Hasn’t Axelrod ever noticed that unHoly Joe is a Dem when it benefits him, and a DINO when it benefits him? The guy is out for himself, certainly, and not to the benefit of his official constituency.

For that matter, hasn’t Axelrod noticed that most of the Senators who were holding the bill hostage (so as to make it a bigger pile of shit) are DINOs, not officially GOoPers? (Now I’m beginning to wonder about his boss: is he also a DINO?)

They ALL make me sick.
Dean was good on MTP tho.

OK, that’s Axelrod’s totally frank and unbiased take on the legislation; here’s another:

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/12/0082740

What Axelrod failed to say: If you get sick, die quickly! This plan just entrenches and further empowers the status quo.

Error letter from CBO on out-year savings:

http://www.rollcall.com/news/41780-1.html

Oooops!

If these foockers won’t contemplate meaningful expansions of public insurance (much less single payer), then why won’t they think about real regulation of the insurance companies? Create a real national insurance regulator, with the power to set prices and approve increases – basically regulating insurance like FERC regulates utilities? This would presumably answer conservadem and rethug concerns that we have to protect the role of free enterprise, choice and private insurance an’ all that.

But then again, this isn’t about market versus statist economics. It’s about bribery.

Hey David: Define “Everyone.”

Lies (And The Lying Liars Who Tell Them): A Fair And Balanced Look At The Obama Administration.

Forgive my ignorance, but I’m very fuzzy about what happens now with the House. Is reconciliation coming? Will the 65 (or so) progressives hold the line, or fold up like a cheap card table?

But Mr. smoke blower comb-over said that the Obama administration isn’t a total sell-out… They are going to go back and re-address the drug importation issues after this health care bill has been passed and the FDA is satisfied with safety issues.

Right. When do you think that FDA study will be finished? January 2013?

In addition to those who will be forced to buy crappy insurance they can’t afford, the dems are also going to anger many people who currently get insurance from their employers.

When the excise tax on supposedly “cadillac” plans goes into effect, employers will do whatever is necessary to reduce the cost of those “cadillac” plans in order to avoid the excise tax. That means those currently insued will have their insurance changed to be less effective and to cost te employee MORE.

The republicans will bring this up in the 2010 campaigns and remind the voters that the dems promised them they would be able to keep their insurance if they liked it…..

I kind of like the insurance I have now. I won’t like it too much if the deductibles and co-pays are raised and coverage modified in order to bring the value of it below the definition of “cadillac”. Whatever that it supposedd to mean.

Interestingly, the original architect of the public option, Professor Jacob Hacker is offering tepid support for the bill.
Today, in the New Republc he writes:

As weak as it is in numerous areas, the Senate bill contains three vital reforms. First, it creates a new framework, the “exchange,” through which people who lack secure workplace coverage can obtain the same kind of group health insurance that workers in large companies take for granted. Second, it makes available hundreds of billions in federal help to allow people to buy coverage through the exchanges and through an expanded Medicaid program. Third, it places new regulations on private insurers that, if properly enforced, will reduce insurers’ ability to discriminate against the sick and to undermine the health security of Americans.

http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-treatment/why-i-still-believe-bill

Well, so far Obama has alienated his base, including activist Dems (that would be us), the unions, and this morning there was a statistic cited that indicated a lot of blacks have determined there is no need to go to the polls next year. Democratic politicians never learn and they always blame it all on liberals, although the liberal/progressive are the majority of their own party, and are the heart of the party. They don’t bother to follow the party platform once their voted into office, then they wonder what went wrong. I’m so sick of it, I can’t even express my disgust. This administration is just shades better than the Bush admin, when they have so much more to offer. Too much greed; too much time.

Hope sucks.

What I would like to know; is why they are so happy letting 200,000 Americans die before this takes effect.

In reply to TP @ 5:

Shorter Elmendorf Barbie: Accounting class is hard.

Wow! now they are lying out of their asses to give our moneys to Insurance companies.

Someone ought to take a look at how many times the Insurance Industry CEO’s visited the WH & check how many times labor union official were permitted to visit same WH.

I bet it would reveal a whole lot about Mr.Prez.

But folks the union leadership has been pathetic,they all sat back when many were voicing concern that the WH & Prez were acting like swine flu had tied their lips shut when the PO was mentioned.If the unions buckle on this,you can look forward to 3more years not mcuh better than when GWBush was Prez.

And now look how the WH is trying scare us”if this bill fails we won’t get HCR done for another generation”.Just remember the same BS about scaring folks to vote for the “Iraq war resolution”.If the Prez couldn’t invade Iraq…..well you know the story… Sadaaam would launch and it could hit the US in 45 minutes.

What Axelrod failed to say:(because he does not have the balls to tell the truth) If you get sick, die quickly! This plan just entrenches and further empowers the status quo. we got ours fuck off and die.

That is 100% it, in a nutshell.

I now understand.

In the rest of the world, healthcare is a human right.

In the United States, health insurance is a human right.

Oh, and Axelrod?…go Cheney yourself.

“This comes from a president whose mother had very cozy links with CIA affiliated groups in Indonesia, (see http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_5161.shtml), and who on graduation went to work for a CIA front company called CIS who paid off his student loans. He acquired Senator Joe Lieberman, cousin of Avigdor Lieberman, as mentor and guide, and his election to the Senate was amazingly easy when his opponent withdrew at the last moment, too late to find a replacement.”

(http://wahyusamputra.blogspot.com/2009/12/biggest-sleazeball-of-all.html)

Question: How come every one of our frightfully well informed commentators can ignore the mentor/disciple relationship between Lieberman and Obama, when it’s hardly very difficult to discover? (Not to mention that it also explains why Obama tolerates his obstructions.)

As I think it was Tim Pawlenty pointed out, where are all the dead Canadians? Here in California, many people go down to Mexico for drugs. Can you imagine things being so bad that you’ll drive down to where there are drug wars going on get your prescription filled?

Hope sucks.

That would make a GREAT bumper sticker, with the Obama “sunrise” logo as the O in Hope.

It would have been so great to have Sen. Caroline Kennedy in the Senate to argue on her Uncle Ted’s behalf. Nope. We liberal progressives kicked her ass out! Nice.

By the way, I am leaning toward getting anything passed on health care reform and then focusing on getting real progressive liberals in the Senate next year, so these new Senators along with the House can perfect this bill until it’s implemented. I also love the idea of taxing the wealthy in the meantime!

I have a Cadillac and a “cadillac health plan”. I earned both. The health plan is part of my salary, not a bonus or a subsidized gift. I don’t want to give up either one to make some lame, wig wearing DINOsaur from Nebraska look good to his constituents.

The problem is that there is no structure to enforce anything at the federal level. The entire structure of insurance regulation is based on the states, and it works reasonably well at forcing the companies to meet actuarial requirements, and to the extent that state legislatures can be persuaded to act in the interests of their citizens, the insurance department can enforce rules about policy language.

Try to imagine a federal agency regulating the business of Citigroup directly. That’s the problem. I’m not saying it can’t happen. I’m saying it won’t.

Tepid? It’s not coherent.

My mother and I had a big argument last night about this – me saying it’s worse than nothing in the current Senate incarnation – no cost controls, no public option, tiny Medicare buy-in, and did I say no cost controls? so that those with pre-existing conditions, well, they can’t refuse to insure you, but there’s nothing to say they can’t set your premiums arbitrarily high so that you can’t afford them.

Mom, meanwhile, was following the Biden op-ed in the Times – if this goes down it won’t happen again in your lifetime (I’m 44), better to have a bad bill that can be improved incrementally than no bill at all, Social Security started out lacking many things that we consider necessary, such as spouse benefits, etc.

By the way, for single-payer advocates out there, Britain’s NHS is in trouble, too. It’s not a perfect ideal solution.

Marcy should run her numbers based on current programs.

538 has a wonderful post today on why reconciliation should not be an option; like it or not, until 60 progressives are elected, getting this bill through requires compromise. And once 60 progressive are elected, the goal shouldn’t be public option, which is a silly little fad, but single payor. But I suspect that I will need to wait for that, just as I’ve waited 50 for the bill that is on the table, which is a better bill that we’ve ever had a shot at before.

I’m fully supportive of Axelrod, Obama, Reid and Pelosi on this, and becoming dreadfully sick of the progressive back-biting on sites like this.

The only reason it is happening now is that the cost increases are unsustainable.
That is not magically going to go away. It is total FUD saying this is our only chance.

Thanks to The Confluence, I read this:

I’m TOTALLY shocked that this hasn’t gotten any press at all: These changes are a significant tax increase for some people!!!

Bloomberg.com:
It would increase to 10 percent the threshold for deducting out-of-pocket medical expenses for most people in 2013. That’s up from 7.5 percent currently; senior citizens would keep the lower threshold.

The bill would place government limits for the first time on Flexible Spending Accounts, a tax subsidy for out-of-pocket medical costs provided by employers in benefit packages. It would set a $2,500 cap on amounts that could be deposited in the accounts in 2011 and adjust future limits for inflation. Currently, employers set their own caps, typically between $3,000 and $5,000.

Wouldn’t these changes hit the people who fall just above the subsidy level especially hard?

Let the spin begin.

You can pay my sons heathcare fees now, and most especially after this piece of shit bill takes effect. We’ll see how fucking supportive you are then.

Signed- Progressivefedupwithconservativedicksuckers

And Plouffe thinks Dems will forgive and forget..blah blah blah.

Health care reform, insurance reform and now we discover even drug re-importation, were all distributed out and pieces were sold to the highest bidders long ago.
For the past 5 months he and Reid and Rahm Emanuel played us along like the hopeful idiots we were.

Yet on the two issues most important and beloved to Republicans, war and finances, Obama took the bull by the horns and did what he felt he had to do with the bail outs, the stimulus, Gitmo and Afghanistan, throwing only a few bones to the Right.

Compromises, I understand and accept. But sell me out, and I’m done with you.

Our only saving grace this year will be that Reid is likely toasted in Nevada. His approval ratings have sink to 21% and any of 3 Republicans beat him by a wide margin.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections2/election_2010/election_2010_senate_elections/nevada/election_2010_nevada_senate_race

He won’t be coming back in 2011, leaving the Left to elect a real leader, and, best of all – Lieberman can’t hide behind him anymore.

2011 will be a better year.

That’s the thing. The Democrats are busily constructing false narratives just like the Republicans used to do (and still do). There is a double feint here as Blue Texan notes. The first is that the insurance will be affordable and the second is that it will actually deliver decent healthcare.

I’m fully supportive of Axelrod, Obama, Reid and Pelosi on this, and becoming dreadfully sick of the progressive back-biting on sites like this.

So don’t read it.

I think you’re right, and I was being somewhat rhetorical… just pointing out their hypocrisy.

You’d need a complete repeal of McCarren-Ferguson among other things.. but just because it seems politically impossible to achieve doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have to happen. Ditto with financial reform, more broadly. That’s the scariest part. It’s undoable and yet still it absolutely must happen.

The greatest tragedy here is thate fact that we are at a point where what is necessary for the nation’s survival has been rendered political corruption by the corruption of the nation’s political establishment.

Affirming the soft bigotry of low expectations as a viable excuse to pass bullshit, is surely one of the quickest vehicles in the race to the bottom.

“Don’t like, don’t read”?

What are you, 12?

[Mod Note: Let's stay indoors and off the playground, please]

[Edited by Moderator. Play nice now].

Then stop coming around.

Your clever arguments and razor wit have pierced me like a thousand arrows! Alas, I have fallen!

I meant, “rendered politically impossible by the corruption”

i dont have too much doubt that there will be insurance that is “affordable” for most if not all. most of it will be complete trash that does not actually provide health care to anyone .thats how come the scare quotes, i dont use the word affordable unless im talking about something anyone would want to buy.

I think we progressives need to focus on getting the special anti trust exemption for insurance companies removed. that could be the finger in the dike that is holding back the flood for them at this point. if they are forced to conduct bsusiness legally and compete (imagine that) it could have a very powerful effect.

You say you are for single payer but then you say you support Obama, Reid, and Pelosi on healthcare. If you really are a backer of single payer, there is just no way you can square that with their current sellout which mandates people buy crap insurance they can’t use, which transfers personal and government wealth to Big Insurance, which does not control costs, and which does not deliver good healthcare results.

I wnat someone to ask him why we should be forced to spend a good chunk of what income we have on ‘insurance’ that might as well not exist, for all the good it actually does. Or has he forgotten that health insurance was intended to pay for major medical whatevers, like breaking a leg (or an arm) and chemo, more than for routine visits to the doctor?

I’m fully supportive of Axelrod, Obama, Reid and Pelosi on this, and becoming dreadfully sick of the progressive back-biting on sites like this.

Simple solution: Don’t come here! Back the insurance companies all you want in their efforts to lie, cheat and steal constituent’s money with the assistance of their elected representatives. That’s your right, even in a corporatocracy, or at least, it is until they make your right to have an opinion of your own no longer a right. Just don’t do it here if you’re “dreadfully sick” of hearing our opinion, which obviously differs substantially from yours.

Walmart offers affordable insurance to its employees. The insurance is useless because of its gaps in “coverage”, high deductibles and huge co-pays.

This is the kind of affordable health insurance the lying Axlefraud is pitching. Useless garbage insurance that is worse than nothing to the poor and working people.

Axlerod, How do for-profit insurance companies suddenly become benevolent and give people actual heath care (including low cost doctor visits)?

One a motherfu always a motherfu.

Coburn (from Okie) is on the floor whining, but now that I hear why he and his pals are so upset we can give them a few bones to get their votes too:

Roots Amendment to HR 3590.
For the purposes of amending the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, the Netroots propose lifting all coverage limits on the number of colonoscopies available to all voting citizens and Representatives of the Republican party.

While a few individuals, such as many posting comments here at least say we are outraged and unwilling to let this go, the vast majority of Democrats are once more showing their classic resolve.

One of the somewhat politically active Democrats I know recently told me how he had contacted Obama et all to explain that the Public Option was his line in the sand. He didn’t like the bail-outs, the war escalation, the patriot act enhancements or the more recently Supreme Court approved power of the President to disappear any American without due-process or recourse. While those things bothered him he said multiple times in the last few months he would stop supporting them if they did this one last thing. Well of course they’ve done it and he now believes that the Krugman approach is the perfect solution. This from a guy who has often claimed to be tough and uncompromising on this one thing. Said that he understood that Democrats need to show more resolve.

The only thing that keeps the Republicans from being unable to win elections in much of the country is spineless, constantly compromising Democrats holding their hands out to the highest bidder.

When I have talked with some Republicans, in the past, that are liberal on some social issues the one thing that often comes up is the unwillingness of most Democrats to show even the least amount of gumption. It is hard to defend the cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys when there is another team that actually attempts to accomplish what they say.

Call 911. Call 911

You don’t want difference of opinion here. You want an echo chamber.

Anyone who disagrees should either keep their disagreement to themselves or simply not show up. Anyone who does voice their disagreement, even with factual backup and as politely as possible, is immediately pounced upon like the weakest zebra on the Savannah.

Remind me again why this is different than what the righty blogs, that often get mocked here, do?

My money’s on the card table option. A few will probably cast votes as they promised, but I think most will continue to do what they’ve been doing.

What current programs? The problem with the current system, which this bill only magnifies, is that it has such arbitrary divisions. Get a raise, or a second job that reports income to the IRS, and all of a sudden you’re not eligible for Medicaid. That’s the world that most of the Americans who need health care financing live in.

I think suggesting that somehow this will be better if one just uses slightly different numbers is foolish. Nothing will change substantially. Nate, and most of the other folks who chatter about this stuff, clearly haven’t been in the position of needing these services, or having so little income that they have to save up for a new set of tires.

Concern Troll Bingo, anyone?

Interesting response to a different view.

Yes, I am fully supportive of Obama, Pelosi, Reid et al. in getting this done. The faddish public option in my view turned the government payor into a post office, playing by market rules, not an opportunity to significantly reallign physician and hospital incentives. Frankly, I think the charitable, 501(c)(3) hospitals and even health plans are likely preferable to a “post office as healthcare vendor/insurer”, more likely to support innovation and top quality care. I am glad the public option appears gone; I think it was misconceived.

Broadening coverage is an enormous win, and something I’ve wanted to see my entire life. It is the real game here. The progressive left has done a lousy job of advocating for single payor, due in part to their embrace of the public option as a substitute, and has not built a coalition for it. Indeed, the coalition that I thought we were building back in the 80s and into the 90s, that got clobbered during Clinton’s first term, has not been rebuilt. The fault for there not being a viable single payor proposal isn’t Obama’s, or any particular senators. If people want to refocus on that, it’s not an easy task. “Buying crap insurance they can’t use” – what a line!! Cute, but misguided – because that insurance can be used, and this bill will have enormous ramifications for the currently uninsured.

I know, I know, I should go away and let you guys throw your stones. But you all should sign on to a few places where some people are spending more time debating the options realistically and less time getting angry with progressives like Feingold, Saunders, Schirmer and Gillibrand, who are on the front lines here and about to deliver an enormous success – if other so-called progressives will stay out of their way. You all might look at Theda Skocpol’s most recent post at TPM for example – or is she not pure enough for this crowd?

So your preferred response is that those that disagree with your position, which comes close to defending what some people find indefensible, should be what exactly?

By disagreeing with people who currently have a sense of betrayal, whether warranted or not, you put yourself in the surrogate position. So in times of other people’s heightened distress you must surely be hoping for either antagonism or capitulation. Sure a few folks may be trying to defeat your position but that is simply because they really hope that the true agent of their ire will accidentally read what they have written.

It won’t happen of course but the dream is still there.

I read a few right-wing sites fairly regularly, mostly on economic issues. but I do not attempt to convince them that everything the believe is wrong. Turns out they probably are wrong on most critical subjects but surprisingly they don’t want me to tell them that.

Obama will lose by the 10 million he won by in 2012 with this mandate.

I wouldn’t assume that some of us haven’t been in that position before. I was uncovered for years, and forget saving up for tires, since I didn’t have anything to put them on! I have no idea about Nate, but many of us advocate change in part because we have seen first hand the problems of the current system.

But you are right, today’s programs won’t cover most of those costs for someone at the income levels in there. I live in the northeast – the only viable option is charity care, and we’re lucky. This bill is a better option.

Oh for cryin’ out loud…

Maybe I’m just tired of being treated like a fucking moron. Has that ever crossed your mind?

OF COURSE NOT – YOU’RE RIGHT, I’M WRONG. THANKS FOR PLAYING.

Christ on a cracker this shit is getting old. Obviously I’m not “pure” enough for all you sainted angels and have too much of a soul to be a Republican.

Being from New York state I can tell you that if you imagine that Schirmer (Schumer?) and Gillibrand represent progressive thought then you really don’t understand the definition. Gillibrand is product of the Albany machine with all of the corruption that implies and Schumer has always taken his marching orders from Wall Street.

As for buying insurance they can’t use – that is a bad thing but does not in any way cover the problems. Since the concerns have been laid out in various posting on this site and others for the last few weeks it appears you decided to focus on the issue you thought you might win. The most general argument being played out right now by the defenders of this insurance windfall is to find some compromised middle-of-the-road liberal that has accepted that they should not actually stand for anything but would make an excellent example for the rest of us.

Book Salon a couple of flights upstairs with John Dean’s Blind Ambition: The End of the Story hosted by Rick Perlstein

I like it…

I’m with Sen. Al Franken on health care reform…

http://blog.alfranken.com/2009/12/20/al-franken-a-historic-step-forward-why-i%E2%80%99m-supporting-the-senate-health-reform-bill/

How can you be certain that you will not be part of the 20 million (million!!!) that will remain uninsured?

It would be helpful if you answered some questions such as Hugh’s @ 45″

“You say you are for single payer but then you say you support Obama, Reid, and Pelosi on healthcare. If you really are a backer of single payer, there is just no way you can square that with their current sellout which mandates people buy crap insurance they can’t use, which transfers personal and government wealth to Big Insurance, which does not control costs, and which does not deliver good healthcare results.”

Following Marcy’s lead, is there anyway we could put together a simple calculation app (something along the lines of the “down payment calculation tool” you find on mortgage sites) which folks could use to plug in their own data to arrive at a personalized look at how this bill is going to impact them? This is something that could be emailed far and wide on a true “non-partisan” basis to allow people to see for themselves.

Our (Progressives who think this bill could very well be the sellout that kills us) big problem here is this is all gobbledygook to 99% of the country who are sick of hearing about it. Marcy’s posts were CHILLING to the core and are what made me a believer here.

Unfortunately Franken should probably have stuck with his expertise.

I’m for single payer and was a Kucinich supporter (was called a “nut” for supporting this man by “progressive liberals” online because he wasn’t tall enough to be president and have pointed ears! The horrors!).

Why? Because he’s not sucking right wing & conservadem dicks?

No. Because he is doing the bidding of the Insurance and Pharmaceutical lobbies by supporting this plan.

See post 56. I never bought into public option.

But apparently anyone who disagrees with the crowd here is some corporate stooge.

But that question assumes I agree with his analysis of the bill on every front, and I don’t. I like the way Josh has been responding to posts like this – he’s said several times: “This is a good point. Why sacrifice people for incremental reform when you could stand tall for them by passing no reform at all?”

For Marcy, compare all her numbers as to what each family would pay with the bill and without any bill at all.

The point that tends to be ignored:

It takes the Senate no time to throw a trillion at wars; no discussions, no watering down, no nothing!
Worse, Bernie Sanders jerking of his single payer amendment to help piss away an equal amount on killing as on saving lives, was a real fucking eye opener?!!?

We musto make common ground with Libertarians and Independents!

Really? So you’re one who believes Wall Streeters when they say the reason why the health insurance industry’s stocks are going up is because they love the Democrat’s health care reform bill and know they’re going to profit, so they just spent all those millions for nothing? And you also didn’t believe the health insurance companies when they said they were going to go up on their rates whether health care reform passes or not which means they’re gaming the system no different than the derivatives markets?

I’m sure we’ll miss this chance in getting health care reform thanks to the republics and the ‘liberals’. Once the republics take over the Senate next year (there is a chance) nothing will get done and there will be nothing on the books for health care reform. We will all say, “Thanks for saving us!”. Spit. Not.

Yeah, typo in names relates to someone else I’m dealing with, he’ll be amused. Anyone want to hear about coverage issues and learning disabilities? I’ve got some stuff I’m mad about there, but it’s still not taking my eyes off the prize.

Learn to read, – single payer is the alternative being set forth by you, and Hugh!

“The only thing that keeps the Republicans from being unable to win elections in much of the country is spineless, constantly compromising Democrats holding their hands out to the highest bidder.”

The Dems have lost every election beginning in 94 with Clinton and Rahm Emanuel in charge and ending with a win by Governor Dean, after Emanuel left. The Republicans constantly won because the public saw the whole of Democrats as weak capitulators, when in fact it was because the DCCC and the DSCC stuffed Congress with enough pro-business centrists to block any real Democratic policies.

Emanuel now is in the WH -and here we are again, with Rahm helping Obmama keep Wall Street happy while everyone else gets crumbs. And more lies.

I take it you’re a Glenn Beck supporter. You have no problem with that asshole making $23,000,000 while saying he’s “just like you!” and feels your pain if you lose your house ’cause of your medical bills! Oh yes, you’ll believe anything except for the idea of getting health care reform on the books and then working hard to get real progressive liberals in office next year to make sure the bill is perfected by the time it’s implemented.

The answer to health care reform is NOT: republicans, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Independents, and Libertarians.

“learn to read” – cute. So cute. I am convinced.

Whatever gives you that idea, Kay.

“The answer to health care reform is NOT: republicans, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Independents, and Libertarians.” – but it is Corporations? How so?

Bernie Sanders has had my utter devotion for evah, until he jerked his amendment, because fucking Coburn decided to eat up 12 hours reading it. And to what end did Bernie jerk it? go find out before you continue talking nonsense.

Wow. How do you handle your kids? You love them until they screw up and then you ban with his enemies against him? Me? I’m a great Mom. :-)

By the way, Bernie Sanders is now back on board! Oh wait. Not supposed to say anything positive about “asshole” now, huh? By doing so would mean I’m not part of the group!

Your warped fantasies are nowhere in my comments. Answer the question; To what end did Bernie jerk a great amendment that deserved a public reading?

Why the Senate collapse? Our Senators are ‘older’ and not in to rocking their well stocked boats. Under the boldness of Pelosi we have a good bill. From Harry Reid we have weak muck.

From 94 until 2006, the Clinton ‘machine’ driven by people like Rahm Emanuel, used fear-mongering and threats of withholding campaign support if Democrats didn’t tow the line and vote the way the big donors ordered them to. Once Rahm was gone Dean began electing solid and fearless Dems the public could be proud of, we began to win and increase our majorities.

With Governor Dean gone, more or less, Rahm is back in control and our Senators have no one to left cover their wobbly backs.

I am not all that smart, and able to peruse volumes of legalese to extract a precise understanding of what’s going on. I depend on folks like, you, lots of folks like you. I read critically and I’ve been known to change my opinion.

I cannot understand how anyone can not see that mandating public, individual participation in private insurance is dangerous, and questionably legal. The virtue of the so called “Public Option” when Single Payer was ruled out, was that it was supposed to provide an affordable alternative to the private system, morally justifying the mandates, and artificially suppressing inflation, making it more palatable to the Milt Friedman religionists.

The P.O. NEVER had that power. IF the Public Option is not available to EVERY person that has a mandate, it doesn’t provide “competition.” To me this is obvious. When they coined the phrase “robust Public Option,” when they were soft soaping us down to allay organized resistance, I thought that’s what they meant, or at least, wanted me to believe.

So, no P.O. of the most “robust” definition, then NO MANDATES should be tolerated. It’s utter hogwash. This is why I opposed Hillary Clinton’s 90s H.C. Debacle and it explains my position now. HMOS are substandard thievery. While they’ve gotten as expensive as Blue Cross used to be, the Blue Crosses have become as cheesey as an HMO, regarding denying and rationing care.

American Medical Care is CLASS GENOCIDE ON THE INSTALLMENT PLAN. Please forgive my caps. This “Reform” only institutionalizes it. It’s the difference between gunning people down and leaving them in trenches in Eastern Europe during WW2, (very messy); OR putting them on trains to be sorted out for death, or worked to death. (much more tidy).

The worst thing about this, that I’ve been saying since 94, is that the pretense to “affordability” and “universal coverage” will permanently forestall real reform. We’ll be hearing about how good it is, while our last bit of purchasing power is sucked out of us, for the next 20 years.

I am aghast that this is on the verge of becoming law. I’m no genius, but I’m no fool either. I won’t let some pretentious, self-described “progressive” tell me not to worry my pretty little head, and just “trust Obama.” Good grief. Ok, rant over.

Like the rest of us, we’re sick of the republicans stalling everything on the floor because they’re afraid of the big black President in the White House in getting anything done! I agree, it was a great amendment and I would have loved to hear the whole thing read…..but Bernie like the rest of us want to see some progress. I don’t blame him for being bullshit at the right wing’s tactics.

snip
As Marcy Wheeler has diligently demonstrated here, here, and here, that’s simply not true. Not only will the uninsured not be able to afford the insurance, affording medical treatment with that insurance, as Marcy notes, is a completely different matter.

jeez cant wait for all those “benefits” like the “benefit” of sending several thousands of dollars to an insurance company for the “benefit” of paying for all your own health care anyway, or more probably, sending what little you have to an insurance company, still not having enough to make the nut, and being harrassed and garnished by the IRS. and still not get any medical treatment. thanks david axel-rod you fucking shaft. you flaming, gaping asshole.

I participated in a flash-protest today in front of Sen. Susan Collins’ Lewiston, Maine office:

http://whitenoiseinsanity.com/2009/12/20/i-participated-in-a-flash-protest-in-front-of-sen-susan-collins-lewiston-maine-office-earlier-today/

I would love to see the large liberal bloggers forming these kinds of protests or the larger ones, but then again, I remember….some would rather bitch and act paranoid while typing on their computers. Besides, it was too cold today for the weak ones!

huh? if bernie wanted to get a raise in funding for “community health care centers” i believe he and the rest of the 2/3 dem majority could have done so without selling all of us to the inurance industry. “selling” of course might not be the right word becuase the insurance indutry isnt paying for our indentired servitude. we are. why try to paint this pathetic, anemic, token from rahm and obamas “goody bag” as some kind of great big fat victory?

so what have YOU been working on ? Of course i dont expect you to give an accounting to me, i certainly am not about to give an account of my efforts to you. but think about that before popping off with the “lazy liberal” shit K?. BTW KaylnMaine the kind of political action you speak of, which has been going on all summer, which most of us here have been working hard on. is only just getting ramped up

Bernie withdrew the amendment, justifying his action by claiming that he would not hold up the business of the Senate, – all that after Nelson, Landrieu, Lincoln, Baucus, Conrad have been keeping this thing drawn out since before Summer? – Just take your fucking time Bernie, – no rush!

And what was the next piece of legislation more important than the best amendment to a corrupted piece off legislation???

That’s right: throwing 650 Billion at the DOD to continue with its Wars. Bernie, – wuzzup with that?

This bill is just another bailout of Wall Street. I don’t know how Kucinich will vote on the House side, but I am guessing that he wont be supporting it’s passage.

dont waste you breath. i think shes obama girl.

I protested in Portland Maine this summer too.

You’ve been working hard to defeat health care reform. You and the wingers want to vote against any bill even if it only contains the words: THE, BUT, AND, OF.

Obamapollogist? – I guess you’re right, thanks.

And if by some chance you and your family can scrape together the money to pay the new Straight-to-Corporate tax in exchange for what they claim is ‘health insurance’, there’s an even better chance you won’t be able to afford to use it due to deductibles, co-pays, and flat out denials.

You, Kucinich, and the rest who will be like the republicans by voting against an entire bill for one thing are idiots. Sorry, but that’s the truth. There is plenty of time to fix the bill once it’s passed by both houses and signed into law. The key is getting more progressive liberals in the Senate, but I can tell some here will be voting for republicans next year to punish the Democrats. Seriously, that is so childish, but then again, some of you love Bernie Sanders for years and then he pulls his amendment from being read and now you hate his guts worse than you did Dick Cheney’s!

Okay, I’m getting a headache. If I truly wanted to talk to right wingers I should have gone over to Redstate instead.

Continue your hate fest! Seems to be working so well so far!

Gosh, how DARE we oppose an insurance industry bailout.

If the actual goal of the bill is to deliver universal health care, then the urgency will be there to start over — maybe with one of the rather shorter bills introduced by Conyers or Sanders as a base.

If the actual goal of the bill is to enrich Wall Street — then by all means get this thing passed while the shit sandwich is piping hot.

BTW, I think that you might be more at home on a Democratic blog than here — tried Open Left? We don’t tolerate the center-right hijacking the term “progressive” ’round these parts…

I saw Mr. Axelrod, and half a dozen Senators on various Sunday morning shows. Each was trying to sell a package that seems too full of holes to me.

This is first time that EVERY Republican who appeared today made more sense to me than EVERY Democrat. The basic Republican point is that there are too many unanswered questions. There are. Yes, I know that the GOP is largely responsible for the slogging pace this bill has endured. But so have a number of conserva-dems, blue dogs et. al.

As I see the bill…..here are the nagging questions.
a) If competition is the key to forcing down costs, where is the competition.? No public option, no wide-spread exchange, no under 65 medicare.
b) The preexisting condition exclusion currently exercised by insurers is stricken BUT insurance companies are permitted to charge premiums many times the going rate. How is the individual to afford this? It looks like fakery and window dressing to me.
c) Lots of noise about no lifetime cap on benefits, BUT an annual cap is permitted. One excludes the other. No one is fooled.
d) Pharmaceutical companies continue to be able to sell drugs at elevated prices when compared to the world market.
e) No tort reform which is the key to cutting down unnecessary, defensive treatment of patients.
f) Medical corporations that own so many of our hospitals are allowed to continue practices that destroy patient finances and personal lives.

The financing of this bill seems dubious. Cutting 500 billion, how and where- no generalities…name the spots. Taxing high-end coverage plans, that hits the unions whose workers look to their medical coverage as one of the most significant attractors for their workers.

Who approves of this bill? Less than 40 percent in ANY poll. Who loves this bill? The insurers, look at Wall Street and see how investors are rushing to buy shares. What did it take to get this bill to the doorstep….compromise of essential principles (public option, taxing top income earners), give-aways to states (like Louisiana and Nebraska) and cover for those in Big Insurance, Big Pharma, Big Attorney and Big Medical Corporation pockets. And most politicians belong to one of those.

I am sorry. I am a faithful democrat. I worked hard for Obama. I have donated generously to the Party and its candidates.

I am ready to be convinced. Convince me.

The problem for the House is that their leaders fully understand how locked in the vote is in the Senate. Tom Harkin has just finished noting that the Dems could have gone the Reconciliation Route which would only have required 51 votes. They should have. The Senate is cornered and the House, if it wants a bill of any kind, is also cornered. The Conference Committee will meet to iron out differences in the Senate and House Bill. The Senators will not allow for any significant change. So the House must give in. The final bill goes back to each House and there must pass again (yep the Cloture 60 votes will be required again).

BTW, both the D party and the R party, once you get beyond the shiny packaging and sloganeering designed for well-meaning suckers, consistently ACT to make the rich richer. It’s the proletariat movements that have sprung from each of these parties, and thankfully are realizing that both of the corporate parties are waging class war against them and splitting away from them, that want this bill dead.

It is worth noting the difference in how the R party and the D party are handling the breakaways: the R party is threatening to defund candidates that don’t make nice with the breakaways, while the D party is threatening to defund candidates that DO make nice with the breakaways.

This bill benefits Wall Street far more than it will you or me. It is a corporate bill written by a corporate party, and the D party’s first allegiance is to big money, whether you like it or not.

Support is not blind acceptance. Support is also constructive and directive critique. The bill is not a good one. I am convinced that it will make the mess we currently have worse. I wrote longer comments on this elsewhere in these comments.

Everything looks rosy when you are wearing rose colored glasses. You don’t seem to have grasped the concept that insurance is not healthcare, and that the one does not lead necessarily to the other. So your expansion of coverage is really nothing more than a transfer in wealth. You also don’t seem to understand that there is nothing in the bills in either the House or Senate that will effectively control costs. These were the two major pillars of healthcare reform which Obama spoke about when he rolled out this healthcare dehate back in March. So if it doesn’t work even by Obama’s own standards how is it a good thing?

Also it is Obama’s fault because if you had paid attention to his speeches and comments he was against single payer from the outset and was instrumental in keeping it off the table.

Good points. About tort reform, a lot of things done for so-called medico-legal reasons might be cleared up if there was better policing of the medical profession and if best practices standards were accepted as a legitimate defense.

Oh my! You’re right, I didn’t grasp anything at all, and obviously this group has THE ANSWER! I hereby accept all of everyone’s conclusory statements. What insurance company had these scales inserted over my eyes when I thought I was just getting fitted for glasses!!

Look folks, the fact is that lots of people, including yourselves but also including plenty of people you are all now throwing stones at, are doing their best to improve the system we have. Do I think the Senate has the answer, or Obama, or me? No, not the whole answer, but we’re all making good faith attempts to find it.

What I see here, though, is the kind of venom that can doom progressives to remain a tiny little minority for a long time. Everyone doesn’t disagree with you because they’re stooges, or don’t understand, or need to realize something you’ve realized. Some of us, after considerable thought and years of work, and without a payoff from an insurance company, simply disagree. And that includes many, many people who have just as much right to call themselves progressives as anyone else.

This site is making itself into a parody on this issue. I wish you well, but I think you’re hurting the very movement you want very much to bring into being.

Axelrod made a statement that’s either true or not. That’s what this post is about.

If they don’t have insurance, they can get it at a price they can afford.

Now do you believe that’s the case, or not?

I would feel better about the whole situation if they would just stop lying about it. I really hate when people act like I’m some kind of moron who will believe any crap they make up. Axelrod shouldn’t say this meets Obama’s stated goals or try to say the list of campaign promises broken didn’t matter. If he just came out and said that he got to Washington and found out that the lobbyists were so strong that his choices were either at least get more coverage for some people who really need it or get nothing at all, he didn’t want to risk nothing at all. I am not so sure he was that reluctant, but at least it would be a variation of the truth instead of an outright lie. They don’t even bother with spin, they just flat out invent an alternate universe these days.

Also loved how he reiterated his respect for Dr. Dean. Guess the whole he’s a nutjob course of action didn’t pay off that well, huh?

I think it’s an important step, but not a game changer. For one thing, antitrust enforcement depends on govt lawsuits. Wanna guess how much motivation the feds will have to enforce rather than excuse? For another, all that does is allow competition, not enable it. Insurance companies are very difficult to start up because for every policy you are going to write, you have to have quite a bit in reserves in case they get cancer before they’ve made many payments, for example. This is not a cheap start-up. In the meantime, the insurance companies have set things up so they have existing contracts with providers. All they have to do is undercut with the providers for a little while, which they can afford to do because they start out with market share and reserves that make it look more likely that providers will get paid and drive the new guys out of business. This is why the nonprofits are not any different from the for profits. They either play the game the way the for profits want it to be played or they get pushed out or bought up. Same for the hospital racket. We had some smaller hospitals in our area once upon a time. One corporate outfit buys a hospital and before you know it everything else within a competitive area is either out of business or also sold to the corporation.

Lobbyists don’t relax after a win like this and say, “Whew, guess I won’t fight next year when they try to insert single payer!” Have you ever negotiated with people like this? Once they get their individual mandate, you’ve got nothing to offer them. This bill has the individual mandate, so you’ve got nothing left to trade in negotiation. Plus, you’ve taught them that being hardasses works because you will cave. This is not rocket science. Either you get it now or forget it. It will only get harder after this passes. Once the mandates kick in, it will really get difficult because they will have a ton more money to throw at the fight. If the Supreme Court expands their ability to campaign, it just makes it exponentially harder.

Here’s my nutshell test: If you took Medicare Part D and this bill to someone who had been in a coma for a few years, could they really tell that they were written and passed by different parties?

That might not be a big deal, but if you have railed against the abuses of Bush in letting lobbyists write Medicare Part D instead of excusing it as the best that could be done to get seniors some extra coverage, it’s a big deal. Historic is historic and shit is shit. You can’t have it both ways. Medicare Part D is also a good example in that you can see how well the inability to negotiate drug prices has been fixed and how well triggers work. IMO: they are both shit of historic proportions mainly because they both point to a much bigger problem that, if not fixed, will ruin more than health care in this country. Lobbyists write bills that throw me a crumb or two? Forget it. Don’t get me started on how what looks like crumbs are actually rat poison pellets.