Good thing for the tens of millions this will help that you’re irrelevant.

I sort of de-lurk annually though I’m here every day. There’s a lot to learn and absorb. Sometimes FDL moves a little fast for me, but trying to keep up is good, brainy fun.

Does that guy realize his insulting you contradicts his point?

This BILL gives Republicans the BEST OF BOTH WORLDS!

First this is a Republicans Bill.

Second Republicans get to talk about how they hate the Bill.

This is a Classic Hope A Dope,
by Rahm and the ConservDems against real Progressives.

Simply put we make people think the BILL is a true Democratic Bill, when we know it is a Republican Bill, and let Dems take the heat for it in the Mid-Term Elections

What Progressives must do is SHOUT FROM EVERY HILL SIDE that this is not a Progressive Bill.

If not Republicans will get the Best of Both Worlds!

A Bill that Insurance CEO’s Love! (how many CEOs vote progressive? NONE!)
And Dems Pissed at Obama and other phony Dems! (the idea is Republicans will take seats away from phony DEMS)

PROGRESSIVE MUST ORGANIZED!

Someone at the Daily Kos wants to go to parties at the WHite House.

Once people learn the facts about this Bill, it will be hard to stop the anger towards those who wrote this Bill

Good Luck!

Special Note, people don’t laugh much when you take their money BY FORCE!

We must get beyond the choreographed bouncing ball that is designed to divide and conquer us.

I’d wager that Americans from across the political spectrums would put aside the hot button issues, such as same sex marriage and abortion for a moment so that we could stop a crappy health bill and figure out how to cut what’s left of our democracy free of Wall Street and the unions to restore popular sovereignty.

I post rarely. I have one basic problem with the health care/insurance reform bill. There is not one U.S. law that states you must buy anything from any corporate entity. I believe that passing a law with this mandate in it will open the floodgates. It scares the bejeebers out of me.

People should know to have a thick skin when commenting here. Some other commenters love telling people they don’t agree with to STFU. If you put up with that then by all means, delurk.

There are tens of millions of people working for the insurance industry now? Well, I guess they’ll probably need that many people to process the paperwork for the millions of new captives…uh, I mean policyholders that this legislation will be giving them. And of course, I imagine denying claims is pretty labor-intensive too.

Well at least you’re not a teabagger. I can tell because you used the grammatically correct “you’re irrelevant” as opposed to “your irrelevant”.

Anyway, we’ll find out who’s irrelevant on election day.

If you are going to hurl insults, you need to back them up in the same post. Where does this health care bill help “tens of millions”? And why do you believe Jane (or her post, if that is what you meant) to be irrelevant? This is a blog of intelligent discussion and debate, and I am sure your discussion would be welcomed here.

Well, if you insist, Jane …

As a long-time FDL lurker, I’ve got to thank you, Jon Walker, and others profusely for your fight against this corporatist handout bill. Keep up the good work, and let us know how we can help! I’m sure FDL’s fundraising drives and the virtual phonebanking tool are helpful, though it would be nice to see more opportunities / events for local visibility and activism as well as the site grows.

Supporters of Obama have no standing to criticize anyone for their intelligence given how we got rolled. Appealing to grammar in an online post as an indication of someone’s intelligence or the legitimacy of their position exacerbates the problems instead of solving it.

Long time listener. First time caller.

You’ve done incredible work this year, Jane.

Kudos and keep going.

You’re almost the only person who’s been both clued-in and honest during the entire healthcare debate.

jedimsnbcko19

You do realize that ONE progressive refusing to vote for cloture would have killed this or forced a renegotiation.

It’s my opinion they should have stopped it.

Hey Splicer. STF….nevermind.

I’m a confessed Lurker Jane. When you write or speak on TV, it’s like you rip the thoughts out of my head and put them to words that make so much sense to progressives like me. I just want to thank you for that and I will try and do better with my lurking hehe.

A co-worker, who only recently became politically aware (although she is near retirement age) came to me today and said that the insurance companies have paid $200 million to lobby FOR this bill, and that the bill appears to be a terrible bill for the average person and should be shot down. If it passes, she said, “we need to revolt”. A few years ago she was a moderate Republican. Her comments make me think our elected officials need to open their eyes to the population’s opinion of this bill, that many more are against it than they realize.

And who knows…Maybe if some delurk and expose themselves to stimuli outside their own petri dish they might actually come to forgive someone who briefly transgressed against their feelings and beliefs three years ago, following up with amends within their power and a sincere apology (and if you don’t feel that such an apology was ‘sincere’ enough, you’d better consider that some may not find your outrage ‘sincere’ enough either – it’s a two way street) – and concentrate a little more outrage on those who have done it every f*cking day for those three years and more.

Know your real enemies.

;>)

We should insist that the Dems. vote down the bill if it doesn’t have a viable public option or extremely stringent regulations for private insurance. Private insurance would have to be treated as a utility and regulated as such.
2010 election? Show up and vote. Make sure the base votes. We have to be in this for the long haul and can not stay away if this battle is lost. Field and run VIABLE candidates in Blue Dog districts.
Rework, from the foundation up, messaging. Our communication sucks. Simplify. Rework the language of the message.

I usually look at the site everyday. I have posted a few times. I am very involved in local and statewide government and I am a public servant. So, I don’t donate to causes or post much. However, since the 2001-2002 budget year for our organization, the non-profit BC/BS in my state has raised rates 300% for a family plan and 250% for a two person family plan. The medical community is where the cost inflation is. Years ago the large hospitals bought up and closed all the small ones and health care inflation took off from there. While insurance companies are at fault, for profit medical care is the main driver. Doctors and staff are making astronomical sums. I know a person I went to school with that made $300,000 in one year for referals. That is a pure kickback for something that should be a doctors duty.

An anesthesiologist is making $600,000 a year at Beaumont in Detroit. I am sure the hospital covers malpractice. I see nothing in the health care bill to control these cost, only higher reimbursements for crying senators and health industry whiners. In fact, 17% inflation on our insurance rates for last year only adds to more cost. Basically insurance companies are extorting money for doctors and hospitals.

The health bill falls way short. It pulls my health care quality down, while still allowing medical inflation way beyond what should be. I look for double digit insurance rates at our renewal this year again.

Hi Jane. I am here almost every day, but mostly lurking. I retreated from commenting during the election because it wasn’t good for my blood pressure.

I am delurking to say that I applaud your efforts to make the health care bill better. Without pressure from the left, the Overton Window just keeps moving to the right. I don’t always agree with you, but your heart is in the right place, under the part of your body that has caused you to appreciate how grossly dysfunctional the health care delivery and payment system really is.

And speaking of physical attributes, I was tuned in to Hardball a few days ago in time to watch Lanny Davis’ face when you went after him for being bought and paid for. Intestinal fortitude is not in short supply either.

I hope you will keep pushing, keep analyzing, keep meeting the industry talking points with facts. I will keep donating to the Raul Grijalvas of the Congress.

Susan

Jane,

We progressives are not mis-understood, it’s just that we can’t afford to pay the price of representation, and Rahm is not afraid of us.

Since we can never match the FIRE interests ability to pay for what they want, we’re going to have to find a way to change Rahm’s mind.

We will have to demonstrate our ability to get out the vote.

Here’s my 2 cents again. I read this post on dailykos by Jed Lewison regarding Palu Krugman’s article.
Krugman: Fix the Senate, kill the filibuster

Now, this is the paragraph that really pissed me off because I thought this was in the Constitution but, it’s not according to Krugman -

“After all, Democrats won big last year, running on a platform that put health reform front and center. In any other advanced democracy this would have given them the mandate and the ability to make major changes. But the need for 60 votes to cut off Senate debate and end a filibuster — a requirement that appears nowhere in the Constitution, but is simply a self-imposed rule — turned what should have been a straightforward piece of legislating into a nail-biter. And it gave a handful of wavering senators extraordinary power to shape the bill.”

It really pisses me off that this 60 vote shit isn’t in the Constitution and instead is a self imposed rule by the Senate. Thank you Palu Krugman! I hope that we can all start putting pressure on the Senate. Perhaps a petition signed by 5 million people pledging not to vote in the 2010 elections. Now, that might not seem like much but, if you’ve got 5 million Democrats pledging not to vote in 2010 unless the rule is changed, that’s a good chunck of votes the Dems would need! We won’t have better leverage than we do right now. The Republicans broke their own record on filibusters on December 18th when they did it for the 98th time. If the public was aware that both Republicans have abused this rule and the Libermans and Nelsons have killed good legislation as a result, they might be inclined to do something about it. Hell, I wonder how many of the 200,000 people who had to wait an extra month for their unemployment extension would feel if they knew the reason for the delay was that Republicans blocked it while trying to link an ACORN amendment to that bill? I’m sure they sign that petition in a heartbeat! Think about it Jane because I don’t see that we have any chance of killing this bill.

I’ve lurked here for many months. From what I see, the left is dysfunctional. (There is no left in the US, anyway.) You’ve got to get out of the Democratic Party and stop supporting Obama. Create your own institutions. Mainstream lifestyle liberalism doesn’t work. Make common cause with Naderites and leftists like myself would be a start.

Just curious, where is the constituency for the individual mandate? What interests are clamoring for it to the extent that it survives in every incarnation of the bill?

Tens of billions? Who knew there were that many people working for the insurance and pharmaceutical industries. They’re the ones who benefit most from this bill. (And, as always, the pols who rely on these industries to bankroll their campaigns). It does nothing for the working poor. Or, for that matter, the person who wants to leave their job and start their own business. True reform has become irrelevant. Happy now?

After months of reading and appreciating the commentary on the site, I’ve finally been guilted into adding my thoughts to the mix :) I’m a passionate supporter of single-payer, but able to see the wisdom of getting a foot in the door with a strong public option. The idea of forcing people to buy inadequate policies from profit-making companies strikes me as a breathtaking leap into a kind of corporatism we’ve never seen in this country before. Strip out the mandate, and the bill does some good things, I suppose—but at this point I really think it’s been way too compromised by legislative horse-trading to ever be a good deal for the country.
NO MANDATE WITHOUT A STRONG PUBLIC OPTION!

That’s not an attack from mikefromArlington in the comment @ 1.

That’s a dismissal.

That’s the result of having helped your opponents marginalize you.

Speaking as one of your greatest admirers and as one who would have liked very much to be your ally, Jane, I’d like to say, “Well done.”

You walked right into it and helped them finish you off in far less time than I thought it would take.

Please reread my comments in Welcome, Kossaks, and your response to me, or lack thereof.

Brian

I’ve been reading here for a couple of years, but I don’t write a whole lot.

I don’t write a lot because though I have a lot of opinions and analysis, it’s hard for me to effectively organize it. Even so, here’s something I wrote in private to a prominent bloggy site last night, which I figure I should share:

…

“Why was it necessary to fracture the Democratic base rather than the powerful interests vested in resisting reform?”

Many metrics have been considered in assessint the costs and benefits of this bill to all parties affected. What’s the net effect of splitting and disheartening so many while further entrenching the power of the health insurance industry?

I was in Obama HQ on the day before the election and Grant Park as he won. I knew he had a horrible situation handed to him and a huge hole to dig himself out of. I stated early this year that if Obama got one big thing right — at that point it was health care reform which I thought would be effective for a geneartion, rather than punting problems further down the road — I would give him a pass on so much else. I have yet to see any such success, and I don’t expect a PR blitz to change my reading of the text of this bill and its amendments. I’m likely to pull the Obama stickers off my car tomorrow as I don’t want to be directly associated with this bill.

In 2007-8, I said we need “more Democrats in 2008, better Democrats in 2010.” My donations for the 2010 cycle will be to progressive primary challenges and the candidates who emerge, in the most winnable races. Imagine if Obama hadn’t alienated people like me, how much money could have been directed toward the party coffers for more united efforts?

Divided we fall, united they profit.

…

Perhaps I’ll write more from my bag of incomplete thoughts.

I left this site a few years ago, I saw Obama for what he was/is and could not read anymore here.

I have read on Riverdaughter’s site that you, Jane, are going to try to find common cause with the tea party. I think that is very wise. I was a democrat all my life, but no more, I will never vote for anyone because they belong to a certain party again.

Right now we need to put the fear of God into our politicians and, for now, the tea party is the only vehicle we have. I know, because I have called, wrote letters, joined mass call-in efforts, sent a rubber stamp to congress, joined massive letter writing efforts, signed petitions – AND NOTHING, NOTHING WORKED – THEY ARE DEAF TO US.

UNDERNEATH THEY BELONG TO THE SAME PARTY DEMOCRAT/REPUBLICAN = CORPORATE PARTY.

My friend (in Michigan) now pays $1700 per month for her (non-profit)BC/BS health insurance. Isn’t that an amazing amount of money? Yes, MONTHLY.

I love your site.

I am so sick of reading all these articles in places like Salon.com or comments by my Dem friends saying that a flawed bill is better than no bill. It’s so frustrating to see otherwise intelligent people buy the idea that there is any benefit to passing this crap and calling it a victory. I am so tired of watching the Dems say all the right things and then act like the corporate slaves they are, and caving to all kinds of special interests…

I have a few individual mandates I’d like to see…

It’s like along about the second hour of a David Lynch flick, where the surreal becomes the real. In a world where actual teevee personalities can blabber about death panels and nazism in the health care remedy, it seems quite understandable that a sliver of the population in places like Maine and Connecticut should govern health care for all of us, and maybe all other major decisions as well.

Most of the populace are not following the details. Many cannot follow any detail. The takeaway will be, like in any other ball game, who won? If there is a health care bill cum law, despite its impurities, it will be a win. If not, not.

Matters are very simple in the land of the commons. Now I’m gonna go write a diary featuring an old movie, like I do.

One other comment. I have found the different range of commenters here to be much wiser and consequently more gentle than the Kos krew, which is why I don’t go there no more. One vote for here, although my diaries are ignored – and, come to think of it, maybe that says something else about superior taste on FDL.

confessed lurker here.

i’m very grateful for all of your work Jane. I don’t think I agree with your conclusion, but I do believe you add a lot to the conversation. I am almost persuaded by Vicki Kennedy, Joe Biden and particularly Howard Dean that whatever bit more can be wrung into the Senate bill without scaring off the assholes Lieberman and Nelson will be the best expansion of healthcare that we can achieve at this time, and that it’s better than doing nothing.

All that said, thank you and keep it up. Best wishes for the holidays to all the fdl’ers.

(cross-posting from another comment thread in hope of getting more response – I just signed up and am a recent delurker)

Not trying to argue for or against the bill – I’m just trying to desperately understand.

An AP story said yesterday – “In a bow to Senate moderates, the measure lacks a government-run insurance option of the type that House Democrats placed in their bill. Instead, the estimated 26 million Americans purchasing coverage through new insurance exchanges would have the option of signing up for privately owned, nonprofit nationwide plans overseen by the same federal agency office that supervises the system used by federal employees and members of Congress.

it also states that “At its core, the legislation would create a new insurance exchange where consumers could shop for affordable coverage that complies with new federal guidelines. Most Americans would be required to purchase insurance, with subsidies available to help families making up to $88,000 in income afford the cost.”

Now, not trying to be argumentative in the least, but how is this a bad thing? I’m a freelancer who makes around 20 grand a year – I have zero health insurance now. When I read the above, it sounds like I’ll be eligible for a subsidy to purchase a non-profit plan (thereby providing me with insurance and not making health a “for-profit” matter)

This sounds like a good thing.

Am I wrong? Please educate the naive.

I lurk because I will not participate in the hate diatribe that go on here. I sign petitions and actively pursue the great ideas that Jane Hamsher presents. I voted for Cynthia McKinney because she has the courage of her convictions and I will not develop a thick skin because it prevents me from hearing the opposite views.
Thank you

It is with deep regret that I have painfully arrived at the following conclusion…although it was suggested to me by a schismic inconsistency between rhetoric and performance in the Fall of 2008. In spite of my newly-raised doubts, I voted for him in both the Primary and General elections.

But first the conclusion: OBAMA IS A TRAITOR AND A DANGER TO THE AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE!!!!! Almost without exception, the pronouncements he made as a candidate have been the diametric opposite of positions he has taken as our president (omission of the capital “P” in “president” is intended because he currently stands in the “Hall of Shame” with fellow “honorees” like Bush II, Bush I, Nixon and Reagan, rather than those who have TRULY “served and defended” like Roosevelt (both Teddy and Franklin), Kennedy, Lincoln and Washington.

I have lived in, defended and worked tirelessly to improve this country for 84 (soon to be 85) years. I have given it my love, my allegiance and my best efforts. In the course of those endeavors I have been instrumental in raising nearly one hundred MILLION dollars for community betterment and in developing a flow of money to states for human services totalling many billions of dollars (including over two BILLION dollars for Indiana, wherein I toiled at the time.)

Quite simply, Obama has LIED to us about almost everything he ever talked about.

I first became aware of his “inconsistencies” when (as a Democratic candidate) he “promised”, not only to oppose, but to FILIBUSTER a vicious and vile bill to give “RETRO-ACTOVE immunity” to telecom companies who had clearly VIOLATED our nation’s laws and its Constitution by illegally spying on American citizens. This was made even more heinous by the fact that such surveillance could easily have been given legal “blessing” by the FISA” court which existed for EXACTLY this kind of situation. But the Bush administration preferred to VIOLATE the law…and to VIOLATE the rights of the American people rather than to “submit’ to the rule of law. Obama effectually ENDORSED Bush’s illegalities and was CLEARLY on the wrong side of this issue.

But…because I wanted so badly to believe in his rhetoric (after eight horrendous years of Bush Fascism), I decided to give him a “pass”. That was my first….AND LAST…mistake.

Since then, he has been the worst “WHORE” I have EVER (in my 84 years) seen (at least since “Tail-gunner Joe McCarthy”!!!!

He is not to be believed!! He is not to be respected!!! He is a “pariah” of the worst kind…..and…..given sufficient time……HE WILL DESTROY AMERICA !!!!!!!

It’s openly obvious that anyone paying attention to the healthcare debate realizes that the corporations have delivered again via their “bought” politicians. Healthcare stocks up 10% yesterday and 4% today. Oh yeah– we beat back the healthcare industry running against our legislation–please.
When will we ever fully realize the kabuki that both parties play to keep the same agenda? Kill this bill!

My guess is that the democratic establishment would like nothing more than to marginalize FDL and DKos, and any other real progressive voices.

You guys are a threat to the establishments ability to control the message. I’m glad you guys are strong and vocal!

This is a great moment to be a liberal/progressive. A lot of people felt that this whole health care reform business was a losing proposition from the git. (By a lot of people, I mean a lot of relatively disconnected, cynical American citizens, not us crazy blogger types) Well, they’ve been proven right.

This is not the bill progressives have been fighting for. We should just disown it. And while doing so, we should reach out to all those regular folks and explain what we were fighting for. It’s a classic teaching moment for us.

I’m with you, RoyalOak.

If you’re someone who reads our posts, but doesn’t generally join in the back-and-forth, we want to hear from you today.

I have an account, I just hate allowing cookies in my browser.

People have very different opinions about what should happen with health care reform — at FDL, we’re working to kill the Senate bill, while the top-rated diary at Kos is “Thank you Senator Reid, Senate leadership, and Staff.”

I’m not up for killing the bill. Roughly, given the situation with Obama, he appears to be opting to be governing (both ideologically and stylistically) as the Elder George Bush. I don’t mean that as hyperbole – I just saw someone who supports the bill point out that the bill is essentially the old school ‘reasonable Republican’ of last decade.

Unfortunately, the United States of America is in such bad shape on so many other fronts (the economy, the legal system, our ever-growing survelliance & police state, military management, or rather mismanagement, and so on) that going for the party split on this basis seems a little early. I can understand why people want to support the bill. I can absolutely understand why a mandate paid to officially-established cartel is bad & wrong and evil.

Question is, is how do we squeeze as much as usefully possible out of this party we are stuck with (or can we squeeze anything at all?), without handing the entire thing to the R’s? The mandate section appears not to go into effect until 2014, which I take to mean the administration knows this is a stinker and they don’t want to run on it until Obama is reelected and the Republicans would possibly carry Congress anyways. Seems laughably optimistic, but they certainly seem to have that down at the WH. My strong suspicion is that the bill, if passed, simply will not survive. A universe in which the bill goes into effect in 2014 is a universe so screwed up that we must of lost everything else anyways.

So, not so much wanting to hit the non-politician bill supporters I like with the friendly fire. Would like to hang onto the left-wing politicians (aka, ‘actual Democrats’), ditch the right-wing politicians. So, right at the moment, would much prefer to give the ‘centrists’ enough rope to hang themselves with.

Seems like we are almost, but not quite, there. What new outrage shall we be gifted with in January?

Am very pleased with agitating for a decent bill though; you’ve been on the side of the angels.

max
['I mean besides bailouts and Patriot Act expansions?']

Yep, stop by to read rarely comment. This bill is bad and any one believing this a starter bill and they will repair it later is dreaming. O standing on the side lines with raul have gotten what they wanted all long, welfare for the health industry and not for the people of this nation. If we can stop all of the wars and pull back on FWOT (Thanks Jim)then health care is cheap. Just think the P just recieved 680B to kill people wouldn’t be cheaper and maybe make some friends if we provided what Cuba does doctors, nurse, and teachers. I can dream, thanks Jane for your hard work and everyone elses that writes at this blog.
jo6pac

Those of us old enough to remember the Clintons’ attempt at health insurance reform are I think a little more chary of killing this bill, however bad it is.

The Clinton attempt ended in failure, and emboldened the Republicans, leading to Newt Gingrich and the Right-wing masturbation fest that was the Impeachment.

I don’t like what this bill has become, and I’ve been profoundly disappointed by Obama, but I’m also not interested in spending the next three or seven years watching the Republicans setting the agenda and calling the shots in D.C. As disappointed as I am with Obama, this health care bill was HIS initiative, and not a Republican plan. I’d rather the Democrats and the Obama administration set the agenda.

Killing this bill could emasculate the Obama administration and effectively end the initiation of new agenda items by the Democrats (who would instead only initiate ideas which had been pre-approved by the Republicans). I don’t think Democrats=Good, Republicans=Bad, but I do think that Democratic ideas are likely to be better for the nation than Republican ideas, which only serve extranational corporate interests.

Kill the bill? I’d be fine with that, but not if its failure dooms America to seven more years of purely corporatist rule.

It’s good to have diversity of opinion and healthy debate.

then please, please consider welcoming back the people who have been banned or bullied into leaving for nothing more than disagreeing (and from a progressive pov to boot) on health care reform policy and politics.

Jane, your writing has helped to get me interested in the garbage factory we call a government again. Keep it up, I will keep reading.

I’m at work, so can’t write much. Thank you for standing with Dean (and the folks I most admire at OpenLeft, where I’m more frequent) in calling for true progressive strength and movement building. Kill the Senate version of the health care bill.

We can expect nothing progressive from this administration until we make it clear that our satisfaction is essential to their governance. And they won’t see that until we threaten them. We also need to make sure it’s clear that our route is better than the Republican one (though if they think like that… they may be unsalvageable). Thank you Jane, Jon, and the rest for your providing me with an online community where I feel like less of a crazy person.

I’m always confused when I hear people say they won’t vote for anyone in a politicaly party. I’m sure presidents Nader, Perot and Paul will be thrilled. Sadly, we’ve only got 2 parties so, good luck with that! By the way, this is off topic but, could someone tell me why many of the people showing up at Townhalls with guns admitted being Ron Paul supporter? Actually, never mind. I just answered my own question.

I am a quiet man. I quite often go days without speaking.

I rarely comment because someone has usually stated my position more eloquently than I would have.

Happy Solstice everyone!

I have learned from experience that it is often better (though perhaps heartbreaking at times) to let a broken system fail. At least then all the on lookers will realize that something is actualy broken and needs to be repaired.

This bill is not what I expected from the Dems. I do believe though that it represents a starting postition for the future. Hopefully, the Dems will keep majorities in both houses of Congress next election and maybe the bill can be improved then. We all knew that once the Conservative Dems (Nelson, Lincoln, Landrieu) all stated that they wouldn’t vote for the bill without certain “DEALS” we would lose a major piece in this legislation, that being, the PUBLIC OPTION. Then our good buddy Lieberman took out even more like the Medicare buy-in. I think the Progressive point of view was dead once the Senate got it’s mits on it!! I just got news that my United Healthcare Plan at my place of employment went up 13%. We need to vote more Progressives in and make them promise that they will support the Democratic platform if and when they are elected. My money is going to Progressives this time around.

I lurked for a while before I finally joined just last week. And as comment threads for political blogs go, this site is actually better than most in terms of trolling and fights and negative energy. I usually don’t agree with everything, but everyone is pretty civil most of the time. I consider myself a far right progressive (I support maximum civil liberties- gay rights, decriminalizing drugs, universal health care, and I oppose foreign intervention and the myth of hegemony. The only major thing I differ with far left progressives on is that I’m not an economic Marxist. Other than that, we actually have most things in common), and I appreciate the discussion here. Good site, and welcome to those who are just joining.

This takes a lot of balls, but I encourage everyone when this huge steaming pile of dog turds bill passes in conference is to do 2 things. If our corrupt politicians will not vote in our interests we have to. The only way we can vote is this:

1. CANCEL YOUR INSURANCE WITH YOUR HELLTH INSURANCE PROVIDER
2. REFUSE TO PURCHASE INSURANCE THROUGH THIS CORPORATE WELFARE MANDATE

It’s harsh, but it’s all we have at this point.

knox, as someone replied to you yesterday, we’re all in it togather. Please, step back from this for a moment because your assessment of the situation appears grossly inacurate and overblown (jane’s far from finished, in fact I believe she’s barely started. You can re-light your cigarette, raise your head from your lap’ – we are not going down.

thank you so much for the welcome. Please kill this bill, the ‘highlight sheet’ Reid put out says children will not be denied for preex immediately. What about adults?

so we will pay taxes, penalties, have a mandate no P.O. immediately, no national exchange, and still be preexed but no rx reimportation?

the bill should die

and IMO we will have no DEM majority for a generation if they ram this through

I hate to tell you this but, America was destroyed over the last 8 years. Where have you been? While I’m angry that he didn’t appear to fight harder, I realize that he doesn’t write legislation. He signs it into law. No, I’m not letting the Dems off without blame. They knew Obama campaigned on a public option. It seems to me that the Senators caved and removed it for the Libermans and Nelsons and Lincolns. Once these duplicitous Senators threatened not to vote for the bill with the public option, Reid had no choice but to remove it and the Medicare buy in. We should be fighting right now to get rid of this 60 vote garbage.

I have been noticing a spate of posts and comments on other blogs attacking you personally, using the characteristic ad hominem assertions and loaded adjectives common to people who are angry but who really don’t have anything convincing to say.

Usually this is in right-wingnut stuff, so I have been surprised to see it in lefty places.

I have been wondering if this is something that is being orchestrated by a lobbyist group or some Obama/Democratic party courtiers who want to discredit Jane Hampshire as a person or political influence.

Maybe some old rival from Hollywood? This is sort of tabloid, E Entertainment style gossip bitchiness.

This Seante health care bill is a piece of shit, it is corporate welfare to health insurance company, this is what the white house wanted all along.

BTW, I think Jane is smart AND sexy. An intoxicating combination. :)

The more people attack Jane’s relevance, the more they confirm it.
Nobody attacks MY relevance because it is unquestionably zero.

Hi Jane. Thank you for your kind words last night about my diaries. Here’s a little something for you.

The only starting position for the future is to remove the non productive middle man and either reduce costs by equal amounts, orapply the savings to better care. Same goes for Pharma.

How was an entire debate that OUGHT TO HAVE BEEN only about health CARE, turned into a debate solely about health INSURANCE – with a mandate that everyone buy it, to boot?

What everyone needs is care, when they need it.

What no one needs is insurance, provided care is available when the need arises.

The amount of money that would be retained and re-purposed by abolishing the insurance sector ENTIRELY more than pays for the CARE that Americans need.

Over the last decade, I’ve personally paid over $40,000 to Blue Cross for insurance I have literally never used, because my deductible is never hit.

Is there not a better use for money presently spent on insurance, like, for example, care?

Probably not. :-)

Two words: Auto insurance.

you expend an awful lot of energy and keystrokes over at that other blog on someone so “irrelevant”

oh I see, just a school boy’s syncophantic ramblings in hopes of currying favor with a female commenter. zomg!, she responded to you, she really, really responded to you ! I’m sure she’ll enjoy your tale of bravely wading in to the hard left and running off like a 4th grader

Oh, I wouldn’t be surprised if the oppo diggers they won’t use against Republicans have been turned loose on Jane.

Well, I’m not going to trash Jane. She’s done a great deal to help us all. I just don’t think we have enough time to kill this bill and we sure as hell don’t have any of the progressvies in congress standing up and saying no. I just hope that Jane will take up the “Kill The Filibuster” rule. We could organize and Jane could get these signatures to Harkin ASAP!
Come on Jane! Let’s do it!

I am ashamed of the Democratic party! After being under assault since Rumsfield, Chaney, Poppy Bush and their shill Ronny Regan took power by conspiring with a foreign govt. to hold American hostages until after election inorder to prove incompetency of the current administration. This left us with the nightmare that the citizens of the US have been living with since. This last election allowed the Democrats to assume power by creating hope within people for change. Once the pink cloud dissipated reality became visible and the only change was the routing numbers on the deposit slips. My disappointmen comes from the fact that this may be our last chance, don’t blow it by being a one term sensation. I am DAV with single payer healthcare. I bitch about it, but truth is I would be dead now if it wasn’t for it. Peace to all, if you don’t like my posts….sinloi

To rephrase what I wrote upthread.

This has an eerie resemblance to that scene in Fahrenheit 9/11 where the motion to challenge the 2000 election results died in the senate for lack of a single senator supporting it.

The lines are drawn so tight with this filibuster rule that it takes only one progressive senator to derail it. Even though the opportunity was missed early this morning, there will be a second chance when the reconciled bill is considered.

I’m still here.

I don’t comment much anymore but I do try and keep up with what is going on.

I have been here many years now and FDL will always be home.

This place rocks and Jane is my hero.
Love, Busted.

No offense to Jane or any of the other lib-bloggers–but I don’t really think the Dem party establishment or the US gov’t fears the blogosphere. In fact, you folks are just being subsumed into the collective. You don’t pose a threat at all, in fact. They view you folks as a curiosity, but certainly don’t fear you

I don’t generally post. Posting interferes with the time I spend trying to make a living.
I cannot help but feel overwhelming disappointment by the course of events. I certainly do not want to aid and abet the Republicans or teabaggers whatsoever. I certainly do not want to say kill the bill so that they can benefit.
But I have become convinced that the Senate legislation is not reform or historic and does not accomplish the task of bringing affordable, health care (not insurance) to any new customers. I never bought into the post- partisan, hopey, changey, mantra. But even given the fact that I never had much faith in Obama he has totally destroyed any benefit of the doubt I would be willing to give him at this point. I am floored as a liberal Democrat that a Democratic President would make a behind the door deal with Pharma in exchange for campaign brochures (I’ve seen it in the 8th district of Florida, done for the benefit of Alan Grayson. ) The deal and the secrecy cloaking the deal from the American public still boggles my mind. And Harry Reid taking reconciliation off the table was ludicrous considering the long line of corporate Democrats with their hands held out for their deal while denying a deal to the rest of the country.
I’ve walked my neighborhoods and others for thirty one years on behalf of Democrats and their causes. But I am flummoxed as to which way to proceed now. Certainly no Democrat named Reid, Landrieu, Nelson, Conrad, and Baucus
or anyone in their mold would garner my support ever again. But where were Feingold, Brown, Schummer, Cantwell, Klobuchar, Rockefeller? Any one of them or a block of them could have stopped the stripping of the public option but they remained silent. This has been a devastating process for the Democratic party and for active followers. The Senate bill is by no means a win for us or the country. Thank god the holidays provide an excuse for heavy drinking. We all need one now.

Hi. I’m an independent who has been very active in a local single payer group. That is how I found my way here.

I know that many Dems are going through the grieving process, and I think it’s healthy if they stick around at “anger” for awhile. But to the extent that you further the process of folks identifying with the issues and not the party, I applaud and applaud FDL, because we need to move on to action.

People in my neck of the woods are trying to start a third party coalition. It’s going to be tough, but I refer them here when I can.

We ask for transparency in our gov’t and you can’t get more transparent than the corruption on display by the corporate duopoly now ensconced in the DC bubble.

Thanks for all your work, all, and especially Jane. You and Laura F. make me proud to be a woman!

The House needs to realize its institutional pride. If Nancy Pelosi allows herself to get rolled with this awful Senate bill, then the fix is in. But if she appoints liberals to the conference committee, we may still be having this argument when the cherry blossoms bloom in DeeCee.

Kill the Senate bill.

And welcome to all the de-lurkers!

riesz at 9

why do you assume tea aprty people are unintelligent or uneducated?

you are sterotyping us and doing a bad job of it

I get typos from a visual disability but I assure you I ame ducted and quite intelligent

the tea party in Phoenix on 4/15 was about the SPENDING….the stimulus was full of giveaways….

I think we have more in common as progressives, and moderates than the people foolishly supporting Obama and his crew right now. That group is all about crony capitalism.

why no real fix for housing? health care?

no money in it thats why

I read Firedoglake daily and most of my reason for lurking is because I find so many intelligent and thoughtful comments on Firedoglake that I seldom feel I can add anything substantive to the dialog.

I comment rarely but I want to tell you, Darkblack, that you are a treasure on the web. I stop by your site when I need some good music, lots of great Photoshop work, and amazing wit. Thanks Firedoglake and Darkblack! I recommend your sites often.

I am wondering if it is time for a “Labor Party” or something. I am of the opinion that our system of government is too badly broken and beyond the tipping point to fix from within. I am very disappointed in our administration right now.

There are two or three more cloture votes before final passage is scheduled for 7pm Xmas Eve. Several opportunities exist to kill the Senate bill.

OK, I’m in.

I think this bill would have been WAY better if the WH had shown some leadership. The bobbing, weaving, and posturing have been well-nigh intolerable. But given where we are, the bill will be only as good as the WH is willing to fight for, no better.

And, given the box the Dems have built around themselves, their best option, politically, is to pass this mess and work very hard to convince voters in ’10 that they should be returned to power. Taking it down now will give the Goopers just too big of a propaganda victory.

Going forward, modifying the filibuster rule to allow the bar to be set lower on each successive cloture vote, is a MUST. Failing that, what Krugman says (you know what it is; I’m too lazy to link).

One more thing. Stupak’s a deal-breaker. I’m not crazy about the Nelson leave-it-to-the-states concept, but at least it makes it possible for those of us who live in the less-benighted parts of the country to salvage a little pride and maybe stick it to the bishops.

Like an earlier poster:
“I sort of de-lurk annually though I’m here every day. There’s a lot to learn and absorb.”
I’m learning as I go, hopefully in the right direction.
Thanks FDL for inviting ALL TO JOIN IN.

I reject the Senate bill for three simple reasons. IMO what little good the bill does is overwhelmed by the harm it does.

1. Restrictions on funding of abortions, which is nothing more than a ruse to set up challenges to Roe v Wade. I will never support legislation that lessens women’s reproductive rights, never. A stand alone deal breaker for me.

2. No public option, not even a whisper. Another stand alone deal breaker.

3. Mandates, no matter that some of the language in the bill prohibits fines to be enforced. This is corporatism at best. Deal breaker.

Unless and until these provisions are no longer in any bill coming out of Congress my support stays at home, regardless of arguments of how the bill helps some, repeat some, people.

If we got the filibuster rule changed, it would make people like Nelson and Lieberman irrelevant. We could finally get stuff done and we wouldn’t have to listen to this minority of idiots in our party!

Welcome De Lurkers -

Busted, Albatross, Susan from Iowa, and all other long timers – great to see you here !

Thanks for all you do Jane. You have singlehandedly kept my hope for progressive change alive.

I get so tired of my fellow progressives who have lost confidence in our message and think the only way to bring about progressive change is to work within the current corrupt system. As Obama’s win shows, and as Howard Dean adeptly continues to illustrate, the American public want a progressive president and a progressive legislature. We are the top dogs but we’re acting like beaten up pound puppies.

The senate bill sucks and the fact that huge portions of the progressive community are trying to call this a win is ridiculous. I love firedoglake because the people here have backbones and are willing to fight for their core beliefs.

If we want real progressive change in America, then we have to be willing to withhold our votes, to criticize our leaders, and to look outside the box to find common ground with those who share our goals.

This mindset that if we fight for our ideals against the wishes of the establishment we are somehow hurting the Democratic party is ridiculous. We don’t currently have a Democratic party but only a loose coalition of all the people kicked out of the Republican party. If you want real progressive change, then don’t vote for your current representative and let them know why. If people start losing elections because they couldn’t hold their progressive base, then more politicians will become progressive out of necessity. It is only because we keep voting for the corporate thugs, out of fear of Republican rule, that we maintain the status quo.

Stop enabling the Democrats and start fighting for your core beliefs. It is time for Progressive Democrats to embrace losing our majority if all that majority brings is more Republican legislation that hurts our cause. It is time to get rid of the old boys network and bring in some representation that isn’t geriatric. It may take a decade or more to restore our party to one that embraces the Democratic platform but it will be well worth the wait. We must think long-term if we really want to fix this broken system and we must be willing to get rid of the Dems in name only.

I’m an ancient lurker. Although I’m always at FDL, I haven’t posted in years, not since I helped canvas for Lamont in my hometown when he ran against Lieberman.

I’m totally on-board with you all about this atrocity of a bill. My gut tells me that it will hurt more than it will help. I hope someone proves us wrong, but I don’t think that will happen.

I’m just confused as to next steps for me.
I don’t like the way the bill turned out. I can’t believe President Obama hasn’t taken the head of Senator Nelson in public, but I also don’t want a Democratic defeat and watch the pundits and the Republicans in Congress dance on Health Care Reform’s grave.

No. My assessment of the situation is spot on.

Would you like to see a real attack from last Friday (before the marginalization of Jane) and an appropriate response to it?

See Firedoglake Attacked, Again, and my comments in the thread.

I quit smoking a long time ago. But worry not, I’m returning to what I was doing before I came here.

I wish Jane all the best, as her positions on the issues are absolutely correct. But I’m not interested in working my ass off, being blown off, and watching failure be heaped on failure.

If that were true then, who pressured Reid to include a public option in the bill? And why did Reid even put a Medicare buy in into the bill? Again, I know they were removed but, I seriously doubt he did these things out of the kindness of his heart!

Then that’s THEIR profound error. The blogosphere makes active political participants out of people who would otherwise be isolated in their homes or at work – like me! That alone makes it a threat to establishment politics. Everytime I phone Congress because of something I read on here, that makes a difference. Moreso when I forward it via Twitter or Facebook. That the Beltway insiders would fail to grasp this threat does not surprise me – denialism and the entitlement of power is endemic to their culture. But that just means that one of these days they’re going to be completely blindsided by a political movement that anyone less arrogant would have seen coming a mile off.

Not exactly a lurker – I have been known to comment from time to time…
Essentially, I see the entire problem as being systemic:
The model where employers pay for profit 3rd parties to provide the mini,al amount of health care required to be competitive in a local market is so fundamentally flawed that patchwork repairs will only create new niches for entrepreneurial exploitation.
I have no philosophical problem with entrepreneurs in an open market, but health care in no way resembles an open market.
Nor can the current system be tweaked to behave as one.
So, the options , as I see it are:
Ban employer-based coverage and make insurance companies compete in an actual market environment or go to single-payer.
Any other solutions are fundamentally flawed.
To those who think that government bureaucracy is too inefficient, take a look at insurance companies. I cut my IT teeth in insurance claims systems, and understand the culture very well – there are noefficiencies there. At least at a Federal level, anti-competitive price-fixing with providers would be criminal; in the insurance industry it is standard operating procedure.
I understand and sympathize with the sentiment that government is inefficient, but there are few if any working models of privatization of the common good without truly rigorous regulation. And this country has more of a problem with regulation than with providing service (IMHO).
My problem is that there are only a handful of politicians with anything approaching the guts to oppose the insurance/pharma/major medical system complex. And that complex is extraordinarily well funded.

I agree. All the ad hominem between former allies is sickening (and even Nate Silver seems to be participating, which is disappointing), and largely it seems to be coming from the more pro-Establishment, centrist Democrats. We progressives are inclined to suspect that the centrists are simply corporate sheep, or they are addicted to the tantalizing drug of gradualism; whereas the centrists accuse us of being unrealistic or traitorous, since our tactical missteps are supposedly ensuring the Right’s victory. In either case, it’s better to focus on the issues, rather than individual agendas.

We liberals tend to prefer debate and deliberation to authoritarian obedience (which is both our advantage and our demise!), but how can we ensure enough solidarity so that we don’t question each other’s motivations or intellect? The debate is healthy, but the personal attacks create rifts that are more difficult to heal.

In deciding where to come out on “kill the bill,” it may help to do two things.

First, try and remember your reaction to Al Gore’s 12/13/00 concession speech. Second, ask if you ever second-guessed that response, and if so, when and why.

The gut check may not settle the issue, but it’s one way to clear cobwebs.

Or, maybe there are dumb people on both sides of the political aisle who like attacking people personally. I have found that is probably more the case.

The so called “health bill” shows how worthless it is to spend all our energy and hard earned cash to get Democrats in office. It also shows the little influence women have on the Democrats, despite being a reliable voting constituency. I can’t say I am surprised as the Democrats have been suffering from “Corporate Spineless Syndrome” for decades.
FDL is not playing nice and sucking up and waiting for another decade, I mean day. Another stupid women who does not understand how the “game” is played. Kudos Jane for taking their criticisms and throwing it back.
I am part of a Peace and Justice group in a small town and we have allied for years with our local Libertarians on causes we hold in common. They opposed the war on terror, the “Patriot Act” and other assaults against civil liberties. Where we agree we work together, where we disagree, we try and be civil and educate each other. We don’t agree about guns, the role of government, oddly many are even anti-choice,(I say “oddly” but realize it is old fashioned misogyny), but they have been at our weekly anti-war protests for years.
I lurk mostly because I am too busy scratching out a living in this wretched economy to have time to post much. There are so many like Jane, Ian Welsh, and others that are more eloquent in saying what I feel. Thanks to all of you.

Thanks for the love cbl2!

Everytime there is meaningful legislation that will not enrich everyday folk but help them, assist them, make there lives manageable, we are put on this emotional rollercoaster. Will it pass? or won’t it pass. We are held hostage by individual politicians that have been bribed, yes I said it bribed buy special interest groups to keep the status quo. The HC lobby spent $350 million to keep things the way they are. One of the very many promises this prez made was to keep lobbyist out of the white house in so many ways he is more disappointing than Bush and I did not like Bush!

There is state law. In California, if I have a car, I have to buy car insurance. I am against the mandate without a public option, but am not sure just the fact we would be forced to give money to corporations is our best talking point.

simply put: don’t vote above the local level in ’10 and ’12 – it is the only leverage we have. Right now, there are only 2 types of Dems – sell outs and enablers – a pox on them all

OK, I’m de-lurking again to say that I have missed you. I read daily and I noticed that you don’t comment nearly as much as you used to. I also miss Looseheadprop and I haven’t seen Punaise lately and miss his/her comments too. Thanks Busted.

I don’t know. I don’t see any movement whatsoever. The blogosphere is an appendage to the Dem Party. Yes, they throw a bone once in a while–but what have the bloggers really accomplished? The critique needs to come wholly outside the Dem Party. That means, we need to ignore the parties and create our own movement. Ignore Obama and the corporatists. Appeal to regular people.

Visit site daily, usually more than once. It is one of two favorites. Total lurker, this is my first comment. Follow the HCR debate closely, and my vision aligns with those at this site, including Jane. I am stunned at how much of a corporate insurance industry give away the current senate bill is, and thought I voted for people who would make a difference this time. However, I wonder if the insurance and pharmaceutical industry were 100% against HCR from the beginning, whether it would have had a chance.

Thus, i think if this is all the senate can get, it should be voted for in the affirmative. I hope we hold their feet to the fire every day if it passes, and that it needs to be cleaned up, and that new legislation reforming the insurance and pharmaceutical industry must be passed to control overall HC costs and premiums and co-pays for the individual. If that doesn’t happen, I think trying to elect single payer advocates in liberal districts is a must. Mostly though, the president must emphasize these points in his re-election bid (although many reforms will not have been implemented by then). When (or if) this legislation passes, it must not be the end for us, just the beginning.

I’m de-luking. I read this site every single day over my morning coffee and my evening tea.

And I am so with you.

I checked out your argument with habmed and still don’t get what your big point is to cause such heartburn, Knox.

What’s your disagreement. what do you think Jane is not seeing, why do you think she’s marginalizing herself?
could you do it in a few easy bullet points, just to get an idea?

Agree. And welcome to you and to all y’all.

Politics driven by the cooties of your opponents fails: “if this bill goes down it just empowers the right wing.”

If this bill goes down, it might ensure that the Democrat base is not as demoralized in November as it should be given this steaming pile of turds we’re expected to be thankful for.

There is no left in America, there are no Naderites.

I read FireDogLake for two reasons. First, it is an excellent source of accurate information and occasionally-sophisticated analysis. Second, I think it is important to expose yourself to alternative points of view. I am not a progressive, I do not find altruism or justice particularly compelling motivations. However, too many Americans only expose themselves to media and arguments that support their predetermined conclusions. Rather than hole myself up in an echo chamber and read only the Volokh Consipracy or the Wall Street Journal, I come here to make sure that my beliefs are continously questioned. I find FireDogLake to be an excellent source of well-articulated progressive arguments. Reading it keeps me well rounded and helps me refine my own beliefs. I don’t intend to become a regular commenter, I think I’d be accused, perhaps accurately, of being a troll, but I will definitely continue readng.

I have more than one problem with the bill, but I have to agree this is my biggest problem. To pass a law saying that we MUST buy from the corporate entity not only scares me it angers me. The corporate entities are the source of our current economic problems and they have no loyalty to people or the country.

Kos is just too winky wonky to follow for me… so I’ve never hung out there and read a lot… it’s bookmarked and I check in twice a week.

I only started coming here from seeing Jane on MSNBC and subscribing on youtube to FDL…. I get relevant stuff on this medical/insurance topic quicker than I can access it on the Cable Channel’s websites. I don’t own a TV.

You linked to Kos but they wouldn’t link to you, I noticed. I checked it out and I have to say, the criticisms are hyperbolic and void of substance. It reminds me of the highly partisan Green hate/enemies list, after the Gore defeat. They still won’t let go. I remember the “moonbeaming” of Jerry Brown, and the “deanscreaming” of Howard Dean. I remember them resurrecting and re-assassinating JFK for decades in the same manner. These people are yellow pressers, GOP lite types that simply have NO scruples. They will say anything.

But above all I remember defending Bill Clinton with flame throwers from the absurd Republican Party and extreme right wing. He screwed us all. He issued the Coups d Gras that Reagan only wished he had, with NAFTA and these WTO agreements. While we got his back (we thought) Clinton partnered with the GOP to destroy labor, our manufacturing base, creating a huge trade imbalance. He oversaw a War that we still do not have the facts about but they told us it was all about human rights and stopping genocide. He pulled off deregulation of the financial industry and set us up, frankly, for everything that happened under the Bush Junta, a one two punch. Obama is finishing up what HRC started… forcing us to pay into private health insurance and HMOs that make a living killing people, and stealing.

While I supported Obama in the primaries, and my conservative and Clintonista brethren accused me of “drinking the kool aid,” (a particularly heinous and thoughtless attack), I vowed, NEVER AGAIN.

Never again will I let the screeching meemies on the right distract me from confronting a Democratic president, when he pushes a corporatist agenda, with a lot of high sounding, flowery, fluffy, liberal rhetoric.

I have to ask, “Who’s the closed minded ideologue and partisan in this situation.” And I can say forcefully, it ain’t Jane Hamsher.

I signed on a few weeks ago but have been a big fan of emptywheel for nearly a year now. New to Jon Walker and DDay and like them too.

Im planning to 86 the Dem Party and re-register as Independent. Prefer to wait for the opportune moment. Would love to see people do that en masse.

Speaking as someone who doesn’t have a lot of respect for the Democratic Party, I don’t agree that “the blogosphere is an appendage of the Dem Party.” Is LGF an appendage of the Democratic Party? Town Hall? Matt Drudge?

Honestly, I would be quite heartened to learn that the blogosphere had been organized by the Democrats. It would demonstrate an organizational and communication capability that they sorely lack.

And while I agree that we need more movement politics, there’s no way to “ignore” the Republicans and Democrats. Short of all-out revolution and collapse of the political system, nothing will remove those two parties from the political landscape. They write and maintain too many of the rules regarding how D.C. works. I don’t say that’s right or proper – I think it’s wrong – but that’s how it is. Given that the two party system is not going away anytime soon, one must instead learn how to accomplish things with the system that exists. One way is to take over the Democratic party with real progressives, and that involves a lot of organization and coordination, and THAT involves the Blogosphere and the Internet.

Jane,

Regarding your point about the most popular diary at DailyKos: “Thank you Senator Reid, Senate leadership, and Staff.” That’s because DailyKos defines the purpose of their site this way:

This is a Democratic blog, a partisan blog. One that recognizes that Democrats run from left to right on the ideological spectrum, and yet we’re all still in this fight together. We happily embrace centrists like NDN’s Simon Rosenberg and Howard Dean, conservatives like Martin Frost and Brad Carson, and liberals like John Kerry and Barack Obama. Liberal? Yeah, we’re around here and we’re proud. But it’s not a liberal blog. It’s a Democratic blog with one goal in mind: electoral victory. And since we haven’t gotten any of that from the current crew, we’re one more thing: a reform blog. The battle for the party is not an ideological battle. It’s one between establishment and anti-establishment factions. And as I’ve said a million times, the status quo is untenable

Now granted, Kos frequently goes on national television and blogs strong criticism directed at Democrats. But there is this sense over there that you MUST eventually walk the ‘party line‘.

Which is precisely why I love firedoglake, and don’t post at DailyKos. The second you begin to talk about punishing Democrats by voting against them, or raising money against them, they will down vote your posts into oblivion. And they will refer you back to their ‘purpose’ defined above.

I’m too independent minded to walk within those arbitrary confines. So anyways, that’ why seeing a diary over there thanking Reid for this disastrous giveaway to insurance companies is really not surprising to me.

Thank God for firedoglake.

but, I seriously doubt he did these things out of the kindness of his heart!

I vote, um, no :D

Poking my head above ground now. Yikes! I’m still not ready.

I guess what I’m advocating–and I’ve posted enough and don’t want to hijack the thread–is hardcore economic populism. Clintonian/Obamite neoliberal triangulation is fascism in the end. The Dems are a party of lifestyle, social liberals and fiscal right wingers. Although Obama is pretty right wing culturally. Regular people like economic populism, if it’s presented to them in a creative way. The mainstream liberals fear economic populism.

I’ve posted here a few times.
I couldn’t agree more with the opinion that Obama and the Senate have passed an , terrible bill.
We progressives and independents must be willing to sit home or vote for a third party come 2010 and 2012. I see no other way to make those who have been beholden to corporate interests at the expense of the interests of main street to understand that there is a price to pay for betrayal.
Steve

I wrote this several weeks ago; its posted on the PNHP blog but I’m adding it here because, now, even more so than when I wrote it, this legislation’s reforms are invisible!

The Emperor’s New Clothes

In the Hans Christian Anderson fairy tale, The Emperor’s New Clothes, two weavers promise an Emperor a new suit of clothes invisible to those unfit for their positions or incompetent. When the Emperor parades before his subjects in his new clothes, they all pretend they see the new finery, fearing exposure as the incompetents that they are. It takes a child to cry out, “But he isn’t wearing anything at all!”

As the Democratic party races to claim a “health insurance reform” victory before the Christmas recess, I am reminded of this cautionary tale.

In place of the invisible clothes, we have the invisible reforms. In place of the weavers, we have the lobbyists. In place of the loyal subjects, we have the members of the Progressive Caucus. And in place of the child, we have all the Single Payer Advocates. Please, President Obama, DON’T be that Emperor.

Carol A. Paris, MD
Member, Physicians for a National Health Program

This is a very good idea. Kill the Filibuster rule of requiring 60 votes.

Thank you. Good point! But isn’t auto insurance state mandated versus federally mandated? And you cannot license a car (supposedly) without it, but they won’t take money from you (via the IRS) if you don’t have it…

Oops. I need to check my work better.

I hope you realize that the way this is going we are going to see a Rep House lead by Michelle Bachman and a Senate with deMint in charge. Where will we all be then? Progressists should focus on enhancing the liberal base in Congress not destroying it as many here seem to want to do. Killing the Bill accomplishes NOTHING. Bill is a first step. Let’s focus on improving it instead of handing over power to rep for another decade of Bush-Cheney like policies

and – you can switch car insurance providers any time you like. in this case, you can not leave your employer provided insurance in hopes of getting a better deal on the exchange

Glenn Greenwald has cogently addressed this side light of the health care debate:

“Whether you call it “a government takeover of the private sector” or a “private sector takeover of government,” it’s the same thing: a merger of government power and corporate interests which benefits both of the merged entities (the party in power and the corporations) at everyone else’s expense. Growing anger over that is rooted far more in an insider/outsider dichotomy over who controls Washington than it is in the standard conservative/liberal ideological splits from the 1990s. It’s true that the people who are angry enough to attend tea parties are being exploited and misled by GOP operatives and right-wing polemicists, but many of their grievances about how Washington is ignoring their interests are valid, and the Democratic Party has no answers for them because it’s dependent upon and supportive of that corporatist model. That’s why they turn to Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh; what could a Democratic Party dependent upon corporate funding and subservient to its interests possibly have to say to populist anger?

Even if one grants the arguments made by proponents of the health care bill about increased coverage, what the bill does is reinforces and bolsters a radically corrupt and flawed insurance model and an even more corrupt and destructive model of “governing.” It is a major step forward for the corporatist model, even a new innovation in propping it up. How one weighs those benefits and costs — both in the health care debate and with regard to many of Obama’s other policies — depends largely upon how devoted one is to undermining and weakening this corporatist framework (as opposed to exploiting it for political gain and some policy aims). That’s one of the primary underlying divisions Kilgore identifies, and he’s right to call for greater examination and debate over the role it is playing.”

The Health Care fiasco is about much, much more than simply finding a way to provide adequate health care in America, it is currently the leading edge of the war against the corporate machine. To let the senate bill form the basis of HCR will represent one more giant step toward the corporate ownership of America.

Nice summary and useful as a source of information as you say. But the question remains as to what to do with this info in mind.

The logical response when one is left with an untenable set of options is avoid making them to the xtent possible. No one would dispute that and yet little thought is given to how to avoid these options. Armed with this information what should we do.

First I think is to draw conclusions based on this info and then to act apprpriately.

The first and overriding conclusion is obvious which is that all these measures have been taken to presere the profitability of private insurers at the expense of the public. The second is that that Congress and Obama are complicit in in promoting the interests of private gain at the expense of the public.

So the proper response is not to abide by these measures to the extent possible. And secondly to seek measures that circumvent Government in furthering our goals.

We should therefore not provide the funds to private insurers which allow them to operate. If we continue to fund private insurers they will not change and their influence on government will continue.

In like manner and much easier to pursue, drugmakers must be brought heel by defunding them as well. Here iomproting drugs from Canada en masse may be feasible.

Lastly regrding the circumvention of government we should act to expedite recall elcted officials. We should hold the threat of dismissal over their heads constantly. We must have that power and use it as a remedy quickly and effectively.

The guiding principle here is a great irony. Private firms and government act to enrich themselves at our expense with our own money. This irony is quickly defanged by simply ceasing to feed this predator class with our funds. We need to see that we hold the solution to our predicament in our hads.

Well I don’t disagree with you, and I think your vision would be a lot healthier for the nation than what we’ve got. Good luck!

and car insurance is to protect others.

To let the senate bill form the basis of HCR will represent one more giant step toward AFFIRMATION OF the corporate ownership of America.

There. Fixed it for ya’. :^)

It’s called revolution. Fundamental change to the socio-economic system. It won’t happen overnight, not by 2010 or 2012 or 2014. One step at a time. Pick the conservatives off as we can. IMO we’re in the beginning phase of a progressive movement but, again, it’s going to take a lot of work. Unlike the reichwing we don’t march in lockstep to a top down hierarchy. It may take us longer to get things done but I think we can accomplish them in a way that really serves the common good.

Delurking, thank you for the invite.
I think health care reform is long over due in this country. Despite the obvious urgency of improving access to affordable health care, money too easily shapes the debate and buys power. Because of this, progressive reform of any kind needs more than reasoned arguments and passion to succeed. Still I believe passion and reason can change the way people think and act, even those that seem to be only concerned with money and power.
Now I have to go back to work.
Thanks again for the invite.

I am probably best described as a lurker. I don’t comment on FDL all that often. However, I will use this moment to say that I am with Jane, Markos and Gov. Dean 100%.

Not only am I with them, but I think that their efforts, along with the efforts of other progressives in the netroots are the only reason that we have a prayer that this legislation won’t be a total joke.

Hopefully something worth a shit comes out of conference.

Yes, they do already own it, that is true.

I wholeheartedly agree. What happened to all of the letters signed by progressive members of congress saying they would not vote for a bill without a public option? Now all we hear are crickets. Why can’t progressive members of congress do the very same dance that conservadems do? And, ultimately, when will we have the organization to target these faux dems and get them out, replacing them with progressives like sanders, grayson, feingold and franken etc?

My opinion on both the bills was that they were written from a fundamentally flawed perspective that already layed the wrong foundation for the wrong debate. I’m not at all surprised we got the shaft, this whole thing was laid out perfectly to fail.

However, given where we are right now, I would have liked to seen them kill the Senate bill because at the end of the day it was nothing more than a shit cake with crap icing – oh and a cherry on top from Ben Nelson. I’m not a fan of the House bill necessarily but at least the strengths of that bill are real and give us a real foot in the door to fight for better reform later.

I have been experiencing some rather nasty blow back from my Democratic Party loyalists who are attacking me with sound bites, convinced we need to pass this and fight to improve it later. My response to their hysteria is basically:

- Have you actually read the bill? Because if the answer is no, then please stop repeating sound bites. That is not a policy discussion. The President is selling you crap and calling it caviar.

- If we can’t pass anything better reform when we have a freaking super majority, what exactly is your basis for confidence the Democrats will be able to better themselves when there are less of them? Less is more powerful?

- There were five bills written to address Health Care Reform, a fact President Obama touted when chastising progressives, and the best of each bill was supposed to be incorporated into the final product – we only saw the weakest two. Where did the others go? One of them was a fantastic proposal from Dennis Kucinich, why was that not even put onto the floor for consideration?

- For a group of people so loyal to the YES WE CAN mantra, you sure do spend a lot of time arguing (rather hypocritically) for WHY WE CAN’T! We must pass this legislation because WE CAN’T get anything better. The Democrats really, really tried but THEY CAN’T negotiate anything stronger. The President would love to have intervened and fought for a stronger position but HE CAN’T. We have to pass this now because WE WON’T get another chance.

BULLSHIT!

You know, consider every single last extreme, obnoxious, immoral and unbelievable thing you have seen over the last eight years (and still counting). Would you have ever though those things would come to fruition?

Now flip that coin over and imagine that in reverse: Universal Health Care, conversion to alternative power, minding our own business in the Middle east, the finest education in the world.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. We just elected the First Black President in our nation’s history when two years ago, the same liberals raking me over the coals were saying “Oh, he’s smart and everything but there is NO WAY a black man with the middle name Hussein is going to get elected in this environment.”

Getting elected is easy – actually representing your voters is hard!

If you are willing to lower the bar to the point where you are basically saying, I’ll take whatever I can get, well then you deserve what you choose to settle for.

Personally, I choose to NOT settle, I want what I voted for!

I guess what I’m advocating–and I’ve posted enough and don’t want to hijack the thread–is hardcore economic populism. Clintonian/Obamite neoliberal triangulation is fascism in the end.

Now the right wing wholly owns the populist terrain, and we have to build a grand coalition of those who are disgusted that Wall Street on one hand and the unions, on the other, control politics to the exclusion of the American voters.

Auto insurance mandates is a poor comparison. You can chose not to own or drive a car. Moreover, failing to buy auto insurance doesn’t result in an IRS levy and/or prosecution which is what puts the teeth in the HC mandate, as I understand it.

This is not a healthy step on an ineluctable track to single-payer. If Obama and the Dems can’t get it done now, under what future scenario do you see them having the chops/political power to fine tune coverage to resemble more like our European counterparts provide their citizens.

what do you see as the next 2 steps to improving this bill?

Bet you haven’t given it a thought.

OK delurked. Dkos has been over run by those all to willing to give away what we fought so hard for so they can claim a hollow victory.

So much for the experiment. The dems are going to pay for betraying the base, they sure as hell better not count on me for support.

Obama has thrown us away to appease the corporations. Hope that works for him come 2012 and the dems in 2010. looks like we are going to have to destroy the village in order to save it by handing it back over to the republicans. So be it. If it takes another 8 years of republican rule to get the change we were promised as far as I am concerned the sooner we start the sooner we can get it over with.

If our country survives that is.

The unions control politics? I’ll need a lot of evidence before I buy that one.

Habmed didn’t give me heartburn.

It was the nature of the attack that gave me heartburn, as I explained in my comment @ 14 to Firedoglake Attacked, Again.

And much more to the point, what gave me heartburn was Jane’s initial response to the attack in her comment @ 84, which was not a good response at all, followed by her post on Friday, the one that opened her up to the very effective hit job in the Daily Kos diaries, then her lame efforts to turn this bad move into lemonade beginning last night rather than doing what she should have done – clearly and unequivocally reverse course by clearly separating her work from that of teabaggers and other lunatics, which is what I tried to show her in my diary, Firedoglake Attacked, Again. No one listened.

To me, personal loyalty matters. I’m not trying to hurt Jane at all. Of course not! On the other hand, it has to work both ways. No one in the FDL leadership seems to think I’d have much to contribute on the inside, and leaving me to work my ass off and watch from the outside isn’t working for me, or for Firedoglake, for that matter.

Look, don’t respond to this comment. It’s better not to continue this discussion.

I’ll keep my freedom, money and guns. You can keep the change!

Registered indepedent who fears the socialist takeover of America (see current day Greece is an example of our future..)

Not happy with Dems or Reps, the goodness is the sleeping giant of independent America is wakingup, lets hope its not too late.

Hi everyone,
I am writing from Canada and I have been lurking here for the past 6 months or so. In watching your travails with “health care” it’s easy for us Canucks to get sanctimonious, so it’s safer to just lurk :-)

Back in 2004, CBC ran a national poll that asked for our opinion on who is/was the greatest Canadian of all time. The results were close but the eventual winner was Tommy Douglas, from Saskatchewan who became known as the “father of Medicare”. We do love our social safety net!

I wonder how Pres. Obama would like to be remembered as the Greatest American of All time???

Top Ten: http://www.cbc.ca/greatest/standings/
The Winner!! http://www.cbc.ca/greatest/top_ten/nominee/douglas-tommy.html

There is a story about the pre-adolescent daughter of a major Hollywood producer with an uncanny taste for what would be popular. If the kid liked the scene or the movie, it stayed, and anything else was jettisoned. The producer took credit, of course, for his unerring production of hits. And the little girl was never recognized.

I think about here in this broad swirl of blogs.

The mandate is to protect others, in a way. It protects the vulnerable by forcing the young and healthy to pay into the system. But as everyone is saying, it just makes no sense without a public option.

Jane, I read here often but have never posted.

I wrote to my senators and congressman (Murray, Cantwell, and Rick Larsen) and told them, in part, that:

The Senate version of the health bill favors the corporations first, the citizens last. That I’m a life-long Democrat who is thoroughly disgusted that Obama and congress allowed the starting point for healthcare reform to be compromised before the actual debates and discussions even began; that they rolled over and allowed single-payer to be taken off the table because they apparently don’t have the moral values to keep it in the discussion because they don’t want to tick off their corporate patrons, the citizens be damned!

I reminded them that Obama made secret deals with Big Pharma, after promising transparency. The public option was jettisoned. Etc.

I let them know that I’ve never voted for a Republican, and don’t intend to do so in the future. But, I also let them know that I don’t intend to support them, including Obama, if they pass this watered-down, but politically-hyped, crappy bill. They think we have no where to go, but some day they might realize they can’t win w/o us.

Health stocks, especially health insurance stocks, are ticking up, up, up today.

Robert Kuttner”

“If the health care bill goes down, the far right will add another notch to their belt, the media will paint Obama as a loser, and Obama will be even more cautious and pro-corporate going forward. If he wins, maybe he’ll be a little bolder and maybe progressives can call in some IOUs.”

Defies logic so completely as to make one wonder what Kuttner has been smoking.

What SouthernDragon said…

Hi Jane, I learned of FDL/Jane Hamsher at a Take Back America event. (The Hilton or the Omni)

I have stopped trying to post on Huffington Post because of capricious censoring of entire posts. They seem to want namby-panby pablum posts, and they protect the Clinton’s like Samurai Warriors at the moat (at least my posts). Enough with them.

I don’t lurk on FDL, but I find the threads I visit/post on FDL extremely cliquey. Some seem to use FDL instead of email to specific persons. But that’s small potatoes, easy to skim over.

Not censoring ideas is the big advantage FDL has over the others I am familiar with.

I am hoping to contribute to FDL in the future. My allegiance is to reality and facts, not to personalities or labels.

Keep up the good work.

@143 fuckno

Spot on.

If he wins, maybe he’ll be a little bolder??????????

No, if he wins, he’ll screw progressives more and more because he knows he can get away with it.

As a long time lurker and freedom loving citizen of the USA, I oppose the law to mandate my purchase of insurance from a private insurance company. I am disappointed by the meagre attempt to improve health care and de-facto bail out of the insurance industry.

However, since we are suffering an extremely polarized Senate, we must get what we can and keep fighting. Republicans must be blamed for the weak sell out to the insurance industry, or else Democrats could be in trouble. We did not get what we want.

The logical response when one is left with an untenable set of options is avoid making them to the xtent possible. No one would dispute that and yet little thought is given to how to avoid these options. Armed with this information what should we do.

First I think is to draw conclusions based on this info and then to act apprpriately.

The first and overriding conclusion is obvious which is that all these measures have been taken to presere the profitability of private insurers at the expense of the public. The second is that that Congress and Obama are complicit in in promoting the interests of private gain at the expense of the public.

So the proper response is not to abide by these measures to the extent possible. And secondly to seek measures that circumvent Government in furthering our goals.

We should therefore not provide the funds to private insurers which allow them to operate. If we continue to fund private insurers they will not change and their influence on government will continue.

In like manner and much easier to pursue, drugmakers must be brought heel by defunding them as well. Here iomproting drugs from Canada en masse may be feasible.

Lastly regrding the circumvention of government we should act to expedite recall elcted officials. We should hold the threat of dismissal over their heads constantly. We must have that power and use it as a remedy quickly and effectively.

The guiding principle here is a great irony. Private firms and government act to enrich themselves at our expense with our own money. This irony is quickly defanged by simply ceasing to feed this predator class with our funds. We need to see that we hold the solution to our predicament in our hads.

I don’t post much, but I agree with you 1000%. The reason I do not have healthcare right now is I cannot afford it ! I’ve NEVER gone to the ER for anything. And right now I have a whole $15 to my name and do not get paid until Christmas Day.
I usually rely on my IRS tax check to boost me up a bit but now, I’ll be fined for not purchasing their lousy Ins. I will not be told what I can and cannot do in regards to my own financial status. Not here in America. I pay my bills. I pay my taxes. I work fulltime. I’ve two sons in the military.
I’ve given enough.

I think his first sentence is correct, but his second sentence is excessively hopeful. I’ll be happy to simply have the Dems setting the agenda for a few years. For example, as bad as this bill is right now, if McCain had been elected, we wouldn’t have discussed health care AT ALL. We’d be arguing about some right-wing baloney topic like cutting even more taxes for the wealthy.

Hmm, where to start..

Andy Stern – $60 M to get Obama elected.. or at least the $ buys a whole lot of WH visits.

Wash DC Teachers Union kills the voucher program that actually helped low income kids the chance for a better education.

City of Houston – bankrupt as Union pension obligations are greater than annual revenues.
The California case study – State government strapped by Unions
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/06/dr-seuss-on-economy.html

Need more facts, they will be provided.

I do post here. Sometimes. But lately, I’m reconsidering that activity again…

As for the health care bill (non-#hcr, as I write on Twitter), it is completely opposite in nearly all of its main points to what Obama campaigned for when he repeatedly said (during the campaign) how important health care reform was to him, personally, while using his mother‘s ordeal to gain points or street cred…

I never really jumped on Obama’s bandwagon, even though I voted for him in the general, but, I am still extremely disappointed that he was able to lie and dissemble so easily and, apparently, without remorse.

You are doing a great job Jane. I’ve been living in Europe for twelve years now and so I know what a proper health care system is. What the Democrats are pushing is beyond a joke and should be resisted by all. Believe me, this is the last shot for America to get things right and if you settle for LeiberCare you will have to live with it for decades to come.

The only real change will come when people get beyond the right-left divide and working and middle class people start working together. Also it is great that you have Yves Smith writing here now!

This bill is a net positive – it should pass.

Women fought for 100 years to win the franchise.

African Americans fought for hundreds of years against bondage, another 100 years of Jim Crow, and the battle continues.

This is the first step to defeat a very powerful foe – the insurance industry. Their stocks went up – yes. But was it because they won outright, or becasue they didn’t lose as bad as they thought they might?

Let’s move forward and continue the fight!

I regularly read this site and have recently started following Jane’s appearances on MSNBC. I appreciate the strong advocacy for progressive policies, and the honest, hard-hitting efforts to put pressure on Democrats who act like corporate representatives. I am a strong supporter of a government plan (like Medicare) that ANYONE can buy into. I object to the requirement that people will be required to purchase a private plan (under the Senate bill). Humans are not automobiles, so the argument that our health insurance situation is like car insurance doesn’t ring true for me.

Probably the best strategy for addressing the current state of proposed health care legislation is to say “this is unacceptable.” I think that is what Howard Dean meant when he said “kill the bill.” But we also need to identify the most objectionable elements of the legislation, in hopes that we can pressure some change (in the House). Stripping the mandate would be at the top of my list. Next, we should go after all of the loopholes in the bill, which really don’t close the door to rescission, exclusions (and over-charging) for preexisting conditions, and other objectionable industry practices. Finally, we should point out ways that the non-profit plan could be modified to function more like a public option.

That makes no sense: if you work fulltime you already HAVE insurance, and you won’t suffer any penalty under this bill. There’s enough in the world to get anxious about without making shit up.

Also, your sons went into the service as adults, of their own accord: that doesn’t earn you any exemptions that I’m aware of.

Hi Jane, just wanted to thank you for the new petition. I’ve signed it and mentioned it at my place. Good luck with this.

P.S. Welcome to those who are delurking. It’s nice to hear from the folks like me who are regularly mouthing off about these things.

I shall stop lurking at once.

There done.

The Kossacks did not like this diary of mine at Kos, where I was also lurking:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/8/22/770779/-Health-Care,-Appeasement-and-Consequences

I have also installed the new Microsoft and Google de-lurking patch (aka: Oogler patch), written by the NSA, where the patch will track my every movement of the mouse and every keystroke. Future releases will track eye movements, and it come with the automatic pepper spray feature when my eyes stray to often…

Not an apt comparison. The requirement to carry auto insurance is primarily to protect OTHERS against whatever harm your owning and driving a car may cause.

Howdy Kevin ! used to love to read your comments over at Gilliard’s place – hope all is well with you and yours

Hi Jane, I’m an occasional lurker who is disgusted with our government after donating time and money to the current administration’s election.
I am now certain that we live in an “oligarchopoly”, and that both parties are merely a Punch and Judy show with the same puppeteer orchestrating the diversionary squabble.
Also, I would date you…
Thanks for trying.

For all the new members, consider this when you consider the health care debate:

In my view first and foremeost progressives must explore in depth the triangulation/reconciliation that encompasses the Wall Street/Bilderberg alliance betwee “liberals” and “conservatives” in both political parties. This is not the Democrat vs. Republican bullshit narrative embraced by the mainstream media.

Take a gander at the folks below who are members of Bilderberg or who have attended Bilderberg events. These are some of the richest and most powerful members of America’s ruling class. They have enormous influence in the creation of policy [and the funding of the policy makers] in Washington.

paul gigot henry kissinger henry kravis hank paulson richard perle condolezza rice mark sanford paul wolfowitz alan greenspan douglas feith chuck hagel dan quayle donald rumsfeld john sununu evan bayh ben bernanke bill clinton richard holbrooke bill kristol bill richardson hillary clinton tim geithner larry summers george mitchell charlie rose george stephanopolus kathleen sebelius dennis ross david rockefeller vernon jordan david gergen harold ford diane fienstein chris dodd etc etc etc

Is this a Democratic bunch? a Repbublican bunch? a liberal bunch? a conservative bunch?

Or take a gander at the corporations that are involved in one capacity or another with Bilderberg:

chase manhattan bank goldman sachs aig washington post company xerox ford motor exxon mobil shell bp fox news corporation merck archer daniels midland monsanto ibm etc etc etc

What sort interests do all of these folks share in common?

Crony capitalism, of course. A fake democracy that is trotted out whenever policy and legislation revolves around really, really really important economic or foreign policy.

If you want the audacity of real change elect democrats and independents to the Congress and the White House who are not part of the revolving door, mainstream media crowd above.

Thanks Cujo, appreciate it!

Keep up the great work Jame. Time will show that your reasons for strongly opposing the Senate Health Care corruption bill will prove right in the end. However, I’m afraid that like the Iraq War, American’s will learn too late the grave damage this bill will do to an already egregiously failed health care system. To add to an already appalling giveaway to health insurance companies and Phrma, the conservative Democrat’s have Senator’s like Barbara Boxer agreeing to further limit women’s ability to obtain health care insurance with abortion included. A bill at all costs is not only bad for progressives but also for all American’s. Only a corrupt uncaring politician could vote for the Senate health bill.

I just want to suggest that of all the actions we need to take back our government, not voting is the least productive.

Now we can debate the merits of third-party versus retaking the Democratic Party, (and honestly I can see both sides of that debate), but we need to not only vote, but get involved.

Run for office, or at least get involved in your local party. Help find good candidate so we aren’t saddled with the choice between Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dumber. If you wait until election day, it’s too late.

Here in Indiana, Evan Bayh is up for re-election in 2010, and at this point I don’t think he has a primary challenger. How can I vote for change if there isn’t a candidate? Last time he was up, I voted for the Libertarian (even though I have SERIOUS problems with the Libertarian view) because it was my only choice that wasn’t Bayh or some Corporatist Republican.

The point is, that I voted though. I didn’t just boycott elections.

I understand the frustration, but I fear the end results of boycotting elections.

Bilderberg is no conspiracy.

If they have a plan the destruction of wealth from 2007 to the present could only demonstrate complete incompetence and stupidity, not just untrammeled greed.

I read this blog most days, but don’t get involved in the discussion very often. Part of that is because the issues here normal get hashed out to the point where commenting is redundant; part of it is due to my own fatigue.

Problem is, the politics in this country have been going the wrong way for quite a while, and it’s going to take more than one election to change them. I think the most critical thing at this point is to maintain the outrage. The right is very good at this, and that’s why we have the TeaBaggers. If you really want to move things the other way, you have to win and keep winning; build a 65-seat Democratic majority in the Senate so we can lose a few votes in the appropriate states for the appropriate reasons and still win. Keep the House and add more and more progressive representatives. Take a lesson from our opponents; they never quit spewing their BS, and they never stop pushing their agenda.

IMHO, the real fight has only just begun; you can’t just quit after winning the first round and then wonder why your opponent keeps hitting you. The Left HAS made a lot of progress, remember; there is no way a bill like this would even have been considered in any congress I’ve seen in the last dozen years. The new ideas for making this country better are all on the Left; time to keep the pressure on and keep things moving in OUR direction. MAKE Obama do the right things, and he will do them. Give him the Congress that will send him the right bills, and by God I’m sure he will sign them. Elect another Democrat after he’s done. Keep the opponent backing up; that’s the only way against this bunch.

That’s what they did to you for 30 years.

Now it’s their turn, so keep fighting.

All of these things are okay. It’s good to have diversity of opinion and healthy debate. It’s up to every individual to choose the community they feel comfortable in, where they feel like their views will be respected and they can express themselves.

Jane FDL IS by far the best progressive Blog in existence plain and simple. The welcoming FDL family is way above what you find any where else in the Blogosphere!
Thanks for all you do Jane and I did sign the petition to Kill The Bill Baby Kill The Bill!#@#!!

Obama’s 2012 campaign slogan:

“The Audacity of D’Oh!”

Drawn by the seductive siren’s song of “half a loaf” and “incrementalism”, because there is logic in DKos’ arguments: ppl will be helped, it is a place to start, there are good pieces.

And yet, it is hard to forget the other great examples of incrementalism. Such as welfare reform, which stripped away the remnants of a safety net and made today’s poverty and desperation deeper and more tragic. Or the Adoption and Safe Families Act, that was designed to keep children from languishing in foster care but resulted in the destruction of 100′s of 1,000′s of families through pressured terminations of parental rights.

Both are the legacies of our last Dem administration. There are so few examples of going back for the other half of the loaf. No, incrementalism just isn’t an answer. Did the Repub. administration incrementally move their agenda? No, because incrementalism just doesn’t work.

Why are we so afraid to advance the social justice agenda with a firm and clear voice?

OT but very important read:

Leadership, Obama Style, and the Looming Losses in 2010
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/drew-westen/leadership-obama-style-an_b_398813.html

Would lke to read what everybody thinks. Personally, I think it’s right on the money.

I second this request. In a way, FDL is just catching up to where many of us have been.

I agree. Requiring people to buy a service from a private corporation is fascism and it is unacceptable. If congress and the president insist on a mandate, there needs to be a government or other non profit alternative.

I will not develop a thick skin because it prevents me from hearing the opposite views

I think this is profound. I struggle with this every single day, here and elsewhere. Pathology, writ large? I don’t think so. There is a very fine line between being tough enough to take it and building a wall. I am not being critical. I do, however, think it’s important for everyone in the trenches to understand that some of us have not yet (and may, in fact, never–sometimes by choice) developed rhino hides. Are we therefore useless and peripheral? Just askin’.

Tanks for de invitation to de lurk, Jane.

I allways like de Roxette muzic. I was particular fond of de song de lurk.

Tanks for de opportunity to talk about dat song.

De-lurking! FDL is an amazing place and is one of the few bright spots in the political landscape right now. Thanks for all the great diaries and comments, maybe I can convince myself that I’m smart enough to join in more.

OK, now de-lurking (or as we say in the dweeb world ). As others have said, I rarely post since by the time I have a useful thought, someone else has already made the point. I hope Jane does keep reading down here in the 100′s of comments to see the influence and appreciation she has garnered. I am a physician/researcher/teacher and I read FDL daily to keep informed but even more importantly to know where I can most usefully direct my time, energy, and money. My congresspeople (and my long-suffering spouse) are long sick of hearing me rant about healthcare reform. During the current debate, I have tried with little success to push the meme that a gutted health-care bill is not half-a-loaf, it’s a broken machine (http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/11218). As far as where to go now, count me among the dejected and demoralized progressives who think that not passing the bill is -horrifyingly enough- even worse at this point than passing it, even though I agree with all of Jane’s objections. In deciding which way to come down, I had said I was going to wait and see what others whom I respect had to say: Dean, Krugman, Feingold, Kuttner, etc., and of course, Jane. I noticed the split early on: it seems like the wonkier end of the progressive movement is saying hold-your-nose-and-pass-it whereas the more passionate end says kill-it. I am honestly torn but in the end, I have to say pass it and move on to figuring out where and how to keep fighting. On the national level, it may be that the only real hope is reform of Senate rules (for example Harkin’s time-limited filibuster) but in parallel, I think we should keep fighting State by State to find places we can win.

Seconded, or thirded, or whatever-ed.

We can probably learn something from history, the people who get things done, get out of the system that gets in their way: Bull Moose Party

Signed and sent, thank you for linking.

It doesn’t look good, at this point. The momentum seems to be with the ‘moderate’ (corporatist) triangulators, at this point. But it’s important to remain informed and know where ones interests lie…Not with this awful bill.

Forget now where I found the link to the following article (was it here?) but it just about sums up the meaning of this legislation for me:

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/12/0082740

I found that Daily Kos top-rated diary really stupid, and I don’t usually use words like that. What credentials was s/he talking about? What credentials does Jane Hamsher or anyone else need to speak her mind?

Forget credentials, for a moment, and tell me this: what about informing oneself? such as, why write such a stupid diary entry based on wikipedia and internet smear campaigns rather than following Hamsher’s writing for more than a second and then judge for oneself?

I wanted to write this on the Daily Kos but there were too many other comments.

We need Jane Hamsher. Why can’t we stop this in-fighting amongst the left, progressive, liberal community and start organizing rallies, marches, etc., for change? We can disagree without undermining each other for no good reason, no?

We NEED a social movement against corporate power! That is the bottom line!

It’s still not a similar law.

Even in California, you are NOT FORCED to purchase car insurance. You can choose to walk, bike, take a cab, use public transportation, or whatever. You’re not forced to own a car, therefore you’re not forced to purchase insurance for it.

With this bill, it will for the first time, force everyone to purchase something from a private entity.

Now imagine all the lobbyists lining up representing all the other corporate interests after this bill passes. Scary indeed.

I do not post very often, but I feel I am more than just a “lurker.” Firedoglake is my homepage, so every time I turn on the computer, I see what is going on. I fully support what Jane is doing with her opposition to this horrible bill that will enrich the insurance companies.

I do miss those Pups you refer to Selise and I do hope they are allowed to rejoin our community… as you said Jane we welcome all with their own opinions and the polite discourse that such diversity brings!!

.

Please see comment 141.

We NEED a social movement against corporate power! That is the bottom line!

Couldn’t agree more.
It has been all down hill for the masses ever since “Corporations” were given personhood and all the rights that go with it!! Corporations should have to pay a flat 10% sur tax of all profits to the Government for the privilege of doing business in the US before they pay any actual income taxes, business and their stock holders be damned. But with the Repukes and the Repuke SCOUTUS it will never happen!!

Obama snatched the Democratic Party and handed it over to Wall Street traders and Corporations.

Fuck him, and fuck all those Democrats who believe that they belong to the same party they identified with in 2008! It’s not your party anymore!

If you declare yourself as a New Democrat, and cheer the idea that we should be run by Corporate interests; – go shake hands with your long despised Republican cousins; you deserve each other.

Bet to differ!

The logical response when one is left with an untenable set of options is avoid making them to the extent possible. No one would dispute that and yet little thought is given to how to avoid these options.

First thing to do, I think, is to draw conclusions based on the info we have on hand and then to act accordingly.

The first and overriding conclusion to draw is obvious which is that the measures taken thus far have been to preserve the profitability of private insurers and Phrma at the expense of the public. The second is that that Congress and Obama are complicit in promoting the interests of private gain at the expense of the public. A further conclusion is that Government is irretrievably shaped so as to not act on our behalf and solutions do not lie there.

So the proper response is to not abide by the provisions in this bill to the extent possible. And secondly we should seek remedies that circumvent Government in furthering our goals.

First we should make a general statement that mandating the purchase of private insurance is illegal and will not be respected. Something along the lines of what Olberman sais a feww days ago. Acceding to this mandate will only feed the very problem we hope to dismantle.

We should also not provide the funds to private insurers which allow them to operate. If we continue to fund private insurers they will not change and their influence on government will continue.

In like manner and much easier to accomplish, drug makers must be brought heel by de-funding them as well. Here importing drugs from Canada en masse may be feasible.

Lastly regarding the circumvention of government, we should enact laws by way of popular plebiscite to expedite the recall elected officials. We should hold the threat of dismissal over their heads constantly. We must have that power and use it as a remedy quickly and effectively.

The guiding principle here is a great irony. Private firms and government act to enrich themselves at our expense with our own money. This irony is quickly defanged by simply ceasing to feed this predator class with our funds. We need to see that we hold the solution to our predicament in our hands.

Hi Jane,

Coming out of lurk-space to offer my 2 cents worth.

The bill sucks and we should do everything in our power to strength and oppose it — short of killing it.

But, and it bloody kills me to say this, we should take what we can get on this and move on. Emotionally I am with you 100%, but intellectually I agree w/ Krugman and Kuttner when they say that no passage is worse for the Movement than passing a (heavily) flawed bill.

We need to really start working on global warming, ending the damn wars, building a green jobs economy, etc. and this “reform” bill is sucking the oxygen out of any other progressive efforts. And if the repugs kill this bill it is over — we won’t get anything done
(no matter how flawed) for the next three years.

Billy
Bowdoin, Maine

One more thought, and then I’ll really go!

I always got this sense that mainstream Dems hated the Nader people because it was cultural. You know, my feeling is Kos hates real hippies. (He is kinda militaristic, tho he’s vegan himself.) Lots of us are vegans and pro-hemp/marijuana. And pacifist. This doesn’t go down well with pro-war liberal bloggers. I don’t think Nader was a pacifist, either–but he tends to attract that demographic, for whatever reason.

I have been alienated from sites like Kos and Atrios and Digby because they think our concerns are rubbish and they have demonized us for voting Nader. (The Common Dreams folks are the only Naderites I know of in the blogosphere.) So I never participated.

Anyway, the point is I hope we can all put aside our differences and work towards moving this country in the right direction, putting aside our cultural differences!

Yes indeed. Forced to buy defective health insurance is only the start. Enslavement of stupid Americans is the ultimate goal.

Isn’t boycotting the election the exact thing that you did by voting for someone who had no chance of winning? How is that different from staying home?

The unions control politics? I’ll need a lot of evidence before I buy that one.

We can’t ask the right wing to give up corporations in politics if we’re not willing to give up something ourselves.

Unions are the strongest mediators in the Democrat Party coalition as relates to liberals and progressives.

I’ll trade the unions away along with corporations any day of the week.

Long time lurker, who just wants to say Jane is the most impressive Patriot I’ve ever heard, as she opposes the Kabuki theatre that is the American political system. Jane, I hope you realize you speak for so many of us who are fed up with the comedy show we’ve witnessed this summer and fall…

Delurking again. My posts aren’t generally substantial (by the time I want to say something, someone else has already said it better), so I spend most of my time reading. I particularly appreciate Jon Walker’s posts on HCR — substantial and with useful links.

For me, the only real competition for private health insurance is Medicare. You make Medicare available to all as an option and let the private insurers compete. By definition, Medicare must accept all taxpaying citizens. It’s fair. We pay into it, we deserve to get something for it.

I’ve been lurking here and at Daily Kos since before the 2004 election, and here’s what I’ve learned so far:

Today “Bipartisan” = pro-corporate and anti-voter legislation. Elected Democrats include conservatives, moderates and a few liberals that make good scapegoats for the media. Elected Republicans include conservatives and a shrinking handful of moderates that can be browbeaten into submission.

Liberal media presence has improved now that Democrats are in the majority, but they are still outnumbered by conservatives in the pundit class. If I want to read a substantial discussion of the issues, I still have to hunt for good blog posts.

Members of the liberal blogosphere tend to fling poo/engage in pie fights when they’ve been punked by the people they work so hard to elect every two to four years. We still need to work on that misplaced anger. I still believe that Firedoglake is working constructively to change that. Keep up the good fight. My money is still being well spent :-)

Kuttner is a weak pro, yet not on merit, but on a faulty analysis of the political landscape, – much the same holds for Krugman

I’m delurking to say, I greatly appreciate this site and its commitment to action. I have signed several of the petitions, but I’m not signing the current one.

After gnashing my teeth a lot and crying a bit, I think the bill — if it’s not changed any further — should pass, in all its stinky, corroded glory. Whether it’s definitely Obama’s doing or not, we’re not getting a better bill from these people at this point, nor are they going to use reconciliation. They’re just not. I’m fine with everybody pushing them over it. It seems to be the improvements in the Manager’s Amendment are entirely due to progressive fury and articulate activism — particularly from Firedoglake. The minute we stop pushing, they’ll sink further into the cosy, warm muck.

I do think it would be better if the progressive community could resist ad hominem attacks, especially on each other. People like Ezra Klein supporting passage are not stooges and sell-outs. You can disagree with him (and me, at this point) vehemently; he doesn’t have to be the spawn of the devil to be on the other side of this issue.

I’d like to see the progressive community mount an active campaign to get rid of the Senate entirely. Would that be hard to do? Sure. But pundits in the blogosphere right now seem to be weakly flapping their hands and wishing the Senate would reform itself. That is unlikely happen. At the very least, a robust movement to eliminate the Senate might result in elimination of the filibuster — I don’t see how that happens in the near future otherwise, and it’s the near future that matters.

This was inspired by Jane, Jon and the Firedoglake community: http://scrapthesenate.blogspot.com/

Jay

Short-time lurker, and thanks Jane and everyone else at FDL for exposing the Senate bill for what it really is, and is not. I am so disgusted by this sellout to the insurance companies, and by the constant blind cheer-leading from so many of my liberal friends for everything Obama. I’m disappointed after year one – maybe things will get better.

Hey
Billy GOT SNOW?? I used to live in Southern Maine a while back…I sure don’t miss the Winters back there!

You can choose not to drive, then you don’t need auto insurance. You can take a bus, ride a bike, use a cab, ETC. Blind people do it all of the time. The mandate is nothing more than welfare for the health insurance companies.

I guess I am a lurker although I have been a registered reader for a bit. FDL and other blogs are my morning paper and bedtime story. I am lucky to be employed with health benefits, but feel trapped. I am just short of being a baby-boomer and had hoped to retire from my job and pursue my freelance gigs as a choreographer. I cannot do that because of my son — I worry I will not be able to afford private health insurance as a single payer, or that I might be denied for preexisting conditions.

The new bill throws everybody under the bus being driven by Corporations. I put the blame directly at the feet of our President. His lack of leadership has increased the partisan antics of our dubious elected officials, both Republican and Democrat. His disingenuous rhetoric is a slap in the face. I swallowed a shit load of cynicism to vote for him. He has not fulfilled any of the “promises” he made while campaigning.

I feel sorry for the handful of Democratic leaders who have been/are being forced to deny the values and visions they truly hold. The President has forced his colleagues — and all of us — to reside between a rock and a hard place. He is no gentleman. I fear we are screwed.

Now we can debate the merits of third-party versus retaking the Democratic Party, (and honestly I can see both sides of that debate), but we need to not only vote, but get involved

I agree. There are honest differences that can be raised regarding which route to go: electing more genuinely progressive Democrats or creating a new progressive party instead.

But not voting at all? sitting out future elections?

That’s a recipe for Republican rule. You know, for all practical purposes.

First, do no harm.

Barack Obama fooled a lot of progressives. The Democratic Congressional canditdates fooled a lot more. So, try to get rid of them. Dump these Bilderberg bastards by all means. But, if you can’t, don’t allow them to be replaced with Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin “movement” conservatives.

Back in the 70s when I was involved in radical left wing political organizations many of us embraced Ronald Reagan thinking, “let the people see how bad things will get under the Republicans”.

The rest is history.

If we can’t expose to the American voters the coordinated Wall Street agenda of the rich and powerful cronies from both parties [and so far we haven't even come close] at least we can prevent the fanatical reactionaries from making things so much worse. Worse, for example, for people of color, women, gays, unions, the environment.

Don’t not vote. Don’t not continue to work for progressive change.

We need to characterize this bill correctly to unite the opposition:

This is a TAX on healthcare spending amounting to 15-20% payable to private corporations.

Jane:

Don’t sweat these folks they sold out long ago. All they want over at Daily Kos is to bow and scrape in the presence of Obama and the great and magical Rahm. They are only concerned with White House access not progressive politics. Good riddance to bad rubbish – they are doormats in the most fundamental sense of the word.

I rarely comment because someone has usually stated my position more eloquently than I would have.

Yea mii too

I don’t know that I have been a lurker because I have, here and there responded, asked questions, and replied to a number of posts. My time is short, and apparently I have “Response Deficit Disorder” because most people post and respond on this and other sites at lightening speed. I need more time to collect and organize my thoughts, and usually the thread has left me behind. However, I am going to use this opportunity to say what I have experienced in this debacle that is to be called HCR.
I have always been locally involved, to some extent or another, in political issues that I have felt the need to be involved in. I have been donating etc since 2004, with a hope of getting a more progressive representation in the so misnamed “Hallowed Halls”. But this past year I have almost exclusively spent my time working on HCR, with my time, my money… you name it. I went to the Town Hall meetings, and spoke out. (I live in the Atlanta, GA area), I began calling my elected officials in 2004 about what was occurring to my family because of this industry. I now have logged in so many calls to my representatives offices, that there is a staffer in Johnny Isakson’s DC office with whom I am on a first name basis. I have attended rallies, vigils,demonstrations and donated all along the way. Throughout this whole year, I have been amazed at the lack of organization between all the groups active in my area. Now this is a small geographic area, but for us to make reform into something more than a bailout to the health care industries…. insurance, big Pharma, hospitals,…. this has got to be one where the numbers cannot be ignored. This needs the churches to be speaking about the moral side to this issue. This needs the civil rights groups addressing that side of this issue. This needs the bloggers feeding information to the activists doing the antics such as Billionaires for Wealthcare, and Mobilization for Healthcare Now. This needs the women’s equality groups, the physicians and nursing groups that support single payer all working in tandem with these other groups. I tried this entire year to round up all of these groups in my state to support each other by showing up at every event even if it wasn’t their group. And no one would even respond to back to me. Well, thats not true. One individual in his 70′s was always game to join me in an effort to increase the numbers visible. Unfortunately, his health wasn’t always on board with his spirit.
IMHO, unless, and until, we progressives begin the organizing of all interested parties, with a common goal and coordinated efforts towards the same end, we will not have success. And may I finish by saying that each time I met with a staffer for one of my congresscritters I was armed to teeth with the facts and figures that I had gleaned at FDL. I have gotten much from other sites too, but FDL stands out in my mind as the one go to site. I never left a meeting without having stymied the staffer, or punched holes in their lame brained Republican plans. When I spoke at a scream-a-thon, calling itself a Town Hall meeting, you could hear a pin drop. And this is because of the information I went in with. Most of it from FDL. This would have been a different summer and fall, a different debate and a different outcome, I suspect, had all groups wishing for reform had been willing to work more closely together. And in no way am I taking a potshot at FDL. My experience in my corner of the world has been that no groups, whether for single payer or public option, was willing to pool their numbers and efforts in order that we were not ignored. I would not only applaud such an effort, but work to make it a reality.
So thats what I think.

Short-time lurker, want to say thanks to FDL for providing the details we need on the Senate health care “reform” bill. I’m so tired of other left-wing sites doing nothing but cheerleading everything Obama does. I voted for him, had high hopes, and have been very disappointed over the last year. It’s nice to find a site where some people might feel the same.

Bilderberg is no conspiracy

It’s not a conspiracy in the sense that one might think of a secret, cloak and dagger bunch who meet in the basement of Dr. Evil somewhere, plotting and planning how the world will function from day today.

And within Bilderberg there are, of course, conflicts and contradictions. Also, Bilderberg is loathed by many conservatives as an attempt to foist a “one government” New World Order on America.

But the more you research it [as well as the council on foreign relations and the trilateral commission] you more you learn just how powerful [and, indeed, secretive] it is on the world stage.

All I ask folks is to Google it, learn about it, decide for themselves how dangerous it is for democracy.

All that money got them the public option they wanted, didn’t it. Not 10 days ago SEIU and AFL-CIO said they’d not support any bill, and by extension Democrats, that didn’t have a public option. Reid dropped it out of the manager’s amendment this weekend without a blink. That’s union power.

Then we have EFCA. That passed by wide margins in both the House and Senate, right? Oh, wait…

The NRLB is packed with neoliberals and DOJ ignores complaints by unions of violations of labour laws. Yep, a sure sign of the power and influence of organized labour.

That unions and their members keep throwing money and support at politicians who stab them in the back at every opportunity is another sign of union power. More like blind faith on the part of unions.

Blind faith in anything will get you killed.

I love to lurk, but occasionally I can dragged into the fray. I must say that this Health Care Bill sux balls, but in consideration of how much more a defeat for Obama would suck, I support what they threw up in the Senate. As far as “starter home” and “we’ll fix it in conference”, well . . . twenty times burnt, twenty-one time shy. Maybe there will be opportunities in the future to add good things to it, but I don’t believe for a second that the conference committee will add anything of benefit.

Well, I’m a card carrying, dues paying Wobbly and I’ll fight for the union until hell freezes over. Then I’ll fight on the ice.

Well for one, I voted for a lot of other people who DID have a chance to win. I supported progressive Dems and even “moderate” who weren’t such corporate shills as Bayh. I didn’t say I voted a straight Libertarian Party ticket. If there had been a Green Party or other liberal candidate instead of the Libertarian, I would have voted for that candidate to show that those ideas have at least some support.

The point is, that I haven’t completely checked out of the process. And since that time, I’ve become very active in my county Democratic Party. I can’t make them all march in lock step behind me (nor would I want to), but at least I have a voice.

Well, I’m a card carrying, dues paying Wobbly and I’ll fight for the union until hell freezes over. Then I’ll fight on the ice.

Blind faith in anything will get you killed.

Another lurker giving up anonymity and have to say for me that my greatest disappointment is with the president. The rest of the democratic leadership such as it is seems remarkably unchanged from year’s past and the whole focus on retaining collegiality in the senate much more important than substantive change for the people they represent. No actions without consequences needs to be the rallying cry so it bums me out when I read people saying that they’re going to give up voting. We need more than ever to hold these people’s feet to the fire!

Thanks Jane and FDL for keeping the coals stoked.

Who said it was blind faith? That’s an assumption on your part. You know nothing of my involvement with or my knowledge of the IWW.

In what world do you live where people who work fulltime “already HAVE insurance?”

Kill the filibuster. Then pass legislation that actually does build a strong foundation for a healthy United States in a safe, healthy, prosperous and peaceful world.

Oops, too late! I will now begin each of my comments with “Hey, I wonder what Balrog thinks about this?” and you will have no choice but to weigh in. ;-)

Other people have probably already said this but it bears repeating many times. This country is not being run by what you see, senators and congressmen.

It is being run by money and power, it is they who own the soul of our government. My point would be that this is not a left right struggle, they win whenever they divide us as a people. Those of you on the right, drop your spoon fed talking points and you on the left who demonize the right, stop a minute and really look at what is happening.

We are not listened to, we are irrelevant in their eyes, but if the truth be known, they fear us coming together in common purpose because it means they will have to listen, we are a power that cannot be ignored. This country is toast if we do not realize this. A true revolution is needed, but it must be with mind, thought and word.

And this is really Maddy speaking about what I continually say. Stop playing their game, you will lose, make your own game with vox populi. Here is a thought that might get some attention; almost every congressman/woman/senator is a millionaire, it costs millions to run for office. I reckon they really don’t have a clue about anything in the real world and certainly don’t, as I said represent us. Running for office should be absolutely free, so common man, who have among them thousands more qaulified than what we have, all spiffy in their sartorial splendor, empty of wisdom, filled with greed and lust for power. I could say ten thousand words more but you get my drift, I am sure. Revolt, use your minds, your intellect. Do you think these wars, these monstrous bastards engage in have anything to do with glory? no, just profit, just money, just power. Lay down your arms soldiers, stop killing and look across at your brothers, and sisters, embrace them, we are all one.
Aka Maddy

What part of the government will be regulating the insurance profiteers? Will they be as competent as the SEC? snark
Hit the apologists for this bill over the head with this question over and over. The only enforcement that will take place will be the IRS’s confiscation of middle America’s income. What, the insurance gangsters are supposed to all of a sudden give a crap about anybody because their Senate bitches passed a rats-nest of incoherent doublespeak? Really? Of course they won’t, and of course the same industry that delivers thousands of “We’re sorry, you’re not covered, you’ll just have to die broke.” letters daily will not straighten up and fly right any more than the MFers that granted themselves bonuses on Wall Street using bailout money.

The problem is that there is no real cap on premiums but the subsidy amounts are set in stone. So if you run the numbers today, you might be able to get insurance, but by the time they actually start up the exchanges in 2014 (which is another flaw, people are dying but we can wait several years to help them) the premiums will undoubtedly be much higher but the subsidies will not. If the premiums are so high that you can’t afford them, you can’t vote with your feet because you are mandated to have insurance. Or you can pay a fine of up to 2% of your income. At what you make, I’m guessing the fine alone will be the difference between having some necessities or not. At the same time, the subsidies only cover junk insurance plans with high deductibles and copays. You could end up paying up to 8% of your income for insurance that doesn’t kick in until you’ve met a deductible you can’t afford. If you want insurance that doesn’t leave you hanging out there exposed to huge deductibles, the subsidies won’t even begin to pay for it. So you could end up being forced to pay month in and month out money that you don’t have and still cover your medical expenses. That’s why in Massachusetts even of those who carry the mandated insurance, about a fifth of them cannot afford any actual medical care. All it gets them is having to give up something else every month so they can pay insurance premiums. In the meantime, it funnels so much new money into private insurance that you haven’t seen anything yet as far as what they can buy with lobbyists, so the chances of it getting worse over time instead of better are huge.

I’m probably one of these ‘lurkers’ since I rarely comment, so I’ll add my thoughts here: VOMIT.

Talk about taking the worst of all worlds here. No drug importation? No cost controls for premiums? No competition? No permanent extension of Cobra coverage (that’s what I have right now)? Plus it doesn’t kick in until 2014? And yet it still costs so much… why? And why is Wall Street so happy about this in recent days? I already know the answer to that last one.

The country does NOT want this current Senate bill! Progressives and Tea Party conservatives, for once, are so united on this. Perhaps for different reasons, but the bottom line is WE the People do not want this bill to pass. Why won’t Obama and Reid listen to us???

For any of the folks form KOS – what happened to drug re-importation in this wonderful bill? What about protecting a women’s right to choose? Hope you enjoy paying the monthly tribute to the Insurance Companies that own the DLC, DNC, DSCC, DCCC and the Big O Administration.

Re: the wonderous Big O Administration – hope you don’t care about Card Check or getting rid of DOMA and DADT because none of that is going to happen. Hope you love No Child Left Behind because nothing is gonna change – its just the third term of the Bush Administration. Don’t forget that there is plenty of room under the bus where Obama and Rahm have already thrown Women, Gays, Lesbians, and the Teachers.

Face it you’re doormats for Obama and Rahm to dance on whenever they please.

I’ll trade the unions away along with corporations any day of the week

paid vacations
sick leave
senority rights
healthcare plans
overtime pay
unemployment benefits
the end of child labor
workplace safey enforcment
benefits packages
orgainized opposition to Wall Street and its enablers in Washington
workplace breaks
40 hour workweek
etc etc etc

Things many workers simply take for granted today exist only because of the labor movement in this country.

The sad part though is that all too many of the unions that became part of the AFL/CIO were content to secure the best deals for themselves and abandoned organizing the rest.

Indeed, to the Kuttners and the Krugmans and all the politicians in Washington just ask this: Should or should not all Americans have access to the same or similar health care plans that you do?

Thank you Selise, you did support me and for that I was grateful

[uncloaking . . . . .] I only skimmed thru the first dozen comments, need to catch up.

I lurk nine days out of ten but comment more often than once annually. The Lake has been a blast the past few months.

Now to read the other two hundred comments.

were content to secure the best deals for themselves and abandoned organizing the rest.

True story.

On the merits, I agree that the bill should not pass. However, if it fails we are going to be faced with 3, if not 7, really bad years ahead. If they will filibuster military funding (and they did) they will stop everything.

Thanks barbara, thank you for reading my post and determining I am not alone.

The Senate bill adds to costs ( ie no precondiiton rejections) and provides no cost control mechanisms like a public option to force insurance companies to comply with what is good for the country

Just wanted to say Hi

Thank you for recognizing we might have something to say

Do you really want change? you will not get it with the crew in congress or senate.

You can drill down and bitch about this part or that part of the health care bill but nothing is going to happen unless we come together left and right.
You have 1.7? million dollars a day arrayed against you.

A majority of people want health care not a proctorial proceedure.

Don’t be a data point, or consumer, we are humanity.

i am a daily reader… occasionally comment – i type slowly so hard to keep up with the gang here… i am so disappointed with BO and the DEMS! its just nothing left for me to say…

Sen. Joe “60th vote” Lieberman said he couldn’t vote for a bill with those. Really it’s that simple.

It would still be nice if we could get greater cost controls via a PO or *something*, anything. Saving $1.3T over 10 years sounds good, but we should be able to do better than saving only .13%/year.

Now that everyone is riled up and emotional what we really need is fast-thinking creative minds to overcome the remaining hurdles and problems. Fix errors, problems & omissions and keep moving forward.

Sorry dear, but just because I work fulltime does NOT mean I can afford the Ins. that is offered by my employer. Please refrain from making assumptions and accusations.

Also, because my sons CHOSE to enter the military does not exclude me from feeling as though I have contributed to my country. I do not wish for them to die in Afghanistan.

We’re already taxed to give money to ERs. Hopefully the mandate will direct the money toward more effective & cheaper healthcare.

And Merry Christmas in it’s best sense sans religion just friends and family in joy and love.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igt3SJH-bRY&feature=related

Party on dudes and dudettes

We’re not asking for a UK style National Health Service! All we want is to have a fucking totally useless and expansive Shylock like middleman cut out of the business of deciding who does or doesn’t get healthcare and how much we will have to pay in order to generate sufficient capital gains for a offensively greedy investor class?!

Healthcare should not be allowed to be measured by the degree of happiness it’s unholy profits instill in the hearts of Insurance Industry stockholders. Period!

Thanks Powwow! And thanks to Jane Hamsher! Firedoglake is the best Blog on the Net, IMO. I read many every day and I find far more thoughtful and pertinent comments here than any of the others. I’m happy to hear Punaise is still around — I love the puns! The LHP comment is a mystery to me but it’s always fun to have a little mystery in our lives, right?

Happy Holidays to all!

Good thing for the tens of millions this will help that Jane has been working her ass off to make this a less shitty bill. And what have you done to prevent the bill from being a total industry giveaway with no redeeming aspects? Who were you saying is irrelevant?

I find that the For Profit Model of Health Care is just morally incoherent. How can Profits be justified over saving one person from death or worse a life of pain and misery because treatment was withheld?? It is just wrong at all levels of Humanities moral compasses!

Hi! I’m de-lurking, per your request! I’m kind of conservative, but I like you guys a whole lot more than most of the progressive blogs.
I’m having trouble understanding what the progressives are doing about health care. If you agree with me that the current bill is an awful give-away to insurance companies, why can’t you get some of the Congressmen who think like you to stop it? My goodness, we conservatives got 40 out of 40 Republicans to oppose the bill and threaten to filibuster! Couldn’t you get 1 out of 60? Why does Joe Lieberman have more power than Barbara Boxer? Either one could force a different bill. Isn’t there one Congressmen who feels the way you do? I don’t get it.

Check this out From the PeaceTeam
You can sign a petition Demanding to be able to sign up for Medicare!!

VIRTUAL MEDICARE SIGNUP ACTION

Use this page to tell President Obama and your members of Congress that YOU want to sign up for Medicare too!! If we want any real change, FIRST we must DEMAND it.

Think about it, folks. They would not be on the TV trying to sell us so hard on fake reform measures if they did not NEED our acquiescence. When enough people declare that we will no longer settle for coal in our Christmas stockings, then and only them will we get the real deal.

Kill The Bill Baby Kill The Fucking BILL!

This health care makes me so angry my teeth hurt. No competition. Mandated payments to private corporations. Absolute disregard for women’s health issues. And cowardly Democrats including my own beloved Sen. Feingold, who places blame for no public option at the foot of the president, but STILL voted for the bill! Grrrrr. Even Paul Krugman! These so-called progressive pundits and politicians could find a way to justify all women of child bearing age donning red, white and blue burqas as a solution for birth control. And Barack Obama, Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi would cheerfully agree because this is an historic moment. Very. Very. Angry.

So Obama and his lackeys decided that choice, where in one instance the 98% of People are stockholders and their profits express themselves through lower premiums and lower deductibles, will be disallowed as it would cut into the capital gains of Wall Street’s class of stockholders.

Join the New Democratic Party!

Where the many are now required to sacrifice for the sake of the few.

I’m curious how Will-I-am and Shepard Fairey feel about OBAMA now? And if they are discouraged, I wonder if Jane couldn’t convince them to broadly and visibly express their sentiments!

You are so right. Corporate control of both parties is the deepest threat we face. The Senate HCR bill is just the most recent demonstration of that threat, which is why so many of us support Jane’s call to kill the Senate bill.

I don’t know whether we will have any leverage over the conferees appointed from the House. I just pray we can find a way to persuade the conference committee to reject the most blatant sell-outs in the Senate bill.

A question. If we agree that Corporate control is the problem, why are we not addressing corporations rather than politicians? It would seem that politicians continue to ignore “outsiders” as long as corporations have the power of lobbyists and plenty of cash. If the corporations are holding the reins of government, how do we loosen their grip?

Un-lurking, because the world needs more lurks to do so.

I will accept decent health care from whomever decides to give it to me. Be it the VA, a radical Democrat with a socialist agenda coupled with Marxist tendencies, or a makeup-less Dr. Love…I am not real picky.

Guess I would agree with about 243 of you on here so far…kill the bill, arrest Karl Rove and let’s fill some FEMA Camps up with the John Yoo’s and David Addington’s who still wander the Homeland freely.

Thanks Jane!

Who said it was blind faith? That’s an assumption on your part. You know nothing of my involvement with or my knowledge of the IWW.

Your own words. Organized labor is exhausted itself and is no longer worth having around during election cycles, given the costs it exacts.

Why not address the proposition of the left disposing with labor in elections if the right disposes of corporations?

Theoretically it could work with boycotts. Unfortunately whether one gets sick or not is not a matter of choice. which is why Obama’s bull is so fucking immoral, unethical and just plain wrong, that Democrats should just turn their backs on him during his next public oratorial junket.

Un-lurking is very therapeutic!

fuck yes!

all these pols are bought. plus they’re all jillionairs. a third party is our only hope. but we can’t scatter. the green party platform addresses all these issues and has consistently since 1984. if all progressives gang up on one end of the seesaw we can beat both corporate parties. then prosecute the lot of them. hang ‘em with hemp rope. men have no vote on women’s issues. insurance has no place in health care. it’s extortion. the only reason it’s even legal is bribery.

“Why not address the proposition of the left disposing with labor in elections if the right disposes of corporations?” I’m from the right, and I’m in! I’d like to have fair elections again. And fair legislation. This health care bill and the Stimulus bill have been the biggest payoffs from the people to the rich (more precisely, from the politically unconnected to the politically connected) that I’ve ever seen. Except maybe what the Republicans did when they were in power. Anyhow, I’m sick of it.

I am completely on the fence. this bill makes me ill, but it does offer probably the best we can get with the system of government we have now. Not only does the bill have to be acceptable to 60 senators, but virtually unlimited campaign contributions by corporations have put our system in thrall to business. So how exactly are we going to get anything better?
If you think this is bad, wait till the Supreme Court lifts limits on campaign contributions.
On the whole, I would take what we have been able to squeeze out of the system. I don’t think anything better is available.

Jane,

You must be starting to scare the White House consiglieri. Keep up the good work!

FDL has been the first site I check on a daily basis since Marcy was live blogging the Scooter Libby trial. And aside from the ACLU and the Don Siegelman defense fund, it is the only web site that has moved me to regularly contribute money.
I comment when the spirit moves me and mostly I agree with the ladies and gentlemen who post here regularly, especially as they relate to the disappointment I feel when I think how proud I was that the United States was progressive enough to elect a black man to the presidency. I am concerned that we may have been sold down the river in favor of deeply entrenched corporate interests. President Obama may be playing 3d or 11d chess but he is not keeping his word. In the business I’m in you are judged by and held to your word. Your word truly is your bond. One lie dooms you forever.
Sorry Mr. Obama, I will no longer be willing to accept your word unless I can verify what you say through independent means.

If you put the IWW in the same basket as the AFL-CIO and SEIU you haven’t spent 2 minutes finding out what the IWW is all about, but seeing that you’re against unions in the first place I don’t see much benefit in educating you. Xin loi.

We really need to make common cause with Libertarians.

Their Idea about getting government totally out of their lives is so absurd that pointing out Somalia as their government less heaven should quickly cure them of that nonsense. Otherwise we find much to agree upon with them, and certainly more than with Obama’s dreams of Third Way of Faschism.

bluesky de-lurking.

I read here as often as I can but rarely post as I can’t add anything of significance to the dedicated, quality reporting and high-level comments.

I am most aggrieved by Obama’s deceptions, his actions mostly in direct contradiction to what he campaigned on. I feel, with a few exceptions, nothing was negotiated in good faith by the Administration or the Senate.

Too many principles are now at stake in the current version of the Health Bill.

Thank you for your inestimable work in the interests of the people – and for your honesty and decency.

A one time poster and long time lurker, I visit FDL/emptywheel several times a day. The imformation and analysis here is unsurpassed. But the invitation to activism is the crucial element. There is little Left but this.

Okey doaky no lurking. I got like the biggest crush on Jane, but it’s not like a stalking thingy, please don’t take that the wrong way. You just gotta love the way she handled that pinhead the other day Dylan Ratigan’s show. Always feisty and keeping it to the point, who he really works for, and who pays his pay check. Seems like he wanted to change the subject. I wonder why? Keep up the good fight Jane you’re a champion to a lot of people, and help make our voices heard in venues that other wise would be closed to us.

“On the whole, I would take what we have been able to squeeze out of the system.” Marion, I don’t understand you. You haven’t squeezed anything out of the system. The insurance companies have, and the pharmaceutical companies. Everything is gone from the bill except the deals the president made with them. Loads of normal people are going to end up paying more or paying fines. There are better ways to cover the uninsured.

If you put the IWW in the same basket as the AFL-CIO and SEIU you haven’t spent 2 minutes finding out what the IWW is all about, but seeing that you’re against unions in the first place I don’t see much benefit in educating you. Xin loi.

The IWW would slip through the cracks if put into a basket with the SEIU and AFL-CIO.

SouthernDragon, it is 2009, almost 2010, and the IWW has not been a force to be reckoned with for almost a century.

Ooh, unwilling to let me into the Skull and Bones of Joe Hill!

“We really need to make common cause with Libertarians.” I’m not a Libertarian, but I understand you. I really feel sick about what’s been done here. As it seems to me, the powerful insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies won, and the powerful hospitals and doctors lost. The powerful trial lawyers got to dodge the bullet since only Democrats wrote the bill.
The rest of us have had no say in all this.

great question! Seriously, we should have a separate thread dedicated to your question: what should be done to loosen the grip of corporations on our elected politicians?

Feeble attempts at reform in recent decades included: McCain-Feingold campaign financing restrictions; product safety laws; Sarbanes-Oxley demands for honest accounting …. There must be others but I’m drawing a blank.

If we could force teevee channels to broadcast election campaign ads for free (since we own the airwaves), we could start to make a dent in the cost of political campaigns.

Don’t forget the payoff to the fossil fuel corporations at Copenhagen!
That was treason against the citizenry by ALL the leaders in attendance, including Obama.

Lurker/First time poster…

Jane, I completely agree with your position on HCR. Please keep up the good work.

It pains me to say this, but at this point, I’ve had it with Obama and the Dems. They have all disappointed me. I won’t be giving them anymore of my money and I will just sit at home in 2010 and 2012. I don’t think it will matter any way. The republicans will use this disaster against them and the result will not be pretty.

They are so foolish to do this….

BTW Jane, I love your smile. Especially when your were nailing Lanny Davis on the Ed Show.

A thread devoted to what we should do would be great!
My suggestion is that we all stop paying taxes until some reforms are put into place – like campaign reform.

I think Starbucks in New York would disagree with you on IWW not being a force to be reckoned with. Yes, it’s over a hundred years old and doesn’t have anywhere near the membership it did. Membership is increasing, however, and their principles haven’t changed since the days of Joe Hill. You can’t say that about big labour. There are no secret clubs or rules in the IWW so your wiseacre statement is misplaced.

Campaign Finance Reform has a finite lifespan, as the Citizens United case is going to come down in a matter of months which will obliterate any distinction between individuals and corporations as pertains to campaign finance controls.

I think Starbucks in New York would disagree with you on IWW not being a force to be reckoned with. Yes, it’s over a hundred years old and doesn’t have anywhere near the membership it did. Membership is increasing, however, and their principles haven’t changed since the days of Joe Hill. You can’t say that about big labour. There are no secret clubs or rules in the IWW so your wiseacre statement is misplaced.

Why do you insist on not answering the question? Would it be a fair trade to dump labor from the left’s electoral coalition if corporations are banned from participating as well?

Waxing on about out-anarchisting a fellow poster does about as much to advance the debate as organized labor does.

entirely aside from the facts that boycotting payment of taxes is illegal and puts you in the slammer, why would corporations give a damn if we stopped paying our taxes? We need to attack corporate control over people we elect. There are several score progressives we trust in the House, let’s ask them what we should do to loosen the grip of corporations on our politicians.

go to http://youstreet.org/ there you Can join in the fight to make all Federal elections financed with Public money!

Another option is to slow down the profit machine by slowing down commutes in the big cities, clogging transit and the roads, and doing everything possible to make it as difficult as we can for them to continue business as usual.

I’m curious how Will-I-am and Shepard Fairey feel about OBAMA now?”
I wonder the same thing.
“It’s a new Day”, remember that President Obama?
Still one of my all time fav songs.

Meet the new day, same as the old day.

The lurker AttilaTheHen reporting in to the mothership. I will continue to absorb as much of the invaluable information provided here so that I can inform and educate my friends, acquaintances and clients about the crucial political issues.

The existence of FDL gives me hope I can believe in. Don’t change!

Jane will be on the Ed Show coming up RSN!
Can’t wait to see what she has to say about Killing this POS HCR!!
edit on MSNBC…

Damn Jane sure knows her shit!! With a mandate kill the bill get rid of it and maybe OK??

A good way to de-lurk is to not be signed out all the time! My password is a stinker!

I hates gettin’ logged out. It makes my bad ass think I’ve been banned.

Hey, was this site being hacked about an hour ago? My puter went coo-coo trying to get to Firedoglake, completely failed, and locked up other programs too.

I am a lurker, I registered today. I was appalled to read a certain diary at the orange place. Love FDL, Jane you did great on Ed!

I am so very, very disappointed with the bill and what is going on. I never for one minute believed that Obama would fight for us and still I had a small shred of hope in my heart that I just felt sour because my candidate didn’t get nominated to run for prez. I am so disgusted with the Democratic party, it’s mind boggling that this is happening.

So sorry Jane for the nastiness yesterday, some people are just total dolts.

Hi Jane and all the Firepups- Your website was the first one I subscribed to in 06-You had published an article by a female Iraqi doctor describing the conditions she and Iraqi’s were enduring and I thought- Here is a site that is actually talking about real humanity and not just polical manipulations. I and I am sure a great many others deeply appreciate all of your courage hard work and intelligence on our “health care tragedy”.I appreciate the thoughful and humane commentary here.You (firepups) could be a little to more open to new commentors though -Sometimes I feel it is a little like people literally talking across a private lake. (I mean that in the most constructive way possible) You guys have some truly inspired thinking.

nope… things are fine over here..

I really liked the cooties based political reasoning that I saw in one of the kos blogs, ostensibly written by a woman of color who’s apparently never watched an episode of Dave Chappelle and was outraged at a pic of Joe Lieberman in blackface. As an American Jew, I am outraged every time that Lieberman does not appear in blackface.

But seriously, this idea that if we disagree with someone on one issue, such as abortion, that we can never work with them on any other issue ever is the 4th grade school lunchroom theory of cootie politics. If cooties even exist, they attach to the action, not to the actor unless EVERYTHING they do generates cooties, and that hardly happens.

Having worked with a fuzzy collective of community folks to put together coalitions to win elections and legislative victories in San Francisco, I’ve seen a coalition or two come together to win. Politics is mathematical, winning politics plays the math of addition and multiplication, losing politics, the math of subtraction and division.

If you’re going to join the contest the only thing that matters is the margin of victory. So long as someone you disagree with most days agrees with you on this today, there is no reason to make temporary common cause without compromising your values. Hell, you might even learn that “the others” are actually human, have a drink and figure out how to smooth over divisiveness and have real conversations. That’s the first step towards figuring out how to live together with people you disagree with, cause none of us are going anywhere.

The Democrats don’t realize that their electoral coalition is in tatters while their governing coalition cannot get them reelected or do much to limit the damage in the mid terms.

Bernice Johnson Reagon got it right, cited in a diary, that we’ve got to get out of our comfort zones if we’re going to be building the kind of populist movement that the task before us requires.

Hello Jane,

I’ve been with you the whole way thru so-called HCR. Without your tenaciousness, the crappy senate bill would be even crappier. I have always been a skeptic, however, of any alliance with people who call themselves libertarians but culturally hang with the far right. Occasional joint communications on a tactical basis might work, but I just don’t trust where their hearts are. I guess the concept of an ideologically-neutral libertarian is kind of like sasquatch to me: I hear about them but I don’t believe they really exist. Thus, longterm strategic progress with them is questionable.

But regardless I will continue to read FDL every day, and now participate more.

ChicagoJack

the corporations own the msm, the voting machines, blackwater homeland. but we have the trump card: the general strike. it was the straw that broke the soviet camel’s back. but not just for a day. go down to the co-op and get a big sack of beans and outlast them.

Dear Jane and the rest of the Firedoglake bloggers:

I want to thank you all for the work that you have done on the health care reform debate. In the beginning of this debacle, I did not want to believe that Obama was the cynical liar that you and others on Firedoglake portrayed him as. I was all for giving him a little time to get his act together on this important issue, and I was willing to see if Obama and the other Democrats in Washington would respond favorably to progressive political pressure.

Months later, and…Well…Uh….Oh, this HCR bill really sucks! Anyone who believes in empiricism should have no doubts that you all were right from the get go about Obama’s intentions.

It is depressing to acknowledge that Obama is one hell of a liar and corporate sellout. I was not an enthusiastic Obama fan when he first got going, but I thought, “Well, MAYBE he means some of what he says during his campaign?” It is not like I am some youngin’. I’m 46 years old, and I have been around the block when it comes to broken election promises, but this recent shit from the Democrats??? It is not only pathetic, but it really blows the mind when it comes to epic failures.

It’s 6:30 pm central i just got home from work 295 comments is there anything left to say. how do i feel about the whole sorry routine Pissed off but not surprised i’m not one of those people that invested much hope in the chosen one, seen that movie too many times i voted for him because the other choice was appalling in retrospect i should of stayed home i shall next time. years ago when my granddad was asked why he didn’t vote said ain’t none of em fit to haul guts to the buzzards i’ll be damned if i’ll endorse them. amen.

Jane and FDL Family,
I’ve been reading you guys fairly religiously for the past ~6 months. I consider it to have been a real education, specifically Marcy’s take on the whole torture/wiretapping/state secrets thing, and the coverage of the healthcare sausage factory that spit out the travesty Obama is calling a victory.

Posted my first two diaries over at the Seminal today, so consider me de-lurked.

As angry as I am over what I perceive to be Obama’s betrayal of the progressive community, I believe we have no choice but to work to elect more progressive Democrats in the 2010 election. I respectfully disagree with the talk of no HCR bill is better than this thing (we should still fight to improve it in committee) and the talk of third parties or teabagger alliances. We need your FDL leadership in Democratic electoral politics between now and Nov 2010 if we really want to vindicate this year’s betrayals. The only thing that can save the Rethugs is for the Dem’s to divide over Obama/Rahm/Reid’s betrayal rather than attack the center. Thanks for all you do.

I remember, Dr. Miriam.

I’ll add my thanks and appreciation to Jane and the rest of the FDL crew for their tireless work on behalf of progressives.

This original sin of this HCR monstrosity was Obama’s secret meetings with insurance and pharma companies to gauge how much change they would tolerate. As some will recall, this is the same thing Bush did with the energy comapnies in the first months of his presidency, and we progressives didn’t have any difficulty calling that out as a corporate sellout.

We’ll never know what would have happened if Obama had taken the opposite tack, to identify the private insurers and pharma as public enemy #1 and rile up the people against them (and the big banks, energy companies, etc.).

Such an effort almost certainly would have failed, but at least it would have defined the issues in good, left-populist terms. Something we could build on in future elections, etc.

As things stand, this monstrous bill will fail anyway, in terms of both public policy and party politics. And nothing has been done to advance a progressive alternative.

Been a lurker since the Libby trial,first time to comment. My key board skills are not the greatest and by the time I transfer whats on my mind to the keyboard the thread has moved down the road a few miles. Really great minds post here. thanks for all that all of you do.

:-) This must be the place. Hello to all! I just joined yesterday, but I’ve been lurking for a few weeks THANK YOU- SO much, Jane Hamsher and all who have & are working so hard on sorting this stuff out. I am a political freak, but have identified/ voted with democrats all of my life & occasionally, paleocons (I haven;t ventured into Dr Paul’s realm- yet. I guess the “recommendation” here is motivating) but I think this notion of coalitions is an excellent idea! Divide & conquer has worked for too long.
I wasn’t expecting mountains to be moved after last Fall, but I sure didn’t expect what’s happened this year, either.

Jane,

You are on the right track, do not compromise your principles. I was wondering how long it would take you to publicly denounce this bill and pleased the wait was not too long.

IMO, the best use of your skills would be to organize against the corporations. The politicians take us for granted, but one or two corporations put into bankruptcy by your organizing skills would put fear into them and slow down their effect on the hill. You/we cannot effectively pressure the politicians, but we sure can put a corporation out of business. The others will take notice and you actually could become the most powerful woman in America if your motives and methods were able to remain pure. I think you have it in you, and I’d be with you all the way.

I already regged the domain name, just waiting for the spark. :^)

Be good

I have written a number of post on this blog about healthcare. It time to formulate a plan about what we have to do short term and long term. We have to moblize and organize like never before. We need to continue to put pressure on Obama try and get what we want in this healthcare bill period. At the same time we need to think about the DEMS and REPS from both houses who we are going to take out. 1. NEED TO GET A MILLION PROGRESSIVE to contribute 10 dollars a month for entire year of 2010 that a 120 million dollars for the entire year. At the same time organize ourselves in those state where we want to take out those senator or House members who chose to vote against there constituent interest. Why do this it apparent to me that Obama is not fighter more of a pretender of being a fighter. We must not align ourselves with teabagger or other crazies who have been bought off already by special interests. We must do this on our own with help from those who are willing to do the work that is needed to be done. I have sent you numerous ideas,but it time to stop the talk and take those actions which are necessary now. Looking forward to listenng to your ideas on this matter. By the way the same thing is going to happen on climate change,regulatory reform,economy etc.

I was feeling pretty despondent about the whole thing, but now that I’ve had a day or two to think about it, I’m actually feeling pretty positive. To me, the first lesson to draw from the whole experience is that the progressive wing of the party really does have some power — it was when we started to say that we could walk away from the bill that the compromising stopped, and now, in fact, it seems that some things might be put back in. Second, I am amazed at the size of the network that is out there for progressives — there are TV shows I can watch (well, two, but still…), blogs, and bloggers on mainstream TV shows like MTP, etc. — contrast that to just a few years ago, when we had to go to Daily Kos just to get any reinforcement at all. Third, I think we learned that a we have a friend or two — Howard Dean, certainly, but maybe a few others as well (none, apparently in the Senate). Finally, I think the lesson we should learn from this is simple: Fight earlier, fight harder, fight louder, fight smarter, and be WILLING TO WALK AWAY. You’d be amazed how rarely you actually do have to walk away, but without the willingness it is impossible to negotiate.

Jane, you work your ass off for us all and I for one greatly love and appreciate you for it. Happy holidays and we’ll be here with you in the New Year.

Don’t know you personally, but if I did I’d say “Fuck It! Let’s Get Some Shoes!”
This is for you. To lighten your day. It’s one of the funniest music videos I’ve ever seen (contains strong language)-but it’s also SO inappropriately fitting right now. Has a Lieberman-like spoiler, in-fighting and robots! Enjoy!

http://www.logoonline.com/video/kelly/317337/unedited-shoes.jhtml?id=1596873

I think we need to take out those DEMS and REPS where there is an opportunity to do so. We have that opportunity. All we need is the right kind of plan and start to execute it now. For example taking out Lierberman.Lincloln,Nelson and Landreiu should be a top prority of removing them and replacing them with true progressives. By the way Obama is a pretender not a fighter. By the way I have offer a plan to Jane. CHECK IT OUT. I think Jane can become a powerful force and change the dynamics of the DEM party. Talking is not good enough

Just discovered this blog a couple of weeks ago and have been lurking almost every day since. This is a great site, and I look forward to reading more. However, like some others who have commented here, I find it difficult to keep up with the pace and will probably continue to be a lurker.

My 2-cents on the healthcare legislation – Ralph Nader was right. Progressives need to abandon the Democrats.

ExLurker here, regular reader. Health care should be an individual right and a community obligation, just like fire fighting, police, and a fair justice system. We’re all in this together. Single payer makes the most sense. I haven’t had the patience to follow the details of the legislation but mandates will be a disaster for progressives.

Over the years I have come to trust Jane and most of the other writers at FDL. I spent my life back and forth as Green, Independent, and Democrat. It’s time to leave the Democratic Party. It has lost its chance to lead with integrity by being part of the biggest financial crime of all time, and by covering up and continuing the war mongering totalitarianism of the Bush regime.

I would love to see progressives open their hearts to the populist energy that the right is busy exploiting. Aikido, deflect their energy, guide it to a helpful place. The financial crimes of Wall Street and the hijacking of our economy by the FIRE (financial, insurance, real estate) sector need to denounced, investigated and punished. If we can’t bring the government to do it, we must on our own.

Citizen Jane

I am poor with words, but I know the center of this blog experience, the interplay between you bloggers and us posters (well, I barely qualify as a poster) was when in a recent crucial blog on healthcare a poster responded, “I want to have your babies!”. She/he represents all of us. There is a closeness here that is intimate but chaste.

Lead the charge. We will follow.

First time here. First of all, auto insurance is not the same as health insurance. You are NOT required to insure your car. You are required to insure yourself against damages that you may cause to the other party.

I stopped voting Demican and Republocrat 20 years ago. I vote only 3rd party. Made an exception for Obama…oh well.

Only total campaign finance reform can save this country. Free elections, no bought candidates. No corporate donations. Period.

Welcome to The Lake!

The so-called HCR bill appears totally unprincipled- unless you count things like the furtive narcissism of Joe Lieberman, Ben Nelson’s political greed, etc.

I think Quentin Tarantino said it succinctly: KILL BILL.

I’m down with you on this one, Jane.

What are the potential bottlenecks we can hope might afford an opportunity to kill this thing? Who (which Congressmen) should we contact? I was writing and calling Sanders’ office. No dice, apparently.

amen. a movement to establish a progressive majority in Congress, with a commitment to reproductive rights and universal health care!! (can anyone say single payer??) No bloodbath, no “club for growth” purity tests, just a clear statement of priorities- progressives will TURN OUT for candidates with these basic commitments. progressives will stay home (not give, not help, not vote) for candidates without those basic commitments.

Having frequented this site for over five years, I recently de-lurked to comment on two things in the HCR debate: Biologic drug market exclusivity and drug reimportation.

I’ve learned a few lessons these past four weeks:

1. Pig wrestling is more productive.

2. People raising your voices here today be warned: There are only choir robes for people on Jane’s side of the room. The prettiest robes and the best seats in the choir loft are reserved for the “locals” that surf this break every day. You’ll recognize them by their position at the top of every thread, “Zed” and “First” are common acclamations, regardless of the seriousness of the OP.

3. The rest of you will have to stand naked in the face of their seasoned and jaded, moralistic taunting, if you want to speak up. NEVER Disagree with Jane, they’ve got her back, and will pull out their scimitars very quickly, lest dissent be heard.

Long time lurker here. Thanks for the invite.

As a Marxist and labor unionist, I am never surprised by the loyalties of the inner circle Democrats. These inner circle power elite do not share the desire for change that is prevalent with us.

This country is ruled by Capitalist and will continue to be so as long as they find ways of killing our sense of hope. This is exactly what the Obama team has done.

They have killed the momentum, disillusioned the base and once again reserved the right to do whatever best suits their class interest.