[Welcome Ethan Brown and Host Suzanne] [As a courtesy to our guests, please keep comments to the book. Please take other conversations to a previous thread. - bev]
I am honored to host today’s FDL Book Salon featuring Ethan Brown and his latest book, Shake The Devil Off: A True Story of the Murder That Rocked New Orleans. Ethan’s previous book, Snitch, was also featured on an FDL Book Salon and it is good to welcome him back..
Don’t let the subject matter of this book throw you off — this is much more than a true-crime book about a gruesome murder-suicide in post-Katrina New Orleans. The actual murder-suicide is the least of what this book is about. It is the story of undiagnosed and untreated PTSD, Katrina, the failures of the American safety net, the ever-increasing violence in post-Katrina New Orleans as the city struggles to survive, and the writing of the story itself. All of these intersect at the crossroads of these deaths. Ethan talked to those who knew Zackery Bowen and Addie Hall, their family, friends, co-workers, and the soldiers Zack served with — to try to find out the why.
The why hooked me and it should hook you too.
This is the story of how the military cut loose a decorated Iraq War combat veteran, with no health care and no benefits, after he exhibited symptoms of significant mental health problems. They issued him a General (Under Honorable Conditions) Discharge in spite of Zack being recommended for an Honorable Discharge. That veteran with undiagnosed PTSD returns to New Orleans, tries to pick up the pieces of his life in the French Quarter, struggles to hold everything together, including himself, while everything falls apart around him — and then Katrina hits.
Ethan dove into that why — the first half of the book examines Zackery Bowen’s life up to the one-word sentence describing the killing of Addie Hall. Zackery dismembers her body and jumps off a hotel roof. The cops find a note in his pocket confessing to killing Addie and telling them where he had hidden her body.
It is also the story of Ethan’s journey on that road to why. Just as Truman Capote did when researching In Cold Blood, Ethan moved to New Orleans and immersed himself in not only the hunt to understand what happened and why but also the culture of The Quartericans (as Addie called those who lived in the French Quarter) that is so much a part of this life (and death) in New Orleans.
There are no lurid details here. Ethan reports with a sensitivity that other coverage lacked.
Beyond the sad story of Zack and Addie, and those left behind to mourn them, there is a broader problem among returning vets, as detailed in this Rolling Stone article about the Fort Carson murder spree and this CBS report on the increasing numbers of suicides by soldiers. PTSD and the problems created by it are not going away and will continue to worsen unless they are acknowledged and properly responded to by our government.
As Lana, Zack’s wife, said:
The government is sending hundreds of thousands of little girls and boys off to war and not taking care of them. The gravity of what Zack did is unusual. But that it happened is not.
Not everyone who reads this book will enjoy it but some people need to read it, especially those in the White House, the Pentagon and the VA, and New Orleans’ government.
Ethan Brown has written for New York magazine, The New York Observer, Wired, Vibe, The Independent, GQ, Rolling Stone, Details, The Guardian, and The Village Voice, among other publications. He is the author of two previous books, Queens Reigns Supreme and Snitch.
Ethan is joining us in the comments. We are hoping for a lively discussion so ask questions and tell us what you think.



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hey ethan — nice to have you back again
Hi to all…thanks for having me.
Ethan, Welcome back to the Lake.
Suzanne, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Welcome back to Firedoglake – so glad you are here!
Thanks Bev and thanks Suzanne
Welcome back to Firedoglake – so glad to have you!
Thanks @egregious
ethan, this was a difficult book to read — it must have been a very difficult book to write.
It was difficult though I have to say that the most difficult aspect of the book was researching it. Military culture is very, very difficult to penetrate and I had a very long struggle to get Zackery Bowen’s military record.
I submitted a FOIA and had to hire a military records expert as well
the wall of silence the military erects around its own — how did you get through that protective wall those he served with erected?
what drew you to this story ethan?
Suzanne, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon!! Right up your expertise and experiences.
Welcome to the lake Mr Brown! Thanks Suz and Bev.
Haven’t read the book yet – will soon. Did leaf through the Amazon reviews today for flavor. Interesting Zach’s mother posted there.
I’m curious if your sense of New Orleans changed after your immersion there. Had you spent time there previously? Do you think the city itself was critical to what happened? Or was it (and its circumstances) primarily a setting for something that was inevitable?
It took a lot of begging and pleading and long efforts to convince the soldiers who served with Bowen in Iraq that I was going to do this seriously. And that I was going to try to get everything right…
Good afternoon Ethan and welcome back to FDL.
And good afternoon Suz and welcome to the daylight hours :})
Ethan, I have not had an opportunity to read your book but do have a question. When Zack was discharged, what was the rationale used by the Army? Is this one of those situations that has been covered intermittently where he had received a traumatic brain injury while in Iraq but the Army “determines” is a “pre-existing condition” that winds up allowing them to at least attempt to duck responsibility for his condition?
I know both the NY Times and WaPo0 have covered these situations occasionally (and especially for the Post since it was a component to their Walter Reed series)
i think you showed a sensitivity others lacked — you are not after the lurid details and were not trying to sensationalize or tabloidize the story. you wanted to know about the man they were trying to protect.
Welcome, Ethan.
Forgive a simplistic question, but where did the title phrase come from?
Welcome back Mr. Brown, and thank you for hosting, Suzanne! Hiya Bev!
Mr. Brown – where is the law in all this? Has local local law enforcement washed their hands, saying that this is just another sad tale? Are they powerless to act because of the typical military barriers?
@SunnyN: I’d been coming to New Orleans for several years prior to writing the book. This was pre-flood NO so the NO that I moved to post federal flood as obviously a very different place.
And yes, I do think NO played a part in this crime–Bowen was one of the “holdouts” in the French Quarter who didn’t leave during Katrina…and he had serious depression, anger etc afterward…
Why? Bureaucracy? Privacy? Or other reasons? Couldn’t his wife have gotten the records for you?
@dakine: Bowen was given a ‘general’ discharge (which is sort of between honorable and dishonorable). I had vets experts look at his record and their opinion (and mine now) was that he deserved an honorable discharge.
The NYT has an article about vets attending school on the GI Bill at Ivy League institutions. The adjustment for these folks is extremely difficult even thought they have support. Imagine what it’s like when vets are just cut loose to fend for themselves.
Who recommended Ethan for an honorable, his CO?
As a technical note, there is a “Reply” button in the lower right hand of each comment. Clicking “Reply” will pre-fill the name and comment to which you are replying (and make it easier for everyone to follow the conversation and save you a few key strokes).
If you’ve had to refresh your screen for new comments and questions though, some browsers don’t totally like to cooperate until the page finishes loading completely.
It helps a lot when you’re one of them, or have gotten to know one of them well. There are many reasons they don’t like to talk about such things, and as you’re doubtless aware, suspicion of journalists is only one of the minor ones.
@cujo, the title comes from an old gospel song; a New Orleanian I know who experienced a murder in his family invoked the phrase ‘shake the devil off’ when talking about a ‘second line’ (jazz funeral) for his murdered relative.
thought it was apt in a number of ways for the book…
@raven: Bowen was recommended for an honorable all the way up the chain of command to a Colonel who inexplicably recommended a general.
thanks for the note had forgotten about that
bureaucracy and privacy, yes. FOIA gave me a heavily redacted version of the military record. had to convince a relative of Bowen’s to sign off on a ‘next of kin’ request for record, which was unredacted.
“General discharges are given to service members whose performance is satisfactory but is marked by a considerable departure in duty performance and conduct expected of military members. Reasons for such a characterization of service vary, but are always preceded by some form of nonjudicial punishment utilized by the unit commander as a means to correct unacceptable behavior prior to initiating discharge action (unless the reason is homosexual conduct or drug abuse, in which case discharge is mandatory). A commander must disclose the reasons for the discharge action in writing to the service member, and must explain reasons for recommending the service be characterized as General (Under Honorable Conditions). The service member is normally required to sign a statement acknowledging receipt and understanding of the notification of pending discharge memorandum. They are also advised of the right to seek counsel and present supporting statements.
In addition, service members are required to sign documents acknowledging that “substantial prejudice in civilian life” may be encountered under a general discharge.[1] Despite this, some personnel think because the discharge is described as general under honorable conditions, it is as good as or the same as an honorable discharge. Concerning VA disability and most other benefits that is true, however, a general discharge may preclude participation in the GI Bill, service on veteran’s commissions, and other programs where a fully-honorable discharge is required.”
As a vet myself, I do understand the distinction between Honorable and General under Honorable Conditions Discharges.
IIRC from the Post stories and others, the Army has looked for reasons to discharge under General but Honorable Conditions a lot of folks who received traumatic brain injury precisely to avoid having to pay benefits, especially those for disability and was curious if this is why the higher ups chose the General rather than Honorable route.
Don’t know that there was anything law enforcement could have done here. Bowen was in an abusive relationship that friends tried to put an end to…and were not successful obviously.
Bowen, however, saw his benefits jeopardized by the ‘general’ discharge and both Bowen and Hall (the victim) could have been helped by mental health services in New Orleans of which there are little to none.
I’m interested in the GD description I posted in relation to any Article 15 he may have gotten.
That kind of thing makes me really sad and angry. Put these kids into a meat grinder, then further f them when they come out in pieces.
not sure of your question here…Bowen was discharged under a “chapter 13″ separation…
Agree. And 60 Minutes just had a segment on the massive problems at the VA re: administering benefits…
Hello Mr Brown, thanks for chatting today about your new book. I was not familiar with this tale until I read about “Shake The Devil Off” earlier this week. I’m most interested in your process, the immersion you went through by living in New Orleans amidst the protagonist’s friends and environment.
Do you do this for all your books? What drew you to New Orleans for this story? How much did New Orleans, and its tragedy, play a part of the tragedy of the people in your story?
Thanks for your time today, and thanks, Suzanne! for a great introduction.
i don’t think anyone in new orleans has gotten help. the entire city is still struggling to survive, even after what.. 5 years? new orleans really is an every person for themselves town now. there are no safety nets.
I’m wondering if that description is correct and, if it is, what the non-judicial offense was? I’m just wondering how that might have related to his situation.
disclaimer
I had a couple of Article 15′s myself.
For those wondering, Article 15s are judgments commanders can reach for minor offenses.
hey raven — iirc zack failed some PT requirements. until that point, he had been an exemplary soldier — even when the military would not give him leave to help his wife, who was undergoing chemotherapy while he was in iraq.
he thrived in the service.
Article 15 is from the UCMJ to describe “non-judicial punishment.” It is used for rule breaking that does not rise too the level of a full blown criminal court martial but still needs some action. It is imposed at the unit level but is also used sometimes to knock down the type of discharge from Honorable to General
Great question, thanks Teddy.
Yes, I deeply immerse myself in the research process for all my books–I write directly for the people I am writing about so I am seeking to achieve a very high level of accuracy, want people who I am writing about to feel that I am getting their experiences right. That’s the goal.
As David Simon once said (I’m paraphrasing) ‘f__K the general reader/viewer.’
I’ve always been fascinated by New Orleans–been coming here regularly since 2001 and even tried to move here pre-flood, in 2003.
Suzanne is correct–Zack failed a series of PTs in 2004–that is what led to the discharge. But according to a number of veterans experts I spoke to, the PTs should not have been enough to lead to a general discharge…
Thanks, I looked further into Chapter 13 and see that the Article 15 in NOT required for a general.
also: I spoke with the military attorney who handled Bowen’s case. He did not know that Bowen had received a general and did not believe it was deserved.
Nice. I did my dissertation on high school GED grads and one of my goals was for the folks who participated in the study to be able to read and understand it. Academic jargon free!
one thing i loved about this book, ethan, was it also includes the journey you took researching the book.
the people in zack’s life, the people in addie’ life, became people in your life.
betcha didn’t expect that when you started the journey.
One lifer screwed the guy for the rest of his life.
A couple? But there were no Art. 15s related to those failures?
Hearing about problems with vets getting discharges that they do not deserve presumably in an effort to not payout benefits…seems like an emerging problem though I dont think anyone knows the scope of the problem yet.
You wouldn’t get a 15 for failing a PT test. Article 15′s are for behavior problems.
Okay, that’s interesting and a little different from Capote, whose interest in Holcomb, Kansas was certainly negligible prior to the Clutter murders.
Would you say that you were drawn to this story, then, because of its New Orleans connection? Did researching and telling Zachery Bowen’s story allow you to achieve a goal of moving to New Orleans? Did you seek out other stories first, and how did you choose this one?
Thanks.
Thanks Suzanne. And you’re right–the journey so to speak turned out to be a lot different than I expected. It is interesting that I have been accused of being overly sympathetic to Bowen because I started the book with a long list of big problems that I expected to find in Bowen’s life (from a history of abusive relationships to major disciplinary problems in the military). Was shocked when I did not find these things–and I think Bowen’s family was shocked as well. How else, after all, could this crime be explained…
This is part of what makes the book difficult…
“Major Veteran Benefit Programs
The Department of Veterans Administration operates a number of programs providing financial, medical and other assistance to veterans. For Americans who received an honorable or general discharge, there are 4 major benefit programs:
* Disability compensation
* Veteran’s pension programs
* Free or low-cost medical care through VA hospitals and medical facilities
* Education Programs “
Why why why. it is still haunting me.
The New Orleans connection was a big part of my interest but I was much more interested in the big unanswered questions.
After the murder suicide next to nothing was known about Bowen’s history–even confirmation that he served in the Army was difficult to come by. And among his friends there were all sorts of wild rumors about his military svc.
So the enormity of the questions is what really drew me to this…
So it was related to what happened to him IN the service and most likely in Iraq? I love this “he was so different when he came home” bullshit that we hear so often. How could you not be?
what made ted bundy kill at least 48 women? he was not abused, he had a lot going for him ,that is what keeps people up at night.
Was he in the infantry?
ethan, i had a hard time trying to do a quick story arc taking zack from the military to his death.
correct me if i’m wrong here —
zack married as a very young man because lana got pregnant. he joined the service pre 9/11 for the benefits. he served in kosevo before being sent to iraq on the first wave.
It was a number of things–a discharge that he did not deserve, a rough tour in Iraq (he was in Iraq during the invasion and in Abu Ghraib as the insurgency started), a divorce right when he came home, the federal flood, an abusive relationship after his divorce.
he was an MP with the 527th MP Co.
Shouldn’t be, but they seem to take that sort of thing very seriously. Just googling for “UCMJ Article 15 realted to failing PT”, I found this discussion. Looks like the CO in this case defined repeated failures as a behavioral problem.
a SGT; he enlisted in 2000 and was quickly promoted to SGT by 2003…
The pulled some really shitty duty, especially going in.
yep–you’ve got this all right. he enlisted primarily for benefits for his new family and he enlisted pre 9-11 so he was not expecting to experience combat…
Talk about heaping tragedy upon tragedy.
Art 15s, or Captain’s Mast in the Navy, shouldn’t have any bearing on the type of discharge. Even with a Special Court-Martial on their record a person could still get an Honorable Discharge if s/he completed their enlistment. All the time I worked at VA we saw countless cases of where the Army had slapped a “pre-existing condition” notation on any person being discharged with any type of mental health problems, which precluded them from being awarded a disability rating for mental health reasons.
So, either way, he should have received help from the VA.
Yea, I mean a CO can drop the hammer and there isn’t much a trooper can do even if it is bullshit.
I in no way am arguing any different.
reading the book was like watching a train wreck in slow motion. all the red flags that were missed… this kid really struggled to ‘do the right thing’ and then katrina hit.
A taxi driver, after the Iraq invasion, asked: Where were the MPs? When he served in Korea, the MPs came right behind the leading troops. Given what happened in Iraq, MP ranks must have been waaay under what they should have been.
from above
Right: Zack could have contested the discharge but he didn’t. I think that was because it would have been difficult to contest and I know that he was burned out on the military at that point…so the whole process of contesting the discharge was not something he wanted to do.
I was really just summarizing. Probably should have been a question mark at the end, just to make sure…
I’m in the corner. But, I’m still listening.
May I modify your characterization? Not like watching a train wreck in slomo, but like watching all the conditions that will almost inevitably lead to a train wreck, but responsible parties not doing anything about them.
Do you know if anyone in the VA or the Iraq/Afghanistan veteran organizations has read your book? Have any of them spoken with you about the story? Vet groups advise us not to generalize when events like this happen, that each tragic story is individually unique.
But there’s something wrong here in the way we treat our returning heroes. Our political leaders talk a great game about how America owes a great debt, but then you hear about stories like Bowen.
What steps, what interventions — by the system and its many actors — could have prevented these two deaths, do you think?
Gotcha
Wow, it doesn’t work like that in the Navy.
Understood, I had a number of buddies who just wanted nothing to do with any of it when they got out.
Yes, Veterans for Common Sense (VCS) is very supportive of the book.
I think that in this case, Bowen should have received an honorable discharge which would have given him benefits for himself and his family–deprived of benefits, Bowen went back to low paying service industry jobs in New Orleans and there was no one to turn to for help with his problems with PTSD and major depression; both Hall and Bowen could have been helped if there were decent mental health services in New Orleans post flood. There weren’t and still arent…
In American base operations, they’ve been replaced by security guards, who are mostly, in my experience at least, contractor employees. I suspect that with less need for them, the ranks of MPs shrank over the years. Could be wrong, but that’s basic economics, really.
The movie In the Valley of Elah deals with the PTSD of young recruits returning from Iraq.
It involves the dismemberment of one of the returning soldiers by members of their own brigade-then burning the remains .
I thought of this case when I saw the movie. Have you seen it?
I lived in the quarter and Uptown for many years, and it would have been implausible to me a quarter century ago that this city would become ground zero for the epic failure of American accountability to its own citizens,namely Katrina.
Here’s the link, I cannot vouch it.
Don’t know if I can read this book.
It’s a tough read…but inspiring in some ways. I am inspired by the soldiers who served with Bowen and the resiliency of Bowen and Hall’s friends, and the resiliency of post flood New Orleans…
Wish I had a current copy of the CHNAVPERS Manual.
I have seen it. I thought it was good though I have yet to see a great movie on the Iraq-Afghanistan wars…heard the new movie (Brothers?) is excellent.
Thanks. You are probably right. But if you can’t secure the territory you capture, oh fergitabout it. So hopeless.
“Military police are trained to provide area security, usually by vehicle patrol, which is the mission of most military police stationed in Iraq. They are also trained in dealing with prisoners of war and other detainees, with special training in restraining, searching, and transporting prisoners to detainee camps. MPs can also be used as prison guards in detainee camps, although that responsibility usually falls on Internment/Resettlement Specialists, MOS 31E (Formerly Corrections Specialists).”
more wiki
I cannot understand what America thinks it is accomplishing in New Orleans. Denying an entire city mental health services after it’s practically destroyed seems cruel beyond measure. Logically, the next thing after food, water, and shelter should be counseling for the huge community loss. Without it, that city will not heal.
Why is this component not up and running in New Orleans? How have we overlooked this?
Same. Chilling.
I dare say you are not one of the people that needs to?
America what? THINKS? You answered your own question.
When I worked in psychiatry at VA the PTSD sessions were therapy for me as much as for the patients.
Good question. I don’t know the answer. The city is still struggling to get basic services (like hospitals) up and running.
There’s been a years long tug of war, for example, over getting a big hospital called Charity to re-open.
It’s frustrating because New Orleanians (rightly I think) don’t think the rest of America cares.
Thanks for the book, and book salon.
But It gotta tell you it scares the bejeesus out of me. Due to a large family, I have 9 nephews or male cousins (I’m 1 year younger than an uncle, and a year older than an aunt!) between 18-25. 6 are in the military, 4 Army, 2 Marines.
The 2 youngest are still stateside, training. The one oldest is on 2nd tour in Iraq. Not to mention my brother, Navy since ’82 and that uncle one year older than me, Marines since ’81.
The odds are just too large. One of them is going to have a PTSD snap. No evidence, but I can just sense it.
The void is such common knowledge b/c many medical resources left the city not to return.
I’ll also add that we have awful representation at every level: a terrible mayor (Nagin), an awful governor (jindal); and sen. mary landrieu can be good on some issues but terrible on others.
The trend I was referring to started long before Iraq. There’s certainly considerable need for MPs in a war. The problem is that the Pentagon seems to have largely eliminated the need for them in peacetime. That tends to make them superfluous during those times, which leads, I suspect, to their being among the specialties cut.
Doesn’t make sense if you’re thinking about what kind of Army you need in a war, but that seems to be a lesser consideration these days.
There was a book salon not long ago here with Dahr Jamail.Are you familiarwith his work?
(He’s from Houston,Texas ,btw, right down the road aways from NOLA.)
He has done some superb work about the plight of soldiers. Here’s a couple of titles of articles he’s written :
■Soldiers Forced to Go AWOL for PTSD Care
■Whistleblower Psychiatrist Warns of Soldier on Soldier Violence
I thought Nagin et al wanted New Orleans to be the new free market showcase.
I hear you…though what particularly frustrates me is that if we had a decent VA system a lot of this could be prevented. Our soldiers are performing honorably but they’re doing multiple deployments and not getting the help they need when they come home…that’s what’s driving the crisis, not the soldiers themselves.
am not familiar with his work but sounds interesting; I will check it out.
That’s true. This is the “free market recovery” at work.
The book sounds like it would make a great movie and it sounds like something that should be sold at the Bush Presidential library.
I guess I was trying to point out that the one’s that are there pull some pretty tense duty. We would wait in the mornings till the MP’s swept the roads for mines before we head down where the Southern Dragon was floating around.
I think there is some debate whether Nagin still lives in NO;)) He’s zip, as I understand it.
Thanks–though the Obama admin. is, I think, largely carrying on the same policies re: Afghanistan and Iraq as the Bush admin…
My book is not an anti-Bush book…
I can tell you that my family (elderly parents, brother and sister) have significant emotional issues regarding Katrina. My parents lost their home and have moved twice. I think it is the hardest on older people. My mom gets lost in town cause her sign posts are gone and her memory if failing. Anger is at the top of the list for my sister. I could go on and on.
We had a great VA system before the powers that be (PTB) decided it would be better if the VA followed the HMO business model. It went downhill from that day forward.
in some way, i think the entire city of new orleans has ptsd from katrina and the abandonment of it by america makes me ashamed.
the lack of treatment of our soldiers while continuing to re-deploy them, stop loss etc., has left a foul taste in my mouth and leaves me more ashamed..
Wait, I thought it was all great now????
good point, yes lots in common with the private insurance industry. lots of claims denials, insane bureaucracy, etc.
has Obama talked about helping Vets more is there more money being sent to the VA to help Vets? Obama signed us up for more war I hope he signed us up to help the Vets more.
The only reason the rest of the U.S. cared about Manhattan after 9/11 is because W scared everyone into thinking they were the next target. I haven’t read whether NYC received all the $$s promised and WTC is still a hole in the ground.
Since hurricanes can’t strike just anywhere, all the more reason for U.S.ians to not care.
There seems to be little sense of caring for fellow humans, even in the same country. U.S. patriotism seems to be centered on rallying around the flag when the U.S. invades some hapless country.
Well, I guess I’m not so disappointed that I melted down in the local office a couple of years ago!
great point. the level of trauma here is pretty astounding–on anniversaries of the federal flood, for example, the sense of dread is almost tangible.
but again I hugely admire the citizens of N.O.–they are the toughest folks I have ever met. this city will not be beaten down.
I agree see my 118 comment.
@107
Firedoglake » FDL Book Salon Welcomes Dahr Jamail, The Will to …Sep 12, 2009 … It’s a great pleasure to host this book discussion with a pathbreaking journalist and a colleague at Inter Press Service, Dahr Jamail, …
firedoglake.com/…/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-dahr-jamail-the-will-to-resist-soldiers-who-refuse-to-fight-in-iraq-and-afghanistan/ – Cached – Similar
It’s important to remember that the federal flood is an INFRASTRUCTURE issue that has relevance for ALL americans.
the damage was caused by the failure of the federally built levees…not the hurricane.
What the health care providers do is outstanding. What the bureaucrats do is another story. They’d make great small craft buoys.
see Levees.org for more info…
That’s who lost my frickin paperwork in 6 days!
The greatest engineering catastrophy ever. The part of Katrina that hit the city was at a level two. It glanced off of New Orleans. The Gulf coast got the big part of the storm. Over there it made Camille look like an afternoon shower.
I agree, but my sense is that no one sees yet a very promising future….in the secure sense. Certainly there are some bright spots, but alot feels very fragile, it seems to me.
very correct in characterizing the federal flood as an engineering catastrophe. indeed, it has been compared to chernobyl…
Good point. But still, most Americans think the infrastructure problem is potholes, which they can live with.
Don’t get me started on infrastructure. The U.S. built it all when the country was a lot poorer, but can’t afford to maintain it in richer times. Yet another priority f-u.
Levees Constructed with Newspaper :mad: (New Orleans: building …2 posts – 2 authors – Last post: Apr 26, 2008
St. Bernard and the East protected by levees with newspaper in the expansion joints, not rubber as specified in the contract Gee does this …
http://www.city-data.com › … › US Forums › Louisiana › New Orleans – Cached
They just added a wing to the VA regional headquarters at Bay Pines. Ugliest fucking building I’ve ever seen in my life. On Fridays when I go to the credit union I see ‘em bailing at 3-3:30.
the question of the future is a tough one. the population is up significantly (we’re over 300,000 now) but there are still big worries about the who the next mayor will be and continued disinterest in New Orleans at the federal level…
The levees are not the only issue. The wetlands are eroding at the rate of one football field every 15 minutes. If the wetlands were restored and the levees built properly then there would be hope. As much as I love New Orleans I would not live there now.
the lack of response and rebuilding really should be a crime.
this is not supposed to happen in modern america — how the hell are we supposed to be all we claim to be to other countries when we don’t even take care of our own people.
We got us a new little sub-facilty rightcheer in Madison County, GA!
Correct as well on the wetlands. Wetlands restoration is right up there with levees…
The Will to Resist – Dahr Jamail
The Will to Resist: Soldiers Who Refuse to Fight in Iraq and Afghanistan
I view it as a government failure. When you keep telling an agency like the Corps of Engineers that there’s no money for making things better, after a while they get used to the idea. There were certainly oversight failures, but at the same time, it just wasn’t a national priority. See the comment above about the ineffectiveness of LA’s government folks for one explanation.
How is that new Republican Congressman, Cao, doing? And does Vitter ever show any interest in what happens in the city itself? He strikes me as a very suburban type.
I ran across a pdf of a law suit right after Katrina online. It was brought by a contractor against the corp. The contractor had found that the peat level was much deeper than had been thought. The company wanted to put deeper sheet piling down to protect the city. They lost the suit and were forced to build it the way the original bid was written. I cannot find this online anymore. I may have it on an old computer though.
Sad.
With reports that Landrieu made lots of money…..doesn’t sound good.
as i said in the intro up top, this book is about so much more than a murder-suicide.
i could not do justice to all the topics in my intro — ya’ll really need to click on the link and order this book. there are layers and layers to this story.
Cao is complex…he’s pulled between his constituency (mostly African American, Dems) and his party. His votes are all over the place…
Not well versed enough on Vitter’s votes to comment though he and other Republicans down here do (on the surface at least) argue for more attention to Gulf Coast needs…
9/11 tens years later Katrina tens years later the Bush and Obama Presidential legacies are looking worse than Herbert Hoover’s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Hoover
My Bold Herbert at least fixed the Levy’s and stamped out disease Granted the evil son of a bitch could have paid the African American workers.
My guess is Bush and Obama could cause like Hoover did a switch in African American voter’s choice only this time to a third party.
History shows what betrayal plus an economic disaster can do to political landscapes.
Books like this show the small personal stories on why big changes in history happen.
The levees were the responsibility of the feds. Period. But I certainly understand the corruption of New Orleans. I went to one of the worst school systems in the country.
@139
And, his first book which was also extremely well received.”Beyond the Green Zone”:
t r u t h o u t | The Patriot: Dahr Jamail’s “Beyond the Green Zone”Jan 3, 2008 … Leslie Thatcher for Truthout: First of all, Dahr Jamail, thank you for your book and for bringing us the voices and experiences of ordinary …
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/010308B.shtml – Cached
Thanks Suzanne, and yes I think it’s a pretty multi-layered story though I do not credit myself there. the story itself is very complex, wends it way through Kosovo, Baghdad, New Orleans, etc.
That turned out to be a case of people (including me see UPDATE) not following up. The ACE fixed the newspaper thing after it was first reported. It was a stop-gap measure (no pun intended).
Yes, local representation is awful. See Nagin, the Jefferson family and now Jefferson Parish reps like Broussard who just resigned under huge cloud of corruption…
Now I live in Sacramento. It is in more danger of flooding than New Orleans was. But I do live at the beginning of the foothills at 90 feet above sea level.
the story is complex but it is not an isolated incident. like lana said:
the feds are not taking care of our infrastructure either — another new orleans is just another disaster away — and as mary said, the problems are not just in new orleans.
I remember that too.
Part of the responsibility of state and local governments is working with other governments, and bringing urgent needs to their attention. Also, LA’s Senators were among those listed in that comment. The post-Katrina story reads like a case of dysfunctional government from the federal down to the local level.
Adding here that Rolling Stone recently ran a long piece about homicides connected to Iraq vets at Fort Carson….
Are the Levey’s fixed yet are there any plans to do so because one more Hurricane and next time there might not be a New Orleans if the upriver levy’s fail and the river bed moves. Given how high the levy’s are already I think the river could move on a very different course if the levy’s fail.
The river could go through New Orleans or it might move a few miles away from New Orleans and no river no city.
Mary, That is what I was saying about all the people standing outside the Dome: The product of the worst school system in the country. Tragedy as evidence.
Ray Nagin was originally a republican who was the ceo of cox cable. He changed his party affiliation to dem when he decided to run for mayor. He is the worst mayor I have ever seen in New Orleans. That makes him a real stinker.
Mitch Landrieu might be running for mayor next time. He is Mary’s brother and the Lt. gov. of the state.
There’s some progress in enhancing protection against big storms–but not sure about the quality of construction and we’re nowhere near, say, the Netherlands re: infrastructure…
Given your comments you still got a better education than anyone in the Bush or Obama administrations.
Obama might be a good talker compared to Bush but he is still pushing Bush’s ideas which make him a moron.
The feds are taking care of the top 1% of the country.
Mitch is indeed running and is polling very well.
The other likely next Mayor is Troy Henry, a friend of Wendell Pierce from the Wire and a former exec at Enron (not kidding)
i linked to the rolling stone article in the intro and the cbs article about the increasing suicide rates of vets.
these are problems that are going to continue to get worse until the feds get off their asses and start doing what the fork they are supposed to do.
I think it makes him more of a whore.
stay on topic
Troy Henry also, famously, nearly privatized water in Atlanta.
Paging Naomi Klein!
Anything less than the best the Netherlands is the standard is a joke because we know we get hurricanes anything less than the best is just fooling ourselves waiting for the big one.
Also just imagine the economic stimulus building a first class Levy system would bring.
yes, thanks for those links Suzanne..everyone should check those pieces out.
And their dad “Moon” Landrieu had been Mayor of NOLA for YEARS,also.
Ethan, do you know how many, percentage, of our returning military become homeless? out of the system? because of the PTSD, war experiences.
Gotcha:)
Way late, so just an observation then back to catch up on comments.
Back in the early ’70s, as a newlywed, I watched my father in law defend a young Vietnam vet in a Fargo courtroom. He was charged with killing a cab driver during a North Dakota blizzard. He went to the Grand Forks sheriff’s office to turn in the cab driver’s i.d. as a soldier would turn in dog tags of the enemy.
The case was argued with a ptsd defense, and he was found not guilty by reason of insanity.
One long ago case. The more time passes, the more things stay the same. We owe much more to our veterans than gasbag b.s. and bumper sticker patriotism.
heh “Former Executive at Enron” – the crown jewel entry on any CV
there was actually a successful PTSD defense mounted in a murder case in Oregon
My brother is obsessed with the murder and suicide. When I was back home a year ago he took me to the bar where they worked. Or did they lived above it? He just had a birthday so I am going to send the book to him. After I read it.
the tabloids really lurid-up’d the details. i was so thankful to ethan’s sensitive reporting of the details.
there was no cannibalism.
To be fair, being a former executive at Enron while staying out of jail does seem like something of an accomplishment.
Thanks–Hall worked at a bar called the Spotted Cat. Bowen worked at a grocery store called Matassa’s. Bowen and Hall lived above a voodoo shop, not a bar (hence lots of silly headlines and tabloid coverage of the murder suicide).
Yep. He was responsible for the integration of the city. Some feel that Mitch lost his first bid for mayor due to the continuing hostility of the “good old boy network” against his father.
Yes, there were a number of Republicans who voted for Nagin simply because they hated the Landrieu family
If we build Levy’s we provide vets jobs, vets do get picked first for Federal jobs still right? If we give Vets good paying jobs then maybe they won’t have reason to feel so bad and the PTSD would lessen though I’m sure treatment would still be needed.
Just from my own personal experience being unemployed or working a crap job always made my bad times worse.
ethan — did you get any feedback from the soldiers zack served with after this book?
LOL
Nice to see ya. Happy New Year.
Dont think they get federal jobs first. Under Post 9-11 GI Bill, however, good benefits for college…
You would think given the evidence that “they” don’t want the economy improving anywhere.
I did yes–almost of the feedback was positive which was surprising. Think they felt that i told the story of the 527th MP Co well…
oooooo, good question.
Ethan, I don’t know if you are aware that the now imprisoned former Governor of Louisiana, Edwin Edwards, will be released from prison next year.
NOLA was a BIG center of activity for him.especially in the eighties.( He had an apartment in the same building where I lived,btw.)
I have no doubt he would be a VERY interesting interviewee for you,and for future articles or books you might write-or for general info about The CrescentCity politics and history.
Why are Southern politicians not calling for Netherlands quality levy’s to be built? The number of jobs created even if the Feds make sure they get no skim off the contracts would boost their local economies like a rocket ship?
Every small business owner should want their customers to have extra green in their wallets the more the better.
There’s a book on Edwards that was just published that is supposed to be good…havent read yet though.
As an aside, I did once interview Jim Letten–the federal prosecutor who took down Edwards.
It’s been one of the things that make a candidate more likely to be hired. I don’t think it’s been a case of “always hire veterans first”.
it was surprising to me how many of them struggled.. and how tony(?), the soldier so badly wounded ended up ‘doing the best’.
The Post office still asks if your a Vet on their forms? I always thought being a Vet helped you get federal jobs?
I don’t think it was surprising if you shot straight, obviously you did.
I’m not arguing I could be wrong.
good question–think the answer comes from GOP belief in small government. also long held hostility toward infrastructure issues, from levees to rail…
Still surprising because vets are a tough audience to please, a trait that I actually admire.
Veterans Preference
never did shit for me but that’s ok
This feed back alone could be the subject of another visit to the Lake. I hope you come back.
Thanks! hope to come back too
There are Veteran’s Preference points awarded for vets from certain periods. Service during the designated periods is worth five points on civil service jobs. Those with service connected disabilities receive 10 points.
OK–thanks for pointing that out.
Are you familiar with An Army of Dude? An Iraq vet who is truly a gifted writer.
No but I like reading military blogs and will check this out…
And they are fresh out of bubblegum
is why i was so excited to host today. i remember ethan’s snitch book salon with jerilyn merritt hosting.
echoing — i hope you visit fdl again ethan
Thanks for being here.
Got me the job at VA.
Who benefits should New Orleans become unhabitable?
Thanks Suzanne and thanks for the great questions and interest in the book.
It’s well worth checking out.
Thanks for dropping by.
oil companies.
I don’t know if New Orleans will become “uninhabitable”–and dont know who would benefit from that.
Welcome, Ethan. Thoughtful quests for the why are ever welcome with me.
When I saw the category 5 hurricane off the Gulf Coast, I understood it would make landfall even as a category 3. I remember it was Friday when I called my US Senator’s office and asked what preparations the Federal government was making to evacuate fellow Americans from the area. I also stated our fellow Americans could be evacuated to our State. The staffer acted like they had no clue or concern. I really doubt they relayed my concerns to the Senator and there was no way to find out if they did. Knowing the NOAA supercomputers and communications network can track meteorology real-time with exceptional predictive models, this looked like a we-don’t-care and we-aren’t-going-to-do-anything response. The news was blacked out but I tracked reports in the German media (two news groups one of which was TAG). I later met an evacuee being helped by a relative who was a minister in No. VA. VA DMV was irrationally and intractably unhelpful from the experience relayed. I marveled at the contrast between the help NYC or DC citizens get no-questions-asked versus the grief and abuse heaped upon citizens of New Orleans. To me the hypocrisy is obvious and unconscionable. I am deeply disturbed by the injustice delivered to the citizens of NOLA.
So, occurence of PTSD isn’t unexpected. Some of those I know that have dealt with it used some kind of calm-abiding meditation to help them slowly recover themselves from trauma. The HeartMath Institute (HeartMath.org) Heart Coherence technique is essentially the same approach and does work. Love, respect and support of others speeds that healing. I do realize that there are members of you community that may simply not get this. However, my aspiration for you and your community is the healing of your hearts and minds.
That and that rack above your left pocket!
this is a difficult book to read — as evidence by the questions today — but it is a book that needs to be read.
you can order the book via amazon or ask your local library to order it if they don’t have a copy.
Agree on hypocrisy. Even on liberal blogs, read a lot of uninformed/condescending/hostile commentary on New Orleans.
Thanks Ethan. Best of luck and Happy Mardi Gras….yeah you right!
thanks Suzanne
and to all: please let me know what you think of the book.
Oil companies were instrumental in the building of the Miss. River/Gulf Outlet. It is one of the main reasons the city flooded. It channeled the water right into it. Oil companies would be pleased as punch to have the population out of their way. They are one of the main reasons that the wetlands are disappearing. They built channels into the wetlands and never fill them back in. Hense, the erosion of the area.
The GOP takes the state if New Orleans population is scattered even more tan it already has been.
Thank you. I didn’t want to ask.
Thanks! My first Fat Tuesday here was one of the greatest days of my life.
Everyone should experience Mardi Gras…
Happy New Year to you too, man.
About 30 percent of the men and women who have spent time in war zones experience PTSD. 1.6 million servicemembers have served in Iraq/ Afghanistan.
We are setting ourselves up for huge problems as a society.
Yes, a lot of reporting early on after the murder suicide was filled with inaccuracies. Had to weed through them and it was a big task…
thank you so very much for taking time today to meet with us and answer our questions.
i connected with this book on so many levels — i have family members with ptsd, i used to live in new orleans as a kid, come from a military family, 24 years in law enforcement, etc.
Thanks for being here, Ethan. I think you’ve done a good thing with the book.
Namaste
Yep–Stanford U. study estimates 35 percent PTSD rate among vets which equals nearly 700,000 soldiers
Thanks so much for having me and am honored that the book connected with you.
As we come to the end of this Book Salon,
Ethan, Thank you for stopping by the Lake again and discussing your new book with us.
Suzanne, Thank you for Hosting this great Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t bought Ethan’s book yet, here is a link.
Thanks all.
clarify: PTSD rate among Iraq and Afghanistan vets…
New Orleans also has the longest generation history in the country. That was fractured by the storm. And can you imagine the other things that were lost? Artifacts. Art. But when you think of the human toll it is infuriating.
Thanks Bev, Suzanne and everybody here.
Link? this number is the kind of thing we need to post about constantly and get the media to cover!
thanks bev for coordinating this. it was a honor to host
and a hearty thanks to the best-behaved readers and commenters on the net
I don’t how anybody exposed to that kind of violence, combat vet or not, could not have some elements of PTSD roamin’ around. 30% is an unrealistically low number imo.
Great Book Salon, thank you Ethan Brown and thanks to Suzanne and Bev
That seems like a pretty reasonable number to me. There are an awful lot of folks in the rear with the gear.
Spencer Ackerman is upstairs!
Panic On The Streets Of Jihadistan
The way you make great profits in an HMO is by providing as minimal service as you can get by with. I know.
Yeah, you’re prolly right. Do they still say 10 support for every combat troop? We used to say in the rear with the beer.
Thanks, Ethan. This looks like a book to buy and even if you can’t read yourself, you can donate to your library. Funds are scant there, too.
1.6 million servicemembers in Iraq/Afghanistan
30% with PTSD
with the bud maybe :)
Thank you:)
Thank you Ethan Brown, Bev and Suz.
More Suz @ book salon!
Suzanne and Ethan Brown: Thanks to you both.
i was honored to be asked to host today. this is a book that needs to be read. without lessons learned, nothing will change.
Same goes for Iraq. The babies born are disproportianately deformed from depleted uranium . The drinking water is poison. Iraq was known as the beacon of the middle east before WE dropped by. Women were teaching in universities.
Sadam , with all of his faults, was not an extremist muslim. Less oil revenues to share with the general population if they are run out of the country. Too sick to raise objections. The spoils are being divided up now.