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Please stay on topic–in this case the movie PUNKS NOT DEAD, punk rock, your fave punk bands, how punk changed your life, politcs and punk..you get the drift.

If you want to jump in about health care or anything else not about please find a post elsewhere on FDL to do so. Thank you.
Please–and I can’t believe I still have to say this, but–no ad hominen remarks. And please be respectful of our guests and of each other.

And yeah I type really badly!

Welcome Susan and thanks for making this movie! Punk rock changed my life!!

Thanks. Mine, too.

I am so glad you included that clip form the Gilmore Girls. I was at th ememorial for Brendan Mullen who started the Masque her ein LA and one eulogist pointed out how punks in LA had gone on to shape all aspects of culture her, not just music and from the band brendan was in 3 of the members had advanced degrees, and that punk helped then discover themselves

Sure. Back when I got into punk, it was the early ’80′s, and I’m originally from the Washington, D.C. area, where punk rock was very political. That’s what drew me into it initially – besides, of course, the music. It was kids raging against the status quo who had something to say and wanted to be heard. Many of the kids in the scene were very educated.

Did you know Rollins then? He lived in Dc and tells the best story about working in an ice cream store and one day just being fed up and shoving an full cone of ice cream on his head behind the counter whiel serving someone

And here I thought it was the mosh pits.

My 16 year does not believe that her totally unkewl mother evah moshed.

She doesn’t believe the stories my sisters and I tell her about our Mudd Club days.

Not really. I believe he had already moved to LA and joined Black Flag by the time I got into punk in ’82. I think he worked at Steve’s in Georgetown with Ian MacKaye.

I love tht kids are still doing it–and that punks now have kids. It despite it beig “mainstream”it is still a thining music of rebellion. And mosh pits.

I know – it’s funny now how many people that were into punk then, go to the shows with their kids now.

I see the same thing wiht Bats day in the fun park (goth day at disneyland) sometime 3 generations!

Punk has become way too commercialized. The punk kids today have no idea what the original punk scene was really like. It’s sad, because we really need something as incendiary as punk in this sad & exasperating era. Punk should be dangerous, not just another fad for companies to exploit.

Great documentary! I’m watching it right now.

Yeah. There are whole families together at Warped Tour. And especially at the Rebellion Festival in England (which is an amazing festival!)

Welcome Susan, and thank you Lisa!
I wasn’t terribly punkish, but I was right there in time.
If the ‘Circle Jerks’ and the ‘Germs’ and “Pearl Harbor and the Explosions’ didn’t effect the way you thought, you had passed out from bad tequila.

I agree, but anything that companies believe they can make money off of becomes co-opted by the mainstream. For us, it was new and scary and dangerous and rebellious. But hopefully, there’s something new that will rise up and be just as shocking to our generation – but I don’t know how much kids can shock us since we’ve sort of been through it all.

Thanks – glad you like it.

Yet, the DIY ethic still lives on, asSsusan shows in Punks Not Dead. Susan, tell us about the punk house you visited and filmed….

As others have noted before, the person who did the most to punk the phemonenon is?

Ronald Wilson Reagan, both as Governor of California and POTUS.

But, that included tarring and feathering punks with violence, drugs, unhealthy sex and racism in order to rally American parents & religionists around the fascism that Reaganism ushered into American life.

I think some of that was instigated by shadow gov’t forces (who funded groups/scenes that served to give all punk a bad reputation).

Personally, I prefer the posi-core of bands like 7 Seconds, but straight edge eventually became just another dogma backed by violence to be exploited by Xians and the Establishment.

So, Reagan made punk a pheonomenon…

and the punk caricature made Reaganism inescapable.

That place was called the Drunk Tank, and was in Echo Park, CA. There were always punk houses like that when I was growing up as well. For us, it was 18th & T in DC. I put together a section on punk rock housing in DVD extras.

Since I have no clue about punk, please tell me when and where it started. thanks

Cheers Susan!!!

BRUCE!!! I was just talking about 18th & T. You lived there, right? At least for a little while.

wikipedia is your friend Twain ;o

unofficially yes.

Yeah that Drunk Tank footage was cool, go Echo Park! Really enjoyed the movie – you had a good perspective on the whole evolution putting mall punk, etc. in the proper context without being automatically dismissive. Personally I think Warped, Hot Topic, etc. are good things, they’re like the gateway drugs to a whole new world. But I’m still glad that when I was coming up it was a few years before Warped so I got to discover the music on my own. My first concert ever was the Ramones, it felt like I stepped into a time machine…I was floored.

It started in the mid ’70′s in NY with “white flight” and in the UK with the Thatcher era. Things were depressing and it seemed as if there was no hope for the future, so it grew out of that. There are a lot of great docs already out there that address the history, so I wanted to focus on how it’s changed and evolved, but how it’s also stayed the same in many ways.

More like squatted when thee was no place else to go.

Thanks. I tried to let the viewers form their own opinions rather than tell people how to think. Hot Topic gets a bad rap – but we bought our bondage pants from stores back then – we just had to pay a lot more.

We had some fun times there! Did the Drunk Tank footage remind you of it at all?

I saw the Ramones play in a mall parking lot in 1977 in the San Fernando Valley. KJH the local rock AM statin wa sputitng on the show. Made NO SENSE but it was fun!

Punk rock totally helped me become me. It seemed a bit more open to girl musicians, more so than “rawk.” People didn’t really blink at me being a girl drummer. I was just a drummer. (With a car!)

At a mall parking lot? Weird. I saw them a few times, but did my first stage dive at a Ramones show.

GED and Ed.D here but way to old for punk! My brother is 10 years younger and he was in the belly of the beast in LA. He went to see Guns and Roses who happened to be opening for the Stones in Dodger Stadium and came away a stone stones fan! (not that GNR were punk)

Yeah. I think girls got as much respect as guys in punk rock. Everyone just did what they wanted and were seen as equal. At least in my experience.

My first most fall down was Minutemen in Boulder CO. It’s so funny because punk rock musicans ar elike –our pals. I worked at SST Records for a while (their sound gut Dave Rat now has a huge sound compnay Rat Sound and does sound for Chili Pepers, Coachella, etc..all from punk rock)

That sounds awesome! I’m chilling in the SFV right now…next time I’m in the endless mall parking lots, I’ll try to imagine the Ramones taking it over.

I think I was at that show. I love the Stones.

How can you talk about punk as a monolith?

In the posi scene, yeah… sometimes.

In the hawdcoah scene? Fuh.

I mean, punk is as much G.G. Allin as it is Jello Biafra.

What utopia are you talking about?

The bands were totally our friends – there was no hierarchy. I was on stage taking photos that ended up on their albums, but I never got paid. It was just one of those things where it was a community and we all helped each other. It was us against them.

I saw them on my 16th in Chicago in 65. Living in Athens I was surprised to learn that REM was on the same circuit as BF.

Did punk originate in the UK or US. Thought it was the UK first, reacting against Thatcher with the likes of Johnny Rotten. Dunno. In the US, seemed more like a musical reaction to the numbness of disco, then later Reagan kept it going. Strange that we did not experience anything similar during the Bush II years. No real bursting through of rebellious creativity in music and popular culture in general. I could be wrong. Course we had the whole Obama movement from 2007, but that was more like Beatlemania.

Lots of punks came out of the Valley, the next wave was the Paisley Underground for the westside

I can only speak from my own experience. In DC in the early ’80′s, harDCore = punk rock. There was no posi scene yet; there weren’t defined scenes. G.G. Allin didn’t exist – it was the Dead Boys who did that stuff – they were the originals. It wasn’t utopia, but it was a lot of fun.

Dancin at the Zombie Zoo.

As CRASS said:

Yes that’s right, punk is dead
It’s just another cheap product for the consumers head
Bubblegum rock on plastic transistors
Schoolboy sedition backed by big time promoters
CBS promote the Clash
Ain’t for revolution, it’s just for cash
Punk became a fashion just like hippy used to be
Ain’t got a thing to do with your or me

Movements are systems and systems kill
Movements are expressions of the public will
Punk became a movement cos we all felt lost
Leaders sold out and now we all pay the cost
Punk narcissism was a social napalm
Steve Jones started doing real harm
Preaching revolution, anarchy and change
Sucked from the system that had given him his name

Well I’m tired of staring through shit stained glass
Tired of staring up a superstars arse
I’ve got an arse and crap and a name
I’m just waiting for my fifteen minutes fame

Steven Jones, you’re napalm
If you’re so pretty vacant, why do you smarm?
Patti Smith, you’re napalm, your write with your hand
But it’s Rimbaud’s arm

And me, yes, I, do I want to burn?
Is there something I can learn?
Do I need a business man to promote my angle
Can I resist the carrots that fame and fortune dangle
I see the velvet zippies in their bondage gear
The social elite with safetypins in their ear
I watch and understand that it don’t mean a thing
The scorpions might attack, but the systems stole the sting
PUNK IS DEAD. PUNK IS DEAD. PUNK IS DEAD

I have never been a big punk-rock fan, though I like my fair share of punk rock music. Anyone interested in the topic of how punk became mainstream should check out the book “Nation Of Rebels”, written by a pair of self-declared former punk-rockers.

A lot of the liberal ideals espoused by many punk-rockers are admirable and worthy of dedication.

Per the book “Nation of Rebels”, the ethos of individuality and rebelliousness was always something that capitalism was willing to embrace. The message of “being yourself” and the product of exciting music and unique looks is something people are willing to embrace and pay money for, whether they declare themselves “punks” or not.

The book argues that punk rock certainly helped change Western culture, but to say it “changed the world” like civil rights activism, labor activism, women’s rights activism, or abolotionist activism did in their time is silly.

It argues, convincingly in my opinion, that “mainstream society”, i.e. major corporations, have readily embraced punk rock because many of the above-mentioned ethos espoused by it are things that capitalism is eager to embrace. In fact, punk rock acted like many “breakthrough” products in capitalism do. It starts out as something seemingly radical, embraced by a marginal few. When others start to realize the money to be made in it, they readily embrace it, too, and bring it to mainstream society. Google, Bill Gates, Henry Ford, many other “visonaries” started small, too. Punk rock was no different.

It’s all well and good to listen to music that you like. “Punks” who do nothing but devote their lives to listening to punk rock music, going to shows, trying to play punk rock music, trying to be cooler than the next person, trying to be more “indie” or whatever, are not doing much to change the world for the better, whatever political beliefs they hold.

The only way to make meaningful change is through dedicated hard work and activism.

Check out “Nation of Rebels”, it’s an engaging read.

I’m not an expert, but historians say it started in NY, but happened almost simultaniously in the UK. The UK is where it became known because bands like The Sex Pistols, The Clash, Buzzcocks, etc. were getting signed to major labels. Very few US bands were getting signed to majors at that time.

Yes, CRASS sang that, but they’re back playing together now. And many other anarcho-punk bands are still playing. It’s convenient to say that if one band or person proclaims that punk is dead, then it is. But it’s not dead because I’m still into it. And so are many other people.

People can bitch and moan about anything. Here’s my take, nothing replaces the music that YOU grow with, that is yours. By the time punk hit music was in a downswing for me but I appreciate what it means to those who were there. If it’s not dead for you it’s not dead.

Well said. I agree. I think punk rock changed to world for those of us who were in it and embraced it – the same way perhaps flower power changed the world for that generation. But I would never liken it to civil rights or womens’ rights.

Punk can change your world or my world…his world or her world.

But has punk changed the world?

Well, as with our reaction to most things, it depends both on the extent to which we perceive the world as having changed, and the extent to which we see the change as good or bad.

So, in all honesty, if punk changed the world then, from my vantage point, that change is dangling over the edge.

The only way to make meaningful change is through dedicated hard work and activism.

That’s right, the way you think YOU live is the only way. . .

Um, I was merely pointing out that even punks could criticize punk.

But do you know if they’ve penned any new songs about Obama?

Oh. That’s true. I don’t know – we’ll have to give it some time.

I did see the Clash at the Orpheum in Boston for the ‘Combat Rock’ tour…! ;-)

One of the things that made punk so vital in the US was the political climate, Reagan Bush Bush… Clinton got us shiny happy people (though Nirvana was Clinton ra, but then punk was a a different vibe and Nirvana set the stage for the GWB era punks) but wiht Obama it will be interesting to see the dissent art that arises.

Susan, you’ve been at a lot of festivals with Punks Not Dead…will oyu be out on DVD or screening in cities soon?

Even before Reagan – Jello and Geza X both talked about how Carter told the record labels not to sign any punk bands, because he didn’t want to have the same thing happen that was going on in the UK. I’m not sure if that’s true, but I did hear it from 2 different sources. We couldn’t confirm it, so I didn’t put it in the film, but I thought it was interesting and it is in dvd extras.

If your on the streets it does not really matter who is in office. You are just trying to survive day by day. To the street punk politics are not important. Don’t get me wrong, some of the best times of my life where on the streets. To me that is the true punk.

We already did a theatrical release of the film last year. It’s out on DVD now and can be purchased through our website (www.punksnotdeadthemovie.com) – we also have an amazing giveaway for a one-of-a-kind Punk’s Not Dead Jackson guitar. Or, you can get it on amazon, netflix, or at stores like Borders and Hot Topic.

Punk may not be dead, but it is a cliche at this point, which may be worse.

I think Anti-Flag may be regretting the support they gave candidate Obama given what a corporate lackey President Obama is turning out to be.

Ditto for Jello.

It will probably take some careful timelining to figure that out. I remember listening to a radio show a while back about rock guitarists in the ’50s and early ’60s. They copied each others’ riffs almost as soon as they heard them. One garage tape making it’s way from the UK to here (or vice versa) might have been all it took to transplant punk across the Atlantic.

So who still goes to shows and what one..and what are you listening to?

My roomate calls punk rock a very special fraternity, and its true

Yeah. I do have interviews with UK punk historian Alan Parker, as well as Barry Jones, who ran the Roxy club in London, and they both said they thought it started in NY with Richard Hell, The Ramones, Patti Smith, etc. A great book to read about the NY scene is Please Kill Me, by Legs McNeil, who is also in the film.

I still go to shows! I highly recommend the Rebellion Festival in Northern England, if anyone can make the trip. It’s in the film a bit, and old-school legendary bands play along side new, up-and-coming bands. It’s a four day festival, and I’ve seen everyone from The Damned, Stiff Little Fingers, Sham 69, Cock Sparrer, The Adicts, UK Subs, TV Smith, Subhumans, Cockney Rejects, etc. play there. A lot of bands from the US go as well, like TSOL, The Dickies, Youth Brigade, Casualties, etc.

One of my kids plays in a screamo band. My sister and I go to his shows. It’s always funny to see the young people in the audience wondering what we are doing in an unhygienic bar, with sticky floors instead of the cocktail lounge in some country club.

My daughter came back from Warp tour black and blue all over and totally psyched from crowd surfing. My mother took one look at her and said “oh, your Cindy daughter alright” Which is when I first told my daughter about me and the mosh

You can check out Punks Not Dead more on the official site

Susan, thak you fo rhtis aweosme movie!

Thanks. Have a good night.

I owned and ran what was called an Alternative Rock Night Club from 1979 to 1997. Punk grew out of Nuwave which started in NYC in the mid-1979s. The 1st Nuwave band was the Ramones and 1st Nuwave hit was What I like about u. Punk started in London right after this time. The big difference between the two forms is Nuwave is heavily influenced by Reggae and Punk 50′s rock. Stylistically speaking though they are similar and related. Both were a reaction to the Progressive rock of that era and to Disco. They live on today in the post-punk bands of today and yes, punk is now retro and has been reduced to a cliche. Unfortunately , punk had a darker more reactionary side and many of today’s Corp. management crowds are PUNKS in the darker sense of that word, Selfish, narcissistic and destructive. Reagan youth if you will grown to maturity.

corporate punk.

a movement turned on itself.

microcosm.

Again, like most other things, Punk is a complex amalgation of historical, cultural and experiential variables. Subjunctive, in other words. It is not something that can be discussed other than in the manner in which we fit into that from a particular point of view. I love listening to punk music [as I understand it---iggy pop, ramones, sex pistols] but I know nothing about it “topically”. When I think of music that changed the world I think of the intense amalgamation of folk music and the 60s. That’s when I was young. Punk to me is more like a bridge individuals traverse but not part of any deepseated social, political and economic change.

Subjunctive, in other words

No, punk is not subjunctive, it is indicative, it really happened and is happening to some extent now.

Woop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWqTHYBqPgs