Now that the Supreme Court has decided that corporations have First Amendment rights, we need to examine our rhetoric–specifically the word “corporatism.” Many liberals been using that word to describe a government that sees its primary function as responding to the needs and demands of corporations and the financial elites that control corporations. The right also uses the word to describe President Obama and his administration, but with a different twist. The word comes from political science, where the three traits that define corporatism are:
an ideology of social partnership expressed at the national level; a relatively centralized and concentrated system of interest groups; and voluntary and informal coordination of conflicting objectives through continuous political bargaining between interest groups, state bureaucracies and political parties.*
Informally, this means that rather than publicly fighting for power and control of resources, the major interest groups thrash out their differences among themselves and present a united front to the public. Their agreement becomes law.
Interest groups include big money in its various manifestations, such as giant businesses, hedge funds, banks, and foundations. Government and its bureaucracy are also interest groups in this theory. Labor is an interest group. There are also private interest groups. These groups make the decisions, more or less secretly, and then implement them through government and the institutional practices of the interest groups.
William Domhoff explains the role of private interest groups.
The upper class and the closely related corporate community do not stand alone at the top of the power structure. They are supplemented by a wide range of nonprofit organizations that play an important role in framing debates over public policy and in shaping public opinion. These organizations are often called “nonpartisan” or “bipartisan” because they are not identified with politics or with either of the two major political parties. But they are the real “political party” of the upper class in terms of insuring the stability of the society and the compliance of government.
Private groups include Focus on the Family, the Sierra Club, NARAL and the Eagle Forum, which represent the interests of Christian fundamentalists, environmentalists, and pro- and anti-women’s rights groups. The power of interest groups depends to a large extent on the political party in power. Labor has no real power under Republican administrations, and anti-women’s rights groups have no real power under Democratic administrations.
Liberal groups and, to a much lesser extent, conservative groups, self-neuter to retain the personal power of their leaders. Jane refers to them as the Veal Pen. Rather than represent their members and small donors, these groups merely reflect the political wishes of the party in power, primarily the President. Only big money and government interests have real power. Thus, conservative and liberal definitions of “corporatism” converge.
Once the decisions are made, all of the interest groups, including the private groups, unleash their agents of influence on the public, that vast group that isn’t well-informed about the complexities of financial reform, health care reform, environmental reform, sustainable food, or energy. Uninformed people are easily manipulated by the tactics of the persuasion industry. Pushback from private interest groups is minimal; they live in the Veal Pen.
The Supreme Court has now explicitly authorized the use of private money to secure control of government. Now there will be no conflicts among interest groups. The consensus views of the conservatives who have all the money and corporate control will be jammed down our throats. We are going to put to the test these words of Franklin Roosevelt.**
The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism—ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power.
——————————————
* Left Government, Policy, and Corporatism: Explaining the Influence of Partisanship on Inequality by David Rueda, World Politics, Vol. 60, No. 3 (Apr., 2008), pp. 349-389 Published by: Cambridge University Press, quoting Peter Katzenstein, Small States in World Markets (Ithaca, N.Y.: Cornell University Press, 1985), 32.
**Wikipedia, citing Franklin D. Roosevelt, “Appendix A: Message from the President of the United States Transmitting Recommendations Relative to the Strengthening and Enforcement of Anti-trust Laws”, The American Economic Review, Vol. 32, No. 2, Part 2, Supplement, Papers Relating to the Temporary National Economic Committee (Jun., 1942), pp. 119-128.




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Your closing FDR citation pretty much describes our incipient sociopolitical circumstance.
The Supremes who voted for this abomination never heard of FDR. They would consider him a traitor to his class.
Before this decision was made the president shldve let it slip that he was looking into increasing the size of the court from 9 to 13, the congress and the president do have that authority and if the 5 klansmen insists on voting together on ideological lines then maybe it is time for a remedy. The supreme court has become an arm of the republican party and it is time for us to quit pretending that it is any other than that.
“…the complexities of financial reform, health care reform, environmental reform, sustainable food, or energy. Uninformed people…”
___
When does the New Season of American Idol start?
I don’t think that citizens are going to be fooled any longer by the corporate ads. Or not as many will be.
So if corporations have the rights of individual citizens now, does that not mean that I as a citizen have corporate rights? I can now write off every little expense that might occur, while getting accountants to find ways around tax laws, and also qualify for the next round of corporate bailouts coming to a Washington near you?
And don’t overlook that much of that corporate money is going to the corporations from the taxpayers via government bailouts (e.g. the trillions we continue to shovel to Wall Street).
So the people are taxed so that business may buy the government, and thus own the people.
It’s the pinnacle of corporatism.
massaccio,
I am a lawyer, like you.
The Supreme Court got it right today.
The first five words of the First Amendment are, “Congress shall make no law….”
The Constitution is about powers granted to the central government. Not about outcomes.
You and I quarreled about this case a few weeks ago. You dismissed me as a fool.
Please understand, I may be a fool. But the Supreme Court got it right today as a matter of constitutional law.
Fascim – the word which must not be spoken.
The merging of corporation and state.
Didn’t we fight a world war about this? Which side won?
Beyond disgusting :(. Looks like the best option at this point is a Constitutional Amendment to abolish the corporate “personhood” clause and illegalize all donations to all federal campaigns; 100% public funds only! The next option would be California or New England threatening to secede from the union, thus destabilizing the corporations themselves (aka an ultimatum). Actually, I think the Supremes are way too powerful and unchecked.
When can I form a corporation to run for office, and then sell the seat to he highest bidder?
(As if the sale of the seat to the highest bidder does not now happen)
The reason it was such a fight wasn’t that fascism was the enemy – it was that a different set of rulers threatened to control it.
stare decisis?
And of course the MSM echo chamber will simply propagate all the corporate propaganda we are about to be buried under, all the while defending it as “reporting on the election”. Ugh.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
___
So His Exalted Textualist Scalia got out his ouija board and channelled the Framers and determined that it was then commonly understood that corporations were “people” with inviolable “freedom of speech”?
I did not know this! How can we go about doing it?? Is it just passing a bill with simple majorities through both houses plus the President’s signature? 13 would definitely dilute the power of every individual Justice, so this is an excellent option.
Next week, I’m officially changing my name to “Bank Of Me”….then they’ll listen!
So, no more birth certificates, just articles of incorporation?
i want to pay the same tax rate as Goldman Sachs (after my bailout).
If corporations are “people” then shouldn’t every person be considered a “corporation” and thus entitled to bailouts???
Look on the bright side. We were effectively disenfranchised once a selected official enters The Beltway, no matter who we voted for. This includes Obama. Successful candidates generally had big time lobby/pac funding anyway. All this does is allow a faster conduit for money reaching the huddled masses of Congress and State legislatures. No more lies trying to hid their being bought, no more worry about small fund raisers, just appealing to their Corporate masters. It’ll streamline law making, all be it for Corporate interests. More time passing laws and vacation/golf junkets, less time required pacifying pesky voters, less worries about ethics.
Rehnquist’s one dollar, one vote under the Burger court come to fruition.
Oh, the bright side: No more worry or lost time spent in researching the issues or candidates, or voting. It’s all taken care of.
And Limited Liability.
;-)……..see post 6…we be thinking the same way
I think this is the logical consequence of American ideology and conservative dominance since… well, at least since Reagan.
But it’s totally out of synch with what I observe in the culture.
Publishing is in fits and spasms of panic, newspapers are having the devil of a time, Internet ads generated over $23 billion last year, yet few seem able to figure out whether to aim ads at mobile phones, teevee shows, movie previews, or blogs.
I guess if corporate attorneys want to ‘party like it’s 1886,’ we shouldn’t stop them from being that stupid and myopic.
But if you ask a voter whether AIG and Goldman Sachs should be able to spend unlimited amounts of taxpayer bailout dollars to pay lobbyists to write financial reform laws, shouldn’t you expect some blowback?!
I don’t know what form the blowback will take, but it seems quite possible that SCOTUS actually just handed the corporations their asses on a platter. It’ll take awhile to play out, but this kind of overreaching is just dumb.
The corporations were really kind of stupid to make their influence and thuggish control of government THIS obvious.
Dumb and dumber.
The Constitution is a social compact between the People and their government. Corporations never entered into it, until the Court waved a wand and made them into people.
Think of it this way. Taxpayers will no longer be disappointed, when the person they thought they elected turns out to be a fraud. No more DNC email requests daily asking for money to get “change” to Washington. The corporations will just select the candidates to be voted for, and then compete to see who can donate the most to sway the election.
This is outrageous. Corporations are not living beings.
How can they be allowed to do this when they cannot vote as a person?
Copy that. He musta been out sick that day during Con Law class.
Check out the SCOTUS segment of MSNBC’s Dylan Ratigan show today. The assumption that corporation = ‘person’ is questioned, and the problem is explained.
This topic is beginning to emerge more and more frequently.
If a corporation is ME, and I am them, I want my bonus.
we to!!!
The tax rate on CORPORATIONS is what? About 1%.
So, dcefinitely go for the tax rate.
But, in the long run (as they say) you won’t be a true corporation, ‘cuz you gots to die.
Corporations?
Nothing like letting immortals loose on the fourscore and seveners …
(Sic ‘em!!!)
DW
@canadianbeaver, 22
Lol, I somehow missed it! Good post… even more thorough and compelling :).
Well, be sure they send it offshore so you don’t have to pay taxes.
/s
Oh yeah, you can go to jail, be executed, suffer real, actual pain and possibly, from your conscience.
Corporations, poor things, can do none of the above.
Hmm, “none of the above” now there is a candidate we could all get behind sometimes. Hell, it might even “win”.
But that would have to be kept secret.
You know, for national security.
;~DW
I’m a tax lawyer, for 35 years. I’d no more argue tax law here than jump off a bridge. It would be pointless.
My first paper out of law school (a contest for lawyers in 1973) was about the First Amendment. I read or re-read a bunch of cases and read a bunch of the Federalist papers.
I won’t argue the law with anyone here except for lawyers. It would be pointless.
But please understand, if you attack my view, and you’re not a lawyer, you probably don’t know what you’re saying.
Only if they’re
civic mindeddumb enough to be based in the U.S.Enron had a series of Cayman-based entities.
Global Crossing was based in Bermuda, IIRC.
But of course **any** company can advocate in D.C. or in any state.
And IIRC, Mary Cheney is setting up a lobbying firm that will specialize in non-US based lobbying. Perhaps the Dubai-based Halliburton will sign up for her services?
He must have been out sick a lot.
People, and The People, are living, breathing things. A corporation is a set of legal documents on file at a courthouse. It has no opinions, it has no beliefs, it CANNOT speak, because it has no life and nothing to say. It’s absolutely absurd to call it a ‘person’. It doesn’t pass the laugh test, it’s an obscene violation of basic logic and the English language.
Laws can be wrong. Laws can be wrong and in defiance of nature itself. Indiana once tried to pass a law setting the value of pi to 3.2. If it had passed, Pi would not have become 3.2.
Likewise, no matter how much Kennedy and his 4 corporatist brothers scream it from the rooftops, corporations are not people.
Turley thinks that changing two party system is the way to counter this. He agrees with Art45.
I’m not talking law, I’m talking basic natural philosophy and human dignity, subjects that all people are qualified to converse upon. Your pathetic retreat to the world of titles only demonstrates your moral cowardice.
LOL! Yeah, y’see, us Great Unwashed serfs just don’t get it.
You can say that, but you’ve never studied constitutional law.
You hate me, but I am speaking the truth as best humans know it.
Even Senator Snowe is having a hissy over this ruling.
Not sure what that means, if anything.
feh.
twice.
“Indiana once tried to pass a law setting the value of pi to 3.2. If it had passed, Pi would not have become 3.2.”
___
LOL. An asshat legislator here in Nevada — a lawyer, as well — proposed legislation after 9/11 defining “terrorism” as “any act that interferes with law enforcement.”
Not shitting you.
ART – I’m not challenging you, I’m asking you, what was valid in the case that overturned about 100 years of law? What was the central point that this Court got, that others over a long time did not?
Just the facts
yeah, the ‘feh’ was as to the facts reported, not at you.
I don’t really understand the liberal insistence on the verbiage of “corporatism”. Can anyone explain it to me? Why not just call it by its name, Capitalism?
Notice that Turley slid right over the issue of whether corps are people.
Roger
Hey, everyone, if the Supreme Court had ruled against Citizens United today, your free speech rights would have been placed in jeopardy.
You should applaud this ruling.
Again, Scalia The Textualist simply KNOWS that corporations were considered “people” at the time of our Constitutional enactment.
Dear Friends,
I strongly disagree with today’s decision by the Supreme Court to strike down another piece of Campaign Finance Law. By giving corporations the same free speech rights as individual human beings, the Court will allow companies to buy elections and further corrupt the political process. A century of precedent is stripped away by this ruling, which would allow both domestic and foreign corporations to pour unlimited amounts of cash into federal elections, overwhelming the will of the voters and the resources of candidates.
The American people are already struggling with the worst recession since the Great Depression, caused in part by the reckless behavior of certain Wall Street and corporate decision makers. The last thing they need is for these companies to be able to buy elections. I am working with my colleagues to reverse this 5-4 split decision, incredibly made by Justices who claim to be against judicial activism. Justice Scalia even voted against the decision he supported 20 years ago.
Members of Congress and the constituents I meet all agree that there is too much money in politics already, and the Court’s decision will only make that problem worse. There will be swift action in Congress to restore the restrictions on direct campaign spending by corporations.
Your Representative,
John Hall
NY-19
Wow. YOU are speaking the truth as PEOPLE best know it.
I didn’t know you were annointed by God on high. You should have said so, with a burning bush or something.
Your delusion of grandeur is striking and pathological. Seek help. Seek immediate psychiatric help.
Thanks, Mr. Nader.
Ralph Nader gives Bush the White House. The Bush White House puts Alito and Roberts on the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court rules today to make it official: America Inc.
But then there’s DLCer Chuck Schumer Inc. and his preposterous slam on the decision. Charles would have us believe the way things were before the decison wasn’t also just another flagrant manifestation of crony capitalism…of corporatism. Remember TARP? Remember health care “reform”? Remember Afghanistan?
This, if anything, just makes it all more transparent.
There is only one antidote. Progressives need to organize a mass movement that puts into office men and women who cannot be bought by corporations.
Liberals of course are yammering for a Constitutional amendment or some other “inside the beltway” legislative counterpunch.
But you won’t need that if you elect folks who can’t be bribed in the first place right?
So, in a sense nothing has really changed. It’s up to us to change Congress. It always has been. But so far we have not been up to the challenge. Will we be now?
Big difference between corporatism and capitalism. In the latter, if you take Adam Smith’s definition, it’s atomistic sellers competing with each other, and atomistic buyers, so that no large entities control the market.
Now, there’s a Double Diamond Slippery Black Slope for ya.
Ah you must be one of those, “It’s ever been thus” kind of lawyers.
What do you think of the suggestion that our legal system is inherently corrupted by the fact that the amount of justice one may receive is directly related to the depth of one’s pocketbook?
O.J. serves as a case in point: With a Dream Team (and an idiot judge) you can get away with … and without … well …(it’s ever been thus, right?).
Maybe you might wish to disagree?
But then you would assume that only lawyers have any business even posing a question about a Supreme Court whose decision (from my arrogantly ignorant perspective, as you would have it) is deep into Dred Scott territory in its arrogant dismissal of human consequence.
But I do thank you for being forthright in telling the rest of us that we don’t have any business talking with you, ART45, about the law.
I guess that leaves it up to us to decide whether your opinion, your verdicts, are worth much, if anything, to the rest of us.
DW
Certainly followed the talking points.
ART 45 is a veteran tax lawyer who once wrote a paper on the First Amendment.
Game Over.
To the 4th power…..
we be fucked because of some dick head court reporter in 1888 fucked up! WTF is wrong with this picture??? All this crap from one mistake by a payed corporate shill….
As bmaz laid out in great detail, the Court went out of its way to rule on this specific issue, rather than the case as originally brought before them. In fact, they forced both sides to reargue the case on an essentially unrelated issue, because the Corporatists wanted their golden opportunity.
Today’s ruling has nothing to do with free speech and everything to do with a judicial coup.
It’s only obvious to those who are paying attention (i.e., you and me). For the rest of America, ignorance is bliss.
not to mention that Kennedy’s majority opinion is apparently couched in terms of, “well, this *could* happen, or that denying corporations blank checks in politics *might* lead to something else, relies on little, if any, precedential case law… Reminds me of the testimony from the DI’s in the Prop 8 trial in the fantasizing of possible horrendous outcomes which have not yet even come close to having come to pass.
as to the Corporations = People question – well, that’s settled law, ya know, and the Supremes aren’t gonna mess with settled law. I quite specifically remember both Roberts and Alito swearing to that in their confirmation hearings.
/s
I’m quite capable of speaking my mind without reaching for my wallet.
Only if you are too big to fail.
We have too many obese Americans as it is.
Today we have witnessed the stroke of the conservative agenda and the murder of our country. Thanks to the judicial radicalism of the Santa Clara case, the hijacking of the presidential election that allowed this court to be stacked with thugs and cronies, now this horrific decision, our democracy has been stolen and replaced by corporate dictatorship.
I am beyond sad.
Impeach all five of them.
((((((Petro))))))) save me.
well, ART, expecting applause is a bit unrealistic.
but you’re right.
Kelly,
You have to read the majority opinion, which you really can’t do unless you’re a lawyer.
The Court focuses on 4 prior decisions — Buckley v. Valleo (1976), Austin, McConnell, and Bellotti. It determines Austin and McConnell were wrongly determined.
Right about what? The ruling today, or his to be an oracle of divine authority over humankind?
Which is exactly why I asked the stare decisis question to begin with.
If Corps = People = Settled Law, what is it in this decision that trumps 100 years of settled speech law?
Hey ya never know…
Court decision aside, big finance has been arbitraging the market meltdown since Oct 2007 when Merrill took its first hit. Bailouts were always part of the plan. If the President wants to lead and not be led, if he truly wants to take on the real national economic crisis, he has the wrong people in place. It’s all corporate theatre.
Careful, that kind of attitude is why people hate lawyers.
I’m a lawyer. Please explain why you think the First Amendment was not understood by its authors to refer to laws affecting the speech of people, sir, and the process by which corporations, against all common sense and logic, came to be regarded as “persons.”
Because the crux of what is wrong with this decision is that corporations are not persons, but have been treated for the last century as though they were, in effect, rendering them some kind of “super-citizen” status that real people can never hope to compete against.
Evenin’ Petro!!!
Is that some largess from the land to the north?
How be life treating you?
(I know you’re treating life with all due respect, humor, equinimity.)
DW
I think I’m going to make “I am speaking the truth as best humans know it.” an email signature. That kind of remark deserves to be remembered.
damn it. evidently this keyboard doesn’t have a good sarcasm setting – I gotta get a new one….
Sincerely,
jayt – Dept of Lame Jokes
Buckley is famous, so I know that one.
I happen to be a pretty damn good paralegal, and I don’t think you should assume anything about my cognitive abilities, about what I can or can’t understand.
My degree is in Piano Performance and I would never tell you that you could not understand or enjoy any specific piano concerto because “you can’t understand it unless you’re a pianist.”
So while you’ve told me the cases, you haven’t answered my question;
What is the issue that makes THIS court correct?
Hey, I don’t mind getting trashed. I even like some of the diaries by those who trash me.
But note this: I was right about Coakley. I was absolutely right right about Citizens United.
Wallow in your ignorance and untruth. I’ll be be back another day to enlighten you.
Whee, look at me, I’m commenting on an FDL blog as best humans do it.
Now I’m going to go eat tacos as best humans eat them, which I prepared as best humans cook them.
well, for starters, he’s right not to want to argue this with you as you don’t seem to want to understand him.
as a matter of common law, legal philosophy, political philosophy, and history there are things to be considered supporting the decision.
*g* I saw the snark tag!
Was advancing argument, lamely…and with the wrong attorney.
CAN JUSTICE ROBERTS BE IMPEACHED SINCE HE OBVIOUSLY LIED IN HIS SENATE CONFIRMATION HEARINGS?
OT
Sheila Bair in conflict of interest with BoA while bailing them out. Didn’t get the details.
Where’s all the fucking outrage about personal attacks now, huh? Fucking hypocrites.
John Hall NY-19
Yes, this is one way to look at it. But this line of thinking neglects to focus on the fundamental relationships in a democracy. It assumes that just because corporations will be given carte blanche in funding candidates, the only candidates that can be elected are those who will toe the corporate line.
But what about Representatives like Kucinich and Grayson? What about the many other Congresswomen and men who will not permit themselves to be bought and paid for every election cycle.
When push comes to shove we are still the problem. We being Progressives unable to expose the corporate agenda to enough citizens to stop it. We being Progressives unable to elect a Congress and a White House not beholden to Wall Street.
Right?
Their goal is sadly simple:
“…and that government of the CEOs, by the CEOs, and for the CEOs shall not perish from the earth.”
*hysterical laughter*
Oh… lord… wallow in your ignorance and untruth…
I’m officially calling this one. ART45 has to be a prank. Nobody talks like that, outside of a bad mid-century sci-fi movie.
Now, taco-time.
I have just been informed on national TV that I should rejoice in the decision to accept corporations as people, allowing them all the rights afforded to persons. This, I am told, is a personal victory for me! Would somebody please explain to me why I should rejoice in having been sold into slavery? At this moment the only solution that occurs to me is that all of us who are still willing to fight must become a corporation, and fight them with their own weapons. I am not sure that is possible.
Goodbye America! We will always love you, and we will remember you as the shining beacon of freedom you once were to the world.
How is it that Democrats are suddenly surprised by this ruling? The Supreme court had the case for awhile.
How is it Democrats are surprised about the vote in MA?
Please do not use all caps, it’s considered shouting.
I have for Years been trying tell people that the Supreme Court is the biggist danger to our Country there is. It is more of a danger than the terrorists, natural disasters, and our Political System.
Those who disagree have again won, and now we all will see the deterioration of our Country.
The Lawyers that say this was the right decision, show that there opinions are as flawed as the Law they practice on us. Our law was made to protect the people. When it is used to hurt the people it is not Law but a travisty.
The Law, that same Law that is supposed to protect the people, has been used against Country and People for years by Lawyers, and has made most of the problems our country indures.
The Lawyers, and The Judges have used our law to allow Politicians to take money from anyone they want. They argued it’s not a bribe, or a quid Pro Quo. They also have allowed our Politics and Politicians to do what ever they want with us having no say over it.
The defense of the first amendment, has been used to distroy every part of the actual Constitution.
We forget that the Constitution said we were to be a Country of the people, by the people, and for the people.
The Law, has taken that away. It replaced it with a Government that is sold to the highest bidder.
They’ll be gone after November. This has been another episode of simple …
This is starting to look trollish.
Doing well, thanks for asking – in spite of all of the appalling drama on the national stage.
And love, my friend. That’s the only way I can handle it all. :)
My, my Art, you are worthy of being hated? Wow. That is a real statement of self-perceived importance.
Will politicians now start to look like NASCAR drivers, with logos all over them? Maybe it should be required actually…
ART isn’t a troll. He has a lot of comments that I’ve read.
But I am trying to draw him out on the issue/central point of the decision and WHY it’s right, rather than just making assertions.
get a life. short comments can be whatever
back off
what – you take exception to being told to wallow in your ignorance?
I wonder if there is a *Mrs.* ART45?
lawd – help her.
Yeah, and plenty of things that DON’T support it.
A troll lives under a bridge, don’t you know.
I sleep on a couch in the lowest part of my house.
That way, the mortars from Viet Nam blast over my head.
Didn’t you know that being here for 5 years doesn’t preclude you from being a troll if someone important doesn’t care for what you say?
DOH#*##!@!
How the fuck can a piece of fucking paper be given “PERSONHOOD”??
Of course the founding Fathers meant that a person was a living breathing being..
We breathing beings must fight back… or as was said we all become corporations and pay a tax rate of 1%.. Of course that is on profits… Operating expenses deducted!!! So Diapers are a write off!!!!
Where the fuck do I sign up??
What are you suggesting here that there is a clear cut distinction between the law and politics? That is preposterous. One can no more read the Constitution and resolve definitively whether corporations have the same freedom of speech as individual citizens than read the Second Amendment and resolve the role government may or may not play in regulating the private sale of arms to individual citizens.
The Constitution is about power. The law is about power.
Sorry, DW, I think OJ was innocent, and I’m a white guy.
God, I hope that was snark. Cuz if it wasn’t, you haven’t dealt with the general public in a long, long time.
KO fixin to comment on this cluster fuck.
Hey, everyone, if the Supreme Court had ruled against Citizens United today, your free speech rights would have been placed in jeopardy.
Did you pass the bar by any chance? And, if so, which one? If you did, you were lucky that your statement above wasn’t a True-False-Explain question.
It’s never too late to stop being a churl.
still would rather have an answer to a question than scolding. friendly comments on fdl should be appreciated not blasted without any real answer.
Hey,
There once was a Mrs. ART45. She got fed up with me in the 1980s and we both had affairs.
God, I still lust after women.
Who called you a troll? I’ll duke it out with them.
Your recalcitrant, irascible and curmudgeon-y, but you’re no troll. *g*
She’s doin her best under difficult circumstances. The nasty personal comments are right on the edge but the caps deal is clear.
This bar.
Ha, he’d be very disappointed in me if I went public. He’s hoping I just fade away. He did call me all that stuff too!
KO Special Comment on today’s decision coming up.
Olbermann – “It could be my last one…”
They’ll be gone after November because Progressives were not able to prevent that.
Just as Progressives were not able organize a movement in Massachusetts that pitted a genuine progressive candidate against Brown.
Either we come up with a reconcilation agenda of our own that effectively changes things systemically in America or we go on blaming the Supreme Court, Rahm Emanual and the rest of the folks who have constructed the Bilderberg agenda over the years.
You are on to something here. Uniforms with the logos in proportionate size to donation or money spent; I like that a lot.
Dood all caps get caught in the filters as it is considered SHOUTING and that makes the moderator’s job much harder. (we pups respect our Mods!).. thats why EG said what was said… get a life yourself…
It’s part of your charm! *g*
We’ll damn!
Keith!!!!
Where does the Constitution explain about legal rights of corporations?
well that’s sort of what I said
You are a good person. I mean it.
But you have not been to law school.
The term “people” was clearly understood by the Framers and their constituents to include corporations.
Right?
;)
hey just sticking up for our Mods… Dood… (:>))
How ya doing Raven??
I loves EG! OK, in trouble as usual. U?
ART you’ve got 2 assertions:
1 – I’m Right and
2 – You can’t understand since you’re not an attorney
Not a case for why you’re right. So will you agree that without making a case, you shouldn’t expect anyone to agree with you?
Point taken. But if a newbie makes a mistake being called a loutish fool is not required. I thought we were all pups here – but apparently some of us are more peasant class than others. I enjoy this site as it is one of the only sane locations one can visit these days. I still would like to know if anyone with legal gnosis could answer whether Roberts could be impeached. Sure would like to contribute to that campaign if it was viable.
Staying warm and dry… unlike outside where it has been raining for what seems like forEVER!! Thanks to CT!! He shifted the winds so now we are in the middle of the PineApple Express… we may haven’t seen the sun but for about an hour or so in the last week or so…
As a legal matter, Roberts could be impeached. As a political matter, no. I’d say we have a better shot at court packing if there was any leadership in the democratic party. Which there absolutely isn’t.
massacio,
The Constitution is a document that grants certain powers to the federal government, restricts certain powers, grants powers to the states, and restricts what the federal government can do.
come now you are reaching with that line. Everyone is equal here and all opinions are welcomed!
Me to!! This whole Corporate Personhood thing has my hackles on full Alert!!
sure Judges can be impeached. usually someone asks for a reason why it should be undertaken as that whole lifetime tenure thing is there to prevent the ” because we don’t like the ruling” answer.
what’s your reason?
Leonard Levy wasn’t a lawyer either, nor was his protege William J. Cuddihy, nor was yet another esteemed Constitutional historian, Jack Rakove of Stanford.
Maybe I should just toss those books in the trash because [1] I am not a lawyer, and [2] nether were they.
And my skylight is leaking !
Same here in Georgia, it’s hard to complain about the rain after the drought we just went through.
Well, that explains everything, Mr. Yoo.
Thanks.
I haven’t seen anything in what he has done that would rise to Impeachment!!
He lied in Senate hearings re: overturning precedents.
Well I am a lawyer, and you sound like a ****************.
This is a forum for discussing ideas, not one in which folks come in to play their “status” cards [lawyer, Harvard] to shut others up.
Your vote doesn’t count any more on election day than that of the homeless guy who gets himself to the voting booth, and that’s the way it should be. From what you’ve demonstrated here, the homeless guy’s vote should count more.
And what hctomorrow said @ 54:
Edited **** and released by Mod
Hmm, I wonder if that falls under, “I changed”?
Well, but do you have a good gig to play tonight? *g*
“This is a forum for discussing ideas, not one in which folks come in to play their “status” cards ”
___
Exactly. All the more galling when it comes from those like “ART45″ who hide behind non-linked anonymous screen names.
Could be change he believes in but the case was not originally about the broader issue of corporate “personhood” until he asked it to be. Methinks he over reached.
I spent nearly 25 years in one or another radical political organization so, yes, it’s true the public is a big, big, big, big problem. No doubt about it.
But somehow enough Progressives in the 30s, 50s, 60s and 70s were able to get enough of them organized to put enough pressure on Washington to pass the New Deal and the Great Society.
So, somehow Progressives today are, what, inherently incapable of doing it again?
I just wonder if that is impeachable.
My cats are now at the Tropicana. I’m off to cever another gig tonight.
shiza!!!
dam get the caulking out!!
yup!!
It is not any kind of requirement to have a link behind your screen name. We welcome people who have links back to their own place, and we also welcome people who choose to comment with just a nom de plume.
Olbermann’s Special Comment tonight is required viewing, if you want to appreciate the real life consequences that will flow from this decision.
I’m gonna have nightmares tonight. Probably about being chased by the corporations and the Moderator lol.
You watching Fox or the SyFy channel?
Next time you visit Philadelphia don’t forget to see the Liberty Taco Bell.
The ultimate BACK Door for China AND Russia to take over America.
Simply buy a U.S. corporation, and buy every politician you need.
The Communists HAVE WON the whole ball of wax.
Once a foreign controlling interest in a U.S. corporation is in place, the Catholic Supremes will be replaced with people who may not even speak English.
Hey, even better, the Saudis can now buy the U.S. and install Islam. Yes, the Catholic Supremes have just cluster-f****d America.
The anonymous post thing is fraught with peril. There is a facebook group in Athens trying to get it removed from the local paper.
R.I.P. U.S.A. Some real highs and despite the lows a pretty decent run. Drop over at HP. There throwing quite a wake. BYO of course.
the shotgun conspiracy theory?
How about the government tax political contributions? Human contributors would get a $10,000 yearly deductible, corporations no deductible. All Political contributions would then be taxed at 90%. It would make the pay to play.
Sigh–personally, I think they all have Kent State on the brain, ya know? The whole left wing protest game changed when it became clear they were willing to kill us for peacefully protesting.
Yeah, I know that, of course, but getting arrogantly talked down to by someone who puffs him/her self up while hiding behind anonymity is tiresome, and I just call bullshit.
That is why we all call each other Pups
Yeah, one could wish it though. Maybe Masaccio is right – pack the court. But that seems unlikely too.
I have always had trouble though with the ‘personhood’ concept being granted to corporations. Can they now plead the 5th if they are put on trial or pay off witnesses in jury trials ? Isn’t that money being exchanged just more free speech?
if he was under oath and told a flat lie and it can be proven, he should receive a strong look of contempt.
Supreme Court Justices aren’t going to get impeached for anything like that.
If they’re too old, drunken, or flat crazy, they got pressured into retirement,… eventually, and assuming that they fail to die.
If you’re not talking felony, forget it.
thanks I was afraid of that.
Speaking of pups – some sad news in Jane’s diary over at seminal.
Kent State wasn’t exactly peaceful. I’m not saying it was any way warranted but still. . .
I for one welcome our new fascist overlords, and only hope that once they have consolidated power they will dissolve the then purposeless appendage of the Supreme Court and put those traitors out of a job.
People like Russ Feingold helped seat those creatures by voting to let their nominations proceed out of the judiciary committee and to the floor for a vote. They cold have at least been harassed as much as Justice Sotomayor was
Well, if they are people,we need to reinstitute the draft.
Send their butts over to the same war theaters where they are making all that blood money off war profiteering and mercenary – i.e.,Blackwater,Halliburton,DynCorps, Triple Canopy,KBR- contracts.
Absolutely.. seems the left gives in to easily on SCOTUS Judges in the Senate…
No, the Communist will sell the Capitalist the rope to hang itself theory.
Haven’t read comments, but Masaccio, what a GREAT read and closing point.
Really, really always value your life experience and knowledge in the matters you post on.
Thanks so much.
Copy that.
You’re right. I don’t want to understand someone who claims with a straight face to be speaking ‘the truth as best humans understand it’.
That’s hubris on a monumental scale. Or insanity.
But I guess I can just wallow in my ignorance.
When did perjury stop being a felony?
“The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it’s profitable to continue the illusion.
At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.”
–Frank Zappa
Check your history. There was no violent behavior at the time and place where the shootings happened.
In other words, “Broken Hearts Are For Assholes.”
;)
We the People empowered the Gov’t a long time ago when we started giving up our rights, and it’s – the Gov’t – been growing ever since. The Gov’t grows on the former rights of We the People, but it needs money to operate. I went to prison for taking money that didn’t belong to me, but the Gov’t can take whatever amount it wants ‘Legally’.
Big Gov’t now needs lots of money. It uses the Federal Income Tax as a cash-flow, taking roughly 97% of that from the Top 50% of wage earners (includes individuals and/or couples earning around $29K a year), and the other 3% comes from the Bottom 50% of wage earners. Since Big Gov’t is always growing as new We the People give up our rights, its operating – and ‘Other’ – expenses also grow. We the People couldn’t afford a Big Gov’t this size without help…lots of help.
In steps the Unions, Corporations, etc…
Benito Mussolini explained that “fascism” should more properly be called “corporatism” as it is “the merger of state and corporate power.”
The United States of America has morphed into the Fourth Reich, complete with rapacious expansionism, rabid nationalism, pervasive corruption, religious intolerance (of Muslims), blind obedience to an unaccountable leader, torture camps, corporate political ascendancy and slave labor.
Whatever Democracy existed in the United States has expired. The America I grew up in has passed. If history is a guide, we not-rich, natural people have some very rough sledding ahead. Voting for “progressive” candidates won’t help. Reforming the Democratic Party and/or the national political system is impossible. The United States government is now a wholly owned subsidiary of the rich. You and your families are both the raw materials and cogs in the wheel of a huge multinational corporate-government-military-financial conglomerate.
Welcome to the empire of the amoral.
Good luck.
Art45, The Supreme Court did not get it right because corporations are artifical persons and the Bill of Rights was written with real persons in mind. There is really no doubt about this based on the Federalist Papers, and other records of the time. The Supreme Court with its 19th century decisions about corporations and now with its latest decision on corporate free speech have legislated a political monster and the greatest threat to individual liberty we have ever seen in this country in the name of that liberty.
At this point, I think the Supreme Court has overstepped its constitutional authority. Congress must pack it with 6 more justices, and then pass a new law only slighty different from the old laws, and then re-litigate the question. The Supreme Court is supposed to protect the rights of individuals not destroy them.
I agree, but a constitutional amendment will take too long. We can pack the Court immediately to throw this decision out and then pass the Constitutional Amendment.
He’s a tax laywer who once wrote a paper about the 1st Amendment.
Evidently. BTW, Supreme Court Justices can be impeached.
I hink it should be 6 more, just to make sure. And yes, it just requires a simple majority of both Houses, if you can get past the filibuster in the Senate.
Geebus FUCKSTICK who ARE these people, Pups?
It goes on and on, day after day.
Useless, incessant, continual bantering of shit at the site or the regulars or at issues they refuse to offer links or attributions to.
I know I pontificate a bit at times, but at least everyone knows it’s an OPINION, not a given proclaimed truth.
Heh, listen to me . . . back post Libbygate, I ranted my ass off for paragraphs and more . . . still do, sometimes.
LeSigh.
Still, it’s quite magnified, this idiocy that’s infested FDL.
Glad the core and the management and the posters are all still handling it well.
Kudo’s to all Pups and site owner, management, workers.
That’s some jumbled mess of philosophy you got there.
I don’t get your point.
What a load of responsibility-avoiding crap. We didn’t lose the election! It’s all Nader’s fault!
You’re suggesting that Gore either 1) didn’t realize the stakes in the contest, which makes him unfit to be President, or 2) he did realize the stakes and rolled over anyway, which makes him unfit to be President. A President’s job is to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in his first and only test as President Gore (and the D’s as a whole) failed.
When Democrats accept that it’s was their and Gore’s fault for not appealing to more voters (any 600 of whom would have won Florida for Gore), or Gore’s fault alone for caving in the face of a bunch of whining, fat, white Republican office workers and giving the country to Bush rather than fight for us, then they’ll have grown enough spine to be able to do something.
Until then we’ll just get more of what we have today – Democratic impotence.
The only people who make the Republicans look good are the Democrats.
There’s a Senate, there’s a House.
There are two Chambers Of Congress.
There are NOT two Houses of Congress.
Engrish.
He’s saying that the law of this country is not democratic, it is ecclesiastic, the weapon of an elite class. After this ruling, he may be right.
Olberman forgot two consequences-debtors’ prisons & work camps.
Soon to be replaced in heavy rotation by “The Torture Never Stops.” :-(
The corporations already are over there, and doing quite well, thank you.
Legal fictions are theoretically subject to the 13th Amendment, aren’t they?
To me that says entire multinational corporations can be effectively nationalized for the commission of a crime. Profits can be confiscated; activity in commerce can be compelled, limited, governed or suspended; even the death penalty can be applied. The best part is that right to appeal to a fascist SCOTUS can be applied, same as Clinton signed into law for death penalty cases.
Am I missing something?
(Geez, people, leave ART alone. He’s arguing law. His haters are arguing morality. I haven’t read the decision yet, and I am just barely fluent in legalese, but ART could just have a point that, given the Constitution and the legal fictions we have and not the ones we wish we had, Jane’s own political activities might be curtailed were the law in question upheld.)
Transnational, multinational, global corporations.
The Chinese, the French, the Venezuelans legally buying our elected officials.
Wonder what Lou Dobbs, Beck, and the rest of the ‘blow up the UN wingers’ are going to think about this turn of events, – you think there’s been potentially some major overreach here? Do you think if we frame it right, the wingers might say – fuck that shit, traitors, etc?!
Yoo hoo, Larue!
Come upstairs to the “Youth Vote Collapsed” thread
I agree. Now let’s get busy and start that movement for individual freedom fueled by their idiot over-reaching. Corporations Are Not People; Let’s Shut Them Up.
Dobbs, Beck et al are mere carny performers for corporations. Useful idiots.
That wasn’t a screwup, it was a completely intentional corporate maneuver.
This crap has been going on for a long, long time.
“The people who own this country ought to run it.” – John Jay
when you can’t show that it’s perjury.
Sorry Larue, the expression Two Houses of Congress and the allied expression the Upper House (for the Senate) and the Lower House (for the House of Representatives), are both in common usage. In fact, I can’t remember the last time I heard the two Houses of Congress referred to as “Chambers,” and apart from being pretty religious about keeeping up with American Politics I’m also a Ph.D. in Political Science. So, I seriously doubt that I’ve made a mistake on this point, though to be fair, it is always possible that I’ve made a mistake, having made more than a few in my time.
Who’s “he,” Art or myself.
If French corporations bought the U.S. Congress perhaps then there would be universal health care. After all French corporations realize that providing universal health care is actually good for the bottom line. Maybe there really is a silver lining.
May I suggest you go over to Emptywheel and read the almost 400 posts on this matter?
(I REALLY must remember to post the snark tag ,which I left off in my upthread post.)
Fact is, and I sound like a broken record, Nader warned people TEN years ago about corporate fascism and no one listened. Well, he was right. We are now living the nightmare. We desperately need a third party to hurt the Dems.
Better would be to end the lifetime terms for Supreme Court judges and have them elected by the people for no more than 12 years. Seems pay to play goes all the way to the Supreme Court. All the more reason to have term limits with recall provisions after what, six years? Let’s expound on this more.
Hate to break it to you – I was watching C-Span.
“No no no! It’s all Nader’s fault!” – Democrats for Personal Accountability
Not sure what exactly you said. But on the subject of their personhood. Are foreign coprorations operating in the United States entitled to the same free speech protections as American citizens are? If not, why can’t we regulate their speech?
seriously, though. (considering that erasing the top 10 floors of the UN would really be cool) – if I was a soft winger (Libertarian, Independent), realizing that some Chinese or French owned corporation has more sway over my Rep. than myself and in effect will be deciding for me how to live my life, – I’d be pissed and ready to water that fucking tree if necessary.
Are you off your rocker? You’ve just seen an unprecedented increase in corporate power overnight and all you can talk about is the power of the Government. The problem is that the Government isn’t powerful enough to reign in the coprorations.
The Constitution, through preemption and reverse incorporation, can also limit what state constitutions might otherwise allow.
In any case, any corporation that conducts interstate trade has to submit to commerce clause pre-emption. If the Congress makes a finding that, eg., certain parts of Delaware law are contrary to the public interest and need be limited in its effectiveness under federal law, it can do so under the commerce clause.
Similarly, a corporation that is incorporated in Delaware is not necessarily entitled to recognition as a foreign corporation by New York or Iowa. Since that corporation does not exist in those states, how does it have some sort of unregulated first amendment rights in those states?
There are all sorts of interesting ramifications here with the Federal Courts recognizing rights that the states that created the corporations do not necessarily recognize. It is a profoundly antifederalist ruling that has tons of interesting and unanticipated ramifications. It is also the most outrageous bit of judicial activism since the Lochner era. A similar remedy is in order.
Unfortunately I was watching C-Span.
…and all along I thought “The Matrix” was fiction.
Anybody remember William O. Douglas? He survived two impeachment attempts and a stroke before he decided to retire. Supreme Court justices remain on the bench until they decide to leave, or die.
Anhything is impeachable if Congress decides that it is. It is not within the authority of the Supreme Court to review Congressional decisions about impeachment. That’s what checks and balances is about. The Congress gets to check the Court in various ways. It can determine its size, its resources, the salaries of its personnel and also impeach its Justices deciding in the process what are “high crimes and misdemeanors.”
No, friend. I don’t think you understand. Government is the large business corporations and large business corporations are the government.
This is called fascism.
and how many times has it impeached a Justice? or convicted one?
Yes, I do.
And he married a MUCH younger woman,Cathy, I think was, her name.
Ofcourse, that had nothing to do with his impeachment,as I recall.
This has strange ramificiations. Let’s say New York State doesn’t like Halliburton’s politics, so it doesn’t recognize it as a foreign corporation entitled to do business in New York. Then can it speak in New York since it is not a person there. And, if it cannot speak in New York, can it make political contributions to persons who can participate in New York State Senate or even in elections for the Federal Senate within the State? This decision really shapes up as a can of worms.
why aren’t corporations limited to donations of 4300 dollars, like real people are?
Fascism is capitalism in decay.
Lenin
Can’t we? Time, place, manner? Manner certainly includes volume, doesn’t it?
My point is that the definition of “person” or “whoever” under 1 USC 1 applies throughout the USC (not least Title 18) and CFR unless specifically excluded. I believe, with a heavy heart, that ART is correct in his observation that SCOTUS correctly decided the case they decided to hear. The breakage that allowed this decision to be issued is outside the scope of the case the Court decided to hear. The breakage is in the Court reformulating the case to their taste, it’s all over the law, it’s all over SCC v. SPRR, in fact, Washington is lousy with it. There are many links in the chain, many of those which are vulnerable.
I definitely am not endorsing corporate personhood, and I’d love to see any and all legal means brought to bear on having the Fascist Five strung up for treason. But courts are not in the business of addressing morality; they closest they rightly come is the public interest, and too rarely do they even tread there.
How many times has the Supreme Court acted so outrageously? Anyway, we’re in a time of great change. That change has been accelerated by this decision of the Court. Who knows what the response will be? Who knows what will happen? And, in any case, a good movement for impeachment, accompanied by a Court packing movement, street demonstrations, and real outrage may give rise to “a switch in time saves nine,” once again.
I know, I know. But I don’t think we’re there just yet.
I think that if individuals sue claiming that money is speech, this Supreme Court will get rid of that limit too. In fact, if money is speech, then I don’t see why any of the laws regulating campaign contributions are legal.
He never backed away from a good scrap.
Thanks massacio. This is a great one.
I know but it still sucks…sigh..
I like your first question. If you would be interested, you could probably work up and post something pretty interesting from that.
As for the rest, I doubt that this decision is going to spark much public indignation.
If it’s still much spoken of after two weeks, I’ll be pleasantly surprised.
You won’t get any argument from me on the ineptitude of the Gore campaign. And Gore, like Clinton, is a DLC Wall Street Democrat.
But based on my own analysis of the 2000 race, had Nader not run Gore would have won. And though that would have meant very little with respect to either economic or foreign policy, what Democrats have historically embraced are far more liberal Supreme Court justices. Had Gore been sworn in, Alito and Roberts would have gotten no where near the highest court in the land. And everything this reactionary pro-business branch of the government has done, does now and will continue to do for years to come is, in my opinion, predicated in part on Ralph Nader’s fucking ego.
I am God. If you are not a God then you are not competent to argue with me.
I wrote a tablet on 1st amendment Constitutional law when I was a young God, in God school, therefore I know it all.
And I have judged that equating a bloodless Corporation with a living, breathing, human being is an argument which stinketh, and offends the Nostrils of Heaven.
I have further judged that filthy lucre does NOT equal speech. Dollars do not = words. To believe so is to blaspheme and profess divine absurdity.
And a warning to all lawyers: Most of you are an arrogant, stubborn and stiff-necked people, for whom I have reserved a niche in purgatory.
But for a wicked few, who freely to choose to violate my 2 previous judgements, thou art condemned to a particularly toasty spot in the Eternal Fire. I Have Spoken.
http://frederickfoxtrott.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/oh-my-god-cover-art.jpg
Just what we need, Progressive Communist France 2003, the Health ministry could not afford to by a $98 Wall Mart air conditioner so 15,000. Grandmas died in just one month over and above the natural death rate. Not to mention the thousands that died in the other progressive Marxist countries around France. Read history 101. http://www.usatoday.com/weather/news/2003-09-25-france-heat_x.htm
Hey ART45,
Since you opened the door re: qualifications, are you av rated by Martindale?
Wow, a six and a half year old story about a catastrophic and unexpected heat wave killing people. Which never happens in the US. Which you blame solely on a lack of money for cheap window AC units.
Because, you know, if you have the cash, air conditioners magically appear, install themselves, and additional power capacity appears to run them. It’s not like air conditioning consumes enormous amounts of power and results in blackouts, or that it takes time to manufacture equipment, or that not every elderly grandma can install her own AC, or anything.
Note that in the article you link, never once is installing air conditioners mentioned as a solution, nor is a shortage of funds to do so blamed.
Made them people today, right?
What about we make ‘em corporations again tomorrow?
Well, actually, they made them people a long time ago, and have been gradually padding the illusion with additional rights ever since.
I’d have thought it was obvious that they were not, in fact, people. People are born, they get a birth certificate, they grow old and they die, at which point we issue a death certificate. Seems simple enough.
Corporations do none of those things, and yet here we are, talking about their right to do something that no corporation has ever in the history of mankind done: speak.
I’d gladly concede the point and agree to give them these rights if they could, anywhere, show me how a legal construct, a bodiless, lifeless thing, ink on paper, can speak.
Oops. Sorry, hctomorrow. I hit a reply spot that I thought was that lunatic lawyer ART45. The one who presumes that extensive experience and exhausive study of “THE LAW” outweighs any concept of fair, right, or moral, and is therefore clearly demented.
I would hope that someone would remind him that the reason for lawyers to exist is to achieve JUSTICE. A concept for which he seems to have no affinity whatsoever.
Kinda funny final statement when you’re debating whether this ruling is in conformity with the Constitution
No indeed, Ragg. Lawyers and law are necessary because we so rarely achieve justice.
I’m admitting that if pieces of paper came to life and started to speak on their own, my worldview would shift.
If inanimate objects gain sentient life, I’d think we would ALL have some adjusting to do.
…..show me how a bodiless, lifeless thing, ink on paper,can speak~~~~~~~
Ever hear the phrase, “Money Talk$”??
I think you’ve got a point, within limits. Der Fuhrer and Il Duce had a little problem with civil rights, FDR never suspended habeas corpus, not like George W. tried to, and back then the people of the USA and GB were never overtly circumscribed in their right to piss and moan. The people actually believed in their democracy, unlike the Germans and Italians, who knew better. We just today found out how wrong we were.
Yes. But that’s an oversimplification. What it really says is ‘Money, representing Power, can easily substitute for reasoned argument when properly dispersed’. It’s not as catchy, so we shorten it.
Corporations can’t speak. They have human officers who take it upon themselves to speak on their behalf. They themselves, however, have no thoughts, opinions, feelings, neither live nor die, and do not deserve the rights that we bestow on people (and, presumably, other sentient life, should it emerge).
You people are getting way too worked up over this Supreme Court decision. Obama has already said there needs to be a bipartisan response to this. I’m not kidding. That’s what he said.
So you see, it will all be taken care of. You know, like health care reform has been.
Cute. And yes, I understand the adversary system, but we’re not arguing for a client in court. We’re discussing a principle of democracy in open forum.
I guess it just sets my teeth on edge when someone resorts to argument from authority, in any context; and in this case it is so inappropriate as to make me pull my hair.
I at least got something out of Art’s rantings: I’m starting a D&D game next week, and playing a Paladin, so I needed lessons in how to talk like a self-righteous, elitist fanatic.
I can use most of his comments on this thread verbatim. Sweet!
Ah, hc, corporations do indeed “exist” and they are potential “immortals” which poses a problem all of its own.
Immortals among we mere mortals have the advantage. For such immortals have no conscience, indeed they cannot and must not, for corporatioins have but one purpose, to make money … forever.
But corporations actually are simply the means by which the humans who control the corporations are personally shielded from any and all responsibility … except to make money.
So the Law has declared that money is more sacred than life or humanity.
This is now, truly, the Age of the Divine Right of Money.
Welcome to the new dark age – we are ten years into it, the new millenium, the future and “looking forward …”
DW
In short: “Vapulation will continue until morale improves.”
Actually, what John Roberts did was clear up a long running dispute. The court actually found that Southern Pacific was not a “person”, but the clerk of the court recorded it wrong. Nothing was ever done to correct this error; which seems to indicate an abnormally successful conspiracy: The court didn’t have the gall to find Southern Pacific a person, but if the clerk recorded it backwards, and nobody howled, well, let it stand. I say John Roberts, but of course, you know I speak of the Catholic Mafia.
I disagree. The artificial construct of corporations was arbitrarily included under the umbrella of the term “persons” in the 14th Amendment. The wording of the Amendment itself was not altered to include business constructs and would not change should corporations cease to exist.
The term “persons” in the document was understood to mean human beings and referred solely to beings which were biological- actually born.
“Corporation” has its own legal definition which does not include claims of biological existence.
A tragedy of that magnitude only demonstrates how a controlling workers party will gleefully punish the evil corporations until everyone is equally poor. They cut their own throat with mandated short work weeks, and very long paid vacations so the infrastructure to cool a house or take care the sick doesn’t exist. Note: the health care workers were all on vacation at the beach when they were needed the most. We should learn from socialist Europe.
At the risk of injecting some fact into this opinion fest, I previously researched the the case of Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad, Company for an essay I wrote, late in 2004, on the rising fascist tide in the US gov’t. I read the case, and the commentaries. The Chief Justice announced that corporations were persons for purpose of the equal protection clause before arguments started. This was extraordinary. The Clerk recorded it in the headnotes. This pronouncement was not discussed as part of the written decision itself as it was not argued or decided within the context of the cases’ issues. Rather it was presupposed by the Court without argument, discussion or explanation.
It is a mistake to blame this rule on clerical error. It was judicial activism of a high order.
Sadly, most people believe that there can’t be fascism without concentration camps for Jews, goosestepping troops and Roman salutes.
The reality is that once big capital capital buys up the government, it is fascism. This was the essence of the definitions stated by Mussolini and FDR.
What we now have here in the U.S. fits the definition.
I’ve been reading this twisted piece of addled activism: Wow! what a mess!
First,I have never heard a corporation speak. I have heard, or seen, or read, speech by individuals, sometimes individuals representing a corporation. Every position paper ever distributed by a corporation had to be composed by an individual, or group of individuals, whether they are identified or not. Even a severely disabled individual can, of their own volition, create a document and express themselves. An entity that cannot speak nor create a document of its own volition, that has no animus in and of itself, cannot have a right to free speech. Individuals control a corporation, and those individuals, as individuals, already have their own rights of free speech. The First Amendment of the Constitution says “the people have the right to assemble and to petition their government. It does not say that assemblies of people under incorporation have those rights. The fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments refer to persons born or naturalized in the United States having constitutional rights, including the right to vote. Despite the fiction of the Santa Clara case, no corporation can, without human action, cast a vote. If an individual or group of individuals casts a vote on behalf of a corporation they control, they are casting multiple votes, a violation of the “one person, one vote” dictum of democracy.
A monetary contribution is not speech. It is a financial transaction. If I pay money to Al Qaeda in America and claim it was in consideration for political advocacy, does anyone think I would get a pass?
No distinction between for-profit and non-profit, despite their contributive intent or their ability to distort, as recognized by Austin.
To inhibit free speech of corporations would inhibit media: Media should be required, under disclosure, an argument within this ruling itself, to stipulate what is the opinion of said media corporation and what is information. Olberman and O’Reilly should be labeled as opinion and, if Fox News or MSNBC wishes to inveigh a corporate opinion, these entities should be required to disclose that. Olberman and other responsible journalists disclose when NBC or GE are materially involved with a topic; how many times has Fox News omitted that disclosure in their “reportage”?
No consideration of prior restraint. So, government can cordon protestors and regulate their speech under threat of legal penalty, but a corporation doesn’t have to consider whether any media distribution, cable OD or broadcast, or anything they say, as long as it’s not advocacy for or against a particular candidate, or its functional equivalent, may be restricted. Anything distributed for public consumption, whether it is free or for sale, is public, no matter if the market happens to be 50, 50,000, or fifty million. In ruling invalid the advice function of the FEC, an agency created by another branch of the government, in such a sweeping advocacy of the civil rights of non-human corporations, and doing so in a precedentiary and not a case-by-case basis, this ruling is in fact judicial activism creating law. No consideration even of imminent danger. I suppose Debs could still be imprisoned, too far afield for the bias of this sweeping ruling.
No consideration of whether that corporate entity is domestic or foreign. No citizenship test. Royal Dutch Shell has as much (more, see above) access to the U.S. political forum as you do. Expressly allowed in the ruling, without condition, as long as they’re incorporated in the U.S.
I could go on: the pathetic ad-hominem defense of this decision by citing possible infractions by the Sierra Club and NRA, the indolent complaint of PACs having to appoint people to file documents before they (the PACs) can speak (see above for the stupidity of that statement), etc., etc. But this should be enough to demonstrate the degenerate ignorance of the rightist intellect, the abject imbecility of the majority of this Supreme Court, its wanton disregard of history, legitimate governance, even common human logic, and the monstrous travesty of this injudicious decision.
Hmmm, a freak (maybe not, considering the statement about global warming) weather phenomenon in an otherwise temperate climate. The Institute of Medicine reported that 18,000 Americans die each year because of inaccessibility to health care. Now, take a break from studying history 101 so assiduously, take a trip to your local Walmart, and ask the non-union and under-insured clerk if he/she has 15,000 $98 air conditioners-even ones made in China, if that’s all they have-in stock. Oh, and you want those delivered and installed, different addresses. Oh, and your credit’s good, but you need them right away, it’s been unusually hot lately. And don’t forget to thank them; considering how President “gotta clear some brush down on the ranch” Bush and his small-government approach responded to Hurricane Katrina, you don’t know what you’d do if it wasn’t for the bold action in the public interest of private enterprise.
This is Tea-party mentality. All non-qualified income-dividends (except federal for state & local bonds, stock held in qualified plans until distribution requirements are met) profits (including profits from inheritance), wages and tips (after qualified payroll deduction)even from your part-time Burger King job, even certain pensions-is taxed, according to percentage thresholds to compensate for cost of living. Exemptions (including money withheld surpassing the income schedules according to the tax tables) allow a refund of taxed money after the year in which it was earned or accrued and taxed. It makes no sense to cite statistics of which household pay taxes, unless you include households with undeclared and/or illegal income. Especially if you use an arbitrary category that allows such a low threshold as 29,000/yr, with no regard for levels of discretionary income over a minimal cost of living.
And this ruling concerns individuals seeking governmental office through the media marketplace, not the size of the government in which they seek office. Once they are in office, however, they are beholden to the big interests who funded their campaigns. Laws are passed and budgets are enlarged for contracts to reward large donors. Hence government is enlarged for the benefit of private interests, not public. When this private largesse at public expense causes social breakdown, social security and welfare, what some call “entitlement”, programs are needed. Which expands the burden and also the size of government.
In Lockeian terms, the government has been been made too small and exclusive. As citizens in a democratic republic, we are all members of the government. People who rail against “big government”, including Teapartiers, should admit they are against themselves, or concede that they are not citizens, but subjects.