be content that some states let us marry; we should be happy that some states let us adopt; we should be pleased that some states let us foster kids. And we should be ecstatic that some states even let us contract in some odd, cobbled together, frequently rewritten, specially designed but not at all clearly understood unit called Civil Unions or Domestic Partnerships. The fact that we are second-class citizens in the constitutions of more than twenty states should not matter, because, well, Barney Frank chairs the House Banking Committee!
Hurray!
After a while of this — and it was the primary argument of the Defendant-Intervenors — it was easier to turn off my brain and type what they said without actually processing any of it. As I go back and read some of the liveblogging, I am amazed that I really don’t recall a lot of it. It just went from my ears to my fingertips, without actually engaging my brain.
Because it was so toxic, so painful, so absurd — would be the alleged promiscuity of gay men somehow redefine marriage for all men? Would children essentially be snatched from loving opposite-marriage homes, to be placed with single gay or lesbian parents, or with same-sex couples? Would boys want to marry princes, or girls princesses? Would daughters want to have sex with other girls since they couldn’t get dates with boys, and gay marriage made same-sex relationships seem okay? And would the never-changed institution of marriage — the same exact institution through all of human history, apparently — withstand this new assault?
And who would teach the sons of lesbian parents how to change the car’s oil?
When we reached that absurdity, it was like a thunderbolt for me. I had already realized they wanted to repeal The Enlightenment, they had no basic understanding of the scientific method, and they did not grasp logic at its root. But when we were told, finally, that prohibiting same-sex marriage was really about learning how to change your car’s oil, I understood: no argument is too silly, no underpinnings are too fundamentalist, no religiosity is too cloying. These people will use any illogic they can grab hold of in an attempt to impose their values and morals and religious code on others.
Because their religious code is best for them, it must be best for you and me. That, in essence, is all they have: that they know best for all of us. And that we’d better pay attention and model American civil institutions on their religious beliefs.
That’s it. That’s what they want.
But in our pluralistic multicultural democracy, we simply cannot allow them to have that. It just won’t work. Unless we want America to become the Republic of Gilead, this movement of theirs must be stopped, right here and right now.
Thank you for the opportunity to “turn the lights on” during the past three weeks. (And yes, I know — the video has some factual inaccuracies about who exactly turned off the cameras. But it’s cute, huh?) I will be back at the federal courthouse in San Francisco for closing arguments (watch FDL for that announcement, expected in March or perhaps April) and of course for Judge Vaughn Walker’s ruling following those closing arguments.
Please keep an eye on the FDL Prop 8 Hub for more news going forward. All our Prop 8 liveblogging is there, in case you missed any of it. Additionally, there is some great analysis by several of our thoughtful FDL writers, among them David Dayen, Marcy Wheeler, bmaz, Peterr, egregious, and Lisa Derrick.
And, finally, please support our efforts if you can. Every little bit helps.
{Video from Joseph Gordon-Levitt’s company HitRECord, via Towleroad and Julia Rosen at the Courage Campaign’s Prop 8 Trial Tracker}



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Good evening, everyone.
Evening, Teddy. Hello, pups.
OT but, there was an article early this AM about china, and now it’s seem to have disappeared – that’s frustrating..
Teddy!
for the proponents of Prop 8, gays and lesbians have quite enough power right now
Actually, I think most of them think you have far too many rights at present and would be quite happy to shove all of you back into the deepest, darkest closets that they could find. On the other hand, they are clearly on the losing side of history here. More and more people support LGBT rights and a clear majority of younger people do so, including the right to marry.
teddy! the live blogging was riveting reading. thank you and your team.
was it on fdl front page or at one of the sister blogs?
Hey, EDP! How’s the semester going for you? So far so good here in the northern Rockies.
The first couple of weeks have gone pretty well. I have a handful of students I’m hoping I’ll get some good engagement from, but we’ll see as the class progresses.
OT, but I think my young kitteh is getting entirely too comfortable with the idea that she is now top cat around here.
So far I have been really happy with my two upper division classes. We seem to be off to a better start than usual and these are two of my better classes to begin with.
Powerful stuff. Thanks for being part of history Teddy.
So only men can teach boys how to change the oil in the car? Learn something new every day.
I missed much of your live blogging, Teddy, as I was in Puerto Vallarta. (Missed all of the SoCal storms too!) I had no idea what a huge gay population Puerto Vallarta has. I was able to get some nice goodies from Lalo Morales. He’s American, as is much of the city’s gay population, but his partner is Mexican from Mexico City. Everyone is really cool with the whole thing…and such a beautiful city.
thank you for all the liveblogging, very insightful and informative.
I am a member of the GLBT group at my school [law school]. We’re looking into hosting some events for the campus and if possible I’d like to feature the prop 8 trial and the liveblogging as a good example of current events affecting GLBT issues.
To that end, I’d like it if I could talk with you about using the material or even having a live video cast. What would be the best way to contact you?
Congratulations! It’s a kitty! An adorable kitty at that!
Southern Dragon included a tribute to Shadow in his Caturday Post.
Good! Here’s hoping that young minds continue to be corruptible.
(Whoops! This was meant to be a reply to DrDick @10.)
In the Zapotec parts of Oaxaca they even have a third gender.
Hello Doc
It’s a pair-o-docs!
(I know, I know — but I never get tired of that one when the two of you are around)
Teddy, not to get to far ahead (but doing so anyway), if the current court overturns Prop 8 do you envision this making it’s way to SCOTUS? The thought of the matter being decided by the unholy five fills my heart with dread.
suz!
Thank you. We had great backstage assistance, as well. A wonderful team here at the ‘lake.
great photo, pretty kitty!
I know the feeling. It’s down to where I’d rather important issues not be decided at all than that they be decided by John Roberts and His Usual Suspects.
Nice post, I will have to thank SD when I see him next.
Smoke is my other kitteh that I have had for about 4 years now. She adopted me about a year after Shadow’s brother, Kacha, died. She was a stray hanging around the apartments for a couple of months. She latched onto me (I had done nothing particular to encourage her) and got progressively more affectionate. Then she started jumping up on the back door and looking in the window, practically knocking the door down. After about a week of that, I opened the door and asked her if she wanted to come in. the rest is history.
This crew actually seems eager to be corrupted.
Hey Teddy!!! I hope your fingers have recoved as they were busy little bees during the trial. It must have been strange seeing Blankenhorn and Tam in the flesh.
Thank you for all of your assist with keeping the Hub alive and meaningful, eg. You really were Janey on the Spot with updates.
The avian rescue where I adopted Bob lets the birds choose the people they want to be with. They said in the three years he had been there I was the first person he came out of his cage to meet. It’s a good way to handle it.
Smoke is a gorgeous kitty.
He’s gonna wear them to the bone doing that.
The case is designed for SCOTUS, by two excellent appellate attorneys with great previous success there (Boies and Olson). I’m sure it will get there, but in what time we will only know as it unfolds.
Remember, these nine justices are not immortal, and the unfolding of time through the Ninth Circuit and Ninth Appeals Court may yield some surprising twists.
And not a bit full of herself. 8-P
Interesting. The Mola in Panama see the women as leaders of their tribe. Lots of albinos, and they are revered in this group.
i like to think of them as bad to the bone
Interesting article. Further evidence, not that we needed any, that the antipathy often expressed toward homosexuals is cultural in origin and not something innate.
The question is, what is it about these other cultures that makes them more tolerant?
Wrote you offthread.
Thanks!
Good question and I am not sure what the answer is. As I say in my gender class referenced above, according to the only two cross cultural surveys we have on the topic, about 2/3 of the cultures we have adequate data on have traditionally accepted homosexuality and only 1/3 have prohibited it in some way. Sadly many of those cultures have also adopted increasing homophobia, especially in Native America and Africa, as a consequence of colonialism and Christian missionaries.
You are doing a great service here and it would appear that you are beginning to get a bit of wider recognition for it.
Let us hope the journey begins with a favorable ruling in the current setting… and soon. Can’t hold my breath too much longer.
Reading the blogging done for the trial by Teddy, David and Marcy one got the clear feeling that the Defendents really didn’t care that much about winning because they were not well prepared and brought crappy witnesses to put on the stand. I guess they expect a higher court to save their sorry asses.
We should likely see Closing Arguments in March (or April). Who knows when the ruling will be, even at this level?
So, take a breath dear.
Thanks, breathing again. Not that I don’t look terrific in purple.
So Teddy are ya prepared to live blog the 9th C. Court of Appeals trial…? ;-)
I am sure that you are stunning (and possibly stunned in context).
i vote we also send teddy to live blog it when it hits the supremes…
Damm Well Straight! Don’t settle Dude either we all got the same rights or non of us do:) Times like this I’m Proud to be part of the Lake.
Seconded.
He does need to get out a bit more. 8-)
That reminded me that when I started 3rd grade my mom got me three matching sets of jeans with long puffy sleeved paisley print shirts… one in purple, another in burgundy and the third in green. Ha!
It was a bold fashion statement but I think I pulled it off. It was 1969, after all. Worst part was that the shirts were polyester and it was about 100 degrees out when school started that year.
Ya know that’s the eventual result either way…! ;-)
If they’ll have us, sure. Not much to see at Appeals, except of course attorneys answering questions. No new evidence, really.
I noticed that to they acted like those GOP Reps Obama schooled. Either they didn’t care or they have never heard an opposing argument they acted like their *cough* truths were self evident.
You were definitely ahead of the curve there. I was a senior in high school and I don’t think I would have tried that. Of course by the end of the next year (my freshman year of college), anything went.
But the judges’ questions and lawyers’ answers can be very revealing.
don’t forget to donate to help support the lake’s ability to live blog
True…! Ya think Boies-Olsen will be there the whole distance…?
Do they have experience in the Supreme Court – if you know?
There was no clearer signal that this would go to SCOTUS than when they prohibited broadcast from the lower courtroom; they know it’s coming, and they don’t want no silly broadcasters, reporters, or bloggers sending their evil signals out of their Chambers. Better for them to set the rules at the lowest level possible than have to change the rules once we’ve gotten used to them as the case works it way up to SCOTUS.
Top of my head maybe they don’t try and control sex with guilt? Are cultures that try and control sex with guilt more militaristic?
Are there cultures that are militaristic without using sex and guilt to produce frustration?
I would expect so. I do not think either would have taken this case otherwise, especially Olsen. These are both first rate SCOTUS litigators.
Considering Olsen was Shrub’s Solicitor General, I’d say yes…! ;-)
Yes, they both have argued numerous cases to the Supreme’s…! *g*
That does not work. The Spartans had institutionalized homosexuality, as did the Thebans, and encouraged it among soldiers. Sparta was one of the most militarized states in history.
Yeah, Olson is the greatest living SCOTUS attorney: 48 wins of 56 cases, including Bush v Gore, of course. Boies, I think, is #2.
That’s impressive. I’m looking for a happy outcome.
I am really surprised the attorneys on the other side were not wearing Depends for the duration.
As we learned from idiot-expert Blankenhorn, though, these forms in Ancient Greece were not marriage!~
Seems like the spread and influence of Christianity has played a bigger role in fostering intolerant attitudes in this hemisphere. Which is not to suggest that Christianity and militarism are not linked, although if that is the case it is certainly not exclusive to Christianity.
Already way out of my depth so I won’t speculate further.
Sadly not, though there are a large number of societies in the world where same sex (though not same gender) marriage is allowed and practiced. Gay marriage was allowed, if rare, in Christian Byzantium. We have the marriage records.
It’s rather nice to have that one-two combo at your side…! What’s so unusual, and more significant is that they’re from opposite sides of the political/legal spectrum…! *g*
Almost any world religion, including Buddhism, can be linked to militarism. There is no linkage to attitudes toward sexuality, though misogyny does tend to correlate rather strongly with it.
But I can’t help but remember that five of them are catholic.
Sparta also had the biggest slave society population wise I think and didn’t they kill babies with the slightest deformity. Maybe an emphasis on perfection used to justify inequality is the broader theme and sex and guilt is just one of those themes.
Also didn’t the Thebans copy everything they could about the Spartans to beat them?
People in this country don’t seem to understand what marriage is and is not. It IS a contract with the state.
It is NOT a church, organ music, bride in white (pure, of course) and lots of gifts. The whole thing is just silly but highly painful.
Haven’t seen any sign that has any influence on Sotomayor.
Cicero wrote some whinny piece against a public gay marriage in Rome I recall.
Probably a common thread is that people in power use whatever is available, frequently religion, to rationalize aggression.
Going to call it a night, splendid evening to all.
Nite to you and Bob
Not in this case, I think. Institutionalized homosexuality in one form or another was common, if not the norm, in all of classical Greece. In Athens, it was man-(adolescent)boy bonds (the students of those philosophers were generally their lovers as well). The Theban pair bonds (same sex romantic pairs) had a longstanding reputation for ferocity and were among the most feared soldier in Classical Greece.
Nighters.
g’nite rat
Aloha, RF… Give Bob a few seeds for me…! ;-)
Adding to that militaristic cultures need an internal enemy who they feel superior to and who they can blame when they fail.
Could you please send that message to the DADT lovers in the military?
Inequality an internal enemy is also needed and a belief in their own perfection killing imperfect babies shows Sparta really took this belief seriously.
She hasn’t been on the Court that long. As an appelete judge she was very good about following precedent. Now, who knows? I’m hopefull though,
I keep telling it to my intro classes and I get lots of ROTC kids in there. I think is important to recognize that the military is always one of the most regressive institutions in any society and highly resistant to change. they also actively resisted integration of Blacks and later women. It was only because presidents forced them to that they did it. This one really falls on Obama’s shoulders.
Think it is time I toddled off as well. Take care all.
ya’ll see that banner up top of the thread?
Socrates from Athens was so renown for his ugliness that when I think it was Aristophanes did a play about him Socrates stood up so the crowd could see the Greek mask the actor wore was not an exaggeration.
I’m guessing he would have been weeded out of the Spartan gene pool.
Going down for routine maintenance – new title for the post – Sunday Late Night: Yes They Can Turn the Lights Off?
Right. I was able to be around for you guys to explain the camera angle. How do you think the electionon the proposition in 2010 will go?
that’s the one (laughing)
FDL and partner sites will be undergoing routine maintenance at 9:30pm Pacific, 12:30am Eastern. We will be back at 100% by 9:50pm Pacific, 12:50am Eastern.
In a kinda sorta related way, my neck of the woods had a visit from Fred Phelps and his merry band of haters. The kids at Gunn high responded much better than I would have. My idea of a response included ski masks and baseball bats. I firmly believe that even the most tolerant person can be pushed too far.
*gasp* what ever will I do for 20 minutes…? ;-)
Teddy, I just had a freakout about how stupid the Obama administration is being about all of this. Imagine that the (old) republican party decided to court the gays.
You know, the more I read and learn about our military, the more I’ve come to believe it’s not the troops who have a problem with gays and lesbians; they’re in their teens and twenties. And like most that age, they don’t care about sexual orientation.
The problem is with the officer corps. And they need to learn to take orders from their CinC.
Interestingly, at RP we just were discussing SCOTUS… And how Scalia and Thomas were not present for the SOTU… I said it was a good thing Scalia wasn’t there, He’d have yelled ‘You Lie’…! ;-)
hahahaha!
Think of pitchers and catchers?
And…FWIW, TRex would be pleased that I’m asking that question.
Frankly, I don’t think we should have any more votes in America about peoples’ civil rights. That’s not the way to handle the issue, at the ballot box.
See ya’ll on the flip side….
Considering the time, I’ll just log off and maybe come back for LLN
hahahahaha
i’ve got a extra special one planned for tonight — hope to see ya there
and we are back…..
but are we?
Lights are still on here, but they’re flickering!
is it stormy down in socal loohoo?
Agreed.
Nah. Just a little cloudy.
What’s it like on the Oregon Coast?
I am
cloudy but the clouds clear up near the horizon near sunset so i’ve gotten some spectacular color yesterday and tonight
Can’t wait for “Lost” to enter the next, last season: Suzanne Pleshette’s Dream. What a loser of a show. And the ads are worse!
woohoo! gotta have the host
they forking moved it to tuesday nites…. and its the last season – i’m so looking forward to learning all the secrets and the revealn (rabid lost fan)
I look forward to the pics! Makes a nice diary.
i put yesterday’s up at my place
I saw it! It’s been beautiful skies here too. Mooney, foggy, kinda cool looking.
If we lose this case, our next move should be to legally separate civil and religious marriage. That might be the easiest solution to church meddling in civil law.