Tonight’s film Waiting for Armageddon documents a specific aspect of American Christianity, and while they are a large slice of the Christian pie in America, they are not representative of all Christians. But they are, IMO dangerous because of their influence and their agenda. Kindly keep in mind while discussing this to not paint all Christians with the same strokes. Also please no ad hominen attacks and please as always be respectful of our guests and each other.
Too often there’s an urge to paint the tens of millions of Rapture-fixated Christians as quaint but harmless eccentrics who believe that one day a whole bunch of people, including hopefully themselves, will be sucked up into heaven to party with Jesus and eat popcorn while watching as the rest of the unbelieving sinful world suffers the Tribulations, cheering as flesh falls of people’s faces, and fires, hurricanes and other disasters destroy those who don’t accept Jesus as their savior. Heck there’s even video games about the Tribulations so you can experience what it feel like sitting on a cloud with God handling the remote control! As one Evangelical in Waiting for Armageddon says:
It’ll be fun!
But along with what is expressed as a voyeuristic, holier-than-thou desire to see other suffer for being bad Christians–or non-Christians–is a very creepy agenda, an agenda which has been affecting Middle East policy and global politics for at least three decades. Waiting for Armagedon exposes the Evangelical, Christian Zionist agenda. Chip Berlet, Senior Research Analyst, Political Research Associates has this to say about the Christian Zionist plans for Israel, and especially the Temple Mount:
They don’t want a peace process. they want the to be Muslims evicted by the Jews, the Jews to rebuild the Temple of Solomon and then Christ to return and trump everyone.
One pastor states that once the Tribulations happen, the Jews will be happy to convert and accept Yeshua as their savior. Oy! And thus any effort for peace in the Middle East is perceived by this huge bloc of believers as being part of the Antichrist’s bag of evil tricks.
There are at least 50 million Evangelical Christians in the United States, and you can find them at every level of government, from school boards to state and federal legislatures, and in the judicial and executive branches. When George W. Bush got tough on Israel, over 100,000 Evangelicals wrote him to complain, proving what one pastor says
There is no separation of church and state
The Christian Zionist movement is positioning themselves as persecuted members of society like the Jews under Hitler. But in reality, this group of “oppressed people” want to convert Jews to Christianity, and their activities are designed to claim Israel for Jesus so His Kingdom can be established on earth–once all the unbelievers are cast into the fiery lake. And with no irony, one pastor explains that Islam desires world domination. Well, guess what, so do these adherents of Christ.
It is astounding to hear software engineer and hardcore Evangelical Laura Bagg say,
If the Bible weren’t true, we wouldn’t be creating jet engines.
While Oklahoma resident Devonna Edwards admits that because of the Rapture, she’ll never have grandchildren. In the meantime, pastors use a unique form of calendar math (each year is only 360 days) to prove Jesus’ return is imminent, then complain from the pulpit about post-modernism changing the meaning of words, though they themselves have no problem completely re-jiggering ancient, lunar-based calendars to fit their agenda.
The filmmakers have allowed Christian Zionists to speak for themselves, and present as well thoughtful opposing views:
Daniel and Revelations were never meant to be scripts for those in power
There is a desire in this mindset have a self-fulfilling prophecy, and while
of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only
These Christian Zionists have no problem pushing the hands of the prophetic clock forward–and using Middle east policy to do so.
Waiting for Armageddon touches briefly on the subject of “Twelvers” the messianic Shiite belief system; that belief in the violent return of the Mahdi imam mirror the fundamentalists’ grisly scenario and shows there’s not that much difference between fundamentalist end of the world fury, whether Christian or Islamic.
Waiting for Armageddon reveals a huge subculture of war-loving, militaristic, anti-Judaism running through one of the largest Christian sects in America, a world view that is being exported around the world to 200 million people in 77 languages. And one, which if left unchecked, has very unpleasant ramifications for our world’s future.



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Just a couple reminders: Please stay on topic, in this case the documentary Waiting for Armageddon and the subjects raised therein including the Evangelical agenda for ht Middle east, fundamentalism, Christian Zionism, the Rapture, End Times etc. If you’d like to discuss health care Fannie & Freddie, etc we have lots of threads for that. This space is for Movie Night. Thanks.
Please refresh your browser every minute or so to see new comments, questions and answers. To respond to a specific comment, hit “reply” type away, then hit “send comment.”
Kindly no hijacking, and again please stay on topic. And please be polite and respectful to our guests and to each other as we discuss those things verboten at the holiday table: religion and politics.
And as always pardon my typing skills or lack thereof.
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Thank you all for being here! How did all of you get interested in Christian Zionists and their influence on Middle Eastern Politics?
Hi FDL,
Thanks for having us online. We are ready to answer anything your folks have to ask.
Enjoy the film!
David Heilbroner, co-director
Hello There,
Franco Sacchi here
Just to let folks know, Waiting for Armageddon opens in Jan in various places across the country
So how did you all get interested in this subject? And how did you gan the trust of the Christian Zionists…we they happy to have you show the world their truth?
Hi Everyone,
I know this is tough, shocking stuff, and I am curious what you all think, as it will open up theatrically in NYC on Jan 8th and Boston Jan 29th and also Providence RI.
–Kate Davis (one of the filmmakers)
For me it was a relief to see a clear view–not a “oh these folks are so quaint” look.
IMO, religious fanatcism is really dangerous…and the CZ/Evangelicals has no idea how alike they are to the Muslims they denigrate for wanting world dominionation–they want it too!
Hey Lisa,
We were intrigued by the unlikely relationship between Evangelical Christians and Israel. Why can’t US politicians criticize Israel? That was our jumping off point. Our answers are explored in the film.
We have even won the support of Jewish and Evangelical leaders, so hopefully we can shed some light on this little-understood, but explosive, subject.
David
So in the trailer there is a quote to the effect that radical Islam is a culture of death. And Christian Armageddonism isn’t? These people deserve Darwin Awards, all the more poignant because they don’t “believe” in Darwin.
(reminder for new comers, please refresh your browser regularly to se new comments)
It’s a pretty creepy world view, IMO, and contrary to the idea of a loving god and a nice friendly Jesus…
“god handling the remote control” Yikes Lisa. That leaves far too much to any depraved imagination. Which god, and for god’s sake, which remote control? Beavis and Butthead wouldn’t understand the implications, but they’d get a good laugh when they saw the accompanying video. So would we for that matter!
How many folks do you think are of the opinion that aliens are that same god, and they expect to be kidnapped by such foreign types? I wonder how many are of like mind?
Why would rational people that owe their lives to science believe what hasn’t happened to anyone for 1500 or so years? Everyone knows it was a promo for gathering followers and their purses, no? Even a thousand years of incontrovertible truth should be enough to quell superstition?
Alas. Truth is a terrible master. It rewards nothing except knowledge.
That’s part of the point of the film. Rhetoric is dangerous. And when different religions offer different world views, political disaster too often is the result.
Exactly–and at one point a pastor is coming up wiht these complex mathematical equatins using 360 day year so the prophecies wil be true..and later another pastor complains about how in post modernism word loose their meaning–which is pretty much what the prophecy fanatics do wiht math!
There are similar views too in Madhi/Twelver and End Times Xian views: just the path to get there involves different faiths–same ugly end though…also seen in Zoastrianism btw–most dualist faiths in fact
Hope you don’t mind the edit. Rhetoric may also be extremely positive. IIRC, it was one of the core courses in ancient Greece.
It’s not what they say that bothers me. Anyone is allowed to say anything short of shouting fire in a crowded theater, according to the first amendment. What bothers me is why they believe such crazy stuff and are willing to make fools of themselves with all the world watching.
That’s one-sixth, 17%, of the US population. Is that figure right? If so, wow.
Religion is something that is shared by billions of our fellow travelers on earth. We may or may not relate, but it’s better going through life knowing who is on the bus with you. Yes, a lot of Xian commentary sounds scary or derisive, but the reality is that Christians (at least the ones we profiled) are smart, organized and ready to vote and spread their view of the world. So, the idea behind this film is to get people to talk, have a dialogue, even if it is athiest vs. believer. Because at the end of the day, we all vote and we can/should debate.
And no one has a monopoly on the truth.
Personally I felt that too many journalists, commentators, and the public in general was ignoring the presence in this country of millions of Americans who seemed ‘engulfed” in this apocalyptic theology. I really felt that this is the biggest and least unreported story of our times.
Franco
Having only seen the clip, I have to tell you, may I call you Kate, that it’s not shocking to me at all. I’ve gotten to know some very fundamentalist evangelicals and this really is how a whole bunch of people view realilty. It was very disconcerting and really tripped me out, I have to say.
There are a lot of progressive type folks who follow a variety of newsworthy stories…The influence those evangamentalists hold, what’s going on between Palestine and Israel, and other related issues. I think you will find a huge positive response to your film.
Very best of luck to (all of) you.
Hi and thanks Lisa.
So what makes craziness so widespread? I have heard that there are also militant Buddhists. Can’t remember which country they tried to slaughter their opponents.
Worse than making foolde of themselves–making policy. One of the thngs seen in Waiting for Armageddon is the effect Evangelicals have on Middle east policy and how any attempt to bring about a peace is seen as being counter Jesus, since of course (their) jesus wants Israel to belong to the Jews who wil then be converted by the Zionist Chrsitians
But at some point, shouldn’t evidence count for something?
I lurk at a forum for rapture believers. If I posted any of my thoughts, I would be banned. Politically they are teabaggers and birthers, and for Christians, they sure hate poor folks.
Their belief stems from a reading of the Bible, which is shared by many, many millions of our fellow citizens. The core notion we wanted to spread is not derision of Evangelicals. But a deeper insight into their beliefs so that smarter political dialogue can take place. If these folks sounds crazy to you, understand that you are likely in a minority. If that’s shocking, well, welcome to the melting pot!
Oh I am quite aware. Why are they not subjects of ridicule instead of policy makers?
I’ve met a lot of creepy people in my 66 years but the Christian Zionists I interacted with while protesting the Irak invasion really creeped me out. Their lack of knowledge or understanding of the world around them was astonishing. Their level of knowledge of the Bible was also a surprise. I’m not a Christian but I knew their book better than they did. One woman wanted to hit me when I informed her that the Old Testament was also the Jewish Bible. Blew me away.
Kate, David, Franco: I liked that you made an often overlooked point: That after carter won in 76, the right went OH WAIT, we need to tap into this whole religion deal.
And GREAT clip of Reagan in the ebates talking about Armageddon–like oh wtf?
How can you have deep insight into something that is totally irrational? How could anyone possibly have a political dialogue with crazy people?
The ones I met were completely into authoritarianism.
Yes sir, No sir. Don’t think, just follow. Your reward is you don’t have to have a bunch of brain dead grandchildren. Forgive that snark, if you will.
Sure, but WHOSE evidence? Xian Evangelicals believe in the literal truth of the Bible. In our film: The opening sequence shows two jet propulsion engineers from CT, one of whom was an athiest who became a believer in Bible prophesy. He’s a person of serious science. He’d gladly argue you all night long in scientific language.
Well, when it comes to evolution sure, but honestly no one can prove or disprove the existence of Divine Being/s…and no one can prove which if any religion is “right” in its world view/way to pray/what to eat etc
You know, all religions look crazy to outsiders. Muslims, Jews, Xians, Buddhists. They comprise the immense majority of the planet’s population. I think the real question is: how can we NOT have this dialogue?
Jimmy Carter is an interesting case. Did you talk to him or with Christians who are true believers but not in End Times? Really, he is very devout, but I think of him as a genuinely good person, someone who has taken his beliefs very seriously, and he reads the same Bible, or does he not?
I think you don’t understand the definition of “evidence.” Evidence is objective data that supports or refutes an hypothesis. Evidence is decidedly NOT belief. In fact, it is almost belief’s opposite.
I was stunned by his wife saying that jet engines prve the Bible is true.
It’s important to understand the language of religions to be able to dialog wiht religious peopel. The majority of peopel in the world have ssomeof religious belieff that inform their lives. They arent all crazy, and to deny them faith is every bit as fundamentalist and totalitarian and having one faith or another crammed down our throats
I think it is important not to get fixated on specific numbers, but said that, this phenomenon is truly relevant. If we pay more attention and routinely get out of our comfort zone and we start listening to Am radio, talk radio in general, and if we listen to other media sources it is fairly easy to find out how common and wide spread are certain ideas….(this is an exercise that we all should do). as filmmakers I think our role is to cast light on certain aspects of life that we don’t normally see or even want to see…
(I apologize fo rmy typing)
I listen to conservative radio and watch Fox news and if you take away rhetoric in places, there are the same ideals held by liberals, free speech, a better life for all, etc.
This is the same reason that a Rapturist and Christian Zionist like Tom DeLay is an anti-environmentalist (besides the fact that those pesky tree-huggers were interfering with his bug-killing business) – people who think like that believe that ‘saving the earth’ is putting off the Second Coming of Christ and Armageddon, and they wish to hasten it, not delay it.
Oh, I don’t think religions are crazy. I understand that people need some emotional sop to make them feel that life has meaning. What is crazy is taking that emotional need to an extreme, especially when such actions have negative consequences for real human beings who do not agree with you. And I think you can’t have a dialogue with these people. You try to convince others to ignore or otherwise politically marginalize them.
Added on edit: Dialogue assumes rationality. Otherwise what’s the point?
This mindset seems to be fueling the Great War on Terror.
I fear a self fulfilling prophecy.
The Xians we met were caring, decent folks who believed things that sound terribly war-like. The point of the film – which you should see in its entirely – is that their words can come off as profoundly war mongering. But you dismiss these people at your peril. They will be at the polls, in state houses, on school boards. Blanket dismissals are just as dangerous as the views you hear that send you looking for an exit.
Filmmakers–How did you find the subjects to interview?
There must be millions and millions of small children around the globe who have yet to accept Jesus Christ as their savior.
Perhaps because they were raised to be a Muslim or a Hindu or a Jew, perhaps because they never heard of Jesus Christ, perhaps because they are mentally retarded or autistic or schizophrenic, perhaps because their parents brought them up to be atheists, perhaps because they are out begging in the streets and surviving from day to day is all they know.
What happens to them? Are they Left Behind on Judgment Day?
The sheer absurdity of Armageddon can be exposed in conversations with the faithful about things like this.
Alas, you may be on to something. As one Professor we interviewed (Barbara Rossing) said in our film. What’s frustrating is that the railer doesn’t give people here the full story we found. PLEASE remember to watch a DVD, come to screenings __ NYC, Boston, Providence for starters — and check our web site http://www.waitingforarmageddon.com for updates.
Thanx.
Which is why it is important to marginalize these people other ways. Dialogue is unrealistic.
During the last year of W’s reign, I joined a very conservative, evangelical fundamentalist Methodist church and got very involved in it’s politics. I went in with both eyes wide open, trying to see if could figure out something about the whole evangelical move to power in the government. I had many discussions with them. They are not clinical crazy. They have very different beliefs than me. Ones that include never asking questions. I ended up running out of there with my hair on fire, screaming. It took me a year to recover.
It’s very hard to marginalize 50 million Americans who are mainly white and middle class, who vote and are very vocal…
It nealry fainted whne on pastor said that Christians are getting close to being as oppressed as the Jews during Hilter..and then he startedcomplaining about how the white Eureopan make is being oppressed by liberals.
The comparison to Jews is ridiculous, but the cultural war issue they are attempting “our rights are being infirnged upon by society” are the same tactis being used in UK by some radicla Muslims to force sharia ot be the law rather that UK law
Deear eCAHNomics,
I could not agree more. What is amazing to me is how much religious fundamentalists (and not only Christian fundamentalists) are influenced by modernity and cartesian thinking. The ability to prove rationally a religious belief is basically the negation of the religious experience.
My greatest hope for this film is that it will make us reflect on what fundamentalism is and stimulate truly religious people to take a stand with respect to fundamentalism.
Actually I kinda like the way you type! :-)
When will it be in the Los Angeles area? Will a DVD be available for sale?
The website also has a great expanded press release with quotes and additional info
But when they number in the millions then we’re not talking about David Koresh cults but politically significant blocks. Just like the left wing, these folks are not going away. So ignore them at your peril, unless you approve of their agenda.
Very interesting subject and I look forward to seeing the film. As a spiritual/religious person myself I find Fundamentalism the antithesis of belief in a forgiving God. While they promote Faith at all cost to a single aspect of the Bible, they ignore other, more forgiving lessons of Christianity and for that matter all other religions. To me anyone who is so steely-spined and closed to other interpretations is a danger to others and even those around them.
I believe the debate is important but I’m not sure it will actually lead anywhere.
Filmmakers: How does all of this tie into The Family, C Street etc/
We ae working on an LA screening right now. Check the web site for developments!
I think it is important to realize how relative our viewpoints are. Yes, the street kids in India, agree, are slaves to their limited life experience as well. The trouble comes when one group thinks that they have the truest perspective. Maybe humility is an ingredient which would help dialogue between opposing groups and lead to a more peaceful world.
How has the evangelical community received your film?
or How do you think they will receive it?
I know it is dis-spiriting when people seem so entrenched. But what choice do we have? Knowing is always better than not knowing, when it comes to politics.
heh heh I live in St Petersburg FL. The ultra-religious AM radio are all over the airwaves down here. On FM my community radio station, WMNF, is closely bracketed by 2 lower powered Xian stations. On Sunday mornings WMNF has a 2 hour gospel show which airs a lot of “liberation theology.” I even get to hear parts of Dr Rev Wright’s sermons. Now that’s good radio!
I had a great meeting with Richard Cizik, past president of the Nat’l Assn of Evangelicals. He supports the film and will appear with us in interfaith panels. As do many Jewish leaders. As for the people profiled in the film, many have said the film is quite fair, though they don’t love the soundtrack. As criticisms go, that’s one I can live with.
Initially we attended a PreTribulation conference (the theme was of course the Bible Prophesy and the end times). At the conference we had a chance to interview many experts/theologians (some from Liberty University) and we also met one of the families portrayed in the film.
As it often happens one contact lead to another and we found a group of people who allowed us to follow them on a tour of Israel. I have to say that everybody has been extremely kind and generous with us.
We have seen people elected to our city government essentially by churches. There are some very large churches that draw from across the city or that have broad appeal in a certain council district. They are highly motivated to vote. It is hard to get people to understand, and if campaign literature would be published to point it out, we would be “proving” that the X-tians are persecuted.
All this reminds me of The Handmaid’s Tale. Atwood was amazingly prophetic.
Agreed David, and I am always open for debate. Ironically, I have been moved and persuaded by debate with many people over the years, but I am finding a much more entrenced mentality on both sides of the spectrum lately. I like to be informed though. I have been reading Frank Schaeffer’s books this winter and am entranced with his experiences in the Fundamentalist camp.
The beginning of the interaction I had with the woman I mentioned earlier was someone asked her “Would Jesus bomb the Irakis?” Her answer was an emphatic “yes.” It went from there.
There is some concern about the desire to convert Jews masquarading as “helping israel” and that folks like Elie Weisle are getting blindsided by Hagge and CUFI, overlooking the Zionist Christians (and sarah Plain is one btw) desire to “own” temple Mount after the jews do the heavy lifting
entrenced=entrenched
There are also a lot of “illegals” who are involved in evangelism. That is another large block of people. Did you find or talk to any of them?
I find it very disconcerting that there are Evangelicals in positions of power in our government who actually get to frame policy.
Sorta like Rahm, doncha think?
I don’t see how dialogue will change their minds, if that’s an issue. I do think it’s important to point out what they are doing.
I’ll check it out. I just had a fascinating dialogue with one of Pastor John Hagee’s people. In the end, I wasn’t persuaded by his views, but I gave it a shot and we parted amicably. Not sure what that means in the big picture, but thought you might be interested.
I agree that it’s difficult to marginalize 50 million U.S.ians. But I think that dialogue is not the starting point. We ain’t gonna change their minds and they ain’t gonna change ours. Other ways seems more likely, like making a case-by-case, non-ideologically, for whatever you want to happen, with the objective of stripping away those nutcases who happen to agree with you in a particular case.
And who cares what they say or believe, as long as the rational majority can have the govt they want? As long as they don’t start mowing us down, I don’t care how delusional they are.
They consider it proven anyway. Additional evidence will make little difference, so we mustn’t let that stop us– we need to shine a light on this stuff. I remember during the Bush-Cheney regime when some Evangelical “stealth candidates” were elected to a school board, I think it was in San Diego. As soon as it became widely publicized they were defeated at the polls.
I don’t dismiss them at all. People who support or advocate violence against others I consider very dangerous.
Well, as one Rabbi we interviewed said, “We have what we call the golden rule: the one who has the gold is the one who makes the rules.” CUFI gives millions a year to Israel. Yet they ultimately believe Jews must convert or go to hell. That anomaly is one of the many reasons we wanted to make this film. Yes, it IS odd and a question we go into deeply.
The “rational majority” don’t always vote. Republicans and X-tians mostly always do.
Sammy Rodriguez, President of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Council just joined the International Coalition of Apostles, a hard line Evangelical Christian Zionist, “devils rule different cities and neighborhoods” dominionist Christian congress.
Rodriguez, nicknamed the Hispanic Karl Rove, claims to represent over 15 million US Hispanics in the Protestant evangelical and five million Charismatic Catholic sects.
NYC-Atheists was going to file a lawsuit against a Brooklyn bishop re his robocalls for a political candidate, object being that diocese’s tax exemption. Much more productive tack, IMO, than “dialogue.” However, the announced date of the filing was 12/24 and there is nothing on NYC-Atheists website about it. So either they chickened out or somehow were delayed.
However weak the beginnings, this is the kind of attack against religious nutcases that I would like to see more of.
Bingo! If you want your voice to be heard, get as busy as the Xian right. OR don’t complain next election cycle.
That is the idea behind Third wave christians–they vote democratic except for gay rights and abortion, they are under the sway of Rodriguez… It’s coalitin building with Evangelical principles reaching into traditionally DEM areas.
Wow. A rabbi allowed himself to be quoted buying into the worst of the Jewish stereotypes. Guess he has no advice from publicists.
Was he on Bill Moyers some while ago? I think so. And, he’s got a big flock.
Yes, it depends on what they try to do in terms of policy. If our newly elected X-tians start trying to introduce City policy based on Bible studies, I don’t know if they will last. But they have 4 years to do what they will, again, unless it is so odious that recall efforts are launched, which almost never succeed.
I will give the GOP credit for running a Pagan candidate in Quees city council election; he won btw.
I think understanding one’s “enemies” is the best approach when trying to win a war.
Actually, the Jewish community has largely embraced this film. See our reviews in the Jewish Forward and Jewish Week.
There are millions of people who pick a church to find a sense of community, support etc.. and may just be thrilled to hear strong stories about the End times.. the rapture etc.. They may perceive these narratives as quite innocent.
I think that we need a strong dialogue to make sure that we do not take fundamentalism to lightly. The more radical believers (on all fronts!!) will not change their mind though on that I agree.
I commented here this morning that I recently read a Liberty University (whose seal is the image of a burning book, literally) defense of why the supremacy of America will go on and on – 10,000 year reich an’ all, I guess. It came down to:
1. Americans are Christians, who, unlike much of the rest of the world, take comfort from their future, immortal life with God, giving them the confidence to be a great nation – impetus that the lack of world lacks.
2. Climate change, if it happens, will benefit America whilst smiting our enemies.
3. Americans make more babies than other countries.
Really. Those were the three reasons given.
Of course, there is another perspective, argued in Atlantic Magazine this month, that radical evangelical millenialist Christianity actually caused the foreclosure crisis and the great crash:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200912/rosin-prosperity-gospel
So what you are suggesting is resurrecting a D authoritarian that can strip away religious fundamentalists from the R authoritarians. Delicate dance if you can do it.
That’s what I tried to do. And, all I got was a rash.
Filmmakers: Did the rabbi actually explain the sacrifices that he hoped would be offered should the Dome become the temple? I am curious what those are?
And fyi, Jesus reminds people NO SACRIFICES are necessary since he showed up, so agian I think the jews might get screwed in the deal if they thnk the Xians are on thier side…
Keep in mind that their predictions about the end times aren’t actually going to happen. So, in particular, the Jews aren’t going to go to Hell. So what do the Israelis have to lose in accepting aid from the Xians?
It is important to note that these people are Dominionists and are not embraced by mainstream Christians anymore than a pagan
I think in the case I cited, that the understanding of the enemy and his weakness was completely understood.
You had a great scene of a pastor complaining that nowadays people read the Bible as a mystical experience, rather than as an historical document…
Dear FDL Folks,
My time has now run out. NO I will not be raptured! At least I don’t think so.
Thanks for watching and check out our site! It’s been a great dialogue.
Thanks,
David
The “immigrant” proselytizers are hard core door knockers in my area. I have not seen any political agenda on their part, but who knows what happens at their churches. I have never tried to engage with them or any others (Watchtower, etc) who knock at my door.
The Jews will get shafted – all but the chosen 12,000 from the 12 Tribes…
JMO. But I think it’s necessary to understand the other side only to the extent to which you need to devise a strategy against them.
I hear you. And, I actually did make some in roads with some of the women. Showing them how to stand up for themselves and that sort of thing. And, I don’t even have a problem with someone wanting to be an Evangelical, although I am not one by any stretch, but when they become fundamentalists…people die. I don’t take them lightly at all.
So much of what we do is guided by the need to feel emotionally [or "spiritually"] grounded in one or another rendition of The Whole Truth.
We all embody these psychological defense mechanisms up to a point. Even in here you can witness attacks on conservatives and Republicans so fierce it is as though they were being described to us as manifestations of Satan himself.
But evangelicals [of any denomination] can take it to delirious heights because once God is part of the narrative Salvation itself is on the line. The stakes here don’t get any higher. So everything becomes invested in getting that part of the moral equation right.
In other words, with the immortality of one’s very soul up for grabs on Judgment Day there is no being reasonable at all with True Believers.
The only hope is to change the culture such that authoritarian mentalities like this have less and less access to less and less children.
Just be careful that in abandoning one Savior you don’t latch onto another one instead. After all, that’s what the facists and the communists did last century.
If major religions were available in catalogue format.. I would pick that religion which promises lots of sex after (armageddon) the big flame out.
I had a similarly scarring experience in a church that turned out to be quite fundamentalist. I was appalled when the preacher said he wasn’t worried about the wars. “You don’t care about people getting killed or wounded? Children? Soldiers?”
He said he and his family had their tickets punched and he was at peace with that.
Not all Evangelicals are Dominionists, but pretty much all Dominionists are Evangelicals?
Premillenial dispensationalists as well. But their overall world view IS shared by a vast number of Xians nationwide.
We aren’t taking a tiny minority and making them seem larger than they in fact are.
Thanks David!
Or promises it NOW, but that’s a matter of patience…
as i see it.. these fundamentalists aren’t following the words of Christ… if they did their philosophy would be peaceful… they’ve forgotten the Sermon on the Mount and the prayers Jesus made… instead they spread hatred and violence against humanity, and make excuses to plunder the earth!! its why i’m no longer one of them…………. i grew up…
Dominionists include Pentecostals, fundamentalists, evangelicals and more. While they each think that the other is wrong and that they ultimately will be the only ones “chosen”…they combine efforts toward reaching the goal of Dominionism
Precisely. The wives sure could cook, though. The men were scarrrreeeeey.
This is EXCELLENT! Thank you for making this film and I cannot agree with you more that this discussion MUST become as common place as the discussion of separation of church and state.
Applause!!!
I’ve been there, done that. (Was gonna become a nun in my pre-teen years, era of The Nun Story movie.) So I understand. However, I grew up at age 13. I also understand that some never do, but I still say that empathy and understanding are important only to the extent to which it helps reduce such groups political power. Keep your eye on the ball.
I’d opt for lots of sex and NO armaggedon!
From what I know, would seem to be Islam with the 72 virgins, assuming you’re a straight guy.
The message really is TO VOTE and get peopel informed and voting. One issue can glue people together.
The 7 Mountains Mandate is one of their slickest marketing tools that lays out the agenda VERY clearly. This is something Sarah Palin is a devout believer in.
Sun Tzu thought so too.
I worry for their children. I really do. One couple I met, had bible study every morning in their living room with their 3 children before breakfast.
the whirlwind
Hiya juslin! Wassup?
You echo one of my son’s few cogent comments: What does Christianity have to do with Christ anyhow?
Me too, which page is that on? DO they take mastercard? /s
Thanks David
For spawning an interesting dialogue and answering our questions and concerns. Looking forward to seeing the film.
The Bible Belt is well documented for having worse social outcomes than the rest of the country.
voting is the marginalization necessary…and we can all find common ground
Yes, thanks to Lisa too for putting this together.
I love this place. Blest be the ties that bind.
Lisa…you are so spot on! Voting is key! And a couple of weeks ago a poll came out suggesting that dems are so unhappy that they are not going to even bother to vote…40% of them! That is a vote for extremism!
I am speaking at precincts now about how to watch for Stealth Candidates who will run on any Party tag just to win.
It’s their eyes that creep me out, an empty stare as if they were seeing things or lost in a reverie.
So called moderate religions enable them because the moderates legitimize non-evidential thinking. Once you have lost ‘a taste for evidence’ as Sam Harris puts it, there is nothing to hold a fevered imagination in check.
Filmmakers: what were some of the challenges you ran into?
yes! Gershom Goremberg the Israeli author (also profiled in our film) as also observed how Fundamentalism is a child of rational modernity. The pastor/theologian you mentioned, in our film is complaining about mysticism and encouraging his audience to read the Bible as scientific book. this is the crux of the problem. This is not only problematic from a religious point of view but it can be catastrophic for the scientific community. If millions of American this the equivalent of mixing up chemistry and alchemy, astronomy and astrology….
This sounds too much like a way to scare us into voting for Democrats. I think we should only vote for a Democrat if the Republican candidate is a Dominionist.
Reminder of dates screening: http://firstrunfeatures.com/armageddon_playdates.html
i agree, i admit too that i follow the arcane arts, but magick will never be a science, nor will religion!
LOL u funny!! heyy and hoping you’re having a great holiday season as i wish for us all ;o)… the venom these “christians” spew in Christ’s name is terrifying even the children repeat them… maybe your son is growing up as i did… hehehe
Peterr once made a point in one of his threads, that I hope I don’t totally botch or misconstrue. He said that most rational citizens probably would not put up with these folks trying to affect major change in local policies. If someone remembers differently, please let me know.
Apologies to Peterr is I messed up.
Kate, Franco–did you get sense from the teens you interviewed that they wanted to bail on fundamentalism…they seemed sad their faith claimed they wouldnt have long lives
And when the end times dont arrive as scheduled (which they havent for 1000+ yrs now) how will folks cope/rationalize?
Not at all…it is about truly paying attention and understanding what to look for in Dominionist candidates regardless of the Party.
That said, it is irrefutable that the Republican Party has been infested with these End Times believers to a much greater degree than any other party.
I think that David and Kate will agree with me that in spite of our personal opinions (which may differ in some respect) we really wanted to be respectful of our subject. I believe that sometimes listening takes more courage than attacking.
The challenge was to be respectful and at the same time do not hide anything.
kate-as a woman–what did you feel in Israel, and especially around the dome?
And you did an awesome and respectful job.
Oh no, my son’s comment was back in his rational days before he “grew up” to be a corprotist.
If I thought it would do any good, I’d be a beatitudes Christian. But the Golden Rule is good enough.
I’m looking forward to seeing this film. In LA, so I’ll check the website.
What is the security around the Dome like? How vulnerable dies it feel? i think it is one of the most frightening triggers that will set off the nuclear Armageddon that they seek.
Fair enough. What did you learn by listening that you didn’t already know or suspect?
When will the film be available to those of us unable to reach the larger cities?
There’s aspot to click for updates too on that page.
And quick shameless plug for next week:
“Papers” is the story of undocumented youth and the challenges they face as they turn 18 without legal status. 65,000 undocumented students graduate every year from high school without “papers” and the door to their future slams shut.
There are approximately 2 million undocumented children who were born outside the U.S. and raised in this country. These are young people who were educated in American schools, hold American values, know only the U.S. as home and yet risk deportation to countries they may not even remember.
I don’t know. Maybe we should ship all the Sarah Zionists over to Israel and give the Muslums Utah. Couldn’t that work?
There is great Book by Gershom Goremberg on this topic (The Temple Mount/AlAqsa):”The End of Days”.
When I was there I felt that the security was quite thorough. But the tension is clearly in the air…
Sounds like a subject worth looking at. You’re a good ‘un, Lisa.
Amen… As a Baha’i, albeit not a ‘devout’ one (I smoke and drink…), it behooves rational individuals to take a stand against religious fervor that sanctions/sponsors violence…! Be it, Judeo-Christian, Islam, Sikhs, Hindu, etal…! Read the writings of each… Violence only begets more violence…! 8-(
If anything can marginalize them as a political force it is that which marginalizes large swaths of children from all other subcultures in America: American Idol, Entertainment Tonight, Big Brother, pop culture, the Super Bowl, Hollywood, celebrity worship, reality tv, the next “cool” things to come along.
Maybe in the end our minds will all be reduced down to the lowest common denominator: The consumption of mass quantities.
We’ll all become Coneheads.
I understand their belief system…it’s tidy, it answers questions, provides a social network.
Sometimes the golden rule is not good enough, when egocentricity obscures the fact that what I think is good for me may not be so good for the other and may be just what the other doesn’t want.
Wow, this has been a great discussion. BTW, if you have an art house or other small local theatre, let them kow what movie you’d liek to see (like Waiting for Armageddon).
Also you may want to talk to your church group or synagogue to organize a screening….
Oh pshaw. The conditions you mention would obscure any religious call to action. The Golden Rule is as good as it gets.
How the teenagers cope is still not clear to me. It seemed to me that they “compartimentalize” if i can use this term. In other words they do not try to reconcile at all costs the urgency of the End Times theology with their natural
desire to be kids!!
How this could impact them it is impossible for me to say.
Political power is their main source of existence. We need 2 important sweeping changes to neutralize these religious zealots…1) Campaign Finance Reform; and 2) IRS Code revision for non-profits – specifically churches and ministries – involved in preaching politics from the pulpit.
Kate, David Frano, thank you so much for joining us. This has been a wonderful chat, and thank you all readers/ commenters, and welcome ot the newcomers!
Please check out the website Waiting for Armageddon fo rupdates and info, and I;ll se eyou next week!
Thanks again filmmakers for making one of my fave films to date!
Oh yes congress likes the golden rule at least the men do regarding abortion coverage.
I was already thinking about putting a group together.
Heh. Long ago (1994 to be precise) I realised the way you combine religion & science is compartmentalization. It’s one of those wonderful elements of learning that is completely obvious after you hear it, such that you never forget it.
Huh?
There is considerable research being done on the effects of the End Times, Spiritual Warfare, Warriors for the Lord, Joel’s Army and on and on effects on children raised in these extremists ‘c’hristian environments…religiously motivated child-abuse is one of the angles discussed by “walkaways” of the movement itself.
please check our site
http://www.waitingforarmageddon.com
and join our mailing list.
You can also contact our distributor first run features:
http://www.firstrunfeatures.com
*heh* Yes, yes, and yes…! ;-)
Pretty succinct description…! *g*
Thank you! Much appreciated…
Religiously motivated child abuse is a redundancy. Can’t think of any other reason for intimidating children with religion that isn’t abusive.
Good night and thank you for a lively conversation
Franco Sacchi Co-Director
Thank you all so much,
thanks Lisa
Aloha, Lisa… Mahalo, David and Kate…! ;-)
Good luck with your film.
Aloha, Franco…! ;-)
The sins of the fathers….until someone wakes up and says, no, I don’t think that’s the way it really is.
Missed all the fun, but just read the post, and want to thank Lisa Derrick and her guest for a completely enthralling post and vid clip.
These are issues I’ve held an interest in this past decade, some of it since I was a wee lad. Needless to say, I’m not an advocate for organized religions of any sorts, and above are many of the reasons why I’m not.
Bless ya Lisa D, and thanks to your guest.
As our enemies gather and mass, so must we all assemble and come together to preserve some semblance of sanity based on science, a sense of humanity and to preserve the species despite its apparent proclivity worldwide to destroy ourselves!
*G*
Thank you for the visit, Kate, Franco and David. I’ll be contacting The Beach Theatre on St Pete Beach about screening the film. Might even bring up “My Name is Rachel Corrie” at the same time.
Sun Tsu would concur, thousands of years ago . . .
Research and understanding have their prices . . . well worth the rash, if you glean.
Ya gotta martyr yerself for that good stuff, hoss . . . .
For a satirical impression, see “Rapture Rupture,” embedded in the post: “McCain Gets End Times Endorsement”, http://www.urantiansojourn.com/2008/02/mccain-gets-end-times-endorsement.
I gleaned. It was well worth it. Actually, that time strengthened my own very high theological beliefs/questions.
I can’t help myself:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=rapture+debbie+harry&aq=0&oq=rapture+debbie+&aqi=g1
keep me posted fer sure! are you on facebook?
Clearly Lloyd Blankfein is God’s chosen profit from Ecclesiastes.
To everything churn, churn, churn …
Yes, I am. Deborah Moore
Like minds… see my 117
Click on her facebook icon.
Excellent movie night; (end) timesly discussion, too, Lisa — thanks
I think I told you about a video series study my pastor did last year, Living The Questions (on youtube). The woman Barbara Rossing who is featured in video clip at the top was featured in the series, talking about that crazy John Nelson Darby who in the 19th century created the Rapture. She’s got a book out called The Rapture: Exposed.
Joe Lieberman is a friend of CUFI’s founder pastor John Hagee:
Lieberman, Hagee hook up at CUFI parley | JTA – Jewish & Israel NewsJul 23, 2008 … The choir danced a hora, the fiddler played a hoedown, Joe Lieberman cited scripture and Pastor John Hagee said his enemies would never draw …
jta.org/news/article/2008/07/23/109594/hageeliberman – Cached
find me there…we’ll discuss!
Will do.
Glad you brought that up.
My understanding is that the Rapture is not even in the Bible.
Okay I can’t resist…. The revealing science of God,and a place to hum it .
God is love .
http://www.auroville.org/
Shit, there are 66 lisa derricks. Now what? Do you have the same photo at FB as you do above?
Gotta run. We’ll hook up.
Gitcheegumee @ 191
Nope, it comes from a series of novels known as the “Left Behind” series.
Professor Bart D. Ehrman, Professor of Religious Studies, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill has a course, and a book, on the history of the New Testament. One interesting segment is the modern interpretation of The Book of Revelation of St John the Divine, more commonly known as Revelations. He says the End Timers have it all wrong, that it addressed conditions at the time and was not a prophetic text.
Savitri come home .
Thank God for the First Amendment!
In a mini-church/state armageddon from 2006, Jamie Raskin, professor of constitutional law at American University, testified before Maryland’s Senate Judicial Proceedings commmittee arguing against restrictive marriage rights based on religious biblical interpretation.
His retort to Barbara Jacobs, a republican state senator who opined that her vote was dictated by her religious beliefs, is now famous:
“People place their hand on the Bible and swear an oath to uphold the Constitution; they don’t put their hand on the Constitution and swear an oath to uphold the Bible.”
Source: http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/raskin.asp
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. -Joseph Campbell
For those who don’t know how these people talk amongst themselves, I suggest this Rapture Ready thread.
I’m ready to get the DVD of this and other documentaries featured by First Run–as soon as they start to provide subs or closed captions. There’s a huge audience of deaf and hearing impaired missing these.