[Welcome Sean Carroll, and Host Chad Orzel.] [As a courtesy to our guests, please keep comments to the book. Please take other conversations to a previous thread. - bev]
Sean Carroll’s From Eternity to Here sets out to explain the nature of time, particularly what’s known as the “arrow of time,” the fact that we experience time as a flow in only one direction, from the past into the future. This is a daunting prospect, as just setting up the question requires a discussion of just about every important physics discovery of the 19th and 20th centuries. Carroll manages to make it all readable, though, and whether or not you end up agreeing with his preferred approach, you’ll leave the book with a clearer sense of the problems and the physics involved in the nature of time.
From Eternity to Here is a little unusual in that it is not just a popular-level explanation of well settled physical questions, but a book-length argument in favor of a particular theory of the universe. This is much less common in the science side of academia than in the humanities, where the scholarly monograph is one of the standard units of academic production. Scientists, for the most part, don’t write books, and as a result the interested reader usually needs to piece together a full argument from a large set of journal articles and a great deal of background knowledge. It’s a pleasure to see everything laid out in one place like this.
The humanities style is probably fitting, as the subject matter often straddles the border between physics and philosophy. Any book asking questions like “What should the Universe look like?” ought to contain a healthy amount of philosophy, and this delivers, along with a rich assortment of literary and cultural allusions, delivered with dry humor.
While the book is ultimately an argument in favor of a very particular physical model of the universe, it is not an intimidatingly mathematical work. Carroll includes citations of most of the critical papers in modern theoretical physics, but the text here doesn’t involve anything more daunting than scientific notation (inescapable when you’re dealing with a book about the entire universe) and the occasional logarithm (which are explained clearly and concisely in an appendix).
While the book contains an excellent summary of all the major theories of modern physics, the key concept here is the notion of entropy, and the key scientific figure in the story is Ludwig Boltzmann, who first explained entropy as a measure of the “disorder” of a system. Carroll recasts the question of the arrow of time as primarily a problem of thermodynamics, and the second law of thermodynamics in particular. The arrow of time is inextricably bound up with the increase of entropy in the universe, and Carroll makes a case that the crucial question in cosmology ought to be “Why was the entropy of the early universe so low?” This puts a very different slant on the usual questions about the cause of the Big Bang and the eventual fate of the universe, and suggests a very different answer.
The final section of the book runs through a large number of possible explanations put forth for the origin and fate of the universe, and makes an argument for Carroll’s own preferred model, in which our universe is just one of many “baby universes” spawned from quantum fluctuations in an eternally existing “multiverse.” One may not find the arguments in favor of the multiverse picture as the most satisfying of these options entirely convincing– something that I hope we will discuss a bit in this book salon– but just setting up the questions makes this a very thought-provoking book.
From Eternity to Here provides an excellent and highly readable survey of pretty much the entire history of physics, and uses it to attempt to explain pretty much the entire history of the universe. While it may or may not convince you that physicists have glimpsed the “ultimate theory of time,” it’s a book that asks deep questions and provides thoughtful answers, and that alone makes it a rewarding read.



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Sean, Welcome to the Lake.
Chad, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Hi Everyone — Looking forward to the chat!
Welcome Sean, everybody else. This should be fun, but I apologize in advance for my lousy typing skills.
So, we’ll kick things off with a general question for Sean: Since you’re based in LA, the traditional “elevator pitch” format seems appropriate for an introduction. So: you’re headed to an appointment on the twentieth floor, and the other person in the elevator is James Cameron with a solid gold suitcase full of $100 bills. How would you explain the nature of time to him during the course of the elevator ride so that he’ll bankroll your future research, or at least give you a cushy technical consultant gig on his next movie?
Good afternoon Sean and Chad and welcome to FDL this afternoon
Sean, I have not had a chance to read your book but do have a question to start out. How do you respond to the folks who seem to hate science and think it all began under 10k years ago?
I think I’m faster than Cameron, so it would be tempting to swipe the suitcase and run.
But if reason prevailed, I’d say: “Physicists know the basics about how time works, including how to manipulate it according to relativity and how to think about the arrow of time pointing from the past to the future. But they don’t understand why there is an arrow of time in the first place — that goes back to the Big Bang. By thinking hard about where the universe comes from, we’ll have a better understanding of why time flows uniformly forward, which is a pretty big question.”
This is a blog. We know how to understand the intent behind the typos. :})
I can’t do much better than to say “look at the evidence.” Scientists are ambitious, trying to understand how Nature works, but that ambition has paid off in tangible advances. The same kinds of theories that help us build better TV sets underlie the basic principles that convince us we live in an old universe.
Sadly, I’ve met lots of those people, but few of them who are willing to change their minds!
That’s why it’s set in an elevator– there’s nowhere to run. If you were on the stairs, he’d never stand a chance.
The notion of entropy as a measure of the disorder of a system is really central to the whole “arrow of time” question. Just so everybody’s on the same page, could you say a few words about how that works?
Prof. Carroll, I just got your book out of the library, so I haven’t had time to read it, but I did look through the index. I did not see any reference to “entanglement.” Wouldn’t that be something happens outside of time or without time? If so, isn’t it possible that there may be other things not yet determined that are not affected by time?
Entanglement is a phenomenon that doesn’t have a great deal to do with time. It provides for some non-local correlations between quantum objects, but doesn’t give you a way to send information faster than the speed of light, or anything that would cause problems with time.
Thank you.
As someone who has read a lot of sci-fi (and fantasy as well), this book sounds like it would lead me down a path to wondering how I (or any number of writers such as Asimov, Heinlein, Gordon Dickinson, or Joe Haldeman to name a few) could use for a “future history” series. (Too bad the first three are all deceased)
The notion of entropy is absolutely crucial to understanding the arrow of time. Very roughly, it’s a way of measuring disorder — a neatly arranged stack of papers has a low entropy, while the same papers scattered randomly over a desktop has a high entropy. Once you accept the existence of atoms, the same idea carries over to everything in the universe — orderly arrangements of atoms have low entropy, random arrangements have high entropy. This was all put together in the 1870′s by Ludwig Boltzmann and his colleagues.
Entropy tends to go up, for a very simple reason: there are more ways to be messy (high-entropy) than to be organized (low-entropy). That simple idea is behind every manifestation of the arrow of time, from the fact that we all grow older with time to the fact that we remember yesterday but not tomorrow. (For details, I can recommend a good book.)
(I’ve got my own pop-science book out, which has a bunch of stuff about entanglement in it. I’m not trying to trample Sean’s chat.)
Perhaps you could explain briefly the mechanism of creation of baby verses.
Entanglement is totally in the index! “entanglement, 246, 248, 250, 252-53, 254-55, 403n205.” Chapter 12 is all about it.
As Chad says, entanglement by itself doesn’t help explain the arrow of time. But there is a relationship — I personally suspect that our ultimate understanding of “collapse of the wavefunction” will be closely tied to a better understanding of entropy.
Entropy is something we tend to associate with thermodynamics, not cosmology. Thermodynamics and cosmology are not subjects that are frequently connected in the popular imagination– one deals with engines and boxes of gas, the other with the Big Bang and the fate of the universe. This book is in part an argument that thermodynamics, particularly the second law, should be seen as an essential part of cosmology. Can you give a short explanation of how and why they belong together?
I think there’s still a lot of room for novel time-twisting stories out there in SF.
The very basic idea is that we have general relativity, which tells us that space and time are dynamical, and quantum mechanics, which tells us that there can be spontaneous “quantum fluctuations” between different states. So we can imagine fluctuations that pinch off a disconnected region of spacetime, that grows into its own baby universe.
Obviously there’s a lot of speculation there. Right now the state of the art is very far from settled; the idea of baby universes is a plausible scenario, but we can’t say for sure whether they are actually created.
Yay! I love this topic, and have this book in my Amazon cart.
So, yes please talk about the 2nd law of “thermogoddamics” as Heinlen called it. :)
While the arrow of time may be unidirectional, the rate at which time runs is variable and is path dependent. I can also think of 6 uses of “before”, some of which have a meaning, some which do not, and some which are indeterminate.
Oh of course. I just listed the ones I’ve read that I’m sure could take a book like this and run with it. Since they all created “universes” out of thin air, they’re the types that I like to read knowing there is some solid science behind the imaginations.
Connecting thermodynamics with cosmology isn’t usually done in textbooks, but it was done by the pioneers such as Boltzmann, not to mention Eddington, Feynman, Hawking… The thing is that you don’t need cosmology to use thermodynamics; starting with whatever state you specify, ordinary textbook ideas are perfectly good for extrapolating them into the future. But they’re terrible for reconstructing the past — they would give nonsensical results.
It’s long been recognized that the resolution to this problem is that the rules of thermodynamics aren’t enough; you need an extra boundary condition in the past, which says that the early universe has a low entropy. (I.e. it’s very ordered.) So if you want to use thermodynamics to understand what happens in your kitchen, you’re fine without cosmology; if you want to understand why those rules have always applied, you need to do better.
Well, along any particular path the rate at which time runs is always one second per second! But when you compare different paths you can get very different answers. That’s part and parcel of relativity (chapters 4 & 5).
Sorry, if I had learned to read, I would have seen the tiny print. I will certainly pay close attention when I read the book. I will also see if Prof. Orzel’s dog learned any physics.
There a long literary tradition of using the Second Law (entropy always increases) to draw dreary fatalistic conclusions — Henry Adams, Thomas Pynchon, etc. And they’re probably right! The universe is winding down to a cold, desolate emptiness. But we still have about a googol years before we really get there.
Since both quantum mechanics and the question of reconstructing the past from the present state of things have come up, one thing that seems like it has the potential to throw a wrench into many discussions of entropy and cosmology is the question of quantum measurement. While some versions of quantum theory are in principle reversible, other interpretations treat measurement as an irreversible process that destroys information about the past. How much of a problem is this for the different approaches to the arrow of time problem? In particular, does the multiverse picture you advocate in the later chapters depend on which view of quantum measurement you take?
I do hope SF authors read this book (and similar ones). Too bad that Lost is entering its final season, I have a few ideas…
I am not sure how this relates to time. Entropy increases in a closed system overall but it can still decrease locally within that system. Take living things for example. But in an unbounded system, like the universe, does entropy have the same meaning since you are moving from making statements about bodies in space-time to space-time itself?
I have a wild thought, as I’m better suited towards imagination than science, but I’ve always thought that there was perhaps some sort of “membrane” of time, such that the energy of the ever increasing entropy went “through” that membrane.
In other words, no Big Crunch, but the set up on the other side of my imaginary membrane for the next Big Bang.
I chalk it up to bein’ a wannabe Hindu. :)
Hi Sean
What do you think of Erik Verlinde’s new theory on gravity being a result of space and time?
I think that one’s attitude toward the arrow of time problem will depend heavily on one’s stance toward what really happens when someone makes a quantum measurement. Under the textbook Copenhagen interpretation, where a set of possible outcomes collapses to one true result, quantum measurement is the unique physical process that is truly irreversible at a fundamental level. You can’t un-observe things. I’m not sure what to make of that, but it is surely important. I should say, however, that I don’t see any way to take this irreversibility and use it to help explain the arrow of time.
In a many-worlds interpretation (which I like), the evolution is perfectly reversible, but we just find ourselves in a tiny part of the whole quantum universe. I think that this perception of collapse will ultimately be shown to only be possible because the universe has a very low entropy. (Wave functions don’t collapse in thermal equilibrium.) But I’m not an expert.
Do you discuss Closed timelike curves and causality violation? There’s nothing in General Relativity forbidding them. If they exist then time isn’t a one way arrow.
We generally think if the whole universe as a closed system; if that’s not exactly true, it’s a pretty good approximation. And that system started with an extremely low entropy. Given that start, we do a pretty good job of explaining everything since then (entropy-wise), but the starting point is still a mystery.
Gravity is certainly a feature of space and time — Verlinde’s new approach is to treat it as a side effect of entropy. I think it’s a very powerful and interesting idea, although I have no idea whether it’s ultimately going to be fruitful. In fact I wonder whether it won’t turn out that every force of nature can be thought of as an “entropic” force in some new formulation. Again, the proof will be in whether this leads us to understand anything new.
just got here and jumped straight to comment
while in school some thirty years ago, when I found the postulation that we were an expanding universe that might eventually contract, I had myself postulated that this would make us a white whole inside a black whole, whence we would be never ending expanding and contracting within those peramters
the big bang would be that time when the contracting black whole reached it’s critical contraction and converted to white whole
a couple of decades later I read something similar had been thought a relevant theory
is it?
in addition, I’ve always wondered why the big bang hasn’t been associated with the god figure and creation, it goes very nicely as far as I am concerned
anyway, now to read the thread and comments
Yes, I discuss closed timelike curves (time machines) in great detail in Chapter 6. In fact I argue that the reason why they seem so paradoxical is because it’s difficult to define a consistent arrow of time in their presence.
In doing so, couldn’t there be some sort of Universal Chandrasekhar Limit? That’s what always makes me think of Big Bang, Cold Flat End or Big Crunch.
Could not any of those 3 scenarios happen if there were to be some sort of Universal Chandrasekhar Limit?
My question is: are the black holes, that rebuild mass, acting as (a one way valve, not emitting even light,) that takes mass into a next dimension, and could recycle it to a new focus for new big bangs?
Or what is your theory of time past the death of the universe.
Actually the conventional Big Bang model is very much like a white hole; the only difference is that it extends throughout the universe rather than being localized (and it starts with an extremely low entropy). There’s no reason to think there’s a black hole surrounding it; not even sure how that would work.
Some people do try to associate the Big Bang with God, but the inventor of the theory — a priest named Georges Lemaitre — wasn’t one of them. Whatever your religious beliefs might be, the science should stand or fall on its own merits.
The process of writing my talking-to-the-dog physics book has made me like Many-Worlds better than I did before. It’s a field that I think has been done a significant disservice by a lot of bad popularizations– the actual interpretation as I understand it after a lot of reading up while writing the book is much less baroque than the usual descriptions. And, as you say, it seems to do better in terms of reversibility and preservation of information.
I’m not entirely sold on it, but I probably like it better than the collapse-type interpretations these days. I wouldn’t claim to be an expert, either, though, and there are approximately as many interpretations as there are real experts in quantum foundations.
There is something like a universal Chandrasekhar limit — namely, there is an upper limit to the total amount of entropy that can be squeezed into a region of space. It’s equal to the entropy of a black hole with the same volume. But space can expand, and therefore fit more entropy; so it turns out that a truly high-entropy state would just look like expanding empty space.
now that’s interesting, my theory posted @36 basically creates a possible universe for each black whole
Well, there could be new universes inside black holes; various people have speculated along those lines. But we don’t have a solid theory that predicts that right now.
Our real universe seems to be emptying out, and will continue to do so forever. I speculate that this isn’t the true end, as baby universe could possibly be created from that empty space. But again, no solid theory.
Just to mix things up a little, I’d like to throw in an occasional process question. So, how did you end up writing a general audience book about these topics (which, as I said in the introduction, is a little unusual for a scientist)? Is it something that you had as a goal all along, or is it an idea that came about through some other process?
My personal conversion experience for the many-worlds interpretation was reading Bryce DeWitt, who put it bluntly: the MWI is simply the statement that states evolve according to the Schrodinger equation, and that’s all there is to it. (Still leaves some interpretive work to be done…)
I think the real paradox of traveling back in time would be that it means there is no choice, our past exists already and our future might as well
that makes us all helpless, worse then that, it makes us all inocent, and powerless, we are what we will be
Nice. I remember reading Tipler’s 1974 letter while studying General Relativity and it being a mindblower.
How much Differential Geometry is used in your explication? It’s very hard to think about General Relativity coherently without at least an idea of a Riemannian metric in my opinion. Introducing that level of mathematics tends to put off a popular audience. Trying to understand the subject without it can end up with the reader having a superficial understanding that is prone to error.
We’ve had a few mentions of vacuum fluctuations and the like, but maybe we should try to lay the idea out in a little more detail. It’s one of the weirder notions from quantum physics (and my dog’s favorite part of the theory, as it involves pairs of particles popping into existence from nothing. You talk about the idea that these could even lead to entire observers– “Boltzmann Brains” (which would be a good name for a band)– popping into existence for a fleeting instant.
While I can vouch for the idea that this is solid science, at least at the particle-pair level, can you give a brief outline of the idea for people who aren’t familiar with it?
As a companion to this Sean (I think), what physicists most influenced your writing (and choice of physics as a field in the first place)?
Thank you so much, Sean, for being here to discuss your book and Chad for hosting.
I’m still working my way through the book and I want to say thanks for making it such an easy read — not that I can’t handle something chewier, but it’s easy enough for me to discuss with my school-aged kids and generate deeper discussion with them (and a few physics-bashful adults, too). Also very pleased with the appendix; I’m tempted to read even more of the source material because of the way in which it’s composed.
I’ve already read a number of popular works on physics, including Hawking and Greene, and dabbled in some cosmology; I guess I had not really though about the importance of “conservation of information” until reading this particular book.
Which brings me to Bohm and Bell; I wonder whether the nature of nonlocality has limits because of the nature of information, thinking in particular of experiments in which spin has been applied in tandem to two particles after which they are flung apart. They continue to spin in sync with each other — but would this break down if one particle could be flung forward in time? or would they retain their sync because in theory the information is the same?
I was always mildly intrigued by the idea of writing a popular book, as I think public communication is a big part of what academics should do. This particular book came about because I think the topic is (1) a good way of traveling from pretty concrete ideas to some outlandish speculations, (2) underserved in the current pop-science literature, and (3) a vehicle for arguing to my fellow cosmologists that the low entropy of the early universe is a problem we should take very seriously. (Of course Roger Penrose has been arguing this for years with little progress, so I’m not sure why I should be so optimistic.)
That’s rather my point. The size of the box changes and information that was contained in the box is lost. This is different from my now distant memory of standard thermodynamics.
There’s no differential geometry at all in this book. But I did write a graduate-level textbook that talks all about it!
Just keep him away from Schrödinger’s cat ;-)
I’ve forgotten my manners – Thanks for being here today Sean and entertaining our questions, and thank you Chad for hosting.
Ditto, me too about the manners; got excited and forgot myself.
Thanks for being here!
It’s an old idea going back to Boltzmann himself (pre-quantum mechanics). If you leave a large collection of atoms alone for a long time — e.g., forever — they will assemble into every possible configuration eventually. So maybe the whole universe is just such a random configuration. These days it’s even more inevitable, as quantum fluctuations (plus some ideas about dark energy) imply the same kind of scenario even in empty space, without any atoms around.
The problem is, this scenario makes a prediction that is dramatically inconsistent with the data. Namely: we should be the smallest possible fluctuation — a single person, or even a single brain. And we’re not. (Or at least I’m not.) So the universe is *not* just a fluctuation around equilibrium; we have to come up with a better explanation.
I was influenced by lots of people. If I had to pick one: George Gamow. He was an under-rated but brilliantly creative thinker and writer, and the first person to take the physics of the Big Bang very seriously.
Hmm, I’m not sure what “flung forward in time” would mean. Everything moves forward in time as long it continues to exist. If something stopped existing and then came back into existence, would it be the same thing? So I don’t think I understand the scenario well enough to say much.
The notion of combining nonlocal entanglement and “time travel” is an interesting one– usually, people try to use entanglement to produce faster-than-light transmission effects. My guess would be that it wouldn’t make much difference. The entangled particles are entangled no matter how far apart they are in space, and should probably remain entangled even if they do go around a closed timelike curve. I say this on the basis of about fifteen seconds worth of thought, though.
It wouldn’t surprise me to find that there are papers on the arxiv about this, though. And, now that I think of it, Charlie Stross does use nonlocality and FTL in his Singularity Sky and Iron Sunrise (the latter is my favorite of his books, but now we’re way afield).
Following on from the entropy-as-unifying-principle aspect:
Would you say that the current human concepts of intelligence and adaptive complexity are more catalytic than seed?
And just for kicks, what might you suggest as observable endpoints of such a ‘process’?
Plus a sense of humor. The “Alpher, Bethe, Gamow” paper was inspired!
I would argue that information is not lost. The universe expands, but the underlying laws governing that expansion are perfectly reversible — or at least they seem to be, to the best of our current understanding.
I’ll have to check your text out – Spacetime and Geometry ?. Professor Challifour suggested Misner, Thorne and Wheeler Gravitation as a reference when I took General Relativity. That book is useful as a reference not a text book to teach from in my opinion.
Thanks. This imho is an important statement.
I understand that in a publish or perish culture, there are tremendous pressures driving increasing complexity. At the same time, however, it appears even other disciplines are losing the ability to communicate among themselves. The general public is really left behind.
Thanks very much for making this stuff accessible.
this gets to one of the points that I have trouble with. You use the idea of “Boltzmann Brains” to argue against the idea of our universe as a chance low-entropy fluctuation from a higher-entropy background. How does that work, and is there really a sensible way to talk about the probability of such events?
Not sure I can say much tangible about this, except to opine that the connection between entropy and complexity is a deep one that isn’t currently very well-understood. In particular, the 2nd law says that entropy increases, but gives us no clue about how fast.
It seems clear that the preservation of complexity requires a low entropy and an arrow of time. I talk about this a bit in Chapter 9, but there’s still a lot of work to do before we really understand it.
My book is all about the teaching; MTW or Wald are better as reference books.
Thanks for being here today Sean, and thanks for the introduction Chad.
At least once a decade I like to make it a habit to read a book that lets me know that physics has progressed so far beyond anything known when I was in school that my education is for the most part completely obsolete.
The last one was Michio Kaku’s Hyperspace in 1994, so I guess I’m due. The book looks really interesting.
My pleasure. Public communication isn’t as valued as it should be by our academic culture, but fortunately there are always a few of us who really enjoy it!
Alpher, who had the office next to mine for a while, wasn’t all that thrilled with the Alpher, Bethe, Gamow joke. He felt it ended up hurting his reputation a little.
He did speak fondly of Gamow, though. Gamow was a really interesting guy– his first attempt to escape the Soviet Union with his wife involved the two of them kayaking a hundred-odd miles across the Black Sea. He eventually defected at a Solvay Conference, which he had gotten permission to bring his wife to by brazenly demanding it of Molotov. That takes guts.
(Again, drifting off topic…)
I think public communication is a big part of what academics should do.
This is worth highlighting. I absolutely agree, and wish more of our colleagues shared this opinion.
The argument is just that there will always be many more small-entropy fluctuations than large-entropy ones. This is quantified in a set of formal results in statistical mechanics known as “Fluctuation Theorems.” (For the more mathematically inclined, the probability of any particular fluctuation is proportional to e^(-S), where S is the amount of downward fluctuation in entropy.)
Think of it this way: if that scenario were true, the universe would have had to fluctuate you. But there’s absolutely no reason why it would have to also fluctuate the Andromeda Galaxy. This scenario predicts that everything around us should be in high-entropy thermal equilibrium.
Sean, welcome and thanks for the time here today.
What proposed uses of the CERN large hadron collider impact on your work in the book, and are you participating in any way in the project?
If you’re reading one science book a decade — I’m glad it’s this one! But I’ll admit under questioning that there are quite a few other good ones.
Yeah – Alpher felt a bit overshadowed with such eminent physicists participating in his grad paper from what I understand. Just prooves physicists are human, which brings me to my next point/question.
What about psychology in all of this? I mean just like humans have adapted to oxygen, which is really a poison, but now necessary for our particular biology, haven’t we adapted psychologically to entropy, such that we call it an arrow of time?
Because frankly, the experience of time is not hard and fast. I’m thinking particularly of music for example.
One can go to one specific Beethoven Symphony performance and it seems to take the whole hour, yet see another version and be so psychologically caught up in it that it seems a few mere minutes have passed.
So can you guys speak a little bit to the psychology of the arrow of time?
I’m participating in the Large Hadron Collider by vigorously cheering on the people who are actually working on it. It’s a watershed experiment for particle physics, looking into a regime where we’ve been theorizing about freely for the last three decades. It will be good to get some actual data to kill off some of those ideas, and hopefully spark new ones!
I don’t see any direct connection to the concerns of my book, which is why I didn’t talk too much about experiments. The relevant theories aren’t developed well enough to be subjected to direct tests just yet. Which, it’s worth emphasizing, is very common for popular books but extremely non-representative of most real physics. The overwhelming majority of work is done at the interesting experimental interface.
But then, couldn’t the universe have fluctuated an observer who only thinks that the Andromeda galaxy exists, without actually creating the galaxy?
My problem with this is the same as with arguments about whether we’re all really being simulated by a giant computer built by spiders from Mars, and how simulated universes are vastly more likely than real ones (see some book by Paul Davies that I reviewd a while back… Jackpot, I think). I’m not really convinced there’s any sensible way to assess the likelihood of these things.
The light from the most distant objects visible left them more than 13 billion years ago. Light leaving from them or their descendant bodies will never arrive here because the universe between us and them is expanding at faster than the speed of light. That’s information lost.
Kelly, Chapter 9 is all about entropy and life, at least at a crude big-picture level. There’s no question that life itself would be impossible if we didn’t live in the presence of strongly changing entropy. In particular, the Sun is a hot spot in an otherwise cold sky — just right for maintaining the complexity that makes life interesting.
That’s absolutely fair. We can never argue with certitude that we’re not random fluctuations, or computer simulations, or being tricked by malicious demons a la Descartes. But we can’t proceed sensibly that way, either — none of the arguments we would marshal to prove that was true would be reliable, since none of our sense data would be reliable. (In the book I call this “cognitive instability.”)
In other words: I can’t prove I’m not a random fluctuation, but proceeding as if I am not is the only sensible way to live.
In that case, isn’t it information, unobserved by you, a particular observer, yet still contained within the system itself?
A different sort of process question: One thing that struck me about this book as I was reading it was how you kept most of the explanations at a very abstract level, relying primarily on thought experiments to illuminate the various theories. This is very different than the way I think about things– for example, I can’t imagine explaining time dilation without reference to things like the Hafele-Keating experiment, which demonstrated time dilation using atomic clocks on planes. Was this a conscious decision, or is this just a matter of theorists and experimentalists viewing the world in different ways?
No, it isn’t. It is simply information that can not be interpreted, beyond it’s anticipated quantum effects on surrounding matter.
Yes, when a tree falls in the forest, it does in fact make a sound. Just because you weren’t there to sum the proof…
In other words: I can’t prove I’m not a random fluctuation, but proceeding as if I am not is the only sensible way to live.
Absolutely. It’s similar to why I find “do we really have free will?” to be a completely uninteresting question.
Probably mostly a reflection of different ways of thinking about things. We theorists like to abstract from the actual experiments to the Platonic essence, and then go from there.
But also, the book was already very long, and I didn’t take it as my job to convince people of time dilation, or quantum fluctuations, or the atomic hypothesis. I just assumed they were ready to grant them, and it was my job to explain what they meant. To a skeptic, the right response is always based on experiments, not on abstract explanation.
I wouldn’t call that information lost. It’s information we never had in the first place. There’s nothing in physics that says we must have all possible information, just that once we do have information, it can’t be destroyed easily.
I want to add my thanks to the Profs. It is so great to be able to read and think about important topics that stretch one’s mind, but are not the political topics that so dominate our lives. This is such fun.
It’s information that can’t be observed by me and that means it isn’t information or that it is information that has been lost.
Heh heh, glad to see actual smart people have those same bizarre thoughts.
As opposed to simulated smart people in virtual universes created by spiders from Mars?
(This is not meant to be snarky, by the way– just an odd mental image in response to your phrase.)
Getting back to the big-picture stuff about the universe, you put forth a model in which our universe is a “baby universe” spawned from quantum fluctuations in an eternally existing high-entropy multiverse, described as a de Sitter space, and argue that this is preferable to a theory in which time comes into existence with the Big Bang. Doesn’t this just amount to punting the question of the origin of the Big Bang back a level, though? If our universe is spawned from a de Sitter space, where did the de Sitter space come from?
The point is that I as an observer can go to that woods. If a tree falls I will be able to hear its fall. But bodies do pass out of our universe due to the universe’s expansion. These are trees that I can never hear fall because it is impossible for me to ever come to the forest (although once I could).
I wonder if weekend symposiums for high school teachers and students (and mdeia?) might further public communication. Or virtual colloquiums during a school day?
I didn’t know this was a book that I needed – until now. Thanks for a really interesting book selection and chat.
I think there’s a big difference, namely: the universe from which hypothetically came doesn’t need to have a finely-tuned low-entropy boundary condition at any point. Its evolution is completely “natural.”
The real point of investigating that particular scenario is not that I’d place an even-money bet that it’s right, but that it illustrates what I think we should be looking for in cosmology: a dynamical explanation of the very finely-tuned conditions we see in terms of some bigger picture that doesn’t have any fine tuning. I’d be very happy to see a better-developed model along those lines, but I don’t think there are any right now.
Thanks!
There are some really interesting programs out there that bring high school teachers into research labs at colleges and universities. I was reading a blog post about this recently, and will have to look up the book mentioned there. In my copious free time.
The bottleneck for communication with experts is always time — there are only so many experts in the world (physicists or anything else), and many of them are uninterested in public outreach. So we have to maximize the usefulness of the ones who are interested. I personally like a portfolio of books and lectures and blogging, but I’m not sure what the best balance is, and I’m certainly open to using new technologies in innovative ways. (Come to my talk in Second Life next weekend!)
So how do you define your thermodynamic box? We used to have information from these sources. Now that information is impossible to obtain. How does that factor into your thermodynamic model?
Hugh, that’s a universe all about Hugh, not the entire universe.
For instance I can guarantee you statistically that hundreds of thousands of humans over the last 200 hundred years have never heard Beethoven. That doesn’t mean that the Beethoven information is lost.
It’s just not observed, much less meaningful to those who did not ever hear it.
I have a copy of Prigogine’s book “The End Of Certainty” in which he also grapples with the arrow, and show that the arrow refers to processes which are on a trajectory, where as other processes are dealt with in an ensemble, that is a statistical process rather than a trajectory.
Second, an experiment by Alan Aspect in the 70′s pitted quantum theory against locality and locality lost. The outcome means that superluminal communication is valid.
Have you dealt with those matters?
Okay, I will have to admit that, like Jane above, I do not spend enough time in the deep sciences any more (did in college but the old time arrow has been pointing away from that for far too long, and the last book I recall was Greene’s Elegant Universe. So, perhaps I will come from a different angle. We do mostly politics and law here as standard fare. What can we learn from your work to improve our daily lives in the realms of social, political and legal discourse.
Secondly, with all of the economic frailties in our society, how has it impacted on your and your colleagues’ current and future work? How can people go about supporting your research better?
“Naturalness” arguments are another thing I have a lot of trouble with. I’m not entirely convinced that the multiverse picture is really more satisfying philosophically than a picture in which the Big Bang is really the beginning of everything. The pre-existing eternal de Sitter space spawning lots of other universes seems like an awfully complicated hypothesis to tack on, and arguments about “fine tuning” and the like seem to assume a very particular view of what counts as “natural.” Both views seem to have a large element of “the universe we live in has the properties we see just because it happens to have those properties,” and given that, I’m not sure why adding a zillion other universes makes things any better– we still got lucky in some sense. This is turning into a cranky harangue rather than a question, so I will fall back on the time-honored tactic of blowhards everywhere, and turn it back into a question by ending “So, what do you think of that?”
Yes!
Re: (73) — YES! This is why in no small part we are struggling with climate change today; if corporations whose products are able to suck up all bandwidth with propaganda and disinformation, science eventually suffers and becomes only a subset of corporate subsidies. Americans in particular must see science as something accessible and every day, as common in their daily routines as grabbing their favorite brand product. To the extent that this Book Salon helps realize this, thanks again to Sean and Chad for being here.
Re: Sean (60) — if a spinning particle could be flung at the speed of light away from its spinning twin, it’s beyond our perception of time, but carries/is defined by information shared with its twin. At least that’s what I’m chewing on.
Re: Chad (61) — thanks for mentioning Charlie Stross, I’ll have to look up his work. Might help wrap my head around this incomplete line of questioning if I can chew on a little speculation.
I said up above somewhere that I could think of 6 uses of “before”. This is one of them. I think it is based on a fallacy because time is not separable from space-time so not separable from our universe. Which means that saying “before” the universe is a non-sense.
I don’t deal with Prigogine directly in the book. I tried to read his stuff, and in the end I just couldn’t separate out what was useful. For a more informed take, see:
http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/notebooks/prigogine.html
The Aspect experiments do provide evidence for non-locality (properly defined), but most certainly do not allow for superluminal communication. The results were precisely what is predicted by conventional quantum mechanics — which is great, but pretty well understood.
This reminds me, what do you guys think of the GEO600 experiment?
Note: I don’t know if this suspicion has been disproved or not (I’m just a layman who can’t read everything)
Second, an experiment by Alan Aspect in the 70’s pitted quantum theory against locality and locality lost. The outcome means that superluminal communication is valid.
No.
The relevant Aspect experiment was in 1982, and while it shows pretty convincingly that quantum mechanics is non-local, that non-locality does not in any way allow superluminal communication. The effect shows up only as correlations between sets of measurements made at widely separated locations. The individual strings are entirely random, and the correlation only emerges after comparing the two sets, which must be done by subluminal exchange of information.
There is nothing in quantum physics that makes faster-than-light communication possible. Nothing.
Yes, that is the basis of the Aspect experiment. The information is there and the twins communicate over space and time.
I’m not sure that my book (or the broader subjects I deal with) will change our economic/political life in any way. It’s part of a more universal desire to understand the wider world, apart from any direct practical implications, that I hope will always be with us.
The economic troubles have certainly impacted us; my group is scrambling to find money to support students, after many years of gradual erosion. It’s hard to convince people to support research into basic science when they are impatient for immediate practical results (even if the latter ultimately rely heavily on the former).
I am not sure it fits here, but I’ll throw it in anyway. ‘Just because we don’t know everything, doesn’t mean we don’t know anything.’
Can you talk a bit about the famous “double slit” experiment for photons to flesh that topic out a bit?
The use of naturalness arguments is largely a matter of taste. To me, if we see something about the universe that strikes us as dramatically unnatural, the universe is giving us a valuable clue that we can use to understand things better. If you would like to ignore it, that’s fine — it certainly doesn’t have the impact of a direct disagreement between theory and observation.
Actually that’s exactly what it means in a relativistic universe. The metric for information exchange is light. The limiting factor of that exchange is the speed of light. Once that velocity is exceeded then the basis for information transferal is gone. So no information.
Holography — the idea that the information contained in a three-dimensional region of space can be faithfully represented in a two-dimensional structure — as a deep feature of quantum gravity seems very likely to be true. But I’m personally very skeptical that implications of this idea lead to anything that can be directly measured in a present-day gravity-wave experiment. I’ve been wrong before.
I’ve never heard of GEO600 before this, so I can’t really evaluate it. New Scientist articles are generally in need of at least a pinch of salt, though.
The subject is closed? I think not.
See Penrose: “Shadows of the Mind” pp 239, “The Elitzur-Vaidman bomb test problem.
So far as usefulness, since when has that ever been a consideration in science?
Sounds like something I probably said myself more than once in my life.
One of the challenges which faces scientists as you surely know is a skill set which often doesn’t include marketing and communications. Were we able to help scientists talk about the future market for their theoretical products with better communications, we might see more funding shake loose. Have thought about this for a while; in some ways, it’s like open source software development. When a solid but still-beta product is well-placed in the public agora, it often attracts corporate underwriters and buyers.
Is it possible that an open source forum for more theoretical if fundamental science might be an option in order to draw more funding?
We’re talking past each other.
It’s information lost to the relative observer, not information lost to the whole, which I think is the point.
In another sense, must we speak every language on the planet in order to be able to speak? The answer is no.
Every information bucket needn’t be full for every individual information bucket.
The double-slit doesn’t really get into nonlocality, though it did trouble Einstein with regard to what looks like a superluminal propagation of the collapsing wavefunction. The basic idea is that a stream of particles of light (photons) sent at a pair of two slits will each be detected at a single position on the far side of the slits, exactly as you expect for a particle. If you keep track of a very large number of these photons, though, the total distribution will traces out the pattern of light and dark spots you expect from a classical wave.
In a sense, the photon has gone through both slits at the same time, which is a weird thing for a particle to do. Feynman famously said that the double-slit experiment with electrons gets at everything that is weird about quantum physics. He was pretty close to being right.
I think the way communication happens within academia — at least within theoretical physics — is pretty much an ideal example of open-source thinking. We put papers on a free preprint server ( http://arxiv.org/ ), after which everyone can read them, and improve upon the ideas in their own way and spread the word. It works!
But I don’t think it’s right to think in terms of “theoretical products.” The reason we think about particle physics or the multiverse is because we want to understand how Nature works for its own sake, not because we want to build better stuff. Both impulses are perfectly good, but they’re not the same — and both are worth supporting.
I still remember how fascinated I was 50 years ago by 1 2 3 . . . Infinity.
The Elitzur-Vaidman bomb test problem is perfectly well understood within conventional quantum mechanics, and is entirely consistent with relativity. Roger Penrose is a tremendously smart person, but a lot of people who study quantum phenomena professionally tend to roll their eyes when the subject of The Emperor’s New Mind (and subsequent books) comes up.
But this is not supposed to be about my opinions on quantum physics– you can buy my book for that. Let’s try to keep this about Sean’s book.
Well that’s the best link of the day!
Thanks, Sean!
Getting back to the topic (I’m a little obsessed with quantum stuff these days), another book question for Sean:
You forthrightly state that the multiverse picture isn’t really a scientific theory in the Popperian sense, because it doesn’t make any testable predictions that would allow it to be falsified. Do you have any thoughts on ways it might be tested, or is this condemned to always be metaphysics?
Or just because we don’t know something doesn’t mean it is not there. (simplistic version)
Wow, I thought that was about non-locality. I am obviously mixed up about collapsing wave function, which I think I get through the double slit experiment, and non-locality.
So can you guys please talk a bit more about non-locality? Gracias!
Yes, I hear you about open sharing within academia, but in many respects that’s parallel with open source software development. Money ultimately comes from outside academia and must find some compelling reason for investment; until money meets information, investment support dwindles. Ditto for open source software — if no business knows about it, no acquisition or underwriting. There must be another step in sharing which includes discussion outside academia.
I think that is maybe a better phrasing for what I was trying to elicit. It is clearly important work; how can we help sell it?
To Kelly at #123
But that was the basis of Einstein’s theory of relativity. We are all relative observers. While conceptually we can step outside the physical limits to some extent, in reality as scientists or relative observers we can’t. The information we have is the information we can get. If we can’t get it, it’s not information.
Yeah – like PI to the quadrillionth digit. (Or whatever bigger digit, ’cause maybe the quadrillionth didgit HAS been calculated!)
yea.
As you wish. I’ll leave it by simply saying that no treatise on science exists in splendid isolation.
Physicists and mathematicians have been rolling their eyes at each other for a while now!
The multiverse certainly isn’t a theory, but it’s a prediction of certain theories. (By itself, “hey, maybe there’s a jillion universes!” would be an extremely lame theory.) The point is that certain ways we try to reconcile quantum mechanics and gravity leads us to predict that the universe we see is very much non-representative of the wider universe around us.
That’s a prediction that is very hard to test, of course. So we would like to make other predictions and test them. That’s also hard, but by no means impossible. It’s just a matter of patience — right now we don’t understand quantum gravity well enough to know what the falsifiable predictions of any particular model might be. So we have to work to understand it better. If we try and try for a long time without any discernible progress, people will lose interest and move on. But I’m much more optimistic than that; Nature somehow manages to reconcile gravity with quantum mechanics, so I bet that we’ll eventually figure it out, and subject it to good old-fashioned experiments.
Isn’t this also true of string theory and quantum gravity?
2.7 Trillion digits is most recent from news reports a couple of weeks ago
I think there are tremendous opportunities for cooperation between business and academia — but to be honest, theoretical cosmology doesn’t seem to be one of them. Outside of purely philanthropic motivations, I don’t think there’s a lot of good reason for a corporation that wants to make money to be supporting my work. Which is why almost all of the support for me and my friends comes from the government. It’s a social contract — we take a tiny sliver of tax dollars and give it to some idealistic thinkers, who come back with deep truths about the universe. It’s an important part of what it means to be a healthy and mature society.
Sean, Have you ever had any interaction with Julian Barbour? He has some unortodox theories on time {actually, he thinks it is a bogus concept}.
What do you think of his work?
Well, Sean and his book are one of those links in the process; he’s made what can be very deep and abstract highly accessible.
There’s also a crying need for the public to be pushed to demand more science. This has been starved for years; it’s really grim now with budget cuts in schools at all levels across the country causing schools to draw back any expansions they had in curriculum. We really do need to find a way to encourage an uptick in interest so that when budgets creep back, science is one of the first things receiving funding.
Adults also need to do a much better job and push themselves. Don’t I know it…I’ve been away from calculus for decades and my daughter is deep into calc now, am going to have to go back and study just to help her. There are not enough female role models in the sciences yet, so I have to try harder. I can’t emphasize this enough to other mothers — do more science of your own at home, from math to chemistry. Make your kids hungry for it.
We could probably spend two full hours on non-locality.
The idea is that two quantum systems (polarized photons, say) can be prepared in such a way that their properties are indeterminate but correlated– if one is measured to have a certain polarization, the other will have the same polarization. This correlation is independent of when and where the measurements are made.
This seems like “spooky action at a distance,” in Einstein’s memorable phrase (spukhafte fernwirkung), but it’s actually true. An Irish physicist named John Bell came up with a way to distinguish between the sort of theory Einstein preferred in which both photons have a definite state the whole time, and the full quantum theory where the polarizations are indeterminate until measured. There have been numerous tests of the theory, starting in the 1970′s, and every time, the local hidden variable type of theory Einstein preferred has been ruled out. By something like 100 standard deviations, which is astonishingly good.
Yes, I’ve spoken with Barbour. He’s a very interesting guy, who has managed to do physics outside of academia all his life. But I’m not especially optimistic about his life’s work, which has been to do away with time in the description of fundamental physics. I think time is really useful! More specifically, I think that it’s more illuminating to keep time as part of a fundamental description than to do mathematical manipulations to make it disappear. But I could certainly turn out to be wrong — we’ll see.
Some of this sounds like the tension between art for art’s sake and art for sale.
Every once in awhile, Keith Olbermann has an astronomer on COUNTDOWN. He’s been to the FDL book salon, maybe his producers will remember. Maybe your publisher could get a you five minutes with Keith.
One marginal revenue source might be online education? University of Phoenix and a bunch of their competitors (for profit and not for profit) might want to sell a portion of what you provide as content. Maybe it would be a certificate, not a degree? You’re helping people learn a level of fluency with a new language, so they can continue their education independently. You could use this thread as an example of the interest it generates.
so we’re 0.27% of the way to a quadrillion digits!
The utility of more digits has always escaped me, as measurement isn’t precise enough. Just use the symbol “pi” until you know precision of your measurements, then use an appropriate number of digits.
It does have value in things like finding your phone number or SSN somewhere in the expansion. Geeky humor at it’s best – you want my number – just start at the 2,300,201,100 digit of pi.
As we come to the end of this Book Salon,
Sean, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us discussing your new book and time.
Chad, Thank you very much for Hosting this lively Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t bought Sean’s new book, here is a link.
Thanks all.
And let me tell you, this is an audience, hopefully I’m not speaking out of turn, who is entirely supportive of science and deep thinkers, and who believe it is indeed a social contract that we support those who do this sort of life work.
I really apreciate it.
We’re coming toward the end of the defined book salon time, so I’ll throw out one final process-type question: Are there topics that you wanted to talk about in the book that didn’t make it in for space reasons or other considerations? Anything that got left out because it was too controversial? Can we expect a Special Edition DVD with extra material in the future?
Sorry – but creation is creation – the big bang is creation – and has no explanation not based on faith – like God. Most Math/Physics types (but I am one – MIT ’65 – in the 20% minority) do a construction of “beliefs” – or if you like religion – that under the rules of the religion require some math. But as you say, the proof of any new “science” is the ability to predict something that is useful and not circular or “proven” more simply, and so far there is nothing.
So none of this gives us an expanded ability to predict. Indeed one fellow goes in a circle of gravity equals gravity and is said to have something powerful. Entropy and time go in one direction so one proves the other. QM is cited for creation but the process requires zero point energy in some form – or do we now create energy and skip those old ideas that you can not create energy or mass. Indeed unless we find Higgs we have nothing to explain mass in QM – and even then there are all the lose ends after we discover it. The circle (cone) of time idea yields lovely blow up the system logic.
The QM being a bit of “space time” snipped out of another universe – even if true – just moves the creation back one step. Multi-universe has been the answer since Bell in the 60′s – but he said the number of QM changes since time began – a large – but finite – number – is the number of universes.
QM feels like the particle zoo of the 60′s before Quarks – and now there are those saying we must think of still smaller blocks to start our build of the universe.
When the leading atheists in various countries say they are now deists – albeit believing that God does not act post creation – it seems rather desperate to declare that a priest did not see fit to rest his faith on big bang theory means it has no religious implications. Of course ones faith does not depend on some science concept – by definition one can not prove there is a God – and likewise one can not prove there is NO God – both positions rest on belief – not scientific proof. But to deny that the Big Bang is a creation event is sad.
To pretend that QM explains the creation, a creation event, is sophistry that only works with those that want to pretend because they want to protect their religion of atheism from a concept they can not handle.
I am surprised you did not bring up the wandering 2 dimensions in our many dimension string world getting close to each other so as to do a QM event that results in two arrows of time.
Or the idea that we are a local area that has abnormal characteristics in a universe where more interesting math explains everything.
Granted a slight majority of scientists are not believers in God – but the amazing under 20% number for physics/math folks as believers in God I attribute to the fact they (the other 80-85%) are busy constructing their own religion of things you can not prove but should believe – or at least believe the idea that the ideas lead to ever better math/physics religious beliefs.
Again, while this math/physics religion has produced much that leads the followers to believe that given time they can explain everything, I see no hope of useful real world knowledge from this desperate attempt to deny the creation event – via we can make up our own beliefs based on the lack of logic – it just happens that way -in QM. With beliefs we can not prove we can deny that there are things we can not now and never will be able to explain – like creation – a sad lack of logic IMO.
Take the decreasing size of black holes as an example.
Although we cannot observe this interaction between the forces at the edges of the boundary of a singularity, there is a measurable effect on surrounding matter which allow us to infer the exchange of particles from virtual to real particles with negative energy.
The lack of observable phenomena is no doubt disappointing, but it does not suggest that those interactions did not occur. And the decreasing size of a black hole, while too distance and diffuse to observe, is no less reflected in it’s effects on surrounding space. If the universe is in a quantum state, where every particle interaction is effected by every other, it is not lost, but simply unavailable (at present) to be evaluated.
Likewise, in the tree example, when that tree falls, whether it is observed or not, the after-effects are observable. They are not lost – the tree ceases to be a living tree, but it is no less corporeal in the microbial consequences. In this particular example, it is observable, though.
The consequences of its existence are reflected by its surroundings.
I think it’s similar, although even the most speculative-seeming science has a way of eventually leading to practical uses. (General relativity is crucial for timing in GPS navigation systems.) And of course, cutting-edge science remains more expensive than cutting-edge art. But both are part of what elevates our lives above the simple tasks of comfort and survival.
You could call it a Non-Uniqueness Postulate. If something happens once, it can happen again. Not in the sense that Beethoven and somebody else could write the same symphony but that more like the processes that created one proton could produce more.
Seems it was just a preliminary suspicion
Hartmut Grote:
That has to be supported in the school as well. I decided on engineering rather than science for my career because I had a very boring physics teacher in high school. Then once I went out to work, I saw that teacher was unfortunate. I worked at Argonne National labs,where the physics and physicists were exciting!
It’s a pretty long book, so I think I managed to cover the major points I wanted to cover. Given even more space (and time), I might have covered them in a lot more detail — there’s always more to say. In particular, I have fun in Chapter 9 talking about information theory, complexity, and life. There’s a huge amount more to say there; but I would have to learn it all before saying anything about it. That’s something I’m looking forward to doing in the near future.
Selling a country deep in recession (depression, if you ask me) on taxes to pay for theoretical science is a toughie.
Hence the need for communications; businesses need to see a benefit to their brand in supporting sciences.
Just noticed 3M Scotch brand at Discovery.com’s site for science projects this afternoon — a two-fer. Discovery creates and hosts content based on a breadth of science including theoretical cosmology; 3M Scotch sees a connection between a portion of that content and their brand and underwrites part of the site. What’s needed is a tighter link between Discovery and academia, so that academia gets a better cut.
Agreed completely!
Things like giving talks in Second Life are good outreach. Monetizing it is harder.
Increasing interest and literacy in science is rewarding in a peer esteem sense. But it doesn’t pay the way for graduate education… and undergraduate education is increasingly unaffordable as well. I’m not sure how useful going on Countdown or Colbert is for generating scholarships or research assistantship positions, and that’s seems to be where the economic crunch is hitting.
Time is running out, so — thanks everyone for a stimulating and enthusiastic conversation!
http://eternitytohere.com/
http://cosmicvariance.com/
http://preposterousuniverse.com/
The number of URL’s, like entropy, only increases with time.
Fermilab is doing it with stimulus money, in part anyway.
The cost to taxpayers of theoretical science is pretty low. Experimental science, on the other hand…
(Old academic joke: The Dean calls in the chair of the physics department and says “You people are too expensive, with all this lab equipment. Why can’t you be more like the mathematicians? All they need is pencils, paper, and wastepaper baskets. Or better yet, the philosophers. They just need pencils and paper.”)
Cynthia Kouril is upstairs!
The White House needs to butt out- Leave it to DOJ and the Judicial Branch
We seem to have reached the end. Thanks very much to Sean, and to all of you for a fascinating discussion. And, if you’ll permit me my own bit of shameless commerce: How to Teach Physics to Your Dog, available wherever books are sold..
Thanks again.
It’s been accepted for a while I think that information is not lost in black holes. It might be misplaced but it does come back. But with Hubble expansion, and in the absence of a Big Crunch (which with dark energy looks less and less likely0, that information is gone.
Do you have a version for cats?
brings to mind the engineering joke:
An engineer, a physicist and a mathematician are given a problem – a room with the curtains on fire, a bucket and a water source.
The engineer goes in the room, fills the bucket with water and dumps it on the fire, putting out the fire.
The physicist goes in the room, observes the size of the fire and bucket, calculates that filling the bucket half full will be sufficient, fills bucket half full and puts out the fire.
The mathematician goes in the room, observes the fire, the bucket and the water source, and leaves the room saying there is a solution.
You need to go back and read Sean’s 40, because you didn’t get it. The prime mover argument is trumped by the ontological argument. One of several problems with both is that we cannot adequately imagine what constitutes the JudaeoXtian understanding of God.
I say all this to you as someone who is a theist.
Start with Paul Tillich: Faith is a centered act of being ultimately concerned.
The existence of God is not something that can be proven or disproven. It is ALWAYS an article of faith.
Oh, most definitely. Believe me, while struggling with a math problem for my kid the other night I kept having flashbacks of my dreadful calculus teacher. Dry, dull, unappetizing material by the time she was done with it, and unfortunately I think scarred me. (The really sorry part was that she was one of a very few female academics in math at the time.)
But demanding and expecting better science at home while learning how to make it fun sets up the chance we’ll make and shape better future teachers.
Cats can use the existing version, as seen in the pet gallery.
The theories are that it is not ‘lost’ but unidentifiable as to form.
That said, the interactions with surrounding matter and fields do point to the regular observance of entropy at the boundaries.
Hawking did a lot of work on this, to the chagrin of his peers who eventually accepted his math. The matter or whatever it is is not lost in any sense, just converted to a more or less energetic form.
Thanks for the reply. I was not clear in my comment. The idea to go on COUNTDOWN was solely to sell more books.
My favorite variant of the joke is: an experimental physicist and a mathematician are walking down the road, when they come to a house with its porch on fire. The physicist spots a hose, connects it to the faucet, and puts out the fire.
The next day, the mathematician is walking alone and comes to a house with a hose spraying water onto the lawn. He thinks for a moment, then disconnects it from the faucet and sets the porch on fire, thereby reducing it to a previously solved problem.
LOL! Might have to share that one when the engineer-spouse gets home.
Thank you and Sean again for being here today, appreciate it greatly.
Look forward with the arrow of time to opportunities to visit with you both about science in the future.
Hah! :)
Yes but the observable universe is not a blackhole. We can observe effects as you say on local portions of the universe. This is not possible at the edge of the observable universe, where the Hubble expansion exceeds c. There are no local phenomena but there is an event horizon.
I’m still wrestling with how to separate information from gravity after reading Sean’s book.
If the universe was dense and confined and lower entropy at origin, with gravity “thinning” and more diffuse as information and entropy increase, what is the relationship of gravity and information?
Are black holes points at which gravity and information invert — more gravity again, but little information?
Going to have re-read the chapter again where “conservation of information” and time reversal are discussed.
Thanks.
Hawking’s “A Brief History of Time” is astounding clear on this as a primer. Thermodynamics and entropy explained for ‘us’.
Well then too there is the question of cosmic inflation where I would assume that the size of the universe increased but its entropy did not.
Jim White’s diary is front-paged!
How can there be a conspiracy when everyone is complicit?
The sound of one hand clapping…….
What is the relationship between space, time, mind, matter, living, dying and, say, health care reform?
Does anyone here believe science will ever concoct a TOE that encompasses this?
And if there is a TOE would not that then obviate human autonomy?
How would our speculations about therse things not just be an inherent component of determinism?
Ring a bell?
No – YOU need to go back and read Sean’s 40 – he denies that creation did occur, is not explainable by science, and has logical – as in religious – implications.
The ontological argument (if we can conceive of the greatest possible being, then it must exist – the “assertion fallacy” or “circular argument”), is not what is discussed – it is creation and science having no tools to address it – but scientist in fact using the “ontological argument” to posit their new religion (science will solve or explain everything despite the recent prise winning proof that there are problems that science can not solve). Indeed the entropy/time construct, the there is no dimension called time construct, the 2 arrows of time construct, the gravity is gravity (my favorite with wandering dimensions making a QM event a close second) are all ontological argument. Indeed I am amazed that others are impressed that the math from A to B works – guess they forget they in effect defined A as B.
I agree we can not “adequately imagine what constitutes the JudaeoXtian understanding of God” – everyone’s faith is unique to themselves – and I do not begrudge the “atheist” or “scientific” faith folks their beliefs – just don’t tell me your beliefs are “science” and therefore “logical” – based on Falsifiability or refutability where the logical possibility that the assertion can be shown false by an observation or a physical experiment has been shown.
Paul Tillich: Faith is a centered act of being ultimately concerned is one of many interesting books on faith – there are others I agree with – but we agree “The existence of God is not something that can be proven or disproven. It is ALWAYS an article of faith.” – as is the belief that there is no God.
Finally – creation is – well – creation. Folks must learn to deal with that fact. Post creation math needs work – the effort should be in this area where the logic might actually led to something productive. The attempts to blur creation is a waste of my contributions to my and others colleges. Bell’s work in the 60′s really has not been improved on – a valid alternative explanation of QM is multiple universes – the current work being discussed adds nothing to the discussion.