Before we start: There’s been some rudeness recently in Movie Night, and it’s really uncalled for. If you don’t care for a subject, don’t participate. If you can’t say something nice, have a glass of wine, some cake, and hot bath instead.

We’re talking about God and religion, areas that for some people are sensitive and/or hot buttons. Please avoid ad hominem attacks and don’t diss other people’s faiths. Thanks.

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That being said: Let’s welcome Peter Rodgers who has a made a visually stunning and intellectually stimulating movie about man’s concepts of God, religion and ourselves. Thank you Peter!! I was an editor and writer for a religious history magazine–my job was to make faiths exciting and accessible to the mainstream, so this movie was so exciting for me.

Could you tell us a both about your background, how you got started making OMG, how long it took and how you got ahold of all your interview subjects–the famous, the royal, the religious, the philosophical and the everyday people all of whom had something to say about God and religion?

Thank you Lisa!

Could you tell us a both about your background, how you got started making OMG, how long it took and how you got ahold of all your interview subjects–the famous, the royal, the religious, the philosophical and the everyday people all of whom had something to say about God and religion?

I was making television commercials, and working in advertising. I got to a point of frustration both artistically and then….

with what was going on in the world – where you have a very school-yard childish mentality where human beings were taking the name of God to use for their own agendas….

…especially after 9/11 – so i decided to go around the world and ask people what this entity by the name of God meant to them to see if we could perhaps learn something. OMG is a result of that journey

Welcome to Firedoglake – so glad you could be here this evening!

It was a two and a half year journey and 13 months of editing that overlapped into a 3-year venture

Great to be here

How did you find your subjects? They were so varied and cool and unhomogenized.

…. I would choose a country and research who would be good… then allowed room for serendipity to take place…

…so one interviewee would say – you should see this person – then that person would lead to someone else – and on and on

With celebrities – I pursued some and then some came to me

…through friends or from hearing about the film etc.

I am watching the trailer on you website right now and I want this movie – it’s beautiful. Thanks for being with us.

I loved the genteman in Lahore, and the school kids…Sir Bob..Ringo.

Actually Phyllis Curott, a Pagan author who sends regards from the Parliament of world Religions, commented on this–that there weren’t that many women compared to men profiled. And thanks for including Doreen Valiente’s writings! )I love DV!)

You are very welcome

Yes – the women interviewed were so generous in spirit – it didn’t drive the story along.

The variety of religious expression you found was so great – it’s interesting even for people who are very sure of their beliefs to see how other people solve this age-old problem.

When I was in Russia I finally got an answer to why they revere their paintings and icons. They don’t view it as worshiping the object, rather, as using beauty to draw the mind towards God. We do something similar in US with music. It’s not the music itself that is honored, but the higher thought it inspires.

Monotheistic religions killed off the matriarchal society

Music and art take us to a state outside ourselves -

like a form of meditation – which can elevate us to what some describe as being closer to God.

I suspected that it what you said, and also since most religions are patriatchal nowadays, it makes sense ot see men who have opne spirits provide some insight.

BUT OMG! Teh woman in the gun store and others who believe/think, despite being in monotheistic faiths, that there are lots of ods, just there’s are better. Unclear on concept!

That’s why that lady made the cut. It is a fascinating point though. It amazes me that most prophets were men – that all of Jesus’ disciples were men – that God is in the image of a man. It is the old ways that revere the earth as female. The indigenous belief-systems also

Agree – wondering if we Protestants threw the baby out with the baptismal bathwater when we got rid of anything visually interesting during the Reformation. Stained glass windows barely make the cut.

One thing that many people in OMG kept coming back to was the idea of love and heart. In Thelema “love is law” and in Dan Brown’s The Lost Symbol (painful to read but necessary for work) the lost word that is the secret name of God is LOVE

Would you agree with Tom Lehrer, when he said, “I’m sure we all agree that we ought to love one another and I know there are people in the world that do not love their fellow human beings and I hate people like that.”

Monotheistic religions killed off the matriarchal society

Please explain. How widespread were matriarchial societies at their zenith and just how did monothesism change that.

…It is a good use of the word GOD. I found Dan Brown’s book quite interesting on his objectivity and unity of global ideas towards God. Made total sense to me actually

Woow that would take very fast typing. in the old belief systems there were goddesses and MOTHER earth. monetheistic religions genderized God into the male image of a man. God the father.

When making the film that is why I asked a question “What is God” rather than “Who” so as to look at God as an entity rather than in th image of “man”

Just because there were a few not very powerful goddesses in Greek and Roman civilizations doesn’t mean they were matriarchies. In fact, quite the reverse.

What is God to you?

Peter, did you get into evolution vs. creationism with any of the people you interviewed?

take for exampe the temple of Artemis of Ephesus, which was originally a site of worship for Cyblele and through the transitions of faith became the Temple of Diana, and was eventually castigated by Paul in Ephesians 1 & 2. the temple was destroyed and all vestiges of her worship basically eradicated (though some early Christians claim Mary, Jesus’ mom was buried there).

Yes – and it would have to be another film – It opened up an amazing topic – but that topic couldn’t be brush-stroked. Funnily enough, most of the people out of the US were much more in the line of evolution under the power of God.

New religions destroy (or try to) old religions. Don’t think it has anything to do with gender.

Humans are descended from chimps, and alpha male behavior is baked in the genes.

While standing on the steps of the worlds oldest library in Ephesus the guides tell you Mary once lived high on a hill above it all.. which they point out and one can see.

Couldn’t agree with you more. Funny how it’s mostly men who take take God’s name and use it to manipulate others.

yes…and ephesus was the site where the bishops had a big argument about theotokos va christotokos…

It’s a wonderful place. I’ve been there a couple of times – not on OMG… Most amazing situation.

And take a spsicific concept of God as well.

I got a kick out of the man who felt Allah didn’t translate to “God”that they were different concepts (rather than ways of visualizing the Divine).

I’d get that sometimes when I worked in an ocult supply shop “Well what do YOU call YOUR God..”

Whem my reply “God” didnt satsify the querent, I’d respnd “I call God Shirley and sometimes I call God at2 am. Collect…”

Did you find that younger generations had a different view of God than their elders? And were Muslins who have been out of the Middle East for years less strict?

I would like to camp/sleep there.. under the stars… and really listen.

That’s funny. God is such a deeply personal thing to so many people.

Younger people are much purer in spirit that elder people.

There is somethinmg wonderful about children… when humans first start interacting with the world – there is no intolerance. There is no discrimination. It’s when they start to grow up and are influenced by others that the ego starts to drive the human

Kids to me emboddy the sense of true – well let’s use the word Godliness because of that innocence. That is something we adults should learn from.

Peter have you looked at any of the writings of V. S. Ramachandran and others on the brain and God?

And were Muslins who have been out of the Middle East for years less strict? To answer that – well – I think the perception of muslims has been terribly distorted by groups of extremists with very loud voices

I don’t think there is any geographic rule. There are very strict Muslims in England, the US France – but what do you mean by strict? Not drinking alcohol, wearing a burkha?

I agree. I was thinking perhaps in terms of marriage.

also How God Changes Your Brain: Breakthrough Findings from a Leading Neuroscientist by Andrew Newberg M.D. and Mark Robert Waldman and boks by Mark Alper on the brian and God?

The why really to me is cool, but most importanlty is HOW we manifest the idea of God–through love and kindness of my jealousy and greed? Who is your god?

It is truly a peaceful place with sweeping views of the med, layered on a hill with very intact ruins. You can feel the vibe of centuries past.

Marriage – I don’t think the traditions change that much really. Of course – there are very strict Sharia laws in soime places, and in other countries the strict Muslims still adhere to those rules even though thay may not be the law of the country they live in.

You asking me Lisa?

I just finished research on Orthodox Jewish marriage, and talk about strict. There’s a lot that very controlled and purely for procreation. Which is sort of a bummer.

I think there’s a very good reason we invoke God during l’acte d’amour…and not because we’ve forgotten the name of the person we’re with either!

Yes about those books…

There are some great jokes about that – but I’d better not say them here.

And for screenings in the your area, go to omgmovie.com and click on screenings.

Bouwhahahaha.

I have not read those books… What I found though during the course of making OMG is how human beings complicate things so much

Some of the best codes of practice are the most simple.

LOL. We are a pretty messy bunch.

Since OMG is the name and God may be invoked during I’acte d’armour, I thoght this story would be of interest. I suspect many here already have seen it but here goes anyway: “Is Hell exothermic or endothermic”

http://www.movietome.com

We over think and have so many fears. We’re very primative little organisms (almost spelt that wrong with reference to your earlier comment) on a big rock in a scary vacuum desperate to hold onto something. Point is – we can all hold on without having to push other people away.

I read it a while back and think it AMAZING. I’m glad he got an A

or was it a she?

Let me just say that I can believe in a “god” so long as there are no anthropomorphic baggage attached, and that is a biggie. Also, the contrariness of the Judaic/Christian God is just too much for me to accept. Yet my own experience demands that a place for such a being, for lack of a better word, that is beyond my direct knowledge, exists.

Especially the part where he determines everybody is going to hell!

Well said.

Just getting here. When I studied French in high school it re-informed my view of Christianity because they have masculine and feminine nouns. “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” in English feels all masculine, but in French the Holy Spirit is feminine. Really made me think…

It is a particularly clever response on all levels – in fact the answer is deeply layered.

Thank you, Peter.

A good point. I wonder if that is the case in other masc/fem languages?

I believe it’s true for all the Romance languages, but other than that I don’t know. Mr. Marion in Savannah could tell me about the Greek in the New Testament, but he’s taking a nap!

Oh well. Don’t wake him. We’ll take it as a feminine spirit!

And some writers describe Mary (mother) as the 1st Disciple. I like that.

Mr. Rogers, I enjoyed the lovely trailer and appreciate your– and your creative team’s– effort. I noticed in sections what appeared to be Tibetan Buddhists, Sihks and Zen (Ch’an) practitioners. I thought it interesting to put together examples of philosophical practitioners with religious practitioners, non-theists with mono/ploy- theists, with a tag using the word “God.”

Yep…. although not “official” in the bible.

When you’re talking about God, yes, very complicated because it’s so personal. So very many ways to experience.
I don’t think we can have this conversation without leaving our egos at the door. But, that’s a very difficult task.
As long as we don’t presume….

And, there’s a whole group/cult/buncha folks who say it was the other Mary.

mzchief – Thank you. For me, what I learned is that it is all the same… There really seems to be no difference between any philosophies – although many theologians would hang me out to dry – I put it this way – There are many paths up the mountain – but when you get to the top – the view is always the same.

Peter, what did learn on YOUR journey making this about your views towards god?

If I’m not too badly mistaken Mary Magdalene was highly ranked in the early church, but maligned later. (No, I’m not getting that from Dan Brown, but simply from the fact that she’s so prominently mentioned in scripture.)

and what are you working on now?

I’ll fill in for the moment then.

In biblical (Koine) Greek, there is also a neuter gender for nouns. Add to that, that the Greek verb is far more complex than English verbs.

Imagine a verb tense that sounds like the simple past, but it is actually “time less” and just used for story telling. That’s the Aorist tense.

Greek also as an additional mood, beyond indicative, imperative, and subjunctive. It’s called “optative” and is essentially a “wish” mood.

Add all that together, and narrowing down translations into English, as well as the Romance tongues, becomes quite the chore and a ton of nuance is missed.

Ah ha – THE question. I learned that human beings are complicated, but at their base level a wonderful “species” I had restored faith in the human race and I also learned that unfortunately there are those that politicise “God” and use it to make other human beings eke out their own nefarious agendas – and that is what causes conflict.

Thank you Kelly!

I think that’s right; just not in the same disciple sense as the Mother, as I understand the commentators.

Lotsa stuff on the internet about that. Not Brown. Look at Josephus. (spelling) Some feel that because of the roles that woman played, the Gospels changed Mary M. to John. It’s interesting reading if you are curious. I don’t buy Anything blindly, but find it curious and intriguing reading.

I am sitting here with a huge flood of information running through my being, rational, irrational, experiential, transcendent, you name it. I wish I could organize it better, but finally, it seems that to explain it is to miss the point. It probably is summed up that, in some religions, God has a name that cannot be spoken. That, in turn, points to the concept that whatever one can say about God, it is wrong, because the opposite of whatever is being said is also valid, and therein lies The Paradox.

I am working on drama now. I am starting the casting and pre-pro on a script I wrote set in Pittsburgh. Very different from OMG

and Lawrence Blair – one of the interviewees in the film – says That whoever tells you what God is – mis-trust them!

Wow! Thanks so much. I do believe I’m very grateful that I never had to study Greek… (I was enough of an idiot trying to learn French and we share an alphabet!)

It’s a great paradox. The best thing is to breathe! Like the tao – you can spend your life looking for enlightenment (teh bull) and then when you find it – you realize you’ve been riding it all the time.

For anyone interested…I read John Shelby Spong’s Jesus For The Non-Religious was extremely fascinating. Lots of history and context.

The film is on my list!

I’ve heard about it and want to read it. I do think Jesus Christ is sooooo misunderstood.

Yes.

God has a name that cannot be spoken

Aha! There’s the old tradition that to know the true name of someone is to have power over them. You can’t name something you can’t grasp.

That’s what I told my kids growing up. If someone tells you absolutely that they know how it is — run away, very fast. Honestly, I did. Almost word for word what you said.

Thank you Starbuck.

Peter THANK YOU SO MUCH! And firepups, thank you so much for your awesome participation!

Nexr Monday, you’ll be discussing the NFL’s treatment of players wiht the filmmakers behind Blood Equity, with a special host, since I’ll be in Ireland

Me too. One has to be very careful. If one is religious, study the book and try not to be swayed by the interpretation of other human beings.

Thanks, Peter. And Lisa.

Been fun – thank you all of you.

…and my true name isn’t Starbuck.

Or is it?

Boy, oh boy… He surely caused a ruckus in the Episcopal church! I suppose he’s the Episcopalians’ Teilhard de Chardin… (If you want some REALLY challenging reading, try him on for size.)

Oh, but your “true name” may not necessarily be the one on your birth certificate…

Kinda like politics, huh?
Kinda like everything about us humans. I gotta big bad salt I use. *g*
I observe, listen, read and then take some alone to meditate on it all.

The meaning is nice. It means “Bearer of the Laurel Wreath”.

He’s fantastic. And, he did cause a stir, didn’t he? He’s got new one out I want some one to buy me for a present. I love this stuff. I really do.

Kelly & Marion in Savannah + allusions by Starbuck point up a very good point: language is a symbol set pointing at another symbol (This is not my idea but an brought out very understandably by an interesting book called a “Course in Miracles.”). Different families of languages are able to provide a rich or sparser picture of the symbol, “God.” If we aren’t aware of these two things, quite a bit of misunderstanding between conversants can crop up right away besides the other point that there are things beyond language and symbol that we humans can merely hint at with the use of language.

Acts of faith must be recognized for what they are. They are not science and they can not be backed by fact. So let us always be sure to keep the two separate. In every way they deny one another. Science has never lost a contest of fact.
Lettuce ponder the mystery of the universe. If we someday find this god out there, we can whack him and no one will deny our right.

Thank you Lisa, Peter and all for this discussion!

Science may not have ever lost a contest of fact, but the facts change anyway.

In the scheme of things in these early days of the 21st Century a discussion like this is particularly lovely.

And love is all there is.

You are SO right. I think it was Robert Heinlein who called language a “map of reality,” or something similar. I know that after 4 years of French, when I could just about think in the language, I read a kids’ story in French that to this day I cannot fully translate into English because there are nuances of meaning in the simple story that just don’t cross over into English. No wonder we fight so over defining “God.”

Whatever we say God is, God isn’t. So, why fight?

Alas, we fight because that’s where the lizard brain takes too many folks.

LOL!

I find the Eastern notion of “compassion co-emergent with wisdom” as a great reminder and antidote for any potential outbursts of my “lizard brain.” :)

Imagine a cart wheel, with lots of spokes. The axle is God. The spokes are various religions. We scoot around the outside of the wheel, sliding down one spoke or another at various times in our lives. Understand God? Nah…

That’s a good one to take to heart.

Ooops! Meant for mzchief.

Doing cartwheels for God.

Another slogan, no?

Sufis dance, why not cartwheels?!

I saw a poster once where a fellow is crawling to the edge of the universe and lifting to curtain to look. His universe was planets, plants etc. The other side? All cartwheels.

That poster was a lightning strike to my brain. I went from temporal to…???

This has been a grand discussion. I hope that OMG will show in theaters here, but I have my doubts. (There were almost riots in the streets when a local theater tried to show “The Last Temptation of Christ,” which was, by the way, a fabulous book.) I may have to wait until it’s released on DVD so I can get it on Netflix. There are real downsides to living in the buckle of the Bible belt… Gotta go because the alarm rings at 5:30. Be well and happy.

Cartwheels are cool. When you’re 19. I haven’t attempted a physical one in years, but, with my heart and brain, I try all the time.
Just got finished doing an old lady version of Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairies to music in my living room.
I’ll work on the heartfelt mental cartwheels later. *g*
Enjoying life is part of the Love that Is God.

The Ethernal Now???

D: Remember when you were investigating courses? Still looking?

Perhaps.

Take care.

I think this is such an interesting comment too. I was thinking about how that view operates in how I try to teach kids on Sunday…..I often find myself saying “Some people believe….”

Totally late response, but I think you’re a peach, Bev!

Yeah, there’s a manipulation tactic called “Playing the Servant Role” whereby manipulators rationalize their self-serving behavior under the guise of serving a greater cause, i.e. following their own interpretations of religious doctrine.

- Tom

If you have a desire to learn even more, see to Diana Eck’s work The Pluralism Projecta well respected scholar, at Harvard. She’s one of my heroes.