Democrats and progressives and anyone who doesn’t want crazy people running the country should get off their asses tomorrow and vote early and often for Coakley.

Amen.

Thank you BT

If Coakley loses, can we get rid of Geithner and get a progressive at Treasury? Can we get rid of the filibuster?

“the optics have been absolutely terrible”

Wrong. Perception is reality.

Obama needs to lose. That’s what make people evaluate, learn and change. Winning teaches nothing.

We still have 51 votes in the Senate. Obama & Reid need to use them, and follow Bush’s example. Shouldn’t be hard, they already followed Bush’s example nearly everywhere else.

Will Obama change? Or will his inner circle find ways to point the finger elsewhere? That’s going be be a real indicator for 2010.

This is just silly. All Obama has offered you is a bunch of sweet words. And you believed him?

Blue Texan: Coakley is about to lose Ted Kennedys seat to a right wing republican. OF COURSE obamas going to try to say something the base wants to hear, and maybe he should not have WAITED until 2 days before the election to deliver his little speach, which, really really falls way short of inspirational. Obamas many actions fail to give these words any force. Im sure he dosent want them to sting too much. Those corporate pigs are his freinds and benefactors after all.

“…the optics have been absolutely terrible.” Amen on steroids.

Not that I have any faith that Obama’s insight into the obvious will improve. He made this bed, but we have to sleep in it with the bedbugs, lice, fleas, and ticks, also known as Wall Street, AHIP, Big Pharma, and the Military-Industrial Complex. Pity. During most of the 8 years of Bush the Lesser I turned off the radio (no TV news for me) when I heard his voice. I now do the same with the current President. I thought Bush was in over his head, poor thing, bless his heart. But I don’t believe a word that comes out of Obama’s mouth. So much for “change we can believe in.”

Obama need to lose.

Oh, like Gore needed to lose?

Well hey, more food for corvids.

BTW, Blue Texan, I think you’ve just earned my “Croak of the Day” award.

Great summation of Obama’s problematic reign to date and of course that includes Prince Reid, Princess Pelosi and Cardinal Emanuel.

NO Obama DESERVES to lose. Gore didnt.

“Punishing” the Democratic Party by helping elect a Bush/Cheney Republican is the equivalent of cutting off your head to spite your nose hairs.

Absolutely.

Well said. If anyone thinks a Coakley loss tomorrow will bring the revolution, they are wrong. The only thing that will happen if she loses is that the establishment Democrats will circle the wagons around their big donors as best they can, while the donors wonder if they should resume funneling money to the GOP.

Proving the Democrats inept and depriving them of the capability to enact Obama’s legislative agenda accomplishes nothing. All we are left with is inept Democrats further exposed, and an empowered teaparty department within the GOP.

That won’t help America.

Call. GOTV. Vote.

Would you care to comment on anything specific in the post or are you just going to, troll-like, make accusations?

Please read the whole post. Especially the part about 51 votes in the senate.

And the learning part , directly after “Obama needs to lose”. Or can you only comprehend 4 words, and not the totality?

I believe at this point that competent well meaning liberal democrats are only going to get in the way.i dont belive coakley is really any of those things but that dosent matter. apparently nothing will “change” until we reach the flash point. and that isnt going to happen until it gets just a little hotter.

I didn’t expect Obama to successfully dismantle the industrial-military complex or the plutocracy over night. A lot of people who are pissed off at him, I think, were deeply naive about his ability, or any president’s, to do so.

That said, IMO he hasn’t confronted these institutions forcefully enough.

I accept your edit. You are correct.

My comment was based on Onama’s sucession of wins, Harvard Law School, IL Senate, US Senate, Presidency.

Winning teaches nothing. Losing teaches much.

In addition to cozying up to the wrong interests, Obama’s communications operation is beyond awful. He explains nothing–treating us like we are a bunch of dummies who can’t possibly understand the intricacies of health care or anything else. There is no narrative that helps people understand what he is trying to accomplish (and a lot of it is good stuff). My frustration is that he will continue to move farther to the right as his popularity drops and Democrats begin to lose elections. He has not used his mandate well, and he appears weak and indecisive. It’s called leadership, and we ain’t seeing it.

Im dissapointed that, not only has he NOT TRIED, to “dismantle” anything, overnight or over year, to the contrary he is just trying to get his glass under the spigot. I am not naive. Im sure, ive seen as many of these assholes come and go as you have, maybe more.

Yeah, sure. Let me, briefly, suggest a maxim for the evaluation of politicians and other members of the political class. JUDGE THEM BY WHAT THEY DO, NOT BY WHAT THEY SAY.

Don’t they have a saying in your state: “All hat and no cattle”?

So you got anything against that?

we shall see, maybe.

Wow, Orahma is starting to sound like bush. Or do what I say, not what I do. Who does he think he’s kidding. I do wonder what he thinks the reason for his tanking poll numbers are?

On a side note, I hope that all those folks in MA get out and vote. As much as I think the dems should be punished, and I do! We can’t go about it in this way. It will be a crapfest of epic proportions should Coakley lose.

There is no narrative that helps people understand what he is trying to accomplish (and a lot of it is good stuff).

This is a VERY good point. I don’t think people know what he wants to do.

And if the Administration doesn’t react in the way you hope? Suppose, instead, they decide an appropriate response is to become more “conservative?” Then, matters will be worse.

I stopped believing in teaching through punishment when I was a hatchling.

Croak!

We already have “cicling the wagons” and the “inability of the elected democratic majority to enact our agenda”.

If HCR is a sample, I’m reasoably sure that at this point I don’t want any more of Obama/Rahm’s agenda implemented.

I really don’t want them touching Social Security or Medicare.

I wonder if Ted Kennedy himself would be pleased with this HCR?

Was this what he had envisioned as the sum of his life’s work?

Or is his memory just so much “branding” ,like Coca Cola?

That is exactly what John Mitchel (Nixon’s AG) said in the ’70s.

is it a SECRET?

Firedoglake is going in the wrong direction.

Democrats and progressives and anyone who doesn’t want crazy people running the country should get off their asses tomorrow and vote early and often for Coakley.

Why are you going out of your way to explicitly support a candidate who will contribute to the problem? You’re so enthusiastic about it that you actually tell people to vote “often,” like they can vote more than once. Wow. That’s a ringing endorsement of Coakley!

Wrong way to go Firedoglake.

I’m disappointed in the Democrats for having chosen since Jan 2009 to throw away a great opportunity to act like Democrats and effect real change and put an end to corporate-government collusion.

And I regret the fact that, as a result of their unwillingness to deliver on real change, I cannot contribute to the DSCC to help Coakley – despite her flaws – defeat a neanderthal. But that’s the Democrats’ fault, as they have not earned my support.

I came to the conclusion that, in 2010, Kilgore’s idea of a left-right tactical Convergence and Uygur’s call to draw blood in order to force Obama to the left are both bad ways to go.

But what you’re doing now – actively and enthusiastically endorsing Coakley – is getting in bed with the problem that is ruining the Democratic Party.

I didn’t expect him to dismantle the military-industrial complex overnight, but I certainly didn’t expect him to aid and abet it, either. Or the medical-industrial complex. Or the financial-industrial complex.
And if now isn’t the right time to send the WH and the Senate a message that we don’t like their version HCR, can you tell me when the time will be right? ‘Cause I’d sure like to send them that message.
Oh, and I did “grow up.” Longer ago than I care to think about.

and its as true now as it was then

Yeah, Teddy, you are right as far as it goes. But you know, back when Ralph the Berserker used the excuse that “there is not a dime’s worth of difference between the two major parties”, I thought he was nuts. Now I’m not so sure he was wrong. Yeah, the Democrat is almost always the lesser of two evils, but what difference has this made at the core? What aside from the Lily Ledbetter Act has Obama actually, you know, done? And don’t tell me he has been handcuffed by Congressional politics. That is a tired, old excuse for the feckless. Better to go down in a street fight than to simply not fight. Obama chose the latter, in some misguided longing for a bipartisanship that hasn’t existed for over 30 years. Among other things.

I hope Coakley wins, but if she does not, the Dems will have to use a very different strategery.

The Rs have threatened to filibuster absolutely everything that has gone through the Senate. Maybe Reid will have to let them actually filibuster. He could start a program like Nightline. Remember how that started? It was “day one of the hostage crisis” then “day 2″ then “day 3″ until Reagan was installed and the “crisis” was “resolved.” Reid should start talking about how the Senate is held “hostage” to the narrow interests of the Repug rt. wing.

Please consider not calling well-known, thoughtful, and energetic progressives “trolls.”

People like me and cassiodorus come to Firedoglake to fight the shit you’re now inexplicably advocating.

Tough call. The Dems are better than the Repugs but not by much. Defeating Coakley might be positive. It costs the Dems their 60 votes to cut off a filibuster so they might switch tactics to take advantage of their majority in both houses (i.e. reconciliation). It might defeat a truly bad health care reform. I have to grow the fuck up. If I lived in Massachusetts I think I’d vote for the republican. Be a first for me.

There is that chance. There is that possibility, that they will move further right.

It would be consistant with Obama’s desire for bipartisanship. However, my perception is that Obama could move to the right of Atila-the-Hun, and Garned no republican votes.

As for teaching by punishment, I did not state that. I make a comment on the concept of acknowleging one’s mistakes is learning. It does require a level of matuirty and ego that permits one to acknowlege that one has made a mistake. It also requires a msitake.

While I respect you views I strongly disagree that “depriving them of the capability to enact Obama’s legislative agenda accomplishes nothing.” I don’t want Obama’s legislative agenda passed because it is no different then McCain’s agenda. I hope Coakley will lose for that reason. I don’t want THESE Democrats to be able to enact anything.

How will enabling Obama’s agenda help any of us? I just don’t get why Blue Texan tells me to “grow the fuck up.” I’m a 42 year old lifelong progressive Democrat with an ivy league degree in microbiology who has spent my adult life fighting to protect the constitution. Obama and the Dems are dismantling the constitution. Why are we supporting them just because they have a “D” next to their name?

Why the hatred thrown my way? I’m on your side. Please stop telling me to grow up, please stop telling me I’m too stupid to know what is going on. I know what is going on and I have a different opinion about how to accomplish our shared goal. If you can’t support your views without calling me a child or a moron then perhaps you need to reevaluate your position. I have no trouble supporting my views using the facts of the situation. Can you do the same?

I really don’t want them touching Social Security or Medicare.

But they can do that without a Senate supermajority. It’s only progressive legislation that needs it. Besides, the more we find out about Brown, the worse he looks. Do we really need another anti-choice, anti-gay, Birther Senator? Oh, he’ll probably be out in two years–I don’t see how Brown can last in Mass. But the cost to the country, the Democrats, and us progressives will be high.

A year ago, Bush’s colossal failures had so effectively damaged the Republicans that we were reading thing like [[http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/25/peggy-noonan-george-w-bush-destroyed-the-republican-party/]]

The sad truth is that Obama’s right wing policies are effectively destroying the Democratic party. If Progressives are willing to fight for policies that will A) do horrible damage to America in the long term, and B) discredit anyone who supports them, then they may manage, just barely, to save Obama and the Democrats in 2010 and maybe 2012. And then the Republicans will elect someone in 2016 who will ensure that nobody thinks Bush is the worst President in history, because Bush will look really, really good compared to what comes after Obama has broken the spine of the Democrats.

democrats further exposed? WTF are you talking about WHO FUCKING CARES if the god dam democrats “are further exposed” its of no consequence to the people. IN FACT the people would be better off now if those asshats had never won. we certainly wouldnt be looking at being extorted by the IRS to hand over money to the insurance industry, GREATLY STRENGTHENING a REAL enemy of the people.

This is a VERY good point. I don’t think people know what he wants to do.

His actions have demonstrated what he wants to do and NONE of it is good.

But they can do that without a Senate supermajority. It’s only progressive legislation that needs it.

I’d really like to know where in the Senate rules it says that “only progressive legislation” requires a supermajority.

If you really and honestly think that Obama’s agenda is no different than McCain’s would be, then I suggest you seek professional help.

McCain would have give us WORSE health reform (expansion of Health Savings Accounts), would have responded to Fort Hood by probably using it to attack Iran, would have given us no stimulus bill at all, and nominated another Scalia-Roberts-Alito type to the Supreme Court. Then he would have blasted Democrats every day for not giving him everything he wanted.

Dera BT: Since you have seen fit to tell us disappointed progressives to “grow the fuck up,” I think it is only fair to reply that you should [moderated]. Progressives have worked for more than a generation to bring about all sorts of reforms, and Obama was to be the vehicle to bring them about. We all knew that Obama was not a true progressive, but he was close enough for government work. Since before his election, he has been proved himself to be a grave travesty, morphing into a Bush lite on every issue important to progressives. The attitude has been that the left would be forced to support him or suffer at the hands of the right. As a consequence, he has felt comfortable in shafting the left to pass watered down, mediocre legislation. Health care has become a gift to the insurance companies, capturing millions in their clutches, while taxing the bejesus out of the middle class. Gitmo progress has been meaningless, particularly since he has argued to keep Bagram secret. I could go on and on, and I’m sure others far more eloquent than I will do so right here. The point is that continuing to support Obama will only serve to reinforce all that is loathsome to progressives. [moderated] and fuck that noise. Let him fail here in year one. Maybe, just maybe, he will start to use his vast powers to tilt left if he believes that to get anything done, he will need us. If that is not to be, I am prepared to live in a right wing country. I won’t be living in a country much different from the one I now live in, except that my principles will be intact. Once again, [moderated].

All I’ve seen from you is a hat store.
Got anything useful to contribute, or are you just here to make yourself feel superior?

I was agreeing with you, and pointing to a definition that supports your thesis.

Vote often your kidding you just proved that your bad for the will of the people.Have you ever heard of Honesty,Honor,Trust,Reverent,Trustworthy,Mentally Awake and Morally Stright,To do your Duty to God and Country.The Lack of this is the reason Obama and the Democrats have lost all the good will thay had the day Obama was Sworn in.Now his hands are dirty.His speach and action is not Trustworthy.Vote for Scott Brown.ONE VOTE ONE PERSON.

Thank you for your post BT.
No folks, we cannot afford to lose even one seat in either house of Congress.
Do you forget what it was like between 2000 and 2006? I haven’t and even if Ms. Coakley is not the “ideal” candidate many of you are seeking, she still has a D behind her name.
I never want to go back to having the R’s in charge of my life again and do not give me any crap about “we need to lose so we can win” That is just not going to happen if we start the slippery slide to Republicans being in control of our lives.
Sure the Dems and Obama have a lot to learn in fighting the good fight and winning, but it is just a year and my family really needs health care reform and this is a START.

from the same statement:

…” And he decided to park his truck on Wall Street”

that’s what the valets said anyway

The “vote early, vote often” bit is in reference to the ultra corrupt Chicago Mayor “Big” Bill Thompson many winters ago. It’s used at the Lake, and many other blogs, frequently at election time to bring a grin, nothing else. If you haven’t seen it used that way before, there’s nothing I can do about that.

I’m sure we can find common ground. What would in your eyes count as “useful”?

whos “we” ?

I’d really like to know where in the Senate rules it says that “only progressive legislation” requires a supermajority.

Oh, the Senate Rules don’t say it; the Senate Republicans do.

Good luck getting the rules changed with one less Democratic Senator.

Can you explain, in simple words, why it would be better to elect a wingnut like Brown rather than a centrist like Coakley?

Because everyone who’s screaming about how people shouldn’t vote for Coakley is failing to provide a reason for why we should vote for anyone else. And I don’t want any more GOP wingnuts in Congress, thankyouverymuch.

I think Obama should check into the international copyright on his campaign slogans. In Sunday’s LAT is an article about the run-off election in Ukrainia between Viktor Yanukovich and Yulia Tymoshenko. Included in the article was a photograph of Tymoshenko’s campaign posters dotting a highway in the nation’s captial.

They read: “Ukraina – peremoshe! ~~~ Ukraina – tze ti.” Ukrainia – Change! ~~~ Ukraina – Achieve the goal (or, answer the call, roughly).

Sounds like the Ukrainian’s are gonna fall for Russian sweet words. Suckers. . . (:>

I don’t see the big deal if Coakley loses. It certainly gives us some leverage. If she wins, the Dems will keep on shafting us. They need to feel pain. Right now, Democratic partisans are in an abusive relationship with Obama.

Sadly, I get the feeling that come 2012 we’ll be back in that vicious circle of lesser evilism. Gotta vote for Obama because the Republicans are much worse. When will this merry go round stop???? It’s been going on for 30 yrs. Pretty soon the Dems will be like Goldwater Republicans, if they aren’t already.

“Punishing” the Democratic Party by helping elect a Bush/Cheney Republican is the equivalent of cutting off your head to spite your nose hairs.

Grow the fuck up, please.

I’m all grown up and I want Coakley to lose. So what now? This is Obama’s fault, you perfectly illustrate that at the end of your post. Time to send a powerful message, but I’m just one person. The problem is the voters in MA just might feel the same way and vote a dumb republican into the Senate. I think its great… time to end this 60 vote rule and have perpetual gridlock until its fixed.

The thing you so conveniently ignore is that if McCain won, he would have to deal with a Democratic house and senate. There is no way he could have gotten any of his agenda passed and in all likelihood, the current Dems would have shown a hell of a lot more spine if McCain was trying to force every American to support the corrupt health care industry. But because it is a Dem making these outlandish decisions, we’re all supposed to get on board? Yeah, sounds like I’m the one who needs to seek help.

Please learn to use punctuation and a spellchecker.
Your comment is not understandable.

Progressives have worked for more than a generation to bring about all sorts of reforms, and Obama was to be the vehicle to bring them about.

Sorry, but you lost me right here. This is deeply naive at best.

Had it been a Republican president who received $20 million in campaign contributions from Big Medicine, and then unfathomably enriched those contributors by forcing millions of people to become their new customers at gunpoint, with billions in taxpayer subsidies as a cherry on the sundae, somehow I don’t think that Blue Texan, when faced with the question of whether this represented rank corruption on the part of said president, would say “maybe, maybe not”.

Or, to use his parlance: Grow the fuck up.

But after you’re perceived — fairly or unfairly — of cozying up to them, it’s very tough to play that game.

This is not simply a matter of perception, it’s a matter of fact, and the fact is that Obama is cozy with the corporations responsible for our anger.

Are Geithner and Summers in the pocket of Goldman? Was the health care bill a sellout to Aetna and Pfizer?

Yes, and yes. Clear enough for you? It’s clear enough for me.

If you insist on discussing this administration’s motivations as-if there is some mystery involved, why not go a step farther with your questions?

Is it possible that Obama has no choice in the matter?

Is it possible that Geithner and Summers are Obama’s handlers?

Maybe, maybe not. But the optics have been absolutely terrible.

Optics are not the problem, it’s the cold hard facts that are the problem.

they seem to not get that we “get” that democtrats are going to lose. I just dont see how thats my problem

Cass made a point, results count, words don’t.

If you don’t like that standard, please don’t attack the writer, attack the point or the argument.

Well, first, you might want to read before you open your mouth.
Then we might not decide immediately that you’re here as a troll, of which we have far too many lately.

I don’t put much blame on Obama. The blame squarely rests on Pelosi. She condoned a very closed process for health care reform. No open hearings on single payer. No involving the public in the process. Total back room deals with no real input from anyone (other than Stupak) allowed. And, even Stupak wouldn’t have been given any say if she didn’t absolutely have to.

THAT pissed the public off. Both sides of the fence. She followed the Gingrich example of going whole hog and listening to no one. It still ended up half hog. And, she and the Democrats are getting the same backlash.

Oh good job krugman. Go after punctuation, that always wins hearts and minds.

Time to send a powerful message…

It’s unclear that you can “send a message” to get a more progressive country by not voting or by voting Republican.

I don’t know how that works.

I’m not ignoring it. You’ve apparently forgotten that when Republicans want something, they will either go around Congress or beat them bloody until they comply.

He could have vetoed a stimulus bill, because Dems don’t have the votes to override.

He could have used the AUMF to go after Iran, with no need to go back to Congress for it. Plus the bleating from the Republican minority that “Democrats are weak on national security” if they tried to stop him.

At some point, we are all going to have to face the fact, that getting democrats elected dosent help either. People are, at present, still free to individually choose coke or pespsi, but the real effort should be in movement building.

wow, blogronicity – I swear on my children’s lives I was thinking of you (among many other longtime firedogs) last night – great to see you here !

we don’t agree on there being any real helpful reform in the HCR pkg, but we do agree on not giving any seat to a teabagger :D

Everyone breathes cynicism in and breathes it out, co-mingling the fumes of cynicism until there is a consensus called the real world, as in ‘’Welcome to the real world.” Just as entropy is only a relative background effect, it is also not all that there is to reality.
Who wakes up in the morning thinking, ‘’I’m a consumer,’’ unless he or she has a big problem? Then it is, ‘’Welcome to the real world.’’
In physics, they talk of entropy, possibly the closest analog to cynicism that occurs in human affairs. Entropy was formulated before Einstein’s revelations about time.
Even he, however, could not tell us what gravity is. Nor it seems can we learn what gravity is from the quanta physicists. But we do know that gravity tears apart matter in a black hole, a phenomenon that Einstein theorized. Cynicism is like gravity in human relations. It pulls apart our spirit into it is unrecognizable elemental elements. We can no longer access our optimism, our sober reflection, our plans for a better world.
Tea party protesters are protesting taxation, as if money were anything but one method of accounting. That is, they are angry although they cannot express it in any other way than complain about a contrived material. It is like an argument in a monopoly game and its only possible virtue is to amplify the low gain of politics..
Those who want to impose democracy are bound to fail. Because that is a cynical notion that will ultimately pull apart. Iraq was a very fast demonstration of the outcome of that experiment. Indeed, it points out the fault in conservative theorizing. It amounts to fiddling with expendable lives. It has always been thus.
Just like gravity is indistinguishable to believers and secularists, so is cynicism. It does not prevent surrender to that which is illogical or irrational. Snake oil sales men will always make a comfortable living defying credulity.
That is why conservatives are not the only ones in the way of progressive politics. The cynical faction of the Democratic Party, out of self-preservation, has always held down the far Left. They were assisted by the fact that it has been open season on the Left for the last 100 years. Now, the Right is contending with the tea party faction, not as dangerous as the John Birchers or the LaRouchers but virulent in its populism and stupidity. It is catchy but benign.
There are more social justice organizations, big and small than there are cities or houses of worship in The United States. There are more people working for social justice in some way or another than there are Republicans and Democrats. There are more people working for social justice than there are Progressives. All are potential progressive voters.
Progressives elected Obama and Obama has jilted Progressives in favor of the political center. He announced that the train was leaving but he did not have the balls to get on but he needs the movement and we have to organize despite him. He came out of the nowhere of politics. He tapped into something that was above politics and able to influence politics.
We must recognize that our progressive movement has to choose a leader from the existing corps of grassroots directors from father Dan in inner city Cleveland to the esteemed Howard Zinn. The Backbone campaign has a roster of cabinet selections. Is there a movement without a leader or a presidential campaign huffing about being hijacked?

The thing you so conveniently ignore is that if McCain won, he would have to deal with a Democratic house and senate. There is no way he could have gotten any of his agenda passed

Oh, you mean like Bush didn’t? Half the Senate Democrats, maybe more, are conservative.

Croak!

I’m not seeing you doing that either.

I don’t believe that electing a Republican senator in MA is going to do any good for anyone but the Republicans. (It certainly isn’t going to wake up Reid. And Rahm Emanuel will still believe that he’s Ghu’s gift to the Democratic Party in elections.)

This kind of crap is why I’m considering not coming by this place so often: it’s too busy fighting about purity.

I am not sure of your comment but I am talking about the need to have the Dems in control of both houses so WE can see some improvement in our lives after the Bush years. If you do not want to be included in the “we”, I respect your decision.

Obama is f++kin zooming us again.

The man is a liar, and he’s not going to change overnight. Not likely ever.

So the rational thing to do is to place ZERO trust in what EVER he SAYS.

Let his actions and appointments PROVE to us he HAS changed.

Otherwise, believing him is like willfully staying in an abusive relationship.

The people who are swayed by a speech are the big problem here. Speeches are like passing air from the input orifice.

Another problem here is that Democrats and progressives suffer from the same problem as Republicans: they think everyone thinks like they do. The problem is optics when you think that everyone thinks like you. If the optics were right, of course everyone would agree with me.

If only they understood, they’d all agree with me.

Even if everyone perfectly understood, they wouldn’t all agree.

What a stupid reponse to people who have a serious disagreement with the direction the democrats are heading. Telling people to gtfu bcz they dont want to continue supporting conservative democrats is remarkably arrogant and not very effective by the way. Makes me wonder if Blue Texan is Emanual Rahm. Only a dumb ass tells people to vote for a party that obviously does not want to have anything to do with you until it is time to save their asses! It is people like the blue texan that keep the dems in the mindset that they can shit on their base bcz we have no where to go. And then in the same breath you go over the grievances that people who are not voting for the dems have with this president! Make up your mind! i am no longer voting for dems just bcz they are running against democrats, where are all those conservative dems now when the party needs them? The dems shit on the progressives all year and now that they are about to lose they come demanding that we get our asses out there and keep them in office- PULEEZ, call the blue dogs that you love so much and ask them to get the vote out.

Yes, exactly the point. Obama is useless, as are most pols. They don’t act unless we make them act–and this doesn’t mean using the Dem Party as a vehicle to make him do things. US electoral politics is non-responsive. You’re better off building your own institutions separate from DC. You think Kennedy or Johnson wanted any part of Civil Rights? We’d still have Jim Crow if it weren’t for real people getting angry.

he didnt come out of “nowhere” he was nurtured and protected by the establishment left, like luke fucking skywalker. and first chance he got he defected to the emperor. its is the people he betrayed, who get him where he is. until we change the whole plan, they are going to go unrevenged, and will remain, right where they are. and getting martha moxley coakley kenedy the fucking 12th – elected, isnt going to help them one iota.

But, it has a high probablity of killing or improving Obama’s horseshit bill, which is more important than the loss of a senate seat. It’s a gift for progressives.

(You grow up, Blue Texan.)

Congrats, BlueTexan!

Your diary shows that WE ALREADY HAVE A CRAZY PERSON RUNNING THE COUNTRY!

Crazy like a fox in hen house? Maybe, but that just means he’s evil.

The terms ‘Democrat’ and ‘Republican’ mean absolutely nothing.

Wise people will support wise candidates regardless of party.

Fools will care more about branding & PR than actions.

Personally, I’d love to see MA give BHO a black eye.

However, I seriously doubt it’ll alter his course.

Sorry Spotts but I just don’t see how that is any worse than denying people habeas corpus, striping us of our 4th amendment protections, continuing the wars, backroom deals to protect big pharma, secret prison sites, forcing us to buy into private health care, restricting abortions, bailing out Wall street with no strings attached, failing to address the foreclosure issue. Doesn’t sound very Democratic to me. Perhaps you can point to those things in the Democratic platform for me.

Over the last 6 months I have read again and again how progressive representatives are not be taken seriously because they end up caving and voting the party line.

It is hard to criticise them when, we as voters do the same thing.
Obama has dismissed us with “what are they going to do? Vote Republican?”
As long as we vote the lesser of two evils, he will feel safe sacrificing the progressive agenda for centralist votes.

It is not cutting off your nose to spite your face.
It is short term pain, for long term gain.

And I am all fucking grown up.

I have already made my calls to my family back there… hopefully Coakley will win. What a bad taste it would be to have such a sleaze bag like Scottie boy in the Senate! It would be like a punch in the stomach to have a RePuke in Kennedy’s seat..

Lets get some definition clear

Anyone(D) does not mean they represent their district.
Anyone(R) does not mean they represent their district.

Senator or Congressperson, Mayor or Dog Catcher.

What counts is $. Money. If Sister Theresa was elected to congress she’d have to rais $3,000 to $10,000 per day to get relected, as I’ve seen no checks coming from God’s account to candidates.

Until we, the people, completly fund our repeesentatives, Congresspeople, Senators & Dog Catchers, we will be lied to to get the person elected, and then they will serve their paymasters, and NOT US.

The Democratic party doesn’t own me the way it apparently owns you, BT. If the Republicans put up a bad candidate, I would not vote for him/her. If the Democrats put up a bad candidate, I will not vote for them either. Stop trying to put off the Democratic party’s fuckups and failures on to us. Here’s a radical suggestion. Why don’t the Democrats actually run someone worth voting for? Yeah, right, too pie in the sky, like that would ever happen. If you want to waste your vote on lousy candidates that’s your prerogative, just don’t expect us to help support the same rotten structure you are.

Massachussets (or Massachusettes as Coakley spelled it) is beyond my control. I contribute for performance and not promises which is why Rep. Grayson got my money. DCCC and DSCC will have to wait until my mandated insurance premiums or health care benefits tax goes away.

Oh, Pelsoi is responsible for the Senate’s clusterfuck?

How so?

If Coakley wins, the Dems will sell us out, if she loses they will sell us out.

I do not want Scott Brown (or any other Republican) to win but the MA Senate race has little to do with HCR. The Dems have not been acting on behalf of the American people and no one should expect them to suddenly correct course after Tuesday.

Partisan hackery fuckery is no way to move the country away from what the Political class has in store for the public (neo-feudalism).

All of the sudden, with a Coakley loss, ‘reconciliation’ becomes a possibility and yet you don’t feel totally violated by your own party for trying their utmost to deliver your health as tribute to the Insurance Corps?

I’d suggest that the potential of reconciliation (medicare for all?, finally a foot in the door!) is worth the defeat of Coakley!

With 59 votes Democrats will finally be compelled to deal (instead of caving to) with the filibuster.

Bush didn’t have to deal with a Democratic house and senate. What’s your point. Croak.

obama is very hard to listen to, his deliveries drip with hypocrisy and contempt.

Z

fight the shit you’re now inexplicably advocating.

Heh, how thoughtful.

So we hand things back over to the whackjobs in the Republican Party?

That’s your grand solution?

New policy that we should all be pushing for in augmentation of the ‘Move Your Money’ campaign: have the federal government pass a law making government backed bonds pre-tax just like 401Ks. Why? The government will honor the rate of returns on these and there aren’t the fees associated with buying private company stocks and bonds typically offered through 401Ks. Not only that, but you can also make the claim most would prefer the federal government looking after retirement funds, not the too big to fail banks, after seeing the true colors of these institutions. Wouldn’t it be nice if people could truly believe that their money would not suffer what has happened to the 401Ks and private investments over the last year? It is also a very patriotic message, that we as Americans are supportive of this country over these fat cat bankers…

“Over the last 6 months I have read again and again how progressive representatives are not be taken seriously because they end up caving and voting the party line.

It is hard to criticise them when, we as voters do the same thing.”

Exactly! Thank you!

I wish it were so but the democrats we elect are corporatocraplicans.

Vote for Hitler because Stalin is worse?

The blame rests on Pelosi? Really? Are you serious?

That strikes me as blaming George Pickett and the failure of Pickett’s Charge for the Confederate defeat at Gettysburg, while forgetting what happened on Days 1 and 2 and that Pickett was subordinate to Longstreet and Lee…not that Obama had the statutory authority to command Pelosi to do anything. Presidential leadership might have been nice though.

November’s coming.

GOD DAMNIT!!! was loving this site, and loving Teddy’s post especially…this site is now a bit depressing:)

I keep seeing these ridiculous articles by the main writers here…I count Jane, Teddy (only in the comments section), that guy Rosen….something telling everybody they are infants if they don’t vote for horrific democrats…

The only good thing left about this site is that the people who write in the “comments” section still make good sense…

This site, for me, really displays the limits of the debate, always being kept within that “legitimate” zone between the “liberals” and super republicans…

Can we be honest? Democrats are against you if you are a working class person…FACT!

A simple suggestion: go read a basic book…I would have assumed that many here would have read Howard Zinn’s classic history book by now…it really doesn’t take much more than that to see through the democrats charade…no years of studying politics…no years of mastering the details of electoral politics, or studying philosophy…

simple: leave the democrats to fight for capitalism and power concentration (trust me, they don’t need your help).

Real workers need everybody’s help here, and I see people still fighting for their oppressors…shame

hang in there PJ, these things erupt here from time to time.

invoking “purity” is as if folks don’t have a legitimate beef however – I don’t agree with giving Brown the seat, but I understand the frustration – oldnslow and I were wondering yesterday about the enthusiasm levels of the MA LGBT Community for example

Blue Texan is free to have his own opinions, but there is no imperative for the rest of us to support bad candidates or the corrupt corporatized power structure they represent, instead of us.

That is such a stupid question that even trying to formulate a response makes blood shoot out my nose.

No, that’s your characterization of his position. Keep it straight.

Thanks cbl2, That is the beauty of this site. We can agree to disagree and still respect the opinion of others.
I have been lurking a lot, but this post by BT just caused me to post.
I am retired, and still work two jobs to keep my wife in the medicines she needs to maintain her health. I taught for 38 years, am subbing now at two different high schools but I would dig ditches to make sure she has the meds she needs. That damned “donut hole” costs me $700.00 a month out of pocket. I guess I am explaining so you know where I am coming from, I have always respected your opinion.

Wring hands, quick!

I don’t think the junk insurance Obama is going to force you to buy will cover that.

Oh, well.

I don’t contribute to the DSCC or DNC anymore, I pick progressive candidates through ActBlue, etc. But enabling Teabaggers to win isn’t going to lead to revolution anymore than it did in 2000 when ‘there wasn’t any difference between the two parties’. I think hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis and American soldiers might argue differently.

People who expected the Democratic Party and American politics to suddenly morph into a progressive Utopia in less than a year are fools. As disingenous as Obama may be, to disengage from the process at this point when there actually is a Democratic majority — which at least progressives have SOME leverage over — is WATB bullshit.

“corporatocraplicans”

I love it! Thanks for the chuckle fuckno. I think I’ll leave on a high note. Cheers to all. Be good to each other. We are on the same side.

Of course you cringed when you heard Obama trash big banks, insurers and drug companies. It is not simply problematic for this President, after continuing Bush’s gifts to these industries, to pose as a populist champion, it is impossible.

It’s an accurate characterization, because those are the two choices presented at the moment.

Vote for Coakley, or vote for Brown (either by actually voting for him or not voting at all, thus reducing the potential voting pool for Coakley).

Either/or. That’s the construct at the moment, and not voting for Coakley would be handing a seat over to the whackjobs.

Which “wise Republicans” can you see supporting? Just curious.

There’s a huge difference between a conservative government, which wants to have something to rule, and a radical-right government, that governs without care for the future. If the loss in 2000 didn’t teach our radicals the difference between conservatives and wingnuts, I don’t think anything will. Yes, I’m looking at you, Synoia: if you won’t learn, why do you think Obama will?

The “vote early, vote often” bit is in reference to the ultra corrupt Chicago Mayor “Big” Bill Thompson many winters ago. It’s used at the Lake, and many other blogs, frequently at election time to bring a grin, nothing else. If you haven’t seen it used that way before, there’s nothing I can do about that.

You’ve focused a throwaway line and blew off the substance of my argument. My point was that, to many of us who have been coming to Firedoglake for months or years, it makes no sense that BT, you and Jane Hamsher are now suddenly advocating with great enthusiasm the exact opposite of what you’ve been working so hard to achieve.

We’re not required to compromise, we are not participating in the deal. Being uncompromising at our level is “pressure from the left.”

We need “purity”. When you enter a negotiation you conceed very slowly. We are not in the negotiation.

Accepting majority rule is our compromise. Taking to armed revolt is the alternative.

And there’s the predictable “I disagree, so I’ll call you a name rather than actually engage” gambit.

Typical and juvenile.

I cannot believe that progressives supported Obama so that he could be a right of center flop. If you voted for him, I would ask you why. Could it have been that he was the lesser of two evils, or did you think that he would make required policy changes to trend this country to the left? If the former, then I would say that it is you who is naive.

he hasn’t confronted these industries enough?

Jeez, so, you didn;t expect him to dismantle the military-industrial complex?

Well, I expected him to leave it the same at best, but most likely make it worse…which he will be doing…one analysis was right, one analysis was lacking in historical perspective…

quote for you to remember: “fool me once….shame on…fool me once ya can’t get fooled again”

I agree, that quote is cringe inducing. There he goes again, with his populist rhetoric, pretending to be against the interests he serves.

The narrative that gets repeated a lot and once again here is that Obama is sincere in wanting to change things, but he cannot be expected to make changes “overnight” because of how entrenched the forces are arrayed against change. I subscribe to a different narrative, that Obama is by nature cautious, an incrementalist as I understand was his record in the Illinois Senate, and that the change he is for is not radical or fundamental, but around the edges tweeking kind of “change.” He’s clever though in that in his campaign he picked up on the zeitgeist and ran as a progressive.

We’re in an era where the predominant archetypal forces call for fundamental, radical change as in the 1960s, 1930s, and the 1790s. In these times, radical movements of all kinds, both left and right, gain strength. My concern is that a progressive popular movement on the left is being eclipsed by the right. So, it’s be interesting to see what happens in MA tomorrow.

After the last 3 days of posting here I have come to the conclusion that the articles that get onto the front page of FDL and the moderators that run the site are out of touch with the majority of posters here in a big way .

I can not help but feel disappointed .

Actions are needed: a cabinet deck-clearing. Wage war on Wall Street. A massive jobs program, green and otherwise.

Too much emphasis has been put on this race on both sides – for or against Coakley and it has seriously divided people here at FDL. In the LONG run, I don’t think it matters much. Obama will still be President, Rahm will still be there as will Geithner, etc. It might be gratifying for a day or two for those on either side but I don’t see it making an overall difference.

Are you refering to Jason Rosenbaum calling people “Naderites”?

They are trying not to end up as lightning rods in the broader Progressive community.

Cowardly, yes.

But we have to be above all that.

Well, what they argue is this: let the Republican win, then replace the Republican with someone better in the next election cycle. This is what Nathan Aschbacher is arguing in this diary, for better or worse.

Here’s a nickel. Buy yourself a clue.

I disliked Rosenbaum’s verbiage, but the underlying thesis has merit.

You just decided to insult me rather than engage. So I call it as I see it.

He was juvenile, and so are you.

Savvy?

I think your diary may be too late. For weeks here on FDL a frenzy has been building about how horrible Obama has been. The founder demonstrated this by making an alliance with Grover Norquist. Any thing Obama has done, according to the meme here, has been bad.

I fear we are going to do a 1980 and 2000 repeat. The purists are so righteous in their indignation – calling Obama a failure before even one year.

I don’t see any way in which dem losses add up to progressive gains. This is a practical issue, not an ideological one. The issue is “what methods have the best chance of bringing about more progressive US policies?”

Losing dem seats is NOT a way of doing that as far as I can see- on the contrary- that’s a way of getting gooper policies.

Yo Blue Texan

Politeness counts! And words matter.

I found it extremely offensive some weeks ago when folks over at Daily Kos used the term STFU to tell folks in so many words to stop criticizing Obama. And it still rankles.

Please don’t use the terminology or its analogues — like “grow the fuck up, please” — here with people who are supposed to be your friends and allies. You don’t know who most of us are, what fights we’ve been through, or what work we’ve done.

If you used these words to me in person, I would write you off as an extremely rude, ill-brought up, poorly cultured person, and stop listening to anything you had to say.

I won’t write you off in this case, because the impersonality of cyberspace has caused all of us at some point to express ourselves in ways we wouldn’t face to face.

But in any case, please remember that we are supposedly your friends and allies. You owe your friends and allies an assumption of good will, intelligence and rationality — even when they disagree, and even when they’re wrong-headed or flat out wrong.

An apology might be in order.

Amen, sister.

And the Dems will use reconciliation, if necessary, to pass a terrible bill. Passing a good bill was never in the cards.

Vote for Coakley, or vote for Brown (either by actually voting for him or not voting at all, thus reducing the potential voting pool for Coakley).

Either/or. That’s the construct at the moment, and not voting for Coakley would be handing a seat over to the whackjobs.

Jason already made this argument and it’s already been rejected. It’s a ridiculous and narrow-minded way of seeing one’s options as a voter.

I refuse to support Coakley. Democrats will have to worry about why so many Americans won’t contribute to her and why so many MA voters aren’t enthused to help her win.

To find at Firedoglake efforts to make progressives feel like they’re stupid or infantile for not supporting Coakley is baffling and very disappointing.

Just for fuck’s sake, let’s say a RABID WINGNUT CRAZY ‘takes over the country.’

Do you think people would sit by and let it happen, as they did during the last 8 years?

Or do you think they’d actually do something about it, say diret action?

If you don’t think that the populace would rise up and overthrow them, as should have been done with Bush/Cheney, aren’t you really saying that America is too stupid to save itself?

Maybe, maybe not. But the optics have been absolutely terrible.

Bingo.

So what’s your answer? that all sounds GREAT! Sign me up for your world! But what is your plan, what are you going to do, where are you going to start, what are you going to build on? Are you going to build up a new party or movement out of thin air?

There’s a lot of heated rhetoric and chest thumping around here, but I hear almost NO ONE offering up concrete alternatives to trying to overhaul the fucked-up system we have now — a daunting, frustrating long term job, but what is the alternative?

I’ve heard NONE of you passionate anti-corporate warriors offer up thoughts on how to acheive something like real Campaign finance reform, for example — all I hear is let the Teabaggers win and all the fed up Workers will revolt and we’ll all shout “I AM SPARTACUS” and…

…and WHAT? What do you suggest?

I really want to know.

Yes.

Next question, please.

We used “Vote early and often” as a cheerful reminder to vote (and take a colleague along) for the union in bargaining elections.

Might Coakley = reconciliation?

If so, – then why would ‘kill the bill’ proponents wish Coakley to win?

Assuming that these are good things, how are they to be accomplished?

Obama was elected with the full support of Wall Street. This is no secret. I mentioned it here countless times during the primary and was roundly blasted for bringing it up.

Obama is not going to get rid of the Wall Street types in the cabinet. That was what he owed Wall Street.

don’t be disappointed. it is a sea change in progress. it is exciting to watch.

the tired old ‘vote (D), no matter what’ spell is finally wearing off, the thick crust of ice on the river is cracking and making sounds, and soon things will be flowing again.

Bush didn’t have to deal with a Democratic house and senate. What’s your point?

The Democrats took Congress in 2006 and still didn’t stand up to Bush. Even before that time, the Senate Democrats could have stopped the war, could have prevented the establishment of a conservative majority on the Supreme Court. They had the votes. Half of them were conservatives, and they didn’t.

At this time a Democratic Congress is not a roadblock to a president with a conservative agenda.

Nonetheless, the Democrats are not wingnuts and have a liberal minority faction, and that makes a difference.

Croak!

So you think America is too stupid to save itself.

Well… why bother?

Let ‘em suffer.

Maybe they’ll wise up.

If not, you were wasting your time all along.

Because it’s relying on Reid and the others to take a risk after suffering a political loss.

Do you really see them doing that? Really?

So are you saying that the Senate rules only allow reconciliation or the “nuclear option” if the legislation is not progressive?

Help me put the pieces together here.

Apparently, turns out Gore also needed to lose. What was up with Lieberman as VP? From what we know now its just downright scary to think of Zionists being that close to the president, and what could have happened. Plus, in my opinion, he is way too willing to form a “World” police-force and taxing entity, albeit under the banner of what is it now, climate change?

Gore also needed to lose so that we could see, fully exposed, the takeover of our government by corrupt corporations and entities. This was simply more obvious with Bush, but Obama is continuing every single corrupt, disgusting, overbearing, illegal act of Bush. From wiretapping to more and more wars against the Muslims.

Nothing has changed and Gore would have candy-coated it and we never would have seen it all like we did with Bush and Cheney. But the same things would have happened, we know that now.

Texan, you are so last year. Its over Texas, we have Obama’s number. Your argument is whiplashed and you argue against yourself in a tortured way. We’ve begged Obama to stop the bank stealing, the insurance rackets, crooked politicians, the out-of-control military agenda, the spying and torture. He is DEAF.

This is the only thing we can do to change things. NO ONE should be voting for a Democrat this year, whether conservative or liberal. He has lied to us all and done it while smirking.

This the only way to send the message. Or JUST DONT VOTE. Its their fault for denying third party candidates and making us suffer under this ONE PARTY SYSTEM. Besides, Coakley is a total jerk. Even I can see that, not knowing her but observing her recently. She’s just as clueless as the rest of the Dems.

It is easy to see how Gore would have been a better president, because he didn’t win. But what if Obama didn’t win? This is what would have happened:

1. Instead of a weak stimulus, you would have gotten massive tax cuts and a spending freeze. That would have surely led to economic disaster.

2. The expansion of S-CHIP wouldn’t have passed, which means millions of uninsured children would have remained uninsured. I want you to tell those kids to their face why Obama should lose.

Start your own blog, then, and restrict it to those who unquestioningly agree with you. I’m sick of people who’ve been here for months castigating people who’ve been posting and running this place for YEARS because it’s not a complete circle jerk 24 hours a day.

It’s a DISCUSSION, not a cheerleading session. Or maybe I’m the one who’s out of touch.

Are you channelling FDR?

Here is an excerpt from his 1936 re-election campaign speech at Madison SquareGarden.

Sadly, I don’texpect our current Presedent to echo FDR’s sentiments.

We had to struggle with the old enemies of peace‹business and financial monopoly, speculation, reckless banking, class antagonism, sectionalism, war profiteering.

I should like to have it said of my first Administration that in it the forces of selfishness and of lust for power met their match. I should like to have it said of my second Administration that in it these forces met their master.

Fine. Don’t vote. Then don’t piss and moan when things don’t go your way.

I’m not expecting a more progressive country anytime soon actually. None of us are, if you hadn’t noticed. The corporate influence over the democratic party has been exposed via wall street welfare and the HCR debacle. If Coakley wants voters to vote for her, she needs to give them a reason, and not just take the democrat vote for granted… I think that’s a pretty good message to send.

“Let ‘em suffer.”

Sorry, I had relatives who did plenty of “suffering” in Katrina. I think you should try a little to see how it feels.

Exactly.

Imagine how the election would have gone last year after 8 years of Gore.

“You have to vote for Lieberman, or McCain might win!”

And the difference between the two is, what?

Hair stylists?

Also the Senate bill is being made better by negotiations with the House. If you let Coakley lose, all that progress would be lost and the Senate bill will pass as is. You would be in effect going backwards on healthcare if Coakley loses.

You all need to stop your ignorance and silliness.

If you don’t think that the populace would rise up and overthrow them, as should have been done with Bush/Cheney, aren’t you really saying that America is too stupid to save itself?

A rebellion would be just the excuse the authoritarians need to clamp down, not so?

I like the site, mainly because of you guys. The posters are wayyy smart! And much more left than the main dudes and dudettes. But I’m glad Jane runs a more democratic site than Kosman. I felt pushed out of the debate because I’m basically a socialist and Kosman hates socialists. I know there are people here who represent my views.

“Because it’s relying on Reid and the others to take a risk after suffering a political loss.”

What’s the risk?

Careful what you wish for on the Filibuster. It wasn’t so long ago that Republicans were in the majority. Speaking of Filibuster, when was the last time it was used? I honestly don’t remember. Invasion of Iraq, no. HCR, no. FISA, no. I’m old and I forget things, but I can’t think of a case in recent memory where one was actually carried out, not just threatened.

Seems like Senate holds, it only works when it protects the interests of business. It never stands in the way of making money.

Please do not mistake a local uprising for a civil war.

You can call it faeces between 2 slices of bread.

It’s still a shit sandwich you want us to eat. Actions have consequences. Obama’s and corpodem’s actions should have consquences, Ted would never have accepted a shit sandwich. A compromise? Absolutely, but what corpodems have been given us for a year now has been nothing but an insult to our intelligence.

This. Should. Have. Consequences.

MA is the perfect consequence. It’s 2 years of +1 republican nutcase, big deal.

Remember that the ‘supermajority’ was never considered even a remote possibillity, now all of a sudden it’s the end-all holy grail of governing? Really?

After years of complaining, we now know what the supermajority means: super powers for those 5-8 DINO corporatists and their WH and WS overlords. I am convinced that we are actually better off now WITHOUT the supermajority.

Tell me what GOOD having 60 votes for the upcoming period will gives us.

A good (not perfect, ‘good’ or ‘fair’) HC bill? Strike!

DODT? Strike!

DOMA? Strike!

Help for MS instead if WS? Strike!

Financial regulatory reform? Glass Steagall? Strike!

Gay rights / marriage? Strike!

Transparancy? Strike!

Change you can believe in? Strike!

We. Will. Make. That. Change.

Coakley can be our ‘Strike one’.
It is the consequence that progressives (and the American people) must serve the Dems.

We. Should. Grow. A. Pair.

At least once.

Jason is logically correct, but his logic doesn’t cover all cases. See, for instance, Nathan Aschbacher’s argument to the contrary.

Yeah, Bush’s handling of Katrina was unforgiveable, wasn’t it?

Must be why Obama invited him to help with Haiti.

lulz

The sentiment is right, teach them a lesson, hope that a Coakely loss leads to progressive movement. The problem I see with these postings on FDL is there is not a realistic force to argue the case to Obama that the loss means he should be more progressive. Who is the champion of that cause that you are counting on to have real influence? If you are relying on some post-election analysis by Obama and his advisors to reach that conclusion on their own… then a close race would accomplish the same thing.

What is clear is that a Coakely loss means a poor representative of the people is put into power – no ambiguity there.

of course I understand and I pray there is some relief in the Bill for families like yours

So are you saying that the Senate rules only allow reconciliation or the “nuclear option” if the legislation is not progressive?

No, I’m saying the Senate, dominated by a coalition of Republicans and conservative Democrats, will only use those options in the interests of conservative legislation.

Ravens know how to count votes.

Croak!

Your argument appears to be based on the idea that Dems have good intentions and have simply been ineffective at implementation.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

So if we don’t want to get raped, we should just lay back and enjoy it.

Right?

I’m a socialist and I support Obama and Coakley. Difference is I’m a Eugene Debbs socialist, not a petulant impractical child socialist like Nader.

I care about the poor and middle class and working folk, and getting real results for them. Not making stupid statements.

Troll: Someone who hasn’t grown up enough yet to agree with me. Is that about right?

YOU grow up.

You may believe you are a socialist. Personally, having lived in a socialist country, I’ve yet to meet one in the US. Leaning more lefward, is how I’d describe people in the US.

The problem is big business owns our government. Until that is addressed and acted on all the above is just talk. The leader we want and need will address the issue directly and lay out the plan to overcome the country’s true adversaries. rahmbama is part of the problem, thus insures nothing will be done. Guage all responses from rahmbama against that standard and evaluate them accordingly.

If Scott Brown can win in Massachusetts, a strong progressive candidate can win in Alabama or Mississippi or Georgia or Utah or Idaho. If they (1) call out the corruption, (2) tap into the anger, and (3) convince Tea Party Republicans to vote for them to “send a message to the establishment GOP”.

Now, what does that tell you about a progressive strategy for 2010?

(1) It’s not possible.
(2) We better start looking for candidates
(3) Progressives don’t have the chutzpah to do it

You see, the difference between the Tea Party folk and progressives right now is that Tea Party folks want to send a message to the GOP by whipping up on Democrats. And progressives want to send a message to the Obama administration by whipping up on Democrats.

Now, think very carefully. What’s wrong with this strategy?

I like that. And if there isn’t a huge flood of water when the ice cracks, a least there will be some clear, cool water seeping through.
And I have a question to the people who want Coakley to win tomorrow. If she does win (and I’ll bet she does), will you feel happy? Then, when she casts that sixtieth vote for HCR, will you still feel happy?

Yeah, Obama is sure taking care of the middle class & working folk, isn’t he?

Him & Geithner.

You’re a piss poor socialist if you agree with that.

But what if Obama didn’t win?

Oh, McCain would have started a war in Iran.

All die, very sad, much food for corvids.

Dude, you still don’t seem to get that there are other people in this country than you and that Presidents have to acknowledge that fact.

Do you really think Bush has anything at all to do with the Haiti response other than making a couple of incoherent pitches for help? No, of course not.

But it’s an easy way for you to sidestep acknowledging your callous, kneejerk bullshit, isn’t it?

“Let ‘em suffer”. That’s what you tell the vets with arms and legs and faces blown off at Walter Reed?

Lilly Ledbetter act: check

expansion of S-CHIP: Check

take restrictions off federal funding for stem cell research: check

Did Obama get everything he promised done in his first year? No. Did I expect him to? No. Did you naively expect him to? Apparently. Get real.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

You think that’s funny? You think that’s edgy?

That is fucking SICK, and it insults real rape victims.

“A poor representative of the people…”

Whoever wins in MA, that will be the result, becuse of the pressing need for campaign money.

To many of you I can only say, “Tusk, tusk.”

You don’t think Debbs would be on hustings railing against the neoliberal Obama admin? Plus, the dude ran on the Socialist ticket if I remember correctly, so he’d be what you call a spoiler.

“real rape victims”

Like the ones Obama sweeps under the rug with his “Look forward, not backward” mantra?

So if we don’t want to get raped, we should just lay back and enjoy it.

Live to see your rapist brought to justice.

I don’t agree with Geitner, but I care about making progress. We are not going backward with Obama. Obama is an improvement over Bush. If you really think Obama is just as bad or worse than Bush or McCain then you are seriously deluded.

@173

Well, they are gonna need a smaller tent ,or a much larger TEApee.

It’s hard for me to agree with you here. I’ve been posting at DailyKos.com for three years; you’re welcome to read and agree or disagree.

Tea Party want to whip up on Democrats? Charlie Crist (R), Govenor FL?

Too right, BT, on the whole she-bang.

VOTE. Democratic. Please.

The sentiment is right, teach them a lesson, hope that a Coakely loss leads to progressive movement.

“Hope”? I thought we were done with that. ;)

What’s the precedent for this idea? Has it worked before? I’m interested in hearing folks’ examples, because I agree with a lot of your post, but this is a sticking point for me. I get the punishment aspect, the ‘boycott’ aspect, but I don’t know if it really works.

Agreed. But do you see in just black and white or living color.

great argument! Good to know we will all be donating to Mr. Harold Ford, after all, he does have a “D” in front of his name.

Also, I am sure all democrats who voted for Lieberman in the past are extremely proud they supported him, because, afetr all, he was a democrat…

hey, if Donald Rumsfeld decided to run in the democratic primaries we would all have to be “rational” and vote for him becuase he is a democrat…

Also, I like cereal, so when democrat told me a turd was cereal, I went ahead and ate it…and even though it tasted like shit, I thought it tasted great. because a democrat had guaranteed em it tasted great…

fucking idiot

Way to miss the point.

You made a “joke”. It was sick and demeaning, and if you had made that “joke” in my presence I would have knocked your ass down.

I have had friends who were rape victims. I don’t find it one damned bit funny to use something like that as a political metaphor.

Start by alleging only childish, emotional motivations by others and follow it up with a childish, emotional analysis! Grow up yourself Blue Texan!

This is about the reality of changing the political calculus on the ground. A Coakley loss will improve the chance of progressive influences not being vetoed by any SINGLE reactionary or corporate senatorial lackey in search of the non-functional 60 vote “filibuster proof” majority. A solid majority can do more than an illusory super majority that can be hijacked by any single quisling.

Losing one seat will not cripple the Democratic governing majority in both houses. If the Orahma administration realizes the consequences of screwing the majority of the electorate that progressives, liberals and moderate independents represent, then he can course correct before the WHOLE country has to weigh in and straighten them out in 2010. THAT would really be a problem because that would involve losing the ability to govern and there would be no second chance to course correct.

Besides Orahma has proved beyond equivocation that party politics in America is a shell game. The Democrats will do nothing progressive that they are not COMPELLED to do and the ballot box is the “ultima ratio electorum”.

I’m for control (ie decision-making) of all industries by the workers, not by a vanguard party telling the workers what to do.

You may not agree with the thinking, BT, but there IS thinking! If “you” put Martha in, she’s in for life, so it would seem, but vote for the jackass and maybe “we” can put up a better choice in two years. I don’t see how we get change, let alone dollars, by continuing to elect party lap dogs.

There is bloody littlew difference between having 59 and 60 votes in the Senate, because the last half dozen or so come at to high a price, so to speak.

And for those of you who feel superior to the new folks, I’ve been lurking for over three years, so save it.

Hey, just ‘let ‘em suffer”. I thought that was your thing.

How can he keep a straigt face when he talks shit like this?

And what we also understood — I understood this the minute I was sworn into office — was that there were going to be some who stood on the sidelines, who were protectors of the big banks, and protectors of the big insurance companies, protectors of the big drug companies, who would say, you know what, we can take advantage of this crisis — because it’s going to be so bad, even though we helped initiate these policies, there’s going to be a sleight of hand here because we’re going to let Democrats take responsibility.

Does Obama the teleprompter reader have any contact with Obama the president? Does his speech writer ever read the newspapers?

The comparmentalization is so complete that it seems pathological.

What you say is likely to be true. But I do know one thing for sure, even more potently against romo2austin’s argument: Eugene Debs wouldn’t misspell his own name.

suddenly, the notion of bringing back the TRexinator sounds like a good idea . . .

It was a different time back then for working folk when they basically had no rights, and Debs took serious risks to effect change, like getting himself thrown in jail. Now all I see is these armchair generals not willing to go out there and take any serious risks to effect change.

Bernie Sanders is also a socialist, yet he supports Obama and Coakley because he cares about doing good for working folk.

You read it as a joke.

I’m deadly fucking serious.

For Obama to not hold Bush/Cheney and their good soldier/merc rapists accountable is just more evidence that he’s on THEIR side.

Not yours, as foolishly as you might cling to that delusion.

Tex,

Your post is an argument for not voting.

As in, send Oblahblah a message loud and clear about his fuckups. I’m betting he still doesn’t get it.

And when he’s looking at being a one-termer, then maybe he might have an inkling (but I wouldn’t bet on it).

And your point is? That we need to put the people who made those policies a step closer to power?

He’s got no answers. Just inconsistent flailing. First it’s ‘let teabaggers win so people will suffer and revolt’ then it’s ‘people are suffering and Obama’s an asshole!!!’

Make up your mind.

I think the sentiment is good… but only if you have the inside game worked out. Who is in the circle of power that makes the case, “Hey Mr. President, the progressives just punished you. You better make the change we can beleive in.” If you don’t have that worked out then you can only hope that it happens.

I remember reading a post here where the person said he/she was a socialist “but I always vote Democrat”. I presume this was another subscriber of the “least worse” school of voting. I thought, after reading that, “So how’s that working out for you?”.

“Grow the fuck up?” Hey, wake the fuck up! The Dems are as useless as the Repubs and just as dangerous. I voted for John Kerry because I couldn’t stand George Bush. I wish I’d voted for someone I actually believed in. So in 2008 I did. I voted for Ralph Nader. And if John McCain had won I wouldn’t have lost a wink of sleep over it.

Fuck those Democrats who are corporate sell outs. They will never get my support again. EVER!

I’m curious, I genuinely want somebody to tell me this.

If not voting for people like Martha Coakley will only force the Democrats to move to the right as a response, how on earth can you EVER get them to move left?

Now I’ve asked this question before and all I hear is ‘well certainly not by helping Republicans!’ But no real practical strategies about how to get elected officials to be more liberal or progressive in response to something. And yes, I’m familiar with primary challenges, but I want to know about real-time strategies that can be used on sitting officials.
What can EFFECTIVELY and REALISTICALLY be done to force elected officials to the left instead of always cowering to the right in fear?

I have to tell you, the lack of these practical strategies from a lot of Democratic voters dismays me. It’s almost as though liberalism or progressivism is ultimately pointless, because the only response officials will ever take under the current system is to reset further right than they previously were…

I said that about people who vote for their oppressors.

I consider both parties to be oppressors.

I don’t vote for my oppressors.

You apparently do.

Bully for you.

you sir, are not a socialist. Debbs denied being a soclialist until he did some reading in jail…

if you were a socialist you wouldn’t be supporting democrats in an electoral campaign…

take your false socialism and fuck off, because people are supposed to be honest here…

I am a socialist, and hearing what you said made me fucking laugh…I don;t know you, and so can’t say “what” you are, but you are no socialist…we have better arguments…:)

Thanks for delurking, yknoodled.

Welcome.

Pretty damn chilling, isn’t it?

( See my post@#148)

Coakley just released a last minute as featuring Obama. You can watch it here:
http://www.gotchamediablog.com/2010/01/obama-stars-in-new-martha-coakley-ad.html

People, please don’t toss rape refences around. It really is not cool. Just a request, ok?

Finally, something we agree on!

Plese don’t support politicians who help war criminals and their hired rapists get off scot free.

It really is not progressive.

Thanks.

“‘Punishing’ the Democratic Party by helping elect a Bush/Cheney Republican is the equivalent of cutting off your head to spite your nose hairs.”

Disrespecting your base by selling out health care reform to the corporations is also the “equivalent of cutting off your head to spite your nose hairs”…

When will the Dem leadership ever learn? How many elections will the Dems have to lose before they change course?

You don’t win elections by splitting the base and enraging independents…

Ha, the digital generation can never spell correctly, especially proper names. Thanks for noticing that! My bad…

You can donate to just the folks you want to and not the rest through ActBlue. That’s what I do now and fuck the DSCC and DNC.

But maybe it makes more sense to just let guys like Brown win…

I agree.

Take a good look at what this race is doing here at FDL – tearing it apart. Do you want to go on this way?
We have a community and strong ideals and it’s getting trashed. Name calling like I have never seen. Stop and think, please.

actually, you insult rape victims…good on you jack!

Spotts sounds like my grandma when she denounced the Nirvana song with the lyrics “rape me”—stupid

I want single payer, nationalize the commercial banking industry, nationalize utilities. I know what I am. I am someone who cares about making real change in the lives of people instead of making silly statements, just like Bernie Sanders. Progress can be slow at times, but that doesn’t mean you have to be a spoiled little child about it.

Hi everyone-
Welcome to all you new folks. This is a very cool place, so please be careful to leave it in as good a shape as you found it.
There are good arguments on both sides here, and if we don’t want this to simply degenerate into a Kos-style shouting match, can we please refrain from questioning each other’s motives? Everyone wants a better bill, so can we please stop with the “shut the fuck up”, “grow the fuck up”, “You’re a troll!”, ad nauseum. A substantive answer to a substantive question will do, along with accepting the fact that there are other valid positions besides your own.
Welcome to the Lake. Please don’t piss in it.

Seconded.

Like Hitler comparisons, rape analogies never contribute anything constructive to a discussion.

In an earlier time, under another name, I predicted that Obama would break the hearts of progressives and stamp on the pieces. And so he has. But to stop fighting, however it is rationalized, is surrender.

Doesn’t look so brave and grand put that way, does it?

Who was that lady in the Obama ad?

; )

then take your keyboard and just go away… We will miss you……….

NOT!!

Vote down the establishment and let the revolution begin. I just got my guillotine out of the shop so I’m ready for a little action.

Now this is getting on my nerves. His name is spelled “Debs.”

Thank you.

the I would come over and make a citizen’s arrst. because you don;t have the right to threaten or physically assault someone…

like you have the “say” cause you know a rape victim…please you [removed by moderator]!

my sister was raped twice, and I still agree with jack!

You said that about AMERICA in general. You can retrofit now, sure. But your stated strategy was to let people suffer in order to force…what?

What is your next step, and what are you doing to bring it about? You always stop before you get to that point.

(and I don’t vote for anyone I think would oppress me, but I am forced to deal with reality.)

And now for the costermongers interlude.

And how do I do that? By getting pissed when it’s mentioned in such a casual way like that?

Gee, I’m sorry that my right to call someone on their lack of sensitivity offends your sensitivity.

favre2rice

Just sayin’

Try spelling Kropotkin! It took me months.

What the fuck is wrong with you? I am talking about the Mass. election at this time.
I do not like Joe Lieberman
I do not like Harold Ford
I do not like Tim Geightner (sp)
I do not like a lot of people who have D’s in front of their names but I want some action on a health bill that is a START in making progress for the poor and middle class, AND I want an end to the “donut hole” Thank you, Mr Tom Delay.
Are all Dems good, hell no, but I am sure your Republicans have been looking out for our welfare over these last years haven’t they?
This is a site for civil discussion with differing opinions.

Many thanks.

Synois was wrong also…I know of no single example of a socialist country…there are NONE.

If there are, please do point them out:)
I would just love to take 2 minuted to point out how they are n ot socialist countries…joke.

I don’t man, but people trigger on things they’d rather set aside when they see the word. It never helps your point with them and you hurt them unnecessarily. Just think about it.

: )

“Punishing” the Democratic Party by helping elect a Bush/Cheney Republican is the equivalent of cutting off your head to spite your nose hairs.

Grow the fuck up, please.

Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time: Stupak!

Don’t go to bed with a (political, nonviolent) price on your head.

I agree with you completely. However Blue Texan set the ad hominem tone by telling his readers to STFU. Maybe he might register a plea for civility starting with an apology for derogating those who don’t rub shoulders with him in the veal pen.

In Obama’s call, he advised me that he needed Martha Coakley in the Senate, “because I’m fighting to curb the abuses of a health insurance industry that routinely denies care.” Let’s see, would that be the same insurance industry that Rahm was cutting inside deals with all spring and summer? The same insurance industry that spent tens of millions on TV spots backing Obama’s bill as sensible reform?

If voters are wondering which side this guy is on, he has given them good reason.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-kuttner/a-wake-up-call_b_426467.html

Jon Walker has a fresh cross-post available: If Coakley Loses, Reconciliation Must Be Revived

I would not eat them on a plane! I would not eat them on a train!

Oh, never mind.

In the fine thread story, one of the biggest money players is not mentioned,namely Big Tobacco.

Here is some update:
Tobacco’s Big 4 Negotiating with Justice Dept. to Avoid Supreme …‎ – 6 hours ago

Although the four big tobacco firms, which control 90% of US cigarette market, … effort as part of any out-of-court settlement reached with the government.
AllGov

Big Tobacco tries to avoid trip to Supreme Court – Salt Lake TribuneJan 16, 2010 … Washington » Tobacco industry lawyers met secretly with Solicitor General Elena Kagan in an effort to avoid the government s last-ditch …
http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_14209110 – Cached

Big Tobacco makes secret plea to avoid payout – Addictions- msnbc.comJan 16, 2010 … Big Tobacco makes secret plea to avoid payout. Industry wants to keep Supreme Court out of racketeering lawsuit …
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34894780/ns/health-addictions/ – Cached

Just so there’s absolutely no ambiguity, let me get something out of the way:

“Grown ups” don’t lecture others to “grow the fuck up”.

So the next time you wish to dumbassedly lecture me in that puerile tone, please take a moment to “fuck the fuck off” first.

Thanks,

egr [edited by moderator: this is a different person than our 'egregious' ]

Yes, I said that when I say I won’t support OBAMA, who invited WAR CRIMINAL BUSH to pretend to care about Haiti, I’m told that if I don’t support OBAMA because he won’t hold BUSH accountable, then people like Bush will be seen as forgiveable and might get back in power due to a misperception (caused by OBAMA) that they can be trusted.

My next step is to get out of Darwin’s way.

You mean recant, and the Council of Cardinals will be lenient?

I guess NO ONE IS READY FOR THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!!

Good advice, unlikely to be heeded.

The waterline has risen several feet during the time I’ve been here.

Time to climb out and rinse off before the stain sets in, lest I become a yellow dog too.

See ya later, RonD.

Sadly, I don’texpect our current Presedent to echo FDR’s sentiments.

It wouldn’t surprise me a bit. That man can say read anything with a straight face, even as he implements its opposite. IMHO, the guy is sick.

Bernie Sanders is not a socialist!

tell ya what everubody: I am rich. Now, saying so don’t make it so!

what’s to recommend fighting for the wrong results?

Gee, blue Texan

After, reading through these many angry comments,

It occurred to me that you are using the rhetoric of 2008.

But that rhetoric isn’t going over so well now that buttercup Obama has had a year to put his real wares on display.

Tip: skip the rally- rhetoric from here on out. Replace it with thetiric that describes our nation’s political reality- a reality that centrally includes a u.a. Senate run by corporate democrats.

If you must use old campaign rhetoric, I suggest you use Howard dean’s:

“i represent the democratic wing of the democratic party.”

Three cheers for democrats like dean!!!

F— a democratic party of corporate democratslegislators like Barack Obama.

I much prefer this kind of squabble to posts on how the war in Iran is going…

The fact that this nation is actually debating issues which are pertinent to the common person is progress in my book. I’m old, so I have the luxury of experience as a basis of comparison.

I’m not looking for a savior nor a father from anyone’s presidency. FDL has done yeoman’s work in putting and keeping the Progressive voice and ideas into the national discourse. I will not pin my hopes nor fears on a presidency which is barely a year into its existence.

I’ll be more open to doomsday discussions if global warming is ignored.

So, a substantive question that doesn’t involve Hitler, rape, or trolling:
It is widely agreed that a serious message needs to be sent to the Democratic Party about the danger of alienating their base, and at the same time, no one wants to see wingnuts take over. So-what does a shot across the bow look like? How do we send the message, without the backing of the threat to withhold support?

Yeah, you are right. The right wing loves to call the W. Europeans socialists–but they are social democrats. Regular people don’t own the big companies in France or Sweden. Sweden, fer Chrissakes is a huge transnational arms dealer. Hardly socialist!

I’d settle for social democracy in the US to start. I mean, we can’t even get that here! We don’t even have a mild welfare state. No real safety net. The US is so backward.

OK. so, i don’t know what else to tell ya…go read a history book, and maybe you could see that you have got yourself a 100% bonafide Piece O’ Shee-Ite argument, and people like you seem to be roadblocks to actual positive change for working peiple here in this country…go democrats…yeah! Go capitalism! yeah! more wars! yeah! I love the democrats! Yeah!

I agree with you, but please note that the author of the article first used the phrase. Maybe the lake is polluted to begin with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSe38dzJYkY&feature=related

fucking idiot

alright newcomers, that tears it.

this is Firedoglake – we do not name call or tell posters or other commenters to STFU.

one of the reasons so many of you have found promise in this site is that we are civil to one another. I could link some battle royale’s from the archives where it got blazin’ hot – but never reaching the level of nyeah! and eff you!

I truly welcome the new commenters, been around long enough to know several of you will go on to make meaningful contributions to the community – but this childish sh* needs to stop now

I guess you think you sound logical, but really, you should try living on Earth instead of the planet Vulcan.

I’d like to see Bush in the Electric Chair, but I know goddamn well that you can’t get there from here right now in this country. As unfair and horrible as it is, you just can’t, and pretending that you can is the kind of magical thinking that keeps leftist politics on the fringe and it keeps your passion an energy right where the corporate fascist whatever wants it: on a blog comment thread where there are no consequences and no responsibility to follow through.

I asked you before what you’re doing to further your goals or in service of what you so passionately think is ‘right’. So far all I’ve seen out of you is ‘don’t vote’ and ‘let ‘em suffer’.

What else you got?

Now I’ve asked this question before and all I hear is ‘well certainly not by helping Republicans!’ But no real practical strategies about how to get elected officials to be more liberal or progressive in response to something. And yes, I’m familiar with primary challenges, but I want to know about real-time strategies that can be used on sitting officials. What can EFFECTIVELY and REALISTICALLY be done to force elected officials to the left instead of always cowering to the right in fear?

A number of things are being tried:

- Accountability Now has been organizing primary challenges to corporatist incumbents on both right and left.
- Organizing a libertarian/progressive coalition
- Electoral reform
- Voter registration drives.

These things, and the many other possibilities that I am unaware of, take time, and meantime, progressives have to forestall the possibility of another radical-right government. Hence “hold your nose and vote.”

President elect Palin would like to thank you all for your support. If there is anything she can do to help….join her at demsalwaysfuckitup.com and help her blame Obama for everything, ignoring the en masse voting of the republicans and the political realities in Washington.
Good job.

While I some times enjoy a schizophrenic dialog as much as anyone this post has me baffled.

You say “Grow the fuck up, please.” in order to defend, if the word defend even applies in this case, pragmatically supporting Democrats. But then a few lines later you say “while telling the public their outrage is inappropriate — is problematic.” which one might assume means that expecting people to be pragmatic as opposed to outraged is not a reasonable expectation. So within a short and somewhat offensive post you manage to argue mostly with yourself while implying that you, and perhaps those that agree with you, are the keepers of the standards of adulthood. Fairly embarrassing set of statements.

I defended your previous post’s somewhat sloppily explained position that used Kerry’s ignorant generalization against Brown on the basis that you might have been trying to explain manufactured outrage. This time your argument and statements make no sense whatsoever. If you really are the keeper of the keys to adulthood I’ll settle for being immature.

As a sidebar, using profanity to attempt to make a point is rarely the mark of maturity that you may have been lead to believe that it is. Quite the opposite.

tell her fuck you. i didnt vote for her.

How do we send the message, without the backing of the threat to withhold support?

Primary challenges.

;) It’s getting to feel like that a bit around here, isn’t it?

You’re syaing Obama can’t even try? Is that because he’s part of the problem? Or that he’s too chickenshit?

My ‘goal’ is to support those I can in good conscience.

I cannot support Obama in good conscience.

If you want to cheer while he shits in your face, have at it.

2 Parties
1 Cup

No thanks. I’m on a fascist-feces-free diet.

BT routinely employs the “us and them” framing.

The Lake is not polluted but certainly this post and the ensuing discussion thread are beyond redemption.

I know, but let’s not make it any worse. Someone screwing up is no excuse to just abandon all the rules.

Your “good conscience” is severely warped. I suggest asking for your money back.

All you people telling each other to grow the f*ck up need to GROW THE F*CK UP!

It is amazing how many people argue for fighting the current system until you ask them for examples how they would proceed and they simply fall back upon not rocking the boat. Perhaps the fix is supposed to come when they say their prayers at night.

I’ll keep asking: what do you have besides your fucking outrage? Where are your ideas?

The five year old can hold his/her breath until he/she turns blue, but a more mature kid finds the way to get what he/she wants, even if it’s not easy.

Where are your ideas? Let’s hear those instead of your telling us how good it feels to stamp your little feet.

the same children telling me, a really old fuck, who has seen ” the dream” come and go, who is a vietnam era veteran, and who has seen the corporate takeover from start to now, from reagan to obama, to “grow the fuck up” is only mildly offensive. Im really more amused to the extent anything amuses me anymore.

well, good to see you get that, and a social democracy would be a better situation than what we have (and what may come)…however, I think we all need to understand that electoral politics will get us know where…indeed, the law and money are stand against our cause…

I am just hoping that I get to see a better time in the US…I am young, and I know many here are very old and wise…but, maybe being yound is what helps me to see through the bullshit that is the democratic party…I don’t know.

Are there others here who see that working with the democrats is a losing strategy? just wondering…

Unacceptable. cbl2 has helped build this site for years, and the accomplishments of this community are due to hers, and many others, long, hard work.
You owe cbl2 an apology.

I’d like to see you run a primary against a Ben Nelson. Let’s see how far you get.

Do we really need another anti-choice, anti-gay, Birther Senator? Oh, he’ll probably be out in two years–I don’t see how Brown can last in Mass. But the cost to the country, the Democrats, and us progressives will be high.

Certainly there will be a cost to the current corporatist Democratic party, but progressives and the country? The country and progressives have already and repeatedly been paying a high cost under Obama. Bottom line, both parties suck.

The orderly transition of power makes us different than places like Haiti.

And we’re all better for it.

“I’d settle for social democracy in the US to start”

Id settle for any democracy at this point.

LOL!

Why don’t you leave unless you can be reasonable and respectful !

fine…you may be right. But, as has been pointed out, you need to have a discussion with the author of this here post…or else I start thinking ad hominem is ok

You’d have better luck squeezing an apple and getting orange juice.

(Sorry, he found my berserk button and gave it a very nice and hearty push. I apologize for my coarseness.)

This fear mongering by the DLC is uncalled for and reminiscent of the RNC tactics…after all, they are very similar on Wall Street, corporations and maybe even on our civil liberties. I don’t want to see the RNC in control, but what’s the big scare here if Coakley loses? It will still be 59 senators to 41 and the admin may be forced to push for a better health bill. I’m not one to tell people who to vote for, but a lot are staying home because of the political climate. Hope this creates real “change.”

“Grow the fuck up”

And expect civil discourse?

Batshit crazy.

Please note the majority of lurkers posting their disgust. How strong an anti-establishment shit sandwhich eating crowd does one need? (Some FDL veal pen sadly included in the most vocal ‘voices of reason’ and faux outrage)

Coakley. Is. Strike. One.

Um, you know that the US backed the coup in Haiti, right?

Along with assassination attempts on Aristide.

Don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back, Yankee.

Kennedy held this seat for so long not just because he was a Kennedy (although that went a looooong way), but because he fought for the poor, and for the working class. Now, the working class voters in Massachusetts look at what they are being told to vote for, and think “Gee, what have I gotten for Obama?” And the answer is “nothing.” And many of them voted for him!

This isn’t so much a Progressive versus Centrist Dems issue. It’s a working class issue. Why does anyone presume to tell them how to vote, simply to advance a Democratic party that hasn’t looked out for them?

Back at you. Other than shouting that everyone should play follow the leader where are your ideas?

The politics represented by the nihilists here couldn’t elect a dog catcher in San Francisco.

Let them rant. Who cares?

The only reason the Tea Baggers are whipping up on democrats is because the democrats are in power. And I don’t buy your premise because the Tea Party was actualy just started by Republicans like Dick Armey, but the Tea Party canadites have spent plenty of time ripping on republicans for over spending.

We need young people like you! I’m a jaded, middle-aged guy. I used to vote straight Dem–but then Clinton’s neoliberal follies wised me up. It took me 20yrs. I see you’re way ahead of me in that respect. Gen Xers (my generation) are notoriously right wing and conformist. The 20 something kids are a lot more enlightened.

BTW, there are lots of people who think supporting the Dems is a losing strategy. Check out my man Dennis Perrin.

“It is widely agreed that a serious message needs to be sent to the Democratic Party about the danger of alienating their base, and at the same time, no one wants to see wingnuts take over. So-what does a shot across the bow look like? How do we send the message, without the backing of the threat to withhold support?”

A Coakley loss is perfect, it’s cheap compared to what it would cost to send as effective a message in November, and it will likely kill or improve OBAMA’S insurance company bill. It’s a gift.

OK Ok I will be good Daddy…
or is that Mommy??

I didn’t go to Vietnam because of my eyesight but yeah the whole I’m more mature than you argument would work better coming from someone in their 80s that has a calm and reasoned approach.

Bullshit. Mcain would have given us NO hcr, AND AT THIS POINT,that would be preferable.

Then they focus on the plank in their eye before worrying about the speck in mine.

Certainly there will be a cost to the current corporatist Democratic party, but progressives and the country? The country and progressives have already and repeatedly been paying a high cost under Obama. Bottom line, both parties suck.

Sure, only one sucks worse.

And, yes, more radical-right governance can cost the country by, for instance, involving us in another war, or blocking any changes to the health care plan. If progressives are seen as enabling the radical right, there will be a high cost to progressives as well.

It can get worse. Let’s not make it worse.

I’m sure the orderly transition of power makes the US better than practically all of the places in which the US has:

1) installed proxy governments
2) invaded with troops
3) destabilized by funding insurgencies

huh?

I’m tempted to agree with you, while accepting that I may be wrong. I’d really like to hear a civilly-expressed counter-opinion.

What are you talking about?

If you’re implying that I don’t think Obama can do anything about Bush’s war crimes, you’re pole-vaulting to conclusions. I don’t think any such thing. t I don’t know the best way he can do that politically right now — not morally, but POLITICALLY — seeing as how the DOJ is still rife with Bush appointees and the electorate is hotly divided.

I do think Obama’s squandered a golden moment where he could’ve capitalized on a groundswell of support for actual change. I think he’s too beholden to Corporate interests and I think the moment actually outpaced what he considered ‘possible’, and he blinked. Or never intended to hold to his promises, I’m not sure. I’m not a mind reader. But the financial ‘crisis’, real or not, threw a monkey wrench into the momentum for change and altered the dynamic.

Sorry, but we do have an exisiting political system that is baroque, corrupt and resistant to change. A microwave burrito strategy (“Come on!!! You’ve been in there for 40 seconds, I’M FUCKING HUNGRY!!!”) ain’t gonna work.

and so LOL!

Corporate-Dems or Corporate-REpubs? A choice, not an echo? (Way back in pre-internet history in 1964, what Senator Barry Goldwater said that he offered the voters, as an alternative to Pres. Lyndon Baines Johnson).

We have had a corporate-ocracy since 1980, for thirty years, with the election of union-buster and budget-deficiter Reagan. Now, thirty years later we get Obama, who campaigned for “change,” but gives us corporatism at home and imperialism abroad…

OK. I’m out of this one. It’s making me heartsick and I have chores to do.

Blue Texan, what do we have to offer the people who object that this administration has sold them out?

Yes, because obviously you’ve been the voice of reason.

So you think he’ll START on it when?

3 years from now?

lulz

Nothing. youve got nada. and should really really consider why you would even do such a thing to us.

I guess I was merging your response with the “grow the fuck up.” proposition. Sorry for the mixup.

Look, support Bush’s buddy all you want.

I won’t.

Don’t like it?

Tough shit.

thank you for your response – I’m chalking a lot of this up to movement “growing pains”. and as stated above, I understand the frustrations presently on display here :D

Has Scott Brown ripped on Republicans? Really?

I think the real problem here is that the question is wrong…why don’t you go join a political group you can believe in, and then start organizing…we do this in San Diego, and we never j=have to hold our noses and vote!

Kennedy was first and foremost good theater.

Where did I shout follow the leader? What are you talking about?

Straw man.

I already suggested working for real campaign finance reform and for targeted donations to progressive candidates. But is that too BORING for you? Should I jump up and down and cry about war criminals and corporate sellouts more?

Maybe I’ve done enough of that and am more interested in real ways to effect change. But you don’t seem to be interested in discussing those ideas when I bring them up, or you’d have responded to them earlier in the thread, wouldn’t you?

Why don’t you just reply to those you’re in lockstep with in future. You can just copy and paste each others’ rants; it’s quicker.

lol. and it’s mommy

very difficult for any of the long timers here to preach or be dictatorial with other firedogs – but a clear line was crossed

No one has any problem with your position. It’s your extremely disagreeable way of addressing other people, who are as deserving of respect as you are.

Charlie Crist (R) perceived to be Democrat (the Obama hug).

not true…at least in the places where there are violent transitions there is a small chance that the good people end up in power (at least until the CIA fements a coup).

We have nice transitions here because the rulers have an amazing grip on power and the people watch the NFL and spend the weekend waxing their status symbols…

The Democrats had a mandate to effect change with the 2008 presidential election, for example, with health care reform, which is a great example of them not being willing to take risks even when they win. Instead of doing what’s good for the country, they chose to work for preserving their majority and political power by catering to the health insurance companies and big pharma.

Actually I am wavering between the Greens and The Working Families Party. I’ve voted Democrat most of the time but am registered independent. The advantage of the Greens is that they sometimes put up their own candidates. No matter which group I join I will still join in discussions around Democratic positions because the aren’t the Republicans and I would like to seem them help the middle-class and the poor.

You would know the answer to your question if you had been here long enough. cbl2 is a class act!

BY ALL MEANS, VOTE FOR THIS:

Martha Coakley Still Doesn’t Get It On The Patriot Act
Posted on December 1 2009 by Congress Watcher

In the special election for U.S. Senate in Massachusetts, the Patriot Act has become issue number one this week. A statement from candidate Martha Coakley in support of the Patriot Act’s programs of government spying against American citizens was uncovered at the beginning of the week. Coakley’s campaign still has not released a statement on its web site to explain her statements defending the Patriot Act. Her press office is trying to pretend the growing scandal of Coakley’s support for Bush’s spying programs just doesn’t exist.

In a debate tonight, however, Coakley could not avoid the subject. When confronted by rival Michael Capuano, Coakley put her foot in her mouth again. “The Patriot Act is about keeping people safe without violating civil rights,” Coakley said.

read more

You’re missing the point, as usual.

Comparing the your opponent’s view of political process to rape is demeaning, wrong, and sickening. It doesn’t elevate the discourse, offends those who are your natural allies, and makes you sound like a juvenile who learned their first dirty word.

That’s my problem with you.

And keep in mind, I’m being nice. There are many other progressive sites where you would have been busted like a cheap pinata for making that same comment.

If they are more offended by my words on their monitor than they are by Obaam’s buddying up with financial terrorists and war criminals…

they need to check their priorities, don’t they?

nahant is a long-time Lake denizen as well. Nice to meet you, AppleCanyon2.

ty for the words and the link, sir.

“And keep in mind, I’m being nice. There are many other progressive sites where you would have been busted like a cheap pinata for making that same comment.”

Curious as to what progressive sites you have in mind ? Would you list a few?

I think Bush raped this country.

I think Bush raped Afghanistan.

I think Bush raped Iraq.

Obama said regarding those rapes:

“Look forward, not backward.”

I won’t support people who excuse serial rapists.

You apparently don’t have significant qualms doing so.

they need to check their priorities, don’t they?

Maybe they do. And that is far more likely to occur if you will refrain from swearing at and verbally abusing everyone with whom you disagree.

true cbl2. Blue Texan needs to understand that he sets the tone. By telling MA Democrats who are displeased with their Democratic candidate to “grow the fuck up” he opens the door and steps through the threshold for disrespectful engagement. I like Blue Texan and I like FDL but we need to learn how to allow each other dissenting opinions without piling on the disrespect.

Oh i dont really mind. I am angry, and i want to be angry, we should all be angry. I know it is the first instinct when you realize youve been cheated to try and hold on to anything, but i learned that only puts off the inevitable starting over. which must be done. the best thing we can do is take an honest look at what went wrong, and what if anything can we do better. for some that means voting for establishment “liberals”. fine. im not trying to talk anyone out of doing what your conscience demands. but maybe, we have an pooprtunity here, to really move the whole dynamic far to the left. what i dont belive, is that is forever not possible. people will suffer more if republicans are elected, buy only a bit more (and in some ways we will suffer less, as in killing HCR) BUT at some point, the people will have to reach a flash point, that point at which a substance is so heated up it begins to burn. the american people dont have a low flash point, we have a really expensive cooling system in place to keep that from happening. THATS what has to be destroyed before any
“change” happens, and the DEMS are the biggest investors in the social blow off valve concept

Shakesville for one would love to meet you. Just remember to wear natural fabrics. Blood is so hard to get out of synthetics.

You mean saying things like this?

Grow the fuck up, please

Who said that again?

lulz

Are you targeting me or someone that you think is me? I don’t remember saying anything overly negative along the lines you mentioned, but I sometimes get “het up” and write before I think. If these things were in prior threads I honestly don’t reply a lot of time, even when I agree with people over concern that I, or anyone else, might appear to be trying to contain the conversation. What you just described does not sound overly unreasonable so I guess I need to pay more attention.

Thank God for a cogent post, Blue Texan.

The type of replies seen here is why I don’t participate on FDL anymore. People here don’t know the difference between a primary and a general election, and suddenly advocate for group political suicide in order to have their way proven correct but never enacted in reality. And yes, I do believe in the lesser of two evils. We have one party that continually destroys America and one that is at least trying to halt that progression and occasionally does something to reverse the trend. I’m sorry it doesn’t perform better, I really am, but letting the barbarians back in to just lock the door behind them as they take power is not a viable strategy.

Save this energy for the coming primary battles, because that is where it belongs. And, hopefully this won’t make some throw up upon reading it, I understand, believe me, but get involved in the party at a grassroots level. It is often a lot easier to take over than some might think.

Now set the flamethrowers on obliterate and let me have it, but I have nothing to say in reply.

And I think that the more you use the word, the more you cheapen the meaning of that word.

Sorry, but words do have power. And you are blatantly misusing that power in order to shock people.

That’s wrong.

And these political realities are? Possibly that just about anyone can be bought for the right price? That’s a tough one to overcome, hence the disappointment will continue.

Unless you’ve been raped, I don’t think you’re in a position to judge.

And even if you have been, I agree to disagree.

Yeah but is Brown different on this issue? The only folks more in favor of the Patriot Act than the Blue Dogs are the people that rammed it through. Pretty disappointing that she said that.

And, yes, more radical-right governance can cost the country by, for instance, involving us in another war,

You mean in addition to Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Yemen? Democrats as well as Republicans historically involve us in war. Even progressive Democrats vote to keep the spigot of funds open for the MIC. lol

if you dont ” participate in FDL anymore” what are you doing here cheeleading for the wal st enabler crowd? shouldnt you be over at TPM or something?

Jesus Christ, mods please rid us of this miserable excuse???

I’m not defending BlueTexan. He shouldn’t have said it. And you should seriously not have said a whole bunch of things, starting with insulting cbl2, who deserves nothing but respect.

You know the old phrase “You capture more flies with honey than with vinegar?”

Your comments = vinegar.

I’m sure you believe in the righteousness of your cause but insulting those who might actually be inclined to listen because they don’t immediately jump to your position is not conducive to gaining a following.

not the point. SOME WHERE SOMEFUCKING HOW. they have to not be rewarded for criminal behavior. will you go right on rewarding them?

Do you want them to ban Nirvana, too?

no one “deserves” respect, if everyone dosent “deserve” respect.

“Agree to disagree”

In other words “I’ll say whatever I like, to whomever I like, even if it’s insulting and wrong.”

Sorry, no. I don’t agree to disagree.

Again, who said this?

Grow the fuck up

Yet I don’t see you chastising that person.

Hypocrite much?

Oh, well.

Keep your panties twisted.

See if I care.

no hes(shes?) a “progressive”.

Ok, so you’re just a blathering empty Democrat groupie.

Was that really necessary? Haven’t you seen what’s happening here? Please don’t make it any worse.

My bad! I apologize nahant. This topic really stirred some of the bad traits in our conversations with each other. I apologize for my part FDLers.
Thanks again RonD and I am outta here to do some “Honey-do” lists.
BT you really know how to tickle a topic with over 300 comments. Nice job.

No, I think the more he comments the better. He is like a beached whale. First he attracts, but over time he repels. Let him rant on.

awwwww….that must be depressing…you already done tried all the other, irrational, infantile stuff, like pointing out war crimes and imperialism….

well, you swayed me. I am gonna just vote democrat and hope good things come…

………I wonder what “could” happen if many, many people rejected that stupid idea…

sounds like: bleeding hearts when young, conservative and pragmatic when you are older and wiser-Bullshit!

You should.

You won’t win allies the way you’re going. Neither will Blue Texan.

But what do I know?

On “the Democrats are the ones in power”.

How conveniently monolithic! There are 58 Democratic Senators in power and 257 (? I can’t keep up with the comings and goings) Democratic members of the House. In case you haven’t noticed, each one of these operates like a little fiefdom and feels free to go its own way. The caucus is divided along a whole lot of lines. Change the characters in this mix, and you change the sort of leadership you get. But only if you drive the candidate instead of choosing from the beauty pageant.

The people driving the Tea Party candidates are the ones who will dictate the direction of votes. When progressives recruit a candidate, help them file, gin up their campaign, and develop the resources (cash and volunteers) that allows them to win, those progressive control that candidate. That’s why Dick Armey is getting these Tea Party brand Republicans to act as if they will not vote in lockstep with the GOP in Congress; they will; otherwise Dick Armey would not be supporting them.

Now there are independent Tea Party folk and then the LaRouchies and the Paulistas. But the candidates who are being put up for national office are coming with endorsements of FreedomWorks and the Club for Growth. There are no counterparts on the left of these organizations, with the capability to go into strongholds of the other party and recruit and support candidates. Maybe progressives need to think about creating that sort of infrastructure outside the Democratic infrastructure. And go after some Republican strongholds.

I really think that rank and file progressives have concentrated on symbolic protest for so long that they have not yet developed the chutzpah to take away some of the Republican seats in Congress.

I dunno, who did say that?

And if so, if someone else is rude, that means you have license to be rude in return? Or does it mean, you take the Gandhi or King path of rising above those who called names?

Show you are better than the person who made the statement you find offensive. You might even gain some folks willing to listen to you in return.

Did you READ the diary?

Gawd, what a [removed by moderator] you are.

Again, I should just lay back and take it?

Nope. I reserve the right to return shit to sender.

Everyone does deserve respect, especially those who have never disrespected anyone, like cbl2. Because someone does less than they should is no reason for a race to the bottom.

or maybe most folks (on here too) are not very “respectful” and are just more instersted in getting thier genius comments published. Heres some truth. If anyone thinks martha coakley deserves the kind of support BT is advocating for her, then let them give it. I say she dosent deserve it. that brown guy is doing what she SHOULD be doing, running toward the base. why would the other side reward her for running to HIS base too?

Another lead balloon diary. “Grow the fuck up”? Get a mirror.

yeah, the greens will put up some decent candidates here and there…they ran Todd Cretian (a real, live, scary socialist–no fake bernie sanders type)…but

I really don’t do electoral politics…its usually a waste of time, and it makes it siphons off energy from real movements for change…this post, and the mostly pointless discussion that has followed, could take place in 200 years if people allow the 1 party-2 faction capitalists to continue on…

I really think that rank and file progressives have concentrated on symbolic protest for so long that they have not yet developed the chutzpah to take away some of the Republican seats in Congress.

’06, ’08 – thjat’s what they were asking for, once they got it it proved to be; not enough?

Getting screwed by those in whom you vest your very soul, is apparently ok with you.

And I reserve the right to drown you out.

Gee, it cuts both ways don’t it.

And one who can make those kinds of comments while atop their high horse has a very myopic view of things.

Nice comeback. 3rd grade?

Yes, I went back and read the post and see that it was BT saying it. Was it directed at you specifically? Then why are you taking it so personally?

BTW, there is a difference in a front page post author telling people to “Grow the fuck up” and one commenter calling another a name.

Do you understand the difference?

BT,

I do admire and always read your posts, but the ‘grow up’ was a mistake. First of all it’s extremely disrespectful of children, they hear it every day and following our example, use it on each other. Second as seen today it excites folks and opens the door to other ad hominems and generally lowers the tone.

The arguments for or against supporting Coakley became a food fight in the lunchroom.

How about a blogosphere holiday from the ad hominem. Wouldn’t that be a nice day? If that worked we could have a holiday from the spurious comparison and so on.

It appears to me that the trolls are getting organized, perhaps encouraged by the disruptions of the town halls. If the intertoobz are an effective medium for progressives it would make sense for the right to try to disrupt.

Raising the the level of discourse among ourselves could take much of the fun out of it for trolls, they would be more easily recognized and shooed away.

Allies?

You mean like how Obama is allied with Bush, Cheney & Wall St?

correct. the republicans redefined where the “center” is by refusing to move. anyone “get it” yet?

So much energy here. Why can’t we organize like the teabaggers? We are wasting the anger on each other. Circular firing squad. We should have massive rallies for our agenda. Surely the blogs could do it. I’d be out there with y’all. We need to get organized, tap this energy, man!

Actually, you’re proving my point:

Some people will eat shit and say, “Well, at least it’s not bloody shit!”

Some refuse to eat either.

Thanks.

If you’re going to be obtuse, then there’s no point is there?

Allies as in “other progressives”. You know, the people you want to ATTRACT to your cause. Not REPEL by making tasteless comparisons.

It was a general insult.

People who live in glass houses, etc.

I don’t see how supporting anti-progressives like Obama is supposed to inspire or attract progressives.

Oh, but you’re more interested in the shiny packaging with a “D” on it than the actual contents.

In which case you wind up with a big “F” as in, “You got F’d again!”

yeah, but, she is a democrat…you are simply wrong for suggesting she should not get people’s vote!

I know, I know, people will say: but she supports the govt ability to arrest innocent citizens and hold them indefinitely in solitary confinement, or to murder innocent citizens if they want, as long as they give a “national security” rationale.

My response: we should be voting for any democrat that runs because while the republicans basically reprersent the same thing, if we don’t do this people might actually start movements and demand real change…and since the working class has all the real power, but none of the conscious, we need to keep taking that energy and making it useless…

so…

Attackerman has a new post a couple of flights upstairs

Actually I’m defending the same position as you in a few places more or less. I don’t live in MA but if I did I would have a pretty tough time here. The Ds need to figure out that they need to change course fix the serious problems they have helped create by following the path laid down by Bush. That said, I’d rather use a Representative to make the point if I had a choice because six years is a long time.

But on the issue that Coakley supporting the Patriot Act, which is what I was responding to, I’d like to see a Republican like Brown bad mouth it just a little.

Yep, obtuse.

You’re right. We need to ignore the guy, and create a movement from the ground up. The Kosman and even this site spend an inordinate amount of time on electoral politics (the wonkish, useless stuff)–which, in my view, is a waste of time.

yes, the fuck yes they do…Bush is probably a nice guy in person…I even bet he sounded nice when he instructed our military to engage in aggression against Afghanistan and Iraq…bet he seemed sweet as he ordered the indiscriminate killing of innicent civilians…

these people so worried about being polite…well, they really worry me.

I understand being respectful, but I also understand how a “position” can be not only disrespectful, but outright deadly…i prefer the bad words which support good arguments, rather than the mature words that cover FOR bad shit

Telecom immunity failed to get through when the Republicans were in power it wasn’t passed until the democrats got in power. How do you reconcile that? The democrats only gave lip service to protecting our freedoms.

Grow the fuck up, please.

BT, can you assure me that coakley’s vote for obamacare is not going to undermine the far superior (although still fatally flawed) romneycare we have in MA?

because if you can’t then you are demanding i act against my own interests. the life and death kind. and you have no moral right to do that with such distain and elitism.

i’d like to say more, in response to your “grow the fuck up,” but apparently there are a different set of rules for front pagers and us lowly commenters and it would probably get me banned. i’m not quite there yet, but keep it up and i soon will be. maybe that’s your intention. if so, it’s working.

Agreed.

In response to orsonrollover @ 388:

Exactly.

Corporate America just called: they want to know where to send the check to you…

You do recall that Obama campaigned on paying more attention to Afghanistan, that it was in his words a “forgotten war”?

Maybe it’s just me, but there was never any indication that Obama was a progressive. His voting record and action in office were purely those of a centrist Democrat. I know there were a lot of folks like myself, who did recognize this aspect of Obama during the primaries and general election so it is not a surprise that he is governing in this fashion.

Could there be so much heartburn about him from a lot of progressives because they projected their own feelings and desires onto the blank slate that Obama was and are now feeling a strong case of buyer’s remorse?

Hi selise. I was wondering if you were around. The dilemma facing MA voters is the core of this argument, and none of the people blithely telling others to grow the fuck up has addressed it in any kind of cogent way.

Could there be so much heartburn about him from a lot of progressives because they projected their own feelings and desires onto the blank slate that Obama was and are now feeling a strong case of buyer’s remorse?

Certainly, although I think even many of us who recognized his centrism from the beginning are still a little shocked at how bad he is turning out.

The democrats only gave lip service to protecting our freedoms

I would add that they have even less respect for protecting the middle-class from the rapacious greed of the corporations.

I’m down! asl long as there is no organizing for politicians

Problem was in 08 no one could criticize St. Obama–so people kept their mouths shut. I voted Nader, but didn’t tell a soul, fearing being called a purist, racist, etc. So there was that element in play.

I read parts of Barry’s campaign pamphlet (forget the title) and it outlined more neoliberal claptrap. Lots of credulous people didn’t read it. But it was all there, if you bothered to look.

big, huge time sucking waste

I know cbl2… And I had seen ratfood as sister.. so
I found out you are a Mommy!!
The discourse sure has been ugly and nothing like the Lake usually is… All this calling of names and directly confrontational with each other… We (oldtimers @ The Lake) usually have a more polite discussion of issues without all the Vitriol that has been going on ever since Jane reached out to the other Side to push bacl on this POS HRC bills!!
With a mandate to force citizens to pay entities (taxes) for health care… If that stays in with adding a Public Option is doomed to die. I would say then Kill The Bill Baby Kill the Fucking Bill Now!!

I castigated some on the thread for empty shouting and no ideas, and you challenged me to do the same, and I already had — that’s why I responded the way I did?

Maybe I missed something? I don’t think so…

Late to the thread. NN, don’t think that everyone at FDL thinks the same as or agrees with this post. That being said, those who post here are allowed to present their opinions and make their own arguments in support of those opinions.

This post is purely an opinion piece. You will find, if you visit here often enough, that there are many posts which are factual in nature and which present factual data. I happen to agree with those who do not support rewarding bad behavior by voting in politicians that support bad policy. If Coakley were running for Senator in my state, I would be writing in the name of a true progressive. Just voting for the Dem sends the wrong message to the Dem party – it says the voters will continue voting for them even when they subvert progressive causes, which will reinforce said behavior.

I say let the MA voters decide; if Coakley wins, fine, then MA progressives need to push her more to the left. If she loses, tough shit – the Dem party will maybe get that there’s a message in there somewhere, it’s not like they are unaware of the message that they’ve betrayed the voters that gave them a majority (namely, progressives, liberals, independents and youthful voters who voted for “change”).

As I’ve said before, actions talk, bullshit walks. Any teenager or child can see through bullshit, as a parent I know that for a fact. And the Dems have shown us by their actions what they are about – mostly bullshit.

devote all that energy to making a difference. sure it sounds corny, but whats really corny is self serving politicians, who will without fail, without exception, act in the interest of themselves, thier class, and big big business. every time. what if, just for example, a million progressives Joined a radical left organization and began paying dues? Like CPUSA? most of us cant be Union members but we could join a political party that actually asks for a commitment and expects one.

Go for it! DO IT! I’m not joking. Start it up, fuck all the useless wonkish ‘electoral’ stuff.

Go for it.

You can say fuck and shit and whatever all you want, nobody ultimately gives a fuck.

I just don’t hear any real ideas for moving forward from you, that’s all. What do you intend to do other than type on a keyboard?

And ‘not support war criminals you Liebercrat’ isn’t really an answer.

yup, there could be…but not for me. I did my best to persuade people…even my professors (the liberal sweethearts they are) that if they voted for Obama they would be very disappointed…

Obama=democratic party=capitalism=imperialism=we are fucked if we put our energy into electoral politics and these “blank slate” fucks!

hi rond! it is very good to “see” you.

for a bunch of progressives who have claimed to care about healthcare the silence on this issue for MA voters is imo astonishing.

i’m beginning to conclude, and maybe i should have long ago, that the issue isn’t healthcare or the economy or the environment or anything other than a mad form of team sports. the Rs (or some other convenient political enemy) must be defeated. nothing else, even the life and death decisions of supposed allies, matters.

i can’ tell if i’m outraged or grief stricken. maybe both.

What is wrong with these people? Blue Texan sez:

Grow the fuck up, please.

With all due respect Blue . . . [moderated].

You want me to bite the bullet, suck it up, absorb some pain?

Then you damn well better be polite when addressing people like me. You better be meek, subservient, humble, and sweet. Oh, but that would mean that Blue Texan would have to suck it up himself, on account of (s)he finds it demeaning or somesuch.

And that’s just not gonna happen, is it? People like me have to suck it up – not this character.

So again Blue Texan, [moderated]. Come back when you’re ready to talk sweet.

Well, how many people on this site would be willing to get active? I could write a diary and see. Plus, I live in the belly of the beast–DC–perfect for what we want to do.

yeah the HCR crap, what tine little bit of it they did put in, was all “market based” backstabbing. maybe thats why it wasnt publsihed on the website until halfway throught the campaign. and then it was just Hil’s plan,WITH the PO.

Tsk, Tsk, Tsk, name calling is childish. So perhaps you shouldn’t tell people to grow up. The fact is some people believe in principles and when a party does not follow what its base wants then what’s the use of voting for that party. Don’t give me this incrementalism foolishness. The reality is that if either party can count on its base come hell or high water then they will reward people who butter their bread which is their contributors and which is big business. Many would applaud the conservatives and tea party as they have and are forcing changes in the Republican party whether you agree with their philosophy or not. Perhaps Democrats should get a spine and the ones withholding their votes from the Democrats have got some guts. But perhaps your name calling will cause them to grow up and they forget their principles.

lol. all this attention lavished on you in this thread and STFU, cbl is the best you got ?? experience performance anxiety did ya ?

completely agree. i didn’t vote obama and i’m shocked. don’t think that’s buyer’s remorse.

all the Vitriol that has been going on ever since Jane reached out to the other Side to push bacl on this POS HRC bills!!

hate to say this but i think it started before that — when jane went after single payer advocates.

Look at Harold Ford! hes so encouraged by what hes seeing hes trying to carpetbag NY! AND STILL some “progressives” are saying, rome wasnt built in a day, we cant do it overnight, and your a quitter, and apologise!..know what? there are an endless supply of harold fords waiting to tap into the power of teh legion of suckers. dont be one.

lol. and our ratty is a guy ? actually I love the gender neutrality to be found in our online life – further proof that we are about ideas here

good to see ya btw

Assuming, of course, that the right lesson will be learned.

Progressives working for preselected Democrats does not qualify as taking seats away from Republicans if those Democrats were ConservaDems. The chutzpah I’m talking about is finding a reliable progressive and equipping them to be one of the stronger choices, forcing the conservative Dems to pick the “lesser of two evils” from their perspective. 2005-2008 was not that. In every matchup between a progressive candidate and a Rahm-picked candidate, progressives lost because they did not build a strong separate organization for the progressive candidate capable of bucking the local establishment.

I keep being struck by the willingness of progressives to remain a minority and powerless movement. Oh we did that. It didn’t work. Well, try something different. We know that symbolic protest doesn’t work. We know how easy it is to be co-opted. Yet we persist in thinking these are the only strategies. And we are quite willing to throw away modest gains in the (often false) hope that more radical gains are possible.

I’ve been watching this for well over 40 years. The progressive strategy over that time has been proverbially insane -same thing, same results.

And I watch the Republican Party slip into Massachusetts with a Tea Party story and a candidate like Mitch McConnell. And I say where is that sort of chutzpah among progressives? And the responses I get are excuses.

{{{head/desk}}}

You have to define ‘get active’. Many people on this blog — I mean the ones who’ve been coming here for years, not just since the teabagger controversy stuff — are used to actually participating in ‘wonkish electoral’ politics and have been around the block a few times.

What is it you have in mind that’s going to work where fielding candidates and fundraising and etc. isn’t? Marching with signs? Starting yet another blog? What?

I really would like to hear what you have in mind to start a grassroots progressive movement that can make inroads into the political system.

yeah…how about screw a party…let’s start a movement and give ourselves a name…something like the “working class’ movement or the capitalism” movement or

the “down with corporations” movement. I am a member of the ISO, and I work in our local branch for change…we have weekly meetings, educationals, and working committees…we organize movement stuff… we don’t shun people who don’t agree with everything (we don’t even agree with ourselves alot), but we generally support progressive movements, while also being able to be critical of the same groups that are progressive…

For instance: this allows us to support Hezbollah’s right to fight against imperialism, while also pointing out the fact that Hezbollah has shitty. religious politics…I am all about honesty, especially when that means shredding progressives, because otherwise they just apologize for people who fight for corporate america…

I was an Edwards guy until he imploded, and voted for Obama to help beat McCain-in Florida!-and had very few illusions that he was going to be the second coming of FDR, but I’m still kind of stunned. “You dance with who brung you” is apparently a lesson that Obama never learned.

or didnt pick that line toi draw rather. i understood her thinking. there was never any hope for ANY public plan, but if we had gottten behind SP they could have said we were all idelouges and kooks right from the start. They way it was played, they pretended to support PO until we were supposed to drop it, then they all said, um hey guys, those damn republicans wont let us have it, and only then did they go to calling us ldelouges and ooks. but the PO the the middle ground THEY chose. it was smart gmae playing. Jane is not perfect lets not have a personality cult here but she has a compass.she gave us a clear and reasonable “line in the sand”. we shouldnt back off of it now.

i think a lot of people are stunned. and it’s not just obama, i’m stunned by being sworn at by BT. lots of other stuff too.

(living in a “safe” state gave me the luxury of a protest vote).

i’m ok with disagreement. happens all the time and is no imo no reason not to maintain respect, etc. bullying and name calling and swearing at MA voters (as BT did today) are the kind of things i can’t stand.

It’s daunting. I’m only one person, but we could frame the health care debate into a moral issue. A massive Medicare For All campaign. I don’t know if protests work, but maybe joining with people all over who advocate for single payer. We could use the blogs to organize initially. Just talking off the top of my head.

we dont need to “start” a movement. we are already part of one. we need to consolidate what we’ve won, before they claim victory and say they won.. again. thats the old strategu and it works over and over and over because until very recently they control the information. Ithink for now it should be simple. If a candidate PROVES they are progressiv then work like hell to get them elected. if not, we dont have the time or the money to waste on the martha coalkleys of the world just because shes not republican. right now politiicans have no reason to head a genuine progressive movement because they know they dont have to. we give them anything they want as soon as they say you the republican might win/ Its a waste of time to try to play electoral politics,because we arent allowed into the game! who cares if martha caokley wins, really! i dont want her to lose to brown, but im not giveing her my support just becasue she not a registered republican

well, let’s see:

The wars: I started the first chapter of the campus anti-war network at san diego state university, along with a fellow socialist friend; we then organized upteen protests, and actually won a battle to be able to allow free specch anywhere on campus, instead of just at some steps they called the “free specch steps”

I read up on the history of these wars, and came to understand why we are at war,

I then helped organize anti-war demonstrations (independent of political parties), where I also prepared and gave speeches agaisnt the war

immigration: i did all the above, including getting my ass kicked by the cops at a rally, simply for standing up for immigrants and free speech…interestingly enough, the cop who drove me to jail started a conversation with me, telling me he didn;t understand why i hated him, because he was a democrat:) funny as hell!

Basically, go through the issues and I have probably organized around them…

WTF have you been doing/ voting ion democrats? Good job…I see that this is your idea of moving things “forward” joke.

i guess we got civil rights by voting, right..

de0segregation through electoral politics? Just like Lincoln’s “emancipation” freed the slaves, right?

I don’t really need to say “fuck,” just makes me feel good. Go watch George Carlin or Bill Hicks…they hold the same opinion as I do about people like you…”suckers of [removed by moderator]“

I’m kind of deflated by that too, seeing all the trouble we’ve gone to over the years to keep things civil here. Front pagers start saying shit like that, and boom! the work of years is undone.
Hopefully it will remain an isolated instance.

The same people who are now calling people who advocate my position mental defectives now strike me as the same ones who, back in 2008, were telling me I was a mental defective for not supporting Obama. When I said that he wasn’t any more progressive than Hillary Clinton, or when I said that he struck me as a con artist, these were the people who thought I was secretly working for the Republicans.

I’ll make you a deal, Blue Texan, and all the other people who are insulting my intelligence here. If you can show you were as right as I was back then, you can once again become someone whose opinions on these matters I’ll take seriously. That’s a particularly interesting link to me, BTW. After it was when I noticed people treating me as though I were the one who puked in their punch bowl, just for pointing out some obvious truths. It’s when I learned that it’s OK to insult the intelligence of people who don’t agree with you if you’re on the front page, but it’s not OK to respond in kind. (See Christy at comment 131 in that link for an example.)

The rest of you either need to come up with some reasoning that doesn’t involve data mining the recent past, or insulting the intelligence of people who are smarter than you are.

I’ll be back to this thread at the end of the day to be impressed by how smart you all are.

“Front pagers start saying shit like that, and boom!”

then “boom” they QUICKLY disappear

wait, wait, wait! jane Hamsher “went after” single payer advocates?

No, really, I am not being sarcastic…did she actually go against single-payer?

Can somebody answer this question?

I’ve seen that comment a dozen times on here.

I always like to see new people here but I think some of these are playing us. FDL is beginning to look and sound like Kos and that sickens me.

He has been conspicuously absent, hasn’t he? Started all this nonsense, and did a quick fade.
As I am going to do now. See all later.

No, she chose NOT to make single payer the line in the sand. It was smart. The establishment Dems had ruled it out. She knew there was going to be NO public plan of any kind. that the deal was made in secret between the Big business players the WH and senate leaders at the start. she wanted them to have to betray us, break their own promises, for no good reason. and they did. It WAS A GOOD line to draw. lets not back off of it now.

quickly: please explain why protests don’t work at all (yes, i disagree with this statement, as does reality). they aren;t everything, but you sound like you want pure electoral politics…what about a fucking strike?

could a strike work? well, the democrats are against strikes!!! right?:(

It is not worth getting angry over a single post, however objectionable.

As I noted earlier, BT routinely employs the “us and them” framing, which might have been more palatable when Bush/Cheney and a GOP legislature were in charge but now that Dems are in the majority and proving they are just as corrupt as the other guys it has grown quite tiresome.

You want people to be “meek and sweet” to you while at the same time spitting in their face and punching them in the kidneys?

And you wonder why you’re not getting the response you want?

It is a puzzlement.

you were an “edwards” guy at one point?

man, that is actually worse than getting “boo-bopped” by Obama…wow, that is embarrassing…no disrespect, but that is just embarrassing…edwards? Yikes!

OK, so I scanned the page.

You only give to ActBlue and don’t give to the DSCC or DNC anymore. You are pretty much outraged at all the same stuff as most of the folks you’re disagreeing with but I’m missing the big ideas you want others people to provide in order, I assume, to continue commenting. You want everyone else to prove, in this comment section, that they have an alternate solution but you seem a bit fuzzy on your own detailed solution. You’ve decided that some folks that don’t approve of helping Coakley get elected are wrong, and somehow that group included me before I even hinted a possible position. You say I challenged you when in fact you came screaming down on me and a few other with phrases like “fucking outrage” and demands that I posit a completely defined alternate solution, which I suppose is in keeping with the theme of the thread. Yet other than castigating those you have decided to disagree with I don’t see a solution outside of giving to ActBlue. While using ActBlue is a worth idea it is not a full blown solution. Voting against Coakley, if someone wanted to do that it would be an idea but certainly not a solution either. It may well be that solutions are outside of the scope of comments on web pages.

So on the specific issue, a comment section is not a format for solving the problems of the Democratic party. People can present differing views that do not first require a manifesto as a background to saying they are for or against voting for Coakley. Likewise other people can disagree.

Finally, I know I’m pretty much alone on this but I prefer my profanity when I’m speaking face to face. When I’m reading and writing I like to pretend I’m an educated soul.

1) Everyone in a right-to-work state who went on strike would lose their jobs. In a state like Nevada, where there are plenty of unemployed people willing to take any job no matter the wage, going on strike is essentially a non-starter choice.

2) One of your biggest allies (that being the teacher’s union) generally agrees to a “no strike” provision in collective bargaining. They break that promise, and well you’ve just shot your allies in the foot. Same with cops and firefighters – “blue flu” will only go so far.

RonD asked what ways we have to fire a shot across the Democrats’ bow.

As another commenter offered, primaries. But the time to recruit candidates and get them on the ballot is fast running out for the 2010 election cycle I think.

We can also deny money and boots on the ground.

We can continue to voice our opposition on line and by contacting our representatives.

And we can not vote for Democratic candidates who do not represent our views, just as we do not vote for Republicans for the same reason.

We should recognize that we have no duty to support any Democrat. All Democrats do have, if they want our support, a responsibility to give us a reason to vote for them. I would note almost none have.

nope…try again…fuck working hard for progressive politicians…wake the fuck up!

Talking heads video comes to mind: smacking the forehead over and over, while singing “same as it ever was”

Blue Texan wrote: “Grow the fuck up, please.”

I think I got it. Let me check. If I don’t do what Mr. Texan wants and think what Mr. Texan thinks, I’m frustratingly immature.

Mr. Texan’s attempt to change his readers’ minds by telling them to grow the fuck up is surely something he learned after years of study at the feet of the masters of the persuasive arts.

I’m sure that Mr. Texan is a huge genius and knows everything there is to know. We should all be so grateful for his attempt to tell us wrong thinking people how childish we are.

But in the real world, Mr. Texan, looks like a self-important and self-righteous horse’s ass. Since he has learned nothing from (at least) the last five decades of the Democratic Party’s use of the lesser of two evils scam, I surmise that he is a slow learner, at best, and more likely a moron.

With people like Blue Texan around, the Democratic Party isn’t going anywhere but down the tubes. Nonetheless, in an attempt to point out the flaw in Mr. Texan’s position, I’ll state my position briefly and unambiguously. Maybe even someone with his questionable mental abilities will get it.

Mr. Texan: It doesn’t matter to me if my political and economic interests and position are damaged by a Democrat or a Republican. In the final analysis, I am worse off. In other words, voting for the lesser of two evils is voting for evil. I will not vote for evil any longer — lesser or greater.

Finally, Mr. Texan, politics in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts is better left to the residents of that state. Let us see what a great job you can do in the State of Texas.

Bullshit. Early in the election cycle Edwards was my preferred candidate. Knowing what we do now it’s good that he never gathered any momentum but it is no cause for shame.

But was taking single payer off the table a smart move? I mean, we’re still getting a shit sandwich, either way. For instance, why couldn’t Jane join forces with Calif Nurses, Single Payer Action, etc? Jane’s an insider, while these folks are raw activists. A merging of the two could be more effective.

It’s great that you organized in school and protested and fought. Many of us have done the same.
So you say fuck, and so did Bill Hicks and you think that he’d agree with YOU.

And as for me, well, you have no idea as to what I’ve done in my time, do you? And you insist that I believe in slavish devotion to the Democratic Party — when I’ve suggested no such thing! But when I question your stance, when I ask you for solutions, all you can do is paint me as your fascist enemy and say I suck (Edited by Mod.]

Oooohh! Tough, hardened revolutionary! And you wonder why people want you to grow up?

Why don’t you stop constructing imaginary opponents and actually try building a workable solution? Because you still haven’t proposed anything more realistic than “START A MOVEMENT!!!”

I think everyone’s beating a dead horse here. Regardless of who gets the Mass senate seat, I think the Democrats are going to get creamed in the mid-term elections because the average voter will be so damned mad at the Democrats that they would vote for anyone who promises to make it stop. Unfortunately, that’s going to be the Republicans, who are already morphing into faux populists. Progressives, and anyone else who can string two coherent thoughts together, need to strategize on taking advantage of a situation we aren’t going to be able to avoid and might as well try to take advantage of.

I’m totally confused by this thread. Jane was fighting so hard to get the Senate HCR bill killed she even teamed with Grover Norquist, and now it seems that if coakley is not elected to maintain the “60″ vote majority, the world will come to an end. It was on this site, I believe, that I first saw reference to the big insurer/big pharma support for coakley, and now, if anyone does not support coakley, the non-supporters are called trolls and other, worse, names and motives are questiond while being cursed out. I have never seen this before at the Lake and I was watching since before it was the Lake.

One of the major suggestions is that progressives need to put up primary candidates against non-progressives. That is all well and good, but in coakley’s case, that option is no longer available. If coakley loses, it won’t be the end of the world or of dim control of Congress. It seems, however, that dim control has not really resulted in even the appearance of a fight for the progressive agenda by the Congress or the President.

I can appreciate the views of those that want people to support the current round of dims with money and votes. I, however, refuse to credit the arguments of people who call me names, attack my morality, and refuse to credit my arguments.

What happened to Firedoglake?

Agreed.

The split seems to be between those who cling to the vote for Democrats, even when they work against us theory and people who are saying enough is enough, from this moment on Dems have to earn my support.

The first tactic has been tried repeatedly and it is absurd to think if we continue to pledge blind fealty to the party we will eventually obtain a different result.

Until the public option was taken off the table by the Democrats in the Senate bill, there was a significant disagreement between most of the frontpagers and a considerable number of the commenters. Many of these wrote diaries in the Seminal outlining their views. Some of them got banned, or at least I think they got banned. Most did not. When the Senate pulled the plug on the public option, the frontpagers moved to a kill the bill position (which also happened to be what single payer advocates had been saying for a long time). I am not sure if the scars of that particular fight are forgiven or forgotten but most of us have moved on to other things.

maybe selise but the volume sure went up that!!

What happened to Firedoglake?

I think a lot of the comments on this thread are around that one single question.

what are you? the “establishment FDLers?”

Thank you for saying what I, as a newcomer, was reluctant to voice.

Read Hugh @443, that is what I advocate. I thought I mentioned a real grassroots push for Campaign Finance Reform. In fact, I know I did. I think that other than working for more progressive candidates in primaries, that’s the big target.

And no, I don’t feel like you can’t comment if you don’t have THE SOLUTION. I just get fucking BORED out of my skull hearing the same “let’s start a movement” and “you’re a Liebercrat and Obama is Hitler WAAAHHHHHH” leveled at anyone who isn’t ready to throw in the towel after a single year of a Democratic presidency. I’m just sick to death of people who really seemed to think that the world was going to spin in the opposite direction becuase of one man who was going to do it in ONE YEAR.

How does it move anything forward? How does any of the shit-throwing that’s going on here advance anything? It’s just tantrums from immature people who haven’t spent enough time living outside of campus discussion groups. It’s the same ‘let people suffer and then we’ll all revolt” shit I heard back in 2000.

I don’t insist that anyone come up with ‘the’ solution. Just don’t assume that people who question your tactics or your positions are automatically your enemies (which seems, to many here, to equal the FASCIST ENEMIES OF ALL MANKIND!!!) It really is juvenile and trivializes the issue of how to actually make people’s lives better.

yeah, I am missing something here…

A strength of progressives is that the bring a lot of ideas to the table, keep open minds, and debate to find the best approach. Let’s face it some of us are angry. Some want to send a message. But, it sounds to me like a message with a negative tone that has reached to the extreme of recommending a vote for someone that is clearly against the very aims progressives are fighting for. Better to go with your thoughts solerso, make clear to them the reason’s why you stayed home. The rest can (may) support you on that and be in synch. That’s a message those in power can respond to. Right now I hear calls on Thom Hartmann for people to volunteer to call and volunteer. Call those places and say why you are not showing up to help. If enough of that is done, it gives some evidence that those with access to high level Dems can use to make a positive arguement… “Make your policies progressive and the votes needed to win will manifest.”

Anyone who advocates voting for Brown just pollutes the water and make it harder for Obama, Reid, etc. to take the action you desire. You won’t support someone who did not make the policies you desired. Why would they turn to you for support if you worked against them?

Edwards had the best take on healthcare and on economic inequality. It wasn’t his dick but his hypocrisy that got in the way of his candidacy. I sort of wondered at the time why he suddenly seemed to be only going through the motions of being a candidate. I can forgive a lot of things but stupid is especially hard.

President Obama is a lying sack of dog dodo. Anyone who believe anything that comes out of his mouth is a moron. The best progressives can hope for is grid-lock… that is until Obama is given the boot. The health care bill is fascism (merger of state and corporate)… and it doesn’t do anything to ensure people get health care or not go bankrupt if they get sick. Its and insurance company (owned by big banks and AIG) bailout nothing more. I hope Coakley loses big and I wish I could vote against her. GO BROWN

First, as ive said many time, i dont “advocate voting for brown”.I simply cant advocate voting for coakly, and they arent the same thing. As for Obama and leading Dem politicians “taking any action I desire” thats just not going to happen. Reid dosent take action and Obamas not even going to take any of the action that he claimed HE desires. Anyone still fixated on that hope is wasting time. look at your own motives, not mine.

Been around for quite awhile – if that makes me establishment, I guess. I dislike Kos because it’s hard to read and they have out of control commenters. FDL has always been about news and what’s really happening and yes, I resent all the name-calling. If you want to do that then get your own blog.

YW and glad you are here. Welcome to the Lake. This is a really good place and rarely as loud and disrespectful as it has been the last few days. Comment often, please.

once again, your politics just seem to me to lack a lot…

for instance…my point is that, and this is a fact, workers do actually have all the power…even in your example state, they have all the power…

Now, I understand that the mass of workers are not concious of this…thus, marx, etc,etc,etc,etc, me telling you!

and the unions…joke. The unions are not run by the rank and file, but instead by the party bosses…they do not reflect the interests of the workers…there are examples of where they did, and when this happens real change is possible…

maybe we need to have some posts on FDL dealing with basicv facts of life…

a few suggestions:

1) what is capitalism

2)what is imperialism

3) what are alternative ways to organize society

4) can the democratic party be pro=worker, even though it is capitalist through and through

5) basic history of electoral politics in the US, from the start to the present

I just think a lot of you “democrats’ take a lot of myth and internalize it…I don’t blame you, because the system we grow up in is designed to do that…but damn, I don’t believe in santa anymore because it is clear that he can’t exist within our known laws of nature…also, i know that electoral politics won’t work to get real change because it has never happened in our universe…your go…

I wonder if the “grow the fuck up” crowd like TBogg, Blue Texan and Jason Rosenbaum are going to support Harold Ford if he wins the primary? They have been bashing him so far but I bet when it comes to the general election they will be defend voting for him.

OK, I absolutely agree with you. I’ve seen some on other posts taking their desire to send a message to Obama to that extreme of voting for Brown. I find that upsetting.

If you don’t have hope you are lost. I’m not talking about faith in someone else. I’m talking about effective action that increases the chances that, win or lose, the MA election has an impact.

On the issue of Campaign Finance Reform, as well as others, we are certainly in agreement although a framework for getting there is a bit hard to see right now. I have given money in the past on this issue, back when the lobbyists were not so publicly in control in DC, but right now unless there is a more politically center SCOTUS I would expect any legislation, once passed, would have an uphill battle. With Roberts and the rest of the Republican scallywags in control this kind of reform is highly unlikely to survive court review. Without Democrats who would agree to this, which are few and far between, the current incumbents will not get off the gravy train. In that regard if either Brown or Coakley were honestly for this I would hope to see them elected.

In my opinion, to get this done would first require a lot of house cleaning among Democratic ranks and that will only come from soul-searching which in turn will only come when they see themselves in crisis.

ok…well, it was just my opinion:)

However, if I had even put faith in real change through John Edwards…goddamnit, I would really be embarrassed!

i know that doesn’t make you feel good, but that is how I feel. I mean, how on earth could you ever have hope in that guy?

I am young…shouldn’t I be the one putting my faith in the wrong people and then learning my lessons? Why is it the other way around?

I know I am not smarter, so why was my analysis far superior?

simple: I am not a democrat. Thus, my view is not limited to the tunnel vision of the democratic base…

I’ll say it again; Edwards? Yikes!

hey, when i get boo-bopped I feel embarrassed too! but, damn, Edwards? Thta is the Boo-bopp of the day:)

Are you telling me that you know how things work in Nevada better than I do?

Considering I was born and raised here, I find that premise laughable.

We don’t have a skilled workforce in Nevada. Most of the jobs in this state are in occupations where one worker can be swapped out for another worker like cogs in a machine.

We don’t have much power – the casinos, the mines, the tourist industry…they run this state. And throwing down the tools and saying “No more” is not going to work here – you will get shown the door and you will find out that the corporations here do blackball you if you cause enough trouble.

Considering that I, and many others like me, still go to work because we need the health benefits we’re given to keep from DYING…I’m not inclined to do as you say.

Unless you’re willing to pony up the $3,000 a month that my health plan covers for the medication I need every day for the rest of my life.

This isn’t some political exercise with pins on a map. So forgive me if I say that your cause isn’t worth my life. CLEAR?

One of life’s great mysteries may soon get answered. If carpet bagger Ford would really be a fine example of supporting the pragmatic choice in action.

Oh, I see! You’re bringing a campus discussion curriculum on ‘alternative ways to organize society” and completely overhauling the ‘system’ to the uniformed at FDL. I see.

And you’re saying that YOU’RE the one who doesn’t believe in Santa Claus.

Well…good luck with it, is all I can say.

So people say the health care bill is start. That my be but its a bad start. Its like hitting your first tee shot out of bound. Much better to take your mulligan than destroy any possibility of ever achieving substantive health care reform. This entire nightmare health care debacle has shown us one thing: The democratic party is corrupt corporate shit and it will NEVER deliver for Americans. This means it need to be taken over from the ground up or sent the way of the wigs.

sorry…my point is that YOU are my opponent.

The way you think is my opponent.

And I don’t care to explore whether Bill Hicks would agree with me or not, because he is fucking dead and I don’t care either way.

To me, you are a roadblock on the path to real change…maybe your way will make you feel like you have some power, because you want to work “within” the system.

However, I do not wish to work within the capitalist-corporate-imperialist system…this being the case, I expect attacks from people like you…

I am sad today for our party. How is it that most democrats have joined the party of lies, thievary, CDS, and lets not forget the misogny to bring down the party that was supposed to save us? I ask what is wrong with this picture??

Our party died May 31, 2008. Some of you think Obama has moved to the center, oh heck no he did not, he moved into the republican party, which in my estimation was the plan all along.

I still remember Donna Brazile saying that we need to kill the party in order to save it.

Glenn Beck saying he has been asked to prepare us for what is going to happen Friday. So is this when Obama’s buddies call in all the debts and our country is plunged into depression and chaos??

Welcome. One of the things many of us appreciate about FDL is the civil tone of the discussion… most of the time.

There are moments when nerves become frayed and things get a bit more acerbic. Clearly the MA Senate race is having that effect.

ty for that summary Hugh:)

I wouldn’t believe Glenn Beck if he told me the sky was blue and water was wet.

Why should you?

Completely disagree. I hope Progressives stay home and don’t vote.

This will stop a bad health care bill that will be the demise of the party in 2010.

Can’t you see that Independents and Progressives are leaving the party?

The President and the worthless Democratic leadership will be forced to look at other options like the fillibuster and the nuclear option.

I disagree to a point…I think a grassroots campaign finance reform push could really do something to move those pols before having to clean house: look at how terrified the Repubs are of the teabaggers, even when 80 percent of their message is ridiculous? Why can’t the same thing happen from another direction, on an issue that actually makes sense, and would cut easily across party lines — frame it as ‘let’s get back to one person one vote’, what could be more traditionally American, and more populist?

As the the SCOTUS, Sotomayor has already voiced opposition to the idea of Corporate Personhood, and Obama will quite possibly have a couple more picks before his term is up. Will he choose sufficiently ‘Liberal’ judges to tip the balance back toward, well, balance? I don’t know, but the Sotomayor choice bodes well, unless Obama truly is the Phantom Menace that some think he is.

All that to say, I think it’s a fight worth taking on.

Blah blah blah. I’m not even listening to your little college-boy [Edited by Mod. We're going to tone down the insults for a bit, mm-kay?] any more. Get a job.

Don’t know about TBogg, BT and Jason are apparently yellow dog Democrats, so my guess is that they would.

Don’t think it matters as I suspect there is very little chance of Ford winning the primary.

Have we not come to such an impasse in the modern world that we must love our enemies – or else? The chain reaction of evil – hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars – must be broken, or else we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

one year of a democratic presidency? I think we have had more than one year of democrats in the oval office…let’s see: Obama, Clinton, Carter…yup, more than a year…

that is true. without hope the going is hard. what has to be done then is to look for new hope. I agree with some of the establishment lefties. the real ones like Noam Chomsky that obamas election did move the argument forward, but that will be lost if its not followed up fast and furiously with other meaniful actions. I dont think helping the corporate establishment fortify is meaningful in any good way. The “line in the sand” was HCR. Maybe the WH dosent understand what a gross mistake that was, but how will they if we dont show show them? I was one willing to give them a pass on FISA, on the Wars (god help me) on just about everything. But HCR was such a shameless and TOTAL sellout, that their is no way i will go on saying and doing things in the name of “party” unity. The democratic and republican parties are not vehicles for positive change. they dont want our input just our votes and money and then we can go to hell.and i have NO DOUBT that if Rahmbo himself were asked privately to sum it up, thats how he would say it. “i didnt ask for your opinion just your donation asshole”..well fuck rahm emmanuelle, hes whats wrong with the process, and if Obama made the strategic decsision to be just like rahm, then fuck him too.

yep. Just like he said he was against mandates and excise taxes at one point. What he says no longer counts with me unless he does something big to prove it.

Based on the number of years I lived in Rome, Albany, and NYC, I would find it extremely doubtful that Harold Ford could win a Dem primary in NYS.

Now, given the NYS election rules that allow folks to be listed under multiple Parties/Ballot lines, I can see where Ford would try to run under a Conservative Party line and maybe pull out a win but even that is doubtful.

To win the primary in NY, he would have to do the exact thing he (and his surrogates) are already accusing Gillibrand of doing and that is moderate many of his positions to reflect a more liberal NY than Tennessee.

They just talk meaner, they don’t govern differently than the dlc. Demobrats and republibots deliberately stir the pot to keep people voting along tribal lines. Ed Shultz said he’d cheat to win this thing. How does that not stir republibot paronoia and make them think dems are singularly corrupt and crazy.

Yeah, I do hear echos of my past lives as we fought against Nixon and the then dinosaurs of the Dem party in ’72 in his comments.

then they need to lose some more. I hope the greens run more congressional candidates.

A little late for that, mod. Or didn’t you see college boy tell me that I [Edited by Mod.] a bit upthread?

Mm-kay?

[Mod Note: Previous slur noted and removed. Mm-kay?]

They will lose some more.

well, my motivation in being here is not to curse at people on the internet…

My motivation was seeing jane on democracy now talking about healthcare, and so i thought I would check this site out…

Now I see that the politics here are super bad in some cases, and I just am past that…

I see all the squibbling over this and that…but still we gotta support democrats…i just don’t understand how people can not open eyes!

before coming to FDL a few weeks ago i did NOT know that FDL was in the pocket of the democratic party. even though I know that now I am still trying to engage in discussion, but the level of politics (even amongst individuals who are clearly incredibly smart)is so low sometimes that i get frustrated…

I know I should ge start a socialist blog or something, but i work for a living….plus, smarter people could do that:)

hes right. its not as simple as that, but it really is. there is nothing good going to come out of the american two party political establishment. nothing.