[Welcome Michael Bérubé, and Host Henry Farrell.] [ As a courtesy to our guests, please keep comments to the book. Please take other conversations to a previous thread. - bev]
Michael Bérubé’s The Left at War tells the story of some arguments around the Iraq war that only partly intersected with the fights that were raging in the blogosphere at the same time. The book is less interested in arguments between warbloggers and progressives, or between the center and the left of the Democratic party, than in the battles among left intellectuals like Noam Chomsky, Michael Walzer and, indeed, Michael Bérubé himself. Bérubé’s thesis is straightforward. Much of the opposition to the war, from writers like Chomsky and Alexander Cockburn sucked. And it sucked because these people adhered to a simplistic narrative in which the US was always evil, and intervention abroad was always imperialism under a thin facade of respect for human rights. What Bérubé calls the “Manichean Left” actually made it more difficult to mobilize against the Iraq war, because it provided pro-war writers with an excuse to brand all opponents on the war as crazy.
Bérubé traces back many of the arguments among left intellectuals to disagreements over the US role in former Yugoslavia in the 1990s. Many leftists, including Bérubé himself, supported the US intervention against Serbia, believing that it was justified as helping prevent genocide. Others – including Chomsky and Cockburn – disagreed. Some of those who disagreed did so by defending Serbian president Milosevic, who was indicted at the Hague for war crimes including the murder of over eight thousand Bosniaks at Srebenica (Milosevic died during the trial). Others disagreed volubly, pointing to the mountain of evidence of serious war crimes. These disputes became bitter and angry.
Bérubé was on the pro-intervention side in Yugoslavia (he was strongly against the Iraq war) – and believes that the anti-intervention people were wrong because of of their simplistic approach to politics. As I read him, he identifies two main problems with the anti-intervention left’s analysis. First, he argues that they effectively see all foreign interventions as imperialist expeditions. On their understanding of politics, it is effectively impossible for the US to intervene abroad in support of human rights, to prevent genocide or whatever. It is always about the money or the oil – even in situations such as former Yugoslavia where there isn’t much money or oil. Second, he argues that they have a crude and monolithic model of culture and media, under which it is pretty well impossible for real opposition to emerge from within the US. For these people it is like The Matrix – all Americans, except for a few brave freedom fighters, have been brainwashed by the Machine.
The Left at War argues that all of this is badly, horribly wrong, and needs to be rethought. First – the book holds out the hope that sometimes wars of intervention can make things better. If (in contrast to the Iraq war), interventions are in accordance with international law, and are aimed at supporting human rights, they can perhaps do more good than harm. Second – it argues that the Manichean left is much too pessimistic about the possibility of real opposition emerging. Chomsky and others predicted that the Internet was going to be just another corporate playground. They had no way of anticipating the emergence of the anti-war blogosphere as a significant force in debates over US foreign policy and the war in Iraq. Bérubé does concede that Chomsky et al. got it right in their description of the mainstream media’s slavering over the war, with embedded reporters, retired generals punditizing their tinny hearts out on CNN and the rest of the grisly business.
What would make things better? Here, Bérubé argues that a better understanding of culture – one which doesn’t equate the American people with the American sheeple – would help lefties avoid some of the critical errors that the Manichean left made. He draws in particular on cultural studies theorist Stuart Hall, who analyzed the beginnings of Thatcherism in the United Kingdom, and who argued that it reflected real cultural phenomena, rather than just a form of ideological hoodwinking.
This is a book that I learned a lot from (I should state up front that while I have never met Michael, I have corresponded with him and we blog on the same group blog). That said, there are things that I disagree with or want to question him on, a couple of which I’ll state up front, a couple of which may emerge in the conversation.
First – my feeling was that the book had two halves – one on what had gone wrong in the Iraq debate, and another on general theories of culture, and I wasn’t as convinced by the second as by the first. To put it another way – what practical lessons, if any, would a reading of the theories of Stuart Hall etc in the modern context provide? How could his insights translate into a movement that could help get things changed? Or is this not what we should be looking for?
Second – while I agree with Michael about a lot of things, I am somewhat more skeptical than he is about the possibility for pushing for respect for human rights and international law. I think that there is something to it (there is evidence that human rights norms sometimes have consequences), but I would not like to bet large amounts of money that the US or any other large state is likely to give up realpolitik in favor of a genuinely deep commitment to human rights any time soon. Nor do I think that it would do so, even if the progressive revolution that the teabaggers fear took place (progressives can be just as collectively selfish as conservatives). Finally, international law itself is often more about power than rights – the UN Security Council is all about big powerful states having a veto over certain kinds of action. So given all this – why should the left commit its resources to international law and human rights?
Third – couldn’t a Chomskyan media analyst take some comfort from the current state of play among blogs? Certainly, there are some important blogs that are continuing to be oppositional – but most of the important left-of-center bloggers of five or six years ago are either working for the Man (their blogs have been bought out by some big media group or another), or trying to become the Man themselves (by creating their own little media empires). Will this weaken the oppositional force of left-leaning over time?
Finally – a question that is more for readers than for Michael. It has been my impression that there has always been a separation between what you might describe as the Chomskyan left on the one hand (the people grouped around Z Magazine, Counterpunch, maybe Code Pink) and the netroots (who are strongly progressive – but want to see Democrats in power). Is this impression right? Are there people who identify both with the Chomskyan left and with the netroots? Are things changing because of disappointment with Obama?
Over to Michael, and to all of you.



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Michael, Welcome to the Lake.
Henry, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Thanks! Great to be here. OK, I have an initial answer or two to Henry’s challenging opening questions.
First — my feeling was that the book had two halves – one on what had gone wrong in the Iraq debate, and another on general theories of culture, and I wasn’t as convinced by the second as by the first. To put it another way — what practical lessons, if any, would a reading of the theories of Stuart Hall etc in the modern context provide? How could his insights translate into a movement that could help get things changed? Or is this not what we should be looking for?
The book does indeed have two halves, and they don’t always fit together properly. Try to think of it as getting two books for the price of one! Chapters four and five, on Stuart Hall and cultural studies, are (as you say) more general arguments about culture and politics, and I think they have more purchase on domestic US politics than on foreign policy. But I’m trying to find a way out of that. Basically, the argument there is that in US politics, the left shouldn’t think of the not-left masses as American sheeple who are duped into Birtherism or Tea Party madness by the machinations of Fox News. Now, I enjoy mocking wingnuttery as much as anyone, and I know that the US mass media are largely terrible. (That’s why I turned to the blogosphere.) But my analysis starts with a simple but profound remark from one of Stuart Hall’s major essays, criticizing the tenacious leftist belief in “false consciousness”: “The first thing to ask about an ‘organic’ ideology that, however unexpectedly, succeeds in organizing substantial sections of the masses and mobilizing them for political action, is not what is false about it but what is true. By true I do not mean universally correct as a law of the universe but ‘makes good sense,’ which — leaving science to one side — is usually quite enough for ideology.” The point is that one has to try to learn from the tactics of one’s political opponents, as Hall did with Thatcherism (and as no one in the US tried to do with Reagan or Bush) — not to emulate them, but to find out how they work and how best to counter them.
But Hall, as he freely admits, had comparatively little to say about foreign policy, war and peace. His attempt to imagine the basis of an antiwar movement that would have blunted Falklands hysteria in 1982 was uncharacteristically diffuse and tentative. So that’s where I try to pick up the ball and apply his work to international affairs — which leads me to your next question.
OK, to Henry’s second question:
Second — while I agree with Michael about a lot of things, I am somewhat more skeptical than he is about the possibility for pushing for respect for human rights and international law. I think that there is something to it (there is evidence that human rights norms sometimes have consequences), but I would not like to bet large amounts of money that the US or any other large state is likely to give up realpolitik in favor of a genuinely deep commitment to human rights any time soon. Nor do I think that it would do so, even if the progressive revolution that the teabaggers fear took place (progressives can be just as collectively selfish as conservatives). Finally, international law itself is often more about power than rights — the UN Security Council is all about big powerful states having a veto over certain kinds of action. So given all this — why should the left commit its resources to international law and human rights?
I understand your skepticism, and I have to admit I don’t always succeed in tamping down my own sense of despair on this front. And I understand the limits of an appeal to internationalism when the field of the international is dominated by one hyperpower; or, to put this another way, I agree that the International Criminal Court won’t be a truly International Criminal Court until Kissinger and Cheney take their rightful places in the dock.
But I have two responses to this. One is about the present and the immediate past. The ICC and the development of the doctrine of the Responsibility to Protect (R2P) are not panaceas. But they are important emergent forms of internationalism that deserve the left’s support. Instead, one wing of the left — that would, ah, be the Manichean wing — has devoted itself to denouncing the ICC as a kangaroo court (for the trials of Milosevic and Saddam) and to denouncing R2P as neo-imperialism with a humanitarian face. This, I think, is serious folly — and, in the strict sense, reactionary. Yes, international law is often more about power than rights. But in recent years we have begun to develop challenges to state sovereignty in extreme circumstances, and I’m going to insist that these have the potential for good. The extradition of Pinochet; the trial of Milosevic; and the UN-led interventions in East Timor, Sierra Leone, and Liberia — these were new things in the world of international affairs, and the liberation of East Timor (which Chomsky, to his lasting credit, had championed for decades) marked the first time a UN-led action actually created a new, independent state. Granted, all this good work threatens to be obliterated by the people who used R2P as a justification for the invasion of Iraq, which is why those people need to marginalized in future discussions of the principle. But my argument is that any leftist who opposes these developments — in the name of preserving state sovereignty above all else — turns his or her back on a long and noble tradition of left internationalism. Just as I would not want to be part of left that said “what happens in Franco’s Spain is Franco’s business” or “the civil war in El Salvador is a dispute within a sovereign nation and it would be inappropriate to take sides,” I do not want to be part of a left that insists that the international community had no right or cause to intervene in the Balkans.
The other response is about the future. As I say in the book, much of the world has had quite enough of blundering, well-intentioned Americans (not to mention Americans with genuinely bad intentions). So I have to believe that much of the opposition to things like R2P are based on the recognition that the balance of power in the UN tilts severely to the West (and the North). But as Ramesh Thakur points out in The United Nations, Peace and Security, that consideration did not deter the crafters of R2P (a globally diverse and contentious group), who recognized, as we should, that the current geopolitical configuration is not permanent. When the era of American hegemony finally passes from the earth, as it inevitably will, I’d like there to be some international structure in place. I don’t think we have any other sustainable options, actually. As I put it in the book’s conclusion,
I hope that’s utopian enough for starters! But this is how it hooks up to the Stuart Hall argument: the antiglobalization left and the environmentalist left have, to some degree, managed to convince some progressives to think less selfishly and think about our long-term global best interests instead. Is it possible for a human-rights left to work the same terrain? Is it possible to imagine a popular form of human-rights internationalism, and if so, how? Right now I can’t think of anything other than Darfur that has managed to capture the popular imagination, so I’m very curious to hear what human-rights activists have to say about this.
And as for questions three and four, I’d really like to hear what FDL readers think.
Good afternoon and welcome to FDL this afternoon Michael and welcome back Henry.
Michael, I have not had an opportunity to read your book but based on Henry’s introduction, I do have a question/comment.
It was during the Jimmy Carter days where the emphasis on Human Rights really seemed to take hold, in both the US and the rest of the world. From my perspective, it always seemed to be Carter trying to force the US to live up to our professed ideals. Reagan came in and it became the deal of making people feel good about their hates and prejudices.
Yet, the idea of Human Rights for all, including those where the US did not have monetary investments (like in the former Yugoslavia) still seemed to be at least paid lip service by Reagan and the Bush/Clinton/Obama WHs. Am I way wrong on this or just standard confused? (Note: The Bush 2 WH obviously dropped the Human Rights efforts as an actual emphasis along about 9/12/2001)
My thoughts on this book (and I’ve read pieces–including the whole Iraq chapter) but not the whole thing largely parallel Henry’s: as someone who spends 50% of her time defending human rights, I’m certain that’s not the right framework to generate change, and I’d like to see more discussion of what we should be doing.
But the weirdest thing, for me, was how unfamiliar it seemed. Until 2002 I was solidly entrenched in the academic debates described in the book, including working with Zizek and doing extensive work on Stuart Hall. After that point, I was … here (or at least in the blogosphere, though also working, for a while, internationally for a big multinational). Much as I love Hall (I find Zizek’s theory far too divorced from reality), I’m not sure he’s the answer here. And much as I hate the hawkish left described in the Iraq war chapter, I’m not sure a society in which ACORN, not ANSWER is the bogeyman really does use the Manichean left as the excuse to demonize the dirty fucking hippies.
Hi Michael!
Bérubé does concede that Chomsky et al. got it right in their description of the mainstream media’s slavering over the war, with embedded reporters, retired generals punditizing their tinny hearts out on CNN and the rest of the grisly business
While I appreciate giving credit where credit is due, is not getting that part right about as astonishing as an accruate prediction that the World Series will go at least four games?
As a technical note, if you are replying to a specific comment, there is a “Reply” button in the lower right hand of each comment. Clicking the “Reply” will pre-fill the name and number of the comment being replied to and helps everyone to follow the conversation.
Would Mr.Berube agree that Messrs. Clinton, Bush II, and Obama should all be at the Hague at this point?
Carter did indeed press the cause of human rights, building on the Helsinki Accords — although Helsinki, like the UN itself, also enshrined the principle of national sovereignty and (over the short term) strengthened the Soviet Union’s grasp on Eastern Europe. However, I can’t say that Carter’s fumbling attempts to press the Shah on human rights led to any great success. Reagan and Bush, meanwhile, had their own reasons to talk up human rights in the endgame of the Cold War, just as Bush II somehow found a way to embrace the language of national liberation as a pretext for the invasion of Iraq. But on the whole, I think you’re right to suggest that the clock never really got turned back to pre-Helsinki time. And in the 35 years since, we’ve seen the emergence of Human Rights Watch and (as I note @ 4) the responsibility to protect, where the UN is finally articulating a principle that doesn’t let state sovereignty have the last word when things like genocide are at stake.
As far as the sovereignty issue, I’m concerned that that ignores the changes to sovereignty that globalization is driving–the inability of states to police their borders, the fondness of those in power to create non-sovereign spaces, whether they be Gitmo or free trade zones. In other words, this vision of a challenge to sovereignty ignores the way that much more powerful forces are already shredding sovereignty, and with it the institutional state-based structure on which seeing UN-based challenges to sovreignty succeed would rely.
The difference between the Rs and the Ds is that the latter think you should bomb people for humanitarian reasons too.
As I read the Yugoslav aftermath, that is a pretty apt description. Not totally up on it, but think that U.S. bombs killed more civilians than Milosovich.
And as former PM Sir John Major said about another war (too little too late, but who’s counting)
In response to your first answer, what do you think Stuart Hall (if he were in his full analytic powers, and working in the US rather than the UK), would make of the teabaggers? What is “right” about their ideology, and what can the left learn from it?
What’s crazy is living in denial about the consequences of a brutal US foreign policy, expecting doing the same thing over and again to have a result different from making the world hate us even more, and then corralling a population into stoked outrage, two minutes hate, on profitable command.
That accepts the right wing’s framing that anyone who criticizes the US “always blames the US first” instead of blasting through it with truth.
The US has been on a 30 year domestic decline and we’re spending how much telling who how to what again?
And much as I hate the hawkish left described in the Iraq war chapter, I’m not sure a society in which ACORN, not ANSWER is the bogeyman really does use the Manichean left as the excuse to demonize the dirty fucking hippies.
Marcy, would you run that by me again? I understand the bit about Hall not being the answer, though I wish everyone on the US left were as aware of his work as you are. But I’m not sure whether you’re saying (a) society doesn’t use the Manicheans as an excuse to demonize the DFHs, or (b) society would demonize the DFHs even if there were no Manichean left to be found.
On what grounds for Clinton and Obama? (A real, not a rhetorical, question.)
Point taken. Still, it probably needs to be said that the mass media in 2002-03 worked the Chomsky playbook almost to the letter — with some notable exceptions, which I discuss in the book.
Hi Michael, As a Vietnam Vet who protested that war when I came home I have spent 40 years trying to understand what happened. One of the problems I saw first hand in those days was what you describe and, indeed, I bought into the notion of the US as the root of all evil. Through the years I have come to think that the anti-war movements embrace of the NVA and VC was a serious mistake that allowed the right to dismiss and vilify it. The war was most certainly wrong and I don’t buy the “we were spit on” notion that is constantly trotted out but I do think it was more complicated than that. There were many Americans who made tremendous sacrifices for the Vietnamese just as I think their are many now doing the same in Iraq and Afghanistan. There are plenty of people here who disagree strongly with me but I wonder how you might feel about it?
Are you opposed to the tactics of the Kosovo war (high-altitude bombing), as I am, or are you arguing that international intervention in the Balkans was illegitimate regardless of what form it took?
And what other anti-Iraq war arguments would have worked better? Like Scott Ritter who proved to a fare-thee-well that there were no WMDs in Iraq, so everyone ignored him? That was the approach I took to the war in advance: did W make the case. Since all his arguments were paper thin, and the evidence on the other side was pretty solid, it was clear the war was bogus on the stated goals. But few others approached it that way, certainly not the MSM.
Given your discussion about the disjunct between other left internationalism (environmentalists and antiglobalization activists), how would you respond to the challenge that the plight of young women working in Chinese factories is just as morally complex as some of the issues you describe regarding war? Sure, these women are horribly exploited and in terribly weak position politically. But those horrible factories have also led to the improvement of the quality of living of millions of workers and their families.
Sure, internationalism is a potentially necessary route to fixing the problems associated with this exploitation (though the increase of human trafficking makes me skeptical that weakening international institutions have the stomach to fix even more horrible kinds of exploitation). But it seems that the US has ceded its power to be able to do anything about it–except until such point as the antiglobalization left can hook up with working men and women to fight for protection for both consumers and jobs.
The “war is peace” part that Obama espoused in his Nobel speech. When has the U.S. ever been an honest broker in any other country in a fully peaceful way?
What’s right about the teabaggers? Not much. But as certain progressive bloggers have pointed out (cough, cough), Obama’s embrace of the banksters effectively ceded populist outrage at the bailouts to the right. Asking for transparency and accountability from the financial sector should be part of What The Left Does Every Day.
I don’t think society–certainly not mainstream society–uses the Manichean left to demonize all the left. With the Overton window where it is, it doesn’t need to. Far better to use Dean and ACORN to demonize the left, when the first is centrist and the second exploits race.
OK, fair enough. I have not read the book yet, which I most certainly will do very soon.
Aloha, Michael and Henty…! Mahalo for being here at the Lake…!
I’ve been blogging for years about the lies of WMD, Tillman, Abu Ghraib, Haliburton/KBR, missing Billions in Baghdad, ad nauseum…!
Currently, I’m poring over Sigir’s ‘Hard Lessons’ and the newly uncovered ‘A Different War’ from the CAI… It’s amazing how they point out a consistent theme… That is… They never planned for any Phase IV development… you know the post invasion Nation Building…! Anyways, my question is where was the push-back from the moderate right/mid-level brass on how bungled up things were going…?
But then imagine a nightmare scenario in which the only challenges to sovereignty come from (a) multinational corporations and (b) Bush-esque sovereigns declaring Gitmo to be the “state of exception” — while human-rights advocates have to sit by and watch peoples be massacred lest they be labeled “imperialists.”
I work with a Bosnian who was involved in the conflict. You cannot say anything bad about Bill Clinton around him. I take him over any theoretical tactical pundit or member of the 101st fighting chairborn. He was there. He fought and saw what was going on.
Raven
Are you saying that the generalized understanding of Vietnam (and Iraq) ignores the efforts–and some successes–of service men and women to improve the lives of Vietnamese and Iraqis?
My theory of what went on here is a little different (warning – some IR wonkiness follows). The principle of self-determination (which is what I presume you are referring to when you talk about national sovereignty) in Helsinki was important as a kind of a way that the Soviet Union could try to shut down criticisms from the West of what was going on in the Warsaw Pact countries. But it was nowhere near as useful against domestic critics like Vaclav Havel, who pointed to the unwillingness of the Soviet Union actually to let these selves determine. After the collapse of the Berlin Wall, self-determination was redefined by the CSCE/OSCE so as it wouldn’t get in the ways of interventions that were designed to shore up European security through human rights instruments (most notably the High Commissioner on National Minorities). What is interesting here is not that these were being deployed cynically – but they were being deployed in the belief that the best framework for European security was one based on collective democratic principles, and some degree of self-determination for ethnic minorities within current borders. Interventions were supposed to be collectively sanctioned by all or nearly all CSCE/OSCE states, and to be very limited. But then the Russians started getting antsy about how this was interfering with their ability to control things in the Near Abroad, and started pushing for national sovereignty (not self-determination), a remit for big states (e.g. the Russian Federation) to enforce minority rights when it was useful to them, and a strong emphasis on national sovereignty (of aforementioned large states – smaller states having to accept more or less what they got). Similar stories could, I think, be told in other parts of the world. What this amounts to, I think, is a history where ‘responsibility to protect’ type stuff was mostly a function of a particular moment in history, where there was some convergence on democracy as an underpinning of international security. I think that moment has gone – and I suspect it is not coming back any time soon in a world where the China-US bipartite relationship is becoming the central relationship in world politics.
In general, for bombing at will any place, any time, as they please – war crimes.
Clinton: Sudan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia, to say nothing of the sanctions on Iraq so glibly dispensed with by his Madeleine Albright.
Obama: you’re current on that.
Both: Selling arms to Israel!!!!
Yeah, that’s what I thought you meant. But that is what I argue in the Iraq chapter: the right didn’t need to go after ANSWER because it was too busy slandering Howard Dean and Al Gore (the link is to that infamous Michael Kelly screed of Sept 02). But Marcy, surely it’s possible to note that war hysteria while also insisting that it was a disaster that a group like ANSWER seized control of the movement and held “teach-ins” extolling the virtues of Saddam’s educational system. I mean, talk about an antiwar leadership that looked like it was designed by Karl Rove.
Yes’m
Spot on target. And I believe that time is actually quite near, if not already. I am thinking (and wonder if you agree) that an analogy to the global condition without some central organizing legal system can be seen in our history of the tenacity of the states rights movement which has been paralyzing to genuine unity, especially as to human rights.
While I agree that the UN and the U.S. finally does talk a good game where it comes to civil rights and we frequently castigate countries that engage in genocide in Asia or Europe, so far no President seems to have even attempted to tackle genocide in Africa. Why do you suppose that is, and do you think that will change in our lifetimes?
Fair enough.
But I’m just not convinced–much as I spend much of my time hitting on human rights–that the way to push back is through this challenge to sovereignty. Again, I think at its most effective it is based on state-based power, and those that want to can and do exploit the different jurisdictions within it (pitting NATO against the UN, for example, or trade regimes against human rights ones).
The question is, what is the most efficacious way for the left to fight back. And I’m not sure the internationalism you describe is it–partly (as you suggest) because it’s a lot harder to make that sexy than it is to make certain kinds of consumerism sexy.
Shouldn’t the book have been called “A Small Group of Leftist Intellectuals Disagree”? The US is usually wrong in its foreign policy objectives, and I agree too that some like Chomsky often seem to imply that those upon whom these policies are visited are really Jeffersonian democrats in disguise. But the media was always going to trivialize or ignore critiques from the left. So Chomsky et al could have formulated a better critique but the media would still have reacted in the same way.
I have to say too that this emphasis on differences between a few on the left strikes me as elitist in the extreme. It goes against much of what those of us who have been working on the internet have been striving for. That is that an idea stands or falls on its own merits, not that it is said by Jane or Chomsky or Bérubé or you or me. None of us own the left. None of us speak for it. We put forward our ideas and if they are good they catch on and if they aren’t, they don’t.
Thanks, Raven — I agree, with one caveat: as I recall, there were intense debates in the 60s about whether to link one’s opposition to war in Vietnam with explicit support of the VC. (Eugene Genovese’s 1965 declaration of support for the VC led to a major academic-freedom controversy in New Jersey, for example.) Whereas, as I argue in the book, the antiwar leadership in 2002-03 had no such qualms. In the book, I mention Susan Watkins’ pro-Iraqi-resistance essay, “Vichy on the Tigris” (in which al-Sadr and company are given the moral status of the French Resistance, and the Americans are, well, you know), and Arundhati Roy’s famous statement that we have “no choice” but to support the Iraqi resistance with all its flaws.
What Hugh said.
It also strikes me that there’s an asymmetry beging advanced. The war mongers can do any gd thing they want, say what they want, including egregious lies and propaganda, make mistakes out the wazoo, but the antiwar movement must be perfect in every regard, and fine tune their marketing so that one bright morn, all voters in the U.S. will wake up with the scales fallen from their eyes.
Great question. I wish I had a great answer. I do remember that just before Bush’s 2002 speech to the UN, there was a right-realist opposition to the war, from Poppy Bush’s friends like Brent Scowcroft and James Baker. Where that went, I don’t know either. Down the memory hole, perhaps?
Right, but in my memory of it, as much as we in the left talked about how screwy it was that ANSWER was the best we could muster to lead a demonstration (complete with all the problems that represented for the demonstration itself), I think the rest of the world–teh world that might have been influence by the demonstration–just didn’t give a damn, at least not for more than a few minutes. I guess I’m not sure whether I think the era of demonstrations has ended (at least in this media environment–though the practice of the teabaggers would suggest it still works in select conditions) or whether I think our battle against the war was just much bigger than intra-left squabbles.
These are the betrayed. They believe in the cause that the leadership presents. But it was a manipulation only toward achieving their real goals whatever they may be, for good or evil. The fact they have been manipulated does not detract from the sincerity of their motivation, nor necessarily that of the leaders. They are just different.
Analogy (I am in to them today) Obama got us to join and work in a cause he has no notion of pursuing. That said he may well not be selfish, evil and self serving; just has plan different from what he sold us. Bait and Switch.
It was thoroughly rejected, then ignored, by W.
Interesting, since I didn’t even go in until 66 and was only 17 at the time I wasn’t aware of that.
OK, I’ll take most of this comment as a friendly amendment to my patchy memory of post-Helsinki developments. Thanks, Henry! But as for your last remark –
What this amounts to, I think, is a history where ‘responsibility to protect’ type stuff was mostly a function of a particular moment in history, where there was some convergence on democracy as an underpinning of international security. I think that moment has gone – and I suspect it is not coming back any time soon in a world where the China-US bipartite relationship is becoming the central relationship in world politics.
I only hope you’re wrong, and that Ramesh Thakur is right. Of course, he’s got a vested interest in R2P, having been a commissioner of the International Commission on Intervention and State Sovereignty.
Well said Hugh.
I am so out of my area, but how does the left really get heard and paid any attention, when the opposition is the power & $$ of the MIC? What is an effective pushback?
Also fair enough, in return. Thanks, Marcy — I hear you. And I should probably add, in all honesty, that there are some real problems with the Save-Darfur initiative, so that our one “celebrity” R2P issue isn’t as clear-cut as it likes to appear.
Still, I do wish that the international-wonk left had more points of overlap with the antiglobalization and environmentalist lefts. Because as we’re already seeing, unless we can get on the same page (or somewhere close to it), our strongest climate-change initiatives are going to be pretty weak sauce.
Maybe but I think a lot of the betrayed believe in the cause because of their active engagement in making that sacrifice. I’m not really talking about the combat arms type of sacrifice but rather the civic action.
What evidence do you have that any one group, even a misguided one, seized control of the “anti-war” movement? I get this feeling that this is all inside baseball that is largely meaningless to the rest of us, and to the blogosphere in particular. I think Phil Donahue’s show being pulled off the air was a far more significant event in how the powers that be dealt with dissent.
Shouldn’t the book have been called “A Small Group of Leftist Intellectuals Disagree”?
I think NYU Press would have objected to this for some reason….
More seriously, why is a book on left-disagreements “elitist”? The divide over the Balkans or Afghanistan or sovereignty in general is an important one. Why shouldn’t an academic-press book take it up?
Welcome Professor Bérubé.
I’m intrigued by this statement in the preview post earlier:
Does this last part refer to people like Chomsky and Cockburn, who made it more difficult to mount an effective opposition from the left, or does it refer to the entire American left?
In my opinion, we’d all be a lot more successful if we pitch these issues as inherently conservative. I do believe we’re going to see the rise of viable coalitions to not only unify these movements, but to eliminate some of the tin ear of them, as jobs becomes more and more an issue (and as job insecurity keeps climbing the class ladder to encompass technocrats). But there’s a real risk of falling into jingoism that way.
Maybe that’s how the teabaggers can be useful.
yes. one here.
Heh, bring back the draft and we’ll see that civic action…! ;-)
Most of the world didn’t give a damn about ANSWER, no, and (thank goodness) it didn’t get too much media coverage. But it helped alienate some liberal and progressive Jews from the antiwar movement (if not from the left altogether), and since I/P issues were and are the elephant in the antiwar room, that really wasn’t a good thing.
It sort of disappeared, as did the anti-war statements by academic realists like John Mearsheimer. No-one has written the intellectual history of the Iraq war yet – but there was some fascinating stuff that went on within the right that I have never seen any good explanation for. When Francis Fukuyama came out (mildly) against the war, he was excoriated by Krauthammer and others as an anti-Semite. Krauthammer and his people were pushing a theory under which the differences between neo-cons and realists had dissolved, because in a unipolar world where the US could do basically whatever the hell it wanted, why not try to go in there and reform the Middle East? And I think that Hugh is quite wrong here. On the one hand, intellectuals shouldn’t be getting above themselves and thinking that they have much real influence on specific policy decisions – they don’t, never did, and never will. On the other – they can surely help set the mood music and subtly shape the long run understandings of what is and is not possible in international politics. Hence, it is important to pay attention to what people thought. And ideas are never free floating, and the best ideas never win out in some sort of abstract marketplace of ideas as the right wing shibboleth would have it. Instead, they are attached to people – and some people are much more influential than others – and social movements. You can’t take the politics out of political ideas, and I think it is naive to try. That is not to say that you can’t level the playing field a bit, weaken the power of elites to block uncomfortable ideas and so on, but you have to recognize that there are real limits to what you can do, or you end up with the kind of glib and breezy technolibertarianism of Glenn Reynolds’ Army of Davids (one of the most truly fucking awful books it has ever been my misfortune to read).
Not that I am saying that Hugh is Glenn Reynolds of course – but I simply don’t think that you can remove ideas from the people associated with them, or realistically hope for a world in which ideas’ success and failure isn’t linked in important ways to the people advocating for them, their networks, visibility and all of that. A better approach is maybe that of J.K. Galbraith’s countervailing power – you can try to construct your own megaphones to counterbalance those of the other side – but this is quite different from claiming that we can arrive at a world in which all ideas are born equal.
As per the usual, I am late to the party.
As a Native American/Chicano/Military Vet, I took the position posited by the Chicano Veterans Organization. And for sake of transparency, I am a member.
The overall argument was three-fold. First the Constitution required a Declaration of War. Thus, the AUMF Resolution was a bogus artifice as was LBJ’s Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. And anyone who didn’t recognized this, deservedly earned a “head-in-butt-ectomy.”
Secondly, the Fourth Estate dropped the ball and established itself along with white America, as “criminally stupid.” To wit, the unassailable facts did surface and ripple across America and the Pond, i.e., Europe. And when I refer to white America, I make the obvious contrast in which “racial and ethnics” were overwhelmingly opposed to Bush’s War of Choice. And this opposition was never effectively addressed within the traditional media, other than on the Interet.
Thirdly, the CVO immediately argued that the Admirals and Generals turned their backs on the Privates, Corporals, and the Sergeants, the backbone of Organized Violence. And it took a lowly Lt. Colonel to write his graduate thesis on this manifested “careerism” and which says much about the failure of the Fourth Estate, regardless of what the Great Scribblers on both the Left and the Right, were saying in real time and even after the fact.
And to date, I have only found one well-regarded Scribbler, and that being Spence Ackerman here at the FDL, that readily admitted he got it wrong and humorously pleaded that he would like spend his two year sentence in a federal prison of his choice. So, many Kudos for Spencer, and in doing so, he has risen considerably higher relative to my Yardstick for Esteem.
Jaango
There’s not enough water in Darfur. I think that no amount of negotiation nor bombing nor troops (“peacekeeping”) on the ground is at all relevant to the fundamental problem.
“…these people adhered to a simplistic narrative in which the US was always evil…”
I really don’t think Chomsky is giving us a simplistic narrative. He’s doing his best to counter a seriously compromised media machine and to present Americans with evidence of our aggression abroad.
In a country where very few people even know who Chomsky is, the answer is not to attack him but to help spread his message.
Which CVO you talkin bout Willis?
CVO Chief Visionary Officer (corporate title)
CVO Commercial Vehicle Operations
CVO Cascades Volcano Observatory (USGS)
CVO Chief Veterinary Officer
CVO Custom Vehicle Operations (division of the Harley-Davidson Factory)
CVO Commander of the Royal Victorian Order
CVO Credentials Verification Organization
CVO College of Veterinarians of Ontario (Canada)
CVO Corvallis, Oregon
CVO Circumventricular Organ (biology)
CVO Chief Volunteer Officer
CVO Cadia Valley Operations (Australia)
CVO Classroom Video
CVO Component Video Output
CVO Compliance Verification Officer (Canada Border Services Agency)
CVO Constant Visual Observation (medicine)
CVO Certification Validating Office
CVO Conjuga’ta Ve’re Obstet’rica
CVO Community Voices On-Line (organisation that provides web-based support for Local Involvement Networks)
CVO Canvas Vulcanized Oxford (shoe)
CVO Common Velocity Obstacle (robotics)
I agree completely and also with your implication that those on the ground doing the work enhances the motivation.
,In fact i think it is what affirms the value and or exposes the flaws. I think this blends into Hugh’s directing attention to the “intellectual elites” vice the common rationality that stems from experience. Any viable movement needs both. In the south, as I imagine you agree, there is great skepticism of thinkers. That it is now carried to the extreme of intentional ignorance has some roots in the suspicion of lack of respect from Liberal elites.
I think that this gets to the heart of the matter:
I’ve noticed that there is a tendency towards cultural fragmentation and an unwillingness for smart people to learn how to talk to everyone else. In the old days, only the rich and/or otherwise privileged could afford to be smart and antisocial; otherwise, smart folk had to learn how to interact with the mainstream of society without blatantly curling their lips in contempt. Now, with the magic of the internet, people seek out enclaves where they don’t have to learn how to be persuasive, and where everyone there will have opinions that match their own. Thus we’re creating and nurturing a lot of very smart people who have bone-deep contempt for the rest of humanity — which is something that the conservatives take advantage of when they talk about the “elitism” of the left.
You talk about Krauthammer etal… I’d like to truly find out what happened to ‘Wildly off the Mark’ Shinseki…! ;-)
More to the C-and-C wing of the left. In the book, I liken the countercultural attitude toward politics to the 80s indie-rock attitude toward mainstream success, in which winning over millions of new listeners is actually selling out. (I came from a music scene that soured on Husker Du the minute they started selling more than a few thousand records.)
Now, in Chomsky’s case the dynamic is more complicated, because of course he’s a worldwide icon, hailed far more readily outside the US than within. But sometimes he is treated as the only dissident intellectual in the US, as if he and he alone has escaped to tell thee. I talk about this in the book where I try to parse his claim that “no one” questioned Bush’s rationale for war by late 2003 (a claim that will probably come as a surprise to the left blogosphere, the NYRB, and hundreds of independent journalists).
You know, I think Henry is right in that the best use of Hall in this situation is to really attempt to understand the teabaggers. Partly because (as Jane has argued) that’s a more promising route to effective political change than just through the party. But also because–if you want to appeal to human rights–right libertarians, some of whom resonate well with the teabaggers, are very effective allies.
The U.S. seems to be an evidence free zone, including those on the left who want to demonize Chomsky, who is one of the few to present actual evidence.
in 2002-2003 i was deeply involved in local antiwar organizing. at churches, schools (high school, colleages, universities) we teach-ins, walk outs, vigils, all kinds of things (we even hosted a regional meeting) and the only thing ANSWER had to do with anything was organizing the big DC protests which we did organize local buses for.
so, i have no idea what anti-war movement you are talking about.
Easy, big boy… As he said…
It’s a curious thing — media consolidation (and money-consolidation!) are much worse than they were fifty years ago, and yet, and yet, the country is quite dramatically more multicultural, more GLBTQ-friendly, more disability-accessible than it was in 1960. The left seems to have gained ground (slipping and sliding much of the way, admittedly) primarily in cultural matters, while losing it economically and w/r/t foreign policy. But then, that’s what the final chapter of the book is about, too.
And then you had Pat Buchanan being against the invasion — which was a godsend to the Bush/Cheney PNAC platoon, because it allowed them to haul out the anti-semitic tar brush and tar all anti-Iraq-invasion protesters with it. (Ironically enough, Buchanan was apparently too effective at drumming up conservative opposition to the invasion — or at least he was feared to be so — because suddenly prominent Republicans and conservatives who’d kept mum about Buchanan’s known bigtory started reciting example after example of it, and he was actually banished from DC TV punditry circles for a while. But of course all was forgiven and he’s now back on TV again.)
I was cool just didn’t read it carefully enough.
Because it represents so little of what the left actually is, especially on the net. Because the Balkans are practically ancient history to what has been going on the last several years. Because many of us have been in and are still in various disagreements on the left. For one thing, it is largely the way the blogosphere works. But we have had bruising and ongoing fights over Obama. Single payer advocates and public option supporters went at it for months. Now with the public option out, some of those supporters have pulled that support and are catching hell for doing so. So fights we know about firsthand. As I said, part is how the blogosphere works, where there really is a competition for ideas. Parts have to do with older divides between those who identify primarily as Democrats and those who identify as progressive.
It’s all good…! ;-)
He did make some great points…!
Good afternoon:
I think that before you pitch a book that attempts to characterize Chomsky as crazy or Manichean you are at a great disadvantage and hopelessly overmatched.
Chomsky is nothing of not meticulously well documented in all of his claims and cites from original archival documentation. If you feel yourself up to the task of finding fault in his logic you will need much help. What conclusions he comes to are not simplsitic. although they are not convuluted or totured, they are stragithforward.
The US like any other power is not in the business of benign intervention out of the goodness of its heart. If you beleive the US government is benevolent in its aims when it uses lethal force then you really have no business critizing Chomsky or anyone else. You will notice also that the US is cowardly in its application of force since it invariably uses it against depleted and much weaker oponents and with merciless wanton killing.
The US has set for itself plans to exercise power around the globe, and forceful power more often than not, because it beleives that it suits its purposes to do so. This plan is as well documented now as it was since the advent of WWII.
Chomsky is very clear when he lays out the way in which the US military intervention in the Bosnian conflict actually exarcerbated the ethnic cleansing and increased the number of Muslim deaths at the hands of the Serbs. Further Clinton would not accede to overtures of peaceful negotiations by Milosevic.
Chomsky would very easily see you as a true beleiver in the most fundamental misapplication of reciprocity and generality in ethics. Namely, What applies to you also applies to me. The US beleives itsef exempt from that proposition and you along with it.
Those that are unable to generalize this ethical rule are convinced that, because the US is inherently well meaning and fundamentally good then its use of military force is justified and in any case used only as a last resort. Even if ham handed at times, the US always means well. But at the same time these people are convinced that the very same methods when carried out by others are evil and condemnable.
I think that you really don’t need to worry about whether the left can pursue its agenda of alleviating the problems that beset the country at home and broad if only we threw Chomsky’s ‘Manichean” shortsidedness overboard. One thing you can be certain of is that you will be vastly outnumbered in your followers than Chomsky.
What evidence do you have that any one group, even a misguided one, seized control of the “anti-war” movement?
I have the records of every single major demonstration from October 2001 to February 2003, all of which were totally controlled by ANSWER. The Feb 15, 2003 march in New York, organized by United for Peace and Justice (and attended by me and a few hundred thousand of my friends), was the first one in which ANSWER did not play an organizing role. Is this inside baseball? I guess. And, oddly enough, ANSWER doesn’t merit more than a mention or two in my book. But their presence was very real, even if it wasn’t as visible as Phil Donahue’s firing.
And to answer eCAHNonomics @ 40, this is not a question of the left being held to a higher standard of perfection. ANSWER grew out of a neo-Stalinoid sect that was originally formed to support the Soviet invasion of Hungary and protest Khrushchev’s revelation of Stalin’s crimes at the 20th Party Congress. It was unreal — they were like something out of Monty Python. Yes, the antiwar movement would have been demonized even if it were led by little old ladies from Pasadena. But ANSWER was just a gift to the hard jingoist right.
Much of that is a hangover from the Communist/Socialist belief the democracy and capitalism are but waystations on the road to the workers’ paradise, and to participate in electoral politics is to be a sellout. I was on the old “Socialist Liberty” message boards back in the mid-to-late ’90s, and the hardcore Communists were berating poor old David McReynolds of the War Resisters League for running for president — not because he didn’t have a prayer, but because by taking part in the system, he was helping perpetuate something that needed to be cleared from the stage as soon as possible.
The leftover vibrations from this mindset have trickled down through the left for decades. It’s one reason why lefty activists bailed out of electoral politics in the 1970s and got into single-issue activism. It’s also why the conservatives have been kicking our asses. (Notice that in 2000, Nader took nearly seven times as many votes from Gore as Buchanan took from Bush.)
The title of the book is testimony enough that the war mongers won. It can’t be a disagreement, it has to be a war.
Here you are in the blogosphere and you fundamentally misunderstand what it is. Surprisingly, we are not waiting here for either talking points or mood music from some self-appointed group of deep thinkers, who think we are too lame to understand an argument or analyze evidence.
The past ain’t dead. It ain’t even past. The left uses the same failed techniques that turned off the American public in the late 1960s, rejecting the proven success of techniques used by Dr. Martin Luther King earlier in the decade.
I have other things going on, but I can’t not respond. I haven’t read earlier comments.
Like Selise, I’m not terribly far from the Chomskyian left. I’ve even thought of my role as trying to bring a semi-Chomskyian point of view to the netroots, though I’ve basically given up on that.
To me the split between the Left and the Democratic Party is a disaster, but I don’t really blame the Left. The Democratic Party really is closed to anything much to the left of Al Franken, who’s a very sensible, mainstream, pro-Israel guy. I just don’t see that this is because Chomsky or the puppet hippies have driven the left away. A substantial, probably dominant chunk of the Democrats is opposed to any anti-war positions at all. Some of them it is purely and simply because they’re hawks, whereas others take that position for tactical reasons.
My reading is that we’re locked in to a multi-decade war against whoever, and that we’ve been moving stepwise toward that position ever since 1898. Every war since then has put the end to the radical movements of its time (the Populists, the Debs Socialists et al, the 30s radical groups, and the Civil Rights movement and the New Left). In some cases repression was accompanied by co-optation, but not during the last 30 years. The job has been done and cooptation isnlt necessary with a volunteer military. Repression is hardly even needed.
The reason we’re talking about Serbia is that that was a Democratic war. Republicans let their partisanship trumpt their hawkishness, so for once Democratic doves seemed to be players. But no Republican war can be opposed, regardless of how we do it or who does it. And military policy ALWAYS trumps domestic policy. (Semi off-topic: Bush II put his war off-budget, even though Cheney explicitly stated that it would be a long, multi-decade war. If you plan for permanent war, theoretically you should budget it. But busting the budget will help preclude domestic spending, so that’s what they did).
In 1990 and after I remember the discussions about “What will the military and intelligence services do without the USSR?” There was real panic. That problem has been solved for those people.
It depends on what the message is. I agree with Chomsky about 88 percent of the time (rough estimate), and in the book I argue that he deserves some kind of Lifetime Achievement Award. But his work on the Balkans is really a stain on a very fine reputation, and I’ll give you just one small example. In one of his post-9/11 interviews, he says about the Islamists who fought in Afghanistan (with US support, of course), “The ‘Afghanis’ did not terminate their activities, however. They joined Bosnian Muslim forces in the Balkan Wars; the U.S. did not object, just as it tolerated Iranian support for them, for complex reasons that we need not pursue here, apart from noting that concern for the grim fate of the Bosnians was not prominent among them.” Those “complex reasons” turn out to be an argument that the US was supporting radical Islamists to destabilize the Balkans just as we supported them to fight the USSR in Afghanistan. But it happens to be false. In reality, the Dayton Accords explicitly called for all foreign parties (that would be the Islamists who joined Bosnian Muslim forces) to leave the area within 30 days.
I could go on — it took me years to get to the bottom of some of Chomsky’s claims about the Balkans — but my point is that I will help spread his message whenever I think he’s right.
Should be “I just don’t see that this is because Chomsky or the puppet hippies have driven the DEMOCRATS away.”
Yeah, and General Anthony Zinni, who was saying some great things at the time as well.
Hugh – for what it’s worth, I’m not only a blogger, but an academic who studies blogs, and the results are inarguable. Blog influence (whether measured by number of readers or numbers of incoming links) is distributed according to a ‘power law.’ What that means, in plain language, is that there is a vast difference between a small number of blogs or bloggers who get a hell of a lot of attention, and a much greater number of blogs and bloggers who get little or no attention, except when one of the big blogs tosses a link in their direction. Some people (see Matthew Hindman’s book “The Myth of Digital Democracy”) argue that this means that blogs are in fact more elitist than the mainstream media. I think that this is wrong – and I do think that blogs are important as a source of countervailing power, that interesting ideas do often float up to the top and so on. But if you think that this is a marketplace of ideas in which who has which idea isn’t important, then I’m sorry, but the evidence shows that you are completely, incontrovertibly, wrong. See for example my paper with two colleagues here for evidence – but this is a general finding, that everyone who studies this stuff has replicated. The blogosphere has a lot of democratic value, but it is not, and never will be, a democracy of ideas.
As SIGIR’s Stuart Bowen has pointedly said… No viable trace of intelligence can be found anywhere… From the pre-invasion to post occupation…!
Must be the topic, I think this is the most testy book salon I’ve read. Thank you Mr. Berube for your information.
Again, Chomsky is pretty damn good at pointing out things his fellow Americans don’t know or don’t want to know, and I think his M.O. is just right when it’s a question of getting your fellow citizens to understand that their government is funding death squads in Central America, killing the wretched of the earth and some American nuns as well. But even still, when he’s mistaken, he’s mistaken. One more case in point. A June 2006 interview in which he said, apropos of the Balkans and the ICC,
That’s not right. Here’s what the the April 2002 report of the Netherlands Institute for War Documentation (NIOD), to which Chomsky refers here, actually says:
Chomsky has never said a word in support of Milosevic, but this kind of thing has unfortunately given cover to people who do. Again, for those of us who grew up on his antiwar work w/r/t Vietnam and Central America, the Balkans stuff is just dismaying.
One of the things that too many persons on the left just refuse to understand is how the whole levitate-the-Pentagon crowd pissed off typical Americans, even those who agreed with them politically. I wonder how the antiwar movement might have gone had Dr. King not been assassinated.
I think you misunderstand my point. I don’t think ANSWER was ever a very important part of the anti-war movement. Great it organized ineffectual demonstrations. But it had little to do with the opposition to the war on the net because the blogosphere came into existence after the war began and in reaction to the frustration of many who could not trust any of the traditional sources of information and analysis, not government, not the media, and not academia. We just were never dominated by the internecine conflicts you describe.
i tried making the argument re organizing and the possibility of finding allies among those who attended the teaparties (see for example here, here and here) last april (i also objected to the mocking and sexual slurs) and got nowhere. i hope that has changed and am glad if it has.
I think “teabaggers” doesn’t actually describe much any more, and some precision is needed in articulating that question:.
1) The original “tea party” was an action by Ron Paul libertarians that predated the Fox version.
2) In the wake of the bank bailouts and the AIG bonus scandal, “tea parties” became co-opted by Rick Santelli, Fox News and well-funded right wing operatives as a vehicle for promoting general discontent with the Obama administration. They had a fairly incoherent message and attracted those sporting a variety of objections having nothing to do with economic issues.
3) At the time of the April tea parties, many (including myself) were concerned that the liberal interest groups who usually engaged in activism against Wall Street malfeasance were AWOL. Because the White House told the labor unions and interest groups to “ratchet down the rhetoric” against the banks, whom Geithner et. al. were attempting to charm into their PPIP scheme, there was no major organization articulating the progressive narrative against the bailouts. Thus, the tea parties became the rallying point for well-justified populist anger against the continued dominance of the political system by Wall Street interests, and attractive to a much broader group of people by virtue of being the only game in town.
It was incredibly short-sighted of the liberal interest groups to sit that one out, no matter what the White House told them. Populist anger against the bank bailouts will only continue to rise as high unemployment and home foreclosures persist. The “tea partiers,” for better or worse, are no longer limited to the anti-Obama Fox News crowd that nurtured them.
that’s not so.
Exactly. I heard Chomskyites and their fellow travelers on Socialist Liberty and other places saying flat-out that Clinton was intervening in Bosnia and Kosovo because of a pipeline of some sort — a pipeline that vanished from discussion once Kosovo was no longer a front-page story. The explanation Clinton himself now gives — that it was out of remorse because he’d allowed the Republicans to scare him away from Somalia and Rwanda when intervention could have saved millions of lives — doesn’t register with them.
In the meantime, the right-wing anti-Kosovo interventionist movement in the US was made up of such charmers as the League of the South and other Neo-Confederate groups. Pat Buchanan had a merry old time serving as a bridge between the conservative and liberal anti-Kosovo groups.
Michael,
Thanks for this book. I plan to get it now after skimming through your comments here and the description.
After several years of interacting with many people here at FDL and one other blog, I’ve been surprised this last year at how much you see comments, such as, “Obama did a bait and switch on us!!1!1″ at a place like here where I used to respect the discussion quite a bit. I know from my own experiences in leadership roles in organizations, that it’s really difficult to get things through exactly as you want them, even at the smallest of nonprofits where I’ve been on the Board of Directors. It’s not so hard when you own a business, as I do as well, but any group that’s run democratically, it’s really difficult to keep your own vision intact and not compromised.
In that context, are you aware of any President, or maybe even any member of Congress, that’s been able to enact legislation exactly as they said they would during their campaigns?
If the answer is no, or barely any, it’s seems quite unreasonable to me for many to suggest after 11 months that Obama is a lying bastich, as I’d suggest is the prevailing opinion around here. The last “truth rating” I saw at some MegaMedia outlet actually scored Obama quite high compared to other Presidents in living up to his promises so far.
Yes, so, and you must be kidding.
I’m quite sure that Chomsky has many times more followers than I do. But I’m also sure that those followers need better information on the Balkans than you display here. The canard that the NATO war caused atrocities in Kosovo, rather than responded to them, is a particularly tenacious one. The Balkan crisis, of course, did not begin with NATO bombing, though the anti-intervention left likes to start the clock in 1998 so as not to deal with Vukovar, Sarajevo, or Srebrenica — as Adrian Hastings pointed out some years ago.
For the record, I agree with Hastings’ critique of Chomsky in that review essay, just as I agree with Hastings’ argument that “the general character of modern American foreign policy … is largely abhorrent.” Because it really is possible to criticize Chomsky on the merits without falling back into foolishnesses about the essential goodness and rightness of all things American. And people who think otherwise — that you’re either with Chomsky 100 percent or you’re a shallow jingoist cheerleader — tend to have a kinda Manichean world view, I think.
maybe it was different in other parts of the country. but i don’t think that was ever the case here (see my links above)
Indeed. In fact, the lefty part of the blogosphere evolved out of message boards such as The Fray on Slate and Salon’s The Well and Table Talk. Atrios got his first readers from Table Talk members when he posted as “Kurt Foster”.
Mr. Berube,
On what basis should anyone ever trust the U.S. Government?
Everyone is encouraged to reply.
And the fact that the intertoobz are dominated by large organizations is irrelevant to the usage that we put them to. Large orgs come to dominate most things. The point is whether there is still room for those who will not be dominated by large orgs. And so far, the internet is.
Societal change does not stem from the majority, who are happy with the way things are. It comes from much smaller groups who will persevere. It’s easier to organize that on the internet than by using previously available tools.
Hugh, if you have a counter-argument, and counter-evidence to what I’ve presented and linked to, let’s hear it (maybe ‘I am rubber and you are glue’ does it for you, but it doesn’t do it for me).
That’s entirely right about the hard right- hard left convergence on Kosovo, and as I argue in chapter 3, it raises exceptionally difficult questions for the Manicheans. Not because they had unsavory bedfellows; everyone had unsavory bedfellows (imagine my ick factor when I realized, after gradually coming to support that war after initial opposition, that I was now on the same side as Madeleine Albright and The New Republic). Rather, it posed a severe challenge to their sense that there isn’t a dime’s worth of difference between the major parties in the US. As I put it in the book:
Would you like to throw out a date for the birth of the blogosphere? I know that in most of the discussions I have had on the subject most date there participation to some time in or around the Iraq war. There may have been a smaller version of it out there before but the real flowering of it took off as a reaction to Iraq.
.
I went to a bunch of those. Neither I nor anyone else was in any visible “controlled by ANSWER,” so could you please explain the invisible sense in which we were?
But it had little to do with the opposition to the war on the net because the blogosphere came into existence after the war began and in reaction to the frustration of many who could not trust any of the traditional sources of information and analysis, not government, not the media, and not academia.
Fair enough, but I wasn’t talking about antiwar opposition in the blogosphere, so we’re starting our clocks (and our accounts) from different positions. But I agree with you totally about the rise of the blogosphere from left and liberal frustration with what amounted to a media blackout.
it’s not just chomsky on the balkans — for example there is also george kenney (who had previously worked for state in yugoslavia).
but i’m curious. if you’ll give me a link to whatever you think is the best counter argument, i’ll read it.
I don’t distrust your data. Even here those with name recognition get more responses.
However I believe even your folks are missing the real power of communication in what I will call the “sub blogosphere” Smaller networks of folks of like minds who manage to find each other and communicate. There are tons out there and folks are talking and acting without having ever heard of Chomsky or Cockburn. Some grow and some wither. But there are more than you imagine who are not trying to manipulate the blogosphere but understand the world..
I agree. And to understand this you simply have to explore historically what this “reaapolitik” has always been predicated on.
This:
1]
The “most favorable business climate” interests of Wall Street—and the manner in which it is linked systemically to crony capitalism in Washington
2]
The role the military industrial complex plays in sustaining the “war economy” at home and abroad.
The “Manichean Left” may go about it crudely [and ideologically] at times but their portrayal of American foreign policy as rooted in imperialism is historically right on the money. Just follow the history of the Monroe Doctrine over the lenght and breadth of the 20th century to see how is works—efficiently and brutally.
i only started reading in late 2001 / early 2002 so that was before my time. but i do remember early references to table talk.
Ever hear of the old Compuserve?
Oh yes, I completely agree with this. But what this suggests to me is that the blogosphere’s uses are threefold. First, that it does generate ideas which would otherwise not get much circulation, given the realities of commercial media (although as many blogs get folded into commercial media, this advantage may weaken). Second, that it creates collective identity and the possiblity of large scale collective action. Third, that it makes it easier for small groups to find each other and engage in smaller scale group projects.
Well, I do understand much of the frustration with Obama. He didn’t sell us out on Afghanistan or the economy; pace Matt Taibbi, whom I like very much, Obama did not campaign as an economic progressive. (Remember Austan Goolsbee telling Stephen Harper that Obama’s opposition to NAFTA was just for show?) And of course he promised more troops in Afghanistan, time and time again. But w/r/t to things like DADT and indefinite detention and Dawn Johnsen, he’s failed to deliver on a number of things that are critically important to his leftward flank and don’t require consultation with Ben Nelson and Senator Palpatine. I still haven’t given up entirely, only one year in, and like Nathan Newman I think he’s accomplished more on the progressive front than some people think, but I have to say the frustration has real roots, and Obama had better address those ‘roots sooner rather than later.
*heh* Slate led me to the Orange Satan, which lead me to the soothing waters…! ;-)
Are there people who identify both with the Chomskyan left and with the netroots? Are things changing because of disappointment with Obama?
Short answer: Yes yes yes.
I’ve spent the last eight/nine years of my life in academia (in Canada)–reading Hall and Chomsky and Zizek and Said and Eagleton and all the lefty thinkers and talkers. But I started out as a journalist.
I think the discussion on the American ‘left’–although this frame is starting to feel antiquated to me–should be: (a) how to mobilize the anti-corporate (left?right?centre?) in America to stand up to corporate power in gov’t and elsewhere; and (b) to get your heads out of your arses and make serious connections with the global ‘left’.
I think the central issue–that will mobilize a massive social movement–will be climate change. Climate change was brought on by an out-of-control corporate power elite and by the consumer societies built up in North America and Europe. It was brought on my all the various industrial complexes that are now causing these problems.
In order to create this movement, we need Chomsky, the netroots, academia, activists, poets, artists, journalists, working people, poor people, thinking people, women, men, etc, because all of these people have the same critique of corporate power, and they all make sense. The ‘left’ should stand on its record.
And we don’t need to reinvent the wheel. The most successful social movements of the past (the abolitionists, 1930s unions and labour, Gandhi, MLK) have left us a road map. We just need to transpose this map onto this great organizing tool–the netroots/internet.
As we come to the end of this lively Book Salon,
Michael, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us discussing your new book and The Left.
Henry, Thank you very much for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t bought Michael’s book yet, here is a link.
Thanks all.
On the question of ANSWER: groups of that sort have a policy of doing the paperwork for demonstrations well in advance several times a year. Some of their demos flop and some of them take off. People went to the ANSWER rally because it was there. It was just easier than starting from scratch.
During the Vietnam war the SWP played the same role. They sponsored a lot of the anti-war demonstrations without exactly controlling them. Most people at the demo had no idea who they were.
It’s institutional. Starting a national “Non-Loony-Left Organization For Routinely Scheduling Several Nationwide Demonstrations Every Year Even Though They’ll Usually Fizzle” would solve the problem.
Respectfully, disagreement between academicians, while interesting, just isn’t very useful to my perspective.
It’s not a narrow problem based on what academicians think about theories, but a very broad societal problem that we don’t have a “Peace is Better Than War” mentality, and it’s nurtured in many many ways.
From early on in school, there’s the whole competitive mantra chanted in the for of grades, sports, winnning in general. Other wise, one’s a “loser”, anathema in America.
Also the fundamentlist churches continue to back the idea of “Just War” and so must any candidate desiring Presidency of the US.
Add to that the continual propping up of those deas, “competition” “loser” and “Just War” by mainstream Media, subsidiaries of the very same corporations who make war materials, disagreements on the academic left pale in comparison when it comes down to answering the question of “How Can This Be Changed?”
The answers are multi-pronged and socially based, not on papers about what people said or did about the Balkans 10 years ago.
Don’t mean to be rude, just calling it as I see it.
I’d like to waste an afternoon arguing these points, but, it seems very possible for someone to be naively patronizing … is there a word for that? This reminds me of that
What’s the last war not fought by the US, in support of American multi-nationals taking natural resources from other countries?
Is it the US role in former Yugoslavia in the 1990s?
I’m sure you’re familiar with this: War is a Racket By Gen Smedley Butler
His reversal on FISA, summer before the election, was all you needed to know, in retrospect.
Damn Skippy…! ;-)
In 11 months, that’s true. And he has delivered on so many at the same time. Of course time will tell, but given the mess he was handed I think he’s done great, and he’s still saying he’s just getting warmed up on so many fronts. Again, I submit no President ever has been able to deliver just what they said would do, so not sure why he’s being held to some impossible standard.
By the way, your rendition of “Save the Last Dance for Me” was really good. So multi-talented! heh…
no because i don’t have one. it was before i have any direct experience reading.
based on nothing more than my own reading experience, i’d guess that probably the political sub-blogosphere of mostly self linking big blogs grew out of the combination of technology advances and the 2004 primaries. iirc, at one time there was effectively two blogospheres (based on link analysis) with atrios in both, but most in one or the other. maybe someone like micheal remembers better than i. and pw certainly has more long time reading experience than i do.
Selise, it’s definitely not just Chomsky on the Balkans — it’s a whole mess of people, and I see that Kenney agrees with them. Understood. And I also understand that we’re not talking about the people (leftists! at least soi-disant leftists) who actually formed the International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic — we’re just talking about people who have good reason to be skeptical of US actions and US accounts of US actions. Still, among the best replies to all this, I think, are Adrian Hastings, Ian Williams, and Balkan Witness.
My pleasure
Citing your own paper is hardly an appeal to an objective standard. At best it is only a starting place. There is no need to engage in childish ad hominems. My take is that we are talking at cross purposes. I am basing mine on the evolution of sites like this one over the years and my own work in the blogosphere. Again I can only say that you don’t seem to understand how the blogosphere actually works. Where do these big ideas come from? In July 2008 when I went into opposition against Obama over the FISA Amendments Act, there were very few of us out there. After the election, I was criticized for being against his economic policies because gosh he hadn’t even been inaugurated yet. I wrote in January 2008 that Obama represented the return of Establishment politics. I compared him to Herbert Hoover in February 2008. There are many, many such instances not just of mine but of many others. At this site, we tend to examine what the world will be like in 6 to 18 months and we are often right. Our minority ideas become the majority ones in time. What few were saying last year and was deeply controversial is now said by many. This is the blogosphere I know and operate in. Yours doesn’t correspond to mine at all.
Mahalo, Bev…! *g*
Mahalo Nui Loa to Henry and Michael for taking the time to be here…! *g*
Don’t be strangers…! ;-)
David Dayen is upstairs!
Calls Begin For Washington Post To End Content-Sharing Agreement With Pete Peterson-Funded “Fiscal Times”
Thanks, Bev — and thanks, everyone.
Resolved:
Clintons’s and the West’s Yugoslav adventure was rooted in pure altruism.
No but I will put it on my to google list
What this conflict revolves around in my view is a willingness to explore the relationship between America’s foreign policy and what Marxists call “political economy”. Many in the netroots are basically idealists. They think, “America is a freedom loving, democratic nation and we should go around the world helping other countries to throw off the yokes of tyranny so that their people can embrace freedom and democracy as well.”
Only that has little to do with, for example, the reality of American foreign policy. How else to explain the history of American imperialism, the manner in which America did nothing to end Europeam colonialism in South East Asia, South Asia, the Middle East and Africa. Or our support for autocracies in Iran, Iraq, Jordon, Kiwait, Saudi Arabia, South Korea, the Phillipines, Malaysia, Eygpt. Or the way in which we embrace trade with China while paying mere lip service to democracy there.
To understand American foreign policy you just follow the money. End of story. Or the overwhelming majority of them.
Euphemistically called ‘lilypads’…! 8-(
thanks. (and i have to laugh, because when someone asks me for one link, i’m just as likely to give them three also!). i’ll read at least one of them (depending on the length maybe all three and then check with someone i know (who has proven extremely reliable, fair and honest) who was there at the time.
Yep, I’m one, but I’m not stuck on seeing Democrats in their present incarnation in office. I want to see people who have a leftist socio-economic view in office but I don’t see anyone of that description on the national scene. That said, I won’t vote for a candidate just because s/he’s running as a Dem.
Hmmm, shoulda been watchin’ the time. Got EPU’d.
Sometimes I think when the left discovered the Internet they decided they invented it. (thus explaining Al Gore’s claim).
I agree with your first point but believe your second is more descriptive of the right wings who are always looking for identity and a pseudo intellectual authority to follow.
A look at the discussions on more liberal board suggests collective identity and monolithic belief is not a trait of the left. The relative if not full openness of the left to varying ideas gives power to my “sub-blogosphere” which bubbles up now and then. It is not as much a matter of size or celebrity as it is the capacity for the planners of the more expansive agenda to encompass the authenticity of the ideas and experiences of those who are doers and talkers who cannot remain silent in the face of injustice.
lol. yes but never had an account. vaxnotes was my first experience with what i now think of (although that maybe all wrong) as an earlier bulletin board and precursor to blogging.
Berube is just concern-trolling the left. His book is essentially revenge against all the people who dared criticize him for smearing the left at the start of the Iraq war (Chomsky, Herman, Cockburn, Mahajan, etc.).
For all of you out there unfamiliar with the debate. Fact check everything Michael says, because with regards to his critics (and his past) he’s completely dishonest, hoping people will just take his word rather than find out for themselves.
Go back and read his article in the Boston Globe and Chronicle of Higher Ed. Then read Edward’s Herman various articles on the Cruise Missile Left (Berube is mentioned throughout) to see what got Berube’s panties in a twist.
1.) http://www.zmag.org/zmag/viewArticle/19519
2.) http://www.zmag.org/zspace/commentaries/1434
3.) http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/11300
4.) http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/11295
5.) http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/11278
6.) http://www.zmag.org/zmag/viewArticle/13833
7.) http://www.zmag.org/zmag/viewArticle/13828
8.) http://www.swans.com/library/art9/herman11.html
9.) http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/8538
Clinton:
-overthrow of duly elected Haitian President Aristide
-support of Sukharto in killing of East Timorese civilians
-causing needless deaths of Muslim Bosnians at hands of NATO forces
-cuasing deaths of 500,000 children by collective punishing sanctions against Iraq
-material support of Israeli criminal killing of Palestinians
Obama:
-killing of civilians in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen in the comission of crimes against the peace by unlawful intervention in those countries
-by provideing material support for Istraeli crimes against humanity and collective retribution against a civilian population
You get the picture. If strict laws were applied to American presients nary a one would serve out his term. The support of massive crimes against the Palestininans at the hands of the Israeli jews would serve to condmen them all.
thanks for the links.
well, this was an interesting thread. thanks to all.
As usual, it depends on semantics.
But the software that Compuserve developed for its forums in the 80s would still be better than what we have now. Sadly they had a bad business model and have finally closed their doors.
The CS political forums were quite active and formed many of my habits and have influenced my political views. But I don’t believe there was a lot of integrated political organizing going on. However I chatted with the likes of Bill Buckley, George Gilder, even Rush Limbaugh. Not many celebrity liberals however/ (I think they were still buying their first TV sets –grin–)
Then there were the rings which became more artistic than informational but endure in many personal blogs.
heh how about ICQ?
Fox news was attempting to channel populist libertarian discontent through a GOP filter and transform it into Republican discontent. So the anger at the bank bailouts manifested itself at the early tea party events as rather thinly-veiled “they’re trying to give my taxes to black people” messaging.
Rather than articulating a progressive counter-argument to the persuasive part of the tea party arguments (“the banks pwn us”), Democrats went into a defensive crouch, dismissed the tea partiers for being racist (which they certainly were at times) and defended the bank bailouts as necessary.
That message is not persuasive to those not already predisposed to accept it, and it’s an inadequate response to well-justified concerns that the banks do pwn us. So as the parade of financial outrages continued, the ranks of the tea partiers grew. They have also evolved as a somewhat independent political force contra the GOP (similar to the tension between the Democratic party and progressives). So I do think what they represent today is somewhat different than what they were back then.
That was real late (g)
Thanks, Ben
My thought here is that quite a few on the left are actually working people whose acquaintance with the issues is sufficient to have committed them a specific world-view, but not necessarily enough to engage an intellectual steeped in these issues.
I’d like to suggest that while arrangements are being made as to which authors will be invited to the FDL Book club, that information be made available to the FDL community.
It should make for a far more interesting, fact based discussion!
Very interesting. I’m not gonna read the links because I exhausted my tolerance for academic discussions of angels & pinheads. I got a bad feeling about Berube, for reasons I can’t articulate (though tried a few times), and you are putting some evidence on my feeling.
very cool. i worked for digital during most of the ’80s, so didn’t feel the need to pay for compuserve (although i had friends who did). the only political action i can remember was when a bunch of engineers organized the successful takeover of the employee credit union. but then i was pretty politically clueless/oblivious at that time, so there may have been lots more than i just didn’t know about / pay attention to.
Henry, thanks
Michael, I got dragged away to fix dinner, so sorry I disengaged. I found the book provocative. Thanks for joining us.
Pretty amazing how easily the progressives have allowed O&R to intimidate them. Hardly a profile in courage to be found.
See my 137 to Henry.
And adding. Your taking the lead in encouraging us to stop and listen and join in common cause is the example that proves or at least gives hope to my belief in the openness of the progressive cause to all.
The schedule is posted months in advance. Is that not good enough?
In fact talking to all those right wingers helped to to understand just how bonkers they are.
i have no doubt the tea parties have changed (have you seen warren mosler get people cheering for fed financed jobs programs? his short speeches have been a thing of beauty).
but last april, i don’t think “rather thinly-veiled “they’re trying to give my taxes to black people” messaging” characterized the local (and very big) protests. may have been very different in other parts of the country though — i’m not claiming regional conformity.
p.s. your explanation of the dem party response adds a lot to my understanding of what was going on then. thanks.
nope. something else i missed out on.
Plenty good enough, thanks.
makes me wonder though, why so much substantial, hard hitting factual information arrived in the form of links only after the author bid us a farewell.
Obamas approval rating has gone up among Democrats since last year. People that freak out on the left fringe do nothing to help the party and they are not the BASE. LEAVE.
The current Health Care Plan is more Progressive than Howard Dean’s 2004 plan. FACT
He’s been in office for a little over nine months. When he took office, an economic crisis that nearly took down the entire country and was predicted to last for years is turning around in large part because of the actions he’s taken. A world that had written off America as an incorrigible bully for its policies of “pre-emptive self-defense” are now coming to the table to talk about how countries can work together to solve the problems of nuclear proliferation, global warming and poverty.
Yes, it’s early days. But honestly, it’s a different world from the one we were living in a year ago.
Well, I like everyone else, have other things to do. (But I have fewer excuses, as I and only I get to decide what I do every day.) So I forget to look at what’s coming up on Book Salon. Can’t describe the color of the bruises on my backside from kicking myself for not being better prepared.
I haven’t seen you here before, so welcome if you’re new.
It’s the ethic here to provide links supporting statements like the one of yours I quoted. Thanks.
Um, Clinton tried to stop the overthrow of Aristide and worked to get him reinstated — only to see him toppled again by Jesse Helms’ buddies in 2001 and Haiti descend once again into lawlessness.
Thanks, eCAHN.
yes definitely.
And I routinely read Chomsky for his depth of analysis. To trivialize his work is the height of stupidity in my view.
His critiques are very harsh against US policy excatly because of the enormous death and devastation it causes. Apologists looking for some silver lining and good intentions gone awry are just useless.
Over 2 million dead in Viet Nam and deforestaion and land mines left deliberately unaccounted for. Over 1 million dead in Iraq and nuclear tipped weaponry litering the countryside. Nearly 1 million dead in Haiti by overthrowing a socially conscious priest, and other thousands killed in Panama, and hundred thousands killed in Palestine and more in the Balkans and Afghanistan. After a while it begins to add up.
To have someone pretend that in spite of all this there is no design by the US behind this wanton killing, is just absurd. To say the US means well after all is cynicism to the extreme. But I guess Chomsky is just being too shrill.
Right now I’m watching Cockburn make an ass of himself by claiming that human-caused global climate change is a myth. Sorry, I think I’ll pass.
any relation to Craig Berube, the hockey player (goon) ???
*g*
Which Cockburn? And where?
I’m the base. Don’t tell me I’m not the base, man. I phone banked for him, knocked on doors, did voter protection in FL, gave him $$. The health care reform bill blows and he’s bullshitting about it and showed no balls (i.e leadership). I had high expectations and now I have none. I’m voting with my feet next year and we’ll see how influential Obama is and whether the Dems don’t get creamed. (They will.) He better not take my 2012 vote for granted.
Oh yeah. I ain’t alone.
.and welcome to The Lake.
and probably 3 million in russia. but that was economic war.
http://www.lancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(09)60005-2/fulltext
I thought I was a little more polite. *g*
And, anyone, what’s with all these accents aigu over Berube’s name. Was he born in France?
sadly true, Alexander Cockburn is a climate change denier, – doesn’t make him wrong on all other counts, though.
They were added “circumflexively.” *g*
Phoenix Woman,
The links I posted were written by Edward Herman, not Alexander Cockburn. Regarding Cockburn, I agree with you that a number of his views are loathsome. However, he is not in the same category as Herman, whose intelligence and integrity are extremely consistent. I only mentioned Cockburn in my earlier post, because he’s one of Berube’s targets, and I thought readers should be aware of some of the background pertaining to Michael’s book. Additionally, as wrong as Cockburn can often be, in my opinion Cockburn’s criticisms of Berube were on target, albeit not as thoughtful as Herman’s.
Doubt it. I just Giggled the guy and Wiki’d him. Know what? We went to the same fucking high school (not in France). he was 2 years behind me so I guess we were there at the same time. Don’t remember him.
Actually, we had that when Dr. King was alive; what people don’t realize is that he spent the last years of his life organizing opposition to the Vietnam War. It was only after his death that the folks that set mainstream America’s teeth on edge really came to the fore.
During the civil rights movement, African-Americans who took part in marches, sit-ins, or any sort of public action, knew that they had to appear in their best Sunday churchgoing clothes. (As Maha of the Mahablog notes, this was done at Dr. King’s express request: http://www.mahablog.com/2007/01/16/augment-the-objections/#comments)
This was the ultimate job interview, and their goal was to impress the people reading about them in the newspapers or watching them on TV with how sober-minded, serious and responsible they were. Even the signs they carried came from professional print shops.
It worked: Their fellow Americans saw the marchers and were impressed by their responsible demeanor. LBJ was able to push through the Voting and Civil Rights Acts in large part because of the sober-minded and adult demeanor of the marchers.
Then came the hippies. The “levitate the Pentagon” types. The trust-fund babies who went around with long stringy hair and beards and an aroma of pot and unwashed body. They did a very good job — of turning off Middle America. They helped elect Richard Nixon, who then proceeded to keep America in the very war the Pentagon-levitators protested. Eric Alterman notes: (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14134971/#060808)
This is borne out by a study done in the immediate aftermath of the Kent State shootings. It may be shocking to some of us today to realize that a non-trivial portion of Americans had no problems with students and protesters being shot to death by the National Guard, but the study shows exactly that (http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICDocs/data/ericdocs2sql/content_storage_01/0000019b/80/36/83/e5.pdf). This was in large part because many Americans feared that — in the wake of the assassinations of JFK, Malcolm X, MLK, RFK, and other prominent figures — the country was falling apart, and order had to be restored somehow.
And yet we have, four decades later, the same people (or their spiritual heirs) doing the same schticks with the same utter lack of awareness (or concern) at how the rest of the country sees them.
Just checked his wiki. He was born in NYC.
To his credit he was on Horowitz’s 100 most dangerous profs.
We don’t need nor did we ask for no friggin mood music. Yeah, I like that.
Thank you Michael for defending the drunks in US security. After all, not all drunk drivers kill people.
Interesting that you didn’t know him. The school is very small.
Nice.
I was “grave“ly punning on your “acute” point when I wrote “circumflexively” *g*
Shoulda been linkier first…
Uh-huh.
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1899
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1881
It is. Didn’t know that other guy who was there at the time either.
Don’t take my word on it, but I’m pretty sure Berube made the list because he spammed a poll on Horowitz’s website asking his readers “Who is the most dangerous professor.” In other words, he nominated himself. But, unlike my criticisms of Berube, on this point my memory is extremely hazy.
I just wanna know if he’s related to the hockey player. Doubt that, too.
Oh dear. That would be precious (if true). One has to try so hard for one 15 minutes of fame.
Thanks for these superb descriptions of those times.
Suharto not Sukharto (nor Sukarno, who had his own concept of Malay expansionism thwarted a decade earlier). And the killing had been going on since Indonesia invaded Dili in the mid 1960′s. There was no need for Clinton to “encourage” Suharto to do this. And contrary to Chomsky, the recently released recordings of the Ford-Kissinger-Suharto meetings in Jakarta in the 1970′s show that Suharto first broached the question “Would the US intervene if we invaded Timor to eliminate the Communist elements there” and Ford said no. Basically it was giving Indonesia, which has their own imperialist concept of Pan-Malay nationhood, an open door. Suharto was concerned the US would OPPOSE his invasion. He didn’t need to be “pushed”.
Clinton actually was essential to getting the UN Referenda in the 1990′s that allowed the Nationalists to come to power. He supported the Australian peace-keepers being deployed to prevent the pro-Indonesia militias from turning the country into a bloodbath. It prevented a “Rwanda”.
That’s right, Rush, it’s all the fault of the hippies. I’m sorry I didn’t wear a suit and tie when I demonstrated against the Vietnam war in D.C.. It would have been a little uncomfortable riding all night in that rickety bus, sitting on the ground, enduring whatever the weather threw at me, etc., but you would have approved.
Got a funny Rambouillet story. I arrived at the Intercontinental Hotel in London after breakfast in Geneva, lunch in Zurich, afternoon meeting outside of London. My suitcase had gone missing the night before. When I went to check in, the clerk’s eyes started spinning in his head and he told me my room was not guaranteed for late arrival (not accurate). Anyhow, manager was called, she told me there were no rooms at the inn, but they would transport me, at their expense, to the other Intercontinental in London. I said it was pointless, as my dinner companion was going to meet me at THAT Intercontinental, I’d just wait for him there, and head to the other Intercontinental after dinner, and BTW, they had to track down my suitcase.
As I was loitering in the lobby, I noticed quite a few beefy flatfoots with buttons in their ears. Then a scrum of them scurried out the lobby surrounding a dumpy blond woman. It was right before Rambouillet, the dumpy blond was Albright, and the Intercontinental in question was the one only a couple of blocks from the U.S. embassy. I had been bumped by Albright.
Do you not think the Civil Rights demonstrators rode buses all night to mass events?
The “hippies” were not simply in opposition to the war or pacifists as was Dr. King. And they stood in opposition to many cultural values not related to the war.
To be honest a lot of the war protesters were more concerned about their own hide being drafted and sent into combat. than general principles of human rights. I actually applaud them for that however in that they at least took seriously enough their own worth to the point of opposing the elders who would throw them in the volcano with praise and worship.
Yes after 3 assassinations a lot of us were anxious and I think many did vote for Nixon because they believed he would restore order.
Emptywheel is upstairs!
It All Depends on Your Definition of Failure
Michael Berube’s Left:
The Gaza War and Proportionality
Michael Walzer
http://www.dissentmagazine.org/online.php?id=191
“It appears that there is a leftThese are the questions that point us toward the important limits. First, before the war begins: Are there other ways of achieving the end-in-view? In the Israeli case, this question has shaped the intense political arguments that have been going on since the withdrawal from Gaza: What is the right way to stop the rocket attacks? How do you guarantee that Hamas won’t acquire more and more advanced rocketry? Many policies have been advocated, and many have been tried.
Second, once the fighting begins, who is responsible for putting civilians in the line of fire? It is worth recalling that in the Lebanon war of 2006, Kofi Anan, then the Secretary-General of the UN, though he criticized Israel for a “disproportionate” response to Hezbollah’s raid, also criticized Hezbollah—not just for firing rockets at civilians but also for firing them from heavily populated civilian areas, so that any response would inevitably kill or injure civilians. I don’t think that the new Secretary General has made the same criticism of Hamas, but Hamas clearly has a similar policy.
~~~EDITED FOR LENGTH HERE~~~
~~~ModNote: Please limit excerpts of copyrighted material to 200 words, keeping FDL within Fair Use limits. Thanks.~~~
Your clarification is a bit wanting.
Was Chomsky wrong in saying that just as the US colluded and was happy to see the Islamists (as you refer to them) fight the Russians in Afghanistan, the US was equally happy for these same Islamists to be fighting against the Russion sponsored Serbs?
Was he wrong in that claim? Did the US take any action to quell the newly arrived Islamists from siding with their fellow Muslims against Milosevic? And in fact didn’t these same Islamists have a right to defend their fellow Muslims that were being slaughterd by the Serbs?
By the way, when I speak of the US I refer, as does Chomsky, to the US government not the US population, who nearly always are opposed to the military intervention of the government. And it is not enough to say that the Accords asked everyone to step back from the conflict, that in itself would not accomplish much.
And anyone who thinks, like whities, that nicely dressed Negroes won the day for civil rights, conveniently forgets the pivotal role of much more confrontational role of Black Panthers and SNCC.
Yep. Accords. Plz step back while the U.S. takes over. Works for me. /s
You obviously discount the power of non-violence and know little of the King movement.. Respecting self and setting a non-hostile tone was the point of their demeanor and dress.
Frankly a lot of us who labored for racial equality here in the south were not only disturbed by the violence and threat of such by those organizations you mention but were also turned off by the Liberal intellectual elites embracing them.
I don’t discount it. Quite the reverse. Only saying that there were a plethora of movements that contributed to the outcome, and to attribute the whole to nicely dressed polite Negroes is a particularly whitey spin. ALL of the above worked, not one or the other.
You seem to be missing a big and obvious point Choamsky makes again and again. He does not merely chronicle atrocities comitted by the US government either by comission or omission, for the mere sake of enlightenment. He maintains that the problem lies in these atrocities never being acknowledged as such by the political class, including many on the left.
In this view the US may commit errors but the underlying motivation is always to do good. This is an unacceptible way to interpret what is going on. These blinkers need to be lifted. And if it is justifiable for the US to invade Iraq and kill 1 million innocent civilians without provocation then the Iraqi’s have the same right to invade the US for that purpose.
The principle of universality in ethics applies to everyone.
So in the FDL tradition, here’s a link to folks who participated in those other movements that you considered so counterproductive.
The inability of the U.S. to acknowledge the consequences of its actions, and the complete ignorance of U.S. actions by many U.S. voters, are at the heart of blowback. Blowback isn’t just consequencees for actions. It’s the shock created when the consequenes arrive because no one has ever acknowledged the precipitatiing event.
read your first link. sorry, but i found it unpersuasive. i guess i was looking for some evidence that chomsky (and kenny) were wrong on the matter of the facts cited (lies told about the number of dead, etc).
and this, in hindsight (it was published in 2001), i find especially aggravating:
and later…
i’m afraid that, for me at least, you’ve helped make chomsky and herman’s case for them.
I am offended by this comment, even though I accept it is well intended and comes from ignorance. You appear to see MLK as an Uncle Tom or at least assume that is how I prefer to see him. I assure you that anyone who knew him or saw any of the marches know he and his followers were full courageous men. Here is a link to some of his writings. Also I suggest you make an effort to know John Lewis.
The power of non-violence is that it is redemptive for the oppressor. Not that it threatens body, limb and property.
I do not wish to carry this any further but suggest you do some reading of original material.
Oh, this ZNet silliness again. OK, so here’s my first response to Ed Herman, and here’s my second. Funny you don’t cite those. And as for this @ 185:
Don’t take my word on it, but I’m pretty sure Berube made the list because he spammed a poll on Horowitz’s website asking his readers “Who is the most dangerous professor.” In other words, he nominated himself. But, unlike my criticisms of Berube, on this point my memory is extremely hazy.
Your memory is indeed hazy: Horowitz included me in his book all on his own. You really should consult that book, rather than relying on your memories of internet polls.
And while your memory is hazy, your political judgment is much worse. See, Noam Chomsky is an intellectual giant. But Ed Herman is merely a thug. His Srebrenica denialism has been well-documented, and even uber-leftist Louis Proyect, who despises me and pretty much everything I stand for, has come around to realize that Herman is precisely the kind of reactionary fool who will go to the mat for Ahmadinejad when the occasion presents itself.
When I criticize people like Ed Herman, I’m not concern-trolling “the left.” I’m calling attention to reactionaries who claim to be “on the left” but who will shill for any despot, ludicrous (like Ahmadinejad) or murderous (like Milosevic), who opposes the US.
Just for the record.
http://history1900s.about.com/cs/mlkspeeches/
Sorry about the link.
And here is another http://www.42explore2.com/king.htm
Yeah, in my book I note how Hastings’ citation of Blair unfortunately makes the Manichean case, since Blair was chief among those who took the Balkans as a template for the invasion of Iraq. But don’t cherry-pick that review, now: please explain how the liberation of East Timor later in 1999 proves Chomsky’s case that Kosovo could not have been a humanitarian operation because no one was pressing for humanitarian intervention in East Timor, and then please explain why Chomsky was right to start his analysis of the Balkans in 1999 instead of 1991, so that he didn’t have to account for the shift in US/ NATO policy over the course of the decade. If you’re in the mood, you might also want to take up the question of why Joschka Fischer, icon of the German Greens, decided to support international intervention in Kosovo — but, like me and unlike Blair, flatly refused to accept the case for war in Iraq.
I disagree with Walzer on Gaza. But I agree with this from his 1983 book Spheres of Justice:
You’d be aware of that if you read my book, of course.
Don’t at all regard MKL as Uncle Tom, quite unlike several others of more recent vintage who could be named.
Am only saying that nonviolent resistence is one, and only one, tool in the kitbag. And just because nonviolence is the only tool that appeals to the left, does not mean we shouldn’t acknowledge the contribution made by those who were more violent.
I adhere to no universal theory of when violence is productive vs. the reverse. I tend to think that when the USG uses violence, it is almost always counterproductive. WRT internal struggles, not sure where to draw the line.
You misread my comment and seem to be protesting a bit too much.
I said the NATO bombing exacerbated the ethnic cleansing of Bosnian Muslims at the hands of the Serbs and increased the number of atrocities and deaths against the Muslim population, as was predicted. This fact Chomsky documents by citing the timeline of the actual number of fatalites and warnings that were made at the time.
By misreading clear information you will not garner more adherents to your view that NATO was pure at heart. You may believe that NATO, whose mission was never meant to militarily intervene into the Balkans, had pure humanitarian motives and only inadvertently caused needless harm, but military action was not needed and peaceful overtures were not entertained.
It is a bit telling also, that you can only offer a very diluted example for your general view that it is extreme to disallow the possibility that the US may at least every now and then to be a force for good in the world through the use of war.
Any problem with the interpretation that U.S. (i.e., U.S. puppet’s NATO) was nothing more than kicking ass in Yugoslavia?
Good points,
But I would quibble and maintain that economic issues will more likely serve as the platform for a movement by the left. The way in which the government has been exposed as colluding with business against the public is the best current issue around which popular action can unite.
And the one that the teabaggers dominate and the lefties are invisible.
At the point of injecting itself into the situation with a protracted bombing campaign aimed at allegedly preventing ethnic cleansing, the casualties count was about 2000, all parties involved.
“Under the heading “intifada fatalities” the statistics tell the sad story of seven years of violence in the dry language of mathematics. The numbers speak of all the Israelis and Palestinians – human beings – whose lives were cut short by the atrocities of their neighbors. All summed up, 6035 men, women and children have been killed as a result of the hostilities in what was once called the promised land.”
Why has the US not only not invaded Israel, but unfailingly continued to support it in its land grabs and excessive use of force, although the above numbers would easily fit the ‘ethnic cleansing’ argument for action?
Michael Berube:
“the readers of this blog—and, yes, many, many other fine bloggers as well—set out over the past four days to cast their votes in his silly “online poll” and elect me “America’s Worstest Ever Professor.” This enterprise had not one but two goals. The first, of course, was to elect me “America’s Worstest Ever Professor.”
Of course, I’m sure you’ll claim your promotions of the poll was just a joke or an attempt to show how stupid Horowtiz is — after all it couldn’t have anything to with your incredible vanity, right Michael?
In that case, my memory was correct. And so was my characterization of Herman’s intelligence and integrity. Since, as your last comment proves, you’re fond of appeals to authority, I’ll mention that Herman has co-authored a number of books with, in your words, an “intellectual giant.” And indeed he was the lead author of “Manufacturing Consent,” which is probably the most important work of media criticism written in the modern era. What have YOU accomplished exactly? As far as I can see, the extent of your activism, both before and after the war, has been to smear the left. If you raged against war as much as you did the left, it might be easier to see your book as more than vindictive concern-trolling against your intellectual superiors.
To everyone lurking in the comment section: please fact-check all of Michael’s smears regarding Herman and Chomsky (which have been answered extensively by numerous authors, including Herman himself). As I said before, he’s hoping most people will take his word (and the word of other hacks of his ilk), rather than investigating for themselves.
For those who’d rather not spend the necessary hours investigating arcane facts and counter-facts, read the links I posted at “139″ and compare Herman’s steady dispassionate logic and array of facts with Berube’s desperate smears and judge for yourself who’s serious and who’s not.
The only suits I saw at Resurrection City were worn by the elites, black and white.
Thanks selise,
Not much question now about the idiocy we were being asked to swallow. “Military humanism” I have to confess, I am not familiar with that idea, but if it’s good enough for Tony Blair well hell what’s not to like.
I see now what Obama was getting at. Kill people for the betterment of makind. That should do it.
Sorry, I haven’t read your book yet, but, this just jiggled something in my memory banks, thanks. I’m looking forward to read what you say in your book about the dispute in the East Timor Sea regarding oil and gas reserves
Then, here is a leader of Australia’s Green Party, who said
It’s funny and always a complete coincidence how disputes regarding natural resources are usually involved and lead to military interventions. I dunno, but, this seems to reinforce what I said in a comment above
My point, is not that there were not atrocities, my point, is the coincidence of the economic disputes involved prior to the military interventions. I’m looking forward to reading the chapter on this
I actually missed a lot of Bush’s first term. I was served with divorce papers starting the process to end my 20-year marriage two days after 9/11, so I was otherwise occupied when the world fell apart at that point. I’ve ordered the book to see what I missed.
As for the dissolution of Yugoslavia, it’s typical for outside powers to exacerbate religious and ethnic differences in order to divide and conquer. Scrolling back fifty years to WWII one can find the political divisions of Yugoslavia imposed by the Nazis to be quite similar to what the results of the Balkans War have been. Funny how Tudjman and Isebegovic were both residua of the fascist past of the region and national heroes for their little nations born of the charnel house. The ultimate reason why it was “necessary” for the West’s military force to defeat Serbia wasn’t all that different than the reasons Germany had in the 40s. All this is not an apologia for the Serbs beyond the fact that people behave badly during wars.
By the way, Professor Berube, I was the guy who worked the midnight shift in the late seventies at the Postal Concentration Center in San Francisco with the drummer on “More Today Than Yesterday”.
my fundamental question is this: was chomsky (and kenney) right or wrong on the issues of fact (lies to the public, number of deaths, international law, etc)? we can all have our own interpretation of those facts (and lots of discussions about our interpretations), if they are indeed true. if they are, then i would now argue that the war was wrong, regardless of the motivations of the participants (although, i confess, at the time i wasn’t paying much attention). which was why i was interested to know if you dispute those facts which seem the most important to me.
still, i’ll give a go at responding to your questions since you were kind enough to respond to mine.
re east timor. i don’t think it proves anything. rather, it is part of a larger picture that helps provide some context in interpreting the war. i will note that, if the reports i’ve read are correct, genocide had already taken place in east timor (with about 1/3 of the population killed). whereas, if i understand correctly, chomsky and kenney are saying that claims re genocide (or mass graves) in yugoslavia were either grossly overstated or simply untrue. it’s not unreasonable, i think, to question the humanitarian impulses that take a faux genocide so much more seriously than the real one — when it was actually happening (that would be prior to 1999).
re 1991. i don’t know that chomsky was right about where to start. but i also don’t understand why a shift in policy would make a difference in the questions that matter most to me. hastings doesn’t tell me much and i don’t find what reads to me as some kind of liberal guilt (it’s all about us and our feelings – not the people we’re bombing), “The decisive underlying factor was the war in Bosnia and belated contrition in the West for its own appalling record in that regard” a very good justification for war. ok, the “liberal guilt” comment was probably over the top, but i don’t know how to make the point in a less obnoxious way (if i did, i would have).
…..
anyway, thank you again for the responses. it’s been a very interesting thread.
Absolutely.
NATO acted in direct opposition to Russia’s interests among many other reasons. It wanted to make clear to Russia that its prior commitments to not espand east notwithstanding, NATO would do what it pleased.
It wanted Europe to see that NATO was still relevant even if it was to put out small conflicts that did not require external brute force. Russia and China did complain bitterly at the time, I think, but to no avail.
Exactly.
Maybe our author beleives NATO’s reach extends into the Holy Land as well.
Isn’t the obvious truth that employing violence represents the failure of humans to act sensibly or humanely? War is never an acceptable solution. Postmortem discussions are in my view meaningless..
In spite of Obama and some of the Popes, there is no such thing as a just war, just as there is no such thing as “military humanism,” The peace made through violence is the silence of death.
He’s an ally, truly. Don’t go with your gut on this one.
An ally of what? His sole claim to political activism is bashing people to his left. He did it before the war and he’s doing it now. Aside from that, what has he done that’s been of any importance? In what ways has he contributed to the left? His blogospheric celebrity can be attributed to his cultural liberalism, self-promotion, and a shared joy between himself and other popular liberal bloggers in making awful, utterly juvenile attempts at humor and cultural anaylsis. The guy is a verbose man-child, who, besides dishonestly smearing his intellectual superiors, has a completely childish sense of humor combined with a desperate need to show how clever he is.
“Do you not think the Civil Rights demonstrators rode buses all night to mass events?”
Generally no, of course not. They were originally very local and based in churches. I was responding to the complaint that we 60s protesters didn’t wear suits and ties.
As far as who was a hippie, the media and conservatives generally regarded all young people other than very conventional ones, and the Young Republicans, as hippies. I was describing the anti-war demos in D.C. My own recollection, and photos I saved, was that most of us were pretty ordinary young Americans. Of course there were some far out people. There always are. There are also always people who look down on anyone who is a little different and on young people for their dress and behavior; they’re called conservatives. Nixon capitalized on it.
You are talking to someone who was there amidst both groups.
But let it be. The truth that lies in memories will die. It is how those who follow and weren’t there decide to mythologize it all.
Forgive my compulsion to add one personal vignette. I was teaching in the medical school during the 60s and part 70s. First the the kids came to class clean shaven and dressed in shirts and ties and slacks. Then suddenly one year there was HAIR all over the place, T-Shirts, blue jeans and NO SOCKS! The traditional survey that asked the question what do you hope to gain from medical school? was answered by the majority “Teach us how to be compassionate.” I thought they were pretty extraordinary and loved them all.
bens, we’ve had this little exchange before, haven’t we? You called yourself “Richard” over at Digby’s place, and you called me a liar and a cheat and a vain person and an enemy of all that is right and good in the name of Edward S. Herman, your personal deity. And you posted a bunch of urls just like the ones you’ve posted here.
So by all means, continue to slander and misrepresent me, and go on genuflecting at the altar of Edward S. Herman, stalwart anti-imperialist and defender of Milosevic and Ahmadinejad. But please, settle on one nom de blog. I would suggest “sprezzatura.”
Michael,
Chomsky and Herman have both made many valuable contributions to the left, whatever their (minor) flaws may be. And even if what you said about them were true (which it isn’t), their contributions still outweigh anything you’ve ever done or are likely to do in the future. Let’s assume Herman really was a defender of Milosevic and Ahmadinejad (which, again, is completely and utterly false, and you know it). What are the real-world effects of such apologetics? Do they makes crimes of the type of Milosevic or policies of Ahmadinejad more likely? The only sensible answer is “NO,” for reasons that can be elaborated if you or anyone else needs clarification. What about the academic debate? Surely, you would agree that even people who are wrong can help add to the scholarly literature, if for no other reason that debating them can clarify and sharpen the arguments of those who disagree? By playing the devil’s advocate, especially on a topic with such universal mainstream consensus, Herman has done people a favor, even if he’s wrong. Furthermore, his criticisms, even if they’re wrong, have the effect of causing people to question US intervention, which, in era of multiple US wars, can only be a good thing.
Now compare the consequences of Herman being wrong to the consequences of your “criticisms” (to be overly kind) of the left at the start of the Iraq war. Not only were you a vehement supporter of the Afghanistan war, but you smeared the left in the Boston Globe at the height of the Iraq war hysteria. The net effect of your smears were to increase support for the Iraq war, which contradicts your avowed opposition to the Iraq war. To the average reader, who never heard of Chomsky or Herman or ANSWER, the takeaway from your articles was that only loony people oppose the war. It’s telling that instead of harshly criticizing the war, you saved your ire for those who opposed it. But, of course, if you were really anti-war, the Boston Globe would never have given you a platform to begin with me
To sum things up: Herman, even if he’s wrong, harms no one and even serves a useful purpose. Whereas your (Berube’s) dishonest criticisms of the left in a mainstream paper at the height of war hysteria, had the effect of boosting support for the war(s). From a moral point of view, to say nothing of an intellectual point of view, Herman and Chomsky come out on top.
Would those “minor flaws” include genocide denial — of the Srebrenica Massacre (ruled genocide by the ICT-Y, upheld by the ICT-Y court of appeals, upheld by the ICJ in 2004) and of the Rwanda genocide (23 convictions for genocide so far)? Edward S. Herman seems to be quite a piece of work.
Ondelette, there is no genocide denial by Edward Herman. Why don’t you try reading what he’s written first-hand instead of taking the word of dishonest hacks.
Here’s a good recent article by Medialens discussing some of the controversy: http://www.medialens.org/alerts/09/091125_dancing_on_a.php
Here’s a very relevant passage:
“But it is simply false to suggest that they have argued that “the genocide at Srebrenica was all a hoax”. Herman and Peterson have written:
“The Srebrenica massacre took place in the month before Operation Storm, Croatia’s devastating attack and ethnic cleansing of some 250,000 Serbs from the Krajina, with over 1,000 civilians killed, including over 500 women and children…” (Edward Herman and David Peterson, ‘The Dismantling of Yugoslavia,’ Monthly Review, October 2007; http://www.monthlyreview.org/1007herman-peterson1.php)
Their very rational concern is to discuss the “asymmetry in how the Srebrenica massacre and Operation Storm have entered the Western canon”. (Ibid) Their interest, then, is in precisely +comparing+ how these two horrific massacres were treated by Western politics and media. Herman and Peterson have also written:
“There is a good case to be made that, while there were surely hundreds of executions, and possibly as many as a thousand or more, the 8,000 figure is a political construct and eminently challengeable.” (Herman and Peterson, ‘Milosevic’s Death in the Propaganda System,’ ZNet, May 14, 2006; http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/3884)
Herman and Peterson, then, are +not+ denying that mass killings took place at Srebrenica. They also do not accept the figure cited by Kamm and others, but that they are perfectly entitled to do. The point is that while critics are free to take issue with their facts, sources and arguments, it is nonsense to accuse them of sins that are the “moral equivalent of Holocaust denial”. And to associate us with Holocaust denial on the grounds that we publish their material is desperate indeed.”
Actually, Herman himself is all I read, before going to confirm these two instances based on the records in the International Criminal Tribunals and the International Court of Justice. You say, based on public acclaim, that nobody will care what Michael Bérubé says, that Herman and Chomsky are judged experts by the multitudes.
I’m sorry, but given the choice between Edward S. Herman’s take and that of the entire international criminal tribunal process up through the ICJ, well, I guess I’ll take the ICJ. For much the same reasons you say people should ignore Michael Bérubé.
I also have long recognized that Noam Chomsky is much more acute and penetrating when doing domestic U.S. criticism than he is when analyzing international situations. He’s had this problem for decades, his linguistic theory doesn’t generalize properly (e.g. to languages far removed from the Indo-European group), his theories of U.S. mercantile labor in the 1970s and 1980s were just ludicrous when read by people (such as myself at the time) who were in some of the countries he was describing — using exchange rates unadjusted by PPP for comparison and the like to create the impression that people earning a decent living were actually destitute slaves. But that’s just a personal opinion.
So I guess you can accuse me of reading Edward Herman’s detractors and maligning him with slurs, but it was my own personal impression having read his own penmanship and nothing else and then comparing it to the opinions of the courts of international law with jurisdiction over what he was describing. I’d call what he wrote denial. Maybe you have another term for calling something judged a genocide under the Convention on Genocide as not really a genocide but some kind of “genocide inflation”. In my mind, that makes Mr. Herman, in 2009, when said article was written, a crackpot, regardless of his former status.
I believe in the rule of law, not the rule of men, even men named Noam Chomsky and Edward S. Herman.
Again, whatever their flaws, their contributions are surely greater. And that being the case, the effect of criticizing Chomsky and Herman is to marginalize them even further, at a time when their analysis is even more needed then ever. The point is not that it’s wrong to criticize them, but that it’s wrong to criticize them in a dishonest way (as Berube does) that makes it more likely that those unfamiliar with them will be less likely to investigate for themselves.
In other words, of all the things in the world to criticize, Berube chose to pick on the already much-maligned figures like Herman and Chomsky, two people who can’t even cough the wrong way without being criticized with all the pettiness their critics can muster (a standard that Berube would never apply to himself, a supporter of the Aghanistan war and an effective supporter of the Iraq war (while claiming to be opposed).
Ondelettte,
Despite your protracted post, you never once showed where Herman denied genocide. I’m asking you to be specific. One can believe in genocide inflation without disbelieving in genocide.
don;t know if berube does, but I do, and it would be very intyeresting to discuss this specifically in regard to Obama 9the others seem to be easier to accept for some…)
ok, well, can we have R2P sans the US…it seems to me that a certain group of people are never going to go along with R2P when it includes the US…something about being an empire…
I pointed you to the article he wrote. He disputes the findings of the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia pretty much in its entirety, the numbers, the events, the judgment. That judgment was upheld by the ICJ five years before Mr. Herman wrote his article. And he does dispute that genocide occurred in the Srebrenica massacre. He also disputes the judgment that the Hutu planned and executed genocide against the Tutsi in Rwanda, preferring to believe that the whole thing was a plot hatched by President Kagame and General Dallaire to make it look like a genocide when what really happened was the European and especially American IMPERIALISTS were engineering access to South Central African mineral resources.
As I said, I’m just giving you my personal impression from reading his article, and comparing it to the judgments of the relevant courts. Mr. Herman is denying that either one is a genuine genocide principally to obviate the perceived obligation of signatories of the treaty, in order to argue against any perceived need to activate the consequent responsibility to protect.
It’s pretty damned disingenuous. His arguments about Rwanda are so similar to some anti-semitic arguments I’ve read about the Holocaust (disputing the numbers first, then alleging plots, then claiming that the courts were in cahoots) as to be just baseline disgusting. Again, only my own personal opinion. If the future of the entire American left hangs in the balance, well, then, cast me out like ostraka on the edge of town.
I didn’t realize ANSWER was the anti-war leadership…
I think there is consfusion on this point. From where I am in San Diego, as well as the coalitions I worked in and around (CAN, ISO, Si Se Pueda, San diego coalition for peace and justice, etc), we generally agreed that we needed to support peoples’ right to fight against imperialism in Iraq, but that that support had to some with criticism for any specific groups when it was called…one example of this was discussions over what position to take on Hezbollah in Lebanon, in which we decided on “critical” support…that is, support for their right to fight back (instead of just labeling everybody evil terrorists), but also fierce critiques about Hezbollah itself (that is, we understood that while Hezbollah were helping the people fight b ack, they also have their shitty agenda, and that needed to be pointed out).
Finally, I remember plenty of times where we had major differences with ANSWER, even though they were generally present at most antiwar events…I guess maybe we just disagree on who the “leadership” was…to me United for Peace and Justice made some awful fucking calls, and where they did we fucked off and did what we thoguht was the best thing…
correction: obama got you to join…thankfully, I had already read a history book before his campaign started…PHEW! what a waste of my time that would have been…and disappointing.
also, if 99% of US intervention (I am ball-parking it here–random error of .0000001%-.0000002%) is NOT for any “good” reason, can;t we just go ahead and say they always intervene for imperial reasons?
THANK YOU, Selise!
again thank you. makes me wonder how much Mr. Berube engaged in the antiwar movement, because the characterization re: anti-war movement being controlled by ANSWER comes off as rediculous!
you haven’t given up on Obama? that is a joke! so, you have a list of all the major anti-war demonstrations, and from that you firmly believe that ANSWER controlled the anti-war left…
my question: did you also compile a list of Obama’a major campaign financiers? If you had done that I would think it would be kinda easy to have never believed in him in the first place. You really think the rulers are going to allow for a president that would actually deserve any hope? das f-ing mental, G!
indeed
isupportobama! wow, you are starting to show up in different places, eh. thanks for the fake support of Obama, Mr. “right-leaning, conservative brain.”
tell Mr. Beck I say hello…
I happen to think that Chomsky was pretty accurate on Serbia/Kosovo. The reason the US got tough with Milosevic was not human rights concerns. It is a pretty ridicilous claim, seeing the extensive USA support around the same time for regimes that committed much worse human rights atrocities, like Turkey and Indonesia. Rather they saw an easy way to destabilize a political player that was not aligned with NATO and the US, one of the few holdouts in Europe of russian loyalism. As Chomsky states, the NATO general responsible warned that bombings would increase serbian aggression on the ground, which indeed it did. And the US had no intention of going in on the ground level to stop the serbs.
I havent read the book, but its a misrepresentation of the antiwar lefts position to just paint them as opponents of the US, regardless of how the super power acts. There are many ways, beside bombs, that such a major player as the US can work in favour of human rights. But that would require a genuine interest in working for a humane agenda, and i think its ridiculous to claim that the US have that kind of committment, just seeing how the country has acted recently, under the Obama regime. Under his watch the coup in Honduras has been allowed to continue, making a travesty of any hope for better relations between the superpower and the south part of the american continent. And thats just one example of many.
Yes. disappointing.
I was in ANSWER and in PSL, the controlling group behind it, for virtually all the the major Iraq antiwar protests. Let me dispel any misconceptions.
ANSWER was not a coalition. PSL controlled it completed (as did Workers World before the split that led to the forming of PSL, but that’s another story.) It was formed primarily as a means to recruit for the party. I know that from my own experience and from a major leftie who tried to warn me off when I asked advice about joining. He said Workers World told him pointblank they started ANSWER as a way to recruit.
The real problem with that, aside from the lunatic Manichean Marxism that permeated everything , is you can not have it both ways. Recruiting for the party means you only allow the most extreme into positions of power, that the moderates are forced out, or leave in disgust, and that you can never be a mass organization. The purported cause of the front group is secondary.
A senior member of PSL once told me in complete seriousness that Mugabe of Zimbabwe must be supported because he stands against imperialism. I am not making that up.
Manichean, indeed.
I was blogging in the 90′s but other than family/friends as readers :-) ?? :-)
MYDD and DU started in 2001 – by Feb of 2001 DU’s David said he had over 2000 “members”
Well said – While Chomsky habitually depicts the US as morally equal or inferior to Nazi Germany, his defense of and giving permission to use his essay to a fellow whose background he knew – and of which he said that what little extra he learned of his background latter would not change his actions – Faurisson – a deliberate, overt, malevolent, lying, poisonous antisemite Holocaust denier – does not make Chomsky a Holocaust denier- and indeed Hitchens did not need to pretend Chomsky was unaware of the situation.
But Chomsky is needed because of his large following – and indeed because I agree with much of his conclusions (including his look for the pipeline deal the CIA wants for “OUR US OIL CO’s”). Chomsky is tough to take seriously at any point in time if you have followed him (as I have since first meeting him in the 60′s at MIT) because his answers never change despite his reasons being shown to be in error – he just finds new reasons and denies his old ones were in error – usually quoting an off-point fact as if it mitigated the error. He will always be pro-Muslim (indeed pro any country not America or Israel – always throwing into the discussion the claims that our evil exceeds all known evil in the given topic) in any discussion (while still of course decrying any obvious evil) because that fits his 40 year goal of ending the Jewish state of Israel(albeit he is for a two state solution because real world means one state is not going to happen – making Harris angry :-) ) – and that colors discussion of event in many countries. But as I said, I agree with him too much to not see him as a valued flag bearer of the left.