[Welcome Joseph Stiglitz, and Host William Black.] [As a courtesy to our guests, please keep comments to the book. Please take other conversations to a previous thread. - bev]
Freefall:America, Free Markets, and the Sinking of the World Economy
By Joseph E. Stiglitz (Nobel Laureate, Economics 2001)
William K. Black, Associate Professor of Economics and Law, University of Missouri – Kansas City
This book is about a battle of ideas, about the ideas that led to the failed policies that precipitated the crisis and about the lessons we take away from it (p. xii).
Anyone seeking to explain this “battle of ideas” must address three questions:
- What “ideas” are producing environments in so many nations that create the perverse incentives that have led to recurrent intensifying crises in many nations?
- Why did these ideas become dominant in so many nations?
- Why have these ideas become more dominant even as they have produced greater crises?
Stiglitz’ answers to these questions are:
- Neoclassical economics has become ferociously anti-governmental. Financial markets, absent effective regulation, generate perverse incentives that cause crises.
- The United States, through our universities and through institutions such as the International Monetary Fund (IMF), exports neoclassical economics and economists to the world and gives them the power to set policy in most nations.
- Stiglitz suggests several reasons why economists have become ever more married to their models as they fail spectacularly. Self-interest and power are part of the answer (p. 42). Neoclassical economists are useful to big finance because they are willing to give the wrong answers. The more that reality falsifies their models, the more valuable neoclassical economists are to big finance in fending off regulation, in creating models that overvalue assets (allowing huge bonus payments), and in claiming that the prices their own models generate after the crisis should be disregarded because the problem isn’t asset quality, but rather liquidity and market confidence (p. 48). Economists have become financial holocaust creators and deniers.
- But Stiglitz’s primary argument is that anti-regulatory economists have remained intellectually dishonest for the saddest of reasons – they lack the courage to admit that their theories have been falsified and that the policies they have championed caused the crises (p. 48).
Stiglitz documents America (and much of the world’s) descent into crony capitalism (pp. 41-42, 122). He explains that while other bankrupt firms settle claims on credit default swaps (CDS) at 13 cents on the dollar, Paulson and the Fed pressured AIG to pay favored systemically dangerous institutions (SDIs) such as Goldman Sachs 100 cents on the dollar – with the public bearing the cost of this secret subsidy (p. 49). His broader point is that the neoclassical triumph in the battle of ideas (and its triumphalism about winning the battle) led not to the promised utopia of efficient, stable markets and growth, but rather to economic stagnation for the middle class, a catastrophic fall for the working class, and recurrent crises.
Stiglitz emphasizes that none of this is due to bad luck. The Great Recession was not analogous to the “100 year flood.” Crises have happened in a broad range of nations because when finance becomes unregulated it becomes vastly too large and too powerful and uses its power to corrupt or evade restraints on its power. This means that crony capitalism is a severe danger and will often occur.
- Their victory over America was total. Each victory gave them more money with which to influence the political process. They even had an argument: deregulation had led them to make more money, and money was the mark of success. Q.E.D. (p. 10).
Stiglitz emphasizes that finance can become hyper-dominant in a broad range of political settings throughout the world. One of his most candid themes is that the Obama administration continued Bush’s policy of crony capitalism (pp. 46-49).
This book is weakest in providing a concrete explanation of the mechanism that caused this, and prior, crises. Stiglitz appropriately identifies three aspects of why the ideas he criticizes produce an environment that causes crises:
- Deregulation, (and, even more, desupervision)
- Modern compensation (executive and “agents”, e.g., outside auditors, rating agencies, and appraisers)
- Accounting. Criminologists recognize that accounting is the “weapon of choice” for financial frauds and that the first two elements interact to optimize an environment for accounting fraud.
The tension is that Stiglitz refers primarily to “risk” and views the difference between “gambling” and fraud as being a “fine line” (p. 125), using the S&L debacle as his example (p. 125) and citing Ed Kane and George Akerlof and Paul Romer, respectively, for this proposition. But this misreads what Akerlof & Romer wrote and it misses the fact that they wrote later than Kane with the benefit of dramatically better data that disproved Kane’s hypothesis that the debacle was primarily caused by (honest) “gambling for resurrection” by already insolvent S&Ls (Black 2005). As the national commission into the causes of the S&L debacle found, at “the typical large failure” “fraud was invariably present.” (“Traditional” S&Ls did engage in honest gambles for resurrection by only moderately reducing their exposure to interest rate risk in 1983-86. They won those gambles when interest rates fell sharply, which sharply reduced the cost of resolving the debacle. Note that they reduced rather than expanded their risk exposure – contrary to the “gambling” hypothesis.)
Akerlof & Romer’s title says it all: “Looting: Bankruptcy for Profit.” They agreed with the insight that regulators and criminologists had reached about the debacle – fraud is a “sure thing.” A lending institution that follows the classic four-part strategy for optimizing accounting fraud is mathematically guaranteed to report record profits:
- Grow rapidly
- Make loans regardless of the borrower’s ability to repay (this is essential to being able to grow rapidly while charging a premium yield)
- Extreme leverage
- Grossly inadequate loss reserves
The “typical” large nonprime lender failure during this crisis fits this pattern. The first three parts of the strategy are well known, but loss reserves have been ignored in discussions of the crisis. Overall, loss reserves fell to “record lows” for four straight years even as (1) the FBI warned in September 2004 that there was an “epidemic” of mortgage fraud (and predicted that it would produce an economic crisis if it were not contained), (2) underwriting standards disappeared (which is deliberate and essential to part two of the optimization strategy), and (3) warnings of the housing bubble became common and strident. Each of these factors should have led to far larger loss reserves, collectively they should have led to loss reserves so large that the lenders would have had to report that nonprime lending was (in economic reality) unprofitable. Instead, loss reserves virtually disappeared. Again, this is not an issue of a “fine line.” We are talking about loss reserves that were two orders of magnitude too small.
So I would add another reason why economists have been so blind to the causes of these crises – they have been taught from their freshman year that accounting doesn’t matter (efficient markets must “see through” accounting) and that no rational person would base a business decision on accounting. In reality, accounting fraud routinely cons financial markets and accounting is the primary driver of decisions by financial firms.
The biggest story in the bailout is barely known because it is an accounting story. The big banks, with Bernanke’s support, used their political muscle to cause Congress to extort FASB to gut the accounting rules so that lenders did not have to recognize their loan losses. Absent that rule change, the banking “profits” would have been losses and they would not have been able to pay themselves over a$100 billion in executive bonuses.



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Joseph, Welcome to the Lake.
William, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Hello. We’re going live. Here is my first question:
1. If you were able to write an additional chapter now, what would the key point(s) be given developments since the time at which you wrote Freefall?
Best,
Bill Black
Thanks for the opportunity. Joe’s book exceeds all the cliches about being timely and essential to understanding the crisis. It’s a great opportunity for FDL followers to ask him questions.
Bill
Thanks so much Bill, and welcome Dr. Stiglitz.
I liveblogged your appearance before the Financial Services Committee last week. You were talking about how corporations are creations of the state and we can regulate what they do as the SCOTUS decision was coming down.
How do you see this ruling impacting an already bad situation?
Here is Joseph’s CSPAN – Friday’s House Financial Services Hearing on Exec. Compensation
Jane, I’ll give you my take on the decision. The fundamental flaw goes way back to the Slaughterhouse cases (over 100 years ago) when the S. Ct. ruled that corporations were “persons.”
Bill
Wwlcome Dr, Stiglitz.
1. The publisher did an amazing job in bringing the book to the market quickly, so it’s pretty up to date. The one thing that has happened is the new tax on big banks and the new (proposed) regulations. It almost seems as if those in the Obama administration had read Chapter 6. They are moves in the right direction–but they don’t go far enough.
I would have explained why tax incentives are not as likely to be effective as they would have been in the “traditional” economists’ models, because of the kinds of “agency” problems that I discuss in chapter 1.
Charles Keating, the most infamous “control fraud” of the S&L debacle, was able to recruit five U.S. Senators as his most valuable allies with under $3 million in political contributions (mostly soft money — already unlimited). The S. Ct’s recent decision takes all the campaign finance limits off. Congress, of course, could pass public finance of elections and could ban members that receive contributions from sitting on committees, or voting, on matters related to the sources of any contribution greater than say $10,000.
Bill
Welcome to the Lake, Dr Stiglitz
As a technical note, there is a “Reply” button in the lower right hand of each comment. By pressing “Reply” you can pre-fill the name of the commenter and comment number to whom you are replying (this helps save a few key strokes and allows all to follow the conversation.
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Superb review, William. Welcome Joseph.
Assuming politics remains as it is (or gets worse, given the recent SCOTUS Citizens United decision), what’s the endgame of all this? Assuming we don’t fix this, how does it all play out?
Hello Joseph! Thanks for the opportunity to read and commment on your latest book.
Bill
The Supreme Court decision seemingly allowing corporations to make unfettered campaign contributions makes a bad situation even worse. In my book, I describe the political influence that the banks have had. They may not have done a good job in investing their financial wealth, but they did a really good job in getting a high return out of their political investments. they got the deregulation that put the entire world economy at risk; then they got the bailout on unbelievably favorable terms; and now, they seem to be resisting imposing new regulations. For most Americans, it was obvious that something had to be done to prevent a recurrence; yet so far the big banks have been successful in beating back any effective regulatory system.
The fundamental point that the Court missed is that corporations are not people; they are something we created. They are not endowed with inalienable rights, like people are. We can decide on the rights, and responsibilities, which they must bear.
What an honor to have you both here, thanks for this book salon.
good day, sir
Have you noticed any positive changes in IMF’s practices since 1998, when it was revealed that Sec. Geithner’s prescriptions for Indonesia willfully ignored Suharto regime’s well documented Human rights violations?
I ask this question because I have an uncomfortable feeling that the American public may be looking at IMF like austerity measures.
there are other things that Congress can do. It can require a shareholder vote before spending any money on campaign contributions.
Welccome Bill Black and Dr. Stiglitz. Just wanted to call folks attention to Dr. Stiglitz’ fine article in Mother Jones, “Moral Bankruptcy,” which expands on the moral/criminal issues Bill Black raises. E.g.,
. . . which suggests that the accounting frauds of the Enron/CountryWide eras were pervasive and still present, and that a large part of the crisis was premised on lawless behavior.
Stiglitz talks about the moral decay that has now captured America’s “ersatz capitalism,” so the question is, how do we reverse that, and are the various regulatory fixes and taxes proposed by Obama, Bair, and the financial bills in Congress going to be enough?
Joe, you also discuss why fiscal stimulus is critical in a recession and allude to why IMF policies have been so destructive. President Obama has just come out in favor of a “fiscal responsibility” panel that seems designed to adopt IMF-style economic reasoning. What’s your take on that proposal?
Bill
Wow! Oh, pardon my manners. Welcome, Dr. Stiglitz!
The problems with the US response to the East Asia’s crisis were manifold–some similar to the mismanagement of the US crisis, some which stand in contrast. In Indonesia, the IMF shut down 16 banks, announced that more would be shut down, and, not surprisingly, there was panic–but evidently the lessons weren’t learned. As I explain in my book, there is an uncanny similarity between this episode and the mismanagement of Lehman Brothers.
On the other hand, in East Asia, we (IMF and US treasury) insisted on cutting expenditures and raising interest rates–and no bailouts–just the opposite of what was done in the U.S. Not surprisingly, this has engendered enormous resentment within the developing world.
The IMF more recently has changed its stance, at least in some countries, supporting more expansionary fiscal and monetary policies.
Great to see you here Mr. Stiglitz.
Questions about the “agencies” and underwriting:
– I figured out a long time ago that FICO scores are basically percentages. Back when I was working as an appraiser, Fannie/Freddie had min FICO requirements of 660 (66% probability), and sometimes there would be specials where the score would be lowered to 640. It just came to my attention that one can get a conforming loan with standard underwriting terms at 580 (58%). This is just barely better than a coin toss in my opinion, and do you see that the same way?
-FICO; there credit risk scoring system is proprietary. For them and other proprietary modelers, my opinion is that the model components should be available to review. WHat’s your stand on that?
Thanks!
WHAT an honor-thank you for this rare opportunity,gentlemen.
“The big banks, with Bernanke’s support, used their political muscle to cause Congress to extort FASB to gut the accounting rules so that lenders did not have to recognize their loan losses.”
Would it be indelicate to ask your opinions of a “second helping” of Bernanke?
Would that be effective? From my viewpoint I can see the shareholders approving such expenditures with little or no debate.
The danger is that we have an economy increasingly shaped by corporate interests–which means both a less efficient economy and one marked with much more inequality.
More from Stiglitz’ Mother Jones article:
If immoral behavior is not illegal, than the justice system is disabled. And yet isn’t this exactly what the finance industry is doing today to gut the Finance Reform bills, to emasculate or kill the Consumer Finance Protection Agency? And we seem to have people like Chris Dodd helping in that effort — and his replacement would be worse?
How do we overcome this immense pressure to decriminalized outrageous behavior?
might that depend on how many people of conscience play the markets ?
Clearly, what has been proposed so far is not enough. Interestingly, in my book, I argue that what is needed is a reform of our politics–including campaign finance reform–moving exactly in the opposite direction to that taken by the Supreme Court this week.
One of the points I emphasize in my book is that the banks’ incentive structures led them to undertake excessive risk taking, imposing huge costs on the rest of us, even as they walked off with millions. But there was something worse: one would have hoped that their conscience would have stopped them from their predatory lending and other exploitive practices. Economists like to say that everyone has their price. In the go go era of finance, evidently, for too many people that price was exceeded.
It seems to me there are some potential implications to that.
Will the US be anything but a bloated military enforcing the current global structure, for the benefit of the elite financiers? At some point China, or BRIC, or someone will no longer put up with this. As middle class disappears, as US corporations continue to be shielded from real markets (and therefore continue to grow flabbier), then what?
I guess I’m suggesting that the logical end point to your argument is that corporations will become truly dominant to the state, leaving average people exposed with none of the protections the state used to provide. At some point we’re talking abotu a change in global structure that could accelerate.
Yes, I love the piece. Fraud and risk-taking are very different activities. Fraud inherently creates severe problems. Markets do no reward all risks. When you bet against the House in Vegas you are taking large risks but the expected value of your wager is sharply negative. When a competent mortgage lender takes risks it evaluates and reduces those risks through underwriting. The result is that the expected value of their activity is positive. Fraudulent mortgage lenders must gut their underwriting systems (and suborn their internal and external controls). One result is that they create intense “adverse selection” — which produces a sharply negative expected value. But it also produces guaranteed, record “profits” in the short run (and intermediate run if many lenders follow the same policy and create a bubble). The “agents” win, both principals lose. (Reverse Pareto optimality.) Fraud is a sure thing for the unfaithful agent. Honest firms never operate in this fashion. What I’ve been emphasizing is that the “epidemic” of mortgage fraud (FBI 2004) inherently produces accounting and securities fraud by whatever entity purchases the product.
I also agree with you that the moral component is critical and ignored in business schools.
Bill
wrt Bill Black’s concern about accounting — some time ago, there was a dispute over mark-to-market, vs mark to model or other standards, and IIRC, Congress, under pressure from banks, pressured the standard setters to fold and let Wall Street do what they wanted. Is that a fair characterization? And is this still the case? Where is the leverage to fix that?
Dr. Stiglitz;
Many here are profoundly appreciative of your ideas and insights.
What is your sense of the likelihood that the democratic leadership, including the President might actually do what is necessary?
We produce little actual wealth and the epiphitic classes clearly do not know when enough (blatant) theft is enough.
Essentially, these classes are bullies (and often, in my opinion, sociopathic) in their behaviors.
Is there any possibility that the obvious will become evident to the powers-that-be in a manner that will work to the benefit of the majority of human beings in this nation or in the entire world for that matter?
As you know, Corporate personhood is our gift to the world.
And it certainly looks to keep on giving … disaster, destruction and even depression (of several sorts).
DW
*sigh* why are none of the books I want to read ever available on Kindle? Hurry up postman.
I’m on record as a strong opponent of reappointing Dr. Bernanke as Fed Chair.
Bill
Banrey Frank made a suggestion that the House Banking Comittee could look at the privileges granted corporations, such as limited liability, and use these to control the corporations “influence”.
What are your thoughts on such controls?
I hope that he emphasizes that what matters is not just the size of the deficit, but what we do with the money. If we spend money today to stimulate the economy in ways which create assets (investments in technology, education, and infrastructure), though the deficit in the short run may increase, the national debt in the long run will be lowered. Under reasonable assumptions, all that is required is a 6% return–and historically, these public investments yield far higher returns.
The financial sector demonstrated what happens when you act in an excessively short sighted way. I hope that President Obama doesn’t give into the kind of short sighted thinking that the deficit hawks are advocating.
In the few instances where people of conscience have tried to limit CEO compensation at the annual shareholder soiree they have not prevailed. Shareholder’s financial interests are identical to the corporation’s interests imo.
Corporations are King.
“L’Etat c’est Moi”,
et c’est tout.
I had read somewhere that the Basel Accords ,particularly Basel II, had been the impetus for loosening the requirement for ACTUAL tangible reserves to cover loans.
Am I in error on this?
Welcome to the Lake Mr. Black and Dr. Stiglitz!
I wondered who you thought did the best job of representing ordinary citizens? Which institutions, which individuals? How can we support them?
Also, what is the very best retort to “free” market apostles who are really advocating for lawless behavior? I find it difficult to play any game if there aren’t any rules. It’s easy to win when you cheat!
Forgive me if the answer is obvious – I haven’t read your book (yet). thank you.
How will the next bailout work?
The expansion is not likely to be strong enough to get interest rates up enough to provide much monetary stim at the next crash.
And fiscal stim would be limited by the size of the budget deficit and the burgeoning boomer draw on SS & Medicare. (Well, maybe. That new fiscal responsibility commission is a dagger aimed that those programs.) And even more so, an increasing abhorance of deficits.
For-profit government (collusion that enables corporations to shape policy) generates perverse incentives that cause crises, not an anti-government neoclassical economics. No?
This is exactly my concern as well. In addition, instead of being taxed by govt for the “common good” we are taxed by corps for CEO good.
Dr. Stiglitz:
What is your position on Ben Bernanke? Do you think he should continue in his role? Do you have others you think would be better?
There is clearly a need for much more transparency throughout the financial system.
The models used by the financial sector have been shown to perform very badly. There were some obvious mistake; some mistakes were more subtle.
One of the reasons that it is proving difficult to get the securities markets for mortgages going again is that no one trusts the models–and for good reason.
And who do you propose replacing him with?
It takes more than conscience and will power for cracks addicts to control themselves…that’s my analogy anyway. Greed is an addiction.
You won’t find many Bernanke supporters here.
There is only one check–and that is through the democratic process.
Most Americans understand how they have been scammed by the credit card companies. They understand why their is a need for an agency devoted to protecting them that is not controlled by Wall Street. that’s why we need a Financial Products Safety Commission. But unfortunately, most of the banks have been exempted. Pressure your Congressman to reverse that decisioin.
Do you have an opinion about Gruber’s model, indicating that wages would go up with a health care excise tax?
The administration seems to have given up on new stimulus measures, but what about revenue sharing? The states, with their balanced budget mandates, can’t run a deficit, so they are continuing to cut jobs. Is there any hope for effective measures?
In last week’s Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission hearings, several of the state/local witnesses made the points that (1) federal regulators were persistent in expanding federal preemption, thus crippling the ability of state regulators and/or state attorneys general to enforce securities laws and other consumer protection statutes and (2) even where the feds retained jurisdiction, they refused to exercise their oversight authority.
Do you see the current efforts at reform in Congress making those conditions better or worse? What should we be watching?
When you speak of perverse incentives, it seems that yield to maturities are now ordered on a hyper exponential scale of $1,000:$1M:$1B
First, returns from building real wealth in the economy where human beings live, earn, pay taxes, invest and consume goods and services.
Second, globalized financialization where the highest returns come from opaque, leveraged derivative plays, at least on paper. As these players don’t have the assets to back up their losses; this is wealth invention rather than the first case of wealth creation.
Third, considering last week’s SCOTUS decision, the returns that come from completely capturing & exploiting the system of governance that defines this society.
So this is so, what future do you see for the regular economy?
Isn’t this just a larger case of the Phillipines under Marcos?
SCOTUS declared democracy unlawful last week in Citizens United.
Perhaps I am an optimist, but I believe that, before we reach that sorry state of affairs, there will be a voters revolt. Americans are beginning to grasp that things are not going so well: for most Americans, incomes, adjusted for inflation, are lower today than they were a decade ago. There is greater insecurity.
Eventually, they will look around the world and see what is happening elsewhere.
Basel II was awful. Fortunately, U.S. regulatory agencies delayed its implementation (which is one of the key reasons why leverage at European banks is even more out of control). Three key failures of Basel II were:
1. It deliberately sought to reduce capital requirements for large banks
2. It relied on rating agencies’ ratings of toxic mortgage derivatives to create an ultra-low capital requirement for mortgage product on which losses are now running at 75-85 cents on the dollar
3. It encouraged the largest banks to determine asset valuations (and capital levels/requirements) on proprietary financial models. Such models
A) are always going to overstate values and understate risk because designing them to do so is in the interest of those in charge of their design and
B) I can tell you as a former senior regulator that such proprietary models cannot be effectively examined by any examination force in the world
Bill
Like Haiti.
There’s this guy named Stiglitz….
There are other empty seats on the Fed. I’d sent Jamie Galbraith along with Joe.
Bill
As I explain in my book, when the banks’ books started looking worse and worse, they put pressure to change the accounting rules, so they could keep “impaired” mortgages (those that are, for instance, delinquent) on their books as if they were going to be eventually repaid. I called this marking to hope.
There is some glimmer of hope in the announcements in the past two weeks concerning the too big to fail banks. The initiatives are moves in the right direction–but they still don’t go far enough
I hope that’s correct, but so far: (1) the “revolt” is to elect people who are adamantly opposed to using the power of government to rein in corporate abuse and (2) Americans seem to be unable to see the rest of the world as providing useful examples — see health care debate and how all other govt-based/regulated system were demonized.
Your internationalist experience tells you to look abroad; America’s “exceptionalism” tells them not to.
I am an optimist by nature, too. However, when I see both parties protecting their corporate sponsors, when I listen to lies in the media, when I observe “tea parties” sponsored by PTB, I wonder how in the world we can harness our fury to take back our government and representation. I don’t know how many have the same understanding of WHY everything is going to hell in a handbasket.
Thank you so much for your reply.
You are the first to ever answer that question on these financial book salons.
A few of your points could theoretically be applied to the HCR “proprietary” model run by Jonathan Gruber,imho.
I think the fundamental pt. were all missing is that this ruling isn’t about speech at all. It’s about reducing the political process to just another marketplace commodity. The five reactionary Justices simply don’t believe buying political influence is a crime or should be one because in their view politicians are just a kind of political brokerage selling political favors as if they’re just any other commodity in the marketplace. Maybe, what we need is an exchange where politicians can sell their wares and trade themselves like the Corps. they’re selling their wares to. You could then short a Pol if he’s looking less powerful etc. or maybe even buy shares in him or her? certainly, a class of Corporatist pols were already doing this in a kind of grey market. Who knows maybe the banks could package these guys like CDOs and then… you see where I’m going with this. Welcome to the lake Dr.Stiglitz !!
My concern is that the biggest force channeling that anger is the Tea Baggers. It’s not clear to me that Americans will be encouraged to channel their anger in a productive fashion, particularly so long as the Democrats refuse to do so.
Yeah, but will our leaders accept anyone who gives a damn about ordinary citizens?
Congress’ proposed language would also bar the agency from requiring firms to offer plain vanilla financial products or to require suitability standards for the non-vanilla product. This is insane on multiple dimensions. First, the overwhelming bulk of the non-vanilla product should not exist — it adds no value (as Volcker emphasizes). Second, virtually all of us (and this includes me) should only invest in plain vanilla.
Bill
Why did Basel II do that? Captured by banksters?
I was wondering if you’d say that.
And yeah, I know there are other open seats. I hadn’t thought of Galbraith, but I do like the suggestion.
I agree that something should be done. Limited liability is an important construct. But it can be abused. We should, for instance, hold corporation officers accountable for actions taken by the corporation, e.g. when corporations break the law.
But there are other reforms that are necessary to make corporations more responsible, most importantly, improving corporate governance. There should, for instance, be “say in pay.” they are not a panacea for the many problems facing corporations, but they would help
… “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.”
JK Galbraith
Are they willing? More importantly, does Mr Obama have what it takes to appoint somebody with a different plan?
every game requires rules and referrees, and this is also true for the market game. Even Adam Smith, the apostle of Free Market economics, recognized this.
The Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC) deveoted all of its passion to preempting state efforts to protect against predatory lenders. So look to see whether President Obama asks for Dugan’s resignation and replaces him with someone that will reverse OCC policies.
Bill
Yet it amounts, in point of actual fact, to “much talk, little do.”
However, thank you, Dr, Stiglitz for the hope, a term bantered ’round rather too loosely of late.
Trust is an issue.
The political classes might as well live in another universe so far as their understanding or apparent concern about that issue is concerned.
I think it time to suggest that the bad actors must face consequence, as I cannot see how trust may otherwise be established, not re-established, for it is gone …
DW
Well, do you address the offshoring of taxes,and the use of TIFS,REITS and all forms of US tax subsidies given to corporate baggers who then turn around and take their companies elsewhere-and fire American workers?
Thanks, I’m going to look up a key Adam Smith quote or tenet and make it my mantra for those who want to run through the gambling hall and grab all the chips.
Trust but verify,DW.
*G*
I think that there is often a marked difference between shareholder interest and the interests of the CEO. In fact, in a large fraction of mergers, shareholders lose out, even if they result in the CEO pay increasing.
The problem is that an increasing fraction of shares are owned by pension funds and other “fiduciaries” who either don’t vote, or vote with the management. More transparency would help. If workers knew how those who are responsible for managing their pension funds vote, for instance on executive compensatiion, the votes might be different.
Wink!
Basel II excludes public interest representatives (unless you consider the financial regulatory agencies under Clinton and Bush to have represented the public interest — and Joe’s book explains why this is false) and encouraged active industry participation in standard setting. The reliance on rating agencies is particularly difficult to understand because the Basel process is dominated by economists and I’ve almost never met an economist (even before the crisis) that didn’t hold the rating agencies in professional contempt.
Bill
You’re right: given the size of the national debt and the blowing up of the Fed’s balance sheet, we’ve used up much of our “ammunition.” If there is another crisis, we’ll have a hard time responding.
Still, we could have engineered the bail-out in a way which, in the long run, would have reduced our national debt; we could have managed the stimulus in a way which, in the long run, would have reduced our national debt.
Next time around, hopefully we’ll have learned these lessons. And with less money to throw around, we’ll be much more careful in how we spend it.
Yeah, the question is, why is that guy still there? Is Dugan a pleasure appointee? Or fixed term, as is usual for quasi-independent regulators?
How can the common person protect him/her self when investing their IRA or other funds? We have to save for retirement and the money has to go somewhere. Is anywhere safe from the looters?
Not merely greater transparency but greater participation.
Too many decisions, many of life and death import, are ripped from the hands of the people and decided by those who profit, from war to how and by whom our food is grown and kept safe.
The “problem” of failure (often deliberate and intentional) is ubiquitous.
Adam Smith warned that unfaithful agents were the norm in corporations of his day.
Bill
Unfortunately, that would require a total ideological inversion of the currently operative Obama position.
It is obvioius that Ben Bernanke did not prevent the economy from going to the brink of disaster. he espoused many of the same flawed theories that got the economy into trouble–you can’t tell a bubble until it breaks, the Fed doesn’t have instruments to deflate the bubble, it’s better to fix the problem afterwards than to thrwart the economy beforehand.
his ability to forecast has also been called into question. He said that the problems that were evident earlier in the subprime market were contained. he said that the problem was on the mend, even as the difficulties were getting worse.
On the other hand, many are thankful that he pulled us back from the brink–even if the Fed was largely responsible for being so close to the edge.
I am also disturbed by the lack of transparency in many of the Fed’s actions, its refusal to acknowledge that it is accountable (subject to the Freedom of Information Act), and its failure to deal with the obvious problems in its governance (which I discuss in my book.)
I rather like this Adam Smith quote:
but for a different reason than his original context.
Thanks.
How can you do that? I could guess that you might mean infrastructure wrt fiscal stim, but how can you bail out a fin corp in a way that reduces future deficits? Charge them high interest? Not for a failed corp.
I have been a strong supporter of exactly such a measure. The shortfall of revenue is large, and is a result of macro-economic mismanagement by the Federal government (and the Fed)–it is not the fault of the states. But it is they who must bear the consequences.
The services that they provide are especially vital at a time such as this.
I am especially upset that many young people who can’t get a job want to stay in school, but there are cutbacks in universities and community colleges. We are undermining the future strength of our country.
Ben Bernake was presented to the public as an “expert” on Depression era finances adn how to avoid predictable disasters. I don’t know how he is living up to that billing right now.
Isn’t the next crisis designed into the current system?
Re: Transparency and failure to recognize obvious problems:
“It’s hard to get a man to understand something, when his living depends upon him not understanding it.”
Upton Sinclair
I agree 100%. Basle II relied on self-regulation, which I view as an oxymoron. Moreover, the reason for regulation is that there are systemic problems, and the actions of any bank can exert externalities on others–indeed on the entire global economy. It is remarkable that the regulators didn’t understand any of this.
You say that many are thankful that Bernanke “pulled us back from the brink.”
I’m wondering about this. Were we really on the brink? How much of “fighting the last war” has been going on? We do have a number of protections now, such as the FDIC so regular people don’t lose all of their savings so don’t line up at the bank, causing it to fail. And, in fact, lending is not increasing, small business lending is still dropping, etc. So maybe all of the bailouts and Fed intervention haven’t made a difference because they are addressing the wrong problem.
Perhaps this time the financial crisis was different from the Great Depression, and the problem isn’t liquidity and lack of credit but instead really the decoupling of productivity increases from wage increases and very few are credit-worthy as a result. The amount of borrowing by consumers since Reagan happens to match the wage increases that should have occurred if wages had continued to rise with productivity.
Maybe predatory capitalism caused this one, not a banking crisis. And if so, did Bernanke really pull us from the brink, or just postponed the crash?
I agree. I was appalled by the Congressional action.
How can we get the message out to our Great American Society that there is more to living in a common society than the size of our stock portfolio?
For that matter, I’m very very sick and tired of the success of a business being measured by the rise and fall of their stock price vs. profitability. Guess I’m rather old school.
In his confirmation hearing he still averred that the FRB had no responsibility in causing the bubble. The man is dumber than a stone. But he gets A+++ on performing his political marching orders. Told the senators that they had to go after SS & Medicare, because “that’s where the money is.” And he laughed.
I’m not sure that Obama agrees with Bernanke’s ideology (or oppposes Joe’s). I’m mystified by the administration’s embrace of Bernanke. He’s a Republican. He got everything important wrong leading up to the crisis in his roles as Fed Member, Chair of Bush’s Council of Economic Advisors, and as Fed Chair. He gave the “wink and a nod” in a series of public speeches supporting gutting accounting rules that would have required banks to recognize losses on their bad loans. (Be sure to read Joe’s discussion in Freefall of the absurdity of both administrations’ claims that the crisis was caused by an irrational loss of confidence and accompanying liquidity crisis — as opposed to bad, often fraudulent, assets.) The Chamber of Commerce immediately put out a press release praising Bernanke for supporting their (CofC) proposal to gut the rules. It is only because those rules were gutted that the big banks (as a class) were able to report “profits” that supposedly justified massive bonuses. (There are also a series of opaque subsidies from us to the big banks — again, see Joe’s book on these subsidies.) The Chamber of Commerce is Obama’s fiercest foe. Why is Obama embracing their most valuable ally — Bernanke?
Bill
That was, perhaps, the most important reason. But there was “intellectual capture” as well–(some) economists’ notions of the virtues of free markets had some influence.
“self-regulation” is code for “crack addict going straight”. IOW, things will right themselves when pigs fly. I’m a big believer in rules and regulations. I think it’s hysterical that I’m a law and order liberal.
Thank you for visiting us here, Mr. Stiglitz. I would like to think of myself as an optimist, but WRT the United States, I think we have had it.
I think China has historically not claimed much territory (for long) that was outside its current boundary. However, the New China can pretty much claim dominion over us all without having fired a shot nor left its boundary, by simply collecting/lending all the money.
This sort of dynamic should change a lot of thinking.
Do you have any hope that the President or the Democrats in DC will change their course at all? Have any of them “reached out” to you?
He’s the latter, but if the President asks for his resignation it is likely that he would resign.
Bill
Well, even Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan publicly admitted-before Congress- he had found a flaw in his Free Market theory…that he expected the financial institutions police themselves(that’s a paraphrase).
mystified? really? Obama does a great job of rewarding his “enemies” and punishing his friends. He has done this consistently since forever.
I heard Joyce Chang, head of EM Research at JPMorgan, speak last week. She said that EM total outperformed G3 in the crisis, and that had taken measures (building reserves, stabilization funds for resource producers) to insulate themselves from such crises and thumb their noses at WB & IMF conditions. Any comment?
You are right that our corporate income tax system actually encourages jobs to move abroad. Hopefully, we will rectify this.
But there are many other provisions of the tax code (individual and corporate) that have the effect of distorting our economy and making it less fair.
Some have contributed to the current crisis–such as those provisions which, in effect, encourage leverage.
Too often those who are not at fault bear the consequences.
It is time to consider what consequence would be appropriate for those who deliberitely do damage.
The persistent claim that “no one could have forseen (imagined etc)what would happen” is absurd and demonstably untrue.
You, in fact, as we appreciate, were among those whose vision is not clouded by compromise, cant, and collusion.
We honor you for speaking out.
The people who understand will not forget that we are, increasingly, in your debt.
The other “excuse” is: “Well, it was legal at the time.”
Yes, conveniently, and deliberately, the constraints were done away with.
Should there not be consequence for the enablers as well?
The conversation of consequence and, dare I say, punishment, must not be forgotten in the coming euphoria of continuing excess.
Dr. Stiglitz, I’m so glad you’re here! Mr. Black thanks so much for your really marvelous summary that is almost understandable for this total novice in economics/finance.
Dr. Stiglitz, I’d like to say that I’ve been really, really mad at Obama almost from the beginning because you were frozen out of the policy evolution discussions. You were my hero, even tho I really didn’t comprehend the realities you were speaking about, but you were such a strong critic who was not afraid to speak truth to power. Since then I have prayed that you would be brought into the fold in some way. So I was truly delighted to see in a HuffPost article the other day that you were on a short list of possible replacements for Bernanke; I hooped with joy!
Scarecrow, thanks so much for the references to the Mother Jones article.
I recently read about or watched (?) an interview with Blankfein where he was openly and rather proudly saying, yes, they did high risk transactions in the subprime mortgage market because they had a clientele that wanted those types of securities because of the possible high yield. They were just meeting their client demands like any responsible business would.
To hell with the consequences. It didn’t matter that they almost killed the American economy and pretty much destroyed the “life chances”, as we used to say, for hundreds of thousands of Americans.
There was a great McClatchy article on Jan 22 by Greg Gordon about a new investigation (there are several others ongoing apparently, hooray!) of Goldman Sachs regarding their securities dealings in the sub-prime mortgage market. Their spokesperson said no comment.
I long for all the morally bankrupt “crooks” to be “strung up” and am in despair over the “decriminalization of outrageous behavior” that Scarecrow referred to.
Blessings to all,
Payed not to understand?
The nation has been programmed to consider themselves as a nation of consumers,firstly, not as a nation of citizens.
They have been “more than willing” to comply and become acquiescent accomplices .
Folks who know the price of everything and the value of very little.
Their sense of community is no bigger than the dimensions of their WalMart shopping cart.
Great short version. I’m so stealing it.
Thank you so much for participating in this, Dr. Stiglitz (and answering my earlier question). I read Globalization and Its Discontents–this new one sounds like a very important one, as well!
This is quite a different question from the broader policy issues we’ve been discussing, but it’s an important one. Your bank account is government insured (up to some limits), but unfortunately, the interest rate is low.
One increasing concern is inflation, not now, but in the future. When I was on the Council of Economic Advisers, I pushed for the creation of government bonds that were protected against inflation. You can now get these.
Thank you! This is exactly the argument to undercut the Almighty Promise to Self Regulate. If an organization “self regulates” but then relies on external legalities after all as their recognized limits, well then they haven’t self regulated have they???
…….
.
Um…where do we sign up for that?
Take the Citibank bailout. First, we could have forced a conversion of long term bondholders into shareholders (the usual process in bankruptcy). That would have probably met most or all of the capital needs. But when we gave Citibank money, we could have demanded more in return. We got cheated. Had we gotten more preferred shares and warrants in return, when the bank recovers, taxpayers get a return, and the national debt is lowered.
this doesn’t work in every case, but it would have worked in at least several of the big bailouts.
If Dr. Stiglitz is still with us, what public policy tools are available to compensate for the fact that financialism offers potential rates of return that productive investments can rarely match and thus attracts significant amounts of capital from productive to financial, speculative investments?
It’s all yours, dear. :) BTW, you really should do a diary or two on all this. Would love to hear your perspectives on the various headlines.
(posted with apologies to our guests…thanks for being here. Key voices we’re yearning to hear!)
Oh it ain’t for us, oldnslow, it is for “them”.
Unless we do something, for instance, to control the excessive risk taking of the banks, the question is not so much whether we have another crisis, but when it will occur.
Dr. Stiglitz and Mr. Black,
Thank you both very much for being here. Your Q&A and Mr. Black’s opening have brought much light to this confused brain.
Thanks again.
DW, look at the word consequence.
CON-sequence.
Yes, we have had a sequence of “CONS” ,alright.
Time to eliminate the institutionalized “connery”.
Wow, you packed a lot into that comment.
Shopping Cart Nation: Proceed to Checkout!
;~D
Dr. Stiglitz, I recently listened to some comments where you said that we need to deal with the rising costs of health care, or as some people put it, bend the health care cost curve. And clearly our cost growth is not sustainable.
However, the proposals currently in Congress totally fail to address it.
If we fail to control costs, what do you see as being the likely outcome? What specific effects will we see on our economy?
I’m waiting for the Greenspan “irrational exuberance” line to open up.
Thank you for being here today with us, Dr. Stiglitz.
It’s clear to me that all Americans have to be conscious of the fact that we must contain the destructive elements (legal/financial), implement accountability again and must be about rebuilding our country.
I think I should have been clearer. As far as any brink we were on, why assume we are past it? The loss from toxic assets still exists, much transferred to government debt, some still hidden from sight until mark to market. And yes, banks can fail beyond regular people pulling money out, I meant that regular people don’t lose their bank savings this time.
What I was trying to ask is wouldn’t the effect have been much greater if the same amounts had been used to bail out regular people, provide jobs directly (fixing up national parks, etc.) provide loans to businesses, etc. Bailing out the banks and letting the scoundrels keep the money may have 1) done no good anyway and 2) undermined faith in our system to the point where now we can’t fix things.
I saved my receipt…
Can I get my bailout money back?
Dr. Stiglitz, I left my job as a Wall St. economist at the peak of the dot-com bubble. It got much bigger and lasted a lot longer than I thought before it burst. I spotted the bubble more than year before the debacle started in March 2000. Do you know any good references for guaging how big and when the peak? Given my withered math skills, the best I could come up with were all the books about manias, panics, & crashes. I’d like to have better tools for the next one.
Greenspan is interesting in this regard, for as the Frontline special “The Warning” (about CFTC Chair Brooksley Born’s effort to regulate credit default swaps (CDS) — blocked, as Joe’s book explains, by a bipartisan coalition led by Rubin, Summers, and Greenspan) explains, Greenspan’s fundamentalist faith in markets had a specific (incredible) focus — the impossibility of “control fraud” (frauds led by those controlling seemingly legitimate firms). Consider why this is particularly inexplicable for Greenspan and then consider the insanity of Bernanke’s apparent continued belief in this claim.
Charles Keating (the most infamous S&L control fraud) hired Greenspan to (1) help recruit the five senators that became known as the “Keating Five” and (2) to “bless” Keating’s business strategy (which was a fraud and produced the most expensive S&L failure (Greenspan said in writing that it “posed no forseeable risk of loss” (at $3.4 billion it now seems almost quaint). Given that embarrassing background (which happened before Reagan appointed him as Fed Chair), how could he believe that fraud was impossible?
As to Bernanke, in October 2009 he appointed Patrick Parkinson as head of all examination and supervision at the Fed. Parkinson is an economist that has never examined or supervised an S&L He was the Fed’s most over the top defender of CDS. But what is particularly striking is that he testified that fraud was impossible among financially sophisticated parties. It boggles the mind that Bernanke would appoint him as the Fed’s top supervisor given his track record of failure.
Bill
Thanks. There was a lot of astonishment at the time that none of that happen. Since then, yawn.
I partially agree with you. There was a liquidity crisis. Banks didn’t trust each other. Banks stopped lending. But perhaps what really got the system working was simple: the government effectively guaranteed all short term liabilities. The Fed stepped in to provide liquidity to firms when the market stopped doing so. But if the government had taken $700 billion, created a new set of lending institutions, levered that money 10 to 1, there would have been more than enough lending capacity.
In short, the way the Fed rode to the rescue has been very costly–and may have adverse long run consequences.
Excellent question, eCAHNomics, was going to ask something like that your Seminal post this past week — are there any sign posts or indicators we should be using to detect bubbles?
I’m not an economist, spotted the bubble when I couldn’t buy a home in 2002 as there were none on the market which didn’t require an investment of more than 25% of the few remaining listed houses’ value for updates/repairs (a total of 6 houses, if I recall, were all I could look at). Would have made a few different decisions had I seen the bubble before I went looking for a new home.
Oops, sorry! Sale happened more than thirty days ago! :P Plus you paid cash instead of using your credit card.
In any Administration, there are a variety of voices–and there are some that do recognize that more needs to be done, reflected in the recent actions concerning the banks. But hopefully, this is just the beginning.
Is this called failing upward?
Errata: I meant to say that Parkinson had never examined or supervised a “bank” (not “S&L”).
Sorry.
Bill
I’m hoping my Walmart shopping cart will fit in the line.
While I agree that we now are told we are a nation of consumers it was not always so. We had been a nation of producers. When we began to listen to those that believe a natioinal economy can be based on the debt of it’s citizens is when all hell began to break loose.
But that was only part of the problem.
the banks had incentives for excessive risk taking–he should have recognized that.
Moreover, regulators are supposed to be concerned about externalities–when actions of a bank can cause harm to the rest of society. he doesn’t seem to recognize that this is the key reason to have regulations.
Well, like all the other drek from WalMart,its made to sell and not to last.
Long run consequence “may” happen?
There will inevitably be a long-term consequence, but it won’t be a question of “admitting” it, rather of who will bear it.
Dr, Stiglitz – wrt Health Care, do you have an opinion about Gruber’s model which states that there will be a wage increase in response to a health care excise tax?
Thanks!
If the taxpayers are backing all the losses, why don’t they get the upside as well?
Could that be somehow achieved?
Have to also give Obama credit for hiding his conservative bent in the conceit of listening to “all opinions” in agreement and so called dissent.
Sir, there are none so blind as those who have a financial incentive to NOT see,see?
How about the current crisis where my cousin, trying to buy a home in Riverside, CA,can’t find much on the market because the banks are reluctant to put homes on the market because that would require that they recognize the losses on their books? I assume that the end of this crisis is a long way off.
Many of the emerging markets did much better before and during the crisis. The Central Banks of India, Brazil, and Malaysia did a much better job of managing monetary and regulatory policy. China’s stimulus has enabled it to return to robust growth–almost 9% for 2009. They also got their banks to lend (almost too much.)
The IMF lost a lot of credibility: the emerging markets recognzie that it was the deregulation and liberalization policies which they advocated which caused the crisis and led to its rapid spread.
the more you buy, the more you save!
Bubbles are easy to recognize by regular folks. That’s not the problem, which is that if you start talking about bubbles bursting long in advance of its happening, you get disqualified by the cry-wolf syndrome.
Also, Dr. Stiglitz, if you haven’t slipped away already: would you be interested in being chairman of the Federal Reserve?
That was the intent of my question, Professor Stiglitz.
In America’s current political, legislative, exec-regulatory and judicial environment, the Emperor’s New Clothes rules apply.
They’re concerned with landscaping the yard when the house is situated on an active seismic fault that rips apart every seven to ten years.
It’s as though everyone hears that doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results is the definition of insanity, but the incentives won’t allow it to really sink in.
Better the insanity we know than something saner we don’t.
The most important task now is not so much punishing the enablers (other than by voting them out of office) as changing the laws to make sure this kind of thing doesn’t happen again.
The economist Dean Baker got the housing bubble right and warned about it long before it hyper-inflated. Fed Member Gramlich warned his colleague Greenspan of the bubble and nonprime loans. He urged Greenspan to send in the examiners. Greenspan refused. I personally spoke to a senior OTS regulator in the first half of 2005 and agreed with both of these concerns (which were already widespread at OTS). The FBI warned in Septemeber 2004 that there was an “epidemic” of mortgage fraud and predicted that it would cause a “crisis” unless it was contained.
Unregulated lenders made roughly 80% of nonprime loans. The Fed had unique authority under HOEPA to regulate these lenders — but refused to exercise it until 2008 — over a year after the nonprime sector collapsed.
Bill
I’ve ceased to be optimistic. Banksters are getting their bonuses, but my IRA is still way down. Is there — really — anything to be hopeful about, or should I buy a gun and plant a garden? I certainly don’t consider the current White House place holder to be any sign of hope.
Maybe for the record, if I may be so presumptious, we would do well to remember that Obama is from the Chicago School ,as is Greenspan and a few others in the current and earlier administrations.
Bill, when was that testimony? That sounds like it would be worth taking a look at again.
One of the things I find disconcerting (to put it mildly) about the GS behavior was that they were creating securities and selling them short–betting that they would lose in value, i.e. not yield the high returns that the buyers expected.
Honesty would have required full disclosure. Do you think it crossed their minds?
I’d be cautious about Chinese data. First, there is a major bubble still expanding there and second, the Chinese government has a particularly poor record for reliability (and yes, I know how badly the U.S. government sometimes distorts data).
Bill
In 1999 and 2000.
Bill
Actually, the two can’t be out of line for long. Financial returns appeared higher because of leverage; but with leverage, there was also higher risk. If you look at the long run returns, they didn’t do that well (although their executives did walk away with a bundle.)
Is that deja vu all over again?
What about the whistleblower that kept telling the SEC that Madoff was pulling a Ponzi?
“It’s hard to get a man to understand something when his living depends upon not understanding it.”
“The best things in life are FEE”
Hi, Bill,
BobbyG here.
But but but Blankfein assured us that was just a normal part of any intermediary’s hedging operation.
Bill,
Your outstanding interview on Bill Moyers Journal advocated for a modern Pecora Commission.
Do you see any chance that 1) such an investigation is even possible today, 2) if the findings show criminal or civil liability, will those who perpetrated what I consider to be financial terrorism ever be brought to justice, & 3) will concrete systemic changes be forthcoming?
Worse, he taught at U. Chicago’s law school and the law school has long embraced “law and economics” that is even cruder than the fundamentalist economics that Joe criticizes in Freefall. All of his faculty colleagues (though U.Chicago professors don’t consider adjunct professors colleagues) would have viewed almost any criticism of markets as not simply heresy, but also evidence of mental incompetence.
Bill
We will eventually have to control costs–there is no way that health care costs can eat up an increasing fraction of GDP. But delay is costly, and the distortions to our economy and our competitiveness can be serious.
Doing something about the health insurance companies and the drug companies is essential. But more than that will be required. There is, I think, considerable scope for gains in efficiency.
Speaking of bailouts and full disclosure, would you care to opine about Geithner and the AIG bailout?
How about his track record so far at the WH?
Thanks in advance for feedback.
I respectfully disagree, without punishment, it will happen again.
Without doubt (we are left with skepticism) …
Deterrence is not the result of gimmicks, gestures and “sucking it up and moving forward, (“it’s just a thing”)”, but rather the knowledge that sure and certain consequence (that word, again) awaits.
Who among the members of the House and Senate would you say are (a) most in agreement as to the need to change laws, and (b) in a position to lead to get this to happen?
There were many other ways that we could have spent the money that would have led to a more robust recovery and left our country in a stronger long run position. I agree that it was a terrible mistake to rely on trickle down economics–give money to the banks and hope that everyone will benefit. I argue in my book that trickle up economics should have been given a chance–helping people repay their mortgages would have helped ordinary Americans, and even the banks would have benefited.
Joe, almost everyone considers government deficits from the perspective of the household — which is what we know best. That perspective makes deficits sound inherently imprudent and the product of a lack of discipline and competence. This is one of the reasons it was so difficult to explain the need for a (much larger) stimulus package. Can you explain in a non-technical fashion why the “household” analogy fails?
Bill
So, as such, is in not folly to have expected Obama to actually attempt to exert limits and crack down on the warlocks of WallStreet?
Bill, that’s his “peeps”!
Didn’t know that about the law school. Thanks.
“36 senate seats are up for election in December:
8 said they would vote “aye” (5 democrats, 8 republicans)
9 said they would vote “no” (3 democrats, 6 republicans)
4 are publicly declared undecided and all are retiring and not running again ( 2 republicans and 2 democrats)
15 have made no public statements, all are running for reelection (8 democrats, 6 republicans)
In other words, senators up for reelection are saying “no” at a rate of 47%, not enough to get Bernanke reappointed let alone achieve 60% for cloture. Party affiliation does not matter.”
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/guest-post-bernanke-nomination-numbers-and-what-saves-him
Especially as the only two real crimes in America today, are having no money and having no power.
Yes, the Angelides commission has hired two superb investigators that I worked with extensively and an excellent research director. Let’s see how soon they subpoena the AIG, Fannie, Freddie, Goldman, etc. documents?
Bill
One of the mistakes that the Fed made was to say that you couldn’t tell that a bubble existed. You could be fairly sure, and the higher it got, the surer you could be. But that doesn’t mean you can predict with accuracy when it will break. but all policy has to be done in the context of uncertainty. the fact that you can’t be sure is no excuse for doing nothing. What the Fed did (and didn’t do) was inexcusable.
As we come to the end of this lively Book Salon,
Dr. Stiglitz, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us discussing your new book.
William, Thank you for Hosting this outstanding Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t bought this must-read book, here is a link.
Thanks all.
I would also like to hear about the AIG bailout. It seemed to me at the time that the derivative economy could fail on its own without too too much effect on the Main Street economy, but when you bail out AIG, you’ve opened up a conduit for funneling money from the latter to the former allowing them to be hitched together in something almost resembling a bucket shop, heads I win tails you lose scheme.
Bill and Dr. Stiglitz, thank you so much for coming today and for answering so many questions. It seems that the economy will not be much improved before the fall elections and we will see a big shift in Congress.
Dr. Stiglitz, you advocate for some trickle up, which would be a wonderful, welcome and productive change!! Imagine, helping the little people. What a concept.
Is it possible to even hope that something like this could happen? HOW can we help?
I would also encourage everyone to read everything you can find by Bill Black.
The health care cost debacle is just another example of the pols rewarding the industry for highway robbery. Same model as the financial industry that is tonight’s topic. Same model, different industry, senate HCR bill written by insurance corps & PhRMA.
Thank you, Dr Stilitz, for visiting with us and sharing your thoughts.
Please come again soon.
DW
Professor Stiglitz,
There are many figures thrown around about how much federal debt and guarantee commitments have been incurred over the past three years of quantitative easing, low Fed funds rates & the alphabet soup of bailouts.
When they increased the statutory debt ceiling to $12T and change, isn’t the total liabilities (not including future SS & Medicare obligations) in excess of $20T?
I watched the first 2 sessions. I thought the commishes were completely out of their league. The banksters walked all over them, and their Qs to all the witnesses show they are unprepared.
It means it’s far harder. But Joe’s book identifies an even more pressing reason. Rubin, Summers, and Geithner have been wrong about nearly everything related to the recurrent, intensifying crises. They are Obama’s economic advisors. Summers has proved to be a brilliant inside politician excluding other economic views. Joe is actually one of the rare exceptions that has been allowed to meet (a bit) with President Obama.
If we give up we know the people that have refused to learn from their mistakes will continue to prevail. Here’s a cheerful thought — our task was vastly more difficult under President Reagan, yet we reregulated the S&L industry successfully. Never give up.
Bill
THANK YOU for coming and answering our questions in easy to understand terminology.
And as always, thanks to the folks here at FDL.
This has been a real treat.
I know I’m late to this thread, sorry I missed most of it
as I always point out, the term “free market” is nothing but propaganda that gets people voting against themselves
there is no such thing as a free market, it is in itself a marketing concept
free marketeers don’t believe in it themselves, they know as a fact they could not survive without regualations
the very concept of a monetary system is a set of regulations, of ownership the same, of ” a sanctity of contract” the same, of courts the same
the “free marketeers” LOVE the regulations that get an economies treasure and HATE the regulations that force them into paying their own bills back into the very economy they use to gather their profit
it’s nothing but a term for their propaganda, they would lose everything they acquired if they really got “a free market”
As we discussed in your diary post the other night, the U.S. wins the gold in Down the Road Can Kicking every year.
One of the criticisms of our employer based health insurance system, combined with mandates, is that it may lead to increased costs of labor. The extent of these increases and their impact will depend on the extent and form of government subsidies. So too for any excise tax that might be imposed.
These are potentially big changes, with large ramifications. For instance, in the long run, in competitive markets, if employers give employees smaller fringes (smaller health insurance benefits, because of the excise taxes), wages will rise. Many labor markets are, however, not fully competitive, and adjustments take time. The worry is that in the short run, benefits will be cut back faster than wages increase–so the short run beneficiary will be higher profits.
It’s inextricably enmeshed with the problem of Wall Street. When the bubble burst and Big Insurance’s investments went in the toilet, there was nothing to do other than raise the hell out of premiums, cut benefits, deny more claims, dump people (“recission”), etc. For a long time premiums were subsidized by other revenue streams.
Thank you Joe. Thank you Bev. Thank you Jane. Thank you FDL webizons.
Bill
Thanks again Dr. Stiglitz and Mr. Black.
something that needs the light of day is how jp morgan was allowed to acquire the sassets of washington mutual without also taking on their debt
that is one of the biggest travesties to date, so someone who bought a bond,that money was given to jp yet the owner of the bond could only get wm to pay the bond, therefore the bonds became worthless overnight
amazing that has not seen the light of day
Thank you for being here, Dr Stiglitz. Very enlightening discussion.
Reagan was a boy scout in comparison to this crop of uncivil dis-servants. I wouldn’t hold my breath.
Thank you Messrs Black and Stiglitz for your time here and for tolerating my unsophisticated comments on these high stakes discussions. Much appreciated and keep fighting the good fight!
the second thing that needs daylight is “cit”, the largest lender to small business is being forced out of business themselves by the administration
I don’t know much more about either of these situations, found it out through conversations with some finaciers
I hope this gets going, this is important
As I’ve written, the commission can only succeed if one, professional investigator does the questioning and the testimony is under oath.
Bill
Yeah — like this. http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2010/01/how-bankers-think/
Well, a guy from Gary,Indiana oughtta be able to get a Chicagoan’s attention!
Don Regan was not. Nor was Speaker Wright. Nor were the Keating Five. Nor was OMB, which threatened to make a criminal referral against us because we closed too many insolvent S&Ls.
The current crew is not tough.
Bill
Yep. But if I can’t do anything about it, I’d at least like to be able to forecast it. That’s what I did for so long.
Ah, that was you. I should have known.
Good one!
Maybe that’s why they were put there?
Perhaps that is why it will not “happen” as you suggest.
Why should there be any genuine interest in real “success”?
Especially, if there is no consequence for failure?
Real medical care– just like basic education and retirement– non-privatized and independent of the employer is more socially just and less corrupt in my experience and opinion.
Well done FDL for hosting this salon!
Best regards to you, Dr. Stiglitz, and godspeed!!
not so much with regard to toughness, but are there any proven successful prosecutors of the S&L fiasco anywhere on board in this one?
You’re right. They are intertwined too.
That’s exactly what would have worked, and that is exactly why it wasn’t done.
These aren’t good people.
Thank you, Messrs. Black and Stiglitz.
Thanks FDL.
Dr. Stiglitz, can I call you Joe? *winking*
You all don’t know how much self discipline it required for me to wait until he was gone before typing that.
We obtained over 1000 “priority” felony convictions arising from the S&L debacle. To date, there is not even an indictment of a senior officer of a large corporation that specialized in making nonprime loans. When you deregulate or desupervise an industry you, de facto, decriminalize “control fraud” in that industry.
No, they have not brought back either the successful regulators or prosecutors.
Bill
Thanks again for today’s book salon, gentlemen.
I see few in congress and no one inside the administration who is committed to more than public relations and political expediency.
Let us know when you get a call from the White House to clean up this imaginary recovery and lead the new FBCBRA, Federal Bailout Claw Back Restitution Adminstration.
Well,I guess we shoulda asked sooner about AIG.
Ya know, eCAHN, I believe that Dr. Stigliz likes you too.
;~DW
Hey, that winkin’ schtick proved pretty effective for another gal who wasn’t NEARLY as smart as you! *G*
Many thank Dr. Stiglitz and Mr. Black, and all of you pups. Wonderful and thought out questions, and answers as well. This sort of exchange gives me hope. A pox on all you cynics:). Doesn’t mean we don’t need your input).
Thanks again Mr.Black.
I’m getting jealous! LOL
too coy, PALINcomics.
**G**
Her greeting of Biden in the debate was my model for that comment.
I once asked him a pointed Q when he was on Clinton’s CEA. Venue was biz economist’s luncheon meeting with about 60 attendees. He gave me a lame answer. Doubt that he still remembers it, but wouldn’t want to reveal I was that person just in case. He’s improved a lot since then.
What type of voters revolt? How would it occur? Can we have a 3rd party movement at some point? Why don’t we encourage elected progressive dems to join the greens so they won’t be so marginalized in the Democratic caucus?
Bill, if it was up to us, you’d be on the board too.
Bill & Joe, thank you!
Thank you Dr. Stiglitz and Dr. Black.
This type of discussion is valuable.
What a marvelous succinct definition of our current cultural reality. Pretty sickening. Having spent a semester in grad school studying various social change movements, I try to imagine what it would take to break free from the programming and how long it would take. That only leads me to despair. Still, one of the tiny but real bright lights I see is the impact Michael Pollan’s books are having on dialogues in several critical arenas.
Blessings,
I know there are sophisticated mathematical models out there for factoring multiple variables, but the simple arithmetic doesn’t inspire any optimism that we can move toward a more broadly based distribution of wealth and power in this country, i.e. a system that is both sustainable and equitable.
I’m in agreement with Ian Welsh on this one.
Well, eCAHN, if you had that effect from one meeting, we may imagine that Joe’s progress will accelerate.
I do believe you is a good influence on him.
(I figure any man who is willing to pay attention to a very intelligent woman, without getting all absurd, is educable, even if sometimes a little lame.)
DW
If we’re talking Palin and Biden in that debate …
What’s good for the moose, is good for the panderer.
I think it was his stint at the WB that really changed him.
Agreed, but you got him thinkin’, no doubt.
;~DW
Thanks awfully nice of you. Thanks.
You know, I have a newfound respect for the time honored practice of “retreats’.
Some are religious,some aren’t.
But “unplugging “on a variety of levels can create a new perspective.(I mute the TV and put on closed captioning to avoid commercials,sometime.)
However, in the case of Wall Street,they aren’t on retreat….
They have taken a permanent vacation from decency.
Bless you, I think probably not. Their basic model of the world they want to maintain precludes acting in any other way that protecting their capacity to maximize profits.
But, how about you as Chair of the Fed? (I appreciate that it would not be cool to answer) I saw a headline today that said that Krugman wasn’t interested; I hope you won’t make such a comment.
Blessings,
Amen, amen!!!!
Wow, that’s fantastic news! Thanks for sharing that info. You’ve made my day!
Blessings,
“What the Fed did (and didn’t do) was inexcusable.”
Absolutely; and it is insane that Obama and friends can’t and won’t see that.
Dr. Stiglitz and Mr. Black, this has truly been a most fantastic journey this afternoon and we’re all very grateful for your presence with us today and your work in your worlds.
Hooray for FDL for providing such rich experiences!
Blessings,
Thanks for that, DW. I couldn’t agree more. I should have interjected as well but I would have had to leave the forum just as I made the comment. I had a wife and five year old waiting on me and I would not have been able to respond with a thanks and possibly a reply.
Too much professional collegiality and not enough righteous indignation at wholesale destruction of lives.