Whenever we visited Germany, I recall seeing married couples board the trains, usually well-upholstered burghers and their wives in the first class cars. Or we would see nice families in their middle-class autos in the autobahn lane next to our funny maroon Peugeot sedan. These folks were my father’s age, or older (he was born in 1923 and served in the Pacific theatre in WW2). I would always wonder: what did you do during the war?
My father worked alongside some Germans, too, who had very nice families like ours. Socializing in the long summer evenings was sometimes part of his job, and (sort of) part of ours, too. But if the mom and dad were my dad’s age or older, I used to wonder: were these the ‘good Germans’ I had read about in my history books?
I mean, these people didn’t simply appear in Germany during the Marshall Plan, America’s wonderfully generous reconstruction of free markets and political institutions. They must have lived through the second world war, right? What role did they play? Were they soldiers, civilians, students, citizens?
When Germany was doing barbaric things, I asked myself, what were these people doing? When their state was acting in ways since condemned by the civilized world, what did these folks do? Did they know? Did they pretend not to know? Did the benefits of their situation somehow outweigh the risks of objection?
Did they know and not care? Or did they not know? Or did they not want to know? Or did they know now and simply want to forget? Did we all want to forget?
How, I wondered then, could an entire nation go insane and then, afterward, act as if it hadn’t happened? How did that work, exactly?
I think we are about to find out. Right here in America. By ‘looking forward not backward’ we are now Good Americans. We overlook our own country’s torture, kidnapping, child murder, eavesdropping, indefinite detention, and inutterable destruction of the planet. I mean, babies are being born in Fallujah with horrible disfigurements after our depleted uranium and white phosphorus attacks on that city. In Guantanamo, innocent men are housed in a never-land outlaw world, perhaps never to be released. Here at home, phone calls and other communications are monitored by the state. Nothing is private, really. Abroad, war profiteers and mercenaries looted our own treasury and destroyed lives without censure or account. And people in America, some of them citizens (a few, certainly, but isn’t one too many?) have been snatched up and detained in a gulag of unbearable torture and misery.
Should the world survive America’s global predation, our generation — people alive right now — will always be viewed by history as Good Americans. Just as I wondered about the Good Germans in the twentieth century: people who let a great country slide into soul-corrupting evil and who did nothing.
If we accept the pleasant nostrums on offer by the Obama Administration (that America needs to look forward not backward, that we have too many problems on our plate to dwell on the errors of the past, that Americans are not a vindictive people) we will always be viewed by the rest of the world as Good Americans: moral monsters who looked the other way rather than squarely face the evil done in our name.
I used to wonder, decades ago, how those people lived with themselves, if they really knew what happened in their country and they did nothing. We are about to find out for ourselves just how that feels. And, much later, we may discover how it feels to get baffled looks or even puzzled inquiries. In twenty or thirty years, will a teenager from abroad look at you and wonder: what did you do when your country went insane? Did you try to stop it?
And did you let the political leaders who perpetrated evil go free? Without accountability, there is only complicity.



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Yes.
Hiya Mary. A little serious for Late Night, I suppose. But it’s been bugging me lately, and following Siun’s wonderful and heartbreaking posts at 6pm is starting to rub off on me.
teddy! i refuse to be complicit — no matter how many times i am ignored by our leaders. i refuse to be a ‘good american’.
That sums it up incredibly well.
Back when I was in high school, I was an exchange student in Germany, and lived with a family headed by a father who was too young to have served in the German army during WWII but old enough to have been in the Hitler Youth. He and I shared more than a few beers sorting out exactly what you’re talking about.
In six short words, you’ve captured weeks of conversations. Thanks, Teddy.
Teddy!
I am afraid that I am not a Good American (TM). I do not want to forgive and forget. I want tho haul the bastards before the Hague and lay out in detail the horrors they instigated and then I want them locked away from the sight of decent people for the rest of their lives. Then again, nobody has ever confused me with a Good American (TM). Years ago when I was teaching in Native American Studies, I got the student evaluations back from my intro class and about a dozen of them said that I was a racist who hated white people. I told this to several of my colleagues who became quite confused by that.
Applauding, Teddy. What a great post. I hope you will send it to the White House tomorrow.
Hell, Teddy, America’s been ‘looking forward not backward’ for a long damn time now. Decades. If I could I wish I could change that historical perception for your country, but it’s reality-based and only willful misinterpretation can move that mountain.
:(
Delurking to say that I was blown away by your post. I’m not an American, but I’ve lived here for 10 years now and every day I wonder at what point will I take a step away from being a cog in this machine.
Sadly, I think we’re headed in the wrong direction. 58% of Americans want the underwear bomber water boarded? I shudder to think what those percentages would be for lightsticks up the butt, etc. Just like the Good Germans, we’ve been propagandized to the hilt, but just like with the Germans, it’s been disturbingly effective. My greatest fear is that there won’t be anyone to remember much about the Good Americans, once Murdoch and Clear Channel get through with us.
We resist and if we fail, we bear witness.
But Suzanne you are not being ignored; didn’t I read somewhere that Obama now calls you ‘friend?’
papers, bitte!
Me too!
I’ve been protesting and writing letters to congress critters since I learned how to write!
Too bad the Chunnel wasn’t done eh, Teddy…?
Being called friend by Obama is like being called wife by McCain.
don’t get me started about how he used to say my name but now just says i’m a friend…
Why thank you Peterr!
It just shows how much going out of doors can help the writing process, I think. I wrote this entire post, except for those six words, at around noon, then went outside (lovely here today, mid-fifties sunny no wind, sorry everyone!) to the winter farmers market, the independent bookstore, the deli and the local food palace. Somewhere in all that, my topic sentence came to me.
So I put it at the end, a little essayist’s trick.
But, Teddy, what are we to do? We have no leadership. We have lots of really smart people writing blogs and speaking truth on MSNBC and Democracy Now, but we have no leadership to change direction.
We need to DO SOMETHING. Now.
It would be to America’s eternal shame to have to have our war criminals prosecuted in The Hague. Isn’t that the mark of a failed state?
Wow, thanks!
Very good, thoughtful post. One with no easy answers. The kind neocons hate most of all.
Fuck ‘em. They ain’t got near none the brains for the job.
Time to go steal some natural resources closer to home, then. Uppity Canadans!
Great post. I wonder about that, too. I’m 61; people always ask, “Did you go to Vietnam?” I say,”No, I went to Berkeley.” But now, our wars and war crimes are for other people’s oil so we can keep up our insatiable consumerism and “necessary” growth. These wars may not ever end. At least that’s the plan. Just ask Cheney. Ed Abbey said “Growth is the ideology of a cancer cell.”
Shine a light in the darkness every day, then.
We simply must prevail.
The difference in horrors are legion, and the prior had somewhat of the balm of prosecutions. We have none yet. Which begs the question, at what level of horror is acceptable to forgo prosecutions?
love the video teddy
They’re, sadly, not going to be tried in an American venue any time soon…! 8-(
No, it is the triumph of the rule of law. Or founders asserted that we would be a nation of laws and not of men. We have profoundly failed them and that dream.
I think we’d better come up with a better way to resist. It isn’t working, and witnessing seems to not affect the gestalt at all.
Good. LOL
Really? I think it is the only thing that will wake America up? The news media would have to report on it, right?
Actually, so was Vietnam. I was drafted in ’71, but failed the physical so I could continue to protest it at home.
You own most of it already. That was the plus side of ‘Free Trade’ for America…That, and getting to spin time off the clock on NAFTA/GATT challenges until a bunch of compliant stooges could be elected by those Canadian dummies and give you the money back.
;>)
Or Dick Armey.
Someone said something like this:
Kill one person and you are excecuted.
Kill dozens and they put you in a padded room.
Kill millions and nothing at all is done.
Thank you.
This has really been bugging me, and it all welled up this morning.
How will we explain this to our descendants? (Well, I have none, but our cultural descendants, I guess is who I mean.) How can this behavior be anything but willful ignoring of the horrific?
Teddy, I’ve loved many of your posts, but this is, by far, the best you have ever written. *standing and applauding* and thanking you muchly. You hit the bull’s eye whang in the gold.
Bless you Teddy, for a great post. Thanks to Dr. Dick as well.
I’ve just finished listening to The Journey of Crazy Horse (my eyesight is bad so I do audio books, thanks be to God for them!) and was stunned by the poetic beauty of Joseph Marshall’s fabulous recounting of the gentle warrior’s life and times that filled me with rage over what we’d done to Native Americans in that time and world and across the US.
Similar kind of reactions with the slavery issue in 18th-19th century US from the framework of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings in The Hemingses of Monticello by Annette Gordon-Reed.
There is no end to the monstrosities of American arrogance, demonic and pathetic practices of self righteous barbarisms.
I’m so sick of and enraged by the the monstrosity of America and its horrific values. I’m coming to totally despise Obama. My only consolation is that I never looked to him to be saviour.
Blessings, FDL community,
Really! Please do send it.
Great post, Teddy.
American greatness was always concurrent with extraordinary acts of cruelty. Near genocide of an indigenous people, enslavement of another. Even in the “just” wars we were also responsible for terrible acts of barbarism, whether they were ever officially designated war crimes or not. Including but by no means limited to, the voluntary incineration of civilian populations in Dresden and Tokyo (and elsewhere) and of course Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
And no, we should not stand idly by. At the very least we must record and bear witness to the crimes being committed in our name.
It is ignored so it can be done again. Money, doncha know.
Laura…! Hauoli Makahiki Hou…! Belatedly even…! ;-)
Geez, don’t tell me I have to strip for a bunch of bikers (again).
I am reading about the human experimentations conducted by a Japanese general (in a book about Frank Olson’s death, The Terrible Mistake, Book Salon on ). Apparently, the general simply lied to interrogators and was clever in hiding and destroying most evidence of his deeds. But the extent of the effort was discovered and uncovered by an extraordinary interrogator investigator, shortly after the Japanese general was given immunity for all his crimes.
The American investigator blew his brains out in a Japanese hotel room after all was revealed. The general was never punished.
Thanks for your kind words. There are times when to be silent is the greatest treason of all.
Our allies cannot intervene to begin international war crimes tribunals until our own system has failed. Every state must be given the opportunity to correct its behavior, and punish those responsible. If things have moved to The Hague, it’s because Americans have abdicated our responsibility to account for our own actions.
It’s a horror. It may need to happen, finally, but it is the end of American moral authority anywhere in the world once it does.
I agree.
link
Seconded.
*waving* best of new years to you and yours, CT.
(and same to all you all, too!)
Effectively.
Even better, we now have high speed communications and the internet. Ain’t it grand?
Not only am I not complicit, I have actively fought tooth and nail against what has mirrored what happened in Germany and been labeled a traitor.
So be it. I can handle the name calling.
Put the Bush administration on the docket where they belong and open the flood gates of information. We shall see who the traitors are, like I don’t already know, they are on television every fucking week trying to revise history before our very eyes.
I can wait.
True. Yeah, I was drafted right off Telegraph Ave in 69. I told them, Give me a weapon. I know who the enemy is.” My military career lasted about two hours.
It’s just like banking!
If you owe the bank a million dollars and can’t pay, you are in big trouble. Your bank owns you.
If you own the bank a billion dollars and can’t pay, the bank’s in big trouble. You own your bank.
I recall seeing an episode of Frontline a few years back which claimed the two Salvadoran generals now known to have ordered the rape and murder of a group of nuns in the ’70s are retired and living in Florida.
That means a great deal coming from you, Laura.
Thank you.
Happy New Year to you, Laura!
I used to wonder those things about the Germans, too, Teddy. Now, I’m afraid I know all too well.
Hey! Laura! How is Marin?
The more I learn about American history, the more the term “American exceptionalism” has come to mean something else entirely than what’s intended. Are we really such a blasted place? Perhaps we are.
Yeah, that Group W bench is really a lot more comfy than it looks.
Sonoma County is dry and sunny. How’s by you?
OMG that is horrifying.
Book Salon on 1/23
We are good. My daughter is living on Pepper Rd in Petaluma now. Beautiful.
your own version of arlo’s i wanna kill
Teddy,
What did your parents say about anything? Did you ever voice your thoughts to them?
Waiting may be just the ticket, I’m afraid.
At some point, there’s going to be a reckoning. I just don’t think I want it done at the same time as our Debtor Nation trial in Beijing.
Thank you Teddy – important post.
I started getting these looks in 2004 in Europe. Told them I was a Democrat, apparently that wasn’t enough.
Me too, eg.
I LOVE Pepper Rd. I used to live near there, thousands of years ago, when I was an undergrad. Please let me know when you’re going to be in town…I would love to meet you face to face!
We will all be claiming to be Canadian.
Thank you,Teddy, for posting this. I refuse to be complicit, though I don’t always know what to do but speak out wherever/whenever I can. A NOVA special tonight was about failed NSA efforts….it was disgusting … I almost couldn’t get through it……it felt a lot like “The Fix is In” — the utter stupidity leading up to 9/11. Thanks for opening up for discussion this troubling topic of complicity.
They also mentioned how the Carter admin was making good progress in their investigation and the Reagan admin promptly shut down the inquiry. Of course they also propped up a Salvadoran dictator, as well as arming and training his right-wing death squads who were eventually responsible for murdering tens of thousands (IIRC) of Salvadoran civilians.
All for a good cause, though. If not for the bold actions of the Reagan/Bush Junta we might all be speaking Nicaraguan now…
Great post! I am all behind prosecuting all our domestic criminals. Unfortunately, our laws don’t seem to apply the same to the elite. Look in the mirror, America. We really do resemble “the Great Satan” as we have been called.
Sure. Probably not for a month or so. Sara is on a horse boarding ranch owned by a winery heir. She is renting the house with her boyfriend type person.
Wow TP, this really hit home.
Trying to escape my trailer park Anglo side, I spent some time in Europe, winning a piano scholarship, studying primarily in Salzburg, but running around Europe in ’81-’82, which was transformative for me also.
We (the troup from the Mozarteum, Salzburg) were scheduled to pass Checkpoint Charlie in Berlin, June 1982. There was a singer, from Argentina, who held our passing up. (Britain and Argentina were at war in the Falklands).
We sat at the gate for quite some time before we knew what the problem was. The Oesterzollbeamten were finally forthcoming “Dump the Argentine, and proceed.”
The bus driver proclaimed the verdict, our “Auntie” (“Tante” as I called her, turned it around as a question to us; “Shall we leave Olivia here, and proceed? Charles, that would also deprive you of your Soprano (Charles was her accompanist) and your opportunity to play.”
There was an uncomfortable silence for about 30 seconds as it dawned on all of us what that meant. Lights went on in all our minds.
No! We all play, or none play!
This was also uncomfortable for the Zollbeamter. It took another 30 minutes for the proper procedure/instructions to turn our bus around.
During that time we all (students) sweated a bit.
Scrambled for accomodations in West Berlin; but that was Auntie’s job. Meanwhile, the rest of us drank beer/wine and Olivia couldn’t pay for a drink. It was solidarity all the way.
That checkpoint, that wall, that shitty exclusion of Olivia, based on an assumed affiliation and funky politics none of us cared about, changed me forever.
I did not change into a war/right winger.
I changed into a Global Citizen right then and there. I’m not talking about these freaks who talk about One World Government and Tri-Lateralists and stuff. I’m talking about, “Hey, if it’s not right, HERE, it’s not right THERE!” But I had the benefit of happening to me THERE.
And I have fought against it HERE ever since.
Which is also a bit ironic; my whole maternal side is German and I’m fluent.
So to end this long comment, the “Good German” analogy has never bothered me. It’s only ever informed me.
Schweigen oder Untätigkeit ist Komplizenschaft
My dad said it wasn’t polite to ask questions of people about those things. I really wanted firsthand information, but he said he wouldn’t be prudent. Probably actually used those words, too. Looking back on our sojourn there, I realize his work was incredibly important (always secret, of course) and that our parents gave us an amazing amount of freedom, considering that.
He and I did have a huge fight over my plans to visit Berlin. He said it simply could not happen, as his work clearances would make us targets. That’s the first time I started to get a glimpse inside the nature of what he did, for whom, and at what level.
But, politeness was really important to my parents, and to everyone posted in Brussels. It’s a diplomatic stronghold — manners are all.
I was also in Europe in 2004 and I felt at that time that most folks (certainly not all!) felt hateful toward the Bush Regime but somewhat tolerant of American citizens….they actually seemed to feel kind of sorry for us. We’ll be back in Italy in June, and I’m curious to see how treatment will be then.
Young people have been stitching maple leafs on their backpacks since the invasion of Iraq, when headed to Europe.
Excellent post, Teddy. You have written what I (and others) have been thinking. You put it to words in an effective and passionate way.
On leaders: Teddy is a leader. Jane is a bigtime leader. Marcy – leader.
Its hard work to go against the grain – even when the truth is on your side.
Again, my rant when Reagan died: “Good riddance to bad rubbish.”
Like the video points out, as long as we continually need more, we share the guilt. This computer I’m fooling with is full of tin smelted from cassiterite mined by slaves in Africa.
*heh* I do have a Canadian Birth Certificate, do you…? ;-)
I am not sure that we are really all that different from anyone else in regard. Indeed, I am certain we are not. The difference is that we pretend that we are. The British, French, and Spanish have all been complicit in genocide during the colonial period. I do not even want to think about the Russian pogroms or life under Stalin. As much as Israel bitches and moans about Palestinian terrorism, the state of Israel was born of Jewish terrorism, much of it directed against the Palestinians, along with the British. Did you know that Irgun invented the car bomb?
I’ll vouch for y’all, for what’s it’s worth…’Bunch of good eggs’.
;>)
You are far more polite than I was.
There is the story of the man who stood before the White House each night holding a candle to protest the Vietnam War. A guard came over to him one night and asked why he did it since it really made no difference. The man is said to have replied. It makes a difference to me.
In fact with all the magnificent trials of Nuremberg and more or less appropriate punishment of Nazi doctors who were war crimes perpetrators. — The US/world chose to not prosecute a significant portion of the Japanese in return for access to the data derived from the torture of Allied POWs including US.
The Hastings Institute published quite a study documenting this. I will have to search for the link as it was sometime ago.
Wow, Teddy, that is just amazing. Wow, I’m overwhelmed by your answer, and I’ve been around!!!
Well, DrDick,
I was at work…heh, heh.
Us or them.
They have been whipping on us like rented mules for thirty years but I do believe that are going to be directly behind when they find out just how hard a Missouri mule can kick.In no small bit will this and other places like it have a large part on a huge hoof print to the shin bone of those that seek to divide and conquer.
Without accountability, there is only complicity.
How can we force a political will for accountability? I would LOVE to see justice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH9rC0MaBJc
And manners ARE all, gosh we learned that living in Paris.
WE also used a great deal of the data collected by the Nazi’s (like the experiments conducted by Dr. Mengele and others). It ultimately led to the development of the federal protocols for research on human subjects.
Thanks for your profound and powerful post, Teddy.
Teddy, just damn. I mean.
k, just had to say that, back to reading comments
Sorry, that Youtube doesn’t go with my response, it was in my cache from earlier.
What I meant to say to Teddy, you really had a very, very special life in Europe, and with your parents.
The essence of “American exceptionalism”; We’ll just ignore the genocide we laid on the natives here. That was centuries ago; now we need to look forward. Damn, where is my whiskey?
The best thing that could happen to our country would be for all the war criminals to be tried at the Hague. Including the many many in MSM that prodded and goaded us into a war based on a lie.
We are a failed state. It started in 2000 with a stolen election.Obama happened to get enough votes to be president. I do not believe he has any authority.
Look at the two airline bombers – ____ Carrilles and Orlando Bosch. They lived as free men to ripe old ages because the were right wingers and Bush friends.
One or both of them blew up an airliner full of teenage Cuban students.
How are we doing on the whistleblower protections under Obama.
About 20 years ago I was fortunate enough to have a conversation with a friend’s father, who had immigrated from Germany after the war. He’d been in the Hitler Youth prior to being conscripted into the armed forces.
He didn’t get into specifics and I didn’t push him too hard, sensing his reluctance. What I recall best is that he bore no ill will toward the U.S. (or he probably would not have chosen to to begin a new life here), who he said primarily bombed military targets, mostly at night which was somewhat less dangerous for their pilots. He still had a grudge against the Brits who he claimed preferred civilian targets during the day when people were out and about their business, so as to maximize the number of casualties.
Of course these observations were not entirely accurate and greatly simplified. I think there is some element of truth. The Brits wanted to exact revenge for The Blitz. Having said that, the U.S. also killed a lot of civilians.
FYI upon discovering that the medical establishment in Germany had the highest representation in the Nazi Party, a few years ago I did a rather extensive study with a focus on that aspect. It is most disturbing. In fact I would say that had it not been for the enabling by the doctors it is possible Hitler could not have pulled the whole thing off.
As a physician I recognize the facts with immense sadness and yes collective guilt. I will try to find time to do a diary if anyone is interested.
As to where the US is now I personally believe we are already living under an authoritarian central government with all the precedent and legal framework in place to do all that the Nazis did. In my view it will only take a trigger of domestic unrest to unleash it.
They way you led into the points is very effective- I did a study abroad language program in 1977 in three parts of Germany. People can smell the burning flesh. And I asked why they did not stand up. Some may have others knew the repercussuins. There was a failed attempt against Hitler by some top generals.Rastenburg, East Prussia. 5,000 were executed and the resistance movement was crushed, Here the fascist state is not as advanced and we do not have that excuse.
You wrote this very well. It may become a classic and should be translated in all languages. At first they cane for…
Nice piece to address an issue that has been lost in the political din. They will keep up the killing until they are not funded. Their excuse is “The Bad Guys”.
Not to mention our nuclear and space programs were directly affected by our getting a great deal of German scientists out of country and sticking them in Texas while we spent millions of dollars carrying out their experiments. The moon landing was a direct result of that.
I am enjoying some wonderful homemade turkey soup right now, but please carry on — and thank you for your wonderful and gracious comments.
Oh, also: Happy New Year!
Hugh’s list the new one for openers.
We were still actively killing Indians into the early 20th century and the genocide continues in more subtle ways to the present. Did you know that Native women were subjected to involuntary sterilization into the 1970s? That the poorest places in America are Indian reservations? That Native Americans have the lowest life expectancy and highest infant mortality of any group in the US? And it is not just Indians, the Tuskegee experiment did not end until 1972.
HNY, Teddy.
Thanks, kirk.
‘Evening, all-
The thing is, I don’t believe Americans are “exceptional”, and that’s the problem. America was exceptionally rich, powerful, influential, positioned, blessed….and wound up in the hands of plain old ordinary people- mean, greedy, ruthless, venal, vindictive-like people always and everywhere, when given power. After 1945, someone said, “everything has changed, except our way of thinking”. So true. We have done terrible things, made more terrible by our outsized capability, and completely in character with unexceptional people of all times.
I wish for exceptionalism. Along with constant resistance.
Great post Teddy, enjoy your soup.
We deliberately engaged in terrorism with the fire bombings of Dresden and Tokyo, as well as both atomic bombs (Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not primarily military targets).
Yes, Hugh is doing a terrific job.
Yes I am quite aware. And in fact the doctors were convicted of doing human research with out permission — never for the quality of the atrocities. The psychiatrists in the 70s did renounce the use of Mengle’s twin studies and the anatomists uncovered the source of one of the more common anatomy texts as Nazi.
Somehow however it seems most scurrilous that the US used that as a bargaining chip, and not just as information incidental to crimes……
Curiously, the US did prosecute Japanese who engaged in waterboarding of American POWs.
Thank you and bigbrother.
I know it’s not well known, but many of us have never forgiven what was done to the original inhabitants. My people came to this country in the late 1800′s and weren’t involved in most of the genocides, but we also never forgot that our blessings were on the backs of others.
So there were a bunch of predictably traumatized germans, totally susceptible to cults of personality, propaganda, a amplified sense of self and common purpose.
None of that shit around her to bother us, as it’s all already baked into the cake. The shit will hit the fan when the mythology starts unraveling on capitalism, – so, soon….
I noted those in my comment @ 39. Just noteworthy tips of enormous icebergs, unfortunately.
Actually I think you will find it was the US who did daylight bombing and the Brits at night.
Thank you Teddy for your post, of which I should have prefaced my remarks. Enjoy your turkey soup, and keep on, well, keeping on!
Grosses bises!
You know, in my opinion, sometimes you provide a useful commentary, sometimes you don’t.
And your question to me is really irritating without further context.
At that checkpoint, where there was machine guns and barbwire and stuff, we said “Unh unh. We will skip the performances, that we longed to do in East Berlin, Hamgurg and (ultimately) Prague. Take your authoritarian bullshit, as well as your next political problem for denying peaceful musicians the opportunity to play beautiful music that people love, and stuff it up your gunsights.”
So if you’ve got some whistle to blow, blow it. your concience demands it, whether there’s a shield law or not. I would if I was in that position.
Has nothing to do with Obama, of whom I’m no huge defender, and has everything to do with your conscience.
Thank-you. Your efforts serve as an inspiration.
Yeah, and uranium mining, refining,dumping, all on Indian land.
I believe by the final year of the war with the Luftwaffe destroyed the U.S. and Brits were pretty much bombing night and day.
In retrospect I think my friends dad may have been reciting a list of often repeated talking points for an American audience which neither acknowledged barbarism by his birth country or attributed acts of barbarism to his adopted country.
Time for me to toddle off. I have to go back to work tomorrow, cold and all. Should make my three hour lecture all that much more delightful. Take care all.
Yeah, I guess we all gotta own it. I don’t want to be part of the “Evil Empire.”
i referred to the last line of your post , for chris sake!
Manners cover a multitude of sins.
That’s a bit of a a nit pick that covers only a small percentage of the raids.
g’nite dr dick — enjoy corrupting young minds
And you know the whole reason for the French/American/Brit rift in modern times is that we destroyed the entirety of the French Naval fleet moored in the Mediterranean port of Oran.
Vichy, but vital to French colonial interests which disintegrated after WWII since the French didn’t have a force to police those interests.
Nighters.
Goodnite, DrDick,
I have to work a full week too! And just like that, the holidays are over. Happy new semester!
I hadn’t seen that, Christine. Thanks! Makes me remember why I supported Hillary for so long. That was times ten anything Obama has ever said in terms of taking it ON.
The bottom line is, the reasons the Democrats will never fully investigate the war crimes of the Bush administration is that too many of them are implicated in those actions. Every member of the United States Senate except Feingold voted for the Patriot Act. It’s not clear what House and Intelligence Committee members like Jane Harman and Diane Feinstein said in response to intelligence briefings that laid out the administrations torture (e.g. “interrogation”) program, but it’s clear that in the atmosphere of terrified paranoia after 9/11, neither of them called the Republicans on committing a war crime, and at least the rumors suggest that they were actively complicit in the program. Sure, they couldn’t have leaked classified documents to the press, but they could have done something, and it’s pretty clear they did nothing.
The truth is, if real war crimes prosecutions started, Republicans would be able to say that Democratic intelligence officers should be investigated as well. When both political parties line up on the same side on an issue, there is rarely accountability.
Rage and fear.
It is really disingenuous to judge what other people do or do not do in sets of circumstances you yourself are not intimately privy to.
There are any number of contexts in which we might feel outraged at the terrible things done to others. But what would we have to risk or sacrifice to change it?
Suppose you are walking in the park and see a dozen thugs beating someone. You feel enraged at them but if you intervene you might be beaten too. You might even be killed. Or suppose you are with your young child when you stumble upon it?
We should always encourage others to be brave in the face of human exploitation, oppression, suffering. We should try to be as brave as we are able to be in turn.
Yet regarding many situations in which righteous indignation and great peril collide we must acknolwedge they are seen from points of view we can’t really grasp fully unless it is our own.
And even then we can be drawn and quartered by conflicting emotional impulses.
And so did I.
Silence IS complicity, and there’s no shield law for conscience. You either have one or you don’t, and it doesn’t matter what admin is in power.
Well, waterboarding. That used to be torture.
Well, most of the nighttime carpet bombing of civilians in Germany was British, while the US precision-bombed bottleneck targets during the day. Round the clock…however, in Japan we used British tactics against the cities, with LeMay ordering the first low-level all-incendiary raid against Tokyo shortly after the British raid on Dresden.
Plenty of carpet bombing to go around for everyone.
All for naught, as Vietnam didn’t turn out to be quite the tourist destination we’d hoped for.
Hey Loo Hoo!
I didn’t mean to put it in that comment — it was left today from sending to MrCE, our reproduction rights activist (did you know that he is?). I sent it to him just today. She is WONDERFUL in this delivery.
The intelligence “oversight” system is well and surely broken if war crimes can’t be disclosed prior to their commission.
and who are you to decide about the usefulness of a post or comment? Care to reference yourself on this thread for examples of your utility?
you made a comment I referred it to today’s policy issues, – that’s the thread head, no?: Sunday Late Night: Good Americans
I recall reading a quote by LeMay, who when asked if firebombing civilian targets was immoral said something to the effect of, “Of course, all war is immoral.” His only regret however was that he’d lacked the resources to target every population center on the island.
Naughty!
But true, just goes to show that there is NO REASON FOR MASS KILLING/DISTRUCTION.
Ever.
There just isn’t One Good Reason.
But, georgewalton, that’s my point: it is now our own. What shall we do?
Take care, night Dr. Dick.
Bravo Teddy!
*gentle reminder*
disagree with the message but do not attack the messenger
And that’s the reason we are there. Actually the Bush administration was consciously active in manipulating Democratic complicity. They meant what they said. They wanted to set it up so that it could not be reversed by incoming administrations. Hannah Arendt writes clearly on this topic. And in fact on a more mundane level Hitler made the ordinary German believe they were complicit. That is why so many didn’t speak.
Long ago I had faint hope Obama would opt for justice. Silly me.
At least Captain Renault came out all right. He and Rick were just good friends you know, at least, that was their story.
On that happy note I bid you all adieu.
Write a diary.
That post is worth waiting for. What happened to the Hippocratic oath?
Nite rat.
g’nite rat
Thank you, dear. Hope you feel better, and soon!
You know, he still could.
LeMay was our version of Arthur Harris, head of Bomber Command:
“Tell me one operation in war that is moral. Sticking a bayonet in a man’s belly, is that moral?…there are many who say bombing can never win a war. Well, my answer to that is it has never been tried yet, and we shall see.”
Goodnight, Dr. Dick.
Take the answer I gave; Blow a whistle if you got one.
The rest, yes is just merely my opinion. Some comments you make I find useful, others I find you to be divisive/vituperative.
If you find the same opinion about my offerings, I wouldn’t be surprised.
‘night, ratfood!
Yes, he still could.
Altho, I agree with much of that, I do disagree on some, Rockefeller did write a letter about his objections to FISA… Secured it in a safe and then later revealed it… ‘Fail’…! Russ Feingold objected vehemently early on and was gagged… ‘Fail’…!
But, both attended the same original Briefs… Same net result… either way ‘We the People’ were screwed…! 8-(
i consider it our job to push him from the left to make him do so.
Yes, indeed!
The serious answer is that Hitler and his ideologues convinced them there was a higher cause than the welfare of the individual patient. That cause was racial purity. Or as we called it in the US eugenics. As you know they began with sterilization and euthanasia of the disabled, then came up withe the brilliant notion that the Jews are a disease of the race.
Read James Glass “Life Unworthy of Life.”
I will do a diary. I must go to bed now./
I wonder, though, if there are other hand-written letters in other safes in Washington, and what those letters might say should there actually, you know, be reason to reveal them. Clearly, JayRock’s revelation accomplished very little.
Geneva Conventions, we’re signers.
Maybe I am reading you wrong. What did you mean by your comment? Specifically this part:
Thanks!
I haven’t had a call from any Dems in months — have you?
g’nite talkingstick
And engage as many others to push him from all sides.
Conservatives, principled ones, are also opposed to war crimes.
they don’t have my cell number and my landline was disconnected when i moved
Tim Kaine appear to have the DNC running silent.
Nite TS
…i consider it our
jobduty to push him from the left to make him do so.Fixed…! ;-)
indeed teddy — certain wrongs are wrong no matter which side of the aisle one is on.
thanks ct
Like Darth’s Man-sized safe… perchance…? ‘Course those contents have long since been shredded…! ;-)
And where IS that safe?
My point though is to disengage “I” from “we”. Each of us individually, embedded in our own unique sets of circumstantial parameters, will be confronted with those who seek to do us harm from different vantage points.
And to the extent that we are unable to effectively create and sustain a united front to fight them together we have to allow for those who are not able to risk or sacrifice as much as we might be able to.
I can’t tell you what to do. Nor can I judge what you choose not to do. I can only hope that together with others we are able to come up with a strategy whereby working together we can stop them.
There may well have been any number of Germans who despised what the Nazis [and many of their neighbors] embraced in fascism. But who am I to judge their reaction to this? If they felt opem rebellion would doom them and their loved ones—were they morally contemptible? No, I don’t have the right to assert that they were. What would I have done if resistance resulted in the death of myself, my family, my friends or my loved ones?
You know, Teddy, what I’d like to see is a well written “I Will Not Be Complicit” document that I could sign and be a part of something delivered to a President who is complicit in the cover-up of war crimes. A President who will go along to get along….but who needs, terribly, to know that his ‘subjects’ will not be complicit. That’s all.
An undisclosed bunker, where else…? D’uh…! ;-)
http://kalman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/31/by-george/?emc=eta1
oooo that’s wonderful ce
Fun, huh?
I know it was an accident. A happy accident!
I didn’t know Mr. CE was involved in reproductive rights. Good for him. Hurray!
Teddy, good post. I was stationed in Germany 1961-1963; my ambulance driver had been the gunner on a German tank. He had 98 kills on the Russian front, only got 3 American tanks in the Ardennes. He was downright apologetic. Not all Germans were ashamed.
About the first thing I figured out was that Americans would have no problem behaving the same way. We might have a little recruiting problem for the SS guards on a Jew camp, but no problem for SS guards on a camp of people of color.
While the crimes of Dead-eye-Dick and Don and Dubya pale in comparison to those of the Third Reich, we had pretty much the same reaction; even though we claim to be different and could, and should, have raised a howl of indignation. We did nothing worthwhile. We’re conditioned to letting our media help the just cause. Millions protested in the streets against the invasion of Iraq, but the MSM chose to ignore it. Took us by surprise. At which point we went home to mull it over.
We’re not just no better than Germans, we’re no smarter.
May we be better prepared for Sarah Palin when she ascends to the throne of
Archbishop of America, President of the United States, Defender of the faith, and Destroyer of Infidels. Amen.
That’s why I love him.
Settle it down, here, fellas.
I presented an example: the incident in the park.
My point is only to suggest it is not reasonable [or moral] to reduce this down to The Right Thing To Do versus The Wrong Thing To Do. To hold others responsible for not stopping something we ourselves are only considering abstractly is easy enough, right?
In fact, each and everyone of us confronts man’s inhumanity to man from a circumstantial context no other can really understand. It’s like that classic scene from the movie Julia in which Julia asks Lillian to risk her life in the srtuggle against the Nazis.
What if Lillian was unable to do it? Would you hold her in contempt? Would you have risked it? It’s easy enough to say yes or no when the task is just hypothetical in an exchange like this. But when we are confronted with the actual existential peril each of us is different. And up to a point that has to be respected.
But no one is able to say definitively where that point is.
Well, that’s a really good idea.
Well, I’m not actually judging anyone. Certainly not anyone except myself. And yet I wonder why I have not done more.
Excellent strategy. Ask it be posted on the White House website and in media for a plebesite. How does Americana feel being a part of crimes against humanity.
Great post Teddy great effort it says a lot of good about you as well as the issue od man’s inhumanity to man. Heminingway would have toasted you. He used John Donne’s poem in for whom the bells toll…they toll for thee.
Back in the fray here:
Unable, is one thing.
Unwilling is another.
Oftentimes we’ll, strike that, let me say I am unwilling to get into a brawl, rather than unable. Why?
Because one decides on the value to oneself.
If I think “I can’t win” then I won’t fight. If I think I have a chance of winning, I’ll fight. If I think “I simply must fight, regardless of the chances of winning” then that is a value that is supreme to me.
On the existential front, those are the ones that are supreme. To me, it is only then, that if you CAN’T fight, well you can’t.
It’s when you can but you’re unwilling that the “Good American” label applies.
Very well put.
I’d like to see someone who is a good writer put together such a document without snark, without rancor. I was so impressed by Teddy’s early recognition of the fact that “good” people looked the other way in Germany, and that, yes, “good” people” in the USA are looking the other way. I don’t want to be amongst those “good” people, but I feel so impotent…..commenting on blogs just isn’t doing it for me, but I don’t know what else to do. I wonder if a couple million just-citizens saying “I Won’t Be Complicit” would have some impact.
After nearly 25 years deeply embedded in radical political organizations, I crashed and burned in the Reagan years. And then for the next 20 odd years I was not politically active at all. It’s only been in the last couple of years I have begun poking around again in “the news”.
But how do I even begin to explain that to others? And I had lots of friends who were really bitter when I plunged into philosophy instead and left the hard work of fighting the reactionaries to them.
That’s probably what provoked my reaction to tour post. Guilt? Yes, no doubt. But a part of me feels no guilt at all. “It’s complicated”. And the more complictated your own life becomes the more you are willing to acknowledge complexity in the lives of others.
Y’know, Teddy, writing self-loathing / low self-esteem, seditious shit like this is only gonna get you a dossier.
;)
Teddy great post!
Thank you, I understand what you mean better now.
I guess my point was this: We do have a functioning society, that is, we are not bombed to smithereens like the Germans were in WW2. Our court system, Congress, etc. is functional. We can prosecute war crimes here, but we choose not to.
Very. Impressive. Post. Teddy Partridge.
Very Impressive.
I know I’m late, no need to respond, but dammit that’s two posts in the last week that really HIT something (even though VERY different topics). Jane did one and now you.
Just so impressive. When words move something inside me (or anyone) like this, it shows the POWER of language. And it’s damned impressive when you get reminded first hand of the age old theme about words being more powerful than the sword.
I’d like to think, or at least I spend a great deal of my time hoping anyway, that words are also more powerful than tanks, bombers, and nuclear weapons.
Because therein lies our only hope.
Guden nacht (I too spent a good deal of time in “West Germany” as it used to be called.) And bravo.
That is a very reasonable way to think about something as inherently labyrinthian as the relationship between human motivation and human social interaction in an enormously complicated world.
It’s just that in all too many “real world” circumstantial contexts [bursting at the seams with ever shifting, ever fluid contingencies] it can become very, very hard to decide whether you can or you cannot do something.
I try to resist judging another by suggesting that if I were in their shoes I would have done otherwise. I’m not in their shoes. The world is just tragic at times.
Thanks!
1) Of most import, great post Teddy P, great comments from you. Simply great, insightful, etc.
2)RaggMopp, great comment.
Whether you or I or any FDL Pups were COMPLICIT by vote or not, for ShrubCo, for 30+ years of increasing facism in our country, we are citizens in the land of wherin some really, really bad shit has come down on ourselves and others since the 13 colonies first united.
It’s hard to find a line as to what any one person feels they could, would, or should do . . . some would die, some would fight and some would avoid being involved from fear of retribution (which is always a valid consideration given MOST humans are not heroes).
I can’t but help be somewhat complicit for my country’s actions as I have not forsaken my life to prevent them.
I’ve been a protester in the 60′s/70′s, I’ve written letters, emails and been critical in public conversations and with friends and family and co workers about right and wrong most of my life.
I’m not guilty of doing nothing, but as a member of this country who has NOT laid down my life for my beliefs as to what I think my country does is wrong, I’m complicit by default.
As a group, we are all somewhat complicit by default . . . we have not laid our lives down so we can’t really proclaim to be any better or any lesser than ‘Good Germans’ . . .
And I fear, given the escalating trend to both corporate and government and military facism in out country, it may COME to laying down our lives for what we believe in . . . for we WILL be attacked for our dissent, if not today, tomorrow, if not tomorrow, sooner than later.
So there’s something to consider, that it’s not getting any better and it will all likely get MUCH worse at home and abroad as American Hegemonism continues its march across the globe.
So Teddy P, that’s why your post is one of the best ever, you dare to even bring out the spectre of our country’s misdeeds and who’s responsible, and how . . . I’m just taking it a step deeper . . .
If we are not part of the solution, and haven’t risked our lives and the lives of our family’s, then what IS our level of culpability in all of this? Are we guilt free because we disagree with it all?
That’s one HUGE phreaking question to ask of each and every one of our selves . . .
Your example, in the park?
If you do nothing, what’s your conscience tell ya?
MY heart tells me you would do nothing.
You either believe in right and wrong and lay it down daily.
Or you cower, sooner, or later. And later, they WILL come for you.
AARRGGH. Preview is your friend. I edited three or four typos then found the one “guden nacht” at the bottom and it says TIME EXPIRED.
Probably better to use preview so that doesn’t happen.
Gute nacht.
Hey. Good idea. At least the world (through the press-or youtube) would know where we stand.
;) your own self *g*
Excellent post.
Without some kind of higher order thought, people and the societies they form will be horrid.
Thanks for all your kind remarks, all.
Bless you for that comment, Kelly Canfield . . . said what I wanted to say, only clearer, much clearer.
Sometimes, regardless of the loss, one MUST fight . . . regardless of one’s ability to even affect the outcome.
Sometimes, ya just have to fight. Even if it’s not for you or yours, but for others.
Yeah, you, him, and a few others in this thread I came late to, have really laid it out in clear and stark terms that anyone could grok.
You guys and gals rawhk on this post of yours, Teddy P . .
Always love your comments Margot, but I’d like to kindly suggest our congress and our courts are pretty much mother fucking non-functional for we the people as they could be at this point without being complete lackeys for the evil that’s killin our democratic republic . . . no harsh on you, just the thought that our courts and Congress are functional for anyone but the corporate facists . . .
Okay, give us some specific examples of what you risked to right a wrong.
George, life is simple.
It’s right or wrong, and how you behave and react and offer yourself to the universe based on right and wrong is all there is in life.
The rest is rhetorical nuance couched in either hiding or trying to disguise your place in the scale of life with respect to what’s right and what’s wrong.
Really, George, it’s that simple. Right. Or wrong.
Where do you stand, in this simplicity . . . that’s really all we are measured by. That’s all they will remember you by. And that’s all one has when one tries to sleep at night . . . right and wrong, where did you stand for the issues of the day . . .
ach. die fledermaus sheiss.
A lifetime of it, daily. That’s all you need to know.
The rest would be pedantic, and the fact that you had to ask, is not only rude but exposes what you really are.
Good luck with your future comments on this blog . . . I’ll try and not bother to bother you again.
wow, interesting.
my grandfather fought in WWI and later during retirement,he and his wife met a German couple through church. They were in a bowling club. one conversation led to another and the men discovered they fought against each other, one man’s unit v the other on the same day. They became fast friends.
Don’t want to walk the talk, eh?
I forgive you.
(((larue)))
Really, the question is one of those that cannot be answered, only experienced. It’s the hero’s journey, will he answer the call?
You have the advantage of having been tested.
WTF are you talking about “Other people”???? We’re talking about US here. You. Me. Our goddamn president, and our shadow president.
This isn’t abstract. WE PULLED INNOCENT PEOPLE OFF THE STREET, TORTURED THEM AND DEPRIVED THEM OF DUE PROCESS – EVEN 13 YEAR OLD CHILDREN. Full stop. It doesn’t matter how many “bad guys” also got this treatment. If you are willing to accept our having done this to an innocent human being because you were piss-in-your-pants scared, you are an embarrassment to America. I’m sorry your conflicting emotions are all in a bunch and occupying that empty sack where your balls should live … but not sorry enough to pretend what America did under Bush/Cheney didn’t happen.
And in answer to your question about the park. You fucking pull out your goddamn cell phone and call the cops. If you don’t have a cell phone, you run to the nearest house to get help. And most importantly, when it comes time to prosecute the perpetrators … you HELP THE INVESTIGATION AND TESTIFY IN COURT TO PUT THE FUCKERS WHO BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF SOMEONE IN JAIL. Forever. The end.
Now look what you’ve done: you made me bust out the Red State-style all-caps *and* the 4-letter enhanced vocabulary on your ass.
[/rant]
Yes, I believe that is the mark of a failed state (at least one indicator, anyway).
So, how about this: have them extradited to Fallujah for trial…
I’m sure I have a dossier, LOL. Try to imagine how much I care.
Great post, BTW.
ty for that last quote, Jack…that one is great!
Besides, the Americans who were waterboarded were not terrorists with ticking timebombs and exploding underpants. Totally different thing.
I have two daughters, ages 11 and 14. We talk constantly about the horrors of Japanese interment camps, the treatment of Native Americans and slaves and the horror of not only committing torture but trying to avoid facing it head on and handling the torturers among us as we demanded those who tortured us be handled in the past. I don’t want them corrupted by how the media or popular culture paints our situation and I never want them to lose sight of how important it is to be really honest with yourself about who you are and what you believe. I hope there are those out there who realize not all Americans have lost their minds or lost their way. Maybe they’ll have rallies for us when we are being gunned down in the streets like the Iranians are now.
I am sickened by what I see in our culture and especially when the same people who want to waterboard terrorists go on and on about American exceptionalism and our Christian nation. On the bright side, every person I have discussed it with, Republican and Democrat, have been convinced that the reason people want to look forward and not back is that they have skeletons in their closets. They are not fooled by the rhetoric and most want it all brought to light even knowing that their own will go down as well as those on the other side of the political divide. Maybe there is hope for us after all.
great post T. this kind of thing restores a great deal of credibility and moral stature to FDL, and is a great distinguishing feature between here and some other places.
A quick search seems to indicate that no one has referenced here the important book on the subject, “They Thought They Were Free”,
oft cited by Arthur Silber.
so, highly recommended for those with an interest in this subject, highly relevant in this day and age.
you ask: “How, I wondered then, could an entire nation go insane and then, afterward, act as if it hadn’t happened? How did that work, exactly?”
the campaign of John Kerry, 2004, look what happened to the ostensible Antiwar movement?
any memories from that time due for a revisitation?
or as Howard Zinn points out about the fight against slavery in this country-we hung the organizers of slave revolts, where violence affected a few…only later to basically make a saint out of good ole’ honest Abe, who ratcheted up that violenece (shall we say “quite considerably”)for what we are told was the same reasons (though this is a lie).
Hypocrisy needs no health reform…
Thanks teddy. beautiful.
Teddy: got kind of waylaid producing a quasi-flame upthread (sorry) on my way down to comment on how much I appreciate this post. But that’s really why I logged in. This has been bugging me recently too.
All you guys here at FDL have my deepest respect and appreciation. Thanks again.
“You know, he still could.”
you are not kidding, apparently.
here is a prediction, not that predictive validity matters much for those who put Party ahead of principle:
Obama will do nothing to substantively reverse the Bush Administration’s policies in areas of torture, indefinite detention, secrecy, pervasive spying, and unaccountable Presidential war powers, and there will be no prosecution of known Bush Amin criminalsm even if he is elected to another term, or three, or ten.
instead, he will consolidate them, and bake them into accepted bipartisan consensus and legal precedent and bureaucratic practice.
and, in 2012, the (D) captured left blogosphere will rally round the Leader and urge a vote for the Least Worst, yet again, and that, folks, will cement you in history alongside the Good Germans.
more and more, we will be forced to ask ourselves how much longer “bearing” witness can be enough. I, and as it would seem on this site, most, do not have a clear understanding of what can be done about the horror that is our government.
I, for my part, will state that I am not satisfied with bearing witness. I am not advocating for any action specifically…yet. I just feel that at a certain point people have to decide what we can live with and what we can’t…and if we find that there are things, indeed, that we cannot live with, then I think we need to start figuring out what to do about it.
Somebody, PLEASE help us figure this out. My feelings, I admit, are pretty radical (but so are the actions of of government), perhaps, but the scales have been tipped toward “evil” for too long in this country…indeed, the world.
Moral equivalency is hard. Six million jews exterminated in the holocaust, hundreds of prisoners tortured and or killed in bagram and gitmo. Is that a useful comparison. Three thousand civilians killed on 9/11, over a hundred thousand civilians killed to date in the iraq war. Do the proportions matter or are the principles more important. Are any civilian population center bombings justified: tokyo, hiroshima, nagasaki, hanoi, dresden, berlin. If our pilots had been captured, should they have been tried in civil courts. Did those bombings and wars serve a purpose.
Two thousand civilians killed in gaza, how many native americans killed or driven by settlers into reservations, how many mexicans driven out of their land in old california. Why do we insist on maintaining a border with mexico. If mexicans or native americans began lobbing mortars or firing missiles into our towns and shopping malls, would we sit on our hands. Maybe gaza is a current event without the deeper religious context of our own settlement history.
It’s not that I don’t agree with the importance of trials, closing gitmo, working to preempt future gaza clashes. It’s that I don’t entirely understand the historical moral bearings on which we choose to base our righteous indignations. But I am learning.
here is a quote from a thoughtful German interviewed in “They Thought they Were Free”:
your feelings are correct – as with Pastor Niemöller you feel correctly, but what abhorrent State action will lead to massive objection, worth joining?
it seems, they have learned to do it subtly, gradually, incrementally, insidiously.
the answer, partially? withdraw consent, withdraw legitimacy. The Soviet regime collapsed the way it did, relatively bloodlessly, because it was hollow, known to be illegitimate, fake. Same with Versailles on the Potomac – they are a bad joke, everything they say.
uh…jeez, that sounded good and all, in that she argued that case beautifully…
my question: where the flying fuck is her passion for the health of palestinian women in Gaza? (re: her comments about the unprecedented generosity displayed by that wonderful man, Netanyahu).
She is a fucking joke…sorry, just had to point that out cause it makes my blood boil.
Nice Post Teddy……
No Silent American here! About TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“Should the world survive America’s global predation, our generation — people alive right now — will always be viewed by history as Good Americans. Just as I wondered about the Good Germans in the twentieth century: people who let a great country slide into soul-corrupting evil and who did nothing.”
The evil from within! Silence, Servitude, loss of life and liberty under the premise of protection. Constitutional rape to protect vested economic interests and cash cows which extract liberty and life in return for myopic self interest. IS the Good American of today the SILENT GERMAN of yester-year?
Simple answer….yes.
Like Dysfunctional drunks whose alcoholism devastates a family, the corporate aristocrats have raped America for decades and we continue to permit the sodomizing of America by corporate slime in crime indistinguishable from a King and his corporate cohorts who raped our forefathers in colonial crime!!!
excuse my ignorance…might I inquire about the post you mentioned (from Jane). i too am reading this in the middle of the night, but if you see this please let me know to which post you refer…my heart could use a movement also:)
mary,
here is one version of what you were referring to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk_pHZmn5QM
it takes a bit to get to the punchline
I’m very happy to read this post. It hits on a theme which I as a American of German blood view as absent in discussion. It is a theme I have stated and has been glossed over. Thanks Teddy!!!
Those Americans who did not die on the beaches of France and in Europe to rid the world of a “Virus” entitled Nazism could not understand, the silence and inaction of the German people when US GI’s realized the horror of concentration camps and the realities of the final solution. The anger of the American soldiers was directed at the German People who where ultimately responsible for the rise of a sociopath, enabled by Good and Silent Germans whose inaction and manipulation was coerced by nazi intelligence agencies? Silence is cancer and cancer kills……..
Meanwhile history repeats and “situation ethics and other considerations” blinds truth!
I don’t know…I don’t know…
fuck it! I will just say what I want to say, and if people think I am crazy that is fine with me…
I am straight the fuck up willing to fight my government. I know of no way in which I can possibly do that right now with ANY hope of being effective…I would be just another extremist reported on TV as a loony (I, like others have stated, feel impotent)…but yes, I am willing to fight my government with all the violence my body can muster.
I have had cops spit on me from as early as age 10 (it was sunflower seeds)…had cops slam my head against brick walls as early as 11…had 8 cops beat my ass a few years ago for simply rallying for the rights of undocumented workers…
perhaps I have anger issues when it comes to the state and its repressive institutions…and [possibly I just have less to lose than others]…but there. I said it, in the open…I would fight with my fists and I would fight with guns…and I would fight with my body…
once upon a time I was a part of an organization that was heavily involved in terrorism…I, myself, have DIRECTLY supported terrorism…I myself have DIRECTLY supported the mass murder if innocent civilians…
and the fact that I was too fucking intellectually lazy and ignorant to understand what I was doing at the time, and not “knowingly” complicit, has been little comfort to me ever since.
So, for me, the actions of our government have BY FAR gone TOO FAR…I’m there, my friend.
I will face down the rows of riot gear cops at every fucking opportunity I get until the day I die…and I know of others who would also. I was trained to support terrorism…guess the terrorists fucked up.
Joshua Aaron Funn
Sargeant, United States Marine Corps. (March, 1999- March, 2004)
What would making accountability look like?
I want it, you want it, and yet Obama and Democratically controlled Congress insist we “look forward, not back”. How do you force these people who have obviously sold out and are complicit with the previous administration?
Dear SnarKassandra, … Bless the Spirit within you !! … I know that the lives of those along your “Path”, will benifit from your wisdom. Mick
Americans have been too busy “shopping”, cheering on their favorite sports team, watching their favorite reality show and dancing like marionettes to the tune provided by the plutocrats to know.
re: original post
Another expression of your point, albeit from a slightly different point of view – Regarding WWII and our “victory”, we won that battle, but in the process became the enemy we had been fighting and thus lost the war.
I am so sorry for what you have had to endure. Michael Moore is the only person who grasped that what WE were asking our troops to do was not a good thing to do to them.
WE all have incidents in our lives we just have to ask forgiveness for and move on. Make ammends when we can.
Peace
I think the patriots are the good Germans. When I lived in the south,NC, during the beginning of the Iraq war. Seemed like the most racist areas had that yellow ribbon, support the troops stuff all over their vehicles.
Kill the browns are alive and well.It wasn’t until the very end of bush’s reign that the bush stickers didn’t seem to be all over the vehicles. KKKarl knew that racism could be exploited for votes. It isn’t just the south either.
Great Post Teddy.
I wish somebody would print it out an just leave it on Obama’s desk.
Noticed that when bush first got in office..one of my favorite tv shows changed so much I stopped watching it. MAD TV ..Love goofy humor . MAD TV took on a very mean quality. Vicious toward mentally ill and old..
Then TV went down year after year. Every script was solving a horrible murder. Saw it as programming US to be more vicious . Getting US used to a ruthless way of life.
If you look at old movies ..40s say..compare them to current film..you would not even think it is the same country.
RE Michael Moore’s role, and, not to deny him the credit he’s rightly due, he’s just one — though perhaps one of the few and most prominent among “celebrities” —to have ” grasped that what WE were asking our troops to do was not a good thing to do to them.”
But untold numbers of others who get no exposure in the mass media knew well and right from the start that those who are sent off to fight America’s wars are the very first victims of the war policy —and that this is true regardless of whether or not their wounds are physically visible. At the same time, every individual bears a personal and direct responsibility for whether and in what circumstances he or she takes up arms and uses violence. No government and no others can relieve one of that responsibility just as no one can relieve Americans of the responsibility for the acts of their government.
Frame those words.
Television: above all, the #1 tool of mass manipulation— and all the more effective because its victims hook themselves up to it and drink deeply, all the while assuming that, since they (unlike masses of others from whom they distinguish themselves) are “sophisticated” users, viewers, and the deleterious effects don’t touch them.
“WARNING: The Surgeon General has failed to recognize & determine that television poses fatal dangers to humane society.
Only you can take the necessary measures to protect yourself from this noxious technology.”
Yes – I grew up in Germany and now find myself in the 4th Reich. Our only hope is that we are finally going broke.
I know the answer to your question, Teddy, because I have seen it. In 2004, my mother, a lifelong Republican, decided to switch to the Democratic party. While she doesn’t admit to voting for Bush in 2000, many of her friends did. I asked WHY? Oh, they were too busy to pay attention. Almost to a person, these people are educated (most of them with PhDs) and actually say that! We were too busy. And many of them were retired!
And, as your piece goes, they are all saying, today, that THEY didn’t vote for Bush in 2000. I sometimes think *I* am going crazy!
It is just like when I see my childhood friends, who I got high with in the early 70s — they tell their kids they would NEVER dream of smoking MJ. At first I thought they were just lying to make sure their kids didn’t take drugs. (A stupid STUPID gamble.) But no! At reunions, they actually told me (with no kids present) that they NEVER smoked pot. Astonishing how humans (or is it just Americans?) can look something directly in the eye and swear it doesn’t exist.
I do not think you are crazy.
Thank you very much for this comment.
Hello Teddy,
I also want to thank you for this post. I think about this all the time…what can I do? I ask myself. I even did a little reading to look to history to see how these horrible ideas and actions take root.
I came upon a book with a new look at the “good german” take. (I’ll try to find the title…can’t recall it right now). The Good German narrative actually helps to absolve guilt, not apply it. It assumes that German citizens turned a “blind eye” to the atrocities supposedly carried out by government entities, stuck their heads in the sand, etc.
The book I read says no. German citizens actively participated in much of the persecution of Jews, gypsies and other scapegoats of society’s problems. Not only was German society complicit, it gave permission.
Let me double back again with the title. thanks again.
The Good Old Days: The Holocaust as Seen by Its Perpetrators and Bystanders ed. Ernst Klee
I will say what I have been saying. I am late to the party but I’ll write the words because they have power, this is my truth. This system of government in its present iteration of the last 30 or so years, maybe longer, is not the Constitution of the United States of America’s purpose. This is not for the people, or by the people. The only way to fight is outside of the system. You can call who you want in government and demonstrate in free speech zones, be jailed for dissent, marginalized for not going along with the program, murdered, yes murdered, incarcerated without recourse. Good post Teddy, I was surprised someone here even voiced some of what I think.
I was up the other night pacing back and forth in anguish, knowing I would not be around long enough to protect my children from this fucking horror.
So, I say to all. Stop participating, tear up your credit cards, stop buying the shit they sell, throw your TV in the garbage where it belongs, if you can, stop buying cars, they will be obsolete troglodytes in the future. If one corporation has the power of a thousand lawyers against one man, it needs to be stopped, if it costs millions to run for office it needs to be stopped, if a very small group of people have all the money it needs to be stopped, if every congress person, or most of them, are millionaires they are not the voice of the people. The road we are on leads to one thing, destruction in some form or other. When cops can use tasers with impunity and the tacit approval of the ignorant, it must be stopped. Homeland security is not all about terrorism, it is about controlling you, the patriot act is not about security, it is about controlling you.
I have commented here and seen the silence of people when I was attacked, in that same commentary there were people all worried about Jane’s collaboration with Grover Norquist, what would everyone think, oh my, oh my. So the good German is alive and well in our time. If you are insulted by my words, good, maybe another soul will wake and see the madness.
I never have a lot of faith in this, very few people in any society really fight, they just don’t care, it is the same throughout history, I question my own courage. The fact is, we are very powerful as individuals, and collectively, but it is together that our power is unstoppable. Unfortunately we are marginalized by division, right, left, and don’t care. This is not about politics any longer, our government is not run by those we elected, they are the minions of money.
Okay, ’nuff said, no one will read this anyway, I just wanted to write it.
The madness of men knows no boundary in its descent into that pit of hell, the destiny and arrival there surprises them.
Little Green Fire mouse
In response to orsonrollsover @ 241 (show text)
I will say what I have been saying. I am late to the party but I’ll write the words because they have power, this is my truth. This system of government in its present iteration of the last 30 or so years, maybe longer, is not the Constitution of the United States of America’s purpose. This is not for the people, or by the people. The only way to fight is outside of the system.
You can call who you want in government and demonstrate in free speech zones, be jailed for dissent, marginalized for not going along with the program, murdered, yes murdered, incarcerated without recourse. Good post Teddy, I was surprised someone here even voiced some of what I think.
I was up the other night pacing back and forth in anguish, knowing I would not be around long enough to protect my children from this fucking horror.
So, I say to all. Stop participating, tear up your credit cards, stop buying the shit they sell, throw your TV in the garbage where it belongs, if you can, stop buying cars, they will be obsolete troglodytes in the future. If one corporation has the power of a thousand lawyers against one man, it needs to be stopped, if it costs millions to run for office it needs to be stopped, if a very small group of people have all the money it needs to be stopped, if every congress person, or most of them, are millionaires they are not the voice of the people. The road we are on leads to one thing, destruction in some form or other. When cops can use tasers with impunity and the tacit approval of the ignorant, it must be stopped. Homeland security is not all about terrorism, it is about controlling you, the patriot act is not about security, it is about controlling you.
I have commented here and seen the silence of people when I was attacked, in that same commentary there were people all worried about Jane’s collaboration with Grover Norquist, what would everyone think, oh my, oh my. So the good German is alive and well in our time. If you are insulted by my words, good, maybe another soul will wake and see the madness. I never have a lot of faith in this, very few people in any society really fight, they just don’t care, it is the same throughout history, I question my own courage. The fact is, we are very powerful as individuals, and collectively, but it is together that our power is unstoppable. Unfortunately we are marginalized by division, right, left, and don’t care. This is not about politics any longer, our government is not run by those we elected, they are the minions of money.
Okay, ’nuff said, no one will read this anyway, I just wanted to write it. The madness of men knows no boundary in its descent into that pit of hell, the destiny and arrival there surprises them. I posted twice because the effing edit won’t do paragraph breaks..makes it hard to read.
Little Green Fire mouse
Hemeyost (sp?) Storm’s Book of Seven Arrows
There you find a little green fire mouse
Another Tough Guy.
How tough, in particular.
Until the United States holds torturers accountable the nation deserves not liberty but liberation.