Comments on: Democrats Tell Progressives: America Is A Center-Right Nation

By: selise

selise — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:50:46 +0000

re my questions: “are your numbers meant to be deficit spending on top of whatever current policies would have given us (via automatic stabilizers, etc)? or do they include deficit spending due to automatic stabilizers?”

automatic stabilizers are everything from fed income and sales taxes to unemployment insurance that automatically increase fed deficit spending in a recession.

my initial question was also what results do you expect from your proposed stimulus (unemployment levels, and anything else you think is relevant). iow, how would you measure success or failure of your proposal? and my newer question was do you accept your assumptions?

……..

re NC debate:

Rob Parenteau: Debate on Deficits: A Reply from Rob Parenteau

Marshall Auerback: All Debt is Not Created Equal: Government Debt is NOT the Same as Private Debt

if you can now talk about fed deficit spending and fiat money, “strength in the economy coupled with a fiat currency to allow for deficit spending,” ” A government with a fiat currency doesn’t have to balance its books but for the rest of us the math is the math,” then i think at least a little of what rob, marshall and scott (boy were you obnoxious to scott and marshall too) wrote must have sunk in as you were then insisting on fed gov default and previously that the nature of our monetary system, how money is created and destroyed, is uninteresting.

….

i have no idea what you are talking about re “pure keynesianism” — is that based on your own reading of him, and if so what are you referring to?

By: zeroguardian03

zeroguardian03 — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:03:37 +0000

I grew up in a conservative home listening to Rush Limbaugh, and one thing he said was that you can’t win elections until you educate the populace. When you lose, you determine what in your message didn’t get out, and you make sure to get it out for next time. This is something that Karl Rove and most of the GOP strategists understand- that winning isn’t mainly about strategy, it’s about popular belief.

When our side loses, we tend to conclude that we were out-strategized by the other side, or that they cheated and stole the election. This only prolongs our misery, because these are external forces that turn us into the victims, and we get discouraged and become cynical and fatalistic. Our path ahead is convincing the population of our ideas, not in assuming they all agree with us and that forces outside our general control have tricked and manipulated the situation. No victory in our future if we keep doing that.

By: Hugh

Hugh — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 06:55:43 +0000

To be honest I have forgotten the context of the NC debate. I am not sure what automatic stabilizers would mean here. Are you talking about the general notions that markets are cyclical and self-correct? You know I am sure that I am at least in part Keynesian in my approach to the current crisis. I also think that there is sufficient underlying strength in the economy coupled with a fiat currency to allow for deficit spending on the order I contemplate. This can be magnified by directing money and investment away from unproductive sectors like the paper economy, the imperial wars, the wealthy and into areas that build a greener, more sustainable industrial base and communities to go with this. In that I depart from pure Keynesianism because I attach a vector to the increase in aggregate demand. And as I have said in the past, even with all this, I do not see our way clear without a considerable amount of debt repudiation. A government with a fiat currency doesn’t have to balance its books but for the rest of us the math is the math and the only way to get out from under crushing debt maintenance is simply to erase a fair amount of the private debt. I think Keynes saw this more in terms of bankruptcy (don’t want to put words in his mouth) than debt repudiation but the general effect is the same in that it frees up capital to increase aggregate demand.

By: billvb

billvb — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 03:22:34 +0000

Unfortunately, “right” and “left” doesn’t suffice to describe our predicament. America appears to me to be run primarily by a body of individuals with a strong corporate-bent – that’s the current ‘center’. It used to seem that Republicans were the ‘corporate’ party and that Dems were the ‘labor’ party, but now there is no labor party, and Republicans have to share the corporate mantle with the DLC and the rest of the moderate Dems. It is a sad state of affairs. While I can’t sympathize with my Republican friends on many issues, we can seem to both agree with the sentiment of “throw the bums out.” I had the sad thought today, that we are living in a corporate serfdom, and that corporate-funded healthcare, though expensive for businesses, is another great tool for keeping workers well-behaved, dependent and tethered to their employers and their benefits.

By: MarkH

MarkH — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 01:56:07 +0000

Everybody denying Paulson (TARP), Fed Chair Bernanke (loans & guarantees), Treas. Sec. Geithner and the Congressional stimulus saved the economy are experiencing a serious case of denial.

I understand why Republicans hate to admit these things, but why would any Democrat, particularly those who supported Obama and voted for him, deny the achievements?

By: sl26

sl26 — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 00:48:34 +0000

Clinton, Rahm, and Obama are the DLC crowd who would rather deal with the conservatives than the liberals. The DLC despises Howard Dean. They call him crazy every chance they get. The only reason they allowed him to be the party chair is because he would bring in the votes from the left….and he did.

By: selise

selise — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 00:10:48 +0000

sadly we’re talking about the same person :(

By: selise

selise — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 00:07:13 +0000

are your numbers meant to be deficit spending on top of whatever current policies would have given us (via automatic stabilizers, etc)? or do they include deficit spending due to automatic stabilizers?

those were my questions. or maybe you have not reconsidered your remarks to marshall and scott on marshall’s follow on post to rob during the deficit debate at NC? if you are still of the same mind, then my questions won’t make any sense.

…..

but now you make me want to ask another question. do you accept the assumptions?

By: masaccio

masaccio — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 23:48:37 +0000

Paul Samuelson. Not the pretender Robert Samuelson.

By: Hugh

Hugh — Sun, 20 Dec 2009 23:30:30 +0000

It should. This is what a trillion a year in stimulus would buy you in jobs over the first 3-4 years (if you accept the assumptions).