Apparently Jane Hamsher has decided that a healthcare bill that provides a trillion dollars worth of benefit to low and middle income workers is so odious that mere opposition isn’t enough. Nor is opposition that increasingly employs the worst kind of right-wing talking points. No, it’s so odious that it deserves a scorched earth campaign against the Obama White House in partnership with Grover Norquist. Hard to know what to say about this. What’s next? A joint Twitter campaign with Sarah Palin? A letter writing campaign cosponsored by Richard Viguerie? A joint lawsuit with Orly Taitz? Jeebus.
I guess Kevin wasn’t around two weeks ago when Campaign for America’s Future put together a letter seeking to stop Ben Bernanke from being confirmed until the Fed had been audited:
Without this audit, Congress lacks the information it needs to evaluate Mr. Bernanke’s performance. Therefore the Senate should delay action on Mr. Bernanke’s reappointment until an audit of the Fed’s books takes place, the results are made available to the Congress and Mr. Bernanke answers a serious inquiry into the actions he took.
Sincerely,
Ryan Alexander, president, Taxpayers for Common Sense
Chris Bowers, founder, OpenLeft
Dean Baker, co-director, Center for Economic and Policy Research
Robert Borosage, co-director, Campaign for America’s Future
Danielle Brian, executive director, Project On Government Oversight
Mark Calabria, director of financial regulation studies, Cato Institute
Mark Cohen, executive director, Government Accountability Project
Tom DeWeese, president, American Policy Center
Tyler Durden, founder, Zero Hedge
Sandra Fabry, executive director, Center for Fiscal Accountability
James Kenneth Galbraith, economist
Adam Green, co-founder, Progressive Change Campaign Committee
George Goehl, executive director, National People’s Action
Jane Hamsher, founder, FireDogLake
Gary Kalman, Washington director, Public Interest Research Group
Matt Kibbe, president, FreedomWorks
Grover Norquist, president, Americans for Tax Reform
Duane Parde, president, National Taxpayers Union
Aaron Swartz, co-founder, Progressive Change Campaign Committee
Phyllis Schlafly, president, Eagle Forum
John Tate, president, Campaign for Liberty
John Taylor, CEO, National Community Reinvestment Coalition
Stephanie Taylor, co-founder, Progressive Change Campaign Committee
Robert Weissman, president, Public Citizen
John Whitehead, president, The Rutherford Institute
Or nine long days ago, when CAF circulated another letter opposing Bernanke’s confirmation, signed by Dean Baker, Bob Borosage, David Swanson and…Grover Norquist.
You collect signatures on letters like these to get media traction, to build pressure so someone has to take action. Kevin apparently didn’t read our letter — it’s about a bailout of Fannie/Freddie that they’re trying to jam through before the end of the year, nothing to do with health care. He also apparently slept through the past nine years when people on the right like Bob Barr, Grover Norquist and Bruce Fein were cosigning letters with ACLU civil libertarians all the time when it came to FISA, domestic spying and transparency. It was hard for them to do, because Bush sycophants dismissed them as “traitors” to the president.
For those with short memories: Here’s Wes Clarke, Mort Halperin, John Dean, John Podesta, Grover Norquist, Bruce Fein and Bob Barr on the Liberty and Security Protection Committee of the Constitution Project.
Here’s Alec Baldwin and Grover Norquist speaking on a PFAW panel in opposition to the Patriot Act. Grover cosigned an ACLU letter against the CAPPS airport spying system in 2003, opposed national ID cards with them in 2004, and supported Prof. Lyle Craker and marijuana grown for medical research in 2005. (And just for fun, here’s Kevin himself cheering on Bruce Fein for going after Roy Moore. Apparently that’s only supposed to cut one way.) For those who are strangers to the civil liberties/transparency world, this stuff has been happening for years right on this very blog.
They all know who Grover Norquist is and what his political history is. So do I. That’s not the point.
In this instance, the fact is that most “liberals” who work at institutions can’t step out and take a shot at Rahm, because Rahm would take it out on their organizations. That leaves the people on the right — those out of Rahm’s reach — who can be called upon to get the media “heft” you need to call attention to an issue. The year-end deadline for doubling the Fannie/Freddie commitment to $800 billion was fast approaching, and it’s hard as hell to get media traction on something over the holidays.
So, it’s not an issue of “personalities.” It never should be. It’s about principles. And principles aren’t pliant — you either have them or you don’t. You can’t just use them as a yardstick to measure the inadequacy of people you don’t like, and then throw them away when it comes to your “friends.”
Rahm Emanuel is destroying not only the Democratic majority but the Democratic Party. There isn’t enough pork in the world to hold his “Blue Dogs” in office with the legacy of bailouts that he has engineered, and that’s why his “big tent” is now collapsing in his wake. Parker Griffin, and now (possibly) Chris Carney, may blame Nancy Pelosi for their defections to the GOP, but that’s pure demagogurery. The mess they are fleeing — the corrupt back-room deals, the endless bailouts — belong to Rahm.
The ground is shifting. You can feel it. And the Rahm dead-enders have become no different than the Bush dead-enders, completely unaware that the President whose malfeasance they are defending on the basis that one must not “consort with Republicans” is the one who ran on — consorting with Republicans. It is knee-jerk authoritarianism in the extreme. Rick Warren is okay because Obama says so. Principles? Who needs them.
If Obama/Rahm want to triangulate against progressives (and they do), they’re not the only ones who can make cause with people on the other side of the aisle. If that’s what it takes to shake up the corporate domination of our political system, we’ve done it before and we can do it again. Because working within the traditional political order to support “progressives” whose conviction lasts only as long as it doesn’t matter just doesn’t seem to be working.
Dear Kevin: this is about a $400 billion bank bailout. It’s not about your BFF.




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Yeah, OK. Have fun with your new friends.
Right on, Jane. I don’t know much about what you’re doing, honestly, but the people who are decrying you are playing identity politics, and I hate that.
Dear Jane: I suggest you read Faust.
The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend
Read the post: not new.
I think you will be proven right on this. But, in any event, I like that you are trying something. The same old thing is not working. Getting the President elected did not stop the backroom deals. And even with you anticipating a lot of the legislative moves, the deck was stacked on health care. On a side not, this is also very entertaining and interesting to watch. It may not be your primary goal, but I enjoy your sense of showmanship.
Just because I hate the corrupt GOP doesn’t mean I love Barack W. Obama and the corrupt Democrats.
Thanks, Jane.
Such a relief to read your clear writing, after the lunacy of some comments on the “other” thread.
A question:
I can’t recall: were these two among the Rahm-o-crats that Emanuel funded [with our money] in 2006?
Are there other Rahm-o-crats who may be jumping ship? [To mix metaphors: it's only a short putt for most of 'em.]
I’d would think the class of Rahm-o-crat opportunists would be taking a hard look at the political landscape and thinking that having a “D” next to your name might not be such a good idea in November 2010. So I’m anticipating a lot of these changes.
Exactly, Jane…! *g*
Well, Norquist or no, I’m glad you’re calling out Rahm Emanuel and asking for an Fannie/Freddie investigation.
Rahm couldn’t possibly afraid of the truth, could he /s
Great stuff! The pen, or modern day keyboard, may certainly be mightier than the sword, and I must confess that Jane’s keyboard appears to be just a bit mightier.
Must be those ovaries! Estrogen does affect one’s ability to discern relationships between things that at first appear to be completely unrelated.
Fwiw, I had a mammogram today. Not much fun, and I had been delaying it, because it isn’t very pleasant to have each of your breasts squeezed, individually, and twice, as if in a vise while you hold your breath so that the technician can take a picture. Also, until a few months ago, I was just too damn skinny even to get one.
One of the reasons I finally quit stalling was thinking about all of those women without insurance that will cover an annual screening, or who actually have breast cancer, but who cannot afford the treatment of their choice.
My going without will not help them, and it certainly won’t ensure that I keep on writing and posting here.
Thanks for the update and explanation. Connect.the.dots.
He’s busy after that PhRMA deal.
“There you go man, keep as cool as you can.
Face piles
And piles
Of trials
With smiles.
It riles them to believe
that you perceive
the web they weave
And keep on thinking free.”
The Moody Blues
Because a class struggle is not about merely political outcomes. Thanks Jane and FDL.
The message needs to reach people. The ends justify the means in my opinion. Love you Jane, great work.
Hope you come out okay, Karen, and odds are you will. But I”ll be thinking of you. When do you get the results?
How dare you ally yourself with someone who doesn’t agree with you on everything, Jane! Real liberals would never make peace with someone who opposed their most sacred principles just to accomplish a legislative agenda.
ROFLMSAO!
oh well shit! rahm was on the winning side! hes not supposed to be investigated until his side loses again, years from now, and theres nothing left to investigate. thats how it works in whashington. no wonder the sychophants are calling foul
Kevin Drum seems addicted to shiny objects.
Where does that trillion dollars go, Kevin? From whose pocket does it come? How much of each dollar gets paid to health care and how much goes to further enrich and empower those this Senate bill meekly attempts to regulate? What will they do with that power to gut the benefits of this bill, to enrich themselves yet further, and to foreclose future opportunities for reform?
Mr. Obama has squandered an enormous political moment, presumably based on Rahm Emanuel’s Karl Rove-like calculation that a permanent campaign is so much easier and better (for Villagers) than actually governing. It will not readily come again, but that does not mean it should be used to march one step toward reform and three steps toward government-by-corporate fiat.
Reaching across the bile?
Thanks, Jane!
They want to see the previous films, which I now have to get to them (from where I used to go, until I was dissatisfied), but only because there is what appears to be a small benign cyst. I’m prone to things like that. Frankly, I was reassured, because they looked at my films right away, showed me what was there, and it’s probably nothing. If the previous films don’t show the same thing, then maybe an ultrasound, but I’m honestly not worried about it.
My issues always play out in my digestive system, and I’ve already spent a little more than a decade figuring that out. And that was scary enough for the folks around me.
So is Norquist also against HCR because “mandates” are just another word for tax increases?
OT-ish
(Sorry Jane!)
Amy Klobuchar defended Michelle Bachmann on HCR to Rachel just now. Crap. More “well, they’re concerned about the defecit…can’t afford to add to the defecit” BS. Shame on Rachel for giving her a pass.
FunnyWheelieDiva
ROFLMFAO!
Good one, dood!
FWDiva
Jane, it takes a lot of courage to do what you’re doing. I deeply admire that. Please don’t let them scare you off!
Molly Ivins had a particularly dark humor about mammograms. Something to the effect of laying on the ground and having your boobs driven over by a tank.
Jane you are doing great work for the American People…. don’t let the nay sayers get in your way of doing the important work that the American People are asking for!!
Go Jane!!! all us Pups have your back!!! no doubt about it!!
When your own people turn on you Like Wiener, Sanders, Harkin, Schumer, and Grayson ect..did, then you need to go to extreme measures or sit back and do nothing.
100% support Jane!
Yep I was going to do the same. This is the correct action to use all that is within reach to try and make change happen. It’s really simple don’t give up the dream that all humans can live a liveable life. If everyone practiced random acts of kindness what would the world be? It all has to start some were.
Does it really help your cause(s) to align w/grover? I still think you are being used by the right and diluting your v. fine efforts in the bargain. You disagree, obviously, and have determined that bipartisanship is your way forward. With literally the one of the worst of the right, a guy that should be in jail. Which is not to argue Rahm shouldn’t be in the next cell, I won’t defend him at all.
LOL… Thanks, I’ll remember that one… awfully poignant, though, considering how she died. But she had the most wonderfully clean spirit and a sense of humor that could light up an auditorium.
Jane,
How dare you call attention to Rahm Emanuel’s activities at Freddie Mac and argue that they should be investigated. Holding officials accountable: you’re just way too radical for me.
Seriously, not sure you should bother explaining to the dimmer sort why you’ve done what you’ve done.
Having said that, you could have just told me that it was all part of a master plan that will make sense soon enough rather than watch me have a meltdown till all hours of the night last Sunday!
My wife tells me the same old *sob* story… A grape press was the analogy she kept using… ‘Git ‘er Dun’… Was my constant retort…! ;-)
Jane, have you given any thought to putting together a “here’s what we think will happen [if the rotten Senate bill becomes law]” memo?
I say this not to create a “we told you so,” but to lay out a different “version” of the reasons we’re opposing the Senate bill.
You could take a number of the “claims” by the bill’s proponents [e.g., "30 million without coverage will be covered"] and just lay out what things will look like on each front in 2015 or so. E.g., premiums will have risen because of no competition; employers will have decreased or dropped coverage because of the “tax” on “Cadillac” plans; whatever.
The bill’s proponents have this rosy scenario in their minds. I’d like to put up a competing scenario, and especially be able to revisit it in 2011 or 2013 when a big hunk of it comes true.
Hey, maybe you could get Conan & Andy to do a “in the year 3000″ segment on it!!
Yeah last week I was guilty of imposing “purity tests” on liberals, and letting the “perfect be the enemy of the good.”
Who knew I could be both things at the same time.
So how do you feel about Rick Warren and Obama’s entire campaign based on “bipartisanship?”
Kevin Drum:
Guilt by association: it’s not just for wingnuts anymore.
Keep making those for profit private corporations connections to the politicians sleight of hand behaviors. They are mad at you because you are RIGHT! Keep on keeping on. Some of my best peace vigil pals are from different political persuasions and as long as we share the same principles we can work together.
Good one :)
Whirled peas, Dood, Whirled peas…! ;-)
Have always been of the opinion that if men had to have mammos docs would have come up with a better way decades ago.
Karen best karma to your health, Jane too.
Jane:
I think you’ve got their attention *eg* and great article.
Faust is fiction, this is real life.
I don’t think this is anything like bipartisanship, at least not the brand we’ve seen so much of lately… where it always means liberals/progressives have to lower their expectations and settle for crumbs.
This looks more like a fluid partnership, on those issues where the two factions agree, but not on those where they don’t.
I had to give Bob Barr credit for joining with the ACLU on those civil rights and constitutional issues. He got a lot of grief for it. Not that I necessarily agree with him on much else.
But sometimes either the yin or the yang can become so much their own essence, that they must switch and join or become the other.
Well you know, it takes a while to put these things together, they don’t turn on a dime, and you never know if it’s all going to come together. But thanks for having faith.
My favorite photo of Molly, because I’m in it.
Imagine if diagnosing dick trouble involved the same procedure. *g*
Something to ponder:
Why is it that the Obama Administration and the Senate Democrats are always willing to fight for things they say they don’t like?
Stuff like a HCR giveaway bill to health insurance companies, retroactive immunity for Telcos in the FISA Amendments Act, trillons in bailout money for too-big-to-fail financial institutions, and much more.
And why is it that the Obama Administration and the Senate Democrats are never willing to fight for things they say they do like?
Stuff like a Public Option, EFCA, Dawn Johnsen as OLC head, repeal of DOMA, repeal of DADT, re-instituting Glass–Steagall, and many, many more.
Just why is it that they’ll fight for stuff they claim not to like, and won’t fight for stuff they claim they do like?
Just why is it that?
Thanks, whynot!
My bodily intuition is pretty good… I’m not worried. My “gut” usually knows. ;~)
I’m surprised the recently-announced $73.2 MILLION dollar golden parachute being provided to the retiring Cigna CEO is not getting more traction in this argument.
As someone somewhere else noted, you could tax this @ 90%, and the weasel would still walk away with $7.3 million. [OTOH, the Treasury would get $66 million. Hey . . . . ]
Good point. I’m not really against bipart, I think it makes sense on many levels. Representing all opinions in the country and all that. Still Grover is, I think, worse than Warren, but I’ll grant you that’s a judgment call and a pretty thin line at that.
$$
It’ll never, ever happen. Just imagine the tort law and the malpractice suits for loss of consort!
We need to see the bigger picture – Jane does, and so do I; some folks don’t.
Somehow this hybrid thread of Jane’s justification (which I appreciate) and the personal results of a breast exam work perfectly together.
Ding
Great photo! I love the name of the group… doing what the boys are supposed to be doing. So subversive!
How about developing a highly focused and long-term strategy to right the institutional wrongs? For instance, has there been any talk around here about how to build the momentum of the single-payer movement? I know about PNHP, which is great for information, but I’m not sure that group has the experience or skills to build a national political movement. Is there a group taking the lead on this, a la ACORN but focused on single-payer?
I feel this would be the most effective next step for all this frustration. Going after Bernie Sanders, Grayson, Harkin and so on doesn’t seem to be a good strategy in my opinion. Are we going to take on all of Congress at once?
Focus: The moral of the story.
Dood how be ya???
Karen that’s also an interesting point, are there areas where the left somehow whips around the world and runs smack into the right on common ground for the common interest? Maybe so and I give Jane credit for pushing those boundaries. Just hope the left gets something out of it, instead of pulling moderate libs away from the left, which would be a shame – natural allies and all. That’s what I’m worried about, as a plain urban leftist.
Just a mental tickler.
I love that picture. Those are some beautiful babes!
but it does..
teehee…never was crazy about KD….by the by
No shit right? A howling that would be heard across the land! I’ve got to put my dick in what? And get smashed?
What a shame to treat the girls like that.
Another thought…
This strategy could also be compared to performing a bit of jiujitsu on the whole notion of triangulation. Think how much harder it might be for the DLC/DNC crowd to try to triangulate within the (so-called) party of liberals and progressives, if they are too busy being the focus of far more disparate groups.
Meta?
1980. My how the U.S. has regressed in the last 20 years.
Enjoying the holiday cheer…! ;-)
Unfortunately some on the left only want to beat the republicans, they dont care how much the president gets on tv and lies about what he promised, they just want to beat republicans. The Obama groupies are just as ridiculous as the Bush groupies were.
I kind of got the impression that you and Teddy were enjoying watching me lose it when I thought you were going off the deep end. I was wrong, but only because I can’t read minds! Well played, Ms. Hamsher.
Honestly, this experience has shown me that far too many Progressives are weak willed, totally unable to fight hard to get results. It’s not just the weaklings in Congress, as it turns out.
‘scuse me. Those are some schmart babes.
check!
If I get nothing else out of it but a willingness to keep on slogging, then that’s something.
Frankly, the past few weeks, months, have been pretty dispiriting.
This is an interesting way to find out who’s in Rahm’s Rolodex.
Let’s see: Kevin Drum, John Harwood, . . . who else
Just take notes on everyone who comes out to slam Jane.
One day, Jane Hamsher is dismissed as an ideologue. The next, she’s dismissed for agreeing with Grover Norquist on policy issues. I get confuzzled trying to keep track of it all!
Her critics should collaborate via Google Calendar so we can keep up with the snipe of the day. (Maybe Friday could be Bloggers Lounge Around In Pajamas And Eat Cheetos All Day day.)
This is also my big picture complaint. Consider where we were Nov., 2008-Jan., 2009. An economy in tatters and the culprit evident to all: the corporatist governance that commenced with Reagan in 1981. It was an opportunity for Obama to use his political capital to offer a new–and honest–political narrative that could have provided the basis for progressive governance for years. Instead, he sold us all out.
I’m in my 50′s. I had hopes of living in a decent country with his election. Now, because of his cynicism and incompetence, I–all of us–face more uphill struggles against corporate rape, imperialist war and eroding civil liberties.
The ‘GINI’ score has us surpassing Mexico soon…! ;-)
Well, those aren’t mutually exclusive attributes. In fact I think they have a high correlation.
Hey! Fishing for information… and a photo of the Salmonettes.
Lotsa luck with that…! ;-)
We are also!!
Merry Merry to you & yours CT (:>))
Hope your Holidays are Wonderful!!
I’m in my 50′s, too, and my forties were completely miserable.
I was actually looking forward to enjoying a bit of life for awhile, but looks like more of the same that we’ve had for some time.
That is startling. Where does that cash come from? From the pockets of those who paid premiums but were brutally denied the benefits of the insurance they purchased when it was most needed. Senators and corporate leaders think that behavior deserves showers of laurel leaves.
On the other hand, how irate would Lieberman, Baucus or Conrad be if some Representative, let alone a member of the public, parked in their reserved space or rode with them up their private elevators. That would require calling out the guards and shutting down government until it was sorted out.
It’s an old observation, but something’s rotten in Washington, DC, and it’s not just the drinking water and Tuesday’s trash.
Donna Shalayla(sp)……….creepy critter
Yikes! A grape press sounds even worse… after all they produce liquid. Vises usually don’t.
V. interesting idea. I would love, love to see the left peel off more moderate Republicans under the let’s do what’s right for the country and transparency umbrella. In my meta world that would leave the repubs as a fringe party, the dems more of a centrist moderate party and the lefty dems as the other major party. Pull the whole country left and make the US a center-left country. That’s how we live in reality anyway, it’s just these old bozos in their comfy Congressional seats that don’t get the shift, IMO.
ugh forgot about Harwood toady
Squandering reminds me of how W squandered all the world’s empathy for the U.S. in one short year.
Why is Shalala creepy? Asking in all innocence.
You made the better half chuckle…! Best of luck on your results…! *g*
We sometimes fail to see the real nature of things when all appears to be well. Our awareness becomes more acute when they are not. It is an awakening of the spirit, a sort of kundalini, if you will.
This isn’t a dictatorship. Quite the opposite.
The bully pulpit, which so many around here seem to think can move mountains, cannot pass legislation. Thanks for bringing up how things were just a year ago, since they’re remarkably better today largely from the efforts of President Barack Hussein Obama. In fact, he’s exceeded this radical Liberal’s expectations of what could be done given the incredible cesspool he walked into.
PBS…great La Boheme now
It took W far less than a year to squander all the world’s empathy for the U.S. Give the guy some credit.
Nice save.
Benefit of the doubt, dontcha know.
personal story…someone she granted millions to…long story
That’s a nice little run-down of all the things that Norquist did that civil libertarians might support. Here’s a little more info on Grover, from his Wikipedia article:
But he stuck his signature on an anti-CAPPS letter, so hey, groovy.
This will end about as well as the Ned Lamont campaign.
I agree this monstrocity of a health care bill that is nothing more then a gift to the insurance companies should, and must be killed.
That being said Ms. Hamsher I admire you and support you on almost everything but by joining with Grover Norquist and Mr. Barr you are bestowing upon them a veneer of legitmacy that they do not deserve.
Mr. Norquist and Mr. Barr are vile pieces of political trash whose existence is a insult to humanity.
There careful tiptoeing along the lines of calling for treason, violence and indecentcy, just the side off legality, puts them beyond the pale of intelligent and reasonable debate.
Remember Mr. Norquist’s analogy that bipartisanship is akin to date rape.
Nor let us forget Mr. Barr’s active subversion of the government during the Clinton years culminating in the bogus impaechment proceeding of which he was a manager.
I recognize that, like a broken clock is right twice a day, that on occassional issues these two can appear to be sane. But alas that is more of a coincedence then a reality.
I fear that your association with them will come back to haunt you. This I find worrisome since you are a strong voice for decentcy and reason, everything Mr. Norquist and Mr. Barr stand against.
You are an independent voice. Your opinions, like your choice of associates, are yours alone to make.
I fear in this case you have erred.
Keep slogging! ‘Tis the season to slog on. Personally I love the outbreak of real democracy in this country and would defend to my last breath the rights of people I disagree with (teabaggers, etc) to hit the streets and vent.
Also I really believe that w/o the internet the US might not even be a majority rule country anymore. We are on the right side of free speech. So I’m far less dispirited now than I was during the Bush/Cheney years. Thus my issues w/Jane on Fox and writing w/Grover. I hope more comes out of it that right wing talking points.
I have to have an image or an ideal like that in mind, no matter whether it’s practical or not. It keeps me engaged. When the current picture become obsolete, the tough part is finding a new one.
I think that Jane has done that by making common cause with Norquist, a man I have always loved to hate. Yet… there is a lot of interesting suspense and drama in this. Who knows how it will turn out? What if… Norquist relented a little bit in his desire to shrink the government small enough to drown it? It could happen.
Limp dick. The male equivalent of the mammogram wouldn’t hurt O at all.
So do progressives want to become so ideologically hidebound that we throw elections based on ideological purity tests rather than advance a progressive agenda? People who thought Beltway politics was going to involve working consistently with people in white hats while people in black hats shook their fists in impotent fury need to go back to watching Westerns and let the grownups get on with assembling winning coalitions.
even mine for my own country,amazing that……and now ive drawn the curtain back,on all the sordid story
From Wikipedia: Norquist has been noted for his widely quoted quip: “I don’t want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub.” Norquist favors the elimination of numerous federal organizations including the Internal Revenue Service, the Food and Drug Administration, Education Department and the National Endowment for the Arts.
Thank You Jane!
The biggest insult to progressives should be how the Dems Leadership in DC view the base of their party. The MORONS in DC that call themselves DEMS are completely clueLess.
Hello, who goes and watches Michael Moore Movies? Progressives
Who reads books written by Naomi Kline ie Shock Docrine? Progressives
Who watched this movie for eight years with Bush and hated it? Progressives
This fantasy about the USA health care system collasping is laughable!
USA Insurance companies will never go broke. Why if you get sick they will drop your Insurance Coverage. They can’t go broke.
This is all about transferring trillions of dollars from the middle class to the rich.
How, everyone knows this Bill is a SHAM?
Bernie Sanders tells the world on MSNBC Insurance companies are laughing all the way to the bank. (our kids amd grand kids will view the Bernie Sanders clip for years, and ask how DUMB was MOM and DAD?)
Dems just don’t do Shock Docrine Well.
Our kid and grand kids will laugh at Obama, Rahm, and the Dems in Congress in 2009 for a long time. This is clearly the gang that can not shoot straight.
The OWNERSHIP class has got to be disappointed with these Dems, because they know this is going to end badly!
Well, I wouldn’t be surprised. Most of my heroes have turned out to have feet of clay. Not that Shalala was ever a hero. But she was a pioneer, whose public image hasn’t been tarnished yet, unlike Clarence Thomas or Colin Powell or Condi Rice (well maybe not yet for the last two).
If you will remember, Lamont actually won the primary.
Had Connecticut had the foresignt to pass a “sore losers” law, then Lieberman would already be history now, instead of in 2012.
Obama’s getting a penogram?
Yeah well the sun could rise in the west too, but it would probably be the end of the world, even if it was cool to watch.
Grover should be in jail next to Abramoff and I think there are others on the right that could be joined that would be less revolting than that guy.
Still I’m arguing w/myself here, just pretty gross to see someone I generally admire (Jane) in league with someone I despise (Grover). Her cause is to defeat and then dramatically improve the health care bill. His cause is to bring down Dems and return the country to the right wing crazies. Common cause? Maybe but v. hard to envision.
This is called selling the con. But more, blowback like this and as witnessed by the influx of Democratic concern trolls here in recent days, is an indication that the Democrats are seriously spooked by what is going on. People are not acting in the ways they expected. They made their calculations on the basis of isolating progressives and essentially dismissing them. I am not sure how much I favor this entente with the right, but it is a way for progressives to get out of the box that Democrats put them in. Additionally, Democrats were planning on blaming progressives for any problems. They were going to do this regardless of whether we came out on the record against their bill. They figured who would know? But by making common cause with the right, the right will know now where we stand. We may not agree on much but now it will be considerably more difficult for the Democrats to sell the “It’s the progressives’ fault” line. Interesting politics.
One can only hope. *g*
yup…corruption………..so tantalizing,thats why i love critters..
???
Naomi has been preaching that fact for some time now…! ;-)
I wonder if he still feels that strongly about the size of government?
Mightn’t he now see the benefit of oversight on Wall Street, as well as at the Fed, and perhaps even the benefit of publicly financed campaigns.
I’ll admit that I didn’t understand what Jane was doing at first.
Putting that aside, why do so many people insist on making Norquist or Barr the issue? They’re not the issue. Get some perspective.
Keep up the good work, Jane! I think you’re doing a fantastic job and should be commended! You are one courageous human being! Thank you
Jane Hamsher is a freak’n hero. The left/right thing is fine for all your more gov./less gov. and people are basically good/people are basically creeps arguments. But what’s happening is we have a two party system that has been totally co-opted by big corporate interests and that is a system that red America and blue America can converge on as the United States of America to combat (thanks Barack).
And furthermore, Barack Obama lied to us. He campaigned as a change-based progressive and he turned out to be a somewhat more eloquent version of George W. Bush. It is hard to point to anything Obama has done that Bush wouldn’t have done.
Jane has my admiration and support for what she is doing. The Senate health reform bill is about permanently entrenching the evil health insurance companies. It should be stopped. “Oh, but it’ll save thousands of lives” – there are cheaper and much less evil ways to save thousands of lives than this.
Yep. It will or will not work, but it could be a game changer.
It’s kind of funny when folks insist the message must be shit because they believe one of the messengers is shit.
If Grover Norquist were to say that he’s against murder, rape, pillaging and looting, would these same folks decry these positions just because Grover said them?
Far too many folks are missing the forest for the tree because they’re focusing on the co-messenger, and not on the message.
does anybody have any norquist quotes or activities that are recent?
Jane, I love ya, love ya, love ya. You are doing the right thing – putting principles first, and the wise thing, using your political ‘smarts’ to gather support for those principles. Started reading yesterday’s thread you wrote, but haven’t got through all the comments and watched the vid yet, but I will.
Where are all those “concerned” citizens in tonight’s thread? For people like Tom at comment 1, for being 65, he doesn’t seem to have accumulatead any wisdom in all those years.
Keep doing what you’re doing, we’re behind you 110%. Love ya.
is an indication that the Democrats are seriously spooked by what is going on. People are not acting in the ways they expected. They made their calculations on the basis of isolating progressives and essentially dismissing them.
…
ayup
hehehehehehe
All true…
and I’m not really convinced that the (current) bill would save more lives than it would ruin.
ditto!
What do you have against pillaging and looting? Apologize to corporate America right now.
the BILL is an embarrassment….imo
Not sure the mods will let me explain, but the anotomical reference I was going for (stretched to be sure) is that O’s “leadership” style is limp dick, in which case it wouldn’t bother him a bit if his were squeezed between two xray plates. If you still don’t understand, you should ask the person you know who has recently had a mammogram.
Wow. I cannot believe how well you NAILED IT Jane. This is it period, exclamation point!
Listen up America! You either TAKE YOUR COUNTRY BACK NOW or die serving these blatant, bought off monsters. Good God almighty!! If you cant see the forest for the trees, then YOUR REFUSING TO LOOK! FDL lays it ALL out – there’s links all over the place! If you choose not to, then you’re more blind than I ever imagined.
Go get ‘em Jane! As I’ve blogged here recently I think this is the way to go now. They are NOT expecting this and I love it! Look how it freaks out the establishment types: a sure sign of success.
A way to think of the left-right strategic alliance I’d suggest is from John Rawls’s idea of an ‘overlapping consensus’. It’s like those intersecting Venn diagrams where there’s a shaded area of shared interest. It does NOT mean there is a search for some common overarching ideology that ‘unites’ libertarians and progressives. It does NOT mean that one needs to compromise one’s core principles. One can be VERY sure who one is this way, in fact much MORE sure than within the corporate sinkhole that is Obama and the Dems. The Dems and their nihilistic neoliberalism are the real threat to progressive values.
The shared interest is the corporate-government entity that has grown together into such a tangled monster that at the present moment it is a target for both libertarians and (real) progressives. We should be wary of the libertarians and they should be wary of us. But so what? Wariness is a virtue in politics. Anyone foolish enough to support Obama in the last election–like I did–should recognize that at this point!
Norquist has been foaming at the mouth since Shrub started expanding govt. He loved he tax cuts but hated the spending. Hasn’t gotten much press but he’s still makin’ a living doin’ his thing.
Apparently Jane Hamsher has decided that a healthcare bill that
providesbilks a trillion dollars worth ofbenefittax money from low and middle income workers is so odious that mere opposition isn’t enough.Sorry, but I had to fix it.
If one dares…! ;-)
V. funny! A time honored tradition, pillaging and looting. Think back over the last decade, or two, how insurance companies have transferred the cost of health care and pensions (remember defined benefit pensions, as opposed to all-the-risk-on-you 401k’s?) to workers and then jack the cost of same through the roof?
They wouldn’t have treated corporations that way, but average workers, hey, they’ve got no power to push back so pile on! Bleed them and pump up those profits.
Per NYT
Bwaaahahaha.
What are you talking about? It’s not progressives who are throwing the next election, it’s the unprincipled bastards in congress who refuse to do what they’ve claimed for what – 8 years? – they would do if they ever got a majority. Now that they have it, they’ve conveniently ‘misremembered’ those principles, and the reason hundreds of thousands canvassed and phone banked, and millions of young people turned out in 2008.
Cut the bullshit and open your eyes!!
Incredible pic, the energy jumps off the page, even without knowin Molly and Donna are in there . . .
That’s some live wire energy . . . thanks for sharing that.
Jane:
Yesterday I was explaining to some folks what you did with this action. I said that your are on the side of the people and not the corporations.
It is really hard to fight the corporations. It would be swell if the politicians were on our side and not the side of the insurance companies.
Also, as an aside…
a few weeks ago, I reposted here something from May that I had posted at another site about Mercury Retrograde… which is happening right now. I know there is lot of skepticism about astrology, but Mercury’s retrograde is almost mainstream. And I updated the post with some thoughts about the current retrograde phase.
If Obama and the Senate continue to insist on having their way, i.e., pushing this bill through before Christmas, the the senate will pass this bill and Obama will sign it while the retrograde is still in effect (til later in January)… meaning, unforseen consequences and results, the likelihood of having to revisit something to do it over again, or even worse, having to pay dearly for such rashness.
And rashness is a word I would not hesitate to use to describe the process that went into “writing” (selling/buying?!) this bill.
Laugh if you will, but when you consider how “lucky” Reagan was, just remember that he had an astrologer doing yeoman’s work of calculations for him and Nancy. Before you could do that sort of thing on a computer.
ROFLMAO !!
OT but I’ve had a long day and misread your ‘misremembered’ as ‘mismembered’ and following the thread of dicks in the mammo machine I laughed my ass off. Just wanted to thank you for giving me an accidental LMAO.
Well said!
Apparently Kevin Drum and his fellow accomodationists have decided that it’s better to go to bed with someone like Bart Stupak than it is to go out for an occasional drink with someone like Grover Norquist, just because Stupak has that magical “D” next to his name that’s supposed to make us forget what a horrible person he is. Apparently Kevin Drum is a hack.
The Grey Lady can also be right twice a day…! ;-)
How dare you attack the power structure from within. Ouch! It hurts so much. They could have made you sooooo comfortable! Historically when a woman attacks the power structure, or calls it on it’s own hypocrisy, she gets attacked mercilessly. Watch what happens. How evolved have we become? Really? Just watch.
And now we return you to another missile strike on poor civilians.
I have a 401k, a 401a, and a Roth IRA and actually made money last year, but that’s just because I refuse to let Wall Street asshole traders profit off me. Beat them at their own bullshit game.
On the other hand, my mother thinks that a 401k earns interest, like a bank account…
Probably coming to a TV Reality Show soon now that we’ve given them the idea. *g*
I was innocently rambling through my collection of guitar tabs, when I found myself singing lyrics I only barely understood at first…
“Five year plans and New Deals, wrapped in golden chains
And I wonder, still I wonder, who’ll stop the rain…”
Golden chains, indeed. You know what that rain is? It’s “trickle-down economics” — i.e. the rich peeing on you. It seems that Congress only ever gets anything done these days by tangentially handing billions out to this industry or that, such that your money and mine ends up in a tiny number of very well-dressed pockets. (History was my worst subject. What is the difference, exactly, between the nobility of the 14th Century and the de facto nobility of today?)
I want the money back that I donated to Obama’s campaign. And you know what? I never *did* get my Obama/Biden t-shirt. (I still kinda like Biden, though.)
Any time. Funny you should bring that up, people I know say I tend to mumble sometimes, and they think they hear me say something funny. I’ll take the credit anyway!
Kevin Drum is a well-known centrist. He’s been madly in love with Richard Cohen for years.
Thanks to you. Was one of my lifetime highlights.
Thanks to you both! It took both comments for me to finally click on the link.
Made my day!
Jane’s principles are consistent and good, so I say “go get ‘em.” Fighting hard for political goals often brings strange alliances along the way. As long as Rahm Emanuel is moved out of the way of me getting health insurance I can afford and not lose to greedheads in the private insurance industry, I’m OK with this effort.
And, BTW, extra-Constitutional snooping by Government agencies (in my opinion) and fiscal responsibility without official malfeasance is good by me as well. And I, too, will join with anyone willing to call that stuff out in public.
fukstix!!! bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
and Happy Holidays to ya
Oh, come on. If wimmen gotta do it, you guys gotta ask about it.
I’ve said this before, but I’ll repeat it.
Pres. Obama stood before history, and the future, with one hand on the things that would have linked him to Bhudda, Ghandi, Jesus, FDR, Rosa Parks, Cesar Chavez, MLK, JFK, etc.
And he squandered it early on and still does.
A place on one of the BIGGEST pedestals of human and humane history, wasted, and tossed instead to the corporate oligarchy.
And in doing so, ensured himself a one term presidency, and the self destruction of the democrat party Dr. Dean helped to revive.
I still can’t fathom it was for the money, and a cush lobby job after one term, I just can’t fathom it.
He threw history away, a legacy of perhaps, THE greatest Presidency ever . . . he threw it all away.
Boggles me, and I just can’t figure it out. He was
Congratulations! What worries me about this is people have literally laid down and accepted the massive transfer of wealth from the middle class and below to the uppers and above.
If wishes were horses, we’d all feast on tasty, tasty horseflesh this Christmas.
Jane, I admire you tremendously for working earnestly to improve our country. I guess I’m lucky in that my psychoses don’t prevent me from admiring you. Please don’t be dissuaded by those whose imbalances cause them to sneer at your efforts. Believe me, I’m as contemptuous of Grover Norquist as the next person. But you’ve done too much for me and many others for me to assume the worst. These kids today! Happy Solstice and Enjoyable December 23rd!
Niiice.
Uh, just in case and maybe not my biz but, a caution not to out and name any Pups in pictures unless they SAY it’s ok? I mean, that’s how I would feel . . . . Sorry if I’m ahead or full of myself . . . no knock on you or your interest, it’s an INCREDIBLE picture . . .
I am done with this site. Jane Hamsher is a fake activist who has sold out completely to the headiness of being in a media spotlight.
I was wondering where the next Larry Johnson of noquarterusa.net was coming from. Now we know: It’s Jane Hamsher of firedoglake.com.
That must mean you speak rarely, but when you do it’s worth hearing – and funny!
Drum iirc was an IRAQ WAR apologist too
eww. Wild horses…could drag you away.
Still OT-ish
(still sorry, Jane)
Catching the repeat of Countdown tonight. I am sick to death of Ezra Klein. He could not have his head further up the President’s backside tonight. Lawrence O’Donnell couldn’t find a single credible HC commentator that isn’t 1) wet behind the ears and 2) obviously carrying RahmBama’s water?
Feh. Faugh, even!
FWDiva
This is very good news and another courageous call by you, Jane. Nothing scares an oligarchy more than people reaching across the political divide to call them on their corruption and greed.
Kevin Drummed
weak mental attitude…weak!!imo
I didn’t know much about you or FDL before this week. Heh, now I do. I agree with an earlier poster that you’ve certainly got some folks’ attention. Bravo, Jane. I, and a growing number of people I know and work with, want principles before parties or personalities. Keep up the good fight — there are a bunch of us here with you.
Nor is Rahm Emanuel.
Just a note. This thread is a lot more civil than the earlier (737 comments) thread on the same subject. Sayonara trolls.
I just got one of your canned calls doing the push poll to kill HCR. I’m beyond furious; you’re using the same dishonest tactics the GOP does in its push polls. Christ almighty, you learned Norquistian methods pretty damn quick, didn’t you?
You and your simpering groupies are blithering idiots who learned nothing from the debacle of 1980 and 2000. I cannot believe I wasted my hard-earned money subscribing to your site, and boy am I glad I canceled before I got that thoroughly debased phone call because I’d hate to think that’s where my money was going.
Never again, dammit. Never another cent for you or any of your fave raves. I’m done with “progressives” with their freaking flat learning curves.
No, please don’t go, please! We need your concern trolling to keep us in line.
I don’t buy the puppetmaster framing. I believe Rahm is a symptom of the trouble with Obama, not the cause.
Which is not to say I wouldn’t like to see him receive justice.
“A bill without a public option is not change we can believe in.”
* Barack Obama, during the 2008 campaign
Heard it all day… give it a rest. If you’re done get the hell out of here already.
Hi firepups, just a driveby, up to my ears in cookie dough.
This is great! Good Lard, Jane, I totally understood you last year with the “pivot and attack” thing, but you a firing cruise missiles! Weee!
I can’t wait to see who’s hair you light on fire next. I am just SURE you have another salvo ready.
To his credit, O’Donnell gave Klein airtime but got rid of him asap.
It’s funny how we cling to the notion that it would take a lot to erase the middle class from existence. It occurred to me recently that, for 99% of the history of humanity, there was no middle class at all; on average, the population has been a mass of ignorant, filthy, brutish peasantry. It’s amazing that the Enlightenment was able to produce as many stable pockets of “middle-classery” as it was. But there are many factors that can contribute to the collapse of such pockets, as we are seeing throughout our fine nation.
Personally, I’m greatly pessimistic about homo sapiens. Evidence suggests we will as a species — or at least as a country — undergo the equivalent of accidentally choking to death during auto-erotic asphyxiation. Phooey.
Objective facts just don’t have any weight with some people.
Creationists are like that too. More generally, religious fundies are ALL like that.
Facts are like water on a duck to such people.
EXACTLY…..cant believe i left LaBoheme for 4 minutes…nonutz Ezra
Thanks.
Watch that doorknob now!
If we can’t get people to pay attention to torture and murder, why would this get notice? The US “Legal System” has long been little more that Kabuki for years.
Please see my comment at 178.
Sometime you need to make good on your threat. Otherwise we won’t take you seriously. /s
And YOU are apparently failing to grasp the real problem, which is not a lack of Congressional principles, but a Congress completely corrupted by money. The Congress is almost completely bought, and those who are not completely bought are rendered powerless by those around them who are. See also: Sanders, Bernie.
I’ve said and said again that the FIRST thing we ought to have done, the first thing Obama ought to have done, was pushed for Campaign Finance Reform, and made bribing Congress illegal again. Failing that, nothing of consequence shall survive Congress unless it serves the corporations: the case in point will be voted on tomorrow morning.
In such a toxic environment, the divisions aren’t Republican and Democrat anymore. We’re going to need to reach out to all SORTS of people who we sometimes oppose.
This is real live politics, kids. In real live politics you take your allies where you can, and you do indeed sacrifice purity on the altar of expedience. That’s why it’s called politics and not kindergarten. If you want to remain pure, join a convent.
I don’t agree with Jane on this issue, but I’ll oppose her policy choices, and not oppose her merely because she fails to meet some kind of ideological litmus test, such as Never Go On Fox, or Never Sign Anything With Grover Norquist. I despise Grover Norquist like any rational person. But while I oppose Jane’s goal here, both she and I believe that there are things that need to be done that cannot be sacrificed because we’re too self-righteous to build working coalitions.
bye chump
Sorry eCAHN, one of them is back.
I was surprised that romo2austin only appeared once in that thread. He hijacked an earlier thread. A search of dkos reveals that he is a frequent commenter there and occasional (dkos) diarist under the same name. Evidently finds insulting FDL from afar unsatisfying and decided to come over and do it in person.
A big issue for the Dems is going to be the denouement of Fannie and Freddie. We will wear that regardless of how complicit the Repubs were in the whole scam. Best to get out in front of it, even if Rahm gets ground up in the process. I’ve no issue with calling him out. Seeking his or any other persons resignation has to be rooted in wrong doing though, not just a policy disagreement or a dislike of all the conservative Dems he recruited to yank the house back to Dems in ’06.
And Grover, gah! He is not on our side and isn’t going to change. He will use the left given the opportunity though, and that’s my concern.
I’m not sure about the charge against Emanuel, but Grover Norquist is about the sleeziest slime ball I have ever seen in Washington.
I would never buy a used car from Norquist – or buy anything he says. He strikes me as one with evil, concealed motives for all he says and does.
But only the “right” sort of progressive folks are allowed to co-sign letters with conservatives, not dirty gatecrashing hippies like you, Jane!
he is a little Rhambut in the making
I wonder what the “Progressive” Caucus is thinking right about now.
Jane Hamsher~ FEARLESS!
You are showing the progressive community how, and what it takes, to be reckoned with AND with the goal ( the endgame ) clearly articulated which speaks clearly and forcefully to progressive values:transparency in government, affordable healthcare for all, respect for the Constitution on issue after issue.
You go girl!
Oil Guy at DKos is going berserk. Today must be setting a record for exaggeratin’ and pearl clutching. Of course, we always welcome refugees from the Great Orange Satan.
Jane and her nihilism has hurt his feelings. Actually, I would call her Gonzo, rather than nihilist. I myself, am one of the conspiracy loving supportes who flock. Heck, there are too many conspiracies, but focusing or Rahm Emmanuel’s conspiracies certainly is bringing out the trolls.
The narrative about “facilitatin” Republicans is also funny. Who has done more facilitatin’ with the R’s than Rahm? But it is Rahm who has made a career of stabbing D’s in the back. Rahm also stabbed health care with his secret PhRMA deals.
Man, this thread is moving fast tonight. Looks like maybe it’s troll-time – what, do they have some kind of un9iversal alarm clock or somethin’ to wake them up?
What kinda cookies? I’m done. I bought 4 pounds of butter and ended up with only 2/3 pound left. Geez, talk about artery clogging. But as the cookies are gifts, it’s not my arteries.
Be preferable if you did not link directly to that sort of drek.
Rham and him were TWINS separated at birth
Listen, if you’re going to start calling out Bernie Sanders for not being progressive enough while at the same time joining hands with Jack Abramoff buddy and general slimeball Grover Norquist, it’s time for you to refer to the sad story of Larry Johnson.
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
There really is wisdom to that. Same as with “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” (until the common enemy is vanquished, then you are free to go back to butting heads).
Have none of you considered the possibility that Ms. Hamsher is using Barr and Norquist, and not the other way around? Are you *that* convinced of her cupidity and/or naivety? For shame! For frippery!
Doin’ my best. May not be good enuf.
And being considered a Serious Person (meaning: he was wrong on Iraq, which is the prime qualification for being a Serious Person among the Villagers that dictate our media).
Well put. Cheers.
paid by the various think tanks imo
“Jane Hamsher is a fake activist who has sold out completely to the headiness of being in a media spotlight.”
Media spotlight? I am seeing cursory mentions and “lets move right along” Sarah Palin tie-ins. As far as spotlight-grabbing goes, Jane could have done much better if that was her intent.
Then why do the ACLU, PFAW and CAF have no trouble working with him?
Why is it only when Jane steps forward to work with him — and only on this — do some folks suddenly go into well-orchestrated fainting spells?
Perhaps someone could offer him some cheese to go with that whine. Or call him a whammmmbulance… Geez!
I’m not a flocker. But I do love roiling the waters.
Is it the same thing when you work with Grover Norquist because you both oppose something for the same reasons as when you both oppose something for very different reasons?
When you fight increased gov’t surveillance together because you both believe that it is bad I think that’s one thing. When you join him in fighting the current bill when he wants to stop health care reform altogether that’s something entirely else.
Oppose it, point out its flaws and generally raise hell. I think that’s great. But don’t for a moment think that you aren’t handing the worst anti-reformists a victory when you make common cause with folks who only want us to fail abjectly and go on Fox to do so.
With the usual caveats that I am entirely certain of your good intentions I have some serious reservations about what you are doing.
Sanders’ problem is the same as Feingold’s and Franken’s and all the other so-called “progressives”. They DO have mega-pull and mega-power. All they have to do is say “no” to cloture. Ta-da! Then they have every bit as much power as Nelson and Lieberman are falsely awarded.
There is no magic involved. All it takes is standing up for principals…but they have none.
All THEY do is vote “yes” on cloture, KNOWING that that vote guarantees a pass (on the nominee or bill in question) and THEN vote “no” on the floor vote, all the while knowing that their pathetic NO still means the bill will pass.
The CLOTURE vote is the vote that matters. THAT is where the power comes from. They refuse to EVER stand up for what they supposedly believe. EVER.
I wonder what the WH is thinking right. The lights may stay on until the wee hours.
its fun.sort of…….g
oy MImi looks terrible
To quote another:
“I’m glad I don’t live in a universe where Grover is a friend and Bernie is an enemy.”
You have jumped the shark Jane. You need to sit this one out awhile and gather your bearings.
1) How can you be done with this site if you’ve never posted here before (at least, not that I can recall)?
2) Are you also done with the ACLU, PFAW and CAF?
Frank, what MOST annoys me about his comment you quoted was he used the wrong to, to.
If folks can’t figure out too an to, or their and there, I just can’t hold them legit in any form.
It’s the BASIC of the english language to write and know about these things.
Alas . . . . ;-)
Where were you when the ACLU, PFAW and CAF were working with Norquist?
Man, that hot poker he sat on went right up his ass…
Of course it is good enough, and then some. ;)
Time.
Should push back happen?
Yes.
Will it have an impact?
How would you know if you don’t try.
More of this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7TI-AJi2O8
you tease…….whatdja make?
Then we can count on you to NEVER donate to the ACLU, PFAW, or CAF henceforth right? You will picket them from now on because they have had the gall to co-sign letters with Norquist.
The why is easy. Most people are not really thinking about the broader picture.. they are only thinking about themselves and how they must WIN against the Republicans just like the neocons must WIN the war in Iraq…
They demonize people from the right like Norquist and completely ignore that he and others have SOME good points. They are just like the bushies, but with all the ideology words flipped… nazis instead of commies… etc.
Not new and, if I may be so bold, also probably not “friends.”
piss off
Mod note: Now be nice.
Gee, I always thought that the positions that people took were more important than what they billed themselves as being. Silly me.
707!
Fainting spells? More like full blown bouncin’ off the wall adrenalin rushes.
Actually we did learn. It is the sellout Democrats who apparently didn’t.
Ah, another “longtime reader” whose login name I don’t recall seeing around here. I’d heard there was an influx of folks trying that schtick lately!
Funny how they weren’t outraged when the ACLU, PFAW and CAF work with conservatives. Or when Obama appoints them to the boards of liberal legal groups.
Oh good, you’re back!
To all concerned, romo2austin is a regular commenter and occasional diarist at DKos. Standard fare is that Jane and FDLers are teabaggers. Other well reasoned comments turned up by a search of DKos include “Jon Walker couldn’t hold Krugman’s Jock strap”
Loser.
Well, I try to be as obstreperous as possible. I’m guessing you noticed. *g*
Yeah, the part of my comment that mentioned congresscritters having principles was really a joke. What I left unsaid was, their principles are a falsehood, for 95% of them are bought and sold by the corporations. That’s been said here countless times here at FDL, if you visit here you’d know it, didn’t think I’d have to state the obvious.
Molly also said, “Get the goddamn thing done.”
I’m in favor of the bill passing, whatever it looks like. B/c I like the Medicaid expansion and the Community Health Center funding (thanks Bernie Sanders for putting the country first) and the Wyden Amendment (b/c LOADS of people will take their voucher and buy the non-profit exchange offering, I think). So that’s where I’m at.
I read the other day (on the internet, so it must be true) of a lady who’s husband got a new job that moved him from minimum wage to about $13.50/hour. This nearly doubles his salary. She’s worried about this b/c they have a sick child and might lose their access to Medicaid.
What a head-snapper. This family should be really happy about his new job but can’t even celebrate the extra money since it could cost them in the long run for health care for their kid.
That is fucked up shit right there.
I beg to differ… RF… He is the CoS, the one coordinating POTUS’s daily schedule…!
Leadership is about doing what is right even if its not politically favorable.
I may be naive… but I believe if you lead out of conviction… eventually they will follow.
Otherwise, you live the life of the protagonist in Robert Penn Warren’s novel “All the Kings Men.”
oh poor Mimis gonna die again
Are you saying you agree with the positions of Grover Norquist? LOL!
Hijacked a Marta Evry thread earlier, with the aid of some folks with good intentions but low impulse control.
Fruit cake. Pumpkin spice bread. Brownies. Choc chip cookies. Pecan sandies. Lemon shortbread. Peanut butter cookies. Maybe one or two others. You?
Yes, thank you! Argue in a grammatically correct and properly spelled way people, please! It’s distracting otherwise and takes away from worthy points.
CiC still trumps CoS, unless I’m mistaken.
Absolutely: when they address government spying on Americans, the PATRIOT Act, sneak-and-peek warrants, no-knock warrants, and assorted other related civil liberties issues.
Jack BURDEN
You’re back? Got any Paul Krugman quotes?
I’m having trouble keeping up with the comments. It is important to realize that Fannie and Freddie now represent something like 80% of the current home market. So in essence they are the market. And anything that happens to them is equivalent to saying this is what is happening to the US home market.
Only in the best possible way. Unruly you are not.
He also said he wants to drown government in a bathtub. But hey, whatever floats your boat.
fudge,white choc moose tracks,gingerbread tomorrow
I know this is futile but please don’t feed. Hijacking threads is their raison d’etre. They can’t do it without your help.
“Frank, what MOST annoys me about his comment you quoted was he used the wrong to, to.”
Lord shoot me now . . . I SWEAR I meant to type too, also, there, at the end . . . sigh.
“COCKTAILS, PLEASE!”
;-)
I can’t understand why the Kossacks are freaking out over working with leaders on the right in opposing the corporate takeover of government. Talk about having a purity fetish. I personally loathe Grover Norquist but I would be glad to amplify my voice by allowing him to co-sign a letter demanding an investigation of Rahm Emmanuel. Our politics is a sewer. Now it not the time to be squemish.
You go, Jane.
Sorry! Just think he’s harmless. Maybe if he actually read a set of Jon’s posts, or David’s, or Jane’s he’d, well, have a clue.
Ok. ok. stop feeding the troll…
I’m not hijacking anything. Most if not all of my comments are relevant to the topic of discussion
tru dat ratty
On some things. I’ve always been for alliances on common issues on a case by case basis. For example, without the anti-war left combining with the anti-war right (i.e.libertarians), there is no anti-war movement. I remain neutral wrt Norquist because I have no idea how it will turn out, but am not against the effort, as nothing else seems to be working.
Just like a bad penny.
I would never do that Larue. In fact, I didn’t supply the photo or ID anyone. ECAHNamics provided the link. I’m not even sure who she was in the photo… only where Molly Ivins was.
I’ve had to trim back my own online identity enough (due to trolls) that I would never just ID anyone.
Hope this helps.
getitdone!!!!!!!!!!!!
What, and you think Jane now favors these things Grover does because they signed a (second) letter together?!? Why can’t people pay attention, read carefully, and think for themselves? This histrionic screeching about legitimizing Grover Norquist is absurd.
You do realize that Grover Norquist is one of the members in very good standing of the conservative establishment? And that for decades, officeholders have attended his weekly breakfasts to strategize? How could a half-decade of blogging and a coupla hit movies on her resume possibly enable Jane to lend legitimacy to Grover Norquist?
He has legitimacy in abundance.
A disgrace to a lovely progressive arts town like Austin . . .
Besides we heard all this crap earlier today on the other thread.
For those that have not noticed… Ron Paul and those that support him have had quite an impact by attacking the GOP… now the Republicans (and many independants following along as always) are trying to mimic the Ron Paul people instead of the GOP… they dont quite have it down yet.. because they only did it half way and turned into TeaBaggers… but they are starting to learn more and more what Ron Paul is saying… maybe someday they will even proudly denounce unnecessary wars like Ron Paul.
The moral of this story? Partisan attacks on the other side CHANGE NOTHING. It is childish and makes you look stupid whether you have a D or an R as your party choice… BUT attacking your own party for being corrupt? That changes things. It makes the other side have a little more respect for you (which can help make them listen to your ideas more) AND it makes your own party look corrupt and unworthy of the office they hold… which puts pressure on them… just like with the Republicans in Congress they will at first only give lip service… BUT that makes more of the regular PEOPLE from your party think that maybe the rebel rousers are on the right track because the leaders are starting to say the same things… but that builds until the “leaders” start seeing that more and more people are also demanding change from their party and that cycle feeds on itself…
I have no idea how far the Ron Paul people are going to be able to go in pulling the right to be more reasonable and Libertarian… But if the Ron Paul people can pull from their direction and the Progressives pull on the DNC from their direction… then MAYBE when they meet REAL CHANGE will occur… and once the corruption is finally cleaned up then people can go back to fighting over whether the federal government should be somewhat bigger or somewhat smaller… but ALWAYS with the people having an equal seat at the table with the corporations.
Sounds heavenly. I have a great gingerbread recipe but have never tried the other two.
A disgrace to sentient life everywhere.
Some people are really REALLY DIM. You really hate the ACLU don’t you? And the PFAW? You LIKE domestic warrantless spying, sneak-and-peek warrants, national security letters being used to track what you read at the library, etc. You MUST because, you know, Norquist is adamantly opposed to all those things too.
Oddly, so is the ACLU!
Holy shit! They, the ACLU is peopled with government bathtub drowning loons!
Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I’m being repressed!
Perlstein would disagree. *g*
What a sad, sad day it is when a purportedly progressive web site is dedicated to bringing down strong Democrats because they disagree on parts of their policies. Your vitriol and poor judgment on enemies and friends is profoundly disturbing. The only good thing is that your impact is so very limited.
President Obama is delivering more positive change on health care than has happened for 45 years. No, it’s not the bill I find ideal, but it is a huge, huge step forward. Yet Jane Hamsher is filled with anger and aligns herself with one of the very worst right wingers. I’ve met Grover and he is a truly awful, self-centered fellow, who cares nothing for his fellow beings. As long as taxes are low, it’s fine to see people dying for lack of health care. Yet he is to become a partner to go after the White House Chief of Staff.
Heh, if ya noticed, I screwed up my own rant . . . *sheepish*
A. Ron Paul is a Republican and works within the Republican establishment.
B. The Republicans just suffered one of their worst electoral defeats, and thus far your theory has very little in the way of facts to support your assumption that attacking your own party can lead to both ideological and electoral success.
I’m with you Jane. Let them learn to fear our reaction to their lies. I find it hard to hear Obama claim he did not run on the public option. He was even against the mandate to buy insurance. What happened?
I posted it. So it’s OK.
They both report to their overlords . . . no need to single either out, both complicit.
Well, Rahm has two overlords, AIPAC and the corporate oligarchy.
You’re right but, lordy, they are a lot of fun to bait. “g”
Alright, yes… Who’s telling him who he can see…?
so easy,ill email you the recipes
moose tracks,ya just melt white chocolate in double boiler and stir in peppermint stix (crumbled)
Difference is Grover said that and believes that; ACLU doesn’t. And there is a difference between economic liberties and civil liberties.
Hi Hugh – Yeah, I realize what a wiggly can of worms that is to open. The govt. is using the market power fairly well at present, I think, in particular allowing people to switch to renting rather than being foreclosed is a good way to keep people in their homes on the face of it. Of course, it also absconds w/their equity. Ah, the Gordian Knot!
I’m signing off now, hitting a party. Happy Christmas FDLers!
I thought Lawrence did a fine job with Young Ezra, and presumed he was chosen as a guest for the deer-in-the-headlights look halfway through the interview when he realized he wasn’t gonna get the typical Countdown/TRMS worship he gets from Keith and Rachel. Lawrence really roasted him.
Is their home mortgage business larger than their student loan divisions? Fannie, that is?
rahm is a corrupt piece of garbage and it shouldn’t matter what party he is from or who else believes it.
Z
No. Obama is delivering MEGA profits to his insurance company paymasters by using the government to muscle a captive audience. YOU WILL GIVE TO PRIVATE INSURANCE COMPANIES OR GO TO JAIL! You WILL pay for CEO bonuses! You WILL underwrite dividend checks to shareholders at Wellpoint and Aetna!
In return he gets even MORE mega “donations” (ie, PAYOLA) from insurance companies.
He also is fighting to help his man Rahm get richer by screwing the taxpayer via Fannie and Freddy.
Don’t get me started on Obama’s paymasters at Goldman-Sachs!
Wonder what would happen to it if they used those #$%^&*( cold plates, like they do so often on mammos.
She also emphasized how important it was to have fun while “freedom fightin’”.
??
unclear on the concept.
I just want to laugh now. I’ve been listening to the concern trolls all day and now I just want to laugh at them.
That is the question, isn’t it? These people start with a conclusion and reach for any nonsense in an effort to support it. They don’t think about what others are doing and why before shooting their mouths off.
Besides, as Jane pointed out much earlier in this thread, didn’t Obama want to end all the partisan fighting and find issues on which we have common ground?
Jane may not agree with Norquist on very many issues, but that shouldn’t stop her from working with him when possible in order to advance and achieve her goals.
So, what, they stop replying to you at Kos?
Oh spot on there Larue! If I didn’t have to go we could rant off on those affiliations all night. Still, alcohol calls… Goodnight all.
You do know Bernie Sanders has a vote in the United State Senate, right?
And yet…Jane hasn’t said she wants to drown the government in a bathtub either. NO ONE HERE HAS IDIOT!
Jane is evil for co-signing with Norquist on a COMMON problem but when the ACLU and a whole HOST of other Dems and “liberal” organizations do, it is Okidokie.
Explain you hypocrisy. NOW.
Karen, I truly apologize for even THINKING it, but by the time I went to delete or edit my comment, it was too late.
Please accept this apology . . . . I made a comment hastily that I needn’t have . . .
Time to climb into my tree. It’s been fun ladies, gentlemen and trolls.
Ignorance is a choice.
Be good to yourselves, and all other living things.
Namaste
Just like I said, they must have a universal alarm clock to bring them out. Come to think of it, I suppose it’s normal for the bat(shits) to come out at night.
That’s not good. (Someone probably should explain that score to the guys who think they’re running the government, because I think they’re looking at it all wrong.)
Definitely called for in that instance.
Must be one of those “long time readers” who thinks it costs money to become a firepup.
Hmmm. I have YET to see the charge show up on my bank statement and I’ve been here for YEARS.
That’s what I was doing @ 276 after one cried about some nonsense or other.
Boy, reading the comments section here the last couple of days has really educated me. Wanted to thank all of you very much.
For a long time I couldn’t understand for the life of me how George W. Bush’s approval ratings were even at 28%. I mean, WTF? How can even 28% approve? How can 8% approve?
But seeing the exact same thing with Obama’s supporters despite all the facts, well, I guess each side just has about a 25% “base” that’s gonna love ‘em even if they shit all over them and/or the Constitution.
Explains a lot, and wanted to thank all who’ve helped educate an old, fat, dumb ass. Thanks.
Preview is mah fren.
dont forget his baby brother
Pass the crackers, I got the cheese . . . ;-)
Merry Christmas, WK.
Ask yourself this… WHAT IF this very same bill was being pushed by Bush?
You see his smug face on TV telling everyone they WILL BUY insurance from the insurance companies or pay off the government or else the IRS will be sent to take care of you…
You MIGHT (I bet) decide that some of these things are good in the bull but you WILL NOT be told to buy this crap that doesnt pay off when you need to most just because of some facist agreement between Bush and the health insurance companies…
Quote of the day!
Remember how much we complained when the Republican moderates (when they still existed) mostly would not speak up to criticize Bush?
I agree that it earns points in respect, whether they are made public or not. Usually not.
You’re thinking of Sallie Mae for student loans maybe?
Oh, I thought that was rather sweet. Just waiting for another comment along those lines that starts with “Little lady….” or somesuch. So concerned for Jane’s well-being some of them are!
Since it has such a limited impact, I am surprised you bothered. But like a lot of the concern trolls recently you conflate progressives with Democrats. They are not the same thing. What is so odd is that you are less concerned about the Democrats selling out to the corporations to force millions of Americans to buy insurance that will be too expensive for them to use but much more concerned that progressives would join with conservatives to point that out.
Nite, SD…
Prolly cause the Labor Dept. produces it…! Ass-backwards is the norm…! ;-)
Then you have not been paying attention… have you EVER heard the GOP complain about the Federal Reserve before? Or talking about Freedom Freedom Freedom! Or about that god damn piece of paper the U.S. Constituion?
The debate within the Republicans has changed alot. On the election front there has been no real successes yet… that wont come until more of the idelogical change has occured… though Ron Paul’s son might win in Kentucky.
Shrinkage.
There is a common illness on both the left and the right. Epidemiologically, it does appear to affect ~25% of both populations.
You give Rahm too much credit. Obama chose him for CoS because they are simpatico. Peas in a pod. Partners in crime. Rahm doesn’t do anything that doesn’t meet with Barry’s approval.
Teddy, Take a look at my comment @ 72. I got the impression that you and Jane were enjoying watching me lose it the other night as I languished in confusion. Just an impression.
g’nite, SD
It’s all about reading comprehension… something that is not emphasized enough in our educational system, especially under NCLB.
In fact, I recall reading or hearing someone say that education is always about learning all over again how to read and write. It happens on so many levels. What you learn in 1st and 2nd grade is very different from the reading and writing you learn in middle school or high school or college, or even… later on in life.
I’m constantly amazed at how often people do not really comprehend what they have just read.
It’s gender-based criticism. Those other organizations that have partnered with Grover Norquist are headed by men.
“President Obama is delivering more positive change on health care than has happened for 45 years. ”
You REFUSE to acknowledge the legions of evidence in the Senate bill as it stands as a giveaway to corporate profiteering thru the taking of monies from the masses, with built in language to charge MORE for some than others, the means to make UNAFFORDABLE any care that’s subsidized by the government (waste, more waste) and the means to completely obviate coverage AND care, shuffling off the worst case care needs onto some useless and unaffordable exchange also owned and operated by private industry.
Amazing. And you call that positive change?
I don’t think what you think is change is what you think it means . . .
Sally does most of the student loan stuff. What Fannie and Freddie are holding is in the trillions.
ACLU is a non-partisan organization, whose sole purpose is protecting constitutional rights. They do not hold the numerous and far reaching policy positions that Jane Hamsher wades into on a daily basis. Whereas, if Grover Norquist holds similar views on constitutional rights as the ACLU then it is their prerogative to work with him, as they have no interest in any other political position he may hold as that is not the purpose of their organization.
You are basically comparing apples to oranges.
I am also looking in vain for those direct deposits from Mr Soros
I erred in haste, and should apologize to you, also. Too. *G*
No worries, Larue! I just didn’t want to let it go without explaining, and I hadn’t seen eCAHNomics’ response yet.
By the by… I completely agree with you about usage and grammar and such. And I am just as mortified when I do something like that in a comment (like yesterday). In a post, I have enough time to make corrections. In comments, not so much…
nite SD
The senate bill is a pile of crap. Rahm and Mr O are both very happy with it, but they won’t tell us what makes them so happy with it.
Emphasize “crime” in “Partners in crime”. They are all over that: the crime of hiding illegal government spying on Americans, the crime of hiding illegal torture and abuse by numerous government agencies and individuals, the crime of violating international laws and treaties (the supreme law of the land as per Article 6 of that pesky Constitution), the crime of hiding how they are handing OUR money over to cronies in banks and finance (in direct violation of federal laws that define the Fed AND covering up similar crimes from the Treasury). Many crimes committed, many crimes hidden.
Obstruction of Justice, Obama be thy name.
You’re giving Barry too much credit…! 8-P
*G*
Irresistible at times, I must confess. Too. Also.
No, I just didn’t have any answers for you. I felt like the Magic 8-Ball™ — “Ask Again Later!”
Why is it that Daily Kos people are trolling the FDL threads? Because the truth is here on this site. Go back to Kos, y’all… we’re organizing/debating and not interested in knee jerk reactions/personal attacks.
If you don’t agree with what is happening here, I doubt you will change any minds as most of the people here think for themselves and will make the decision to participate for themselves.
Perhaps it is OK to blogwhore so late in this thread by pointing out that if you click on my name, it should take you to my list of Bush scandals. 129 of them at the moment.
Um, you do know that insurance companies charge widely varying amounts NOW and the bill would reduce those disparities? Or not? And that there are limits to what they can charge under the bill based on the amount devoted to health care.
Now, I don’t like all of the bill – but in the real world, you know the one we actually live in, legislation reflects compromise. If that’s not ok with you, then you are not suited for politics in America. We have an institutional structure specifically designed to make things tough to keep things passed (and that’s even without the filibuster, which makes it even harder) and so compromise is necessary to get anything done.
I read (here I think) that a number of constituional lawyers had been consulted and concluded that the “mandate” was constitutional, because the government is allowed to “tax” for “the common good.”
What I’d like to know is how they call this giveaway to the insurance [sic] industry something that benefits “the common good?”
Only by torturing the language is that possible.
GREAT point
OT-Just heard a version of this on a streaming station I favor, just hit me as relevant to this thread and the other Great Thread Of Hamsher . .
You Don’t Know Me But You Don’t Like Me.
*G*
They don’t really need to tell us. Looking at the insurance company soaring stocks pretty much says it all. Mission accomplished.
Lesson: Learned. (Well, probably not.)
Bingo! It’s always about the balls or the ovaries, right?
Why thank you…! You’ve noticed…! *g*
GOOD! I’ll go look for that clip later . . . Ezra, how far his mighty has fallen since he signed on with a major neo con rag . . .
The so-called left who hitherto would not countenance criticism from progressives and who remain silent about the egregious transgressions of the current White House are not hesitant to hurl invective towards said progressive critics of the left.
Rahm is your boogy man, we get it. FDL met its shark and jumped it with this one. Phew.
It’s good to get a laugh.
My laugh of the day was finding out that HR has lost track of the expiration date on my contract. They think it expires July 1. My copy says Jan 1 ….
Shouldn’t get a DIME for any of those words . . . FAIL! *G*
(him, not you)
You DO know that the bill has NO cost controls right? Insurance companies are free to do WHATEVER their greedy bastard hearts desire when it comes to deductibles and copays. They are free to stick the sick and older Americans into obscenely high priced plans while sticking all the healthy young people who don’t even need it into cheaper (but STILL expensive!) plans. It’s free money for insurance companies baby!
just a very tiny one
Wait, wait, wait . . . are we talking bathtubs of gin? Like Gin Fizz? Ramus Fizz?
Cuz I MIGHT could be persuaded . . . just sayin . . .
I just caught holy hell in a comment thread at Balloon Juice for defending this reaching out to Grover Norquist. (Geez, I LOVE Balloon Juice…)
Jane, you’re on solid ground. Keep it up. The knee-jerk reactions to your outreach are symptomatic of the problem, obviously. Thank you for doing this.
Wonder what it looks like when it’s really cold. Well, no, I don’t, actually. Might require brain bleach.
And they wonder why we don’t like mammos ….
More of a minnow really. Or a plankton.
Funny, I sleep better knowin there’s dragons in the trees with one eye open as is their wont . . *G*
Oh, thank the gods, I finally caught up again.
I lost access and so made some hot chocolate, picked up my knitting and listened to some of Mansfield Park on librivox.org…
but it was frustrating not to be able to read what was going on. Almost (but not quite) like being shut out of all those meetings to broker backroom deals.
We compromised on Single Payer before the debate even began practically. That is what we wanted. There will be no changed to this bill because this is what Orahma wanted the entire time. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.
were you lookin for POND SCUM……..i was
Forget the bleach. White vinegar is good enough and less toxic. You can always add some baking soda if you need suds. ;~)
Reminds me of the math teacher I had, who said that the calculus is where you learn arithmetic.
What is funny about this is that there is a strong single payer contingent here at FDL and we have been mixing it up with Jane and other posters here for some time from the left side. The witch’s brew that is this healthcare bill finally got too toxic even for them. And now Jane is catching it from corporatist Democrats such as yourself. I have to say when we were fighting it was much more on substance but with you guys it’s all the atmospherics.
How exactly was Jane supposed to disagree with you? What gives you the right to try to control the nature of her disagreement anyway? Was it supposed to be “Well, you can disagree as long as you do it ineffectually”?
Some people think when they read and develop their ideas more precisely as they write and revise their writing.
Others just chose not to think about what they’re reading or think before they write at all.
Your point about education is very well taken. I had a prof as an undergrad whose lectures were based entirely on primary sources: historical docs, literature. He would read a selection, analyze it for us, read another selection, analyze it for us. He was an orator in the classical sense. Very engaging.
I learned more about how to read and think critically from his lectures than anywhere else. Skills that can be applied to anything.
Great teacher!
G’nite folks…except you concern trolls and DKos barnacles. For you I wish nightmares filled with naked Norquists chasing you through dark forests.
Oh yeah, and I thought Sallie sold them off to someone . . . is Fannie strictly home mortgage biz?
Someone from Kos linked to that here over the weekend. It is very interesting indeed.
A great saying, almost a zen koan.
Surely you mean Obama scandals? Bush had gotten way past 129, before he left office. ;)
Thank you, Jane!
This bears repeating. And exemplifies the difference between legitimate activism/opposition and mindless purity tests.
As I pointed out earlier today, even when Bush’s approval ratings were in the crapper and the Democrats controled Congress, he still got virtually everything he wanted. So your observation is patently false.
Thanks, SD woke me up also . . . . but I get the numbers, a VAST dif in mortgage v. student loan debt held.
Thanks, and thanks again for all your insightful commentary day in and day out . . .
But it’s true…! Arithmetic is sooo much easier after Calculus…! ;-)
No, no. A boogieman is someone you’re afraid of. don’t think anyone here is afraid of Rahm or just about anyone, ‘cept maybe kokalo’s friend Larry Craig. Now, if Larry came tapping at the stall next door, I’d be very, very afraid!
Thank you, Hugh!
Truer words were never spoken. That whole 60-vote threat is only a tool for the GOP, doncha know? Dems are not allowed to make them do a “real” filibuster.
Thanks . .
*G*
Not after you’ve been through two or three semesters of calculus. It really is all arithmetic. You just get some fancier tools to wrap around the basics. (You could use a triple integral to calculate the volume of a cube, but it’s like using a howitzer to kill gnats.)
707,….afraid of tiny dancer? ho ho ho…merry xmas
:~) I know how those things happen, when the comments are flying past.
Thanks for the lecture, we disagree completely on every point you made, and I won’t bother to engage any further.
Sorry to have bothered you . . . . I doubt any facts you’ve read to date have impacted your corpspeak, so I won’t bother to try.
Thanks for the reply.
Nite Praedor.
One day hopefully soon, all you naysayers will know that it was Jane and Progressives who “fought FOR and GOT Healthcare for everyone” in this country. And you know what? No ‘thanks’ or ‘praise’ will be needed because THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.
It’s about HUMAN RIGHTS.
It’s about YOU, it’s about ME.
It’s about FUTURE GENERATIONS.
It’s about DECENCY and RESPECT.
It’s about A MORAL AND (outright) RESPONSIBLITY of our Government to help it’s people.
It’s about DOING THE RIGHT THING FOR ALL AMERICANS.
Now what in the hell is wrong with that?
g’nite Praedor
LOL. Yes, Obama scandals. I stopped my Bush scandals list at 400. It would have had many more I suppose. But I started it back in early 2007, whereas with Obama I began it a few months into his Presidency.
You betcha…! Nuke’em till they glow…! ;-)
Unfortunately, I didn’t get past pre-calc and that was many years ago. I’ve been of a mind to try it out, but elsewhere someone suggested that I might prefer linear geometry. Unfortunately, the books she recommended were way out of my range.
I did find some free podcast lectures on MIT’s website, but I’ve been too busy paying attention to politics to have time for them. Maybe I should just do that anyway. I might have something more substantive to contribute if my numeracy were equal to my literacy.
Just who IS this so called left you refer to?
Howz my friend Bazzie? Have you gotten him and the other kids something nice for the holiday?
And into bathtubs of gin!
Thanks for your thoughts tonight . . .
I was wondering as well.
NOOOOOOO!!!!!!
I’m a prog, a lib, not Kossack, a Pup . . . they usurped MY Americana heroes?
Bastids, they killed Kenny again!!!!!
Nite, Praedor. Merry Christmas, or whatever you celebrate.
Thers upstairs, BTW.
thanks for asking ,all that sheepdog hair was shaved yesterday…goo from his operation,but he is great…doing research to find new Epilepsey medicationfrom PRGRESSIVE EUROPE…
EXACTLY.
And it most certainly IS NOT ABOUT Democrats/Republicans.
Health care is a basic human right. And like education, should be free at point of service and paid for though taxes, just like our public schools. We all benefit from an educated society, so well share in it’s costs (taxes). Likewise, we all benefit from a healthier society, and should share in its costs.
As for Democrats/Republicans, well, what this year has taught me is that the fucking super rich have gotton so damned rich over the last 30 years (since Reagan), that they can afford to buy BOTH parties.
Assholes.
pure greed
There’s a book, Calculus Made Easy, that might work for you. (It isn’t new, just revised a little.)
Yes, goin’ upstairs. If I don’t see some of you guys up there, have a Merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah, whatever you choose to celebrate!
(((Bazzie)))
Boy, I’ve learned alot too. Knew DC was corrupt – just didnt know how far and wide. Obama to me, was our ticket to breaking free of the strangle hold. Man was I duped.
Obama’s voice on his NPR Health Care Bill sell job tonight sounded like he knew his facade of not being worse than Bush was starting to crumble .. kinda edgy, hollow and brittle.
Shhh. He’s an undercover counter-troll trying to make trolls look bad.
Because of Rahm Emanuel’s clear disdain for progressives, I welcome any effort to kick this bully in his proverbial, political teeth.
The best thing that could happen to the Obama administration is bringing down the DLC wing that runs it, before they destroy what is left of the party.
You are one tough advocate. I, for one, appreciate your holding their feet to the fire.
It’s true. Praedor Atrebates is an early bird…
It’s the Secrecy, Stupid Tuesday, February 21, 2006
You’ll find haloscan comments from 2005 if you care to.
Promise? Do you really, REALLY promise?
No more taunting us with fake hopes?
Buh bye.
And door . . . your ass. . .
I believe that argument was refined over at Tiger Beat, where it was eloquently determined that David Cassidy did NOT perform “I Think I Love You” on his last tour just because he sang it in Cincinatti and Orlando. It all depends on your definition of PERFORM you know, and you’re being really unreasonable if you equate SING with PERFORM, because David is the one who gets to decide what it means, because he’s DAVID CASSIDY DAMMIT, and if HE says SING doesn’t mean PERFORM, then it doesn’t, because he’s smarter than you, and besides you’d probably just faint anyway if he actually tried to carry your books home from school or something.
same to you, pastfedup
Jane, persevere!!!
Joe Wilson was right – Obama IS A LIAR. He is a sell-out.
One immediate way of fighting back is to disrupt the self-enforced structures we voluntarily submit to.
We have found that waiting for elections, without the ability to recall liars just doesn’t work in the U.S.
We should align on issues, with whom ever is so aligned with us.
F**k Rahmbo. And the pony he rides.
Or should I say, Forget about Rahmbo.
You always make me laugh and I enjoy it. Thanks.
Just found this new one from David Swanson to F.Schaeffer. (must read if you havent)
Will WE Win?:
A Reply to Frank Schaeffer’s ‘Obama Will Win’
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7601
Wow…things are heating up out there! love it
I just LOVE the Teddy Partridge Family!
Geez Jane looks like ya did it again
Thanks, I’ll check that out, too!
Learning something big and new is also part of my longevity plan. ;~)
Can someone help me trouble shoot my PC? Only two signatures appear on my screen when I look at the letter Jane signed, hers and one from someone who compares taxation to mass murder and ethnic cleansing.
A bit of history, this is the same PC that very recently showed a strange error message. In it Jane maligned a breast cancer research philanthropy for its association with someone who once did something not perfectly in line with an agenda Jane supports.
Anyone else seeing this problem?
No, I’m not experiencing the same cognitive dissonance that seems to be influencing your pc.
Thanks A LOT for that link. I don’t who David Swanson is, but damned if that wasn’t about the best article I’ve read in a long time. Put my thoughts on paper better than I could’ve. Very well done.
I would HIGHLY recommend all pups take a look at it.
Yeah, Jane. Whatever.
So, lets see, maybe Ann Coulter will sign on. And Glenn Beck. And Rush. All aligned with YOU, Jane. feeling better?
And how about other issues surrounding people you don’t like. Hmmn, how about aligning with Chris Chocula (Club for Growth) against Christopher Dodd if you both agree Senator Dodd is not on the “up and up”.
To be honest Grover Norquist will use you for fodder for a GOP congress in 2010 and a Sarah Palin for President-type in 2012. He is smarter than you, politically. You are being used. NEVER trust a right-winger. NEVER.
Go it alone on this or align with another progressive but get yourself out of this now. You have no credibility.
Find another issue, go after “The Family” on C street or any of the crooked Republicans out there.
Are you kidding?????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I can’t believe ANY liberal would do something as stupid as you did.
I can’t believe ANY liberal would do something as stupid as you did.
Damn, I just had to write it twice.
Un-f-ingbelievable.
Oh yeah, Brian wanting us to encourage Vermont voters to vote out Bernie Sanders if he doesn’t vote against the health bill (or for any reason) is just as stupid. Maybe worse. I told him that.
Where did HE come from?
What kind of staff do you have there?
Are you kidding?????????????????????????????????????????????
You really didn’t have to write it twice. We got the message the first time. Loud and clear.
Is it my imagination, or are most of the critical comments about Jane finding common cause coming from guys?
Surprising, considering that we have heard for so many years that men are more objective than women.
Maybe not…
Why not ask a non-criminal, non-socipath, non-fascist, non-smug, non-fake conservative like Bruce Fein to co-sign that letter to Holder?
You’re welcome, Twain.
You know what they say about laughing + crying.
I’ve been feeling an awful lot like crying these last weeks, so it is good to laugh.
Tony’s better than your average troll, he takes some purty pictures.
I’m getting ready to enter hibernation. I hope by the time I emerge svelte and rested in Spring you folks have all this sorted out. “g”
I wouldn’t call FDL stupid… Where else can you read prescience like this?
More way-back machinery… (Over three years ago!)
August 19th, 2006 at 12:13 am
(My emphases…)
Folks who appreciate FDL write with passion. I know that folks who read FDL regularly are treated to the best in political/economic/environmental discussions.
Long live bloggers, mods and blog commenters. Trolls too. Thanks for FDL Jane!
How’d NAFTA work out for ya? Still waiting for the Glass-Steagall Act to get re-instated?
Even a drunk, after some point, knows he’s getting rolled.
The first step in recovery is to stop being rolled by the same characters.
I rationalized Obama’s every non-progressive decision since day one. No-more. If he does what a skunk does, he is a skunk, regardless of his oratory, his finger-waging, and speaking out of the side of his mouth.
Please spend more time in reality, and less in made-for-TV political soaps.
Given Obama’s widening ineffectuality, that would require Jane to become ever less effective in her criticism. The, “But we’re all in this together, don’t throw stones at each other”, gets harder to sell when you’re in Saville Row suits and G’town townhouses and your base is losing the pot it used to pee in.
This is a childish rational. Your partnership is okay because other people are doing it? Your actions in this matter are justified because other liberals have co-signed letters or petitions along with Grover Norquist or spoke on a panel with him? Wrong.
Your comment/reasoning regarding “media traction” is a joke. Seriously Jane, when was the last time you needed another person for “media traction?” Beyond a joke, it’s infuriating…
Like you Jane, I’m also a breast cancer survivor. I was diagnosed in my thirties. I was/am single. During treatment I was a free-lance archivist who had to carry my own health insurance and carry myself up to my fourth-floor walk up tenement apartment through multiple surgeries, four-months of chemo and six-weeks of almost daily radiation. Five-years later, it still stings. I still feel the effects of this shit-ass disease on my body, my mind, and my bank account. I wish I had one-half of one-percent of the “media traction” you possess to make people take notice of cancer and the ways in which it physically, emotionally and financially affects survivors. But I’d never team up with Norquist’s kind for media and political attention — I’m not speaking out of my ass here, I had the opportunity. There’s always another way, always someone else. Sorry for the cliches, nonetheless, here’s another one, the ends do not justify the means.
Jane, given your own media resources, there was no need for you to partner with Norquist.
What a disappointment…
With nommes de blogs, gender becomes like clothing. But yes, I would say more than a few comments are from Jonah Goldberg-like males of indeterminate political persuasion, and more than a few reek with sexism. (Well, not all of them.) That’s usually a good sign that while the trolls Karl used to command have changed commanders, but are doing their usual schtick.
So you’re saying that the ACLU, CAF, PFAW and other groups are all wrong, too? Why didn’t you say so in real time?
Chris Carney slipped in under the radar by pretending to be a Democratic veteran. His military service was working in the Office of Special Plans under Douglas Feith during the Bush administration. Someone should have picked this up when he was being vetted but he rode in with his ticket punched “veteran” so he was endorsed.
Big mistake.
Oh, and Jane… Good on ya.
With victory within sight, with the Senate about to pass a good health care reform bill (not a great one, but one that is a significant improvement over the status quo), Jane Hamsher proudly stands up and declares defeat. Bravo.
That’s a post.
Thanks, I was hoping for confirmation from someone male, rather than female. And, I hadn’t mentioned the pasty-whiteness, but now that you mention it…
I think the sincerely felt opponents of being more focused on results, than in staying in an abusive relationships, really need to self-examine.
Staying in an abusive relationship simply invites further abuse.
It is rational, logical, and admirable to break out of an abusive relationship.
And the Progressive movement has been nothing if not ABUSED by the Democratic Party for the last 20 years.
Enough is Enough!!!
I’m turning into a pumpkin or maybe a butternut squash. It’s past midnight on the east coast.
Thanks for this great post, Jane! It’s better than surreal.
Bruce would be good; he may already be on board. How do you know he’s not?
This game is also about grabbing the WH and media’s attention with enough oomph to suggest that practical consequences might ensue – of the kind that two Chicago pols like Rahma & Obahma understand – if they continue to treat Americans – their base included – as disposable wipes they need once every four years. Several 500 comment posts suggest Jane is on the right track.
Besides, this isn’t about sterile, tradmed-style personality contests. It’s about policy. It’s about the practical, pragmatic, non-ideological, cooperative, biputzism that keeps good people from having good government.
If we keep this debate to the pumps and pearls set, if only the correct, Not Rude people are invited over for a clawless catty chat, then progressives will become as effectual as Maureen Dowd.
There are a lot of free market people out there who still believe in capitalism over government but are outraged over what is going on these days. They rightly feel that crony capitalism is not capitalism and that the unholy alliance of govt and corporations just gets you the worst of both worlds. I have my own doubts about government being the answer when government looks like it does now. Once govt and business are back where they belong instead of enmeshed into a monstrosity, left and right can afford to go back to arguing over what to do with them. Right now, we can’t afford to argue while the monster uses the distraction to finish us both off.
I don’t get any of this shit. I guess it’s all part of that 11 dimensional chess that is just too much for my old fat dumb ass to understand.
But to me, doing the right thing is paramount. Who you do it with is secondary. If George W. Bush reemerged as a vocal supporter of Single Payer, I’d say welcome aboard! WTF is wrong about that?
Rahm Emanual should be investigated. So should all the folks in the previous administartion that gave torture a “Made in the USA” label. So should anyone who breaks any law. What’s the big deal who comes together and realizes a wrong must be righted? I just don’t get it.
Who sups with the devil must use a long spoon.
God. Forbid.
Now, I really do have to turn in. I need my beauty sleep.
Ya THINK?
;)
political mal-odor is an interesting metaphor for this thread, especially given the way some in these parts have smeared themselves in Norquistian Dark Matter today.
The stink doesn’t go away just because one rolls in it.
So you thought it was sad that Rod Blagojevich had to step down? Or Tom DeLay? Or Jim Traficant?
You mean the ACLU is evil because they’ve worked repeatedly with Grover Norquist? Please explain.
Hmm, that was quite prescient.
I recall that you wished it wouldn’t take so long. But making it happen is cool too.
Geez just the other day someone was saying this site was anti-intellectual and here we have a joke using GINI co-efficients in the body.
What’s the world coming to?
They (we) all know who Grover Norquist is and what his political history is. So do I. That’s not the point.
So what exactly “is” Grover Norquist and “what” did he do?
This is all I’ve wanted to hear from Hamsher or one of her FDL..um “pups” all evening on the other thread and now this one. And as of yet not one person wants to touch the question with a ten foot pole.
Until they can with a straight face answer that question, none of this has any legitimacy and it’s simply a counter-productive exercise in confusion and manipulation and political wankery.
Please do tell more about this Tom Delay fellow. Did he have an close associates who helped him with his thievery and corruption to fund a permanent GOP majority. Please enlighten.
Well, since a scatological sequence appears in play, and using a currently popular phrase, can I assume you sense the urination on the progressives by the DLC’ers for the last 20 years as being a thing of a pleasant fragrance?
Not true — click on the “You’re soaking in it” link…
If we keep this debate to the pumps and pearls set, if only the correct, Not Rude people are invited over for a clawless catty chat, then progressives will become as effectual as Maureen Dowd.
Well, look my standards aren’t really that high, but can we keep it to people, rude or otherwise, that aren’t very close associates of first class a-holes and criminals like Tom Delay and Jack Abramoff, who, you know, might feel a bit weird about using Congress to establish a slave colony in American Somoa and who, you know might actually give a flying fig about the middle or working class and didn’t suck all the warmth out of a room with his avarice and cold dead dead eyes.
NYT, The Atlantic, and Politico have all picked up the story.
Amazing after 456 comments, Rahm Emanuel is only mentioned three times in the comments and those three times are by supporters of Jane. It would be nice if those critical of Jane expressed their opinions of the underlying conduct.
Any Liberal progressive or whatever name you go by that teams up with Grover Norquist is prostituting themselves for attention.
This man never saw anything wrong with the Bush White House to demand an investigation muchless a resignation. Now he has the nerve to call for Rahm’s resignation as if he has any authority over who serves. For you Jane to link yourself with this prick is beyond comprehension.. Shame on you..And I will let you know in person what I think of your association with Norquist, a man who thinks Tom Delay is the best thing to have happened to politics in America.
This Rahm Eamnuel fellow seems to be just the one that deserves the focus of our full attention. At every turn he appears as the one leading the charge to protect big mortgage lenders, big insurers and big drug makers. Now we see that he is alleged to have been a weasel and a thief.
Why would anyone decry Jane joining forces with whomever else was interested in egging on the Justice Dept. to investigate the man? Our good Mr. Emanuel also is the man that apparently was key in the machinations that spawned the putrid HCR product that enshrines profiteers to watch over our health system.
This scoundrel also happens to be the right hand man behind our dear leader himself. He is a modern day Rasputin, apparently wreaking havoc everywhere at once. Whispering into Obama’s ear and not surprisingly profiteering himself to boot.
Go after this guy Jane whole heartedly and relentlessly. Let him get his just deserts. In the process we will have one less obstacle to overcome in derailing all his best laid plans. You will also be sending a barely veiled message to the chosen one that the public is up in arms.
Oh please, since when has the ACLU ever made an announcement that it as an organization and Grover Norquist were requesting the investigation in wrong doing by a politician.
I’m a card carrying ACLU member as the saying goes, that doesn’t meant that I support the hate spouted off by the KKK even though I support their right to express themselves or that I’m teaming up with Grover effin’ Norquist because we both have a big problem with the PATRIOT act.
Anyhow, it remains to be seen what if anything comes out of this other than a lot of schadenfreud from the Right and confirming the worst paranoia’s of crazy unbalanced tea-baggers, but I’m calling it a night and I’m going to wait and see how this all comes out in the next few days.
This woman despises the fact that she was told to get out of her PJs and go get some sun. This is personal for her.
Wow. On fire and channelling. The quicker this corporatist pimp can be brought down the better – 3 more years of this BS and you’re looking at a country destroyed, the decimation of the dems and tea-baggers in the WH. Seriously great work Jane!
“cept maybe kokalo’s friend Larry Craig”
Is that really gay joke? Just call me a fag and be done with it why don’t you.
You are so right on.
I can tell you unequivocally that nobody in San Francisco would have a problem with a Craig joke. Indeed, I’m sure they would agree.
TEDDY PARTRIDGE!!
((((swoon))))))
Well, here I am late to the party again. I’ve been reading the objections to Jane’s strategy here and those that don’t amount to one-line homilies or insults were pretty accurately characterized by Hugh @ 369 – situational outrage. If Barack Obama were doing this, or someone else they like to follow, they’d be fine with it.
I liked this idea when Howard Dean said we need to find a way to talk to the guys who have the Confederate flags in their pickup trucks, and I agree with it now. This is what adults do – they find common cause with people they wouldn’t normally agree with. They find a way to make the changes we need to make. If Grover Norquist or Bruce Fein agree with us, great. Sign ‘em up.
Jane’s right on this for the same reason Howard Dean was, you don’t stop talking to people or working with them because you don’t like their views.
You know that you’re dealing with complete dead-enders when the country’s getting ready to write another $400 billion check that will go to the banks for toxic mortgages (something the country really, really cares about) and they’re obsessed with the personalities opposing it (which approx. 0% of the country cares about).
I’m good with PCs, and I can diagnose this problem right here. It’s called a headspace and timing issue. It affects operators who don’t pay attention.
At first, I thought that the article and petition about Hadassah Lieberman sounded like some sort of personal attack. But then I did something that you apparently have yet to do – I read the article carefully. Sure enough, the reason wasn’t because we don’t like Mrs. Lieberman being associated with a charity, we don’t like it that she’s being paid a huge salary for work she’s not qualified to do. This is a form of payoff.
So, now please enjoy your computing experience.
Shark has been jumped. Bye, bye, Footnote-to-History Hamsher. BTW, Norquist will shiv you in the back once you have served his purpose. Unless you were secretly BFFs all along…Hmmmm….
P.S. Guess it is like the last Admin never happened…or it is in reaction to the last Admin as abused spouse syndrome…but projected on the new guy. Sad.
Speaking of Dean and the Confederacy, here’s some text from that speech:
from a CNN report. Good thing we didn’t get their attention, isn’t it?
And now that Dean is hedging on his rash “Kill the Bill” pronouncements, I guess y’all will soon be tarring him with the corporate lackey/sellout/unclean brush, too?
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_12/021611.php
I mean if you can kick Bernie Sanders in the ‘nads, who’s really pure enough for the FDL crowd, right? Like Grover Norquist pure, I mean…
LOL…
Sorry Jane when you ally yourself with Grover Norquist you lost me. I don’t care what your cause is – Grover is a despicable, evil Un-Americican SOB! By by Jane
You do know that you don’t have to officially sign out, don’t you? You can just stop reading and commenting.
(The advantage to this approach is that if it turns out you weren’t entirely correct in your initial assessment of the situation, you can remain a part of the general dialog and no one will be the wiser ;-)
Check out this You Tube video of the masses in MD shouting down Obama at a health care appearance. I hope there is more of this to come
http://www.iviewtube.com/v/86022/president-obama-gets-heckled-at-health-care-rally
This is pretty revealing:
“…served his purpose.” Did Jane sign some blood oath to serve Grover? Or Did Grover sign Jane’s letter?
Are Democrats exempt from the rule of law because of 8 years of Bush? Is it wrong to investigate possible crimes committed by Democrats before the statute of limitations runs out, just because you haven’t investigated more recent crimes by Republicans first?
And didn’t you say you were leaving?
I took Linear Algebra, which contained a subsection of Linear Geometry; came in really handy in advanced computational graphics courses.
I actually kind of miss mathematics. I so very rarely have to use anything complex in my work. Outside of Operations Research and Discrete Math, there’s almost zero mathematics involved in the areas of Software Engineering and Computer Science that I deal with professionally.
Calc 1,2,3
Diff Eq
Linear Algebra
Elementary Numerical Analysis
Stats
I’m glad I took them, because I know exactly what kinds of problems require which kinds of mathematics to solve/describe. As a result, I can relearn any of them relatively quickly when I need to, but I often wish that my life directly involved the use of more interesting math.
And you do know about clearing Cookies, don’t you?
The advantage to this approach is that when never-satisfied “Liberals” vote for no-chance 3rd party candidates and put Rethugs back in power, it makes it harder for the Cheney squad to trace your treasonous browsing history and throw your whiny ass in jail.
Merry, merry.
I understand completely and those were good references as to what this is about. I don’t like what the daily kos has turned into, but I think kos has been right on lately and there are about half of the people there that are good. Lately they have been obsessed with you and I try to get your back, because I think you are an important voice. I have been saying many of the same things in a reply to all the hate there. I think this is a good way to point out the idiocy that David Sirota aptly terms partisan war syndrome:
Anyway it is about principle, and remember that there are some kossacks that still that have your back and are glad you are out there.
Nah, I like it here. The homogeneity of opinion and cult worship of Jane is really soothing. Feels like RedState only slightly less, I dunno, locker room-ey.
As a side note I quit the ACLU when they decided to surrender all principles and actually pay trash such as Barr and Dick Armey.
These sort of actions come back and bite progressives later on when these vile individuals can claim legitmacy because they at one time signed a letter with Ms. Hamsher and/or worked with the ACLU.
This simply gives them cover for their continued subversion of the Constitition and demeaning of humanity.
I cannot adequetely express the depth of my disgust for individuals such as Norquist and Barr.
I only hope that Jane has a very, very long spoon. ( when one dines withe the devil use a long spoon)
I continue to support Jane’s efforts to make this a better world but I feel she has made a serious error in judgement on letting her name be attached to this trash.
I honestly don’t understand the vilification directed at Jane Hamsher because of this letter. What in the world is wrong with finding where we and the “nutjobs” actually agree? How does merely associating herself on this one issue with somebody we love to hate produce venom like this? If I’m introduced to Grover Norquist and shake his hand, will I be forever sullied in some way?!?
There are millions of teabaggers out there, and we don’t have any place to “put” them. Perhaps they would appreciate a little attention to their concerns. You know, talking to them like they’re people, which they are. Calling them “trash” is the next step before gassing them. In fact, I’m beginning to understand why they’re so upset. If you think they’re sub-human or utterly convinced of their inability to feel or reason, then why do we allow them to roam free? Jesus, is there a redneck loony out there who wouldn’t like cheaper, fairer health insurance like Medicare for all?
Jane is right. There’s a larger issue here than Rahm or health care or any sub-issue. It’s the corporate domination of our politics. The people who see that need to be talking to each other. That’s how change happens. We are all part of the same thing. We’re all citizens and human beings. Recognizing this is the first step toward getting anything done.
We all know Rahm’s a fucking crook. The issue is whether the means, as in possibly helping hand Grover Norquist the head of a Democratic Chief of Staff, justify the ends. It’s one thing to sign a letter with Norquist against provisions of the Patriot Act or a piece of legislation. It’s another thing to call for the ouster of a member of the administration.
Mind you, I am not especially critical of Jane, I think the basic strategy has great merit. But I’m seriously ASKING THE QUESTION, and I hear no one really addressing the aftermath of all this.
Oh, Jane, you make me smile.
Please find an article or a comment where you think I “kicked Sanders in the nads” and I’ll explain what your perceptual problem is. Meanwhile, I assume you’re just flinging feces.
Thank you for this!
The result of the alliance is what’s important, and what goal it can achieve. That their is a despicable ally matters not, clearly his despicableness didn’t prevent others from allying with him to achieve their goals.
And those others, I will point out again, were MEN. Who were never challenged, disparaged, insulted, and excoriated for their associations with Norquist. Not by anyone.
This is, at its heart, gender-based criticism of Jane.
“To Serve Grover”
… it’s a cookbook!
That’s why the call it Inconvenient Truth, for those willing to look the other way when it comes to your side of the isle . Jane your right on the mark.
There’s no analogy there. These organizations serve entirely different purposes. Particularly the ACLU, a non-partisan organization, whose mission is to protect the constitutional rights of individuals and institutions, regardless of beliefs, political parties, positions, etc.
Again, there was absolutely no need for Jane to align herself with Norquist — her written request to the Justice Dept. could have been made by herself and further promoted by herself on TV. And if she wanted, she could have found any number of individuals who are neither hateful, ignorant nor bigoted to have co-signed this request.
I find her partnering with Norquist distasteful, because I find Norquist utterly distasteful. It was a dumb move and in my opinion, it trashes her credibility. Imagine Hannity and Beck’s broadcasts concerning this partnership…?
Part of Jane’s defense of this choice was about how it’s the principles that matter, not the personality. Well, what about Norquist’s principles? Does he even have any?
I do not doubt that Jane’s motives were driven by her principles. However, I also believe they were equally driven by politics and punditry. Norquist, his motives were simply to attack the White House, etc.
It’s business as usual, they are each players (written without judgment, just was is).
They are using each other, a backroom-like deal, how things get done. As Jane writes above, “this stuff has been happening for years right on this very blog.” There is no analogy between this “unholy” partnership and the ACLU, PFAW, etc. — it’s politics v. policy.
I’ve written enough and I must go to sleep. Although our methods differ (place me in the Krugman camp), we ultimately share the same goals. Good luck to us all (Jane too).
Jane,
I admire you. I completely support you and the entire FDL Community.
Now —
This is a very foolish alliance.
The risk is certainly not worth the reward.
Your partner, this new activist BFF, knows you better than you do yourself…that’s something you’d do well to keep in mind. I know him as well, better than he knows himself, or his larger “group”. And this is the WRONG move. (You are no Ambassador Spock…).
You’ll learn, although it will be painful.
I will spare you a senseless rant, nor will I submit to this board an anal retentive, overly formatted, thousand word precis on the likes of Norquist or similar conservative (Anti-Government) acolytes, I will just simply tell you this; you’re making a huge mistake and you fucking know it!
I wish you and US all the best. ‘Tis the season.
I hereby refer to Jane as the Pharaoh that did not know…
It’s not at all clear that we all know that. Many seem to want to avoid the substance of the letter all together. I reread some of your posts from yesterday and I tend to believe you are sincere. But the trolls were like a pack of wildebeests today. Look above and see just how little they wanted to discuss Rahm and corruption.
Seems to me that many of your critics think linearly, as in left vs right on the political spectrum. To their way of thinking Norquist is an enemy under all circumstances. Strangely some, or even most, of your critics know about the 2-dimensional model of political identification (e.g., Political Compass), yet they neglect its usefulness when making temporary political alliances. Thank goodness people like Representative Alan Grayson know when to join unlikely forces for specific purposes.
Whatevs. Buy yourself some flea dip, Jane.
Jane,
Great job in teaming up with Norquist! This move is getting such a strong response because it is so dangerous to the ruling elite as it puts in question their divide and rule strategy. The kool-aid the ruling elite want you to drink is that we are divided into two camps; right and left, and each camp is faithfully represented by the Republicans or the Democrats. But of course this is a lie and is only a divide and rule strategy. The true division in the US is between the “have-mores” and “have nots” History is full of examples of similar divide and rule strategies. Read Josephus to see how the Jews were divided during the Roman occupation of Judea. The sun never set on the British Empire because the Brits set Hindu against Muslim in India, Catholic against Prot in Ireland, and Jew against Muslim in Palastine. In Africa the Belgians set the Hutu against the Tutsi, while the British divided Sudan and set Igbo against Hausa in Nigeria.
What the left/right division only furthers is the concentration of wealth in the hands of the rich; and helps hide the real class divisions in America. It further hides the fact that the “have-mores” are represented by the major politicians of BOTH parties while the “have-nots” have not any political clout to speak of. The wealthy elite use the condition responses of the “have-not” masses to shepherd the masses into their pens. So they have their wingnuts attack a Health Bill, often with racially tinged comments, and many among the masses, after years of careful conditioning, respond like Pavlov’s dog and seek out their pre-ordained ideological boxes which the ruling elite have so carefully constructed for them.
Jane, I am sure that at some point the a few of the more intelligent Hutu and Tutsi leaders tried to get together to fight against the Belgian colonial authorities. And I’m sure many of their followers were aghast that Jane Hutu would dare to work with Grover Tutsi. We can now laugh at the obviousness of their common interest and the cluelessness of their supporters who were shocked that a Hutu would make common cause with a Tutsi. Similarly it is so sad that the few “progressives” insist and even cherish the ideological boxes the wealthy elite have chained them to. Keep up the good work; and don’t forget that you have many potential allies at the eco-blogs such as Naked Capitalism, Zero Hedge, and Calculated Risk.
Jane good on you!
Just as Bush was the “untier not the divider” president Obama will be the “don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good” president. I say don’t let a hackneyed cliché be the handmaiden of failure.
You Rock Jane!
I just registered here because of a stupid fucking diary about this that I just saw at D/Kos. Good for you Jane! You are head and shoulders above that little prick Markos Mouli-whatsisname as a person and a writer. I see from the comment threads over there that anyone who takes as principled a stand on this issue as you and Norquist are dismissed, ignored or personally attacked–in other words, same as it ever was at the Orange.
Jane Hamsher has friends in low places now! I guess you’re not powerful enough on your own so you’re bringing in the pond scum to help ya. Good luck with that! I can’t wait to see the right wing campaign videos next year with you in them. Congratulations!
Will you spending the holiday with Glenn Beck and his Mormon Militia to prove to us how tough you are?
Jane is the New Joe Lieberman! Way to go Jane. *shaking my head* Where were you when George Bush & Dick Cheney were committing war crimes? How come you didn’t come down hard on them? Oh wait! You’re Joe Lieberman now. You protected them but to show any kind of strength you spend your days now going after Democrats!
You suck.
Wow, the vitriol within the conserva….i mean progressive movement is crazy. its like this group of people have become to the left what the teabaggers are to the right. That may or may not be a good thing (RW teabaggers will probably affect Republicans than you guys will Democrats), but this could end up costing Dems seats next election, (ie could make a bad loss of seats a huge loss of seats).
I respect the fact that you’re fighting for the people, but isn’t teaming up with Grover Norquist to go after Rahm, a little much, given that ABSOLUTELY NO-ONE from the Bush era has been investigated? why don’t GN and JH team up to go after Dick Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al?
Rahm might be a corporate controlled triangulator, but last I heard he didn’t falsify evidence to lead the world’s only superpower into an illegal war………..isn’t this a poor use of resources?
hey, how about going after some Bushies before launching a full frontal attack on the new guys? why is it that only Democrats seem to be held accountable?
wont your new friends on the libertarian right help you take down someone on their side as well? thought not.
great minds, EXACTLY what I was thinking!
these people complain about Obama and Rahm coming down heavy on progressives and not going after conservadems. what about this little get up now, going after Rahm and not Condoleeza bloody Rice or Donald f(ck up RUmsfeld
Speaking of “performing”, which right winger will you drop your draws next for? Inquiring minds would love to know! Maybe I have to read Tiger Beat to find out?
Hey, Jane Lieberman Hamsher is in charge now! She’ll make sure the right wingers are protected but will use all of her strength (and friends in low places!) to go after the health care reformers! See?
Can’t wait to see how the right wingers use her next year in their campaign videos. Even if health care reform is passed and signed into law, it won’t matter because Jane is gonna help the republicans in achieving a huge 2010 victory to make sure there are no changes or updates to the existing bill! She will be against single payer, the public option, and will be hanging out with Karl Rove, you know, to point and laugh at the country.
They have done a lot of work going after Bushies on this site.
Really? Is this what we’re arguing about? Who signs a letter with whom? Christ.
I don’t go after the “Bushies” because they hold no power at this point. The problem right now, today, are the wealthy scum who dress up in Democratic outfits. Do I really need to remind you that Democrats have 60 seats in the Senate, an overwhelming majority in the House and the Presidency? Look, I live in Europe and we have an outstanding health system here in Belgium. I don’t see why my children should benefit from such a great system while my nieces and nephews have a crap system in America. The Democrats hold more than enough power to pass a proper European-style health care plan that has been standard in Europe for more than 50 years. One of the reason they didn’t is because too many on the left were too busy fawning over the latest First Family portraits instead of hitting the Democrats as hard as they needed to be whacked. But the main reason is that the Democrats, as well as the Republicans are bought and owned by the wealthy elite. The partisan system is designed so that party “faithful” will overlook the obvious faults of “their” team and jsut focus all their anger and hate on the other team.
In fact, screaming about the “Bushies” while the Rahms, Obamas, Larry Summers, Tim Geitners, and Rick Rubins ass rape the people of the Untied States is worse than doing nothing. Look at how much of your money Obama and crew have given to AIG, Citi, Goldman Sachs, etc. Now they are giving huge “mandates” to the health insurance companies. Tomorrow it will be the newspaper industry that gets free taxpayer cash. Now I wouldn’t have a problem if they nationalized these companies, but no, that would never do for the Rahm-bama criminals. They only bring in the government when large corporations have losses that need to be passed on to the US taxpayer. When there are profits to be divvied out then that’s when the government gets lost and huge bonuses are paid to Rick Rubin and his crew. Privatize the profits, socialize the losses, that is the rallying call of both the Democrats and the Republicans.
Why not get back to the subject at hand though. Is Rahm a criminal, yes or no?. I have read upstream people basically saying that yes, of course he is a criminal but he is “our” criminal so let’s not push things. While I disagree about him being “our” (unless you mean AIG, Citi and GS)criminal, just think if someone said that about a racist or a child molester. Yeah, he’s a racist but he is our racist so it’s all good? I don’t think so. Rahm “Madoff” Emmanuel belongs in jail and I am proud that Jane and Grover are working hard to put him there.
But just wait. The real reason the wealthy elite have put Obama in power is for him to “reform” social security and medicare after the 2010 elections. See he needs to pick up where Bush failed. I hope many of you sheep out there will wake up in time to defend these programs.
This is brilliant and so are the responses. I congratulate you Ms Hamsher for scaring the crap out of the Democratic windsocks. The folks who are so alarmed at speaking to Republicans apparently do not have to associate with anyone with whom they disagree or even dislike in their work, civic, or personal lives. This is how coalitions are formed and President Obama does not have any problems doing it with corporations, contributors, cronies, or recalcitrant Republican congresspersons if they have something he wants. All is fair in love and war. Some of the Democratic party have declared war after being double crossed. It is just politics and the name calling doesn’t work anymore.
I had given up hope of the left ever learning how to negotiate. Way to go, Jane. Well played.
Keep up the good work Jane! I can see the WH is now employing Karl Rovian tactics in trying to undermine you. They are all over the internet and are hell bent in trying to manufacture the appearance of a, how did Rahm put it, a backlash against the progressive backlash. Yeah, right.
The WH needs to know the problems with their base are real, they are deep, and they are serious. Obama cant get re-elected without the base. Without a strong public option, Obama cant win a second term.
This clintonian triangulation bullshit is exactly why I didnt vote for Hillary in the primary.
Hope you get your TV show
I’m glad there is a real champion for progressives. Rock on, Jane!
Jane, sorry to inject a personal opinion here, but I just happen to trust you. Whether or not this particular initiative works out as you envision it, there’s no doubt in my mind that you’re the person I want on the case. Why? Because you have great instincts and you’re in touch with the zeitgeist. Analysis only goes so far.
Thanks for all your work.
Followed FDL for years, registered specifically to agree that this and the general resistance to the Obama Administration sellout are the right course.
Gretchen Morgenson and Louise Story (great newspaper name or what?) in NYT this a.m. “smoking gun” story on greatest financial fraud of all times and Goldman Sachs role in it
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/24/business/24trading.html
time for Jane and Orville to send a letter off to AG calling for investigation of Lewis A. Sachs, who this year became a special counselor to Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner and of Geithner himself.
leave it to the NYTs to come up with the first smoking gun and to publish the story on Christmas Eve…
Jane:
Though I’m late to this thread, I felt compelled to respond, nonetheless. The heavily-documented explanation detailed above makes it abundantly clear what your motivation and goals are here. For those who don’t get it, I would say the same thing that Aaron Copland said (in an entirely different context) about his earliest critics: “Give ‘em time. They’ll come around…”
What a classy girl you are. Go get ‘em…
Maybe not you, per se, but your home blog sure gave ol’ Bernie a swift kick to the tender manparts:
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/23/vt-voters-to-bernie-sanders-stand-up-for-whats-right-or-risk-losing-your-seat/
“We want to let Senator Sanders know that he’s headed down a path with ramifications so serious that can threaten his seat.”
Like primary him from the Left? The only Socialist? Really? And this is different from the Tea Bagger “purity tests” how exactly?
You may wish to consult the Bristol Scale.
I’m with you Jane!
Alliance based on common principles is not betrayal.
“Dear Kevin: this is about a $400 billion bank bailout. It’s not about your BFF.”
Issues. I would vote for Glenn Beck if he was on the right side of the issues more than another candidate. I supported Hillary until she conceded. I did not have any particular antagonism for B.O. but, I would not say he was my second choice either. He was speaking on the correct side of the issues for me. Now, that I know for sure he cannot be trusted, my support and vote are out of reach for him. Most of my friends are Republicans and or conservatives. We get along just fine. We debate issues all the time. I would never vote for them for anything no matter how close we are. They see the world in a way I want to progress from, not to. There is a populist contingent on the conservative side of politics and in reality there are more similarities than differences between us. The Republican and Democratic party apparatchik are more similar than different as well. Corrupt.
If the Republican party found it’s way out of the corruption then, they would be a better choice than the Democratic crooks. It is the issues, not party and damn sure not personality.
I want affordable Health care for everyone.
I want full employment.
I want honest and corruption-free government.
I want to stop being the global enforcer who constantly in action but getting nothing done.
I want clean water and clean food.
I want an infrastructure that is maintained.
I want the death penalty for corrupt government officials.
I want freedom and equality for everyone, no exclusions.
If someone can deliver these and other from the right side of the spectrum then they would get my vote.
“Rahm might be a corporate controlled triangulator, but last I heard he didn’t falsify evidence to lead the world’s only superpower into an illegal war………..isn’t this a poor use of resources?”
Rahm is the one telling Obama to protect the previous administration.
“You suck.”
Is this the best you have?
Working with racist psychopaths like Norquist? You’re on your own. Remember the parable about the scorpion and the frog? You’re the frog.
Jane,
I enthusiastically support your push with Grover Norquist for investigations into Rahm’s activities at Freddie Mac, and I hope it succeeds.
Unfortunately, it probably won’t, because AG Holder has turned out to be Alberto Gonzalez-lite. He’s played a big part in the White House’s attempts at covering up Bush illegalities than I could have ever fathomed.
And to think Holder told Congress that he would be the people’s attorney, not the President’s attorney. Makes me sick! Nothing ever changes in Washington — the most corrupt city on the planet.
Jane, I love you, I appreciate all of your hard work and will continue to support the FDL family and rally for the Progressive movement, but I think your jumping the shark on this one. Not a good strategic move. I appreciate the sentiment but I’m not ready to damage the party and play into the hands of the Republicans.
You can always gage effectiveness by the amount of opposition you get from the status quo . And get a handle on just who the opposition is. This round was full of surprises.
I am seeing articulate support on the so called progressive blogs . I am truly sorry to see the changes in Huff Po. Change is hard for US old timers.
Business as usual gets us…….
Jane, I applaud creative thinking in a paralyzed “democracy” – none of the old ways work any more. Thanks for being willing to think outside the box.
The fact that you can debate issues…and have different values from your friends speaks well for you. Like your need to be cahanged issues too.
With the right and left angry at our reps. in DC. We are seeing a paradigm(sp?) shift.
We just have to ask why there was not a similiar outcry when bill clinton pushed a far right agenda?
When Obama gave tax payer’s money to criminal institutions called banks.
We used to flabbergast at the right wingers supporting all gbush’s initiatives which were diametrically opposed to all things dear to conservatives.State’s rights , individual rights and the constitution.Throw in Jeff Gannon for fun.
What if that situation were reversed now?Jeff Gannon was sitting in the WH press room for 2 years with the press corpse.Nobody noticed he was not a journalist.Much less a paid gay hooker and spent the night on occ. at the WH. Bet even Wolf Blitzer would have covered that story.Fox News would have gone into detail. And when people would cry out the children the children. Fox would just say hey ..we have to earn money. This stuff sells.
Oh and not to mention the total looting of the treasury. The 2 trillion “lost” from the by the Pentagon. What if that money had been lost from say the Dept. of Education in Obama’s tenure.
Think Fox News would have called Obama a homo sexual?
I appreciate the efforts to support good health care reform, and the extra $400 TARP-like funds you write about does seem to be a big problem. But allying with Grover Norquist was, politically at least, very stupid. It lost you a lot of supporters that otherwise would have rallied to your cause.
“This is, at its heart, gender-based criticism of Jane.”
Your statement, at it’s heart, silly.
But what kind of supporters were they, really? Fair weather, perhaps?
I have no problem with criticizing Obama or anyone else in his administration, nor with seeing Jane strike up unique partnerships, based on shared principles if it will help to wrest control of our government from the corporatists who have hijacked it, just as trolls try to hijack comment threads (I’m not calling you a troll). Only problem is that the corporatists are far more effective.
What makes many progressives (though not all) different from so many conservatives and members of the GOP, is our willingness to criticize our own when they do not measure up. To some, it appears like a circular firing squad, but that’s merely because they do not recognize the principles at work.
I understand that it is difficult for those who jumped on the Obama bandwagon so early on to now see him being vilified for following too closely the policies that under Bush were so odious, but part of developing political maturity is recognizing such consequences and dealing with them.
Not all of us jumped on that bandwagon. Frankly, Obama was not my first, second or even third choice from last year’s field of candidates. The whole cult of personality thing was extremely chilling and unnerving to me. Nor did I ever believe the PR about him being so liberal or progressive. I never, ever really believed him on women’s issues, especially on reproductive health. It was clear that he never really trusted women with the responsibility of making their own choices without the superior guidance from several men (husband, doctor, pastor).
I will admit that women’s health and reproductive issues are something of a litmus test with me. Lots of men don’t really get it. Those who do, I admire tremendously. Obama is not (for now) in that category.
“Bernie Sanders tells the world on MSNBC Insurance companies are laughing all the way to the bank. (our kids amd grand kids will view the Bernie Sanders clip for years, and ask how DUMB was MOM and DAD?)”
I don’t care one bit if the insurance companies do well under this bill. Their financial health is not particularly relevant to the necessity of providing health care. Of all the reasons for opposing the bill, that is the worst one.
We have not been battling against the insurance companies because we hate them, but rather because they are trying to perpetuate a system that is broken. If they have to be bribed or propped up to get the new system rolling, that’s fine with me. Call it part of the stimulus if you like. Plenty of ordinary, non-rich people are employed in the insurance business.
Good thoughtful comments re. Jane on DU.
We are seeing a cross fire/perfect storm.
Obama bots have to admit he has reached out a loong ways to be bi partisan. Rick Warren at the inauguration? He was hesitant to criticize the Family run push in Uganda to execute gays. Now that is some real bi bipartisan.Sat down with bill o’reilly?
Sexism can just be thrown into the mix .After Christmas , this will go viral.
I think it’s time to take into account the new provisions of the Senate bill, supposedly inserted by Reid at the last minute. If those provisions are as strong as has been portrayed, it might be time to reevaluate opposition to the bill. That opposition was, of course, based on the bill as it was before those changes were made.
Good for you, Jane Hamsher!
Politics is about bringing pressure. So, then, you apply the pressure; Congress sits on its hands. So, bring the TV cameras. If they’re all way busy pointing at a baby in a mineshaft instead, call the cops. Has a marvelous way of focussing the two former shiftless parties’ attentions.
Again, great. Wish I’d thought of it. I dingdang KNEW that Rahm was the consigliere that got Obama the corporo-papal blessing going in to the convention…. Funny–never saw any press resources prying open that particular can of worms.
Kevin, I have been pointing this out about Social Security since before Obama was the nominee.
Just as Clinton’s role was to get NAFTA, GATT, and WTO pushed through along with eviscerating welfare, Obama’s role is in further impoverishing the working and middle classes and then doing away with the current Social Security system by claiming the fiscal realities don’t allow for everyone to be saved. Well, not everyone AND the banks and you know we all need the banks, right?
Late to the party again. Oh, well.
Triangulating against the master triangulator. Brilliant.
Taking on Obama/Rahm/Dodd/Frank/Bernacke/Summers’s beloved banksters on every front. Essential.
Standing up to the Obama true believers and apologists for Congressional Dems: Courageous.
BTW, Larue@160, if you wander back this way by chance. Very well said. If Ph.D.s candidates in history and poly sci aren’t asking that question for the next 100 years, there probably won’t be a lot of questions being asked at all.
“Principles over personalities” is a nice slogan. But it is a slogan. There are many issues our principles could lead us to raise, protest or put on the front burner. These are some questions I don’t know if all of these commenters have addressed in their own minds:
1. Will raising this issue about Rahm Emanuel further progressive causes?
2. Will raising this issue help avert an injustice and provide some short-run benefit to large numbers of people?
3. Is Rahm Emanuel the problem in the Obama Administration that is keeping Obama from pursuing his “progressive agenda”?
4. Is the progressive movement better off in the long run by employing a full-scale attack on the Obama Administration?
5. What is Grover Norquist’s interest in raising this issue?
6. Is co-signing a letter with Norquist likely to aid him significantly in bringing about his real goals in pushing for this investigation?
There are many more questions, but these may be a starter.
Al Gore & Bob Barr Team Up to Fight Against Civil Liberties Absues by the Bush Administration on Martin Luther King Jr. Day in 2006!!! Obama has continued the Bush administration’s abuses and illegal extraconstitutional measures, inlcuding the healthcare bill–which includes DICTATORAL MANDATES!!!!!!
“Congressman Barr and I have disagreed many times over the years, but we have joined together today with thousands of our fellow citizens—Democrats and Republicans alike—to express our shared concern that America’s Constitution is in grave danger….In spite of our differences over ideology and politics, we are in strong agreement that the American values we hold most dear have been placed at serious risk by the unprecedented claims of the Administration to a truly breathtaking expansion of executive power….As we begin this new year, the Executive Branch of our government has been caught eavesdropping on huge numbers of American citizens and has brazenly declared that it has the unilateral right to continue without regard to the established law enacted by Congress to prevent such abuses….It is imperative that respect for the rule of law be restored….”———-Al Gore Speech on “Restoring the Rule of Law” at the American Constitution Society for Law and Policy from January 16, 2006
Maybe Kevin Drum can go and yell at Al Gore for teaming up with Bob Barr…I mean Bob Barr only sought to IMPEACH Bill Clinton….Then Kevin Drum can go yell at Bill Clinton for making nice with Newt Gingrich….and then Kevin Drum can go yell at Barack Obama for continuing to heap praise on Richard M. Nixon and Ronald W. Reagan in his Oslo speech….then Kevin Drum can go an yell at Obama for keeping so many of the Bush appointments on board in his administration….Then Kevin Drum can go yell at Obama for recently hiring a former Bush employee to head his cybersecurity team….Then Kevin Drum can go yell at Obama for being spineless and opening his arms wide in allowing Joe Lieberman back into the fold…
Just remember you Jane Hamsher bashers and wise-asses, that Joe Lieberman stood behind of all people you hate, Sarah Palin, and laughed, giggled, smiled, and openly clapped his hands as the Lady from Alaska said that “Obama consorts with terrorists” and “hangs around with terrorists like Bill Ayers.” And you Jane Hamsher bashers only need to know that your man Joe Lieberman who voted with all the other spineles Democrats SUPPORTED THE McCain-Palin Ticket…..
I can also go into the actual long and deep friendship between Bill Clinton and Poppy Bush….some other time when minds and brains are more open to honest debate and discussion and wanting the truth and knowledge we can also talk about the ties of former President Clinton and yes, even Mr. Obama to the nefariois wing of the CIA…..
One does not rise to the top of the political establishment in America as fast as Obama did without being connected….Chew on that one, you Jane Hamsher bashers!!!!
And if you think I am crazy for saying this, then, it’s you who does not want to know the truth and think beyond the fifth grade level.
Jane, the only thing puzzling to me about this is why Kevin Drum doesn’t get it. I’ve been reading him for a long time, and while I’ve often disagreed with him, I don’t think I can point to anything he has ever posted up ’til now and say it was stupid.
But this? Stupid.
Merry Christmas, and thank you for all you do.
Ya know, WAAAY back in ’08 a lot of moderates and conservatives were pointing and screaming “LOOK! Check the background on these guys!” and were dismissed as whining alarmists and/or racists. At least people are starting to come out of the fog of smoke, and blinking away the glare from the mirrors. Hope it isn’t too late. Getting Rove Emanuel where he belongs is a start.
Someone wrote: “ACLU is a non-partisan organization, whose sole purpose is protecting constitutional rights.”
SOME select, politically correct rights. Some things, free exercise, freedom of choice in with whom one associates, the individual right to keep and bear arms, the ACLU work doggedly to suppress.