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This would’ve been great in, say, January of 2009.
President Barack Obama plans a combative response if, as White House aides fear, Democrats lose Tuesday’s special Senate election in Massachusetts, close advisers say. [...]
The health care backdrop has given the White House a strong incentive to strike a defiant posture, at least rhetorically, in response to what would be an undeniable embarrassment for the president and his party.
There won’t be any grand proclamation that “the era of Big Government is over” — the words President Bill Clinton uttered after Republicans won the Congress in the 1990s and he was forced to trim a once-ambitious agenda.
“The response will not be to do incremental things and try to salvage a few seats in the fall,” a presidential adviser said. “The best political route also happens to be the boldest rhetorical route, which is to go out and fight and let the chips fall where they may. We can say, ‘At least we fought for these things, and the Republicans said no.’”
Great thinking Rahm Captain Obvious!
Better late than never, I guess.
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BT, you had everyone and his grandmother stirred up yesterday. Great stuff!
The best offense is Wednesday morning quarterbacking?
Think Obama will get aggressive with the FBI for making phony threats in order to obtain illegal wiretaps?
Will he make Holder re-open the investigation into Gitmo murders that Holder shut down?
Or will we get more Look Forward, Slide Backward?
Wait for it….
Again….
Go out and FIGHT –
Democrats…
Go out and fight – bold yet…..
………………
bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Democrats – Fight – Bold –
Can’t breathe – Too funny……….
Rhambama is scrappy – Gonna fight ————-
Bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
OMG…………………..
You’re not suggesting we withhold our money/support/vote from whatever craptacular nominee with a D behind their name shows up on the ballot, are you?
Watch out, or you’ll be scolded to ‘Grow the Fuck Up.’
Right Blue Texan?
Uninspiring empty rhetorical, the substance of O administration.
Mitt is explaining it all on Joe.
Bet this turns out to mean stiffing the left again.
What cynical? Moi?
Croak!
“boldest rhetorical route”
I asked a co-worker on Friday (I’m white, he’s black) a rambling question that was basically – WTF is MLK day about this year ??? Waffling with the Big 0 so that the fascists don’t lie about us ?? … yawn. Great DukakisGoreClintonKerry stratergery there!
Anyway, skimming the blogs this a.m., I see a diary reco’d in someone’s list and the diary is about ‘how I said a MLK speech’
our parasite class of white collar workers work, but, little to none of it matters worth bottle cap of cold piss – and that is just about ALL of you college educated paper pushers. Of course, putting together a speech is work, it just don’t really figure out how to systemically fix much of anything that matters. From a social class which thinks itself as the invaluable thinkers …
“boldest rhetorical route” might work to get ‘em back in line!
Personally, I need hard, concrete stuff – rules that do NOT force me to subsidize the FUCKING SCUM running AIG or AHIP, in fact, rules that hold the FUCKING SCUM accountable. If I went out in the street and punched 10 people and took their wallets, I get years. How come these FUCKING SCUM ain’t getting decades?
“boldest rhetorical route” – I already got the Big speeches there Big Zero, and I got the Big Sell Outs Big Zero, and I got the Big Lies Big Zero,
how about some results?
How about about real investment in real jobs, not 7 figure assholes shuffling paper on AAA Rated Ponzi Pyramid CDOs. I hope coakley loses.
rmm.
Right winger wins prez in Chile. A Pinochet wannabe according to democracynow.
Great!
Someone else for Obama to ask to lead another charity effort!
I really need an answer to the question I asked yesterday: what has happened to Firedoglake? Jane was fighting so hard to kill the Senate HCR that she even teamed with grover norquist, and then two surrogates, including you, had front page posts attacking in rahmbo fashion anyone not wanting to support coakley because she would keep the 60-40 dim advantage. The comments went down hill from there. There was no real moderator intervention until way late, and it was very ineffective. I have really never seen such venom here, especially between people supposedly on the same side.
What is the advantage of the 60 votes when harry reid is the Majority Leader, and he is an advocate for joe LIEberman (we all know his story). reid also has to include ben nelson, evan bayh, et al in that group. Whichever way we go obamarahma can interpret it to mean that they need to move farther to the right. After all, it was on this site that I first saw the support from big insurers/pharma for coakley.
I don’t understand this whole picture. Are we supposed to be in Jane’s veal pen and have a rahmbo type whipping regularly? I am not sure of the timeline, but did all of this occur after the Krugman accusation that Jane, Marcy, and Greenwald were obstructionist? Is she for or against the Senate HCR?
Dr. Kissinger must be so proud.
Controversy = Clicks
Clicks = Revenue/Semblance of relevance
Well said.
confusing ain’t it? Wait till Coakley loses and Obama goes further to the right, the howls will be deafening!
So maybe the ‘message’ that voters( Independents and disgruntled progressives)in MA are sending is being received?
Not till everyone sees WHAT and WHO will be fought for.
Then we’ll know if they got the ‘message’.
That would be the same Kissinger who described Chile as a dagger pointed at the heart of Patagonia. Pure interventionist evil for no purpose whatsoever.
Wrong. I helped advance the career of the dear Dr. Kissinger.
NPR: Obameter re. promises kept/broken. Pretty interesting.
ex: Promises broken about Lobbist; In the Works about Gitmo, etc.
Didn’t he invent dominoes too?
Yes.
Stranger still, someone in BT’s thread yesterday suggested that being scolded to vote for someone simply because of their party affiliation was like being told to “lay back and enjoy it.”
Well, all hell broke loose with threats of bannings, “How dare you invoke rape?!,” etc.
Then this morning Turk links to this:
Think he’ll be banned?
Talk about a ‘Super Bowl of Hypocrisy’!
Missing “t” in your comment?
Digby abides.
Some people are more equal than others.
Mornin’, BT, pups, trolls
I’ve got cowpie for the entree and moose turd pie for dessert for all the trolls we’ll get today. And a couple of punch bowls of horse piss to quench their thirst. Can’t let the trolls go hungry.
“Oh no!!!! Not the soft pillow!!!”
Ouch!
My best guess at what Jane is about is this. Before Democrats in general get a spine, “progressive” Democrats need to get a spine. The 65 or so “progressive” Democrats have the power to make or break a health care bill. They should use this power to extract more progressive provisions in the bill. But to have that power be credible, they must be prepared to kill any bill from the House side or Senate side that is unacceptable. But that strategy was in the context of a nominal 60-seat Senate majority. While electing Coakley doesn’t change that political environment, electing Brown does and not just on healthcare reform–on everything. Effectively what little leverage House members had on bills disappears because there is not any possibility that even if they were willing (and willing has been the sticking point so far) that Obama and Rahm could twist Senate arms and get anything through. The loss of House leverage gives “progressives” in Congress back the cover of being able to rhetorically stand for good things without ever having to vote for them.
And it is the nuance in that strategy that creates misunderstanding and acrimony.
The advantage of a nominal 60-vote majority in the Senate is that it gives House progressives nowhere to hide. It has to do with the dynamics between the Houses of Congress.
“Bold rhetorical route?” I’ll bet that translates into wiping up the floor with Progressives, in the hope of pleasing the Republicans whose approval he seems so desperately to need.
He’s already following Carter’s logic of “So what if I disappointed you. That’s not the problem. The problem is I’m losing popularity and it’s all YOUR fault”. The logic of a true high-school cheerleading-clique diva.
Nice post BT. Sadly, I have to disagree with your bottom line, for reasons you already know. Using reconciliation now is not better late than never because of the power it gives the GOP this fall. They can say (rightly) that Dems “changed the rules” when they didn’t get what they wanted.
Had they done so at the beginning of the game, two years would have passed before the mid-terms, and we’d have a health care bill of which we’d be proud. Instead, we’re getting a piece of toilet paper with which I wouldn’t wipe my ass.
Just a friendly reminder: Sockpuppeting is not permitted here at Firedoglake and may be grounds for banning. Thanks.
Can we stop the demagogue about trolls? I have seen few trolls. What I have seen is people, progressives heavily frustrated from being sold-out once again, and covering for the WH failures with nothing in return as usual.
We differ in strategy (let Coakley / WH fail or not) to how to move the pols, but last time I checked we had still the same progressive agendas.
So STOP this troll calling, it’s just as destruvtive as the (most times imaginary) trolling you try to ‘fix’.
Cool if words match action I can’t ask for anything more lets see what happens.
I have no objection to the jointly-signed letter with Norquist, because Jane’s explanation made sense to me, but I am troubled by the constantly negative, nasty tone FDL has taken on in the past couple of months. I’ve only been coming here for 2 or 3 years, and it was my favorite place to hang out, but lately it isn’t much fun. Front page posts are negative and critical of just about everything, Jane wades into the comments and chews out the commenters and calls them names, and the commenters themselves, even the “regulars” I view as virtual friends, are slamming and sniping each other — or they’re just leaving. And of course, we have a lot more trolls. Are we missing Christy’s moderating, positive influence? What is happening to my favorite blog? Are we getting carried away by 600+ comments on some posts? Is it really just the clicks we’re after? (SIGH)
And on edit: I also am troubled by the vendettas that seem to go on lately. Like, for example, Hadassah Lieberman, which consumed the place for a few days and then disappeared. Like, for example, several commenters calling out an exaggeration of the magnitude of Gruber’s funding, without any follow up response to explain to us why the amount listed is nearly double what some people say is justifiable. (I don’t disagree with the fact that Gruber’s lack of disclosure is shameful.)
If the foo shits, wear it. If not, ignore it. I also stopped taking orders when I got out of the Navy.
Image of the day: Mitt Romney talking to MoJo about the “Democratic royalists”
Scheiss.
You seem to have missed the part where Obama added “… for your plutocratic lords and masters, you peasants!”
Rob a liquor store do time steal billions get a WH job. Summers and the Harvard endowment games playing with CDS is worse than going to Vegas with investors money and trying to count cards.
Would this be the same Mitt Romney?
Their market has been doing really well but does anyone want to bet Enron accounting helped the numbers I suspect their market will crash hard next banking Crisis still a *cough* economy can get good for business types elected.
you have mail.
Good Morning All
Yeah, “let the chips fall where they may.”
The Democrats will continue to lose seat after seat too……
Rahm Emanuel is a fraud like Obama. Emanuel’s sucess at winning elections is also a big lie. As I said weeks ago here in post, the Democrats led by Clinton butt-boy, Terry McAuliffe had a dismal record at winning elections when he was the DNC Chair.
Howard Dean to date won elections as the DNC Chair. I shed no tears for the Obama White House and this present configuration of Democrats as well.
Rahm Emanuel is a disaster and with him there expect a more bold and arrogant policy but don’t think it’s gonna help the Democrats win elections…..
And that Rahm just “loves those liberals and progressives” whom are loyal and faithful voters in primaries and general elections….When you think of voting for a Democrat and you are a liberal just think of those very nice words spoken by Rahm Emanuel—he does not need ya and you still think you want to be wanting these Democrats?
FDR is rolling in his grave with these present day corporate sellout Democrats.
Sorry, SD, I usually respect your comments, but this is nauseating and unnecessary.
FB or verizon?
Ayup. Mitt’s a master of opportunistic stagecraft.
On the bright side, if Brown pulls out a win, Lieberman immediately becomes irrelevant. And can be dealt with … if there’s the will.
Maybe by putting the opposing view out there strongly the Lake wanted to show just how strong the push back would be think Judo.
I like Lawrence O’Donnel’s take on how a Brown win is the worst thing to happen to the Republican ‘vote for us to repeal this shit’ lifeline for 2010 and 2012.
The ‘Coakley repeal’ and loss of supermajority is messing all that up, suddenly we get back to no bill or the chance of a good bill. The Reps would have LOVED this turd of a bill go through as is.
FB :D
Yeah, it’s far easier as a civilian to look at the person giving a stupid order with a “Are you fucking kidding me?” expression.
Even 2nd Lts/Ensigns get upset at that look but in civilian world, they can’t send ya to the brig.
But, what about “bipartisanship”?
It’s the law of “Chutzpah of Size”.
If you owe the bank $200,000 and you go belly up, it’s your problem.
If you owe the bank $20 billion and you go belly up, it’s the banks problem.
If they didn’t watch it last night as it aired, maybe somebody (anybody) could pull this video up and show it to the Dems, yes all of them including Obama:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/
It is soooo true that it actually isn’t funny any more. And progressives of any type STILL supporting this party are either delusional or partisan trolls, as most of the “former” progressive sites have turned into. DKos, C&L, Huffpost, etc….just watch clips from last night. Nail, meet hammer.
Do we have a new form of commenting? Pocket trolling? Sorry, I couldn’t help myself. Hey, what’s a little nausiousness among friends.
Flippy’s cool.
Bipartisanship? That’s so Oh Noes. This is a new decade.
I think we need more positive posts. I think we need more good news the Lake is getting as stressed as kids in a divorce being forced to choose between Obama and Lefty ideas.
A Public Option would have gone a long way towards a win of the MA race for the Dems.
Lurkingmod @ 32, thank you. It appears to be happening quite a bit lately. Especially since the Gruber concerns were posted.
That’s the argument I always use against people who say that foreigners will stop lending to the U.S. There is a point at which the argument fails, however, and that’s when you need it most, in a total system meltdown. I hope I’m not alive to see that day.
Mornin’, Molly.
I have felt that way too for longer than a few months, but, then, sometimes I question myself. Morrison said people are strange when you’re a stranger. Sometimes I feel like a stranger.
Saw yer pic show up on the FB fan of the Lake yesterday.
Sounds like a diary.
Repealing that Law could win Obama friends even tea Bagger friends put the bankers in general population.
Really? I’ve never seen mine, but I’ve seen yours there. I think I need to take a new FB photo. One with my puppy instead of my grandpug.
Gosh, I hope that wasn’t my 15 minutes.
BTW, for anyone who’s worried that I’ve completely flipped. Pocket trolling came into my head from “sock puppet”. Not that I’m feeling defensive. *g*
Keep your eyes on the road
your hands up the wheel
I’m a bit to close to and wound up on this subject to write this one but hey anyone feel free.
love seeing those faces on the page !
most of my FB friends are firedogs – however, most of them use their ‘real names’ on FB so I have almost no idea which ‘commenter’ it is – would love to figure out a way to know who is who :D
Off to swim in the great capitalist cesspool.
US KIA Irak: 4,373
US KIA Afghanistan: 962
Iraki and Afghan casualties: estimates vary to over 1.5M
US MBS 2010: 2,232
Be good to yourselves, and all other living things.
Namaste
Anybody know when the Supremes are gonna issue their opinion repealing campaign finance reform? I thought it was supposed to be last week.
Click on their FB icon on their comment, if they show one.
been contemplating a series of ‘escapist diaries’ relief valves as it were :D
Obama/Rhama have painted themselves into a corner by trying to govern from the right, all in the name of “bipartisanship” of course. They have lost the opportunity to hold those accountable for criminality in the last administration. If they try now the media and the Republicans will scream “political witch hunt” and sour grapes. His greatest loss is the independents and the left of his own party who thought they were voting for a “fighter” and not a Democratic version of Neville Chamberlain. He has far fewer options today than he did on Jan. 20, 2009.
a lot of folks don’t link – look at ol ‘Things’ up there …
Will do, my friend. ‘Tis the only way I drive. Usually.
I love it when you come on and say. It don’t mean nothin’.
Roadhouse Blues
Morrison Hotel
Another billionaire media mogul. When does Rupert Murdoch throw his hat into the ring? His citizenship should be of little consequence because money can grease the wheels.
Hidey Ho, Girlfriend.
I didn’t do one this past Sunday, ’cause I just didn’t have the mojo.
But, yeah. Nothing wrong with Feel Good and Escapistism.
Here’s a title: Fly Me To The Moon.
I knew that. And, now, that song is rolling in my brain. Cool boogie shuffle.
Yeah, I know. I get messages on FB from pups but don’t know their Lake handle. What’s life without little mysteries? *g*
Bingo. As you conclude: “better late than never.”
We’ll see.
In a way, this coming right around the 1st anniversary of the Obama administration gives me an opportunity to give them a second chance to get it right.
Regardless of the outcome, they should see this experience as a wake up call. (“President Barack Obama plans a combative response if, as White House aides fear, Democrats lose Tuesday’s special Senate election in Massachusetts, close advisers say,” isn’t good enough.)
They needed to be combative – and not only in responding – from Jan 2009. They needed to be working to advance real reform from the beginning. They needed to be working toward breaking up the collusion between corporations and government from the beginning. They needed to work for the American people from the beginning.
Had they fought beginning, from day one in Jan 2009, they wouldn’t be facing this mess today.
If they go back to vacuous bs as usual after today – regardless of the outcome -, they’re going to go through this same thing in Nov, worrying about losing seats and power because they screwed up.
If they go back to vacuous bs as usual after today, I think we need to start thinking about a primary challenger to Obama.
I’m ready to give them a second chance.
That happens to me too. And, then when I write back and ask So, who are you, they don’t respond. I have found that one of the many benefits of being a Laker is the invitation for patience. Ha.
And, bowing to you dear friend. Have a good one.
Bluetoe2,
Great analysis!!!!!!
Thanks.
Fan mail from some flounder?
I got 409, and not the cleanser.
http://www.dailywav.com/program.php?Program=Bullwinkle
People losing there homes, people losing jobs, healthcare was suppose to help these people but forcing an already stressed and worried voter to buy healthcare just adds to the stress and I suspect will cut consumer spending further hurting consumer spending and placing more dollars into the crazy investment pile which is still unregulated.
I worry that the insurance companies will take all the extra cash they get invest it in banks a safe low return investment backed by the tax payers against losses because the banks are to big to fail.
And then the banks will seeking higher returns invest that cash in CDS. I wish the Tea Baggers would focus on this stuff rather than Secret Muslim born in Indonesia, Kenya, Hawaii ( I’m not sure they realize Hawaii is a state unlike say Panama).
Death Panels, Obama is going to take away our guns, lets blame the immigrants for unemployment, secret concentration camps for dissidents. Obama is a Chicago Boss cha! da Mayor gets what he wants passed into law no compromise. We are losing the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan because the Left opposed Bush double cha! the Dems gave Bush everything he asked for
The issues are we need good paying jobs to get the economy going we need help for people to keep their homes. Healthcare could help but not the bill thats going to pass now.
So what is Obama going to do about jobs and homes thats where the next battle is. I think the Lake could be a much nicer place if we got focused on a new battle we might win.
I want to read and debate plans to get people good paying jobs and save their homes. I wish healthcare was over, killed whatever we lost this one.
Ah ha. Thanks. I think I incorporated Natasha into my personality way back then. (And, didn’t Rene Russo do a great job?)
More facts the MSM never mention:(
anyone else having trouble with ‘refresh’ ? I’m getting a ‘do you really want to navigate away from this page ?’ message – could be my acme pc set up or could be some work going on behind the curtain
I think there is a very fine line between caring a lot and thinking too much.
I’ve said it before…you’re a good man, Things.
I’ve gotten that a few times lately. Who knows?
How do you link your facebook to your comment name? I think lots of folks don’t know maybe the Lake could email this to everyone when they first sign up? Besides I use my Lake name on Facebook you know who I am:)
I’ve seen you and your ‘grandpug’ pic several times now. I think what happens is we don’t get to see our own pics, we only get “you are a fan” :D
I want to be a Fan Dancer when I grow up.
Thanks Demi but I’m as guilty as anyone of making the Lake a more angry place.
If Coakley is beaten, and I am not convinved that will happen, but it does seem probable, the dominant narrative is not going to be that Obama was too corporate or DLCish, it is going to be just the opposite.
The narrative will be that he has governed too far to the left and mistakenly prioritized HCR over jobs.
link to FB on your FDL profile page – although that wasn’t working for a while either. and yes, I do know who you are, had the pleasure of shaking your hand at NN 08. but I have at least 100 friends I know are from here and I have no idea which firedog they are.
Never seen you that way. Besides, you usually have links and reasons and are open to “discussion”.
Oh you had to tell me that before my first cup of coffee .Thanks for he heads up .
Whats going on with Rupert he exiled a second son recently and kept Roger Ailes as head of Fox News no relative seems likely to be in position to take over when he dies…which I’m good with:)
who wouldn’t ?!?!
Go to your Lake profile page and add your FB url. You’ll see the text box for it.
That’s the one. Did I just find my new FB photo? Could keep the anger down here, huh?
bipartisanship is for when the dems actually have the possibility of doing what they promised. faux fighting is for when they can say they don’t. it’s very clever.
I remember:)
Looking at the false rethoric by Obama the last 2 days, I think we’re still flying on the bullshit radar.
Add to that the echo chamber of the MSM explaining this as ‘independents rejecting the liberal agenda’/ I have yet to hear anybody pose a fair opinion on what they think happened to the middle of the road dems now staying home or casting a protest vote. They know darn well, the MSM simply don’t want to play from that songbook as their puppeteering overlords wouldn’t like any of it, and think about the influence they’d lose.
ANd the fact that he ran as a progressive and walked away from his campaign promises completely which he has been being mercilessly beat up over will not be seen as having anything to do with it has nothing to do with it ?
The only people who have been saying he is far left are the tea party types and they have been saying it since his election and other totally bogus nonsense , while capitalizing on legitimate anger from the public.
By not stepping into the fray on this election we have allowed the right wing to frame the argument once again and missed a chance to co opt a likely loss of a totally symbolic seat .
welcome
if I may, my beef with threads like yesterday’s isn’t what they are saying but the manner in which they are saying it does not lend itself to dialogue. a lot of us have been around long enough to understand and be patient with newbies and their exhuberance at finding an oasis like FDL – been there, commented that. but there is no need to come in with guns a blazin’ and insulting everyone who disagrees with one’s pov
oh goodness, I am not talking about you personally
How does this statement from the article above jibe with what several of you have been saying about the lesson that will learned
“The response will not be to do incremental things and try to salvage a few seats in the fall,” a presidential adviser said. “The best political route also happens to be the boldest rhetorical route, which is to go out and fight and let the chips fall where they may. We can say, ‘At least we fought for these things, and the Republicans said no.’”
This says the opposite of what you are contending .It says that we will no longer play it safe by caving in even though the stakes are now much higher .
Gosharoo. Now my curiosity is piqued and I’d go back and check out yesterday’s BT, but, alas, I need to get ready for work. Food, clothes. They don’t like it when I show up with just feathers.
Look, I am telling you what the dominant narrative is going to be. I am not vouching for its accuracy.
lol. fyi – don’t want to be alarmist, but after oldnslow last read that thread and closed our browser – when I re opened it just a few minutes later, I got the most dire virus warning from my provider evah – not recommending you go in there – jes sayin’
This is what they haven’t been doing by not being as progressive as they promised and now they are saying they get it . We play hard ball and they move left , we tell them we vote democratic no matter what they do after the campaign is over they move right .
It’s a logical no brainer and the statement above is proof .
i don’t think the newbies can be blamed when the poster sets the standard.
The tea partier narrative perhaps but by now weighing in as progressives and supporting anyone who the democrats throw up we are only allowing the republicans to frame the argument .
Other than the extreme right and very noisy fringe no one has accused Obama of being too progressive . We should have been far more visible in all of this and the play it safe strategy from some progressives has been a big mistake .
The squeaky wheel gets the grease !
“The response will not be to do incremental things and try to salvage a few seats in the fall,” a presidential adviser said. “The best political route also happens to be the boldest rhetorical route, which is to go out and fight and let the chips fall where they may. We can say, ‘At least we fought for these things, and the Republicans said no.’
this is the narrative .
Show me anywhere other than among the fringe right where anyone has accused Obama of being a progressive ?
Oh, wow. I did get a virus found and quarantined yesterday. And, that rarely happens with my computer.
Did you watch Morning Joe this morning? It has already started.
Moreover, progressives have damn little media infrastructure for amplifying our squeak. As a result, what there is of it will be drowned out.
Morning, Selise.
You do have a t-shirt that say’s Devil’s Advocate don’t you?
Jon Stewart says the republicans have not had as great a majority as the democrats now enjoy in the Senate since 1923 , is that accurate ?
I had that happen as well ?
Yes.
In 1935, when there were only 96 Senators, Roosevelt had 71 Senators!
In that Congress Social Security was enacted.
nope. tattooed on my forehead. saves on the wardrobe expenses. *g*
good morning demi.
It will be spun however it is spun . The statement above shows that the administration is getting the message . Independents and progressives put the democrats in power not republican voters and they will not be re elected without their support .
Jane, Ariana, et al should have been making the rounds explaining why the progressive are so upset but they’re now the only ones not involved in the discussion .The spin meisters will not have any will have a field day and the tea party bunch will receive the attention.
Thats why the democrats are in so much trouble they have had a super majority and have only moved right anyway and the population and the base knows it and now so do they .
Har har. And, a sense of humor too. Good. We need all the smiles we can find.
I’m out the door to the gym. My advice is to take SD’s sign off and be kind to each other. And, thanks for all the fish.
Have you taken into consideration the likely reaction of Vichy Democrats?
But, I am still holding out some hope that reason prevails and the Dems in Massachusetts do the right thing.
I am also hoping they do the right thing and hand the democratic party the worst possible slaughter over the strongest and safest democratic seat imaginable.
A total rout of the democrats most visible and symbolic emblem .
Well, what do you suggest? Publicly and officially censoring Blue Texan, Jason Rosenbaum, et al? That might make everyone breath a little more calmly.
But honestly . . . do you see anything like that happening?
False herring ?
Another comedian. Har. No, really, I’m gone.
Yes, the tea baggers see him as some kind of crazy leftist. It just shows how far to the far right that crowd really is. We have NOTHING but our anger @ Obama in common. I had a teabagger type I know e-mail all there nonsense and responded with a Progressive view. 2 days later she wrote me back that my arguments made sense. The problem is that many of these people are having their anger channeled by Fox et al. and that they don’t see enough other framing or pts. of view to have a deeper understanding of the problem. Most of these folks IMO are politically naive individuals waking up angry and the 1st place they turn is to Fox and other rt. wing sources for understanding. Why that is is another ?
Against Conventional Wisdom
Losing the MA. senate seat to Republican deflates power of Joe,Mary, Max and Nelson.
Really want something done? Simple majority. The rest can wait.
Absolutely agreed . I believe they are also potential allies in the future .
“Bold rhetoric” After the fact. That’s the ticket!
I could find much more motivation to gut chickens without gloves on a volunteer basis than go down to an MA voting booth for national D’s or Coakley today.
Liberals, we are in serious trouble people. There is no good spin to this even if Coakley squeaks out a win. Liberals (I am one) need to face the fact that Obama blew health care and the bank bailout. We must retrench now! The health care bill sucks so badly at this point, all we are doing is trying to save face for Obama. Ditch it now and try to pass piece meal or a very simplified legislation that has popular support (import drugs, remove anti-monopoly for health care industry and reform Medicare administration). Second, Obama must fire Geithner. Paying the full price for the AIG bailout is indefensible, but yet he still tries to defend it. Obama must face up to his mistakes. Obama lost his idealistic agenda all on his own by choosing a pragmatic leadership style. If he’s going to be a pragmatist then now is the time to actually be a pragmatist and prepare the party for 2010 elections. Cleaning up Medicare from the significant fraud that is going on would do wonders to help Dems on future healthcare issues. Fraud prevention is an easy, bipartisan issue. Removing anti-trust protection on insurance companies would also allow future maneuvering for Dems. We really need to think 2, 4 and 6 years down the road at this point. We have already lost the current window of opportunity. The current healthcare bill is so poorly written this point Dems should not spend any more political capital on this bill. And make no mistake; there is A LOT more political costs that we will take if we ram this through. I would argue that these simple, popular reforms would do as much public good as the extensive pro-insurance spending the current bill contains.
But let me add that I don’t think GOP has positioned themselves well to capitalize on Dems mistakes in 2010 either. The GOP has moved even further to the right, with purity tests and the vocal party “leaders” spouting mostly nonsense. Look at the PartyID tracking at Pollster.com. Dems are losing people to Independents but the GOP is only gaining marginally from their pathetic lows. Yes, Dems must stop the bleeding by ditching the current health care bill and Geithner. But there is still time for Dems to get their Mo-Jo back and pass reasonable popular legislation (in particular job creation)
If HCR does not pass there goes all those PhARMA and big insurance campaign donations. No wonder the gloves will come off.
You would know if you had been keeping up.
Are we supposed to be thrilled silly when our team leaders sell us out?
Daily Kos is. Sample comment
We like the Senate HCR bill because it is good.
We don’t like Jane Hamsher because she is bad.
Repeat but change the little words so it will look like different writers.
Funny. Me too.
Excellent analysis.
Both the Democrats AND the Republicans are on the same sinking, stinking, stacked deck of state.
Today is the First Day of the Rest of Obama’s Presidency.
If he chooses.
It happens way too often with mine. I’ve come to expect it.
Putting on my optimist’s hat, I’ll say that history is(largely) against the malefactors of great wealth, and that what they are doing is fighting a rear guard action.
I mean, c’mon, at the end of the day capitalism won. Most people think that well-regulated capitalism augmented by a good social safety net in the context of a modern Democracy is the way to go.
Yes, even “liberals”.
But the flip side of that is that there simply isn’t any room for vast inequalities – the basic tenets of capitalism don’t support the idea. That doesn’t mean there can’t be billionaires, of course. But it does mean that people who are into “financial innovation” simply aren’t worth the paper their money is printed on. That’s the basic problem: not that capitalism doesn’t reward certain talents and traits, but that the people justifying their share of the pie with some version of it manifestly lack them.
The voterbomb for Brown that will be dropped on MA today would not have been possible without progressives. We have been slowly, gradually creeping towards the goals of the modern progressive agenda for years while the American people remained largely silent, complacent and apathetic. Progressives, the Democratically Congress and the Obama administration incorrectly viewed this inaction as tacit consent for their agenda and validation of their assumption that the country had made a left turn and that a ‘permanent’ Dem majority was at hand.
The overreach of zealous progressives and power hungry Dems has been exposed for what it is: a blatant attempt to control the lives and liberty of individuals through the expansion of big government. Ordinary citizens, less concerned with ideology will choose ‘self-preservation’ over the ‘common good.’ Taking money out of the pockets of hard-working American and handing it over to GM in order to save the unions or passing TARP funds under the table to favored firms Goldman Sachs and AIG is not lost on the intelligent, self-reliant producers in the electorate. Growing the national debt to provide payoffs to favored states and political constituencies and calling it ‘stimulus’ has done nothing to stem the tide of rising unemployment. Do you think that no one has noticed?
Further, the arrogant and corrupt process surrounding the cobbling together of the healthcare bill has turned the stomach of independents who actually believed Obama when he said that he would work to craft bi-partisan solutions to our most pressing problems. “We won” became the mantra of the administration as they strong-armed and extorted concessions and $$$ from industries and constituencies for ‘protection.’ Anyone who has watched the Godfather, or an episode of the Sopranos understands what this administration values most…the acquisition and preservation of power.
Thank you progessives, you have helped to awaken the ‘silent majority’ of American politics.
I dunno about that. Despite decades of relentless pounding by media conglomerates, most people are “liberals”.
Wasn’t a 50 vote majority more than enough in the Senate when the Rs were in? Seemed like they managed to ram through some unholy legislation with thier sqweeky majority.
How else can we show disapproval for our corporatist dems than not reelect them? Not exactly a level playing field in the good ‘ol USA.
the boldest rhetorical route”?????????
If there was ever a comment that would make front line base of the party worker bee say screw you, that was it.
In effect saying expect nothing to get done that moves us to the left – we just blame others – as if 51 vote budget recon is not open.
Hillary would not have approached this this way – and since the DNC chose Obama, this appears to be what the DNC wanted.
This is frokm people on the right that feel towards the republican party the way the majority of progressives feel about the deocrats . Just saw it on think progress and in light of the Massachusetts election think it deservs a look .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqNlQnvOJb8&feature=player_embedded#
How’s my spelling?
It is this type of self-delusion that will lead to the defeat of the ‘progressive agenda’.
Here is the link to national PartyID tracking on Pollster.com.
http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/party-id.php
Dems lost 5 points to Independents in the last year and 3 points in the last 2 months. PartyID is normally a static metric that normally only changes very slowly. This is a VERY OMINOUS NATIONAL POLL that demands Dems correct course. Granted the GOP has gained very little from their incompetent leadership, but the now huge Independent block can easily swing any election. What Brown in Mass. is showing is these Independents can and will vote GOP if they think the candidate is not totally incompetent (i.e. not a Sarah Palin type).
PLEASE WATCH THIS !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqNlQnvOJb8&feature=player_embedded#
We can prevail if we unite !
Today’s election is a referendum on Democrats’ failure to pass REAL HCR.
Earth to Indie.
Obama has not done anything for progressives.
Progressives do not support war for ever.
Progressives do not support this HCR bill.
The only thing the Mass election is going to prove is what progressives have been saying for days, do not take us for granted.
Progressives will only support real progressives. The day of the conserverdem is over. Coakley is not a real progressive.
If Coakley said she would fight to end the wars in Iraq, Afghan,
If Coakley said she would not vote for a HCR BILL without a Public Option and Drug Importation. etc. etc. Coakley would have won by a land slide.
The only way a Dem loses in Mass is if the Progressive Base of Mass stays home.
For example, the only way A dem wins in South Carolina is that the GOP base stays home.
Obama miscalculated the power of the left.
Progressives will not cry much about Coakley losing, because she is not a true progressive.
Obama and Rahm are enemies of the Progressive Movement.
Please tell progressives what Obama has done to make his Progressive base happy? Nothing.
Ben Nelson, Joe Lieberman, Olympia Snowe, should not be setting the agenda of the Dem party.
Progressive need to organize, and find real progressives, who will fight for real progressive change.
Indie, do you think progressives love the idea of helping Wall Street, and ignoring Main Street?
Indie the good news, is we progressive hope some of the ConserverDems join the GOP, because they are Republicans.
Scott Brown’s message is anti-establishment. The establishment being the one-party control the Dems have in MA and DC. They have spent too much, will tax too much, and are doing nothing effective to stave off unemployment and promote economic growth.
We are seeing voter ‘rage against the machine’. Any candidate, party that takes up the issue of the economy and jobs, promises to curb the runaway spending of Congress and the growth of the federal government will win elections.
Shirley You Jest.
Nikita was correct. He said the Communists would sell the Capitalists the rope to hang themselves. He was exactly right.
Only he thought it would be Communist USSR doing the deed. He was wrong because internally, the Soviet Union was as corrupt as the Capitalist empires.
Communist China now effectively owns the Capitalists, down to their underwear.
But I am no fan of Communism, just of any government protecting against the EXCESSES of Capitalism.
But this does not address my claim at all. You’re posting something about party self-identification. I’m talking about the issues that are used to nominally peg someone as “conservative” or “liberal”. And on those issues – everything from health care reform to school vouchers to punishing the banksters to being against spending money on unnecessary wars . . . the general population is overwhelmingly liberal. No matter how they self-identify.
Heck, I’m a moderate, as are most of the people I know, and yet we still come up “liberal”.
Today’s runoff election to decide who will be the junior senator of my state features more douchebags than Amsterdam’s red light district.
Of course not. But progressives convinced themselves that Obama was ‘one of them.’ They convinced themselves and Obama that indies who voted for Obama had signed on to the progressive agenda. It has been a colossal miscalculation and a huge betrayal of trust. Indies have bailed on Obama while progressives continue to hold out hope.
Progressives fail to see the merit, value and resonance of the arguments of independent ‘tea party’ protesters. Progressives and the Dem machine choose to debase and devalue their challenge to the ‘status quo’ which began with government expansion and growing deficits under Bush and continues at breakneck speed under the Dems and Obama.
Look no further than the rant by your hero Olberman and you will see how colossally deluded many dems and progressives are.
The pwoer of the left has yet to be demonstrated in any meaningful way. The House will soon be asked to pass the Senate bill as is, or to approve of seeing the bill stripped down in order to make it through the reconciliation process. How will it respond?
I hope progressives join with the majority of Americans and kill this bill. Root for Brown instead of Olberman.
i’m holding barack to one thing: he said he may make mistakes but he will learn from them! take back the message war, tell rahm, “don’t tell me what is politically possible, but find a way to make it happen!”
However, ‘liberal’ in the libertarian sense of the word. Libertarians have more in common with traditional conservatives ala Ronald Reagan than they do with the ‘progressive’ movement. Social issues are of little importance to voters when their economic freedom is threatened. “Live and let live” but get your hand out of my wallet!
I agree completely. And that’s why most people are “liberals”. That’s why they want the banksters hauled off in chains and put into stocks. That’s why they are indignant of the mockery of the current bill cynically labeled “health care reform” (and why overwhelming majorities want a public option if nothing else). That’s why they want money in their pockets and jobs now, rather than waiting on the “magic hand of the marketplace”.
And that’s why, conservative claims to the contrary, the average average taxpayer would much rather be making $60K a year and taxed 20% than $40K a year and taxed 5%: “liberalism”, most people seem to think rather pragmatically, seems to be the key to a better standard of living.
I’m quite willing to concede the possibility that the people are wrong of course; but at this point, after decades of the “conservative” program, they’re ready to try something else.
I don’t think this will happen.
Who voted and who didn’t will be reviewed.
Indie
In dark blue states like Mass and in South Carolina a dark red state, indies play no role.
If the Dem base comes out and votes in Mass, Brown loses big time.
Brown is a horrible candidate, Coakley is a conserverdem, so the Progressive Base does not care about either candidate.
Bush destroyed the power of indpendents, in one camp you have glenn beck and rush limbaugh and in the other camp you have Olberman, Ed, Rachel, etc.
If the Dem base shows up they win, if the GOP base shows up they win.
It is that simple.
Let’s hope the President realizes this.
Start by axing the ObamaRhama relationship.
Get rid of the banksters Summers and Geithner.
Pass health care with public option.
Obama and Dems move back to 60% approval in my opinion.
Yawn. Same ole same ole rhetoric.
You’re missing the obvious.
What’s funny is that I again agree with you – if you’re talking libertarians circa 1976(the year I first attended college). Up to that time, at least in my limited pre-internet experience, libertarians were those mythical beasties, the “classical liberal” or the “traditional conservative”. Back in the day, when libertarians talked about freedom, they were talking about the freedom to not get drafted by the government to fight pointless, treasury-draining wars overseas. They were talking about freedom from government surveillance, government phone tapping, etc(remember, this is 1976.) And again in my limited experience, those libertarians were quite intelligent and well-informed, and tended to have advanced degrees in politics, philosophy, history, etc.
By 1980 all that had changed. CATO was making it’s mark felt. The old guard had vanished, either graduating up into real jobs, or being less concerned with the possibilities of nefarious government interference in their lives. The New Boyz, otoh, weren’t that sophisticated, weren’t that knowledgeable, and sadly, not all that bright. Under the new rules, “personal freedom” had degenerated into “personal economic freedom” in exclusion of what many who left felt to be more fundamental liberties. They were, in fact, exactly what many claimed them to be – conservative Republicans who wanted to smoke dope and who moved early and often to shut down any dissenting discussion.
Sorry, but that’s what really went down.
You have a serious misunderstanding of the independent libertarian, which makes up the majority of the electorate.
To many independents there is little difference between big government and big business. Neither are ‘too big too fail.’ We were told that it was the end of the world as we know it if we did not pass TARP and we have watched Goldman Sachs and AIG reap the rewards of government largess. They enjoy favored, protected status from the government along with GM, Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac. Now we see that Obama, playing on the populist sentiment you describe now proposes a bank tax. Well, anyone with an elementary understanding of economics knows that this tax will be passed on to the consumers of the products and services the banks provide. So in essence, the taxpayer is hit twice, bailout first, bank tax later, and the federal goverment will NOT return this money to individuals, it will go to finance more spending!
The key to a better standard of living in incumbent on the individual NOT the government. Individual economic freedom and the growth of personal wealth is rooted in individual creativity and ambition. A fertile imagination and a burning desire to make make one’s dreams a reality results in hard work, wise spending, and prudent saving and investment. I would much prefer to have 15% more tax free, discretionary income to spend save or invest rather than see it controlled and squandered by the federal government.
LOL
This is what gets me het up. If people want to vote for Coakley, that’s their right. I won’t complain. Would that these same people extend to me and mine the same courtesy instead of telling us to “grow the fuck up”, as Blue Texan charmingly put it.
Oddly enough, yesterday and Friday, plenty of these same people felt there was lots to criticize about the online behaviour of those who just happened to disagree with them, but very little to say about the behaviour of those on their side, other than lame littler aperitifs along the lines of “well, they shouldn’t have said that, but we’re talking about you now.”
Well, if Brown does win today, hopefully the online community will acknowledge – even if Team Obama doesn’t – that the problem is not a few bad “leftist” apples spoiling the barrel, and that the dissaffection is widespread and broad-based. And they will stop with the pointless and divisive nasty remarks.
I disagree. To get a real pulse on today’s libertarian check out reason.com.
I don’t doubt that you have a certain characterization of the modern libertarian.
But as I made clear, I was talking about the libertarians of a third of a century ago[1]. Like Christianity, they were co-opted early in the game.
[1]Again, this was in my very limited pre-internet experience. The libertarians I am describing I knew face to face; it’s possible that on a national level and away from a college campus they were quite different.
The issue is not procedure. Of course it was. Because the Dems never voted in lockstep or filibustered everything.
The issue is how to get something through with the little leverage that we have on the Congress that we have. And that comes down to the self-professed “progressives” in Congress who are not using the leverage that they have. The event that proves that this works is what Bernie Sanders got for holding the Senate bill hostage – an expansion of community primary healthcare clinics — a key item for anywhere but for rural states especially. Good on policy; good on politics.
Now if the Democratic caucus in Congress actually gets a spine and some unity (including Holy Joe), then they can overcome Republican obstructionism. But it is peeling away Republicans that permits votes to be done with the numbers that Republicans used.
How do you punish corporatist Democrats. Well, the only ones you can punish yourself are the ones in your district. And it is best to punish them by electing a more progressive replacement. Speaking of what Republicans did; they rarely punished moderate Republicans by allowing Democrats to win. They rolled out the Club for Growth and financed a more conservative challenger.
Somalia, a libertarian heaven awaits you, and you should move there quickly.
I wrote a diary about this the other day: Coakley, HCR, and Republican Spin.
Because of either/or thinking, because the narrative has been that Obama’s agenda has been the liberal or progressive agenda, though it is not, progressives’ opposition to this bad joke on the American people has been largely left out in the cold.
We need to do a better job. Shift the terms of the debate.
I’m late to the party, but:
Oh noes!!! Boldest rhetorical response! Hell, yeah! That’ll scare the Lieberdems and Obama’s bipartisan partners absolutely spitless.
I sure didn’t see “liberal agenda” on any of MY ballots, or among my poll choices.