[Welcome Mark A. Kleiman, and Host bmaz - bev]
When Brute Force Fails: How to Have Less Crime and Less Punishment
Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses …. and we’ll lock em up. With an exploding incarceration rate, punitive detention in the United States has become not just a growth industry, but a way of life. As of June 30, 2008, the DOJ Bureau of Justice Statistics reported:
- 2,310,984 prisoners were held in federal or state prisons or in local jails
- an increase of 0.8% from yearend 2007, less than the average annual growth of 2.4% from 2000-2007. – 1,540,805 sentenced prisoners were under state or federal jurisdiction.
- there were an estimated 509 sentenced prisoners per 100,000 U.S. residents
- up from 506 at yearend 2007.
- the number of women under the jurisdiction of state or federal prison authorities increased 1.2% from yearend 2007, reaching 115,779, and the number of men rose 0.7%, totaling 1,494,805
- At midyear 2008, there were 4,777 black male inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents being held in state or federal prison and local jails, compared to 1,760 Hispanic male inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents and 727 white male inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents.
Now stop, look and consider those statistics again; they are truly staggering. To lend a startling analogy for further perspective, the African-American incarceration rate today is higher than the entire incarceration rate in the Soviet Union the day Stalin died. An intellectually enlightened society would question the effectiveness of such a heavy crime and punishment ethos when it constantly increases demand for more instead of reducing it which, were it effective would be the anticipated result. Sadly, too few such questions are raised, especially by the legislators and policy makers driving our society.
One who does ask is Professor Mark A.R. Kleiman of the UCLA School of Public Affairs. In his new book “When Brute Force Fails – How To Have Less Crime And Less Punishment“, Professor Kleiman asks why, even after a decade of falling crime rates, crime remains such a huge problem, and major barrier to improving conditions in both poor neighborhoods and, really, society as a whole. But asking the question is only the first step, Professor Kleiman has gone the further, and more difficult step to give answers and propose creative and intelligent solutions.
Could the United States have half as much crime and half as many prisoners a decade from now? Yes. But not the way either liberals or conservatives normally think about the problem: not by building more prisons or “fixing root causes,” not through “zero tolerance” or “restorative justice,” not by “winning the drug war” or “ending prohibition,” not with “more guns, less crime” or national gun registration. The current system of randomized severity gets us the worst of all possible worlds: high crime rates and mass incarceration. The alternative approach that could cut both crime and incarceration rates depends on a few principles, simple in concept but requiring effective management:
● Punishment is a cost, not a benefit.
● Swiftness and certainty are more effective than severity.
● A truly convincing threat doesn’t have to be carried out very often.
● A small proportion of the offenders account for most of the crime.
● Offenders need to be warned — personally and specifically — what it is that they’re not supposed to do and what will happen if they keep doing it.
● Concentrating enforcement attention works better than dispersing it.
● Now that it is possible to monitor the location and drug use of probationers and parolees with portable GPS systems, many — perhaps most — of today’s prisoners could be safely managed in the community instead. But that depends on the willingness and capacity to use short jail stays, delivered quickly and reliably, to sanction probation and parole violations.
● The primary goal of drug law enforcement should be to minimize crime and disorder around the drug markets, not to reduce the flow of drugs.
● Not every social program helps control crime. But some demonstrably do: nurse home visits, improved classroom discipline, shifting the school day later so that adolescents aren’t on the streets when there are lots of empty homes, reducing exposure to lead, substitution therapy (methadone and buprenorphine) for opiate addicts.
● Social-services agencies need to be managed with crime control in mind, just as criminal-justice agencies need to be managed to help control disease and serve other non-crime-control purposes.
As Professor Kleiman points out, the cause does not necessarily need more money, it needs better brains and more focused, smarter goals. Having spent a good deal of the last two plus decades practicing criminal defense and civil rights law in the trenches of the American justice system, I bear witness to the desperate need for a better plan. Likewise, I can personally attest to Professor Kleiman’s relation of the issue to minorities, poverty and educational failings. Spend any time whatsoever in and around criminal trial courts, of any level, and the singular predominance of the less fortunate in the system is appallingly obvious. It is, as Professor Kleiman points out, a self perpetuating sinkhole.
Unfortunately, I also bear witness to the inertia of thought and creativity in the system perpetuated by by money and profit interests of the pertinent players and knee jerk vote pandering by politicians. Professor Kleiman has proffered some outstanding ideas, and supplied a fantastic basis for discussing the subject. His, however, are by no means the only ideas; it is up to us, both here at Firedoglake and in the greater society, to build from there.
Mark Kleiman is Professor of Public Policy in the UCLA School of Public Affairs. He teaches courses on methods of policy analysis and on drug abuse and crime control policy. His current focus is on the design of deterrent regimes to take advantage of positive-feedback effects, and the substitution of swiftness and predictability for severity in the criminal justice system generally and in community-corrections institutions specifically.
He is the author of Marijuana: Costs of Abuse, Costs of Control and Against Excess: Drug Policy for Results, and is now at work on When Brute Force Fails: Strategy for Crime Control. He edits the Drug Policy Analysis Bulletin. He blogs at The Reality-Based Community. His academic interests include political philosophy and the study of imperfectly rational decision-making and how to make policy to accommodate it.
In addition to his academic work, Mr. Kleiman provides advice to local, state, and national governments on crime control and drug policy.
Before coming to UCLA in 1995, Mr. Kleiman taught at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government and at the University of Rochester. Outside of academia, he has worked for the U.S. Department of Justice (as Director of Policy and Management Analysis for the Criminal Division), for the City of Boston (as Deputy Director for Management of the Mayor’s Office of Management and Budget), for Polaroid Corporation (as Special Assistant to the CEO, Edwin Land), and on Capitol Hill (as a legislative assistant to Congressman Les Aspin).
He graduated from Haverford College (majoring in political science, philosophy, and economics) and did his graduate work (M.P.P. and Ph.D.) at the Kennedy School.
Many of you may know Mark from his excellent blog, The Reality-Based Community, as well as articles at Huffington Post and any number of other web and print forums. “When Brute Force Fails” has received wonderful reviews and has just been named as one of the Books Of The Year by The Economist. Professor Kleiman is a remarkable fellow, passionate about his work and committed to engendering discussion of it.
Please welcome Professor Mark Kleiman to Firedoglake and join in a fascinating discussion of his new book “When Brute Force Fails – How To Have Less Crime And Less Punishment.”



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Hello folks and welcome.
Mark, Welcome back to the Lake.
Bmaz, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Thanks to Jane Hamsher, Bev Wright and the rest of the FDL team for making this forum available, and to bmaz for playing host and for his generous introduction.
Crime-policy discussions tend to wander into abstractions and simple answers (“Lock ‘em all up!” “No! Legalize drugs!”) So let me try to focus for the moment on something complicated and concrete: the HOPE probation-supervision program now operating in Honolulu but poised (via the Schiff-Poe legislation now pending in Congress) to spread to various mainland locations and to the parole and pretrial-release systems.
HOPE – started by a judge named Steven Alm – works on the principle that swift and certain sanctions can change behavior even if the sanctions aren’t severe, and that in order to make them swift and certain you need to avoid severity. In this case, the behavior is meth-taking, the population is felony probationers.
HOPE probationers are subject to random drug testing. The first time they miss a test or test “dirty” they spend 48 hours behind bars. Those punishments escalate with subsequent violations.
You might think that the result would be lots of probationers spending lots of time in jail. Not so. Precisely because drug use is virtually certain to lead to quick, unpleasant consequences, the probationers stop using. More than 80% get through a year with no more than two violations.
That simple process cuts their drug use by more than 80% and their new arrests by more than 50%. As a result, HOPE keeps probationers out of prison; they’re about a third as likely to have their probation revoked or to be sent away for a new crime as similar probationers under routine supervision.
Presto! No more revolving-door incarceration.
Compared to a typical “drug-diversion” program under which offenders are mandated to drug treatment, HOPE is much more effective in reducing drug use and crime, and much cheaper because it doesn’t waste treatment resources on people who can recover on their own with an appropriate nudge from the probation agency and the court.
Now the question to ask is why judges and community-corrections agencies nationwide aren’t rushing to put their own versions of HOPE in place. One answer is because smart crime control is not (yet) an issue with a strong group of activists behind it. I’m hoping that the book, and discussions such as this one, will start to change that.
Any interest in Washington in pursuing these ideas?
Any hope the states might take action on this California I hear needs to save some money.
Yes, on this as on many other matters it turns out that elections make a difference. There’s receptivity at both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue, and at the Justice Department in between.
Welcome Professor Kleiman. My mother recently finished 7 years of a 10 year sentence for selling drugs in Texas. Even though we requested it many times, she was never offered drug treatment or psych services, and the only drug counseling that was available at her prison were provided by volunteers from the outside.
She is now in a halfway house but it may be too late to deal with problems from 7 years ago.
How can we get some
in financial crimes? On a cost basis don’t white collar crime cost society more than blue collar crime?
Yes, California needs to save some money, and will have to let some prisoners out to comply with a federal court order, but so far we’re not having much luck getting these ideas listened to.
The current plan is to reduce parole supervision, on the theory that if you don’t watch people you won’t catch them doing things they’re not supposed to do and therefore won’t have to put them back inside. This is, of course, crazy: it’s the best way to guarantee lots of new crimes. So far, there’s no movement toward HOPE-style low-intensity sanctioning. But I have hopes.
There’s no such thing as “too late.” (And, alas, not much evidence that in-prison drug treatment helps much.) The halfway house is a good time to start. Good luck!
There is some interest in Washington actually on at least some aspects of reform, notably on the streamlining of the criminal code to simplify the criminal law and backtrack from the over-criminalization of common behavior.
As long as white defendants get easier treatment from juries and rich defendants get better lawyers punishment is less likely to be swift or certain.
Maybe blindfolds for juries and rich defendants get taxed to pay for lawyers who don’t fall asleep in Texas Death Penalty cases?
Law and Order Arnold should be impeached thats beyond crazy thats criminal.
Yes, I’d like to see financial regulators apply some of the principles of dynamic concentration to regulatory enforcement.
No doubt white-collar criminals steal more than blue-collar criminals do. But the thing about the people who rob you with a pistol rather than a fountain pen is that they cause potential victims to move away. It’s the indirect costs of crime that are really killing us.
If you had to choose between eliminating securities fraud and eliminating residential burglary or street robbery, go for burglary or robbery.
Welcome to FDL this afternoon Mark.
I am reading your book and do have a couple of questions. (I was a Sociology major my first time through college with criminology emphasis so this topic is one where I actually have a small amount of knowledge – at least enough to be dangerous).
Is there anyway to do the type of calculations and statistics analysis on white collar crimes? It seems as if they would be candidates for both the strict and sure justice (as well as the lock ‘em up and throw away the key schools) It also seems that white collar crimes in the justice system were part of the overall court system costs. Is it possible to do the study of the per crime costs of white collar crimes?
Whether it’s the bookkeeper who embezzles a small business into bankruptcy or the large corporations (Enron/Madoff) type crimes or the Jack Abramhoff style crimes, it seems there should be some study for that group of crimes as well rather than just the traditional studies of the more “personal” one on one crimes
Mark, how do you think the deterioration of the public education system and growing financial inaccessibility of quality higher education impacts on the issue?
A shorter federal criminal code would mostly be a good thing, though some of the people arguing for it would like to eliminate, for example, environmental crimes and various laws against fraud. But let’s not forget that 90% of the action is at the state level, and the prisons aren’t really filled with people who possessed bald eagle feathers.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1759791.stm
Any follow up studies on how this approach to crime works? If Bill Gates gets a new Vette and a Midlife Crises funding law enforcement might not be a problem.
The Book the ” Bell Curve Wars” had some stats on White Collar crime my copy is at my sisters place though.:(
Prison is where a very select portion of the criminal population is sent to convert them into corporate cash.
Crime always goes up during a recession because people lose their jobs. Financial Crime caused the current collapse.
One of the few sensible items in the list is
● A small proportion of the offenders account for most of the crime.
The biggest missing item is
● Legalize drugs.
The former point is too obvious to discuss
The later point would bring all the good things endlessly discussed as well as end the war in “Afghanistan” (whatever/wherever that is) largely financed by the opium & Hashish trade.
Thanks, dakine. See my response to ThingsComeUndone. White collar criminals steal a lot, but that’s all they do. Burglars and robbers instill fear, and cause crime-avoiding behavior; that’s one reason for suburban sprawl.
There are two problems in generating certainty. First, you need to be able to observe the behavior; you can’t punish what you don’t see. Second, you need an efficient process to make the sanction happen and you need adequate capacity to impose punishment.
For “blue collar” crime we’re already catching more people than we can punish. The problem with the Bernie Madoffs of the world is that their crimes go undetected. To fix that you’d need to hire more enforcers in places such as the Securities and Exchange Commission. But Republicans think that’s “wasteful government spending” and “nanny-state regulation.”
Not that much. We need better schools, and we need to do something about crime. But the evidenced that we can control crime by improving schools simply isn’t there.
On the other hand, there are early childhood interventions that clearly matter (such as the nurse-family partnership program of parent training for poorly educated young first-time mothers) and you could cut juvenile crime significantly just by pushing the high school day back from 8-3 to 10-5.
It’s widely believed that recessions cause crime. But it’s not true. The Roaring Twenties were a high-crime era; the Depression was a low-crime era. Slow growth in the Fifties was accompanied by low crime; the boom of the Sixties coincided with the explosion in crime.
We legalized alcohol. Are we having fun yet?
Alcohol is responsible for more crime and more arrests than all the illicit drugs combined.
I think that’s where I’m going. It seems the best and easiest way to combat the Republican themes is to have the studies that show the cost to society for the failures of regulation and the cost. It’s more than just a cost in money, there’s large societal costs to failure to catch and prosecute white collar criminals. Like I say, the bookkeeper who embezzles from the small business, throwing it and all the employees into bankruptcy would just be one.
The cost to society from the collapse of an Enron, where life savings are wiped out, the cost to the entire nation when folks forced to keep working because they couldn’t retire due to the lost funds. All these extract a horried societal cost yet no one seems to want to tackle them and gather the evidence to force the Rs (and Ds) to pay attention to the problem
Most of those burglars & robbers you are so fearful of are not trying to get $$$ to feed their families or the poor.
They’re mostly just desperate to get straight for a few hours because of the cost of opiates or meth.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/us/24crime.html?_r=1
This sounds like the Chamber of Commerce wants to protect businesses that import Mercury Tainted Cat food from China.
A false weather report sounds trivial but a guy walking steel 10 flights up when a quick midwestern thunderstorm comes by doesn’t think its trivial.
Yes, Violent Crimes perhaps and those are the few that really belong in prison ,,,but
alcohol plays little or no part in property crimes,,, IMHO
Yes, and when you put them on HOPE-style drug testing, they stop using, and mostly stop stealing. I don’t know what the beer and cigarette companies could do if you have them cocaine, heroin, and meth to market, but I don’t want to find out. We can break the drugs-crime link without legalization. Let’s.
Excellent point. Although I will note that the local US Attys office here is very aggressive about prosecuting cactus poachers.
Back to your response, it is very true that, despite the focus of the national press and bigger national blogs on the hot button Federal cases, the vast majority of criminal law occurs under state law and in state and local forums. And, as I briefly alluded to in the post, the constant drumbeat by preening and posturing politicians to be “tough on crime” and “tougher on crime” than the next guy or other state, has been a huge factor behind the fix we are in. Mandatory sentencing, over-criminalization of conduct that either should be handled in either a regulatory or civil format and the belligerent turn to solely punishment and incarceration at the expense of remediation and rehabilitation is a trend that would appear to be difficult to abate. It is too easy of a way for politicians to pander. Do you have any ideas of how to turn the political conversation in that regard in a more logical and positive direction?
I worry about the effect of privatizing the prison industry — since they are “for profit” it would seem to be in their interest to make sure we keep locking up people. I saw a special on “Now” which reported that the lobbyists for these companies often “write” some of the laws.
When people got to poor to afford illegal booze the crime dropped. As did the crimes to defend gang turf.
Stealing food for the family I’m sure has less profit loss to society than a truckload of moonshine if we count crimes by dollar numbers.
Speculation what some might call criminal speculation caused the Great Depression.
The combination of cocaine and alcohol iforms a molecule called cocaethylene in the bloodstream, and cocaethylene is terrifically effective at unleashing violence. As to meth, everyone knows the sort of behavior that unleashes.
Yes, you could reduce crime by legalizing heroin, though I wouldn’t want to. But I doubt legal stimulants would bring the violent crime rate down.
Somehow the rest of the world handles preventing booze crime better than our current approach whats their secret.
Yes, my idea is to tell people that they can be safer, and hope that they will prefer safety to vengeance. But that starts out by admitting that, despite the huge crime decline, they’re not safe, and that they’re right to be concerned about safety. One reason the dumb “law-and-order” response to crime is popular is that it’s opposed, not by genuinely smart-on-crime policies such as HOPE, but by equally dumb “root-causes” responses, which don’t reduce crime and also don’t satisfy the urge for vengeance.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/us/24crime.html?_r=1
Was this a real case?
I’m no fan of the private prison industry, but the prison guards’ unions are pretty good at lobbying themselves. What I’d like to see us try is not-for-profit “charter prisons” run by NGO’s.
Don’t look now, but aside from homicide we no longer lead the developed world in crime rates; in property crimes, and even in non-fatal violent crimes, most of Western Europe has caught up to us. (The lower prevalence of guns reduces the lethality of violent crime in Europe.)
You are entitled to your opinions (however incoherent) ,,, but to say
…dropped. As did the crimes to defend gang turf. (Too many sics to count. cw)
simply defies history. Just look up Al Capone’s wiki for the reall dope.
Well, that may be, but the illiteracy rate of the general prison population is stunning. It has been a while since I researched and argued that statistic, was probably in the mid to late 90s, but I recall presenting some evidence indicating well over 70% of the prison population (prison, not jail) was functionally illiterate.
It could have been a real case. The forfeiture business got pretty crazy in the 80s. Less likely now – though I’m sure there are still people losing the wheels they need to get to work that way – but the forfeiture system remains a big problem. (Note that the libertarian law professor is outraged about a yacht owner, not about some poor schlub who loses the crappy car he can’t afford to replace. Gotta love libertarians.)
Yes, and there’s evidence that literacy programs are among the small number of in-prison programs that actually cut recidivism. But that doesn’t mean that it’s bad schools that caused the crime in the first place.
We spend more money on prisons than we do on schools. When the reverse was true we had less people in prison and a more literate population. But that was also back when we actually had an economy. How does one deal with the people who are getting out of prison and cannot find work? What will we do if the economy doesn’t get better for years?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Capone#Conviction_and_prison
The public education budget is about 10 times as large as the prison budget. We now spend more on prisons than on state universities, and that’s a problem for the universities. And we spend more per prisoner than we do per student.
well over 70% of the prison population (prison, not jail) was functionally illiterate.
I think that also holds true for the commenters over at Politico.
[Mod Note: Please stay on topic of the book. Thank you]
Hi Mark really good to have you here.
I’ve seen you write about appropriate regulation of Marijuana and we’ve had a few emails about the size of that market. For FDLers that are interested could you provide a precis of your views on this?
This could be a starting point for talking about drug harms and appropriate response in general. For example what is your opinion of decriminalization in Portugal?
Finally it seems to me the main problem with implementation is how to reach low information voters that vote for fear based retributive policies.
http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/miron.prohibition.alcohol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt#First_term.2C_1933.E2.80.931937
Your point is???
The gang wars went on well into the depression.
Capone was just the best known of an endless series of capos & godfathers.
Jeez, where did you grow up? In a cave in Utah?
Oh, agreed, I was being pretty broad when I referenced deteriorating education.
Sometimes my facts morph into something quite spectacular.
Not only that, there’s this
and this
The Murder rate went down
prohibition ended early on in the Depression. What were the gang wars about after the 21st amendment was ratified (76 years ago today)?
Portugal decriminalized drug use – that is, people who take illegal drugs, or who have such drugs in their possession, no longer face criminal penalties for doing so. That seems to have worked reasonably well; Portugal had a small drug problem before it decriminalized, and still has a small drug problem.
But our prisons aren’t full of people doing time for drug possession, and the Portuguese system leaves drug dealing just as illegal as it was.
As to cannabis, I’d like to see people allowed to grow their own, or form small non-profit consumers’ coops to produce it for them. What I wouldn’t like to see is billboards with semi-naked women promoting different brands of pot.
As we see from the cases of alcohol and tobacco, legal drugs support large industries with skilled marketing departments. And what those marketers know is that the majority of users who don’t get into trouble also don’t use enough of the product to keep the companies in business. Cigarette marketing is about creating and sustaining nicotine addiction; alcohol marketing is about creating and sustaining alcoholism. Pot or cocaine or meth or heroin marketing would be the same.
Mark, have you had any interaction with the Federal Judicial Conference on any of these issues? I know they have long been active in seeking to redraw the Federal Sentencing Guidelines and discretion of individual judges to deviate on a case by case basis. I wonder if they might not be receptive to some of your suggestions.
I can’t find anything on google about this case the GOP might have found another imaginary Welfare cheat driving a Caddy story and the NY Times as usual is not fact checking anything.
Great Comment!
Yes, as I said: we spend more total on education, but we spend more per prisoner than we do per student.
That $49k isn’t a waste of money if the person filling that cell would otherwise be mugging people. The question is: can we control that person’s behavior at a lower cost to the rest of us and doing less damage to him and his family? I think the answer is “yes”: a combination of drug testing and position monitoring, enforced with the minimum effective dose of swift and certain sanctions, could produce most of the benefit of a prison cell for a fraction of the cost in money and suffering.
But the notion that we should just abolish prisons because they’re a waste of money doesn’t appeal to me.
No contact so far. I’d be happy to try.
The gangs rose in power as they accumulated wealth and influence during prohibition. With this new power they expanded into other rackets during and after the repeal of the 18th amendment.
Prohibition provided the seed $$$ for enterprises previously inconceivable.
The building of Las Vegas comes to mind for one.
joining late, welcome. sorry if this has been asked, but there seems an intensification of militarization of the police. Iraq-style shock and awe relating to suspects. zero tolerance authoritarian-relating and questioning. could you comment.
also, the horrors of violence, sexual assaults, gang totem power and revenge, going on in prisons, how best could these be challenged? Are there any prototype successful prisons out there?
Notice how much more fun it is to argue about the history of the Volstead Act, and pretend that an imaginary policy called “ending the war on drugs” is going to solve all of our problems, than it is to think about the concrete work of improving the criminal justice system so we can have less crime and less punishment.
Maybe because for the last 8 years our young men who like violence and guns have had a war to go too?
Young men do commit more violent crime and if your violent Iraq might seem like a great place to cut loose.
My belief is that the current 1500-bed prison is about a factor of 10 too large. But I can’t point to a place that has made smaller prisons work.
so much wrong with our prisons, and yet we have a population that spends millions of hours watching tv about crimes and law and order. we get an education in the commission of crimes and the police and prosecution. The after-part, not so much.
Sorry to let the facts get in the way of a nice theory, but crime declined drastically from 1994-2004 and hit a trough just as the Iraq War started to ramp up.
FDR makes booze gets legal murder rate drops. Yes loan sharking is a crime but dead clients don’t pay.
have you commented yet on those bottom feeding judges that sent kids to jail for kickbacks?
it is depressing the almost guaranteed recidivism of sexual offenders. any comment on dealing with this problem?
Mark, you have to define what security level the prison is first, lower security level – lower costs.
The for-profit prisons have more problems / violence, because of the for-profit motive (i.e., lower quality food,)
No. Shall we send those judges to prison, or offer them supportive psychological counseling for their addiction to money?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton
The Clinton economy provided jobs and Bush did not dismantle that over night.
Yes, lower security means lower costs. Of course, the costs would be lower yet if we had those people closely supervised on the street. As to your claims about for-profit prisons, what’s the source? Many of our public prisons are nothing to write home about. And the profit motive alone won’t give you the level of cruelty produced by a vote-seeking sadist like Joe Arpaio.
It was a
for profitstate run prison in Kentucky that had a riot a few weeks ago. A couple of guards did try to tell the investigating commission that the bad food was the cause but the folks on the commission bought the corporate version that it was just a bunch of bad actors.Edit: It is in line with an old practice in County jails in a lot of the south (that still exists in some) where the sheriff gets so much per prisoner per day for food and gets to keep whatever he doesn’t spend
Second Edit: Food was provided by Aramark under contract rather than inmates.
Portugal saw significant net decreases in use after decriminalization.
Why do we have so many drug dealers?
I’m not clear on how Tobacco marketing works to create or sustain nicotine addiction given the restrictions place on advertising (no TV, prominent warnings of adverse effects). And I’m unconvinced that alcohol wouldn’t be profitable without alcoholism. Can you point me to information that supports your contention?
Increasing access for problem users is a valid issue. I take your point that we don’t want marketing to vulnerable populations. I wonder about slippery slopes though – marketing high fructose drinks to those vulnerable to obesity has societal costs.
Magazines like High Times already feature semi-naked women promoting different strains of pot. I have no idea if the illicit market benefits from this, my experience is that (medical) consumers choose based on subjective criteria – the pretty bud/semi-naked woman doesn’t register as a brand, more as an example for comparison with what’s available.
You took the words right out of my mouth.
While alcohol is legal and still lots of arrests, to make an addict a criminal does not seem like much of a solution. Thom Hartmann had a Danish legislator on who brought in some of her addicted constituents. Because they were not being moral nanies and making citizens criminals, they were able to maintain their addiction, be productiove as working citizens, and not have to hit little old ladies over the head for their purse because of the high cost and unavailability of the drugs they were addicted to. Simply because they were able to get their drugs legally and safely. No they could not be pilots, or bus drivers, but they could work for a wage and contribute to their families. The crime rate goes down, murders subside, and families are not torn apart because they are able to work within the Systerm to get help.
Also I worked in transitional housing and the one housing project that did not insist on being “dry”, run by nuns, actually had usage GO DOWN with residents and their housing was some of the most pleasant around the district they were in ~ flower boxes included. No added crime or drama! This was because addicts and alcoholics finally got stable housing so they did not live in chaos.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (LEAP, http://www.leap.org) are correct about this issue.
Cat In Seattle
Mark, are there ways you could suggest for our readers to get involved on this issue at a state and local (or Federal I guess)? As you probably know, one of the hallmarks of FDL is the willingness of the community to jump in and get involved in worthy causes. I think any ideas and suggestions you have in this regard would be welcomed.
The Volstead Act is brought up because it is relevant to alcohol control policy and by analogy to other controlled substance policy.
Black markets are crucial parts of many social problems. Alternatives to black markets may be a necessary part of reducing crime and punishment and improving criminal justice policy. Eg non-profit cannabis grow coops… I take it the evolving quasi-legal dispensary system would be dismantled?
How much of the crime “problem” is actually created by the promotion of every crime on the daily news? I live in a city that has a fairly high crime rate, but I am rarely afraid that I will be a victim of crime. I think burglary is the crime we are most likely to have in our neighborhoods, but every single other type of crime is pushed on the TV news.
Thanks.
As a kid I grew up in a NY population that included several damaged WW2 & Korean war wounded veterans who were addicted to government supplied morphine.
They owned shops & held jobs like everyone else. Most of the neighbors did not know they were “Hooked”.
Sorry, wmd, but even Glenn Greenwald’s Cato Institute report doesn’t claim decreases in drug use overall; drug use decreased in a couple of younger age brackets (coincident with declines in the same group in other countries in Europe) and went up in older groups. None of the changes was especially large.
As to tobacco and alcohol marketing, those industries spend billions per year in advertising (not counting what they spend supporting friendly politicians). 80% of the volume sold is sold to people with substance abuse disorders, so if that money isn’t making addicts it’s being wasted. You’re free to believe that the brewers are wasting they’re money, but I don’t.
I doubt that any of those people are still holding jobs. That stuff just isn’t likely to be good for you in the long run.
bmaz, that’s the key question. We need to find progressive candidates at every level who want to get past chanting slogans and work for smart policies. If anyone finds such a candidate – especially for Governor – please put that person’s staff in touch with me; I’m glad to help out.
I think Diane Denish, who will be the next Governor of NM will be interested in your approach.
I’d like to second this request: What concrete work do you recommend to help with implementation of better policies?
Any ideas how to reform Prop 36 to include HOPE style recidivism reductions? It seems to me that ethical Harm reduction advocates should be on board with this.
Jonathan Tasini visited FDL earlier today, going for US Senate from NY. Seems like a real mensch!
Where do you get the 80% of volume sold is to problem users figure? It strains my credibility.
Actually, the California legislature passed an amendment to the Prop. 36 implementing language that would have allowed HOPE-style sanctions. The legalization advocates who invited Prop. 36 and designed it not to work went to court and blocked the change, on the grounds that making mandatory drug treatment actually mandatory would have violated the will of the voters.
Survey results, from a question asking people how much they drink.
Top 10% averages 4 or more drinks per day year-round. (Where a drink is a can of beer, a glass of wine, or a shot of whiskey. They account for 50% of the alcohol.
Next 10% averages 2-4 drinks per day. They account for another 30%.
See Philip Cook’s book Paying the Tab.
Would it be helpful to treat DUIs with the same testing/lock up as has worked with meth users?
Apologies for going OT above.
I have a couple more observations, if I may.
● Concentrating enforcement attention works better than dispersing it.
Mmmm, Aren’t our Dunkin Donuts already well enough protected?
● Social-services agencies need to be managed with crime control in mind, just as criminal-justice agencies need to be managed to help control disease and serve other non-crime-control purposes.
I’d rather not have Doctors & Nurses wearing law enforcement credentials. I’d also not want to see cops wearing white frocks; and probably do not want them serving any “non-crime-control purposes”,,, unless they are willing to pick up litter.
Yes, and South Dakota’s 24/7 Sobriety program seems to work spectacularly well at keeping repeat DUI convicts dry and out of prison.
http://www.alcoholmonitoring.com/ams_files/case_studies/cs09_sdakota.pdf
Has HOPE been successful at preventing new dealers from coming in? Helping individual users/dealers stop problem behavior is good. What happens once they no longer have swift and sure sanctions (after completion of their term of supervision)? I hope that there’s a lasting change in behavior and relapse is less of a problem than with other policies.
What proportion of the problem user population gets helped by HOPE policies? HOPE clients are referred via traditional drug law enforcement approaches or are there additional ways for problem users to come under sanction?
My recollection of Glenzilla’s report was that it did show significant decreases in Portugal vs other European countries over the time period. I haven’t read it recently however and I could be mistaken.
That is great. I will be sending this link and info about the book to people who can make a difference here. We have a notoriously bad problem with alcohol addiction.
Does your book address any data on the genetic prediposition-if any- toward alcoholism , drug addiction,actually substance abuse in general?
There are lots of rules applying to probationers; too many, probably. Most aren’t enforced. You need to tell people which rules are for real.
Here’s an example of a crime-control agency worry about non-crime control purposes: TB testing in jails.
And here’s an example of a non-crime-control agency being managed with crime control in mind: the trauma unit of a hospital not being satisfied with patching up the victim of the latest gang shooting so he can go out and do the next shooting in revenge, but paying attention to breaking the cycle of retaliatory violence.
Which of those are you against, cwolf?
Sorry, I misread your bit on the rules.
I have removed that critical comment of mine.
As we come to the end of this lively discussion,
Mark, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending your afternoon discussing your new book and the justice system.
Bmaz, Thank you very much for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t bought Mark’s book yet, here is a link.
Thanks all.
Thanks, I’ll check it out. And thanks for coming today, it’s a pleasure to engage with you.
There’s a constitutional argument for not drastically altering a voter proposition… I’d hope that would result in taking changes to the voters – that DPA would be lobbying the legislature to implement HOPE under Prop 36 by asking for voter approval rather than stopping it. It’s hypocritical to do otherwise in my opinion.
I wrote a different book on drug abuse and what to do about it. It’s called Against Excess: Drug Policy for Results. Yes, there are genetic variations in susceptibility to substance abuse disorder. The predispositions are strong enough so that if you have two alcoholic uncles you should probably decide not to drink at all. But it’s not the case that only a minority of susceptibles are at risk of substance abuse, which is a statistically predictable outcome of the use of certain chemicals. And no, there’s no such thing as an “addictive personality,” unless you mean the personality traits produce by years of substance abuse.
Mark, thank you for your time today and I highly suggest that people buy and read When Brute Force Fails.
I wish the DPA (Drug Policy Alliance) had any interest in good policy, as opposed to ideological purity. They’re against anything that would actually force someone to stop using drugs; that would be immoral, in their view, and they’re just as willing to sacrifice good outcomes to moral prejudices as the drug warriors. Right now, they’re simply denying that the Hawaii results are real.
David Dayen is upstairs!
Endgame? Obama To Capitol Hill On Sunday
Bev, bmaz, my thanks to both of you, and to all those who participated.
TB testing in jails is done by medical professionals, not cops or jailers.
The hospital personnel are not acting as cops when they report evidence of a felony to the cops. They are acting as citizens who are required to by law to report felonies known to them. Just ask Maurice Clemmons’ sister why she is in jail as we chat.
I agree but aren’t you assuming everyone in prison is guilty with that statement? I agree the vast number are, but there are people who have been set up and are in prisons and jails right now. I know for a fact that someone I know personally was set up by a witness who was coerced into trying to entrap my acquaintance into saying something on the phone that was being taped that was untrue because the investigators wanted a person the witness knew to go behind bars. BTW my acquaintance was working for the defense and is in a legal profession
You say
I agree if you mean sociopaths. Correct me if I’m wrong but that only comes out to 4% of the population according to an FBI agent I listened to on a local radio show awhile back
You probably didn’t mean to imply I think all prisons should be abolished. But, I do think the number of prisons can be vastly reduced. Just take the 4% I mentioned above and multiply it by a factor of 10, you’re still talking about far less prison beds
I’m sure you’ve read this article and as you know, the numbers have gotten worse
Thanks, Mark. Looking forward to reading your book!
The longevity of the HOPE results is something that concerns me – everything I know about the nature of problem users makes me think that a fairly large proportion is likely to relapse at some point. A close friend works in methadone maintenance, he sees his clients stabilize, then return to heroin use regularly. His ability to sanction relapse is virtually non existent though…
Even if HOPE only helps for short to medium term it’s worthwhile. And DPA should lose ideological blinders and support helping people quit as opposed to treatment as an end in itself regardless of efficacy.
Laura Flanders’ GRITtv (the best blog you are not reading) is now on the front page!
Week in Review: A Voice from Afghanistan
I don’t have references handy, but my parents knew a couple of fishermen from Gloucester, MA whose boats were
stolenconfiscated by law enforcement for trivial amounts of marijuana residue (not even the drug itself!) found on-board.The fact is that asset forfeiture laws are nothing more than a license to steal. They should be either revoked entirely or require a conviction of the owner of the property in order to operate.
I should add that those cases happened in the 1980s.
HOPE has been an active program for only 5 years.
While under supervision probationers change behavior and are discharged with fewer violations. Whether this leads lasting changes in problem behavior and improved life skills remains to be seen. Recidivism rates obviously need to be tracked. I hope that it leads to reduced recidivism.