It’s been a year since the Israelis launched their Operation Cast Lead attack on Gaza. A year in which world leaders pledged aid and change and hope but delivered nothing. And once again Israel is poking Gaza, perhaps in an effort to once again provoke the rockets which then become the excuse for more. After all, Netanyahu has said that the attack “did not go far enough” and “stopped too soon.”
And the people of Gaza, living in desperate conditions a year ago now live their lives in the rubble left by the Israeli attack:
Until a year ago, Kamal Awaja would often spend the hour before dusk in his garden, teaching his six children the names of the trees and flowers, and encouragiong each one to pick a shrub as their own. Ibrahim, his nine-year-old son, chose the red rosebush.
But a year ago today, everything changed as Israel launched its military offensive against the Hamas militants who run Gaza. After a week of fierce fighting, the gun-barrel of a tank smashed through the family’s living room window, forcing them to flee to nearby fields as their house was demolished.
Then, as they crept back at dawn to salvage warm clothes, Israeli soldiers opened fire. Both Awaja parents were wounded, and Ibrahim was hit fatally, dying in his father’s arms as he tried to rescue him.
But reliving her son’s death a year later, there is another, more harrowing detail that preys on Mrs Awaja’s mind. She says that as she hid behind a wall while her husband limped away to find help, Israeli soldiers used Ibrahim’s corpse, which was lying in a road, as target practice.
“Each time the bullets would hit, his body leapt up off the road a little bit,” she said. “It was as though he could still feel the pain even though he was already dead.”…
For the Awaja family, home is now a pair of tents set amid the partially cleared rubble of what was once a neighbourhood in the town of Beit Lahia..
Once comfortably off with a job as a radio presenter, Mr Awaja feeds his family on charity handouts cooked by his wife on a primus stove.
Gideon Levy, questioning the value of Operation Cast Lead for Isreal writes in Haaretz:
The world saw the Israeli Goliath strike mercilessly at the Palestinian David. It saw the balance of killing: one Israeli to every 100 Palestinians, and the Israel Defense Forces’ new and terrifying doctrine by which almost everything goes if it prevents casualties on our side. The world knew that in this case a democracy was striking a region that does not enjoy self-determination, whose inhabitants lack basic human rights – refugees and the children of refugees living under siege. So the world responded with justifiable severity toward us; it refused to forgive and be silent.
The world also saw Israel wrap itself in sick apathy despite what was happening. It saw the town squares almost empty of protesters, the cafes in Tel Aviv full of people having a good time. It even saw Israeli families who went to visit the hills around Gaza to show their children the bomb strikes. Later, it also saw that Israel was not even prepared to investigate what it had done, but rather lashed out at all its detractors.
And the world also quickly forgot. A year later, with $4.5 billion collected to rehabilitate Gaza lying in banks’ basement vaults because Israel refuses to open Gaza’s gates to let in supplies, the world is silent, leaving Gaza to its fate, to its ruins. But Gaza has not forgotten its wounds – it cannot forget them. The 325,000 people whose homes were destroyed, 1,300 bereaved families and thousands of injured and disabled, debilitated by anxiety and terror, remain in Gaza.
As “Naomi Zion, a peace campaigner who lives near Sderot” in Israel reminds us all:
“We lost the ability to see the other side; people just don’t care,” she says. “We lost our empathy skills – and when you lose that, you lose your humanity.”



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Aloha, Siun…! *g*
Thank you Siun. Hope we can figure this out.
Siun, I just cross posted this from RP into the Seminal… I don’t see it yet, but, could you remark…? *g*
siun, I cringe, it hurts, makes me mad, reveals my impotence, bathes me in waves of hopelessness….damn!
Evening all!
It is such a sad and horrid mess.
I do have some hope for the Palestinians… War crimes has no statute of limitations…! Lady Justice can take her sweet old time…! ;-)
Hi CT … I can’t get the link – could you resend?
Here… M’dear…! *g*
What does Israel hope to accomplish in Gaza?
Now Egypt is not allowing the Viva Palestina convoy to enter Gaza.
And building below ground barriers to close off the tunnels, Gaza’s only lifeline.
Yer being Rhetorical… Right…? *g*
From what Israel DOES, I would suggest that their intent is to totally destroy the Palestinians in Gaza, whether by bombs or starvation is immaterial. The Israeli government wants the land, and they want the huge natural gas reserves that are in an area controlled by Gaza.
That is the reason for the attacks – poke a caged animal and it will respond, then cry about being victimized by the horrid beast.
That is also why they continue to build settlements encroaching even further into the West Bank – and even though this was a point of many of the so-called peace accords signed over the years, Israel has never even slowed down the construction. Now, with that horrendous wall, the Left Bank is a totally splintered land with no access to farmlands etc. Israel wants the water there. And the land.
That would be my hypothesis.
shiny object
http://www.irannewsnow.com/2009/12/live-blog-ashura/
Interesting diary CT and interesting question.
I am very hesitant to try to say what is happening in Iran since the amount of spin on all sides makes sorting things out very hard. I think it’s critical to remember that the Iranian protestors are not asking for US help or interference and are not asking for an end to their govt or a removal of the spiritual role in that government. They have – after all – adopted the color Green which is often the color of Islam.
There’s clearly a very large and courageous movement demanding a shift and displeased with the current leadership – but there’s also an immense population that supports Ahmadinejad and we can’t ignore that.
Too True…! 8-(
He dang sure didn’t impress any of them today…! ;-)
Not only my hypothesis, but my prediction that Israel will succeed because the world, including the Arabs, does not care about the Palestinians. Israel has been clever at getting the U.S. to buy off any objections from Arabs.
I’ll add that I am very drawn to the protesters in Iran and hope that over time they win their push for greater “democracy” and rights … perhaps they then can teach *us* how they did it!
I have found it extremely interesting that one of the so-called reasons for our invasion of Iraq was “that Saddam Hussein was violating a UN resolution”. Israel has violated a whole bunch of them, including several on the subject of that wall, and further settlement building among others.
So if our foreign policy is to be consistent, shouldn’t we invade Israel?
(not)
But in the least case, why can’t we stop selling them weapons, and refuse any more foreign aid until they comply?
Just askin’
I sure do hope that the U.S. isn’t supporting the Iranian protesters.
Silly you. According to eCAHN rule #1, hypocrisy is not unique to religion & democracy, it’s just heavily concentrated there. U.S-Israel combines both hypocrisies.
Speaking of parallels, how about illegitimate elections (Iran, Afghanistan) where we have either openly endorsed the outcome, or quietly looked the other way
versus
a legitimate election by all accounts of international observers in Gaza – which we promptly denounced and cut off all aid to the country because we didn’t like who they elected.
Hmmm.
Aside from some threats of prosecution making some Israeli leaders think twice about travel abroad – and some boycotts … there’s been virtually no action in response to the horrors we saw last year – and our government’s unwillingness to comply with the Amnesty Intl request that we withhold arms was not even noticed it seems.
Yeah I know. Asking for consistency in our foreign policy is like thinking that I can cut a piece of cheese off the moon. *g*
Let’s hope that the protesters are mostly still alive when they do “over time” get those rights.
Not to worry, everyone, Obama gave a speech in Cairo so everything is cool between us and the Moslem world. It is so easy for people to misunderstand our intentions when we have armies in a couple Moslem countries and bomb a few others from time to time, and back Israel when it does the same to yet others. But like I said, Obama gave a speech so it’s all fixed up.
It’s hopeless, near as I can tell. I remember a brief spate of optimism a year ago because Israel’s invasion was so disproportional, it would surely give rise to international anger. Yawn.
precisely
eCAHN, the only ‘Arabs’ benefiting from the Palestinian’s plight is the House of Saud… Okay, toss in their cousins the Bin Ladin’s, too…! 8-(
That’s an easy one. The Israeli government responds to any criticism no matter how valid with cries of anti-Semitism. And that card is enough to shut up almost anyone. After all, you don’t want to be put into that classification…
How do we know that might makes right? Because might says so.
What, you thought that applied only to American foreign policy?
And what face our own arsenal… hyped up on steroids even…! Are you f*cking insane…? ;-)
The Israeli attacks on Lebanon were also disproportional – but the people there proved able to defend themselves pretty well. In Gaza not so much. But in any case, no one dares to criticize Israel even when they are totally in the wrong on any number of counts.
Right. And they probably wouldn’t hesitate to use some of those non-existent nukes either.
:(
Egpyt gets what, $3 billion a year in foreign aid from the U.S. (thank you Jimmy the Prez Carter) to be a slave to Israel.
Good luck on that one.
Israel owns enough of Congress to make sure that won’t happen.
Yeah, second holocaust. Only this time it’s Israel as the perp, doing it in slomo so no one will notice.
What’s funny (in a sick way) about the Gaza invasion that Israel didn’t even “win” there. Yeah, in the long run Israel will kill or exile every single Gazan, but the invasion didn’t accomplish much in the short run.
Yup. For all our belief that we are the super-power it is actually Israel that calls the shots for us. They are the true super-power. They manage to run foreign policy here and most everywhere else.
Uh oh. Now I’m starting to sound like a conspiracy nut…or not.
*heh* How far does $3 Bil goes these days…? Enough to pay off the ‘Muslim Brotherhood’…? Not at the current rate of inflation…! ;-)
I think it’s not much of a conspiracy. I think the Palestians are so weak and so easy to tweek that it doesn’t take much effort for the Israelis to villify them, resulting in all the support that Israel desires. Yes, AIPAC is powerful but their job is really really easy. Remember neocons have a Jewish core who saw that Israel could slap around a small group, and thought the hyperpower could really really do it.
They did assassinate 3 ‘suspected’ Hamas militants on Xmas… No weapons were found nearby initially and then miraculously several ‘weapons’ were found ‘nearby’…!
Not sure what the actual amount is (help Siun, if you know), but it is in any event large enought the at the Egyptians will do anything to avoid losing it.
Missed that owing to family getogether. Thanks for the heads up.
Sorry to be OT but I’ve been away for awhile and I’m just checking in to see who Obama has stabbed in the back while I was away.
I’ve always wondered how these “suspected Hamas/al Quaeda/Taliban/insert- insurgent-group-of-choice militants” are identified.
Do they wear a badge or a sign on their forehead or something?
The US is guilty of the same thing. Every time we kill someone it’s always one of those al Quaeda or Taliban people. Since none of them wear uniforms and they are all part of the indigenous population, how do we know that?
No worries, he’s on vacation in the foreign country of Hawaii.
If they have brown skin we just know. We have to protect ourselves from the terrorists. /s
You can get a sense of the answer by watching the videos from the Guardian’s investigation of Israeli war crimes in Gaza (see left hand side of this page: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/series/gaza-war-crimes-investigation )
Gaza Freedom March
Hey now… I’m residing in that ‘Foreign Country’…! Aloha…! 8-P
Well, they’re certainly not wearing a uniform…! ;-)
Ha! Wish I was – it’s 14 degrees and snowing here!
That’s your prob… eh…? ;-)
Netanyahu seems to be trying to form a war government by reaching out to Livni. He has stated his reasons to be the threats to Israel from Iran and Goldstone. He demanded an answer by tonight. However it appears that she has for the time being refused his offer. Link.
So he has an alibi?
Thanks for that link …
Not encouraging given the talk that China has been told we would not be able to stop an Israeli attack on Iran … nor in light of the increased heat on Gaza again.
You wrote:
Obviously they want them to leave – they figure if life is impossible enough, long enough the poor Palestinian will give up and leave. Then they can claim the land as theirs. To support long term depopulation of the area the IDF especially likes killing young Palestinian girls – that cuts the future birth rate.
The Hamas constitution not only calls for the destruction of Israel, it calls for the murder of all Jews worldwide. Hamas represents fundamentalist Islam at its worst–misogynistic, homophobic, barbaric, violent and superstitious. It brutalized and tortured its rivals in Fatah, including the gouging out of eyes. Why no outcry about that?
If Cuba were launching rockets into Miami because of the U.S. embargo, how long before the U.S. turned it into a parking lot? Israel’s failure was in waiting so long to respond militarily and then not finishing the job.
Sounds like you are proposing a final solution.
-G
No, just doing what’s necessary to survive, which sometimes means winning a war, as the President recently expressed when accepting the Nobel Prize.
Israel is a progressive western state, imperfect but more tolerant and liberal than the U.S. and Europe. That some on the left prefer an organization like Hamas is reminiscent of the Communists who allied themselves with the Nazis until Hitler stabbed them in the back.
Churchill, Roosevelt and Truman did what was necessary to win W.W.II. The bombings of fire-bombings of Tokyo and Dresden, the destruction of Berlin and the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary actions taken by leaders who knew that there was no choice. They were not war criminals, and neither are the Israeli leaders who belatedly took military action to stop the barrage of rockets coming from Gaza.
Hamas is guilty of two war crimes. First it launched rockets deliberately at civilian areas in Israel. Second it did so from civilian areas like schools, mosques and hospitals, and used civilians as human shields. The responsibility for what happened lies with Hamas.
Where is the outcry about what Hamas did to Fatah?
Why does this scrap of land have the ability to strip otherwise rational people of all reason? I’m amused at how easily we fall into predictable notions, stupid moral equivalence arguments, and convenient stereotypes, among the most amusing:
1. Modern blood libel i.e. they want to kill Palestinian girls to control population, they kill people for their organs–I guess I shouldn’t have to explain this, but this stuff is bullshit. If you believe it, you’re stupid, when you say it, people know you’re stupid/nuts.
2. Israel’s survival is always at stake–despite the conscripted army, nuclear arsenal and the world’s only superpower as their closest ally. But hey, I guess they are small.
3. Any action Israel takes is necessary/justified and requires American support(see number 2)–No matter how many people die as a result, no matter how much terrorism it breeds, or what craven political motives drive it. No matter if the goals could have been accomplished other ways.
4. The Palestinians/Arabs are all terrorists or support terrorism, you just can’t trust them–despite the fact that the Israeli economy relies on them and the majority would prefer to be able to work and live with a nation to call their own.
5. Israel’s only interests are in peace and security–The current Likud Party platform pretty much blows this one away. Look at the settlement activity, Netanyahu’s past statements along with the popularity of racist/expansionist Avigdor Lieberman and his nutty party. Ever hear the phrase “Greater Israel?”
6. That you and all of your friends can/should throw rocks at an IDF with a submachinegun and not expect to get shot–Really? See how that works out for you.
7. Letting Syria and Iran use them as a proxy was their only choice Hamas had to help the Palestinian/Gazan cause.–I’m pretty sure all this did was to help justify/provoke a horrific war and siege which makes neither side more secure or healthy, but helps both sides shore up their political base.
There are more, but those spring to mind. I have always regretted stating an opinion about this issue before, so I dare you all to make me again.
Some quick responses to each of your points:
1. Agree, and the people who promote this know it’s a lie.
2. Israel’s enemies would destroy it if they could. It’s very existence, not its borders, is the root of the conflict. Otherwise the land would have been divided decades ago. But the Arabs cannot accept an infidel state on what they consider to be holy Muslim land. Further, a state has the obligation to protect its citizens. Neither the U.S. nor any other state would tolerate rockets being launched from one of its neighbors. Israel had the right to take the action required to stop Hamas from continuing to terrorize southern Israel.
3. The U.S. should support Israel because it is in our interest to do so. It’s the only democracy in the Middle East and shares our values. Israel is the target of attacks as the surrogate of the West in that part of the world. Israel is the “Little Satan,” and the U.S. is the “Great Satan.” Remember the celebrations in Palestinian cities on 9/11, with candy being handed out to children on the streets.
4. Hamas was popularly elected by the Palestinian people, because of, not despite, its constitution. Polls repeatedly show that most of the Palestinians support suicide bombers and oppose the existence of a Jewish state.
5. Israel has the better legal claim to the area known as the West Bank. There was never a Palestinian state throughout history–no Palestinian king, queen, currency or distinct language. After the Jews were dispersed by the Romans almost 2000 years ago, the geographic area was run by a series of occupiers. The Ottoman Empire controlled it for several hundred years until the British took it away in World War I. In 1922 the League of Nations approved the British Mandate for Palestine, which was shortly thereafter supported by an act of both houses of Congress and approved by the President (as the U.S. was not part of the League of Nations). The Mandate for Palestine dedicated all of the land west of the Jordan River, including the area inside the Green Line, the Golan Heights, Gaza and the West Bank as the homeland for the Jews. That international legal act has never been overturned, and was incorporated into the U.N. Charter. The Partition Plan of 1947 was accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs so never became more than a recommendation. Jordan seized the West Bank in 1948 and held it until 1967, when it lost it to Israel in the Six Day War. There was no clamoring for a Palestinian state during that time period when Jordan had control. Why not? The point of this is that there is no “occupation,” and Israel has every right to settle the land. That the Arabs demand it be “judenrein” is racist.
6. Agree.
7. Hamas’ alliance with Iran is ideological and religious. They are Muslim fundamentalists. Hamas is an Iranian proxy, as is Hezbollah in the North.
[edited by mod] comment of the week.
Where did you pull that bit of blather from?
[mod note: Please don't insult other commenters. Thanks.]
Seige?
1. Humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip has increased by close to 900 percent in 2009 compared to the previous year
2. Since the beginning of 2009, the IDF has allowed over 4,000 Palestinians from Gaza, together with 3,600 escorts, to enter Israel (or via Israel to the West Bank) for medical treatment.The IDF has also issued over 18,500 permits for Palestinians to leave Gaza and enter Israel or travel overseas (statistics as of November 16, 2009).
3. COGAT announces the successful transfer of six water desalination systems to the Gaza Strip: On Dec. 21, 2009, six advanced water desalination systems were transferred to the Gaza Strip.
4. Here is an example from one week in December
Weekly summary of the Gaza crossings: 13-19 Dec 2009
- 553 truckloads (13,587 tons) of humanitarian aid were transferred to the Gaza Strip via the Kerem Shalom cargo terminal and the Karni conveyor belt.
- 2,024,628 liters of heavy-duty diesel for the Gaza power station and 604 tons of cooking gas were delivered via the Kerem Shalom crossing and the Nahal Oz fuel depot.
- 298 Gaza residents entered Israel for medical reasons and 135 humanitarian cases crossed via the Erez Crossing.
- 50,000 carnations were exported from the Gaza Strip, and 200 liters of pesticides were imported in preparation for the planting season.
Here is how Arabs treated Jews under siege
Starting in early 1948, the Arab forces had severed the supply line supply line to Jewish Jerusalem (especially to the Old City). In response, the mayor of Jerusalem, Dov Yosef, introduced a draconian system of food rationing during the siege.[10] The mallow plant played an important role in Jerusalem history at this time. When convoys bearing foodstuffs could not reach the city, the residents of Jerusalem went out to the fields to pick mallow leaves, which are rich in iron and vitamins. The Jerusalem radio station, Kol Hamagen, broadcast instructions for cooking mallow. When the broadcasts were picked up in Jordan, they sparked victory celebrations. Radio Amman announced that the fact that the Jews were eating leaves, food for donkeys and cattle, was a sign that they were dying of starvation and would soon surrender.[11]
gaza is under blockade, dave. very clearly. how you can point to what has been allowed into gaza, without noted what hasn’t been allowed in or noting that the verb is allowed?
The COMMENT that the IDF concentrates on killing young girls is an assertion that’s a gross pile of vile-smelling shit and belongs somewhere other than here.
One might be led to speculate if the commenter has anything rational which would permit printing such stuff or if it is nothing other than demented garbage.
Why wouldn’t Israel have every right to control what and who travels through one of its borders? Any sovereign state has that right.
I really am amused by that.
I like a high level of dishonesty as a start to conversation.
How about you define Israel’s borders if you want to go further into foolishness.
You are easily amused. Israel’s borders are, of course, a matter of dispute. According to international law, i.e., the Mandate for Palestine adopted by the League of Nations in 1922, ratified by both houses of Congress and the President of the United States that same year, and incorporated into the charter of the United Nations, Israel’s borders include within them everything within the pre-armistice lines of 1949, the Golan Heights, Judea and Samaria (labeled the West Bank by Jordan after Jordan illegally seized that territory in 1948), and Gaza. Israel has voluntarily withdrawn from Gaza, but the line at which one enters or leaves Gaza and then leaves or enters Israel is the border with Gaza.
There are ignorant fanatics who label Judea and Samaria “occupied” territory, even though that’s a fabrication, because that territory did not belong to a Palestinian state before Israel liberated it in 1967. Assuming one ignores the Mandate for Palestine and international law, the entity that controlled Judea and Samaria from 1948 to 1967 was Jordan, which not only seized it in defiance of the U.N. Partition Plan of 1947, but formally abandoned all claim to the land in 1988. Prior to that the British controlled it pursuant to the Mandate, and the British abandoned it. Israel’s possession of that land therefore cannot legitimately be labeled an occupation.
As for Gaza, Egypt is free to control it border with Gaza. The Israelis are under no greater obligation to help the Arabs in Gaza than are the Egyptians.
So when exactly did the league of Nations declare that sovereignty to Palestine had passed and why didn’t the League’s grant of sovereignty include clear territorial borders?
And there are also ignorant fanatics who label Judea and Samaria as Judea and Samaria.
Here are some photos from the Palestinian newspaper Palestine Today of Gazan’s starving from the siege.
http://www.paltoday.com/arabic/News-64161.html
I would prefer to see current photos of Ariel Sharon.
Judea and Samaria are the names of the territories as they were known before Jordan seized them in 1948 in defiance of the U.N. Partition Plan and renamed them collectively the West Bank in order to claim them.. It’s revealing that nobody was claiming those territories were “occupied” or that a Palestinian state needed to be created there. That happened only after Israel liberated those territories in 1967. Jordan relinquished any claim to those territories in 1988. By what legal doctrine are they “occupied” by Israel if they were not seized from a sovereign state that rightfully claims it?
The Mandate of Palestine did declare the borders of the Jewish homeland and those borders include Judea and Samaria, Gaza, the area inside the Green Line and the Golan Heights. The U.N. proposed its partition plan in 1947 that would have afforded a portion of that territory to yet another Arab state (the 23rd), and the Jews accepted the partition, but the Arabs rejected that plan. Jordan seized the territory for itself only to lose it to Israel in 1967. The Arabs can cry and scream all they want, but they don’t get a “do-over.”
Who was it that knew them by those names and used those names? Are those terms used by the League of Nations either in the 1920s or at the time that the League of Nations held the vote to declare that sovereignty had passed?
What is the UN? Is this some organization that’s recognized by Israel?
Please remind me of the date that the League of Nations and its several members conferred sovereignty on that homeland for Jews that in no way would effect the rights of the other inhabitants and whose homeland didn’t include sole sovereignty over Jerusalem.
The area was generally known as The Holy Land. That the Jewish homeland was to be created on the land west of the Jordan River is undisputed. In fact, the area now known as Jordan was also supposed to be part of the Jewish homeland according to the Balfour Declaration of 1917. As a sop to the Arabs who were, big surprise, engaged in violent riots, the British subsequently decided to offer the area east of the Jordan River to the Hashemites. Thus, the Mandate for Palestine that was approved in 1922 accorded only the area west of the Jordan River to the Jewish homeland. The area east of the Jordan River became known as Transjordan.
As for the rights of the Arabs in the Jewish homeland, they were to have all “civil and religious” rights, as opposed to political or national rights, which they could find in the Arab states that were simultaneously being created.
Jerusalem clearly fell within the borders of the Jewish state. When Jordan had control of it, Christian access was severely limited and Jewish access was prohibited, and Jewish holy sites were desecrated. In contrast, ever since Israel liberated the entirety of the city in 1967, there is access to everyone.
If, during World War II, the U.S. and England followed the constraints that the Israel-bashers would place on Israel in attempting to quell the rockets from Gaza, the world would be enslaved. Fortunately Churchill, Roosevelt and Truman did what they had to do to win the war, and only the morally perverse would call them war criminals. Israel would be served well to follow their example.
Are you planning on answering any of my questions?
I tire of listening to you recite ideas about theories or possible intentions of people.
When did the League of Nations and it membership pass sovereignty to the state of Palestine?
Either answer that or please move on to other, more recent events concerning the legitimacy of your claims for the borders.
Your latest question makes no sense. There never was a state of Palestine–never a Palestinian king, queen, parliament, currency or distinct language. There are no Palestinian people. There are just Arabs who lived in the geographic area covered by the Mandate. The Arabs themselves vehemently denied the existence of a Palestinian people until 1964, when they created the PLO. If the term “Palestinian” was used before 1948, it was used to refer to the Jews living in the geographic area of the Mandate of Palestine.
If your question was about the year that the League of Nations acknowledged the borders of a future Jewish state, it was in 1922. The U.S. ratified it that same year. That action by the League of Nations was incorporated in the charter of the U.N. and has not been contravened to this day.
The State of Israel was declared in 1948 and recognized by the U.S., the Soviet Union and all of the civilized world. Only the Arab states refused to recognize it, and still do. That’s the cause of the conflict, not a border dispute. The Arabs won’t accept an infidel state of Jews on what they deem to be holy Muslim land, no matter what its borders are.
If this confuses you, try community college and then, if you do well enough, a four-year school.
Saying that the state of Israel was drawn and declared in 1947-8 pretty much puts the lie to your talk about the League of Nations. Whatever the league had to say didn’t amount to a cup of warm spit.
The state of Israel that came into existence and was recognized by the US and the civilized world has nothing at all like the borders from the League.
Those borders were very clearly drawn.
And those borders are nothing at all like the borders that you claim.
I’m a citizen of the United States and my government says and has always said that your Judea and Samaria are the West Bank, are occupied territory, and are not now and will not become, part of Israel.
Thanks for the suggestion, smugass, but my education doesn’t require any further school attendance.
Now, if you would care to try to defend your original hilarious crap about how the blockade of Gaza doesn’t exist because Israel is doing nothing other than controlling its own borders, we can help school your swampgas self a bit more.
Thanks for cracking and revealing the intellectual bankruptcy of your arguments. Try to draw upon your Ivy-league education and respond to the following:
If you believe the territory you like to call “the West Bank” is occupied, to whom does it really belong? By what authority? Are you under the impression there was ever a Palestinian state? If so, when did was it created, what were its borders, by what legal authority, who ran its government, what was its currency, and what was its language? Was it occupied when Jordan held it from 1948 to 1967? If so, why was there no protest by the so-called Palestinians, and if not, why is it occupation for Israel to control it and not Jordan?
By the way, are you equally incensed with the Zionist Egyptians’ blockade of Gaza?
Silly rabbit, did I say that I was incensed by the blockade? or do you assume that because I fail to allow you to deny that there is one?
Just about everybody in the civilized world considers the West bank to be occupied territory. All those same countries who originally recognized the sovereignty of Israel recognize the West Bank as occupied territory.
The state of Israel certainly recognizing that the territories aren’t part of Israel.
Now do you want to cut that crap out and start defending the blockade instead of denying that it exists?
Mentioning anonymous people who call the so-called “West Bank” “occupied” is hardly compelling legal authority. You might as well cite your Aunt Minnie. Can you answer any of the questions I asked in my prior comment? Or are unsupported conclusions that someone considers the territories to be “occupied” sufficient proof for you?
Israel foolishly does not blockade its border with Gaza, but allows in food, water as well as other supplies; it provides electricity to the Gazans. We didn’t supply the Nazis or Japanese during World War II, and the Arabs certainly didn’t provide any supplies to the Jews in Jerusalem during the siege of 1948. What you call a blockade I call controlling the border. The Gazans should focus on getting their fellow Arabs in Egypt for help. In any event, if you support Israel’s and Egypt’s right to restrict who and what goes in and out of Gaza, call it a blockade or anything you want. It’s certainly hypocritical to attack only Israel when the Egyptians are taking even more extreme action.
The governments of the world are composed of people with very real names and their legal authority to call the West Bank occupied territory has the same basis as their ability to call the other territory “Israel”.
Israel legally recognizes that the West Bank is occupied territory.
Israeli courts recognize that the land is “held in belligerent occupation”.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/fencesct.html
The name on the decision is A. Barak. (not anonymous)
Since you’re finally get back to the original discussion of borders, do you wish to begin by declaring whether you regard Gaza as part of Israel, as occupied territory, or as some other thing?
If you’re going with “other”, gimme an idea of what sort of other you like?
macaquerman,
Would you consider writing a diary making your case? I’ve noticed that you have very strong opinions on this subject — and not based on pure emotion either, but based on real information.
Thank you for the suggestion. I’m startled that anyone on FDL would encourage increasing my presence.
I have demonstrated by reference to legal documents that the area the Jordanians called the West Bank belongs to Israel. That some individuals, including some Israelis, use the word “occupied” to advance a political agenda means nothing. There are Israelis who are under the false impression that peace will ensue if only Israel will evacuate Judea and Samaria and allow the establishment of a 23rd Arab state called Palestine, and they resort to the use of misleading language to advance the cause, as do the enemies of Israel. But the history is the history. The Mandate of Palestine clearly delineates the borders of the Jewish homeland, and the eastern border is the Jordan River.
If you claim the land is “occupied,” to whom do you think it really belongs? To Jordan, which seized it in 1948 and then relinquished all claims to it in 1988? To another Arab state that has never existed and that may never be created?
Gaza also belongs legally to the Jewish state pursuant to the same legal documents. The Arabs living there are squatters. Note that when Egypt seized the land in 1948 and held it until 1967, there was no claim of occupation and no clamoring for a Palestinian state. Do you believe Egypt was an occupier? If so, why no complaints about it? If not, why was Israel considered an occupier?
You’ve demonstrated nothing of the kind. None of your references address anything beyond a possible intent by parties by parties not involved with the actual formation of Israel.
You’re marvelously persistent in restating your claims. However, the mandatory power charged with the administration of Palestine set no such borders for Israel. The United Kingdom recognized an Israel that includes neither West Bank nor Jerusalem in Jan49.
The US was the first country to offer recognition and did so on the basis of the borders and within the provisions set out by the UN.
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http://tinyurl.com/2yauj
I hope that you’ll take notice that this text was put out by the Israeli government on the website of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
I hope that you’ll also note the commentary added by the Ministry says that offer of statehood contained in the resolution was accepted by the Jewish people in Palestine.
The government of Israel is on record, as per my previous link, as late as 2004 in saying that it doesn’t hold the West Bank as part of the state of Israel, and that Israel is in occupation of the area.
Questions as to title shouldn’t concern us here beyond noting that you’re wrong in stating that the West Bank is part of Israel.
If no government or competent international organization on this particular planet recognizes a legal claim of ownership, and that the government that you claim owns the West Bank denies your claim, can we stop at that?
As to Gaza, does “also belongs legally to the Jewish state” mean that you think it a part of Israel or that Israel is in occupation of Gaza?
You don’t realize it, but you are proving my point. UN Resolution 181, the Partition Plan, was adopted by the General Assembly. As such, it is not binding international law. Only Security Council resolutions have that effect. When drafting the UN charter, the U.S. and the other large powers made certain that they could not be coerced by a majority vote of smaller, less powerful states.
Moreover, even though the Jews accepted the Partition Plan, the Arabs did not. It is a basic principle of contract law that one party’s acceptance of the terms of a proposal is no longer binding once the other party rejects it. The Arab rejection of the Partition Plan is therefore significant for 2 reasons: (1) it freed the Jews from any obligation thereafter to honor it, and (2) it demonstrated the lack of desire on the part of the Arab world to create yet another state on the land that England had administered under the Mandate. The Arabs’ concern was to prevent the creation of a Jewish state, not to establish a Palestinian state. They don’t get a “do-over.”
As for the Mandate for Palestine, which did have the force of international law behind it, you cite nothing that indicates it was voided. If you can find anything other than your personal feeling that 1922 was too long ago to count, let us all know what it is. But your search will turn up nothing.
Israel has not yet annexed Judea and Samaria, and there is much political disagreement as to whether it is politically wise to do so. It seems to be inevitable, just like the annexation of all of Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. It’s a matter of time.
As for Gaza, Israel certainly isn’t occupying it. It forcibly removed the 8500 Jews living there in 2005 in an effort to appease the Arabs. It’s been ethnically cleansed of Jews. Israel has the legal right to possess that land, but for political reasons hasn’t been interested. The abandonment of Gaza led to the empowerment of Hamas and the launching of thousands of rockets into civilian areas in southern Israel. Perhaps the Netanyahu government has learned that it would be a mistake to repeat that process in the West Bank, as the results would be the same.
The borders of the Jewish homeland are explicitly defined in the Mandate of Palestine. If you insist, I can retype them here. But you’ll only dismiss the document as irrelevant anyway. Let me know if you care.
I have endeavored to answer all your questions, whether or not you like those answers. You have conspicuously ducked mine. Here they are again:
1. If you believe the West Bank is “occupied,” to whom does it belong?
2. Was it occupied when Jordan controlled it from 1948-67. If so, why were there no complaints about it and demand for a Palestinian state. If not, what’s the difference between Jordan’s control and Israel’s?
3. Do you concede there was never a Palestinian state in history? If not, who ruled it, how was it governed, what were its borders, what was its currency, and what was its distinct language?
4. Do you believe Gaza is or was occupied by Israel? If so, to whom does it belong? Was it occupied when Egypt controlled it from 1948-67? If so, why were there no complaints about occupation or demand for a Palestinian state? If not, why was Egypt’s control different from Israel’s?
5. Finally, other than the UN General Assembly Resolution 181, which was rejected by the Arabs and did not have the legal effect of a Security Council Resolution, what legal document says that Israel is occupying the area you call the West Bank?
It’s clear that because the Jews accepted the sovereignty offer and the Palestinians didn’t accept the offer of sovereignty from the UN that as a matter of contract law that Israel doesn’t exist and never has existed.
This is so because it’s a bedrock principle of contract law that if one party accepts an offer and seals a contract, a different party, by refusing a separate offer renders the first contract void.
This I remember from my childhood when my mother offered both my sister and myself a quarter if we washed our own clothes. I washed all of mine. Because she didn’t wash any of hers, I wasn’t owed a quarter.
Later my sister decided to wear my shirt to school because she had no clean clothes.
Therefore, I thought, I could now own all her clothes and some others that she had borrowed from a friend.
I kept her clothes, sold her friends clothes, insisted that they needed permits from me to buy new stuff, and sometimes refused to let them leave the house over the next few years.
I might read past the first two paragraphs of your latest nonsense later.
Take the snide remarks outside. Stay on topic respectfully, or cease.
~~~EDITED IN MODERATION~~~give some thought about why you sympathies lie with Hamas, an organization that oppresses women, supports honor killings, brutalizes homosexuals, tortures and maims its political opponents in Fatah, lionizes suicide bombers, and advocates in its constitution the murder of all Jews worldwide. Tragic as the plight of the Gazans is, they voted for Hamas and are responsible for the consequences. The German and Japanese people suffered terribly as a result of World War II, but they brought it on themselves with the leaders they chose. It’s the same in Gaza.
And answer the questions, or admit that history is irrelevant to your political opinions.
~~~ModNote: Take the insults elsewhere.~~~
smgxxx while I welcome vigorous and always respectful exchange of nothing beyond closely-reasoned and dispassionately presented information invariably within a collegial, well-neigh familial, frame, I am having difficulty in grasping the point at which you, I am sure, keenly discerned that I am holding high regard for Hamas.
I would hope that I have not somehow, through either active or omissive means, given cause for such thoughts within the duration of this interchange.
I most humbly beg you to point out where this thought about Hamas has it’s origin.
I, if both yourself and the sensibilities of our wonderful and overburdened moderator allow, would like to submit that I actually consider Hamas, in its entirety, a bunch of scum-sucking terrorist murderers, whose existence serves nobody and not merely the Palestinian people that they so dishonestly misrepresent.
So again, my good smgxxx, please quote my words wherein I say something inconsistent with these last thoughts, so that I may properly atone .
You have not praised Hamas, and to the extent I wrongly inferred it, I apologize. I was misled by your repetition of cliches about the “occupation.” In view of your clear-eyed view of Hamas, do you join in the chorus of critics of Israel’s actions to defeat it?
One more thing. You claim that that Hamas “dishonestly misrepresents” the Palestinian people. The sad truth is that Hamas won and election fair and square. The Palestinian people are not victims of Hamas; they are one and the same. That’s what Israel is dealing with.
Would you posit that the US (and the planet) were deserving of Bush 43 because he was ‘elected?’
That 43 represented the nation honorably? In it’s best interests?
Twice?
Hamas did not enter the election with either expectation, hope or desire for victory.
I strongly adhere to the idea that the everyday people voted less for Hamas then they voted to end the endless corruption and indifferent inefficiencies of Fatah.
If “none of the above” was on the ballot, …..
I would ask you to consider that the Palestinian people are actual and approximately ordinary human beings that have been miseducated and screwed over for all their days.
I don’t know the origins of your information about Gaza, but I doubt that Hamas is wildly popular in the private thoughts of the populace.
If the people and Hamas were identical, Hamas wouldn’t be killing and imprisoning Gazans at the rate that they are.
repealing the last presidential election and restoring the Bush presidency by petition, co-sponsored by Dic
It would be comforting the believe that the Gazans are choking under the yoke of Hamas, but there’s no sign of it. There is no rebellion as is brewing in Iran. To the extent there is a division in Palestinian society, it’s between Hamas and Fatah, which is scarcely better. Even if one accepts the characterization of Fatah as “moderate,” the tide is heavily in favor of Hamas. If the IDF were to leave the West Bank, Abbas would be quickly overthrown and likely killed. How can anyone expect Israel to make a deal with Abbas with the knowledge that Hamas will refuse to be bound by any agreement he makes? In any event, there is no Sadat on the horizon.
As for the question about whether the American people deserved the consequences of electing Bush twice, there are 2 obvious answers: (1) of course, and (2) whatever one thinks of Bush, Obama, Clinton or any other U.S. President, none of them is remotely comparable to Hamas.
I haven’t here tried to suggest any particular course of action for Israel, because the situationas I see it is so balled up that I guess that neither the Israelis, nor Fatah, nor the Gazan people have a good and still really save move to make without some agreement with the other parties or some solid outside guarantees.
I would also guess that it’s not really safe to not make a move either.
There’s a good word from the world of chess for the current position, but I won’t use it for fear that the mod might think that I’m cursing in German.
What I might suggest is that Israel’s best interest is served by putting a good deal of effort into insuring that the blockade stops doing much more than preventing the transfer of heavy weaponry.
Zugswang.
There is nothing Israel can do to make peace. There have been numerous efforts to divide the land as early as the Peel Commission recommendation in 1937, the UN Partition Plan of 1947 (General Assembly Resolution 181), the offer brokered by Clinton at Camp David in 2000, and Olmert’s offer last year. All have been rejected by the Arabs because the issue is religious, not territorial. If a Palestinian Sadat were to appear on the scene with the power to implement a deal, most Israelis would leap at the chance. But it’s not going to happen. The Israelis have no choice but to hang tough for as long as it takes for the Arab world to accept that it’s not going away.
There’s little that Israel can currently do to forge a reasonable peace deal absent a big bunch of meaningful and tangible guarantees from the US, EU, and the Arab states, and nothing can happen until Iran ceases to stir the pot, but that doesn’t mean that Israel has to continue along the same path it’s been going down.
That’s a sure loser.
Israel has to find a way to change some things that it does that produce was too much misery for the Palestinians and gains way too little for the Israelis.
And it has to move first.
Concessions seem to backfire. It seems that the more than 1000 Gazans who were killed during Cast Lead would still be alive had Israel not withdrawn from Gaza in 2005, which started the chain of events leading to today’s situation. Barak’s offer at Camp David in 2000 caused Arafat to initiate the 2nd intifada. The fence/wall is ugly and causes hardships but has resulted in a marked decrease in terror attacks. Netanyahu has lifted some road blocks and a few days ago there was a shooting. I expect more terror attacks in the West Bank. The lesson is an unhappy one but obvious.