[Welcome Gordon Goldstein, and Host Jeremi Suri.] [As a courtesy to our guests, please keep comments to the book. Please take other conversations to a previous thread. - bev]
Lessons in Disaster: McGeorge Bundy and the Path to War in Vietnam
Gordon Goldstein’s Lessons in Disaster (Holt, 2008) is a remarkable and very relevant book. The author spent more than a year working with an icon from the second half of the twentieth century, McGeorge Bundy, as he struggled to compose his memoirs. Bundy was one of the most influential figures in a postwar generation of smart, energetic, confident, well-born men who transformed universities, politics, and foreign policy in Cold War America. As Goldstein explains, Bundy was the central character in David Halberstam’s rueful parable of The Best and the Brightest. He was one of the Masters of the Universe who brought the United States into a terribly self-defeating and enormously destructive war in Vietnam. Readers today might naturally wonder about the parallels with the architects of the twenty-first century wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as the investment strategies and corporate management philosophies that brought the world economy to its knees.
“Why do smart people make stupid decisions?” My undergraduates frequently ask this question in reference to both Vietnam and Iraq. Goldstein’s book is very helpful in beginning to formulate an answer. His focus on Bundy and the decisions surrounding the April 1961 Bay of Pigs invasion and the 1964-1965 escalation of the Vietnam War highlight the traps that Bundy and his colleagues repeatedly fell into. In the case of the Bay of Pigs invasion, Bundy and others (including President Kennedy), did not question the political and strategic feasibility of military plans rigorously. They over-estimated American power and accepted promises of quick success. As Bundy told Kennedy after the fiasco: “The President’s advisers must speak up in council…Forced choices are seldom as necessary as they seem” (41-42.)
Goldstein is convinced that Kennedy learned this lesson well. He began to question basic assumptions about American military power, the domino theory, and even the necessity of global communist containment. Goldstein recounts how the young president opted for neutralization, rather than intervention in Laos. He also restrained the hawks who wanted to use greater American force in the crises surrounding Berlin and Cuba. Most of all, Goldstein emphasizes that Kennedy refused to authorize U.S. combat forces in Vietnam, even as he increased American aid and indirect military support to the regime in Saigon. “If you had poked President Kennedy very hard,” Bundy later recalled, he would have answered that it was “essential to have made a determined effort…because we mustn’t be the ones who lost the war, someone else has to lose the war” (230.)
Observers will forever debate what the slain president might have done in Vietnam if he had only lived longer. Goldstein’s book does not offer anything new on this score. The author does, however, show how Bundy, Robert McNamara, and President Lyndon Johnson could not bring themselves to let someone else lose the war in Vietnam. All three had serious doubts about the prospects for success, but none of the three could bring themselves to advocate a shift away from escalation. In seeking to avoid a massive commitment or a complete withdrawal, Bundy, McNamara, and Johnson consistently chose the easy middle ground – limited expansion of American military efforts. In the crucial months between the late summer of 1964 and the spring of 1965 this meant American bombing of North Vietnamese positions, followed by more bombing, and then the deployment of 3,500 Marines to combat positions in South Vietnam. The first Marine deployments were followed quickly by many more as the security situation continued to deteriorate. Goldstein does an excellent job of showing how Bundy encouraged this outcome with his famous “fork in the road” memorandum of late January 1965, and his visit to Pleiku, under attack from National Liberation Force units, a week later.
Why did Bundy encourage this escalation? For all his articulate statements, Bundy could never explain himself to his own satisfaction. Goldstein recounts Bundy’s struggles. He also tells us that after Bundy’s death in 1996 his family decided to prohibit the publication of his last thoughts. Goldstein’s book represents his effort to capture Bundy’s “lessons” for contemporary readers. Above all, Goldstein blames President Lyndon Johnson for failing to ask the serious questions and push for better answers – as Kennedy did in Laos, Cuba, and perhaps Vietnam after the Bay of Pigs. Goldstein titles his final chapter with the powerful statement: “intervention is a presidential choice, not an inevitability.”
This makes sense, but it is much too incomplete. Presidents are politicians and they rarely make decisions that run against the best wisdom assembled around them. The most successful presidents – Abraham Lincoln, Franklin Roosevelt, and Dwight Eisenhower – almost always pursued policies that they could justify with the support of their most respected advisors. That is why Lincoln waited so long to remove McClellan, why Roosevelt spoke of balancing the budget during the early days of the New Deal, and why Eisenhower never firmly rejected the false allegations of a “missile gap” in favor of the Soviet Union. Corporate leaders and university presidents act the same way – they seek consensus from boards of wise heads to justify their decisions and displace blame when things go wrong.
Goldstein follows a number of other excellent historians – Fredrik Logevall, Andrew Preston, and David Kaiser, among others – in recounting how George Ball, Maxwell Taylor, Walter Lippmann, and other figures close to the White House encouraged President Johnson to reject escalation in 1965. The problem is that Johnson knew very well that Bundy and McNamara were the real Best and the Brightest. When he expressed his serious doubts about Vietnam, as President Johnson did repeatedly, he needed Bundy and McNamara to reinforce these doubts. They did nothing of the sort until a few years later, when they sought to separate themselves from their mistakes. Instead, the Masters of the Universe refused to accept the limits on American power. They refused to accept that they did not have all the answers. In the mid-1960s they refused to take risks for diplomacy and compromise, rather than force and full achievement on their own terms. Goldstein captures this when he writes that Bundy believed “it was better to fight and lose in Vietnam than not fight at all” (183.)
David Halberstam was right. The problem was that the Best and the Brightest were too smart for their own good. They refused to accept their own limitations. The same was true for American society as a whole. Goldstein’s book reminds us that successful policy requires much more than brains and brawn. Every president, CEO, and college chancellor needs advisors who will actively probe assumptions about power, purpose, and possibility. More than courage, leaders need people around them with imagination. For all his intelligence, Bundy lacked the imagination to envision an alternative future for Vietnam, and the Cold War in general. Do today’s advisors around the White House, Wall Street, and College Avenue display better imagination?



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Gordon, Welcome to the Lake.
Jeremi, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Hello everyone! I look forward to a fun and interesting conversation.
Delighted to be with you!
Gordon — Perhaps you could expand a little on why you believe McGeorge Bundy did not do more to counsel LBJ against escalation in Vietnam. Why didn’t Bundy offer better advice?
Welcome. How much information did you consider from Halberstam’s “The Coldest Winter”? That was the first place I had read about JFK and his “kick the can down the road”. He frames Vietnam as an obvious extension of the Korean War and the fear Democrats had, and still have, of appearing weak.
Jeremi: Aren’t you struck by the grim news coming out of Afghanistan? Feels very much like Vietnam in the aftermath of Johnson’s build-up in ’65. And there seems to be real tension brewing in the White House, yes?
How do you think the Best and the Brightest compare in life experience education, job experience whatever with the NeoCons and who do you think made the worse mistakes?
Were the Best and Brightest true believers were the NeoCons true believers or did they have other reasons to want war.
Great question, Raven. While we wait for Gordon’s response to your question, I will say that Halberstam’s emphasis on the hubris of American power in Korea surely carried over to the assumptions motivating advice from many of the hawks, perhaps including Bundy, in the case of the Vietnam War.
I think Bundy actually thought he was offering sound advice–to escalate, to hold on, to avoid a geopolitical defeat in Vietnam and a domestic political defeat from the right at home.
Good afternoon Gordon and Jeremi and welcome to FDL this afternoon.
Gordon I have not read your book but this sentence from Jeremi’s intro jumped right out at me:
.
Now where might we have heard of such a thing before? Is there a special level of arrogance that infects not only those folks who run for president but those who get appointed as well? (these are relatively rhetorical)
Had Bundy had a chance to read McNamara’s memoirs during this time? Did he have any perspective on McNamara’s Mea Culpa?
(Note: I am old enough to have done everything I could to avoid serving in Vietnam though I did eventually enlist and serve in the USAF AFTER the Vietnam War had ended)
Great point, Gordon, about the parallels between Vietnam in 1965 and Afghanistan in the Obama White House. I see one big difference — Obama’s determination to set an “end date” for the American military escalation in Afghanistan. Can he stick to that?
What do you think forced Kennedy to learn?
That’s a really interesting question. To be honest, I have some problems with how David treated Kennedy and Vietnam. “The Best and the Brightest” is really pretty superficial on Kennedy. Of course David did not have access to all of the government documents we now have. But I don’t think David was really very probing, or very accurate, about JFK.
I think arrogance in the White House is a BIG problem. Super high achievers — like Bundy, Rumsfeld, and perhaps Hilary Clinton — come to believe that they are capable of doing anything. When things go bad, they presume they can succeed with harder work, not a rethinking of initial assumptions.
Sounds like he passed the buck. Sounds like something Karl would say.
And I will add this–Bundy certainly thought Korea was the precise precedent. He believed Vietnam was very much like that conflict and would end as that conflict did. With an enforced stalemate that locked in some kind of partition between north and south. The historical parallel, of course, proved ruinous.
Why did JFK appoint Bundy? What was his training & experience that made him qualified for the job?
As I think you know, Gordon, I am skeptical about the positive portrayals of JFK. His rhetoric about New Frontiers encouraged an expansion of American military activities, and he showed no willingness to accept defeat in Berlin, in Cuba, or Vietnam. Laos was insignificant politically. Vietnam was not by 1963.
I haven’t yet finished the book, but it is fascinating. You identify Lesson Three as “Politics is the Enemy of Strategy,” and I keep hearing echoes of more contemporary figures as I read. Folks like Karl Rove, Rahm Emanuel, Kit Bond, Dianne Feinstein, Dick Cheney . . .
When winning the next election gets in the way of pursuing the right strategy, we’ve got a serious problem. When it supercedes pursuing the right strategy, the whole thing is lost.
Presidents need people who can — and will — tell them to keep their eye on the right thing.
This is right on. Bundy was such an incredible talent–Dean of Harvard at 34, NSC Adviser at 41. Someone who never confronted failure or adversity in his professional and intellectual life. Terrible preparation for high office, where the first rule is that nothing is as soluble to American power as it looks from the outside.
My Bold Fortune favors the bold and sometimes the Bold choice is to retreat.
Kennedy hesitated on Nam and outright shut down Operation Northwoods (plans by the Joint Chiefs to stage false-flag hijackings and shoot downs of drones disguised as commercial aircraft, as well outright murder of US civilians, to justify war with Cuba).
Could that have led to his demise?
Also, how do you differentiate “stupid decisions” from “failure for power & profit”?
But he did have more when writing “The Coldest Winter”.
Did you have access to Tom Hughes’ work?
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB121/hughes.htm
Bundy, as noted, was the leading public intellectual of his generation. As Harvard Dean and government professor and protege of Henry Stimson, he was, as I write, a “Legened of the Establishment.”
Between Bundy & McNamara, who was most responsible for the decision to escalate? Or did they work together toward that end?
I have a pretty simple definition of “stupid decisions.” They are decisions that do not promise anything but more trouble, they are decisions that only decide you are willing to watch things get worse. I like Gordon’s chapter 4 title: “Conviction without rigor is a strategy for disaster.”
Boy howdy! The review of initial assumptions is something that manages to avoid the scrutiny of a lot of folks in a lot of different industries and ways of life. Based on the assumptions I throw into the mix (or make up out of whole cloth), I think I could prove just about anything in the world that I wanted to prove.
Kennedy was quite dubious of the Joint Chiefs–the record is very clear on this. That’s why he rejected much of their advice, most significantly to deploy troops to Laos and Vietnam in 1961. But I do not know of any credible evidence whatsoever lnking this to his murder. The Oliver Stone stuff is, in my view, sensational fantasy without substantiation in the historcial record.
Gordon’s book focuses on Bundy, but he also shows that Bundy and McNamara shared many judgments. To my reading, they encouraged LBJ’s worst instincts (and insecurities) on Vietnam. By my judgment, Bundy and McNamara are both complicit. Notice how both Bundy and McNamara later blamed LBJ and took little blame themselves.
But how do you differentiate “decisions that do not promise anything but more trouble” from “decisions that do not serve stated objectives, but do enrich war profiteers and pad political nests?”
In other words, ‘For-profit Fuck-ups.’
I meant my question to be more narrowly focused. What had Bundy studied or done that was directly relevant to being NSC Advisor? Not interested in his general brilliance.
I agree with Gordon: no evidence for US military/intelligence link to JFK’s assassination.
As Gordon shows, the story of Diem’s coup, and the role of military/intelligence, is different.
Bundy and McNamara shared a similar world view and similar policy prescriptions on Vitenam. But on June 30 1965 Bundy did take exception to RSM’s support for the Westmoreland escalation plan, which was massive and incoherent. While Bundy favored that proposal ultimately, in that June 30 memorandum he called it “rash to the point of folly.” Tragic that he did not explore this skepticism more–that he failed to elevate it and drive a really probing debate. It just never happened.
Kinda like ‘magic bullets’?
I’m not sure younger folks really can get how the war flew under the radar. When I was in bootcamp in 1966 there was very little understanding about the war for most Americans. Our DI told us the politicians are sending you to a war and got back blank stares from many of us.
I am completley mystified by this adoration and prostration people have toward people that come from privledge and attain to high positions and are immediatley dubbed to be smart.
Perhaps the author can provide us with an instance that highlights the intelligence of Bundy or McNamara or Kennedy. How exactly did these men by stint of their intellect come up with insights or new ways of looking at the world that an ordinary man take off the street could not have done just as well.
For instance Hesenberg came up with the uncertainty principle, Bertrand Russel captured the relation between language and symbolic logic in his On Denoting explanation, Watson and Crick with the structure of DNA. These men showed themselves to be smart. Maybe the author can explain his fawning willingness to so readily dub these politicians as being among the Best and the Brightest.
Well, I think war profiteers usually find a way to profit from decisions of all kinds — smart and dumb. Even if Lockheed benefits from a particular decision, that does not make it inherently bad. Take aid to the Kosovars for example.
In fairness, both McNamara and Bundy ultimately took responsibility for their counsel on Vietnam. McNamara wrote “we were wrong, terribly wrong.” He spent a full decade on the lessons of the war and wrote three books about it and made multiple trips to Vietnam to meet with his former adversaries. I knew him during this period. Like Bundy, McNamara was truly driven to examine this tragedy. Some doubt this. But not me.
One of my favorite ironies is that McNamara’s middle name is Strange. You reminded me by referring to him with initials.
How do we know Bundy was smart? At an incredibly young age he transformed Harvard from a very provincial institution into a global trend setter. He created the international institutes. He broadened the faculty to include people like Kissinger, Brzezinsky, Schelling, etc. We might like what Harvard became, but Bundy helped make the modern university as we know it. That is quite impressive for someone under 40. Unfortunately, it did not prepare him for the NSC, as Gordon shows.
Bundy and MacNamara weren’t politicians.
Well, he was a professor of government at Harvard (although offered tenure without having taken a single undergraduate or graduate class in political science! True Story). So Bundy was a public intellectual who focused on US foreign policy. That was his credential for the job–that and the Harvard post.
But they benefit more from stupid, unjustified, poorly implemented aggression more than they do from peace or efficient wars, no?
Would Halliburton/KBR/Blackwater/etc. have profited from surgical strikes as much as they have from occupation?
To suggest that is, as they say, “sensational fantasy.”
Yeah, I have some memories of watching something like CBS Presents in the ’63/’64 time frame talking about how the US advisors were working with the plucky south Vietnamese against the ee-vul commies from North Vietnam but not much more than that.
Although, when I got to high school in ’66, it became a little more real as we got an active duty Captain as the “Senior Military Instructor” for the ROTC side of things who was straight out of combat in Vietnam (he was promoted to Major about a month after he got back). He managed to make us begin to follow what was happening but it was still not widely paid attention to at the time.
I don’t think McNamara and Bundy ever really too responsibility. McNamara admitted mistakes, but said the responsibility lay with LBJ. In the “Fog of War” he acts as merely a good soldier to LeMay and then LBJ. Bundy, by your account, similarly blames LBJ for not eliciting the correct advice from the NSC.
Where was Bundy’s free thinking? Where was his later analysis of what he should have done, as a model for Condi Rice and others?
Sorry, I find Bundy and McNamara very self-serving. At least, Kissinger does not blame others. He justifies his actions (whether you like them or not), and does not blame others.
In his memoit there is an amusing aside when his wife to be sends a telegram asking: What is your middle name. He replied: Strange. She wrote back, I know it ‘s a strange question but I need to know….
Doubt what, that they took responsibility?
No, I think the military contractors profit from peace, as well as war. Look at the strategic buildup during the Cold War — the vast majority of the high priced weapons were never used.
Military contractors often prefer and armed peace — they can build expensive stuff, and never have to prove it works in battle.
I don’t think military contractors push us to war. American leaders and citizens make the war. Military contractors make the profits.
Jeremi makes an important point. By all accounts Bundy was a brilliant administrator. Even Halberstam, who was a Harvard student under Bundy as part of the class of ’54, makes this point. Bundy, Halberstam wrote, played with the Harvard faculty the way a cat played with mice.
It’s probably difficult when you get to know someone personally. I know Rusk’s son and, despite his opposition to both Vietnam and the current cluster-fuck, he has a blind spot toward his dad. Understandable.
I agree. I thought McNamara’s mea culpa was too little too late. All the couldas & shouldas that Halberstam revealed 30 years earlier.
And without a Ph.D. no less!
Gordon —
Do you think Bundy peaked to early in his career? Did he stop learning before he entered the White House?
What a wonderful question with which to end your introduction, Jeremi. Thank you for that, and thanks to Gordon Goldstein for chatting today.
My friend, Rufus Phillips, whose Oval Office conversation with JFK in late summer 1963 about the failure of the Strategic Hamlets program represents about the last opportunity for Kennedy to shift gears and make his choice known, is mentioned in The Best and The Brightest as someone who tried to pierce the intellectual armor of the men around Kennedy.
Do either of you see anyone around Obama who isn’t marginalized the way Paul Volcker has been? I would sure like to see Obama spend about an hour a day with Elizabeth Warren on the economy and an hour with Howard Dean on health care and an hour with — well, I’m not sure who is a fitting contrarian — on foreign policy.
This president shows a disturbing capability to shut himself off within the bubble of cascading favorable reviews. How can a president be reached in the modern era, when gatekeepers would never let Rufus Phillips into the Oval Office today?
Bundy did think that the president was ultimately responsible as commander-in-chief. But he also thought he was personaly responsible for errors of counsel and advice to the president.
His effort to capture the lessons of Vietnam dominated the last 18 months of his life. I worked with him during this period. He died of a heart attack before the task could be completed.
Here’s my take, a bunch of geniuses driven by the “scientific method”. No way could those little jungle buggers stand up to the might of the statistically superior US of A. That’s the difference I see today, we know THAT doesn’t fly.
The impression I got from Gordon’s book was that McGeorge Bundy was a man who had profoundly internalized the values and world view of some very important American institutions. This made him extremely effective within these institutions: the youngest and one of the best deans of the faculty at Harvard. It also made him useless in any other context. At some point he realized that Ho Chi Minh did not view the world in the same way as a Republican investment banker. Therefore, Ho was irrational and could only understand violence.
This is not a new idea. Halberstam says the same thing in the Brightest and the Best when he describes Bundy, Ball etc. as “provincials”.
Great point, Teddy. Presidents — as well as CEOs and university chancellors — have a tendency to isolate themselves from free thinkers. Free thinkers are unpredictable, they slow things down, they jeopardize programs in place. Those around a powerful figure start to anticipate what the leader wants to hear, and parrot that to him/her.
It takes a very skilled leader to encourage and nurture free thinking. I don’t think quick visits from outsiders can do this. I think every leader needs free thinkers who are close — loyal skeptics. Lincoln and FDR maintained those relationships. Very few leaders have done it as effectively.
Clearly it was too late–it was 1995 when McNamara reounced the war. And his admission incited a national fury because he admitted he had lost his confidence in the war as early as ’67 but continued to advocate the effort nonetheless. I wrote a piece with Bob Woodward for the Washington Post in which we touched on this–Woodward conducted the last interview with RSM before he passed away. RSM believed–incorrectly, I think–that there could be no public statement in a time of war that would give aid or comfort to the enemy.
Um, calling the Cold War ‘peace’ seems to be streching it, don’t you think?
And when the politicians ARE the beneficiaries of military contracts and recipients of contributions…
well, as someone once said:
War is a racket.
Cold or otherwise.
Do you agree?
That’s right. No doctorate. Remarkable in retrospect.
As to JFK, suggest all here read James Douglass’s “JFK and the Unspeakable.”
Douglass lays out carefully and precisely how Kennedy, once president, evolved from a rather garden variety cold warrior into a person who genuinely believed in and began to work for world peace. And how this got him killed.
Looking at just certain aspects of the JFK presidency (e.g., the Bay of Pigs) doesn’t provide the picture Douglass provides, of an individual who had the capacity and drive to evolve.
The murder of JFK is the greatest unsolved crime in American history. And we Americans pay the price of that each day.
If they had really been driven by scientific method, incoming evidence would have caused them to revise their model. Instead, like the drunk at the party, they thought if they said it one more time, and a little bit louder, surely everyone would understand. Including NVN.
When winning the next election gets in the way of pursuing the right strategy, we’ve got a serious problem. When it supercedes pursuing the right strategy, the whole thing is lost.
Yes, I think war is a racket, but so are many other things. Profit-maximizing people do not necessarily need war to enrich themselves. They often profit from many forms of “peace.”
That’s why the Nixon crew disliked and feared those of us who came home from the war and made that public statement.
Fantastic question Jeremi. And yes, I agree with the premise of the question. His great opportunity as a statesman came too early. Because he had never experienced failure or adversity–because he had never seen the consequences of superficial counsel and strategy–he was unprepared for Vietnam. There was remarkable hubris there, an arrogance that came through in bald, ludicrous staments like: The United States is tthe locomotive of the world. Every other country is the caboose…..
There are two ways to approach this. One focuses on the decision to go to war and the second on the execution of the war. From Vietnam through to Afghanistan America’s ruling class embraced war. They just botched the fight itself.
But the invasions themselves were never considered stupid decisions.
Then Buydy knew nothing. People learn from failures, not from successes.
Right on. McNamara, Bundy, and others used the language and tools of rational analysis, based on false assumptions. Garbage in, garbage out. Good decision-making requires careful and considered scrutiny of evidence from diverse sources. McNamara and Bundy failed this basic test of scientific method. They were narrow paradigmatic thinkers, in Thomas Kuhn’s terms.
Come on, you are implying they didn’t cook the books to support their position. What their number crunching couldn’t tell them was that Charlie wasn’t going to give up no matter how many of them we killed.
I suspect graduates of Iowa, Illinois and such would never have gotten us into the colossal messes the Ivy Leaguers have. Because they have a healthy respect for what they don’t know.
Oskewow!
I am not familiar with the work referenced here. But I do believe the record shows a great trajectory in Kennedy’s growth as a commander-in-chief from the early failure at the Bay of Pigs to his 1961 rejection of combat troops in Vietnam to his crisis managment of the Missile Crisis in 1962. This is a man, to pick up an earlier theme, who grew considerably–and most constructively–as a result of the humiliation of April 1961.
Doing fire support off the coast in 64 most crew members thought it was just us helping the RVN fight some communist guerillas, the only inconvenience losing sleep during nighttime firing missions. No political awareness whatsoever, me included.
In 70 Kissinger called Ellsberg in his office and asked him if there was anyone in the government that knew anything about “the enemy”. Smaaaat boys.
yet Kennedy believed, as Douglas MacArthur advised him, that it was folly to fight a convenetional land war in Asia. That’s why he always refused to send ground combat troops and capped the advisory mission at 16,000 men.
You seem naive about the multitude of benefits of FUBAR for power & profit.
I doubt any iteration will result in your enlightenment.
I wouldn’t be so sure of the greater modesty of graduates from non-Ivy League schools. My University of Wisconsin students who are at the “top of their class” share many of the assumptions about the superiority of certain modes of analysis and action. Hubris is pretty broadly distributed in our population, especially among the highly educated.
They cooked the books too. My prior response was not meant to be a complete list of everything they did wrong.
Proly was in 64, the NVA was gearing up.
Were you serving during the Tonkin Gulf incidents? Rich history still not well understood.
Darth Cheney was a Badger. . .nuff said!
Ellsberg and Kissinger. Quite a combination. Jeremi–you must have some insight into that relationship based on your work. You interviewed Ellsberg, I assume?
t does a nice job at looking at UW and the line doggies that were up to their ears in the result of that “hubris”.
Sure, Kennedy grew in office. That said, he remained committed to an interventionist foreign policy in 1962-1963. Here are some examples:
1. Continuation of Operation Mongoose from White House basement — efforts to assassinate Castro
2. Approaches to the Soviet Union for joint military action against China and its incipient nuclear capability
3. Intervention in Congo in support of separatist Katanga province
4. Escalation of covert action in Vietnam
I just do not think we can be very sure that Kennedy would have withdrawn from Vietnam. He did not withdraw American forces from any other place of firm public commitment to communist containment. The US had almost no presence in Laos when Kennedy accepted neutralization. That was the exception, not the rule.
This is the book about 1968, yes? From the persepctive of trrops, protestors and others?
The exact quote is in
by Loren Baritz.
There were 4 destroyers assigned to the De Soto Patrols.
One task element was USS MADDOX and USS C TURNER JOY. The other was USS MORTON and USS RICHARD S EDWARDS.
The elements rotated between patrolling the coast and acting as plane guard for the carrier at Yankee Station.
I served on USS MORTON at the time. Was stationed in the Combat Information Center (CIC) on the night of the “Flying Geese” incident.
So, yeah I know a little about it. *g*
Both, it goes back and forth from a nasty demonstration where students got their asses kicked by the cops to a horrific battle with the 1st Infantry Division Black Lions. It’s a great and wrenching book and the PBS show made about it is very good as well.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/twodays/index.html
I assume Jeremi is familiar with this?
Yes, I interviewed Dan Ellsberg. He is a man of great courage, but also hyperbolic. He is a man of big ideas, but little skill for implementation. He understands the limits and failures of policy-makers like McNamara, Bundy, and Kissinger. Ellsberg offers few workable alternatives, I think. He is a thinker more than a doer.
OK, just think my way.
Yes, David Maraniss’ book is excellent on the University of Wisconsin and the Vietnam War. Maraniss also has a nice protrait of young Dick and Lynn Cheney — both graduate students in Madison in 1967-68. The Cheneys are part of a large group who were revolted by the student protesters, and turned right in reaction to what they saw. Yes, Madison helped make the New Left and the Neoconservative movement at the same time. On Wisconsin!
OK, I will amend my observation. I suspect graduates of Iowa, Illinois and such would never have gotten us into the colossal messes the Ivy Leaguers have. Because others have a healthier respect for what these graduates don’t know.
Where else but a state that brought us Tail Gunner Joe and Robert M. La Follette
But he did at least hump the boonies, helped adjust his attitude.
OK, now I agree. In the 1950s and 1960s — less so now — the Harvard-Yale shine often deflected careful scrutiny. Smart graduates from other schools, like Wisconsin, would get more scrutiny and did not know enough powerful people to blunt inquiries.
Well, we need to be precise, I would suggest, about characterizing Kennedy’s as an “interventionist” foreign policy. That seems like a broad brush to paint a fairly diverse foreign policy agenda. Some thoughts on this theme:
1) Kennedy refused to intervene in Cuba when the pressure was really on to salvage the Bay of Pigs. Operation Mongoose–to topple Castro through covert operations–was a major increment below what was urged on Kennedy at the time.
2) Kennedy was damn sober about Berlin. That could have easily escalated. It did not.
3)True, Bundy wrote some crazy stuff about preempting China’s nuclear program. But of course those plans went nowhere under Kennedy or Johnson.
4) Look at the history of the missile crisis. Kennedy shot down the “surgical strike” preemption option for which there was, early on, strong support.
5) with respect to Vietnam, the question is not would he have withdrawn but whether he would have deployed ground combat forces as Johnmson did in March 1965. I’ve read everything on this and I see no evidence to support the premise that he planned to reverse his no combat troop policy. To the contrary, all of the fragmentary evidnce suggests he was planning to draw down in 1965.
Russ Feingold too!!
Took a while but it adjusted mine too.
Wow!!! Cheney “humping”? I can’t wrap my mind around that…
Did you have any idea what the actual mission was at the time? It seems even Johnson suspected we were there to stimulate a confrontation.
OK, Gordon, but all of these things could be said of LBJ in November 1963. He showed no great proclivity for hawkish behavior than JFK. They were both Cold War consensus guys, believing in the rational and gradual escalation of force to defeat communism. They believed that government intervention could solve both economic and foreign policy problems. They were New Dealers. That is exactly what made “development” in Vietnam so irresistible.
I respect your conclusion about his no troop increase but still think something even more ominous than the Tonkin incident could have changed it.
Ellsberg, not darth, how’d you like to walk point with him at slack?
Yes, Ellsberg had a way in his younger years. That is why he rarely completed his professional projects…
Stimulate, ooo, I like that. Sounds so much better than provoke!
Gordon — We have not talked about Dean Rusk at all. How did he contribute to the Vietnam mess?
Great point, J. This captures the weakness of the entire elite US foreign policy community. Big ideas. Maybe even elegant ideas. But a weakness for execution. And this personified Bundy. Obsessed with “credibility” in the age of containment. But utterly oblivious to the granular, literal application of military strategy on the ground and how it would actually produce the outcome he sought. In one of the Johnson tapes we here Bundy advise Johnson to “touch things up” in Vietnam, encoded language for ground forces. So incredibly casual. And the product of many unexamined assumptions about what could and could not be accomplished with military power in a war of counterinsurgency.
You’re killin me. Humpin the boonies means being in the field, or the bush but that will add more confusion.
Ellsberg yawning in the boonies.
I knew what you meant. Ellsberg talked about war and sex in the same way — the rush of excitement and the thrill of being “in the field.” Again, that is why he never wrote much or followed through on policy ideas. He fell victim to the same male “macho” complexes of the Kennedy crowd. Check out Robert Dean’s _Imperial Brotherhood_ if you get a chance.
Real casual if you were one of the “toucher uppers”!
check, thx
You are one of many who finds flaws in Kennedy.
I found him exciting in 1960 and read about his flaws later.
Kennedy was a complex man. He liked his women. But he he was rich and independent of the power structure, which the power structure figured he would go along like his father, who was a Wall Street master.
Kennedy tried, out of his personality, to go a different way.
There has been no president like him since him.
I think your comparison makes my point. Both JFK and LBJ confronted much the same crisis with the same team of advisers. But Kennedy told Mike Forrestal that the odds of winning in Vietnam were 100 to 1. He told everyone who would listen that ground troops were a raod to disaster. So he shut down Bundy, McNamara, Rusk, Taylor and the Chiefs on ground forces. And in OCtober ’63, one month before he’s murdered, he announces that the advisory mission would wind down by the end of ’65. He’s already planning an exit. Johnson, in contrast, cannot more quickly escalate after the election in the winter of ’65 because there is no way–no way at all–that he will over-rule Westy, RSM and the Chiefs in the first year of his presidency. So it’s the president who makes the difference. And JFK and LBJ are very, very differesnt commander-in-chiefs.
We knew that we were there primarily to assist incursions by RVN special forces, which were ongoing. We relieved MADDOX and C TURNER JOY the day after the first incident. On the second night on station we had surface contacts on radar. MORTON was a newer can and had a Dead Reckoning Tracer (DRT), basically a light table with a cursor that moved with the ship’s movements. We traced them for an hour. CIC sits behind the pilot house and with the door open you can hear instructions from the OOD. The Commodore was on board and on the bridge. When the contacts were about 2 miles from the ship we heard the Commodore yell at the CO if he believed the radar contacts were hostile. The command to open fire followed. Years later in Washington the DRT tracings were evaluated and the conclusion was we had fired on a flock of geese. I’ve never believed that. I stood right there and watched those contacts plotted, every one. I was on the radio to the White House. Radio checks every 15 minutes until we opened fire then constant back and forth.
Maybe the difference between someone who was in combat and someone who was a phony chickenshit who phonied up a Silver Star for taking a plane ride.
So they were PT boats? Did that also tell you they fired?
A question to anyone out there–what do you make of comparisons between Afghnistan and Vietnam? I have been talking about this for moonth. What do others think? And how do people see President Obama’s Afghan decisions?
So what do you think was actually happening that night? Do you believe you were engaging North Vietnamese ships?
Gee, it’s almost like the War Machine had a motive to get Kennedy out of the way.
They must have thanked their lucky stars for Oswald’s amazing aim!
lulz
Great point, Gordon. JFK and LBJ were very different personalities. There is certainly a chance JFK would have withstood the pressure to escalate, but it still would have been VERY hard. See the recent experience of Obama surrounding Afghanistan. Kennedy’s own rhetoric would have been used against him. Kennedy would have confronted the traditional criticism of Democrats as weak on communism. When pressed publicly to be tough, Kennedy had no record of backing down. In Cuba and Berlin he pursued careful middle ground positions that avoided immediate war, but maintained long-term military commitments with the real possibility of expanded (nuclear) war. I think he would have done the same in Vietnam, and that would have meant ground forces, perhaps at a slower pace than LBJ, but still a quagmire with Americans in body bags.
I recently listened to Dallek’s Nixon & Kissinger, where he cites a lot of passages from the tapes (think that was the excuse for writing the book, to string a bunch of quotes together with a smidgeon of text in between). They talked about VN in ways that were completely foreign to me. All from the POV of their own political fate.
Yes, the Dallek book shows Kissinger and Nixon as political calculators. At the same time, Kissinger and Nixon recognized that they US had to negotiate a withdrawal. They did not operate under the illusion that they could win under the terms of LBJ, Bundy, McNamara. Kissinger and Nixon pursued diplomacy more seriously than their predecessors. They also escalated air attacks — with horrible consequences.
The modern university is funded by corporations and are virtually unaffordable and whose interests now lay with these same corporations. They are also hothouses for innovations for the production of arms for the Defense department. They are a far cry from the state grants model that gave them birth and allowed entry to middle class entrees.
People that are spawned from these latter day post-Bundy virtuous universities thinking that they belong to the ruling class and are indoctrinated into beleiving that the US is an exceptional country inspite of the death it litters the world with is what you may be referring to as being smart. But in reality that is the same mentality these elte schools have had since their inception.
If you consider the war criminal Kissinger to be smart than by your criteria Hitler was a genius.
Welcom, Gordon and Jeremi. Gotfon, this sounds like a must-read book, which I am definitely going to buy. Jeremi, in reference to your statement above that Bundy & McNamara “refused to accept that they did not have all the answers.” Not only that, but they also refused to listen to those that had differing, relevant opinions (and, as we know, the protesters, who were right, were rejected out of hand).
I call this intellectual dishonesty. We had 8 years of intellectual dishonesty with Bush, and it looks like we’re in for another 4 years with the current admninstration. And Obama doesn’t even appear to have anywhere near the ‘Best and the Brightest’ advising him. He has plenty of the ‘Mediocre and Incompetent,’ many who are holdovers from the last administration. Petreus was promoted, and the war criminal and torturer McCrystal seems to be in charge of the mideastern campaigns. We on the left are running out of hope.
I see it as a disastrous decision.
I thought after Alexander the Great, let alone the recent Rooskie experience, even an Ivy Leaguer would know that the smart thing to do is stay out of there and, if you find your army there, get the hell out as fast as possible.
Well, Jeremi, this is one of those respectful, friendly disagreements about a question we both know cannot be answered–the so-called historical “counter-factual.” But I argue in “Lessons In Disaster” that there is much more evidence to support Kennedy standing firm rather than caving in.
Kennedy was literally encircled in 1961 by all of his advisers who concurred that the odds were strongly against holding on in Vietnam without a major combat troop commitment of up to 205,000 men. He rebuked them. No bloody way, he said, in essence–because he believed it would fail. If Kennedy held on when he was politically weak, why would he capitualte when he was politically strong–in 1965, with a second term never to face the electorate again; in 1965, as the champion of the missile crisis; in 1965, with no Great Socirty of doemstic legislation; and in in 1965, with four years of experience with a feckless Saigon regime inwhich he had no confidence? If Kennedy really thought we would lose–and this was his view–and if he believed this was not a vital strategic interest (even Bundy concedes this in a ’64 oral history) then who will have such influence over Kennedy to make him reverse course? I just don’t see the evidence that supports that interpretation…..
There is some truth to your point about the corporatization of universities and American society. You are also correct about the problems of access to universities — even public universities like my own — for families with modest incomes.
This is, however, only part of the story. OUr universities are also filled with remarkably innovative and free-thinking scholars and students. The problem is that they often focus too much on small disciplinary problems with little public application. We need to nurture a broader range of univesity contributions to society — not just defense and National Institutes of Health, but also international diplomacy, better business practices, etc. The liberal arts have a lot to contribute with dynamic university and government leadership. I keep hoping…
And Raven
I had spent a lot of hours on surface radar prior to that night. The DRT was positioned behind the surface radar console and standing on the opposite side of the DRT I could see both. These were good solid surface contacts, not intermittent as low flying birds tend to be.
We believed them to be PT boats. The boats that fired on MADDOX had been identified as Swatow Class. Whether they fired at us or not we’ll never know.
Gordon, I was an intel officer (MOS 8666) in Viet Nam.
I can tell you how to make a bomb, how to speak southeastern asian languages
No they were policy planners. But tell me then in what way they can be considered among the Best and the Brightest? By dint of what intellectual accomplishment or new idea?
These men are thorougoing jingoists for the most part whose main feat has been to wreak devastation and death in the pursuit of what they beleive to be US benevolence. I mindset like that is sheer stupidity and hubris. If these are the best and the brightest this country is capable of then who ranks among the worst?
I agree that Bundy and McNamara were intellectually dishonest. They refused to test their assumptions, even though they attacked Eisenhower and Dulles for the same shortcoming. Unfortunately, intellectual dishonesty is an occupational hazard of ambitious, successful people. They get where they are because they are confident and willing to take risks on minimal information. They are also adept at turning failure into what looks like success. As Gordon points out, all of this was in Bundy’s background before the NSC. The problem is that when you are at the top of government, or a coporation or university, the stakes are so much larger and the mistakes are so much more difficult to reverse. It also becomes harder to admit the mistakes.
Gordon — any comments on Rusk? How does he compare to Hilary Clinton as Secretary of State?
This is an interesting aspect of the challenge. Vietnam was never dominated by great or hegemonic powers–not Chia, France, Japan or the US. Afghanistan was never dominated by hegemonic or great powers, whether it was Alexander the Great, the British at the acme of their power, or the Soviet Union. Now the United States has doubled-down its commitment after 8 years of faltering counterinsurgency.
I recognize the dangers of an insecure Pakistani nuclear arsenal and believe that alone justifies a rapidly deployable military presence. But I am a skeptic about the school McChrystal belongs to–the belief in counterinsurgency doctrine. Historically it has succeeded 25% of the time. Not great numbers there. And when it does work it correlates with a legitimate and credible partner government, which we lack in Kabul, perhaps for years and years to come. Combine that with Afghanistan’s historical evasion of great powers imposing order and the prognosis is not terribly encouraging.
The important comparison is once again engaging in a war with an insurgency we can’t defeat militarily. The Afghans are gonna fight us until the sun falls from the sky. It took almost 3 years of cruisin’ around the Mekong Delta for that fact to sink into my skull about Charlie. If we wanted to win in Viet Nam we had to turn the place into a parking lot. Afghanistan would make a really shitty parking lot.
Yes, but in Afghanistan the Taliban is even less popular than us — at least outside of the Pashtun areas. That is a big difference from South Vietnam, where the NLF had real popular credentials.
Good question. Both seem to be true believers. Rusk in Vietnam and Hillary on Afghanistan. I see no indication of Hillary lacking any confidence this thing will work. I wonder if what is reported in public really reflects her views–if she is as much of a hawk on Afghanistan as depicted–and as confident in counterinsurgency as McChrystal is?
Well, we have different renditions of what Kennedy was prepared or not prepared to do in Vietnam had he not been murdered.
What is crucial for me is the extent to which these choices revolved around conflicting assessments of whether the war would be won.
We’ll never know, of course, but given how I understand the motivation behind American foreign policy [what's good for Wall Street and the MIC] Kennedy would have escalated. That was simply the policy embraced by the CFR—a crucial component of America’s ruling class.
The Taliban may be less popular than the U.S., but I understand they are doing the same thing they did last round, which is create security in the areas they control. And with O hotting up the war, the U.S. will kill many more civilians & bring chaos. U.S. poll numbers in Afghanistan will drop like bombs.
When discussing Dick Cheney’s education, it’s important to note that while he finished at UWyoming and did graduate work at UWisconsin, he was sent home halfway through his freshman year at Yale; this may have colored his attitude toward rich Yalies (including those at the CIA and his nominal presidential bosses, both Bushes).
As we come to the end of this lively Book Salon,
Gordon, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us discussing your book and McGeorge Bundy.
Jeremi, Thank you very much for Hosting this great Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t bought Gordon’s book yet, here is a link.
Thanks all.
And the limits of military power are pushing strategists inthe direction of deploying additional resources–all of the development aid and infrastructure and jobs and schools and medical care and nation-building. Rory Stewart, a British foreign policy expert, compares the offical Army and Marine counterinsurgency manual to the annual report of the World Bank. He has a point–our goals, as McChrsytal sets them out, are to protect allof Afghanistan’s population. And we cannot achieve that objective.
That is my point.
It was never occupied, because anyone with a lick of sense steered clear of it.
Kennedy had pretty definitively decided to de-escalate, according to people I know who were right there when he decided it. See Halberstam.
its much more important that the we are no more wanted in afghanistan than we were in vietnam.
The idea that Kennedy did not really intervene in Cuba must come as a surprise to Cubans.
It was the task given to Bobby I belevie to assure that the US would make the Cuban population suffer until they turned away from Castro by an illegal comprehensive embargo that would assure their privation of food and medicine.
But oh well they did refrain from bombing it after all.
That won’t last long as long as we keep blowin’ ‘em up. I wonder how much being from different tribes has to do with the northern Afghans not liking the Taliban because they’re mostly Pashtun. I saw a piece the other day with about Afghans demonstrating against us. Can’t find it now. The more troops we put in we’ll see how the Afghans react.
Thanks for coming, Gordon. Enjoyed it very much. Ordered your book earlier when I read Elliott’s preview of the Book Saloon.
Vietnam was never dominated by great or hegemonic powers–not Chia, France, Japan
say what?
France from 1855 to 1955?
I missed that. Say what?
I’m sorry but who exactly are the Americans protecting the Afghan population from? It wouldn’t be the very same American military would it?
If you claim it is the Taliban then you must know that the Taliban are themselves Afghans. The majority of the Afghans want to resolve their differences with the Taliban peacefully. And the majority want the US out.
It must also have escaped your notice, but the US is the insurgency without which there could not be a counterinsurgency. You really must learn to see things from the point of view of the people who inhabit the countries which the US invades. It offers a more clear perspective.
I guess maybe 100 or so years isn’t that long.
I believe he’s talking about comparing the World Bank report’s goals and McChrystal’s goals.
Sheesh. The Chinese ruled the place for over a 1000 years. Admittedly, that was a 1000 years ago so is a stretch. *g*
Afghanistan was ruled by the Mongols for a time.