Before we start, just a couple quick notes: Please refresh your browser ever minute or so to see new comments, questions and answers. To reply to specific comment, hit the reply button underneath it and then type away. Always after a comment or question hit “send comment.”
Please stay on topic–in this case the movie Papers: Stories of Undocumented Youth, the Dream Act and immigration reform. If you want to jump in about health care or anything else not about please find a post elsewhere on FDL to do so. Thank you.
Please–and I can’t believe I still have to say this, but–no ad hominen remarks. And please be respectful of our guests and of each other.

Important topic – thanks Lisa!

Hi and welcome, thank you for making one of best documentaries about immigration.

Thanks for having us here, Lisa and FDL!

You are too kind. Tell me what you liked about it. Audiences are really responding.

How did you get involved in Papers? What drew you to the subject matter?

Thank you for this movie. I have followed this bit of the undocumented immigrants for years. It is distressing that the powers in Washington chose to use these actions to punish children that wee brought here and raised through no actions of their own.

The producer Rebecca Shine and I have a number of youth in our lives, both with papers and without. We felt the need to do something to give them a voice.

I remember when my family lived in North County (San Diego) and La Migra would wait outside the school ot do raid…horrible

Certainly it is heartbreaking and to me, it is so obviously scapegoating. To deport these young people is also so destructive to the society as a whole.

There’s quite a bit of anger on the right against these kids taking advantage of the wonderful U.S. system. Not defending those people, to be sure, but their ire certainly makes it more difficult to come to a reasonable resolution.

We could be doing so much more to make our country safe and prosperous than picking on some young people.

Our hope is that the film will help raise the level of discussion. Yelling back and forth really does not get anything done. We wanted to create a film where the youth could calmly tell their own stories themselves. They are inspiring.

But yet so many of undocumented still pay into the system.. And heck I dont have kids but I pay prop taxes, so they can go on my dime.

Thank you. As someone who’s gotten involved in U.S. politics only a couple of years ago, I’ve noticed that as far as anyone in DeeCee is concerned the only “persons” they are interested in is corporations. There don’t seem to be any real people in the world according to the DeeCee-ers (except for the ones still in utero, but that’s another story).

But once again, the anger on the right directed towards these young people is another case where they actually are blaming the blameless.

Rather consistent of them in that respect.

Yes, undocumented folks pay far more in taxes than they ever take out.

As pointed out in Papers, Microsoft supports the Dream Act

It was very interesting to spend time in DC and at both the Republican and Democratic conventions while making the film. I was both pleasantly and unpleasantly surprised.

I have a wingnut person with whom I serve on a nonprofit board. She does a lot of work, so I can’t afford to antagonize her. She sent me an email screed about how all those immigrants take advantage of the taxpayers. I replied that, according to the work I had seen, they paid a lot of taxes and didn’t recoup to the same extent. For example, many undocumented workers pay SS but never collect. Don’t know (or care) whether my general point was accurate, but she never sent me another screed and we still have a nice working relationship. Though careful to avoid talking about immigrants.

So Anne, how did you get involved with the stories of these kids–and tell us about El Grupo Juvenil.

I am hoping that putting a human face on the subject, it will be more difficult to demonize these young people and their parents.

There is a tendency on the right to attack people who can’t defend themselves for a variety of complex reasons. Perhaps you’ve noticed!

Do tell. Please give an example or two of unpleasant surprises. But I’d espcially love to hear about pleasant surprises. Not enough of those these days.

This is so important, here in San Francisco’s Mission District undocumented youth are targets for police, one false move and the kids get deported to a place they’ve possibly never been to where they speak a language they may or may not know.

Kids should never be punished for the sins of their parents, especially when that sin was to try to be good parents by doing what it took to get them a better shot in life.

And Rebecca, hi! What were some of the challenges you faced making this…how hard was it to find subjects willing to speak>

El Grupo Juvenil started with a handful of young people with and without papers who were feeling so hurt and frustrated by the society around them rejecting them at every turn. We have known some of these young people since they were 13 or 14. During and after completion of the film, many other young people became involved and so many call “Papers” “our film.”

Rebecca is on her way with log in!

Joe Arpaio gone national.

Thank you Lisa, Anne.

How are the kids you profiled doing?

Just a reminder, if you would like to help promote a screening of papers in your community, there’s a link in the post.

Well one very pleasant surprise was the large number of Republican delegates and attendees who were supportive of immigration reform. I think some of their leaders are not listening to what they really want. Shocking!

The wonderful thing is that they are all doing so well. I think that participating in making the film really helped them with their depression and hopelessness. They are all being so mature and amazing about the whole thing. I think about them a lot.

Hmmm. You gave me an interesting thought tonight, which I’m ashamed I didn’t have on any earlier FDL movie nights. There’s a new library building in the small town (pop 5000) where my country house is. They have programs to bring in users. I’ll contact the person in charge of the programs and ask if they’d like to do screenings of some of the movies you profile. Seems like a perfect fit to me.

Welcome Anne, it’s so wonderful to have you here. Thank you so much for doing the film.

There is a really vibrant migrant blogosphere of young people, isn’t there? How have they helped to organize around this issue and spread the word?

Politicians not listening to what their constituents actually want?

Whoever could have anticipated…? /s

One couple married, if I recall and she was able to legal status through her husband, after her family left the country, but her mother and siblings had to stay Guatemala…

Rebecca wanted me to pass on that we traveled the country for a year, interviewing dozens of young people. Some of the stories that didn’t make it into the film have been collected for a book called “Papers the book.”

Yes that would be a nice surprise, but

Shocking!

that the PTB aren’t listening, not so much. SOP for the Ds.

Wonderful! Any size of screening is marvelous! The Oakland Public library is about to host some screenings. We update the screening calendar on our website regularly.

Is that out now, Papers, The Book?

Yes, I don’t want to give too much away for those who haven’t seen the film but Monica’s brother follows us on Twitter from a little town in Guatemala. We sent the film to them but they haven’t received it yet. Monica’s father was at the premiere and said “Maybe this will help change people.”

Rebecca Shine tuning in here. I’m the Producer of the film and a lover of story-telling and social justice. There was no dearth of young people wanting to tell their stories. . It’s so human to want to tell you story and in cases where we are suffering, sometimes the telling the story is the best we can do for a moment. But it isn’t a small thing. . .it helps the teller and the listeners and we’re seeing that across the country as people, often people who aren’t necessarily interested or thinking about immigration, come to see the film.

Not quite yet. We are hoping that a university press is going to publish it soon. I’ll keep you posted!

I loved Jorge and his stories, his poetry.

Please do, we have a Book Salon as well!

I’m so glad you brought that up!! The Dream Activists or Dreamers or Dreamies as they variously call themselves are sooooo Web 2.0. A GREAT site is http://www.dreamactivist.org

They know each other through the ether and are just extraordinary.

Jorge is wonderful. One of the most difficult things in cutting the film was not being able to include more of his amazing poetry. He has really inspired people across the country.

Educators have also developed a discussion guide/curriculum that is focused on high school students, but really compelling for discussions among adults as well. . that will accompany the book and the film once we sell them to educational institutions.

But the focus right now is distributing the film independently as we’ve been doing, to build momentum around the film, reform and the youth leaders who are out there across the country.

We are not traditional film-makers (if there is such a thing). We didn’t go make a film in solitary and then come out wanting someone to distribute it. We have worked over the last 20 years as filmmakers, business owners and organizers. So, we spent the better part of a year and a half building interest across the country. We raised funds from 1,400 small donors from 22 states.

We have a facebook page called “Papers” that is helping continue to build that base that I encourage people to check out and “fan” us and join the conversations. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Papers/48618440950?ref=ts

What can we do to help wiht the passage of the Dream Act?

Good thing the producer is here!

Any chance we could get a listing of where screenings are scheduled?

Related book: “Just Like Us, The true story of four Mexican girls coming of age in America” by Helen Thorpe, an accomplished journalist who is the wife of Denver’s Mayor, John Hickenlooper. Great read, following these girls lives with respect and affection, and with well informed public policy and political analysis.

Thanks for this post on a very important issue.

FInd out if you have any local Dream Activist groups…, the Dream Act, as you know, has been folded in to the Comprehensive reform bill introduced by Rep. Gutierrez. Support CIR, support DREAM, encourage your congresspeople to become co-sponsors of both.

Anne and Rebecca welcome.

I thought I would mention a learning resource I use.

MIT’s Open Courseware

I know it doesn’t grant a degree. Yet, these young students need to be engage with their academic pursuits while they fight their way through the documentation maze.

We have an online screening calendar – we’ve already screened in 20 states about 130 times, and are setting a goal of 1,000 screenings before Congress votes on immigration reform.

Check out http:www.papersthemovie.com for the screening calendar (by date or state).

But the greatest thing is that any group, person, organization, school or congregation can rent the film and host a screening (including using it as a fundraiser for their local work). You can also find out about how to host a screening in your area at:

http://www.papersthemovie.com.

As for Just Like Us, someone just offered to lend it to me, she read it this week and LOVED it.

Joe Arpaio gone national.

Just the right wing San Francisco cops finding stuff to do other than keep us safe and obey the local law when they disagree with it.

Supervisor David Campos, himself once an undocumented young immigrant from Guatemala put together 8 votes to change the law to prohibit cops and juvenile probation from referring undocumented youth to the ICE. Gavin Newsom vetoed it, but the Supervisors overrode him. A great coalition of community support giving electeds cover to do the right thing, really the kind of activism that makes doing politics worthwhile, setting the national example.

The cops are protesting, as they did with state prop 215 the local lack of focus on cannabis ordinance passed several years ago, but we’ll see how this plays out.

Thinking about how to have conversations with people about immigration… I think the important thing, in order to deflate the hysteria, is to find out about what people’s fears are really about. The founder of the Minutemen started his organization after 9-11 and after he found out that he aged out of joining the military.

When is the vote?

OMG–no way? that’s nuts.

Gavin Newsom vetoed it, but the Supervisors overrode him.

I can’t phantom why he does what he does. I’m from Ohio. Gavin drives me nuts.

Why does he do the right thing on some things and then totally screws up other things?

What cities were the kids from? HOw hard was it to whittle down the pool? What where is immigrations reform right now…does it look likely to pass?

Thanks, JugOPunch. I always like to know about resources. It can be really hard for undocumented youth to find out what they can access and what they can’t. Just asking the questions can expose them.

And the message older people give all the youth, often, (adults with and without legal status) is: Get educated! Even if you fear it’s pointless (it never is!) My Jewish grandfather used to say we (Jews) had to have education or diamonds – both things you could run away with when you had to.

And so, even if it’s illegal in current law to work, where do you want to be when the law changes (and it will). Laws are human-made, fallible and one of the amazing things in the U.S. is we can non-violently change the law, that there is a process for that.

So, be educated, be ready.

Local and statewide work for justice for immigrants is absolutely critical. In the absence of federal action on immigration reform, a number of states and cities have passed their own laws targeting immigrants. A county near Portland, OR (where we are) tried to pass a law requiring all job sites to have a 4′x8′ sign saying “legal workers only” and the numbers for ICE and the local sheriff. It did not pass, but another punitive law did.

Some of our young people created an art exhibit using 4′x’8′ sheets of plywood with artwork depicting how they felt about immigration and immigrant rights. “We are all immigrants” is the title of one piece.

Aloha Anne…! Mahalo for all your efforts…! *g*

A couple of years ago on PBS,I saw a small documentary on the youth, born here, but, whom had been deported back to Latin America from LA…! They’d looked at two cities in El Salvador and Honduras, I can’t remember the specifics… But, it painted a very bleak picture for them and many keep trying to get back to the States…!

Did you address those aspects in your movie…?

what a great project! what othe rprojects are you and the kids working on?

It is hard to say when Congress will vote on immigration reform. You may recall that there was supposed to be a Comprehensive Immigration Bill (meaning adults and youth vs. The DREAM Act focused solely on youth which was already reintroduced in March 09) in September and Health Care was to be completed- but we know it all took longer – and so the House immigration Bill just came out in December. The Senate is supposed to have a bill in January (no guarantees). There is likely to be a long (difficult and I fear ugly) debate, so no way of knowing for sure if it will be in spring or summer? But this is the time (and we are so glad we timed the film to be complete RIGHT now!)

thank you anne, becky and the papers crew for inspiring so many – especially kids – to stand up and fight for equality and justice in the face of oppression

We are saying that the youth are from all over America (which they are). We purposefully did not “place” them in easily identifiable locations because they are taking such a risk by speaking out in public. This made filming a bit difficult – we couldn’t use any of the typical shots (home, family, town). It was challenging and I think gives the film a little bit of a different feel.

So with 65,000 kids graduating each year, and only 5% going to college..what about the rest? are the working under the table or using other means to work? Not being able to drive must also be very difficult…

we can non-violently change the law

Unless, you are named _____________. Hmmm, let me think.

Great snip! I really care about the immigration topic in general, particularly as regards Mexico and Central America.

I get unreasonably infuriated with people who say the “undocumented” from those areas have no right to be here.

I ask them when THEIR family first came to America, then point to the I-25 (runs from here in Denver to the border at Juarez) and say:

“That freeway is built over an ancient road, that the Spaniards then built over about 500 years ago. It’s the Camino Real (Royal Highway) and actually goes all the wasy to Mexico City. 500 Years! These people have every bit of right as much as you do to be here. 500 years!”

Drives me nuts.

Thank you, Elkasdad. It is the eagerness and support we’ve gotten that keeps us going in the difficult times of fundraising, filmmaking and mentoring (and there are certainly difficult times.)

Thx, but your website froze my computer. Or maybe it’s me. Anything scheduled for Denver or vicinity?

You’ll love the book.

The site worked for me.

Why does he do the right thing on some things and then totally screws up other things?

Not to throw matters too far off, but everyone differs on something. Newsom generally tilts progressive when there is no financial cost, but the moment a dollar is involved, he’s Mitch McConnell. His posture might have been intensified because be continued to labor under the delusion that his governor’s campaign was viable, hence, he could not afford to alienate moderate dems with a sane immigration position.

If memory served, he quit the race around the time the veto was overridden, he could have changed his position as the governor’s race was moot but he did not.

I’m lucky to live in an amazingly diverse community where folks from all over the world have come over the years, the MIssion and South of Market districts of San Francisco. Let’s hope that our cops remember that they’ve got to obey the law when they enforce the law, especially when we pay them.

Aloha! We want to have a screening in Hawaii! Are you there?

We did not specifically follow the lives of people who had been deported. I have seen some films that address that. When we were outlining the characters that we wanted to include we thought about following some young people back to lands they were deported to – we certainly know of these stories. One young man whose story we heard about is helping in an orphanage in Tijuana as he waits in limbo for help. He knows no one in Mexico.

we have rule 40 in los angeles which is a big bone of immigration contention…it prevents law enforcement officers form questioning immigration status during an arrest

Except, for my Drivers License, I’m undocumented.

After I obtained my passport, 9 years ago, my wife filed my birth certificate and social security card away.

Neither of us know where that away place is. There away!

The current projects that we and El Grupo Juvenil (the “Papers” Youth Crew) are working on are really centered around two things:

1. distribution/discussions of the film. .we promote the film and it’s an important opportunity for youth to go and listen to people’s responses (they are surprised by how many allies there are out there. I was too), answer questions and tell people what they can do locally and nationally once they see the film and are inspired (and the film, while emotional and educational, seems to leave people inspired, wanting to do something).

2. The second focus is equally exciting. A number of youth (ages 18-20) who have worked on the project struggled a lot themselves in middle school and high school (with all the struggles that face youth, whether documented or not, and sometimes adding the struggles of being undocumented). . and they’ve now begun designing and facilitating workshops with middle and high schoolers about immigration but more often about how to turn negative leadership into positive leadership and how to identify your dreams and find the motivation to graduate from high school and even go to college.

This is really exciting. To ALREADY see our mentees have mentees themselves!

Boulder screening tomorrow night I believe. There was a screening in Denver, but would be happy to come back if someone wants to host a screening.

Thx

Yes, I’ve heard many people say “We didn’t cross the border, the border crossed us.” Mexico extended all the way to Oregon.

It does drive me nuts when people are completely ahistorical. I do think there was a fair amount of trespassing starting in 1492!

How do you think we can encourage people to calmly discuss this issue?

Hilo’s Palace Theater is a nice venue…! ;-)

I have to be honest that I’m on the fence on this subject. On the one hand, there is unnecessary suffering by those undocumented kids, students who are here because of circumstances beyond their (infant / passed) control who only know the US as their home country. Then there is also uncontrolled abuse and this ‘broad pity wand’ excusing all undocumented students indiscriminantly. Which raises then questions of where the ‘pity’ limits are? Age? Furry appearance?

Finally, and here is my personal reflection, I’m a legal immigrant myself, and have been through the usual USCIS/DHS very long (years), costly (think 4 digits+++) and agonizing procedures. Which (fair or not) makes me a little wary on any ‘unrestricted pardon / handout’ emotion driven argument re illegal/undocumented.

We are allies to the immigrant movement who made a movie about undocumented youth and their allies and believe that it is not only an targeted group who should have to stand up for themselves. . so we encourage allies to make sure the immigrant youth and adults around them know they care as you do. . I have seen how amazing it is for the youth we’ve met to see allies step up. . people they never knew were there for them.

I don’t really see how racial profiling can be avoided when people of color are asked about their status while white people are not.

My Dad crossed the Rio Grande on the back of a horse in the middle of the night with other members of his family in 1935. His family is from the Ukraine. Of course, during the Red Scare they were ordered deported because the government thought they were communists…

How do you think we can encourage people to calmly discuss this issue?

Food and Art. Seriously.

I’ve made more converts by introducing non-TexMex Mexican cuisine to people. And then patiently explaining to them that all the cheese and dairy was introduced by the Swiss (Suiza) during Napoleanic rule. (Americans flip out a bit when I explain that Mexico was once a French colonial posession.)

Chocolate is a whole ‘nother story, and lemme tell you when you explain that No Mexico = No Chocolate, you win. A lot!

And then the Art. I have some collectibles, but the best one is a baby Jaguar Olmec head, from about 900 CE. It’s just beautiful, serene.

The particular non-Tex cuisine and that Art are BEFORE Europe was out of the Dark Ages. That sort of thing has clicked, at least with a few people I know.

Yes, I’ve heard many people say “We didn’t cross the border, the border crossed us.” Mexico extended all the way to Oregon.

“We didn’t land on Plymouth Rock, Plymouth Rock landed on US!”

–Malcolm X

How do you think we can encourage people to calmly discuss this issue?

When they complain about ILLEGAL immigration, I like to direct their attention to LEGAL immigration, such as the H1-B visa program which was devised by the National Science Foundation to import technical labor from South Asia in order to drive down US computer science salaries.

Like many American techies, I’m about to run out of unemployment as there are temporary immigrant workers here legally on visas earning 2/3 of my last salary, yet people get riled up on immigration about folks from Latin America here without papers, who wash dishes to keep their hamburgers priced under $10?

Exactly, on immigration raids at contrustion sites, the white guys (often undocumented/illegal) from Canada, Ireland and Europe get overlooked while the darker skined workers have ot show papers.

Great! Want to work on it? I think we have some other interested folks in Hawaii. Screenings are happening all over the country. It is really grassroots – there is even going to be a showing at the tip of the Aleutian Islands in Unalaska! (Dutch Harbor).

Yes, yes, yes! Wonderful!! Food and art are reasons to live anyway!

I respect your concerns. This is a complex topic. There are a few things that come to my mind:

1. For these youth (with rare exceptions), currently there is no path and no way to earn a path and for many that’s what they are asking. . not a hand-out but an opportunity to earn a path. So, for instance, the DREAM Act would require that they demonstrate a comittment/contribution to the country through two years of college or two years of military service and there are a number of requirements for eligibility beyond that. Then, they have temporary residence for six years at which time they could apply for citizenship.

2. I think pity isn’t the approach I prefer. There are many interesting arguments in favor of legalization for these youth that include the fact that since the Supreme Court has ruled that all children, regardless of citizenship status, must receive k-12 education, we have already invested in these youth for almost 18 years in many cases and even in economic terms, it is wasteful (of financial and human capital) to lose this talent at 18.

Some thoughts. .

We really need to start a cultural standard that anyone who is merely monolingual is automatically perceived as less intelligent.

Producer’s final note: Thanks so much for your interest and intelligent conversation. To stay tuned, join our Facebook page and Subscribe to our website:

Website: http://www.papersthemovie.com
FB: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Papers/48618440950?ref=ts

Thanks to all of you for your thoughts and many thanks to Beverly and Lisa for organizing this salon. Please feel free to write us at http://www.papersthemovie.com Thanks!!

Anne, Rebecca, thank you both much, and please thank El Grupo Juvenil for us as well, for making papers and giving a face to the issue, for showing that kids are kids and if they want to go to college they should have the option.

Support for that statement? I’m for helping thses kids get educated fully, but I also suspect that the cost of educating from K-12 far outweighs the taxes their undocumented parents pay. I may be wrong, but I think it’s worth knowing.

I think there are good points to be made for DREAMS. However, I think it should also contain a requirement to establish to a reasonable extent hardship for the applicant. (Similar say as to family members of certain visa/immigrant situations where the primary spouse/father dies and a hardship clause/waiver is required)

Interesting reading: the Plyler v. Doe decision that requires k-12 ed for all, very much based on Brown vs. Board of Ed. Majority opinion is beautiful.

I think reasonable extent hardship is already covered by a youth being deported to a country he or she can’t remember, not knowing anyone there, not being able to speak the language fluently. .

For more information on “Papers” go to our website http://www.papersthemovie.com. Thanks to all of you for your interesting thoughts. I hope that the national conversation can continue to be this rational.

First, let me state that I have not seen this film. This is a difficult issue with no clear cut answers. I consider myself very liberal politically and my faith informs me that we are our brother’s keeper. On the other hand, I do believe that the law must apply to everyone. I lived for years on the coast just north of San Diego in a lovely neighborhood. During that time the area had a large population of undocumented residents and transients. Although the local public school was only blocks from our home, you could not allow your children to walk to school because of the young men on the corners (sometimes under the influence) that would bother the children even in the morning hours as they waited for possible work. They did drive cars regardless of the law and drove uninsured. We were hit by one of these drivers and our insurance rates were raised as a result even though we were not at fault. I know some Americans drive uninsured, but this is a real problem in Southern California. When these people do get work, they are often exploited by the employer and have no recourse. Hospitals in Southern California began closing emergency rooms in the 90s because of the financial strain of providing care to undocumented workers that could not pay for care. There are many humanitarian reasons to reach out to these people and pave the way for them in this country. There are also reasons to enforce our existing laws for the American citizens that are struggling to live by the rules and the law everyday. In the San Diego area when your children’s school is over crowded, and education suffers because some kids don’t speak the language or are simply behind, when the local ER is no longer open, when you worry about driving the highways, when your kids can’t walk to school or ride their bikes in the neighbood because of transients, it is not always easy to be supportive of the liberalism you want to believe in. There is no either/or answer to immigration except to establish a system of legal immigration. It is, however, not fair or just to ask Americans to subsidize those that are here illegally in areas of healthcare or education when they struggling to provide for their own families.

Boulder was last Saturday, but there’s one in Denver Feb 18. I’ll be there. Thanks, again.

My $.02 worth, partly in answer to xargaw@102: the issue of kids who grew up here and suddenly, at age 18, can’t pursue a normal life is not the same as the issue of amnesty, equity, dual citizenship, immigration generally, or overburdened public services. Somewhat OT, if you’ve been following the CA news, the decline in public services has many causes; a broken political process is more at fault than any subgroup’s burden. The issue of illegal immigration is not the same as the issue of what to do about illegal immigrants who are already here.

Telling a talented and qualified kid he can’t work or continue in school is damaging for the kid, for his/her family, and for the community. They’re not going to play bean-bag to occupy those idle hours. And they’re not going to respect the law, they’re just going to be bitter and discouraged.

Don’t get me started on who’s supposed to toe the legal line, and who gets to break the law with impunity and immunity.

What I want to know is, if we solve the problems of all these illegal immigrants with comprehensive immigration reform, does that mean that we are going to do the same thing again 10-15-20 years down the road to all those who will immigrate here illegally after the new comprehensive reform goes into effect?

Or, must we continue to accept all the people who want to come here to get a better life because they can’t/won’t force their own government to provide a better life in their own country?

These are practical questions, ones which a lot of supporters of “comprehensive immigration reform” don’t want to answer because the reality is unpleasant. Better to just believe in some form of magic fairy dust that will solve the problem.