Welcome

Jane…Thanks for doing this. BTW “Predicted Access” = “Predicted Axis”*? Or perhaps there’s a bit of post-modernist play/punning in that “error”?

* Maybe you’ve shifted the debate off the “predicted asses”?

I saw that DKos post a while ago.

It is clear that many people can type, but many people can’t read.

Weird!

I’ll be damned, the login worked. Jane, I waded through a bunch of that crap at Orange & am truly astonished at the depth of idiocy to which some of those fuckwits go. Have to admit I don’t always agree with you, but that, in my book, at least means that I understand what you’re saying, which is, in and of itself, refreshing. Keep up the good work, and, as a member of a rural community that leans pretty damn libertarian, I can only agree that cooperation with them can, and must, be an option.
a

Not one of DK’s better moments.

Even my dogs don’t always agree with me. But when we have a difference of opinion, we always agree that they win.

Doesn’t work for everyone, though. But welcome!

Reads like a semi professional troll job to me. Reverse teabagology. /s

Well done, Jane.

Seems Lanny Davis’s defenders have been playing some cards.

Keep up the good work Jane!

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I couldn’t believe one Stupak thread over there. About 1/4th of the commenters were fine with heaving women’s rights over board.

Some days I feel so much sympathy for Noelle (slinkerwink) it’s not even funny.

You get 200,000 folks in the same room. There’s bound to be a little bit of idiocy. But while you’re over there, don’t miss Plutonium Page’s reporting on the successor talks for START or Meteor Blades’s piece on the phantom hope of an Afghan army.

Who exactly is your enemy?

Here’s the reply I posted to that POS diary by Deoliver on DK.

“This diary is the most violent, hate-filled, in-your- face invective I have ever read on a supposedly liberal/left-leaning/progressive site. I’m new to Kos and if this had been the first thing I’d read, it would have been the last. It got a lot of clicks, but I won’t be back except to find out if this long-winded rant has been removed.”

The “Rec List” over at Orange is completely depressing this evening. We also have “On Jane Hamsher and Manufactured Outrage,” and Al Franken’s booster piece, and something about Al Giordano chewing out “kill the bill” progressives.

Progressives are the New Jersey Nets of politics. Me, I revisited Chris Hedges “Are Liberals Useless?” today, and concluded that there was a lot to it.

The entrenched DC establishment.

Stunning really.

Who knew Lanny Davis had fans?

Jane, we don’t have to hang teabags from our ears though, right?

Yeah, welcome, everyone.

Is there any possibility of imposing a reading comprehension test for Seminal posting? Because the LITERACY FAIL quotient is very very very high over there at that Orangerie post today. Very high.

There’s plenty of support for Jane and critique of the diary (which is pretty misguided and silly), so to paint Kos with a broad brush is sort of lazy. I’ve seen some pretty silly shit here on FDL, for that matter.

That’s what a ‘big tent’ looks like, I guess.

wow, I guess firedoglake.com = redstate.com

The individual you should contact is Tim Lange aka “Meteor Blades”: tleelange@hotmail.com

To me that DKos diary smacks of Roger Stone-style paid rabble-rousing. Including the worst kinds of wingnut imagery to tie to a high-profile liberal activist while misrepresenting her positions is a classic way of dividing a community within itself.

Interestingly enough, Thom Hartmann has been pushing for a few weeks now the idea that the teabaggers and liberal bloggers have a lot in common, it’s the activism of populism. He thinks the two groups should be talking to each other, because of a sense of being fed up with the corporate interests that run Washington.

I do believe Thom is probably right, I’m just not a big enough person to initiate conversations with anti-intellectual reactionaries. But his larger point is that there is a groundswell of popular disgust with how big money owns the government, and that this could be a sign of a sea change in years to come.

Tbogg will no doubt have a welcoming post up for them shortly. In the meantime, there’s always this.

Anyone who doesn’t see the potential for left/right coordination in the face of the oligarchy isn’t paying attention. And the media, totally flummoxed by it, absolutely eats it up.

I think that maybe the “Kill the Bill” detractors (thats is where all this is coming from) should maybe just shut up and then politely thank Jane and all the others (Dean, Arianna, ETC) that had the courage to say enough is enough. They wouldn’t have gotten such a harsh response if what they were saying wasn’t true.(and politically powerful)

The Corporate Dems (including Obama) would still be giving things away if they hadn’t cried foul. (Call it a finger in the dike of capitulation)

And I would join ranks with the Libertarians in a fraction of a second if they had a mountain of people marching for Campaign Finance Reform.
(When will American citizens realize CFR is JOB ONE.)

Keep up the great work, Jane
(Loved the Lani-smackdown)

That’s what it looks like to me, and rather an odd looking post, attempting to use race as a wedge. While a split along racial lines could, I guess, be possible, I wouldn’t be inclined to pay much attention unless or until there is a more articulate spokesperson for that point of view.

It’s working.

They are splitting us to smietherines.

I found it odd that someone who listed feminism and anti-abortionism would be okay with the Democratic party. I’m not much of a feminist, my feminist friends tell me, and even I am appalled at the Dems doing this to women. The fact that they don’t even apologize and that even the women sign on like Nelson can hijack women’s rights but they have no right to play hardball right back (never mind the ramifications of this new way to get your amendment that was voted down by the Senate inserted in a bill anyway) really appalls me.

What’s next? Appease rednecks who still haven’t got over the Civil Rights movement in order to get a bill passed? But I’m so cynical over this move that I think they might be calulating that they can attract some pro-lifers to cement what they want to make their permanent majority.

Hello! I’ve been reading FDL for a bit over the past few weeks but now I’ve decided to join. I’ve been at DKos for about a year and a half and I think it went insane tonight.

Done. Thanks.

All you need to know about Kossacks is they invited Harry Reid to their first “convention” and then spent two years after kissing his ass and getting very huffy at anyone who pointed out what an incredibly awful “leader” he was. Kos himself is useful at times on TV, but he really doesn’t have much to do with that place anymore (aside from cashing the checks).

Thanks for the link, Jane. I try to read all I can and come to my own conclusions. I never sit in the amen section of blind idolatry and try to call things as I see them. I always leave room for the possibility of being wrong, but I fail to see how rewarding bad actors is a benefit–as in health insurers. Perhaps one smarter than me can explain it.

I believe that what has happened is that some people are perfectly willing to horse-trade some peoples access to affordable health care for others. Clearly those aged 45-65 are going to take it on the chin, as are those who a relatively healthy and under 45, who have avoided paying for insurance coverage except out-of-pocket.

And women…who will all have to go into a system not unlike those deeply impoverished individuals on Medicare who have had their access to Family Planning restricted. Ever wonder why unemployed poor women consistently have birth rates higher than working women with decent Health Care coverage? Lemme tell you, it’s not because they have a full range of Reproductive Options and Education. Talk of abortion by a doctor or nurse (and even discussion RU-485) is denied women who are on the “Hyde Plan” (aka Stupak 1.0).

Now we will get Stupak 2.0…and instead of a $1K procedure of choice we’ll start seeing $10K, $20K and for those births that are particularly problematic (like Octomoms) $5 million pregnancies. Yes, under this Health Care Bill the taxpayer will be supporting thousands of “Quiverful” Families obtaining “full quivers” through IVF, while not allowing women who want to get an abortion any support at all.

When a woman is already going bankrupt with $10K Insurance premiums and co-pays…and is asked to pay another $1K (or more) for an abortion…why not simply opt to carry the pregnancy to term? Because the Stupak Amendment allows for that. Plus if a woman uses any of that subsidy money to pay for an abortion…she could lose it!

The one about Al Giordano is more along the lines of what should be done – the author is not in agreement with everything Al says.

Welcome, indeed. Hello, FDL. I just signed up at FDL having been a Democrat for 30 years and a DK reader since 2004, a poster there since 2005.

Now why would I come and join all you *heretics* here? LOL.
Well, I’ve noted with amusement how the kitten’s share of DK readership has largely given themselves over to Hero Worship coupled with the bashing of FDL and Huffpo.

Yes, I am one of those lost souls who thinks Cheney Bush and Rumsfeld are War Criminals, should have been Impeached, and then handed over to the Hague. Silly me.

Within the Democratic Party, I’ve seen these designated apologists come along year after year who are trotted out from time to time to sell snake oil to rubes. Al Franken’s diary tonite is a case in point.

So I dropped a donut in his tip jar and rolled.

Obama has sold us to the Bankers and Bondsmen, escalated the Wars, and has been running this con on Health Care dressed as *reform* that is nothing but herding people into Junk Insurance. While it allows the Insurance Cos to dump their elderly quite legally through ratings.

Don’t ask me to donate to Dems.
Do not ask me to work for their re-election.
I look forward to voting against every incumbent in 2010, 2012, and, my own health holding, for as many years as it takes to dislodge these thieves from their ability to legitimize themselves.

Welcome! I think DKOS went insane long before tonight.

Thank you Jane for making an effort to unite with those we have something in common with..anything with.

Joe Lieberman, Stupak and Rahm do not speak for me. Abortion is the law. You would never know it to hear them talk.

Divide and conquer is a management technique.Look how the MSM is in overdrive to start a war between Dean and the Obama administration. I am so glad that Dean is not falling for it. He can stick to the issues without slinging mud better than anybody. Unless it was campaign Obama , who bears no resemblance to Pres. Obama.

The divide and conquerers want us to get discouraged and give up. Raise their hopes ..let them down hard. They have to pay people now to comment on their stupidity. The paid people can only throw flames. So tedious. One thing Americans hate is boring.

You, Jane , are the polar opposite of boring.

It is having an opposite effect. We need a third party. How could it be worse than our own democratic party. When the leadership is at war with us. The very ones who got him elected.

Absolutely correct. Widespread dissatisfaction with political posturing and inaction in both parties could and should lead to something useful. But the forces maintaining the status quo are constantly inventing new wedge issues to keep populists off balance and divided. That’s why the polls seem so contradictory: many people on both “sides” support the same positive goals. It’s the job of Rupert Murdoch and many other corporate leeches to keep such commonality from disturbing their cushy lives.

To me, all this is just another reason to value Jane’s courage, energy and originality. One doesn’t have to agree with her on every issue to realize that Jane is a positive force! And in this case, her arguments are hard to refute. Even though I would rather see a bad bill than nothing, Jane may very well be right. The biggest argument against her call to kill the bill is that Republicans and “conservative” Dems want it to die! Those people can be counted on to be both wrong and malicious.

Don’t be rude: a lot of us comment over there also. just because some of them are clueless about some things doesn’t justify throwing them all out.

I’ve yet to attend a ykos/nrn event… but I would love to attend an fdl aggressive progressive type gathering. Fork the centrists.

I got permanently banned from DKos a long time ago. If a site has to do that to stay on message…it’s over.

HuffPo is going through the same thing DKos has done. Paid trolls. Banning for stepping out of line. They will be irrelavent before you know it.It all ends up in the boring pile. That is why the repub websites are so dismal and unnoticed.

Don’t ask me to donate to Dems.
Do not ask me to work for their re-election.
I look forward to voting against every incumbent in 2010, 2012, and, my own health holding, for as many years as it takes to dislodge these thieves from their ability to legitimize themselves.

Here, here. I’d say you’re in good company.

It is obvious they coordinate efforts to recommend these diaries. We need to do the same. How bout an email list? Or an IM list?

Yep

The Firedoglake community of blogs is one of the few places to find up-to-the-minute detailed analysis of all the latest twists and turns in the health care debate. Jane, Marcy Wheeler, Jon Walker, and many others have done an amazing job identifying the vast number of flaws in all of the proposed bills, and well informed commenters add that much more value to the discussion.

DKos front-pagers do some great work, but wading through the hundreds of mostly “me!me!” comments or diaries has long since become a negative value time-sink.

And what the fuck’s up with that “Miz” Jane Hamsher shit? Get a life, moran.

You wrote”and that this could be a sign of a sea change in years to come”

I think we are that cross in the road now.It’s why this sham of a HCR bill should be defeated.

Now ,why exactly has no one called for street protest yet ??
I will be ready anytime folks decide that it’s time to go out in the streets.It’s no wonder our country is in deep shit.Let’s fight to save beautiful America for chrissakes!

The Iranians are out in the streets under threats of death,now what’s keeping us from protesting bad Government….sigh

If they get away with this…well what’s to stop ‘em.And don’t think you can beat ‘em election time.There has been election reform for just this reason.

Rec this up:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/20/817303/-HATEJaneHamsherHATEHATEHATEHATE

I rarely read them.. really quit and never looked back around presidential primary season.

It’s political suicide for the dems either way. This bill is so horrendous that passing it will be just as detrimental as doing nothing. In fact I’d go out on a limb and suggest that this bill is actually worse than doing nothing.

There are still a lot of good people there. I’ll keep posting there, but what happened there was really insane. I posted this comment:

I don’t think all teabaggers are that bad (11+ / 0-)
Sure there are a lot of bad seeds among them, but plenty of them seem like honest people who are turning to teabagging (hehe) because they see people who feel a similar frustration as they do with politics. And now we’re seeing that same frustration on the left. It seems to be a frustration with the corporate takeover of politics, and I think to have as many people opposing that as possible is a great thing.

And then I got flamed the hell out of. People were saying I don’t belong there and the teabaggers are as bad as the KKK and ridiculous stuff. I’m beginning to lose my faith in people in general…

Yeah, OK. Still depressing.

I read an older diary there today which someone here linked to, it was quite good. I’ve not been there for at least 2 years before then.

Okay Jane, I peeked.

The Kos diary is pretty amazing. The KosSacks never, ever put up such invective against the Tea Baggers they are associating you with? I never once saw them posting such extreme imagery. It’s the standard tactic used, however, whenever someone breaks ranks. The diatribes are always worse than if it was from an enemy.

The level of caterwauling about “Who is she…She’s a nobody…” blah, blah, blah also is ridiculous. If you were truly a “nobody” then there would not be such a response. They know perfectly well who Jane Hamsher is, and about FDL and its status as a blog of critical assessment. They’ve seen it’s fundraising capability, and are certainly aware of its analytical reports that have consistently surpassed anything that kos has produced.

While I disagree with you that it is possible to ally with the Tea-Baggers in any tangible way…it is another thing altogether to say that “everything that the Tea-Baggers stand for “We’re Against IT”" represents a standard of any rational discourse or thinking. Like a broken watch, even Tea-Baggers are right twice a day.

Never seen a dKos pie fight, have you? You should have seen the one in 2005 when Markos slammed “womens studies departments” in passing in a diary on another topic. That one pie fight has produced a whole bunch of the strongest blogs in the left blogosphere.

When there’s a pie fight about issues (and this is underneath it all about issues), the left blogosphere becomes more diverse and stronger.

LOL!

Odum is too hilarious!

I’ve never seen a pie fight like this. It’s disgusting. Although, if you’re right, “That that don’t kill me can only make me stronger…”

“everything that the Tea-Baggers stand for “We’re Against IT””

They are against corrupt government and corporations. I know that is one thing we have in common with them.

The KosSacks never, ever put up such invective against the Tea Baggers they are associating you with? I never once saw them posting such extreme imagery.

You missed a whole bunch of diaries, and comment threads in other diaries that posted the imagery and then took it apart.

Who is THIS asshole?

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2009/12/20/17114/437/355#355

And fuck Jane Hamsher. She’s like another Arianna except with bleached short-hair for her signature rather than a heavily-greek accent.

Those of you with TU over there need to drop some donuts on this fuck…

“Top bankers, financiers and the corporate media have launched a ferocious attack on what are in reality timorous plans to tax the banks’ bonus pools outlined by Chancellor of the Exchequer Alistair Darling in his pre-Budget report.
The media and the Conservative and Liberal Democrat opposition parties joined in lambasting the plans as “unsettling”, “economically illiterate” and an “embarrassment”. Bankers raised the spectre of a mass exodus of London’s top earners for more tax-friendly regimes like Switzerland and the Far East, and the demise of London as the world’s second most important financial centre.’

The whole Party Politics paradigm is shifting right under our feet as we breathe.

I am out of donuts on that thread. It is crawling with paid bots.

Boy oh boy, Jane’s got his/her gizzard. Setrak does thoughtful diaries on the AfPak war. Could probably do a thoughtful debate grouped with Ackerman and Siun.

Totally out of character.

Deoliver47 seems a bit constipated about Ms. Jane. Fear not, Kossacks, Ms. Jane has more confidence than Stand and Deliver, and isn’t afraid to link to someone who doesn’t think she walks on water.

The issues worth discussing are about the valid reforms we desperately need to ensure that America serves it citizens and not just its corporations. If they want a government that’s all theirs, they should find one, instead of taking over ours.

I understand why they’d rather take over this one. Lobbyist fees may be exorbitant, but they are a fraction of the cost of paying their fair share of taxes. But they ought not to expect that they or the Congresscritters they attempt to buy go unexposed or unopposed.

Okay, let’s distinguish — between “libertarians” (who existed a long time before there were teabaggers) and the circus that started last summer whose message is incoherent, but who harvested much of the latent discontent because the liberal institutions who should’ve been out there organizing around the bailouts were asleep in the veal pen.

I’ve worked with the libertarians many many times. I’ve never worked with anyone who identified themselves as a “teabagger,” but it’s understandable that people forming opinions about something they’ve never read might make that mistake.

The whole Party Politics paradigm is shifting right under our feet as we breathe.

Thank God. The conservative movement (Buckley era) created the idea of parties as ideological players in a quasi-parliamentary (i.e. high party unity) environment. If that is shifting to a populist-establishment realignment, we might be making progress.

Oh, and did you know that all libertarians or independent voters are teabaggers?

No way. I hate that diarist.

Well, I read the diary and reread what you wrote that upset the diarist. My short version: “Who is this uppity honky chick?”

How gracious of Jane to open her door and invite them. Welcome, look around, kick the tires and take the blog out for a spin around the block. We get rowdy sometimes and are frequently blunt, but we refrain from outright rude behavior.

Sometimes politics do provide strange bedfellows. To outright dismiss ideas based on the group they come from is called prejudice.

Geeezus, have they no moderators over there?

Yes they like to make fun of my hair over there. I know it will never quite look right after cancer, but I’ve come to like my funny blonde hair!

Deoliver47 is sensitive about racism for understandable reasons. The resurrection of the “blackface Lieberman” set Deoliver47 off. Thank Lanny Davis for bringing that one back up and out of context.

Man, you’re hilarious.

Oh, indeed. Sometimes I want to take the most extreme parts of both groups and put them together to see if the resultant matter-antimatter reaction could be a viable power source.

Recommended!! And tipped, too.

;)

Quite the understatement! Didn’t even recognize FDL in the descriptions.

You look mahvelous, dahling.

/Fernando(Billy Crystal)

If they can’t take a joke fuck’em. Happy Holidays pups

The writer uses never having heard of you as a literary device. I do not buy it.

I think you meant women on MedicAID. It is unlikely that women on Medicare would need reproductive services, since they are all over 65. ;-)

Jane, your haircut is badass, you’re beautiful and your courage is an inspiration to us all…

Your hair is beautiful. Your work on this blog is beautiful and is speaking for people like my child who requires medical intervention to live. He has no voice in this debate as no member of my family does. We couldn’t stop the banks from taking our retirement away, we couldn’t stop the insurance companies from raising premiums until we are on the brink of losing our home. And we will not have the ability to stop them from denying the life saving care that they will surely deny my son at some point. Jane, please know there are tens of thousands like us. I count on you to speak for us. I could never express my gratitude to you, I will always be greatful.

The core of Deoliver47′s response has merit.

Bob Barr is no friend to my community, and won’t be one to this one.

Now where he/she got the idea that there was a FDL-Bob Barr alliance afoot, I don’t know. But I do understand the issue she’s pointing to.

Done.

I’m entertaining myself to no end at your expense over there. Just in time too. Really lousy fucking day.

Had to go with:

D: qSFHSAgyasdg

Welcome bobdavies,
Now, I’m actually thinking of not checking this site for awhile. Not because there are wonderful posts and very thoughtful people on here, but I just can’t stand the aggravation. Each day I check there is more an more my government is doing in my name that is totaly obscene.

My two woman senators are going to vote against a woman’s right to choose what happens with her body and are going to give a gift that will keep on giving to the insurance companies. One is up for re-election next year and I will not be voting for her. If I’m going to get a Republican, then I might as well vote for one.

The Kos diary is pretty amazing. The KosSacks never, ever put up such invective against the Tea Baggers they are associating you with?

Ask any cultist: apostates are always regarded as worse than heathens.

Bob Barr’s a member of the ACLU and has dropped the GOP. That’s likely what she’s doing — trying to conflate all independents and libertarians into Bob Barr.

I agree with Jane on everything but…

Hold on, I’m thinking.

In the business of politics you’re sure to get under somebody’s skin
Keep up the good work

Thank you Jane for your ongoing for better healthcare for all!

I read both FDL and DK daily – and that I am sorry to see the crappy diary on DK that misinterpreted your remarks. But I do see a lot of support for your continuing fight for healthcare.

I can never offer adequate thanks to all of the people on many blogs who tirelessly question the poor decisions made by those in power – and who help to elect better representation for our govt.

Who else is out there regularly asking the tough questions – putting people like Lanny Davis and other soulless Lobbyists – on the spot and asking Who Are They Lobbying For? – cause we know He is not trying to help average citizens.

Jane – All of you – fighting for Better Health Care and Better Govt for ALL of US – Thank You!! Keep up the great work.

Oh, that’s what it is? I thought you just had a very expensive stylist. But it’s the smile that really gets to them.

Lanny sure didn’t smile much.

Bob Barr in the past is a notorious racist.

Politicians of both parties have chosen to accept the legalized bribery and quid pro quo system which usually relies on tangible barter that is rampant on the Hill: they swap tis line of legislation for this donation without giving it another thought. They have convinced themselves that having compromised their belief system, they are merely being pragmatic and sensible.

That the sum total of all their petty little individual ethical lapses can amount to monstrous cultural, economic, and moral distortions escapes them on purpose. They have joined with the Wall Street crooks and thieves, failed in their responsibilities to their electorate and merely hired Marketing and Branding gurus to expunge their odious behavior. The net effect is that government has ceased working for the people and has proved itself over and again to be working in fact against them.

Therefore sentiments like: that the government is crooked, that we should stop the Wars, that we should stop subsidizing Bankers, big Agriculture, Pharma, Energy, etc. resonate across many, unto now opposing factions.

It’s here then that we find a hell of a lot more in common with Libertarians and Independents of other persuasions than we find with the Parties that pretend to represent us. And wanting and needing to see major changes take place, it should be evident that we should protect our interests by making alliances with like minded people on issues of common interest.

The Obama marvel was that he was willing to talk to the Koreans, Iranians, etc rather than becoming a knee jerk belligerent. The DKos jerks are acting like the guy who fucked it all up. They are in total intellectual panic mode, making no sense.

I started looking at the comments to that dk dieary; I noticed this one early on:

before questioning her integrity

perhaps you ought to click through and find out whether she actually proposed what this diarist asserts she proposed. because she didn’t!

Jane, Did you notice that I wrote a diary entitled Firedoglake Attacked, Again in response to an attacker on the thread to your The Left-Right Populist Wrap-Around Vs. the Beltway Insiders (Dec 18, 2009)?

I call your attention to it for a few reasons:

1) If you haven’t, I think you should see it.

2) I didn’t read your post at all in the same way that whoever wrote the diary at Daily Kos read it.

As someone who has done his best at Firedoglake since I first entered the blogosphere a few months ago and has been relegated to the frustrating experience of having to guess at what directions you’re thinking about taking from day to day, I suppose I need more clarification from you.

Please clarify. What was the point of your post the other day? Was it at all what that diarist has said it was? Again, not how I read it, but an explicit statement from you would be helpful.

Btw, if we continue on the path we now seem to be on, by the end of this week we’ll have lost this fight with those who want to accept the deal.

As this is going, we won’t even be able to use the failure as something on which we can build next year.

How do you build on a failure like this one? Do not allow the sellouts, the shills, and their enablers calm the waters.

But everyone – including Dean (for reasons I understand, but don’t agree with) – is jumping on board, everyone except us and a few others.

Jane is having a Sistah Souljah moment.

Oh, he is. Which is why the diarist wants to use him as a weapon with which to attack Jane.

Hey Jane did you do something to piss off Markos?
Maybe it’s that you’re on the teevee too much.

Ps I like the hair,just thought it was your style

Thanks Jane, and we welcome one and all over at The Seminal.

Actually, it’s probably driving up the hit count. So it’s all good.

The diary that’s now at the top of the DKos Rec List is one done by someone who disagrees with Jane on a lot of issues, but has enough honesty and integrity to be appalled at the dishonest attacks leveled by the other diarist. This is spurring a lot of discussion and getting the more intellectually honest to come here and see what’s really happening.

I read and post at Kos. And here. And I read 538, TPM, Open Left, Sargent’s Plum Line, and even the increasingly trashed upon Politico.

I don’t consider myself a Kossack or that I have any specific allegiance to any one blog community or otherwise.

I am a guy who is tired of bullshit political rule be it from the Democrats (Nelson, Reid, Baucus) or the Republicans (Boehner, McConnell, any Teabagger idiot) and wants that to change.

I dared suggest on Kos that I was more worried about bad Democrats shitting as opposed to being shit on by Republicans because at least I know what I will get with a Republican. My own Rep, Glenn Nye (VA-02) has sold me out and I want a new Rep, a real Democrat someone who won’t be afraid to be liberal once in a while…not “Republican Lite” which is what he appears to be. I want him primaried and gone…

But God forbid that I suggest that losing a few terrible Democrats only to replace them later with Better Democrats…some people at Kos seem to think that the point is to elect any asshole who decides to put a D next to their name, and frankly I think that is a stupid venture. You might get a Bart Stupak or Ben Nelson that way.

I would kill for a day when this country has more than one party…a Green, or Progressive, or something. I would prefer this country had more of a coalition style of govt a-la Germany or something…

Watch that’ll get me called un-American, but I don’t give a fuck. The two establishment parties have done enough to fuck it up that they don’t deserve to have a strangle hold on political power anymore.

Thanks. I see some names I recognize here, e.g. Tarheel, rossl, etc.

My feeling is : Let’s be honest. There is a fundamental flaw in the DK “more and better” Democrats shtick. Where Hope springs Eternal yet constanstly cycles back to pathetic excuses in attempts to placate the activist base. Who, in all candor, FALL FOR IT.

Pelosi’s Speakership was made possible by the Anti War/ anti Bush vote in 2006. Obama was made possible by the anti War/ anti Clinton vote in 2008.
We’ve elected colaborators who Stay the Course.

The sensible move is to OPPOSE them, come what may, even if – gasp – it means *overt Republican rule. At least we’ll be spared the coin, time, aggravation, and Dog and Pony show.

And I’m not naive about this, however. It’s going to get a whole lot worse before it get’s better. Without doing so, the ruse of faux opposition is perpetuated. It’s time to pull our head out of our ass.

I would ask skeptics and conventional Dems to name one Reform or Revolutionary movement that *won by continuing to fight with cadres of collaborators and by hurling themselves precisely at the point where the King dominates the turf. Washington fled New York. Mao and Castro took to the mountains.

No, I think it’s time to scuttle the Party, well past time actually. Let the Right Wing destroy themselves in full view without the benefit of the nominally Democratic brand as whipping boy.
With any luck, you might see actual Progressives emerge from the wrecks on both sides of the aisle. Better yet, an entirely different, genuinely Progressive political force to be reckoned with.

They even let me post over there.

Nah, not Markos, just one of the pro-Obama hardliners that came to the site during the primaries two years ago. (Remember the primary wars of 2007-8? Things were really, really ugly until Kos started banning the worst offenders. He had to revamp the comment rating system because it was being seriously gamed by Obama, Hillary and Edwards partisans.)

The core of Deoliver47’s response has merit.

Bob Barr is no friend to my community, and won’t be one to this one.

Now where he/she got the idea that there was a FDL-Bob Barr alliance afoot, I don’t know. But I do understand the issue she’s pointing to.

Bob Barr was running for the Presidency as a Libertarian candidate in 2008. If he could’ve gotten on the ballot in Georgia he could’ve hurt McCain badly, something the Obama campaign was actively egging on behind the scenes.

Not too many people would know that — though those at the very highest levels of the Obama campaign certainly would.

I think there was some merit in it but then I’m not a typical FDL arsekisser and I’m not afraid of the banstick either. Yes, you oppose some of the same things as the teabaggers, but for radically different reasons. Suggesting that you are simply representatives of the same tide of populism is nonsense. You are different movements with different motivations and different aims, which overlap some.

This requires caution. A justifiable criticism of the left antiwar movement is that it shared a platform way too willingly with people whose views are absolutely unacceptable, just because they too opposed the war. In particular, leftists shared platforms with antisemites. Of course you can’t help who shares your aims, and you are not an antisemite, a racist or anything at all just because someone agrees with you, but it’s right to ask questions when you start talking about people as your “allies”.

That’s not to say there’s nothing to say to libertarians, but that is not in fact what your HuffPo piece said. You often do this when someone questions you: ignore the forest that you planted and focus on a couple of the trees. You like to switch the goalposts. Either that or you know what you wanted to say and are not really clear that you didn’t quite say it.

Having said that, the tenor of the diary is pretty ugly and the suggestion that you are yourself a racist or support racism is quite disgraceful. I don’t know the truth of the sexism you are said to have indulged in, but I’ve always found “feminists” slightly overwilling to burn their own for the most minor shit and I’m not sure that saying someone has a “sandpaper snatch” even would be considered sexist in anything but the most rarefied circles, given that insulting a woman is not sexist in itself.

Thanks for this. My situation’s like yours. I think FDL is a better home now than dKos for the same reasons.

Done. Too much poo being flung.

I went over to Daily Kos. Those people are nuts. Now I know why I just stopped going there. Huff Po is going in the same direction. That group needs to meet up with the tea baggers.

As I’ve been telling people at DKos tonight, if all indies and libertarians were teabaggers, then why is John Cole of Balloon Juice — who hates the teabaggers with a passion — staying an independent?

No. Which is why he/she tee’d off Lanny Davis’s reminder about the blackface Lieberman graphic. And then saw the piece about the left-right wraparound and either saw Bob Barr’s name in that or made that association and especially the association with teabaggers, the source of the bulk of the imagery he/she posted. And It’s the pain of continued racism screaming. The triggers are incidental and in this case misplaced. But based on the other imagery, that is what it is.

Lanny scores one with his playing the race card.

Kos doesn’t just ban offenders of decorum. He bans people who don’t agree with him. HuffPo is the same way now. Comments dumbed down and took a nasty tone with new management.Took a sharp right turn.

The problem with having three or even four viable political parties in our electoral system it would be entirely possible to have a President with only 26% of the popular vote. Just imagine how much power a Senator like Lieberwitless would have then.

That’s not to say there’s nothing to say to libertarians, but that is not in fact what your HuffPo piece said. You often do this when someone questions you: ignore the forest that you planted and focus on a couple of the trees. You like to switch the goalposts. Either that or you know what you wanted to say and are not really clear that you didn’t quite say it.

Got examples?

I believe that what has happened is that some people are perfectly willing to horse-trade some peoples access to affordable health care for others.

I was thinking about this the other day, and trying to create an analogy [I love analogies]. I came up with this one:

Say I meet you on the street one day. You tell me that you have a job, but that the car you need to get to work just broke down/crashed — in any case is totally beyond repair. So of course you’re worried about how you’re gonna get to work [no public transportation where you live.]

Sympathetic with your situation, I say, “wait just a minute.” Then I go a couple of blocks away, pull a gun, and pistol whip the first motorist I see to take his car. I drive the car back and give it to you. [If we're really lucky, there are a couple of bags of groceries -- or even Christmas presents -- in the back seat, and maybe some money in the guy's wallet that got left in the car.]

You are delighted and profusely thank me! You have no idea how I got the car, just that you now have one.

Would it make a difference to you to know that someone else suffered and was now without a car, just so you could have one? I sure hope so.

It seems to me this is what’s happening now, and what’s happened in a lot of the “horse trading” over health care in the past [e.g., increased coverage for seniors, but cut care for kids].

Until we ALL care for each other, we’re just thugs.

PS – Jane, if you’re out there: is there a nice, succinct post somewhere that refutes each of the pieces of crap that Obama and his minions are pushing now re how the health care bill is “not perfect but still progress”? [E.g., "xxx millions will now have health insurance."]

I really hope there is one, and that you could point me to it, so I could cut-n-paste from it to refute some of this crap. It’s making me quite annoyed.

Yeah, libertarians come from an honest position: the rich have what they have because they took it fairly in our “free market,” while the poor are just losers. Isn’t honesty wonderful?

If Jane hates this health care bill, here’s what the libertarians’ health care bill would be: don’t get sick, and if you do, die quickly.

Good luck with working with these smart and caring people.

Nah. Not happening.

The problem with having three or even four viable political parties in our electoral system it would be entirely possible to have a President with only 26% of the popular vote. Just imagine how much power a Senator like Lieberwitless would have then.

Exactly. It would be like those tiny religious-right parties in Israel which have a miniscule portion of the vote, but which are always assiduously courted by the major parties come election time.

Yes, Lanny “Monty Burns” Davis has his apologists, too. No surprise there.

Then there’s the black face image and not responding directly to this. This post by DeOliver might give you some perspective.

This is why I want the Cliffs Notes for replying to the Kool-Aid drinkers.

I do still occasionally post @ HuffPo, and I’d like to be able to cut-n-paste some responses to the Obamabot nonsense.

I don’t get the Kos-hate any more than I get the Jane-hate. He’s always seemed approachable and decent, and the fact that it’s often crazy land over there is just the nature of the beast. More power to him.

Oh, so this poster whom was not aware of you at all, is intimately knowledgeable about the inner workings of the highest levels of the Obama campaign. It stretches credibility to hold both of those thoughts at the same time. Further, it smacks of a planted political hit job to discredit Jane. Meanwhile Media Matters is rooting through Jane’s panty drawer.

I see the “Nut & Slut” offense afoot here. Jane is pissing people off, it seems. You go girl.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I was planning on voting for Boxer but once she said she would vote for anything with stupak language in it I will have to decline. I hope the bloodbath for dems is epic. Perhaps they will figure out that the lobby money does not have the ability to pull the lever on election day.

Libertarians come also from the position that what we have in America is Socialized Corporate Welfare that has nothing to do with hard honest work or merit based pay. They do not reject sensible regulation, and I bet that a proposal and negotiation about running Healthcare as a Utility, (Dutch / Swiss models) that in the end would benefit the economic output of individual entrepreneurs could well generate an agreement.

Let’s talk, let’s see, cannot hurt.

Lanny scores one with his playing the race card.

Vile and obnoxious as this was, I took it as a sign of how desperate he was.

Jane really got to him.

HuffPo is a joke. They moderate comments for language but have soft porn on the front page every day. I can’t stomach that place any longer either.

I’m with you there — as a regular reader and fan of both sites. I have to say a lot of people are on edge with the first year of the Obama presidency and the big Dem margins in Congress. It’s hard not to be given how much we were stroked before the election and how much we are ignored now…

Huff Po the Fox News of the left

This ain’t no revolution. Talk to your neighbors, friends, family, co-workers and get over that pipe dream. And every elected member of the Democratic caucus is not a collaborator, although the forces of collaboration are strong.

What is likely to happen is how revolution happens in the post-Constitution US–through a realignment of the parties. The last realignment happened in the 1960s as the result of the conservative movement’s search for quasi-parliamentary ideologically pure parties contending in national politics. They abhorred the big tent parties that existed then. Well they got their disciplined ideological quasi-parliamentary party, took power, and flew the plane into the ground.

The hapless big tent party that was left, the Democrats picked up the pieces.

The realignment that is likely to happen is on populist-establishment fault lines. The Republican Party still fundamentally is an establishment party that is trying to astroturf populism. The big-L libertarian party is and establishment party that seeks to free corporations from all restraints. There are a lot of little-l libertarians and a lot of little-p progressives springing up, who have some common agendas. The major difference between the two is the role of government and equal protection under the law for minorities, women, and the LGBT community. But those differences are narrowing.

But that realignment will take place within the two parties (unless the Republican Party totally implodes, which looks unlikely). It is actually the Democratic Party that might be the vehicle of that realignment. It is open to change, and there are mechanisms through electoral politics to affect change. But it takes organization and persistence, two qualities that were present in the progressive movement of the New Deal and sorta disappeared in 1968. And it takes the ability to build working short-term coalitions that might not be permanent features of the big tent of a party.

And the secret to coalitions is to not let the other folks in the coalition get on your nerves because they disagree about some issue off topic to the purpose of the coalition.

The work that Jane has been doing in figuring out where the money is coming from that is blocking progress on key issues is invaluable to that transformation. And btw, the transformation will come from local party committees upward instead of at one fell swoop from the national party or the Congressional caucus.

hit and run tr from princessglitterboots, and yes buca is me, and I could sure use the uprate and perhaps a report to the admins.

Odum is too hilarious!

I assmed Odum was serious and found him/her really vile.

MM, Jon Walker made some very good points in his 7:30 am post this morning titled “The Insidious Myth of the Progressive Bill Killers.”

Look again; Odum has a front page post here on FDL from this morning.

And in the comments above, see Jane’s reply to Odum. It’s some might fine snark!

Hey TD…. One thing needs to be said about DK numbers..

Kos has nowhere near 200,000. There are so many sockpuppets on that site it’s freakin ridiculous. Joe Trippi anyone?!? Hello?? Numerous other incidents over the years too. The ratings gamers, etc…
And they’ve gone through wave after wave of “bannings”.

And the sitemeter hits are largely from search engine web crawlers.
Average time on site/ one second.

It’s a Party ATM, but little more than a vent – hole in practice. Crash the Gates the name, trashing Party critics the inevitable game. And Markos, when he gets the mike on T.V. , a very different voice . Nothing like the kind of levelling Jane did with Lanny Davis this week.

I’m sick of it. And as for that bizzare GBCW ritual?
I know more people than I can count in Dem activist meatspace who I referred to the site, hung around and just left over the bullshit.
Which exactly mirrors the Dems political prospects coming up.
Gone with nary a see ya, so long…

Hello, pleased to meet you, I sure feel the same way.

I shamelessly manipulate — Let’s prove you are right..

And every elected member of the Democratic caucus is not a collaborator

They’re just ALL selling us out at the moment. Making it possible for hundreds of thousands more to die and go bankrupt.

People are waking up. I have talked to friends, and neighbors. In fact along with peace Fresno we table and register voters, voters who now want to change their registrations from dem to independent or decline to state in droves. They feel betrayed and lied to. The last time I saw this was before the last election when Republics were defecting to dem. We are losing every single one of them and lots of our own. Just my 2 cents.

Not too many people would know that — though those at the very highest levels of the Obama campaign certainly would.

That is a campaign tactic, like Rush asking folks to vote for Hillary. Not necessarily and endorsement of Bob Barr’s past. But given Obama’s propensity to bring in diverse views (at least to appear to bring in diverse views), Barr would be likely a person he would talk to, given his break with the Republican Party.

But a lot of folks know only one thing about Bob Barr. When he was in Congress he worked against civil rights of minorities.

If Palin were the candidate and Tancredo was trying to get on the ballot for the Americans Only Party in Arizona in 2012, you can bet that the Obama campaign would be working behind the scenes to make that happen as well.

hit and run tr from princessglitterboots, and yes buca is me, and I could sure use the uprate and perhaps a report to the admins.

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2009/12/20/17114/437/1631#c1631

Funny. Back in 2008, during the primaries, I remember Obama running ads urging Republicans to vote in the Democratic Primary (for him, of course) to defeat the dreaded common enemy Hillary Clinton. Republicrats I think he called them.

I wonder. Is that what the Kos diarist means when stating that there is no excuse for ever cooperating with the other side?

Thanks. I’ve been hopping around to various diaries and just didn’t locate the right one(s).

Thank you both.

Well, they damn well have over 200,000 opinions and some of those sock puppets must be fighting with their other sock puppets.

Funnily enough, the Obama camp has no problem working with libertarians and even hardcore conservatives, as was seen back during the 2008 campaign when they helped Bob Barr’s campaign against John McCain.

No, that was pure tongue-in-cheek, which is why Jane recced it.

I was just reminded of what the 2005 Pie Fight on dKos was about.

There was a Gilligan’s Island ad that was posted that objectified women. Some of the women at dKos got offended. dKos in explaining the ad, took a swipe at the “womens studies department” thinking behind the criticism. And the Pie Fight was off from there.

I immediately thought I would soon see that someone has traced this DK post to a PR firm that supports insurance industry astroturf: All those incendiary photos tying Jane to the violently ignorant stuff is the very transparent and ridiculous attack made by someone who is not very bright.
Over the years I have had many occasions to respect the ideas of Libertarians on many issues and to agree with them on many issues, but as Jane says here, usually I had very different ideas about how to formulate the solutions.
Also, I have long been hoping we could get some of the most
toxic issues out of the way and begin to have a conversation with the right wing. The smearing of character and the grossly exaggerated name calling (all of which the DK diary invokes) that the tea baggers have immersed themselves in, and the racist undertones, seems to have put that prospect off further, instead of bringing it closer. But the Libertarians I have met in the past were an intellectual bunch, and they liked talking and debate.

You do know that ‘offensive’ posts are routinely scrubbed by the mods here, right? I’m not sure how the determination is made that something is offensive, but if you are going to say that because DKos has Hide Ratings it’s “over”, then you have to say the same ting about FDL.

tbsa, love you.

Yeah. It actually spawned the first big wave of GBCW (Good Bye Cruel World) diaries, and a bunch of satellite blogs, based on the DKos model but run by disaffected Kossacks, took off. Many of these blogs are still around, and while a lot of their leaders have made their peace with DKos, they haven’t felt the need to reassimilate.

Actually, you’re making a fool of yourself. Keep going.

I left the “centrist” apologist cesspool known as Daily Kos a loooong time ago, and it seems that decision has been validated over and over again by just this sort of nonsense.

Fair enough.

If poor taste made or broke careers, we’d have no one left in Washington. If David Vitter can be “forgiven” for enjoying defecating orgasms while in diapers, if Chris Matthews is excused his similar gushing over Bush’s crotch-in-a-flight suit, the Village bar isn’t very high.

I haven’t much interest in tea baggers’ prompters, like Fox Noise. If tea baggers could see their angst as coming from an insider/corporatist-driven set of priorities, rather than a religious or left-right divide, then we would certainly have much in common economically with them. The combination of resources on policy rather than personality driven goals would help us all, and give insiders a bit of angst for a change.

That might be interesting. One thing that a lot of people don’t know is just how much the organizers of the tea party movement are sponsored by big corporations.

The money comes from
1) The Koch family (big private oil), RJR Reynolds and health insurance companies.

They organized the tea parties, they rent the buses, and they contact the media.
They also use public services so the corporate sponsors don’t have to pay for all the “free advertising” (which is what they used to all PR)

It is corporations taking co-opting the right wing people who are against anything gov./Obama. It also happens to be in line with their agenda.

odum, is that you?

Brilliant! Kudos! You had me rolling on the floor in the comments.

I love you, Jane, but you are being exceedingly dishonest. In fact, despite your convenient denials and spin, you are making common cause with the “kill the bill” teabaggers while you call them Libertarians. I have been defending you lately but you’ve gone too far this time. You’re now as bad as Stupak and Lieberman, who are also collaborating with the Republicans.

Are you fucking kidding me? 45,000 people a year are dying and you’re saying that doing nothing is better than passing the bill, as bad as it is?

What is wrong with you? As bad as it is this bill will still cover a lot of people and save a lot of lives. Then we keep fighting.

Look at the big picture, man.

Yes they like to make fun of my hair over there. I know it will never quite look right after cancer, but I’ve come to like my funny blonde hair!

Well, I think you look hot. [Aww shucks - blush]

You’re not paying close enough attention.

The whole site wants the Senate Bill modified, or then dead. The house has a bill which is just barely ok with Stupak out of it, for whcich Jane and Marta organized phone banks.

Buy into whatever opinion you like, but you don’t get your own set of facts.

TD. I know it’s not a revolution. Hell it’s not even reform. So where you’re coming from about my “getting over that pipe dream”, I don’t know.
And I know about “one fell swoop ism” , having heard it now forever.

Essientially, for me at least, it comes down to a central question: Do you work within the Party or not?
And where is the smart move now?
As supporters or detractors?

Right now, I think it is folly continuing the notion that we are gaining ground so to speak. Plainly we not. We are co-opted.
So do we expend resources within the Party supporting some hoped for influence? Or spend those resources maintaining our small ground while opposing those who screwed us?

Frankly, for all of this Crash the Gates talk about a Progressive insurgency, it was conventional ward heeling GOTV politics with broadband. We put forth everything we could muster: Money, people, Move-On…everything BUT the insurgency tactics.

Anybody want influence some hoped for day?
Fight Back, Fight Hacks, and Bite backs. To coin a phrase….

Redstate is waiting for your call, Jane. They are thrilled that you want to make common cause with them. http://www.redstate.com/dan_perrin/2009/12/20/the-extraordinary-measures-needed-to-kill-the-bill/

and this is underneath it all about issues

ah Tarheel, if that t’were only so. it is all about personalities for the likes of that diarist – Jane’s truth telling gets under their skin – it’s some kind of visceral threat

the background chorus is made up of those not wanting to have their fairy tales fucked with

my gawd, that Hamsher woman shot Macaroni !!!

take a good look everyone, we have some evolving to do as a progressive movement

I’ve been paying attention to Glenn and Jane for years and have given them money in the past. Jane has done this type of bomb-throwing before and it is not helpful to the overall cause in my opinion. Don’t get me wrong. I love her. But I’ve been around this town for 30 years to her 2 and she is acting like Michaele Salahi. It’s not going to work. Unless her motive is simply fame and glory (and money from the Kochs?), just like Michaele Salahi.

You mean like how thrilled President Obama is to be working with Olympia Snowe, Joe Lieberman, Blanche Lincoln and Ben Nelson — none of whom were lobbied to back the public option? (Notice that it was only the liberal and base Democrats who were being asked to compromise — which meant moving towards the positions of Snowe, Lieberman, Lincoln and Nelson?)

Got evidence?

I guess I should do a “welcome libertarians” post too. Though we’ve had folks like Rick William,here in the past, so they know they are welcome. Glenn Greenwald and I were at the Ron Paul convention when we covered the Republican National Convention in St. Paul. We’ve worked with them on civil liberties many times. People are so busy lumping them in with the “teabaggers” that I don’t think they realize they are anti-war too.

I guess there are just some rabid partisans who see their role as defending the health care bill’s tax on benefits and mandates that Obama is trying to force on the country. If our alliance with the libertarians makes them uncomfortable, I understand. Maybe we should do a press release on it just to make sure that everyone knows that we are always open a broad cross-section of ideas and never want to be in a position of advocating for something we don’t believe in out of partisan loyalty.

Again, got evidence? And since when is somebody like John Cole a teabagger?

The bill must be good because bad people hate it, right? LOL!

Once again, coverage does not = access to affordable care.

They do not pin medals on insurers for saving lives.

John Cole is a Democrat and he abhors what Jane is doing as does this progressive Democrat. I was with her until the Huffington Post op-ed and I will be with her
again, but she’s gone too far this time. She is making common cause with the teabaggers and Ron Paul and Redstate. Go look. http://www.redstate.com/dan_perrin/2009/12/20/the-extraordinary-measures-needed-to-kill-the-bill/

I guess I should do a “welcome libertarians” post too. Though we’ve had folks like Rick William,here in the past, so they know they are welcome. Glenn Greenwald and I were at the Ron Paul convention when we covered the Republican National Convention in St. Paul. We’ve worked with them on civil liberties many times. People are so busy lumping them in with the “teabaggers” that I don’t think they realize they are anti-war too.

I guess there are just some rabid partisans who see their role as defending the health care bill’s tax on benefits and mandates that Obama is trying to force on the country. If our alliance with the libertarians makes them uncomfortable, I understand. Maybe we should do a press release on it just to make sure that everyone knows that we are always open a broad cross-section of ideas and never want to be in a position of advocating for something we don’t believe in out of partisan loyalty.

See, it’s evil when Jane does it. But when Obama allies with Bob Barr to hurt McCain in Georgia, that’s A-OK, isn’t it Dalybean?

tbsa’s point, I think, was that passing it may be worse politically than doing nothing.

And the way things are now and appear to be moving forward into the next week and beyond, tbsa is wrong, they’ll pass it and be just fine politically.

Unless Jane and her team has some ingenious plan that they have yet to reveal, which must not include openly joining forces with people who are afflicted by submission-authoritarian issues like the teabaggers, whose leaders are trying to overcompensate for their inferiority complexes and their serious lack of genuine strength and whose followers seek in such a mass movement, to quote Eric Hoffer, “the refuge if offers from the anxieties, barrenness and meaninglessness of an individual existence” (Hoffer, The True Believer, 1951), then tsba is most definitely wrong.

Short of some ingenious plan here that I’m not aware of, we’ve failed to affect real reform in health care and we’re going to fail to use the sellouts’ bullshit victory against them next year.

If Jane’s plan is to use teabaggers as unwitting allies, she needs to do it without fucking announcing it.

If her plan is to join forces with them openly, as some are reading in her public statements, whether they’re there or not, she’ll marginalize herself in no time at all.

LOL. True.

I like RedState. I understand that people who can only see things in rigid partisan terms might get blind with rage over a statement like that, but health care isn’t football, and it’s a mistake to think that everything “our team” does is good and everything “their team” does is bad.

An increasingly small minority support this bill, and they’re going to get more and more desperate as their numbers grow smaller and smaller. I really feel sorry for them, having to defend mandates of 8% of your income, and 2% of your income levied in penalties that the IRS collects if you refuse, just because Obama tells them to.

Sadly, we’ve found the bipartisanship on health care that he preaches but could never achieve. I find it rather ironic that those who are angry at us for making cause with RedState never had a problem when he ditched the public option to make Susan Collins happy, but that is the blindness that blind partisanship induces.

Did you see my comment @ 96?

Bob Barr has become much more libertarian since he started working with the ACLU. His views on DOMA, Medical marijuana, Drug war in general – he’s moved over to the libertarian side.

Libertarians can be kooky. Free markets don’t always lead to good outcomes, and ideologically libertarians will favor free markets even when the outcome is bad. The ideology can blind them.

This is not to say they can’t be allies, and those that aren’t completely invested can agree with some regulation. EG monitoring wells to detect and remediate toxic spills to protect the commons rather than tort law.

John Cole registered last year as a Democrat, but has stated several times that he’s more of an independent and libertarian type at heart. He is not afraid to criticize Obama, particularly on the war and on civil liberties (where he stands with Jane, BTW). And he hates teabaggers with a passion.

But please, continue to conflate independents and libertarians with teabaggers. It means that Obama, when he was helping Bob Barr go up against John McCain, was — gasp! — aligning himself with teabaggers!

And the way things are now and appear to be moving forward into the next week and beyond, tbsa is wrong, they’ll pass it and be just fine politically.

Really?

So are you taking money from the right wingers, too?

Jane, what exactly are the mandate penalties now? I’m reading conflicting reports of this from people.

Oh I share the common goal of wanting to kill the bill with the tea party activists, I just don’t call them “libertarians.” I think the tea party movement engages a broad cross-section of right wing ideologies only one of which is libertarianism, but I agree with them that the bill should be killed. Just not for all of the same reasons.

If you want me to stop believing that it’s a big giveaway to the insurance industry just because someone at a tea party says it is and Obama says it’s not, I’m afraid I’m just not wired that way.

Sadly, we’ve found the bipartisanship on health care that he preaches but could never achieve. I find it rather ironic that those who are angry at us for making cause with RedState never had a problem when he ditched the public option to make Susan Collins happy, but that is the blindness that blind partisanship induces.

That’s what’s so amusing about this. The same people who are forgiving, if not applauding, things like Obama’s catering to right-wingers by allowing Ben Nelson and Bart Stupak to sell out women rather than having Harry Reid submit the Senate bill to reconcilation (and remember folks, the idea that “reconciliation wouldn’t work” is a lie), are suddenly having a fit of poutrage over your working with independent and libertarian voters?

I’m wondering if you’re taking money from Lanny Davis. You sure have his talking points down pat!

More often than not when Markos talks about his political ideology he’ll say he’s a libertarian, and he’s been working on a book on libertarianism for a while.

If people are going to purge the libertarians from Daily Kos, they’ve got their work cut out for them.

No. John Cole is a progressive Democrat as he says all the time. And here is his current post, “Note To Our Progressive Masters,” which is directed straight at Jane. http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=31551

I haven’t commented in forever, but that crap at DKos made me come over (like I do almost everyday) to give Jane some love.

Jane, you rock! I’ve been reading FDL since about 2004 and I’m not gonna stop b/c someone’s all hot and bothered over at the Big Orange. Namaste, Ms. Hamsher and keep up the fight!

Anakin! Chancellor LiebermanPalpatine is evil!

When they first were considered, the penalties — to be meted out by the IRS, which apparently is now the collection agency for Big Pharma — topped out around $1,900. There was some outcry and the fines were tinkered with, though not dropped. This is what they look like now:

Under the Senate bill, people who don’t buy coverage would face a maximum penalty of $95 beginning in 2014. That would jump in 2016 to $750 or 2% of their annual income up to the cost of the cheapest health plan, whichever is greater. In the House bill, violators would pay as much as 2.5% of their annual income up to the cost of the cheapest plan beginning in 2013.

When people buy health insurance on their own rather than through employers, the average cost in 2016 is projected to be $5,500 for an individual policy and $13,100 for family coverage, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

ok, I have a hair comment -

Jane, last time we saw you on tv (Lanny ?) couldn’t tell if it was the lighting or not, but your hair looked silvery – it really highlighted your gorgeous skin – you were a-glowin’

‘course that could’ve been due to havin that weasel’s throat in your teeth, I don’t know :D

Jane, are you taking money from the right wingers, libertarians, teabaggers or the like? It sort of scares me that you’re not answering my question and I’m thinking maybe we should ask, “Who’s paying you?” And what do you mean, you like Redstate? What has gotten into you?

Anyone can hit the donation button, we don’t make anyone sign an ideological purity statement here. We’re much more welcoming to people who have other ideas than that.

I think rigid partisanship that grits its teeth in anger at anyone who doesn’t share all of their personal biases is probably going make people quite unhappy over time. You seem to be quite upset that we open our arms to people who might have different ideas here. We enjoy the exchange of ideas that comes with having people of different perspectives around, and you might find that it’s engaging and makes you think if you give it a chance.

Tross! Good to have you here.

In response to cassiodorus @ 179

I don’t blame you for not noticing my diaries, as no one seems to think very much of what I have to say.

In the following diaries, I’ve cited polls like the one you’ve cited:

Firedoglake Attacked, Again.

Howard Dean, A Leader We Can Believe In.

I’m perfectly aware of the polls.

If that’s you’re best answer to my valid point – that “the way things are now and appear to be moving forward into the next week and beyond, tbsa is wrong, they’ll pass it and be just fine politically” -, then I will never call myself a novice again, not if that’s what passes for political insightfulness around here.

I haven’t always been gracious around here, to put it mildly. I haven’t always been the biggest fan either. But my opinion has changed, not based on words or fancy speeches, or posts, but action. Action! Action is what it is all about. Action is what counts.

Jane you Rock. Rock on! You’re a true champion.

Obama’s embrace of Reagan, Red State’s most favorite Saint, should make you want to vomit to no end.
Why aren’t you?

Your heart is in the right place, but please, do your own fucking research (and I mean that in the friendliest possible way. ;-) Pretty much every post Jane has done in the last 8 months has been in-depth analysis of the HCR debate. Read those posts. Then read all of Marcy Wheeler’s posts. Then read all of Jon Walker’s post. Then, cut and paste to your hearts content.

Nice cherry-pick, D! But sorry, John Cole is not the Dennis Kucinich clone you’re pretending he is. He was a registered Republican up to 2007, and he’s far more of an indie voter than the lockstep partisan you want him to be. And guess what? He agrees with Jane (and Paul Krugman, and Yves Smith) on the Geithner Plan.

That would jump in 2016 to $750 or 2% of their annual income up to the cost of the cheapest health plan, whichever is greater.

The cheapest health plan will be far more than 2% of annual income, and far more than $750. How is the IRS going to determine the penalty then?

Everyone’s exhausted. When it comes down to an actual vote, what can we do? Gotta vote dem. I’ve heard three people today say they won’t vote for Boxer, what will they do? Either not vote at all or vote for Carly, I guess. Give me Boxer.

Hey Mauimom, we’re gonna do that. It’s coming out tomorrow. We didn’t want to waste it over the weekend.

Jon Walker, DDay and Emptywheel: The mighty FDL trio!

I hate Lanny Davis with a burning passion and I love Jane Hamsher with an equal burning passion but Jane is crawling out on a very dangerous limb here and she will blow all of her credibility if she is not careful. I am as disappointed with the healthcare bill as anyone and I do blame Obama. However, not passing this bill is a mistake and will simply lead to a repeat of the healthcare fiasco during the Clinton years.

a wry but very satisfied smile breaks across this tpm reader’s face

Someone should print out that RedState article, thrust it into the faces of Pelosi and Reid and go “SEE?! Tea Baggers and Progressives on the same page (if for different reasons) Is that the kind of bill you want to pass?

And if either of them, or anyone else for that matter can say with a straight face “Yes”, then we immediately start the primary challenge against them.

I go read RedState everyone once in a while to remind myself what the truly insane often look like, but any Democrat who sincerely thinks this is a good bill (I’m lookin’ at you Tom Harkin) they should go read that and then again try and tell me it is.

It isn’t.

When I could theoretically stand next to a raving lunatic tea bagger and scream “Kill the Bill!” right along with them…you know you have a bad fucking piece of real estate on your hands.

If the cheapest plan is more then 8% of you income, you can get a waver.
Otherwise if you do not buy anything you will be fined 2% of your income.

Jane, as someone who’s been an active member of Daily Kos I just want to let you know that there are a lot of us over there who aren’t drunk on the koolaid, and who appreciate everything that you, slinkerwink, nyceve, and others have done and continue to do. Deoliver’s diary was a horrible smear, and an attempt at racial demagoguery that Lee Atwater would have been proud of.

I intend to become a more active part of the community over here, partly because I’ve intended to for a while anyway and partly because it seems that Daily Kos is becoming so overrun with Obamabots like the one who posted the smear diary that it’s just not a place I feel at home in anymore. Anyway, thanks for holding the line on HCR and in general.

This is like Nader taking money from Republicans in 2004. Nobody really seemed to mind that Kerry was taking a hundred times more money from Republicans than Nader was. What was at stake was Nader’s purity.

Allright then Jane. So you did take a check from FreedomWorks, then? Nice.

I’ve written nice things about Red State many times. I like Moe Lane, I think he can be smart. I like Erick Erickson too — we don’t agree on much politically but when we’ve done panels and such together I enjoy him, on a personal level he’s always been very gracious.

Like I say, I have no idea what the political affiliations are of those who are hitting the donate button, there isn’t any place where you have to provide evidence of political loyalty in order to be here. If having everyone swear a blood oath to the party is what makes you feel comfortable in a community, I’m afraid we’re just never going to be in that kind of lockstep here at FDL.

If the cheapest plan is more then 8% of you income, you can get a waver.
Otherwise if you do not buy anything you will be fined 2% of your income.

If that’s the case then I think we’re going to see a lot of people pay the penalties.

Yes, many people see the health care debate like you do, in terms of a “political victory or loss for Obama.”

There are hundreds of millions of other people who will be affected by this bill, however, and I think that what we’re seeing is an alliance of people on the left and right who care more about that than any one person’s political fortunes.

Yep.
I imagine once they see how many,
they are going to jack up the penalty.

that’s assuming that none of the other parties runs a candidate.

And another thing, since I neglected to say it in my previous comment: I agree with you that it’s good to find common cause with people on the other side when they’re right about something. I hope that political reform can be one of the things that we can find common cause with them on, because I believe that fundamental political reform is necessary before we’re ever going to see real reform in other policy areas, such as health care and addressing climate change.

“Even if one grants the arguments made by proponents of the health care bill about increased coverage, what the bill does is reinforces and bolsters a radically corrupt and flawed insurance model and an even more corrupt and destructive model of “governing.” It is a major step forward for the corporatist model, even a new innovation in propping it up.”

“Whether you call it “a government takeover of the private sector” or a “private sector takeover of government,” it’s the same thing: a merger of government power and corporate interests which benefits both of the merged entities (the party in power and the corporations) at everyone else’s expense….”

Glennzilla
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/12/18/corporatism/index.html

Yeah Big Tex! Welcome. We’re delighted to have you here, whatever the reason.

Oh that’s going to be politically popular!

Right. Jane works her ass off for fame and glory. Please. She works for a better America, not for reality tv.

I couldn’t agree more. There has to be a realignment of alliances — because we continue to be fleeced by the same corporate interests no matter which party is in power.

We can do better, and if the old rigid ideological purity parameters have to get chucked to make that happen, bring it on.

Jane,

I really can’t be much use at FDL if you’re not going to respond to what I’m saying.

Comments @ 96 and 173.

But you agree with Erick Erickson politically on the issue of health care reform and you like Red State. OK, then. I assume the check from FreedomWorks was large then.

Every time anyone (including Kossaks) criticize the party or the president, they are quickly accused of being right-wing spies or something of the sort.

Huffington Post? It’s practically Fox News, if you hadn’t heard. Jane Hamsher? She’s up to no good!

The thing to remember is that it isn’t the entire site that feels this way, or even most of the site. It’s just a handful of childish posters who can’t handle full-contact politics.

John Cole is a great guy, and I love his blog, but even he would have to admit he has not done the level of research that Jane et.al. have done on the reform issue. John is also a recovering Republican (not that there’s anything wrong with that). If I could presume, I think his beef with Jane is more along the lines of policy pragmatist vs. political activist. He has said this bill is a piece of shit.

I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that Jane Hamsher’s donor list compares favorably with that of Barack Obama, who has accepted money from Goldman Sachs, Microsoft, and Citigroup, to name a few, as well as more than $19 million from the health industry.

Thanks, glad to be here. Now, can someone point me toward the keg? :-)

I agree totally. I think that political reform has to be our next priority, regardless of what may or may not be next on Obama and Rahm’s checklist.

But that’s not important. Jane must be PURE, you hear me? PUUUUUUUURE!

the self serve bar is on the left — sliding a welcoming draft down the counter to ya

E.J. Dionne writes, “Anyone who wants to change or even abolish the Senate has my full support.”

Harvard Crimson editorial urges to: Kill The Senate. Kill It Dead.

They all must be talking about the Republican led Sanate, I’m sure.

Your purity pronouncement is weak, containing only 8 “U”s.

You will be watched carefully in the future.

It’s a mess.
I sure would not want to try to defend a 2% poor tax.

LOL! I wonder if Lanny Davis Dalybean has applied the purity test to any of the people he’s here throwing interference for. My guess is he’s going to have a hard time finding Rahm Emanuel’s hymen.

LOL!

Thanks Suzanne. As long as y’all have Shiner on tap, we’re good. ;-)

Cassiodorus also neglected to ululate the u’s. Shame, shame…

Welcome, Big Tex! We have lots of frustrated Texans about. You’ll see wonderful posts by Blue Texan midday most days.

True. Know of another political party with a candidate running against Boxer though? Be tough to start now.

Maybe there will be a lot of hardship exemptions as well.

When was the last time you looked at a California ballot? California has an active Green Party and an active Peace and Freedom Party, to name just two.

Penalty for not buying insurance is 2% of income… medicare portion of FICA is 1.65% employee, 1.65% employer. So the penalty as found in Senate bill is less than the current combined assessment for Medicare.

I’m not sure what to think of this, I hadn’t seen it framed in this fashion. The penalty revenue isn’t a dedicated tax,. If it were used to pay for care for uninsured ER care or to expand Medicaid it could be a reasonable solution to stop free riding.

What level tax would be needed for Medicare for all?

Thanks, Loo Hoo. I’ll definitely keep an eye out for my fellow Texians around here, frustrated or otherwise.

Yeah, but you’re getting something for Medicare and FICA. With this, you’re not even getting a public option to fall back on. Instead, you have to buy crappy private insurance that doesn’t cover much.

The “free rider” problem with health insurance is vastly overstated. See Night Owl’s diary of September over at Orange.

As a European socialist DFH I have been disgusted by the whole bait-and-switch with Obama. In the UK we went through it with war criminal Blair. So in the spirit of ‘if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em’ I bring to you The Firedoglake Insurance Plan™. Key features:

$100million deductible. Plan will meet lowest legal standards for mandated junk insurance. Annual premium: 10% of the level set as a fine for not having mandated insurance.

Customers not wanting to buy junk insurance or be fined by the Govt buy the policy, FDL Insurance Inc donates all profits after regulatory costs (the marketing will take care of itself) to fully-vetted Single-Payer candidates to primary the shit out of Nelson. Lincoln et al.

Win-win as far as I can see.

Name the candidate though.

You can say I am wrong all you want. I’ve been out in my community for years registering people. We will see who is wrong come election day. It brings me no pleasure. People are hurting, they are very tired of the lies and LOTS of people are out of work and have lost their homes. All of these good people thought Obama would help them, not the banks and the insurance companies and big Pharma. It’s going to be bad.

Progressives, with single payer, universal coverage, the PO, Medicare plus, attempted to get the Social Camel’s nose under the tent wall, instead Obama and the Center right managed to have their Corporatist/Fascist Camel’s nose and head and then some squeeze under it.

We will loose big time, if this thing survives.

I left this comment on an opposing diary. I don’t always agree with you, Jane, but I don’t think you’re the enemy either.

HCR is not going well for progressives, so there’s a lot of pent up emotions needing release, and unfortunately a lot of undeserving targets – including you – are being caught in the firestorm.

It’ll be a brand new day tomorrow.

I don’t think so.
They will do the math and make sure the bronze (super junk-60 actuarial value) plan is less then 8%.
If they set it at 7.5% where the subsidies phase out, guessing 300% FPL, it will stay under 8% as the incomes go up.

I’m not saying that what you’re doing isn’t important and valuable. If anyone has noticed me around here, he or she would know that I admire you for such hard work.

I agree that people are hurting, that they are very tired of the lies and that LOTS of people are out of work and have lost their homes, and that Obama has screwed them.

I recognize and admire hard work on behalf of what Firedoglake represents.

What I’m saying is that there are ways to proceed that are effective politically in getting results, and ways that are not.

I’ve done a lot over the last few months here at FDL, working hard because I want to achieve our goals. But all the hard work in the world isn’t going to lead us to victory if the strategy isn’t very good.

I’m totally at a loss as to the disagreement here. – what is the strategy for victory, please?

I completely respect what you’ve done Knox, I am not trying to infer otherwise whatsoever. If I came across that way I apoligize.

I can only speak for my community. I agree there are things we can do to be effective, I just don’t know if enough of the country is going to be over the anger to start fighting again.

Here’s a truly radical left wing scenario: businesses would no longer have the expense and overhead (administrative costs) of insuring you. Those dollars could go into hiring more people or increasing wages. Every dollar currently paid to private insurance companies is now more valuable – $1.00 is worth $1.20 – because you’re not paying for CEO salaries, bonuses for denying coverage etc.

So your taxes would go up, but so would your wages, and we’d be more competitive in the world economy with countries that have universal health care. And you wouldn’t ever face bankruptcy just because you got sick.

I’m so ashamed to be a scientist/veteran/progressive.

Have you read Jane’s post, the dk diary, the redstate post, and my comments @ 96 and 173?

The intensity that you are now seeing regarding the failure to reform health care will be erased by the end of the week. You’ll be angry about it. I’ll be angry about it. And, from what I can tell of the strategy here, we’ll be marginalized soon enough.

The intensity I feel will not be erased by the end of the week because my son’s life depends on medical intervention. My family has been almost bankrupted paying for treatment that our oh so great insurance company doesn’t cover now. The insurance companies are going to cover pre existing because they are going to price it so that no one will have the ability to afford it but the affluent. But hey, they will at least cover you if you can pay, no one can say they won’t cover the pre existing. They can marginalize me all they want but I can assure you there are many, many families like mine. I am mad as all hell but I can not give up the fight.

Not sure I get the logic in allying with right wingers based on ‘common’ opposition to the health care plan when it’s all to plain that their objections to it are largely diametrically opposed to what progressives would like to see. Are these Red Staters et al going to support a single payer plan or anything that leads to it? How does this grand coalition deal with a woman’s right to choose? Or conscience clauses, or insurers dealing across state lines or covering the undocumented?

I don’t like the mandate, and they don’t either. But isn’t there a good deal more to it? How does an alliance like this actually work regarding Health Care reform?

And I have to add, as a person of color (who has REAL problems with Obama, so there) there is no fucking way on God’s green earth that I hold hands and sing Kumbaya with the vast majority of the teabaggers, who, if they don’t out and out foment racial hatred at the very least countenance it. Or shut their eyes and pretend that it doesn’t really matter.

(But then, I’ve just been reading post after post in which they seem preferable to the folks on Daily Kos — so maybe it’s just that my purity meter is out of whack.)

“Have you read Jane’s post, the dk diary, the redstate post, and my comments @ 96 and 173?”

yes, yes, no, yes and yes, – I still cannot figure what the crux of the divergence of opinion is.

What I sense is that Jane is slowly moving on from the single issue of HC, and into the larger and vastly more important weeds, elequently presented by Glenzilla:

“Even if one grants the arguments made by proponents of the health care bill about increased coverage, what the bill does is reinforces and bolsters a radically corrupt and flawed insurance model and an even more corrupt and destructive model of “governing.” It is a major step forward for the corporatist model, even a new innovation in propping it up. How one weighs those benefits and costs — both in the health care debate and with regard to many of Obama’s other policies — depends largely upon how devoted one is to undermining and weakening this corporatist framework (as opposed to exploiting it for political gain and some policy aims). “

Thank you Archangel, I truly don’t mind. We’re right where we want to be — in the center of a very contentious health care debate. Comes with the territory.

And keeps the place lively, doncha think?

;)

That’s what I was getting at – if the “penalty” revenue was dedicated to paying for free riders it doesn’t sound as bad. Having a medicare tax for all that kicks in at 200% of poverty level and pays 100% of costs would be a lot better.

8% of income, plus 12% of income for copays/deductibles means there could be a large number that does the calculus and concludes a 2% penalty is a better deal. ER acute care, community clinics for preventative care. ERs will still have to stabilize people. Those costs still have to be paid. 2% penalty won’t cover those costs and maybe it could drive us toward Medicare for all over time.

I’m not buying this argument, just a bit surprised to come up with the similarity of the 1.65% and 2.0% rates as a way of framing it. The novelty makes me want to run with the idea a little.

I suspect Medicare for all would cost more like 7-10% if assessed on everyone earning 200% of poverty level or higher. Which would be a good deal.

I may be wrong, but seem to recall that 40% of voters identify as Independents.

The alignment being proposed is not with right wingers per, se but people on the right and Independents who fear the following: “Whether you call it “a government takeover of the private sector” or a “private sector takeover of government,” it’s the same thing: a merger of government power and corporate interests which benefits both of the merged entities (the party in power and the corporations) at everyone else’s expense.”–––Glennzilla

Most of those also hate the War and tend to be pro choice. I am absolutely certain that faced with a commonwealth responsive government, they would find fit more preferable than the Fascist model being promoted and implemented by Obama.

Whether anyone wants to think about it or not, quite a few of those on the right voted to elect Obama because they were so fed up with republicans at the time.

Thanks. Perhaps the “calminginfluence” @ 197 could learn a lesson in graciousness.

The Third Way is to be denounced and resisted wherever it is encountered, and right now it’s doing a frontal assault on our Health, with little more than a focused eye on delivering greater profits for Wall Street.

Well, I’m glad you’ve found the Change You Can Believe In. I simply doubt that your or my version of a “commonwealth responsive government” would be anything like theirs would, independents included. And for my money, the Greenwald quote sounds cute, but pretty facile.

And I seem to remember that until recently, many of that Independent 40% was more than happy to vote G.W. Bush into office twice — hard to imagine they’re that wary of Fascism, even if they don’t like ol’ Barack Hussein Hitler any more than you do.

Jane,

I wrote my comments @ 96 and @ 173 as someone who’s on your side, who’s trying to be your friend, and who thinks he’s got some very valid points for you to consider.

As you seem to be going out of your way to ignore me, it appears you don’t much value my contributions. I’m sorry for that.

I’m going to close with a few observations all the same:

To control damage in the base regarding hcr (i.e. lack of reform), the White House strategy is to bring some critics into the fold and to marginalize the rest.

Howard Dean is being brought into the fold. After working to move the Democratic Party in the right direction, he gets in line at the end of the day. At first he indicated that he was going to fight this bs bill and call it a failure. But this morning he clearly indicated that, after talking with Axelrod all week, he’s decided to do what’s best for the Democratic Party. I understand, even if I don’t agree with him. In a few days, he’s going to say that they have made enough changes to the Senate bill that he can now support it.

You are being marginalized. You making noises about being on the same side as the teabaggers in any way and/or for any reason is just helping them to marginalize you. Besides, you are nothing at all like the teabaggers, you are so much better than the teabaggers, and you should be using them rather than allowing them to use you.

I want to pay higher taxes to cover everyone. What the Senate is doing doesn’t fdo this.

I had a novel idea earier from seeing “2% penalty” mentioned a few times, figured that the comparison with the medicare portion of FICA should be looked at even if it isn’t particularly apt. My thought process went 2%… hmm, 2% how does that compare with other IRS levies? payroll tax… oops I was wrong total FICA is 7.65%, 6.2% OASDI, 1.45% is Medicare, 2.90% combined employee and employer tax for Medicare.

So the comparison isn’t quite as close.

Agreed. That is why I want a different bill, or the current one to die.

Funny enough, I was talking with my friend Mike from Campaign for Liberty who wanted to know why we WEREN’T talking about single payer. While we have a disagreement about what we think the role of government should be, they recognize that there is a legitimate argument to be made for single payer from a fiscal responsibility standpoint. For the government subsidizing of insurance companies — none.

They’re anti-war and don’t really care about social issues, and none of them that I know identify themselves as “teabaggers”. So I think maybe you might want to do some more research before you write them all off — you just might find some that you agree with.

It’s so sad that Obama’s biggest defenders are finding fault with those who are only embracing the same cross-partisan dialogue that he championed during his campaign. It’s a shame how quickly the bright hope of 2008 has disappeared, only to be replaced by rigid tests of partisan purity.

That the goal is health care reform for those who desperately need it seems to have gotten lost.

Forget t-baggers, read Independents / Libertarians.

Better?

You can read Independents / Libertarians. I can read Independents / Libertarians.

The narrative that Jane is being boxed into is that she’s holding hands with teabaggers. She needs to be aware of it. She needs not to let herself get boxed into it.

Rationally Angry Populists (RAPpers!)

Not nativist anti-science knuckle dragging troglodytes.

Some tea party attendees aren’t NA-SKDTs.

Thank you, Knox. I appreciate it. But I don’t mind. I welcome all their voices here, I think that having a conversation about health care where everyone is heard is important.

I am disappointed that the President’s loyalists think the best way to defend their position it to shut down the conversation and forbid the exchange of ideas with anyone they don’t agree with them 100%. At some point they are going to be unhappy with the President about something and realize that he doesn’t do that either.

I am disappointed.

Be true to yourself. Focus on building the narrative that you are disappointed in Obama and in the Democrats in Congress. Make it stick. Make it so that when people who voted for Obama last year hear his name, they think “disappointment.”

They have to still want what he promised, but want someone else to deliver it.

But indicating a willingness to ally yourself with teabaggers – rather than showing yourself to be who you are – makes you easy to marginalize.

The entire premise of the teabaggers and other “purists” in the Republican Party isn’t disappointment with government. It’s using government to impose the painfully narrow worldview of a minority of lunatics on the Republican Party and from the party on the American people.

Even allying with Ron Paul made me uncomfortable. Have you read his End the Fed?

Ugh, cripes.

God, you kos types are unlikeable.

I agree fully with Jane, the ‘teabaggers’ as everyone calls them have more on the ball than these kos dorks. Before it was turned into astroturf the original teabag protest was against the bailouts, they called, they emailed, they knashed their teeth and rent their garments to stop them. But Pelosi, Frank, and Dodd came through for the banksters and got 700 billion of our cash money. Then it got taken over by Dick Armey and the nutjobs. The people who started it are every bit as American, and every bit as honorable as any of us. You are doing a very smart thing, Jane. You know that.

I’m done with Obama, and done with any puling dem sellout, yeah you Wiener, Feingold, Franken, and Sanders. Spare me your excuses, and don’t let the door hit you in the ass.

Don’t let these useless little kos creeps get you down, Jane, you’ve been kicking serious ass during this fiasco, so trust your self and keep on rolling.

And mainly – thank you.

I probably could. But then I wouldn’t be known as Calming Influence. And please note that I did include a smiley with my rudeness, thusly ;-) Stick around, you’ll get to like it, I swear (frequently).

Well, I guess I got a little confused between the ‘populist tidal wave’ and the enlightened group of libertarians you’ve been talking to. Maybe those folks don’t give a damn about social issues, and maybe there are enough of them who truly do share common cause with progressives. But you’re right — I haven’t researched this particular group you’re now mentioning. My bad.

But when I hear phrases like ‘populist tidal wave’ tossed around in this day and age it evokes rightwingers and teabaggers shouting and waving signs, and I defy anyone to tell me with a straight face that’s unreasonable or silly.

But I will check out Campaign For Liberty and see how they’re different from other Libertarians I’ve run across.

the right cadence and tone, happy to meat ya,transparait.

We get it, Jane. You don’t like the President. Everyone always knew you were a PUMA. Fine. But your condescension here is almost unbearable. For what it’s worth, I was indifferent between Hillary and Obama until Hillary said that she would entertain a nuclear strike on Iran. I did think Hillary would have been better on healthcare.

Hanging with the teabaggers makes you look very naive. I know you want to be the next Grover Norquist, determining the course of elections, but you’re blowing your credibility. Enjoy the money now. It won’t last.

Were you at any of these protests yourself?

I ask, because out there in the TV studios they are manufacturing narratives which you are then obliged to live.

Are you calling me a “kos” type?

For a long time, I read antiwar.com off and on, and thought that those guys (e.g., Justin Raimondo) were liberals. Also, from time to time I read The American Conservative and thought it was a liberal put-on.

It’s not until you start talking about economics and safety nets that you realize that these folks aren’t liberals. So long as you stick to foreign policy and rule of law, it’s very hard to distinguish. (Libertarians are quicker to criticize Israel, but that distinction is diminishing.)

I am disappointed that the President’s loyalists think the best way to defend their position it to shut down the conversation and forbid the exchange of ideas with anyone they don’t agree with them 100%. At some point they are going to be unhappy with the President about something and realize that he doesn’t do that either.

Hi Jane. Thanks for the sanity. There are many of us who appreciate it.

Yes. The teabaggers have more on the ball, even than those progressives who were also against the bailouts, have problems with Obama and happen to read or post on Daily Kos.

Talk about fucking purity tests?!? Apparently this new “We are the World” vibe only extends rightward. It’s insane that ONE STUPID POST on Kos suddenly renders that entire community null and void. Actually, it’s comical. I feel like I’m reading an anti-Stalinist satire.

And now it’s these mystical original teabaggers that we’re talking about? The ones who were never corporate dupes or who never supported the corporate oligarchy? Those are the folks we’re talking about now? Thanks for letting me know. Because not long ago many of these folks were known as Conservative Republicans Who Hate Paying Taxes.

self selecting.

Are you?

umm, the $700B was done by Bush/Paulson with acquiescence of this huge bipartisan majority in congress. Tea Party was against “stimulus/pork”, a large part of which is tax cuts. Kind of funny as the original Boston Tea party was a protest of tax cuts that cut into smuggling income.

THe populist anger can be channeled. We need to get David Cay Johnston’s Free Lunch internalized in tea partiers. Those types of rob the middle class and poor to enrich the wealthy policies are something both progressives and tea partiers should oppose.

Is this real? Or is it some kind of Ionesco-like theatre piece?

Are you actually serious?

used to read Reimondo and stopped when he started shilling for some greek Narcissus Dandy. But they also know that they are marginalized. Then given a choice between Imperialist Fascism and Swedish style Socialism; I’m not sure he wouldn’t be a Socialist!

on what bases would you believe otherwise? Fox or CNN?

I’m getting the sense here that you in the FDL inner circle have convinced yourselves and/or are convincing yourselves that this is the right path to follow. I’m even guessing that we’ll see Jane on Fox News this week. It’s the wrong way to go.

First, you’re going to find out that these people are not who you want to be in bed with. The underlying differences will quickly appear, you’ll express unhappiness, and they will stab you in the back.

Second, it’s not a winning strategy in any case. Dalybean referred to Jane as a puma a little while ago. Think about it. You probably won’t remember this, but last year Geraldine Ferraro started appearing on Fox News as a Hillary supporter and continued to appear there after Hillary conceded, for about a week. It didn’t work.

LOL. Jane’s a PUMA? that’s extremely funny.

OMFGYRL*!

We get it, Jane. You don’t like the President. Everyone always knew you were a PUMA. Fine. But your condescension here is almost unbearable. For what it’s worth, I was indifferent between Hillary and Obama until Hillary said that she would entertain a nuclear strike on Iran. I did think Hillary would have been better on healthcare.

Hanging with the teabaggers makes you look very naive. I know you want to be the next Grover Norquist, determining the course of elections, but you’re blowing your credibility. Enjoy the money now. It won’t last.

You’re more that a little scary. How did you manage to process what you’ve read here into that incendiary little nugget?

*Oh My Fucking God You Raving Lunatic. The “GYRL” part is in no way sexist code.

self selecting.

Are you?

Not at all.

You clearly identified all the advice I’ve been trying to give to Jane as “kos”-type thinking. You did everything but say my name.

Passive aggressive, are you?

here.

http://market-ticker.org/archives/1752-There-Is-No-Way-Out-Of-This-Box…..html

As far as purity tests, I never liked that kos site much. Reminds me of the Adobe forums, they have a kind of a tradition, on your first post everyone trolls you. You know, they’re like a street gang jumping a member in, but with typing. Anyway, seemed like the same kind of circle jerk in search of verbiage and fellow feeling at kos. Too many heads bobbing.

LOL. Jane’s a PUMA? that’s extremely funny.

Funny to you. Funny to me. But that’s what it will look like to others.

It’s absolutely ridiculous to call Jane a PUMA. anyone that came to FDL in 2008 knows better, and the credibiity of people that weren’t here to make that accusation is nil.

Well, she hates the President and she’s in bed with Red State and FreedomWorks. What would you prefer that I call her, a teabagger? A member of the Red State Strike Force?

No, you’re confused. The first vote on the bailouts failed because a bunch of reps wouldn’t vote for it, Bernanke pulled liquity, and the markets tanked. The second go round it passed with more dems than reps.

This is the funniest thread on FDL in a long, long time. I really miss the old-time funny threads like this one.

I disagree with you completely and irreversably. Spare me the pop sci.

Since when do your personal feelings about the President make you some fucking authority on rewriting the reality as we are trying to live it – fucking nuts?

Well, she hates the President and she’s in bed with Red State and FreedomWorks. What would you prefer that I call her, a teabagger? A member of the Red State Strike Force?

Wait, now I get it – you’re a cartoon! Like “I had a pleasant conversation with my boss’s wife = I’m in bed with my boss’s wife.”

Are you twelve?

What’s funny about it, Teddy?

I was reading Glenn in 2004 and Jane as soon as she started. I’ve been here a long, long time and I’ve been in DC for 30 years. Through Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II and Obama. I love Jane. I think she is one of the most effective advocates I have ever seen. But making common cause with the teabaggers is outrageous and it now appears to be based on hatred of the President.

Larry Johnson and Taylor Marsh made the same type of mistake during the election. Where are they now?

You really need to start your own blog. Your talents a simply wasted here.

Jane thinks that improvements can be made. I agree. Even with co presidents Lieberman, Nelson, Baucus, etc involved improvements are possible and we should keep saying we want and deserve better.

A lot of people know that the current Senate bill is a shit sandwich. Saying we want less shit on the sandwich, and pointing out that some tea party attendees also don’t want a bunch of shit on the sandwich doesn’t put us in bed with the tea party attendees.

Saying we have common cause with the tea party attendees on economic issues is also correct. Destruction of the middle class is bad regardless if it’s due to union busting or bad tax/development policy. Reaching a subset of tea partiers is worthwhile and has some potential for organizing and achieving progressive goals.

pop sci

Wtf is pop sci?

Is that like sci fi?

I disagree with you completely and irreversably.

Ok.

Knoxville, I recognize your name from this blog in earlier days. I myself have read and posted here since the days when Patrick Fitzgerald was believed to walk on water, always loved the place, and always supported Jane with money and time. The tenor certainly has changed around here.

Some people are going to accuse anyone who disagrees or SEEMS to disagree with Jane of being a Kossack, or an Obamabot. Ironically it feels like the same kind of cult of personality that some Kos posters succumb to, devoid of nuance and determined to paint with the broadest brush possible.

Oh well. It’s a public forum, I guess.

Thanks. Doesn’t answer my question.

I am getting the feeling that Jane et al would be happy to see me go at this point, though. Sad.

Knoxville has diaries at the seminal. Writes some good stuff.

He’s got a point about Jane’s stance being easy to misread. I think Jane is getting something from his respectful repeating and restating his view point.

The teabaggers hate the President and they want to bring him down in order to replace him with a Conservative, most preferably Sarah Palin. You will not be reaching the teabaggers to achieve any progressive goals–economic, social or otherwise.

You all are losing the plot.

Group think happens here. More than I’d like myself, but like you say it’s a public forum. The only thing I’ve really seen redacted by mods is vicious personal attacks and advocacy of harm to others.

I only disagree with Jane to the extent that I very much want what’s best for her. If this is the direction she’s planning to go, it’s not what’s best for her or for what she wants to accomplish.

What I’m seeing on this thread isn’t funny, as Teddy very oddly put it @ 298.

What I’m seeing is an effort to reinforce a delusional belief that a bad idea is the opposite of a bad idea. Well, it’s still a bad idea no matter how hard you tell yourself that it isn’t.

Tea party attendees are not a monolithic bloc.

There is a vocal subset that fits your description. From engaging with them at town halls I’d put that subset at about 15-20% of tea partiers, the rest is scared and manipulated by those fears.

We aren’t achieving any progressive goals now.

“You’ve never got the plot to begin with.What I’m seeing is an effort to reinforce a delusional belief that a bad idea is the opposite of a bad idea. Well, it’s still a bad idea no matter how hard you tell yourself that it isn’t.”

That, however, works best when your name is Knoxville.

I was reading Glenn in 2004 and Jane as soon as she started. I’ve been here a long, long time and I’ve been in DC for 30 years.

If this is true, I’m really at a loss to see where this shit comes from:

Well, she hates the President and she’s in bed with Red State and FreedomWorks. What would you prefer that I call her, a teabagger? A member of the Red State Strike Force?

You seem hung up on the idea that it’s some particular politician that going to come to our rescue. I’m overjoyed that we have a Democratic president, and if Obama proposes progressive issues, I’m behind him. If he sides with drug companies and insurance companies, I’m against him. He’s a politician, and we need to PUSH him so that he has no choice but to do the right thing. This may actually be what he wants, but I’m not depending on it. PUSH. From the left. From the right. From the baggers. Christ, when my truck’s stuck in the mud I don’t interview the guys coming to help push…

Sorry. I’m not seeing your point.

Happy to meet you too, fuckno. Don’t let the screws get you down.

Will read.

Thanks for really ruining a really great blog with this juvenile personal shit. Really, really tired.

Yes we are. Let’s not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

In 1993-1994, Bill Kristol wrote the Republican script for healthcare which is being followed today as well. The script then, as now, was to obstruct any progress whatsoever on healthcare reform because once the Democrats got their foot in that door the middle class would be lost to the Republicans for at least a generation. Opening the door to healthcare reform is the key to so much more progress. We only need look to the historical examples of Social Security and Medicare. That is why the wonks and most progressives are now on board.

Our foot is in the door. That’s progress. Imperfect, yes. But if we participate in letting the Republicans shut the door again, it will probably not open for another 15 or 20 years.

Thanks, Jane — the Insurance/Pharma Emergency Rescue and Rehabilitation Act of 2010 is a sobering example of how our current challenges cannot be solved by the level of thinking that gave rise to them.

I don’t see teabaggers as our natural allies in this fight any more than Lieberman, Nelson & Reid. Republican success since last November has been in media spin, policy misrepresentation and legislative obstruction.

That said, it takes courage to think outside the box so keep up the good work.

Jane,

Please know that I only intended my comments in this thread to be advice to a friend, to someone I admire, and to someone I very much care about.

As you begin down this path, take a moment to look at Max Blumenthal’s _Republican Gomorrah: Inside the Movement that Shattered the Party_ (2009).

{{{Jane}}}

Jeeze, I thought you were going to promise me a pony for a second there. We do not have a foot in the door, we have a corporate frontman selling us out to the insurance companies and banks after telling us he would give us ponies during his campaign. The con is over. The writing is on the wall, read it dammit.

We’re all in this together, Knoxville.

I didn’t support Hillary, but people who aren’t in the habit of fact-checking or backing up their work with links tend to repeat things like that. It’s why linking is so useful, you make sure that you don’t repeat someone else’s errors.

It’s something that happens when people get really angry and confused — they start turning others into stereotypes that justify their rage, and manufacturing villains rather than addressing the substance of their arguments. That’s probably why you’re uncomfortable being around people of different political beliefs, because there’s no common personality to “hate” or “love” to tie the community together. You’ve either got to back your arguments up with proof and substance or it all just falls apart.

Grover Norquist’s wife is a Palestinian and Grover has done really important (and very difficult) work fighting bigotry against people of Middle Eastern decent, and founded the Islamic Institute. It’s very sad that people get so married to the “politics of personality” and the only thing they know how to do is slap a label on someone that says “we hate him” without ever looking to see if he might have done something of value. I thought that was the exclusive territory of the right, but I am sad to learn that was wrong.

I know. I need to go to sleep but I just can’t stop myself.

If there’s a dime’s worth of difference between elected corporate shills on either side of the aisle, I don’t see it.

“Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good” is an extension of voting for the lesser of two evils.

This reminds me of the dialogue from The Dark Knight:

Alfred Pennyworth: A long time ago, I was in Burma, my friends and I were working for the local government. They were trying to buy the loyalty of tribal leaders by bribing them with precious stones. But their caravans were being raided in a forest north of Rangoon by a bandit. So we went looking for the stones. But in six months, we never found anyone who traded with him. One day I saw a child playing with a ruby the size of a tangerine. The bandit had been throwing them away.

Bruce Wayne: Then why steal them?

Alfred Pennyworth: Because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren’t looking for anything logical, like money. They can’t be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

Longest night of the year in the northern hemisphere, you may be getting solstice energy.

The sun will appear to move north tomorrow. Ra Ra Ra!
Please excuse the religious outburst.

You’re correct it wasn’t a huge majority. It was bipartisan. TARP proposal did come from Bush/Paulson.

Bernanke pulling liquidity (breaking the buck – MM parity) was the final straw that got it passed.

Are we supposed to be afraid of you for the nonsense you spout?

hola! chiming in to say as a Tea Party Person and 24 yr Dem, formerly considered myself liberal but now guess I am moderate I hope we can work together on things we agree on.

this HCR travesty for example, which i have wanted to kill since O cut the deal with Billy Tauzin

15 GOP senators voted to allow Americans access to RXs from Canada and DEMS killed it, so called progressive Dems like ROckefeller

I think we can all agree the suckage in this POS bill is massive

10/12 is gonna be EPIC backlash, if we work together we can all claim victory and you can try to get actual ‘progressives’ and we can try to get actual representation since the COngress is ignoring all our marches, calls,f axes, emails, town halls. etc etc

Team Obama and his crony capitalist buddies WANT us to be divided, thus tea BAGGER which caught on so nicely.

We are not all conservative! I am a member of the NRDC, WWF, DNC (or was on that last one, lol). I have wanted UHC since 1992. But thbis POS bill is going to do nothing but kill Dem majorities for my litetime and kill the dream of REAL UHC

PS and I DID support Hillary I know progressives love to hate her, but she passed SCHIP and she was NOT the candidate who got the msot dough from Wall St and INsurers, that would be Obama

Would anyone here like to handle this one?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/21/817417/-Devil-in-the-Details:-Mandate-not-mandatory

That’s why god made tags.

You betcha!

Exactly.

This is the the key point of all this folderol.

What I don’t understand about this strategy. Exactly how do you get the influence to actually do something to change things?

I might have agreed with you in 1968. But I’ve waited 41 years, and I haven’t seen that strategy deliver anything yet. Reluctantly I’ve concluded that one has to work within the big tent of one party or another. And one has to work a bottom-up strategy, which means a lot of on the ground effort.

I’ve not yet seen that sort of strategy from those who think you can work outside one of the two major parties.

When I see Green candidates win in South Carolina, for example, then I might think there is the real possibility of a third party movement. But so far, all we have are Bernie Sanders and Joe Lieberman. And Lieberman is a party of one.

Meanwhile over at Orange the hits just keep coming…

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/21/817469/-Jane-Hamshers-staff

Jane,
I defended you strongly in the Daily Kos site yesterday and, after that, decided to start hanging out here also. The attack on you there was totally inappropriate and wrong. In any case, I am not sure it is a good idea to form any “alliances” with libertarians no matter what the cause. They may be honest in their beliefs, but they remain stupid. Yes, libertarians are simply stupid and out of touch with reality. It is not a group liberals should be working with, even in cases of agreement. JMO.

I did not know that. I am sorry for my ignorance.

Wow, what a great thread! Very expertly moderated, Jane. I particularly like the emphasis given to sidestepping manufactured outrage. I salute your courage.

I will take exception to the myth,”the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” Damn, don’t that sound wise? But, IMO, it’s a stupid, self-defeating basis for a political economy. How’s that working out for us in the Middle East?

As Jane so admirably points out, you have to work with actual people, not stereotypes, straw men, or other figments that, all too often, are manufactured by propagandists.

Democracy ain’t a spectator sport, where you root for the “home” team even if they’re perfect losers, or a reality show, or an episode of Jerry Springer. It isn’t something you can outsource to “experts” who will identify your enemies and allies–whom to attack, whom to defend–and tell you your opinion. It’s a way of genuinely being in the world.

The deportment of commenters here admirably exemplifies that spirit.

I bow in all y’all’s virtual directions (yes, that includes people with whom I disagree).

Surrounded as I am by anti-intellectual reactionaries, if I don’t talk to them, I’d never speak. But there is a way to talk to them: I understand your anger. Don’t let anyone tell you what you should be angry about. People (media) like to play with it. etc.

Great stuff. When the Molotov -Ribbentrop Pact was signed, people in the US quickly re-arranged their opinions and suddenly their allies were warmongering puppets and Germans were misunderstood people that you could work with.

I let the Jane Haters have it too in the comments section of the offending (and offensive) diary, I also got some of my frustration off my chest in another diary’s comments thread. I agree with the another commenter here who observed that there is a lot of hero worship going on at DKos, and I think there is a correlation between Obama hero worshipers and Jane Hamsher haters as Jane doesn’t pull any punches and Obama has been worthy of a lot of criticism.

That said, I’m not ready to demonize the Great Orange Satan, pun intended. I love Daily Kos and I go there as much as I come here, it’s a great progressive community and forum and you find points of view there that run the full spectrum. I say this because your comment betrayed a lack of understanding of how DKos works. You mentioned that you would check back to see if the diary had been removed but diaries aren’t removed per se. Any user, given a certain grace period after signing up, can post a diary at DKos and the way diaries get on the recommended diaries list is by user recommendations. The way they are removed is by being replaced by other recommended diaries.

There are site admins but except for extreme circumstances they don’t control the content, the user community does. The better way to fight the kind of crap like the Jane-hating DKos diaries, IMHO, is not to write the admins but to address the community, respectfully of course as hard as that can be. I try to stay respectful even if the respect isn’t reciprocal, do unto others and all but some of the Jane Haters have really strained my resolve lately.