[Welcome Barbara Ehrenreich, and Host Thomas Frank - bev]
Bright-sided: How the Relentless Promotion of Positive Thinking Has Undermined America
When I lived in Chicago in the Nineties, I used to listen to an AM radio station that broadcast nothing but recordings of motivational speakers all day long. The idea, as I understood it, was to provide a sort of service to the itinerant salesman, whom Barbara Ehrenreich describes as “lonely and wounded” but still required to “pick himself up and generate fresh enthusiasm for the next customer, the next city, the next rejection.” By listening to a string of these three or four minute pep talks, the city’s sales force would be able to psyche themselves up to face their next prospect.
As for the station’s content, it was pretty much unrelenting sunshine, megadoses of motivation; the main feature distinguishing the various speakers was the homemade theory or idea with which they had souped up the great American idea of positive thinking: Not just positive thinking but positive envisioning. Happy Bible verses. Tricks to make yourself seem like an optimistic person. Words whose letters actually stood for other words that, taken together, were really, really awesome.
Positive thinking is one of those things that you either embrace enthusiastically or else dismiss as a harmless form of escapism, as benign as the Top 40 songs they’re playing on the next station over and just as formulaic. After all, how can you object when someone advises you to direct your feet to the sunny side of the street?
Well, maybe it’s time we started taking it more seriously. Positive thinking inundates American culture, from megachurch to motivational seminar. As Ehrenreich makes plain in her new book, Bright-Sided, it is not merely masscult banality; it is also ideology. It rationalizes things we ought to find unacceptable; it leads us to expect improbable results and to blame ourselves—for insufficient positivity, of course—when the world somehow fails to comply with our wishes.
In certain reaches of business culture positive thinking is hegemonic, with exhortations to stamp out negativity—and to eliminate negative people—coming from bosses, management books, and so on right down to office tchotchkes.
We are accustomed to brilliance from Barbara Ehrenreich. She describes the darkness in the corners of our business civilization with such effortless genius that you come to expect it; all she has to do, you start to think, is turn on her computer and out come the polished sentences and the penetrating apercus.
But this book is special; it will hit close to home for almost everybody. Positive thinking is something we all know about, or think we know about. And its costs have been staggering. At its feet, in part, Ehrenreich lays Americans’ passivity in the face of downsizing, our acceptance of the bizarre skewing of wealth, and our almost complete failure to anticipate the disaster that was coming from the late real-estate bubble. This is a book that makes large, controversial claims about a beloved American idea.
And it does so in a way that will be hard to forget. If you don’t follow this part of American culture, many of the scenes Ehrenreich describes will be shocking: The motivation gurus selling a form of Xtreme covetousness, in which you are simply supposed to long for an object in order to “manifest,” or receive it. (“Name it and claim it.”) The dealers in motivation who found it appropriate to waterboard an employee. The preachers of a “prosperity gospel” who boast of their own high-living ways and who imagine God intervening in the minutiae of everyday life right down to securing the faithful a good seat at a crowded restaurant. The management book that includes this passage:
- Place your hand on your heart and say . . .
-
- “I admire rich people!”
-
- “I bless rich people!”
-
- “I love rich people!”
-
- “And I’m going to be one of those rich people too!”
What I suspect will be the book’s most noticed chapter describes Ehrenreich’s own experience with breast cancer, and the weirdly sunny, upbeat culture that the disease’s victims have built. The chapter is called “Smile or Die,” and in it Ehrenreich describes how, in some circles, the optimism has been taken so far that cancer is thought of as a “‘a gift,’ deserving of the most heartfelt gratitude.” (“What does not destroy you,” she writes, “. . . makes you a spunkier, more evolved sort of person.”) The problem here, as well as in the culture at large, is that in building up the power of positivity we blame those who fail—in this case, who die—for their own misfortune. They simply weren’t optimistic enough.
Uplift has consequences, and the myth of positive thinking may cost us more than we can afford.



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Barbara, Welcome to the Lake.
Thomas, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
hi all
Hi everybody. Tom Frank here. I thought I’d start things off with a political question for Barbara.
Tell us about positive thinking’s political ramifications. What does it say to us about, say, the lopsided distribution of wealth? The health care debate?
Positive thinking on a national level, i.e. U.S. exceptionalism, gets the U.S. into a lot of trouble, like the 14 overthrows of foreign govts since 1899 (Overthrow by Kinzer), all of which were disasters.
Hi Tom — What lopsided distribution of wealth? If everyone can become rich just by visualizing $, there’s no problem.
Health care debate: that’s more about paranoia I think.
Yep, very much related to American exceptionalism, idea that we are God’s chosen peeps who can do no wrong.
I’ve met countless positive thinkers in my own life, and they are, to a man, deeply negative people. They seem always to believe that national disaster is just around the corner, that the dollar is about to become worthless, and so on. What is the connection?
That’s interesting. I hadn’t noticed the connection to paranoia. Want to talk about your dad, who you told me was a big positive thinker?
Good afternoon Barbara and Thomas and welcome to FDL this afternoon.
Barbara, I have not had an opportunity to read your book but have to laugh after seeing this op-ed in today’s NY Times (Robert J. Shiller) about the economic recovery needing to be in our heads.
I couldn’t see any way to comment, but wanted to tell him, “Yeah, I guess that unemployment and lack of insurance and everything will just all go away if I just wish it to be so.”
I had a roommate in tech school who listened to Zig Ziglar and so on all the time. Do you have any idea how folks make themselves so obnoxiously upbeat all the time? It really does seem to be a total denial of anything reality based.
Welcome. I’ve seen you do several book appearances on TDS & cspan. I agree with the premise of the book wholeheartedly. I think that both excessively positive and excessively negative outlooks are equally dysfunctional.
What I mean is, positive thinking seems to be consciously chosen by people who are otherwise very negative about the world. It’s something you believe consciously to be a good idea even though you yourself are being pushed by facts or paranoia or whatever in another direction.
BTW, Barbara, you probably won’t find any excessively positive thinking at FDL. We are not happy campers with spineless Ds in charge of the govt.
Also, I haven’t read this book yet, but I listened to Nickled & Dimed recently. It was very interesting for my, a retired Wall St. macroeconomist, to get the microeconomic view.
I don’t think being positive is wholly optional in today’s workplace. Negative people– those who ask too many Q’s– are often fired or at least silenced. So people listen to Ziglar etc to whip up the pos spirit they know they’re supposed to display at work.
As I said, it’s not voluntary. You gotta get with the program or face ostracism or unemployment. Something like the USSR where pessimism was defined as “defeatism” or a form of treason.
To be honest, I always found myself more able to think positively by listening to good blues than I ever could by listening to the relentlessly upbeat folks like Ziglar.
Thank you for this wonderful book. I really am enjoying it. I also enjoyed your appearance on “The Daily Show with Jon Stewart.” I was struck, since I am reading it now, by the shame and embarrassment felt by people attending the free health fair in Little Rock yesterday: people believe their inability to afford health care is their own fault, and they are ashamed of it. America teaches us, with our relentless focus on “deservingness,” that if we deserve health care, or financial security, or romantic happiness, we will be blessed with it.
But that’s not how it works in a system so badly stacked against the little guy. It’s almost as if these positive-thinking gurus are dispatched from their towers within Richistan to convince us that we are unworthy because we think wrongly, not that we do without because other richer Americans steal our commons.
Optimism is one thing, but it isn’t uniquely America. Ms Ehrenreich, I wonder if you think hyper-optimism, and the fleecing of Americans taught to believe in it, is.
(great intro, thanks Mr Frank)
I was let go from a job shortly after my father died for not being upbeat enough.
Me too. The blues can be beautiful. One thing you will never find in a pos thinking book is any kind of beauty or even slightest concession to good writing. Which is why I got really bummed out doing all the reading for Bright-sided.
I used to work at a hospital and recently, one of the employees told me that they’ve all been instructed to be “upbeat and happy” all the time, that from here on there is no such thing as “a bad day.” I talked to a unit clerk who said she was downgraded in her performance evaluation for her facial expression. “What expression? That’s just my face, I can’t help it!”
Walk on the sunny side, always on the sunny side…
That’s awful, Teddy, but I keep hearing similar stories. The bereaved are supposed to bounce back in a week. I think we have a real compassion deficit in this country — we just can’t stand being exposed to other people’s suffering (or “whining” as it’s usually called.)
A lot of the “Japanese management” companies demand enthusiasm of their employees. People in sales have to be optimistic and upbeat in order to work. So does anyone in PR or promotion or representing a company. And most of the media are controlled by advertising salesmen. Feelgood sells.
And there’s a tremendous market niche for anyone who can convince unsuccessful, unhappy, depressed people that they have the secret of success and happiness. You don’t have to make them happy, you just have to make them feel good long enough to tell their friends. Or get sponsored by a feelgood company.
Women especially get this kind of thing. Ever since I’ve been about 13, I’ve had random guys asking me to give them a “little smile.” It used to enrage me.
Perfect example of what T. Partridge is referring to: Who Moved My Cheese? My all-time favorite management book–by which I mean, the book itself is a form of management, advising us to adapt to changing circumstances and stop complaining, or else get lost. It’s the horror of optimism. Barbara goes into some detail on the book in Bright Sided. Tell the FDL readers what it’s about, Barbara.
Isn’t unjustified optimism, the power of positive thinking, what have you, just the exploitation of an evolutionary trait? Suppose doing X is good for the group but any one individual attempting X has only one chance in ten of succeeding, with a 90% chance of death otherwise. Now, that’s very bad for the individual, but if eight individuals in the group believe in the power of positive thinking, then the odds of success rise to better than fifty-fifty.
aaagh. all my life. “smile!” the male strangers ordered as i passed by.
Another fascinating aspect to all this is the religious one–the “prosperity Gospel.” Reading about this, it just seems like Elmer Gantry minus the pretense. It’s religion as con game in a particularly bald and assertive form. How do they get away with it?
Humans can only handle so much reality.
Thanks for being here Thomas and Barbara!
Barbara will be right back
Barbara,
This is a “hit-and-run” comment, but I do hope to see a response when I return later tonight. Your books “Nickel and Dimed” and “Fear of Falling” opened my eyes to an American underbelly that I did not appreciate before. I am a university professor of history, and I reference them often in my U.S. survey courses. Now, I wonder, how do you see your thesis in “Fear” viz. the current economic climate? Dare we call it prophecy?
Warmest,
Kevin Motl
Of course, back in the bad old days, being deluded into sacrificing for the group carried with it the benefit that your kin (and thus your genes) would survive. It strikes me that working for the modern business entity carries no such benefit. In fact, it’s – there’s not better word for it – parasitic. Forcing someone to be optimistic as a workplace requirement seems to be like those worms that get inside an ant and convince it to climb to the top of a stalk of grass and thrash around to attract the attention of predators. Good for the worm, I suppose. But very bad for the ant, and in a way that does not benefit it’s kin.
“Humankind cannot bear very much reality” T.S. Eliot
Well, I thought I was doing pretty well at “compartmentalization” as we are encouraged to do with anything remotely downbeat in the American workplace. But since things were serously awry in the enterprise at the time, and I was not hesitant to point that out, management was able to link my deserved complaints about their directives with my loss. I was complaining about them, in their view, because I was grieving. Perhaps — perhaps — I could have presented my complaints more diplomatically.
They were monsters and I am much better away from them. At the time, though, it was horrifying: my dad just died and now you’re firing me?
I want to know what all these happy people (including the love-the-rich management) think of union organizing?
tenant organizing?
I think there’s much more than positive thinking to that command from random men, though: it’s a sexual gambit. Haven’t you found that smiling doesn’t exactly end the interaction? Once engaged they expect more, don’t they?
As I understand it(and my knowledge may be out of date), don’t Japanese companies have a business model where employees have their jobs for life, as what used to be the case in the U.S.? It strikes me that if this is the case, both sides are getting something in the bargain.
All of it amounts to associating with a class of people you are soon to transcend. And possibly, should everything go your way, employ or house. So I can’t imagine the optimism gospel has much truck with organizing horizontally in any way; upwards is the preferred trajectory.
I also wonder how much this happy face stuff is linked to the predominate go-along-to-get-along culture?
I work for regulatory local govt, and all the way the chain and down, there is this suck-up-to-the-next-guy-up. Those who are marginalized are those who aren’t yes men/women. The only thing holding anyone back at all is the risk of litigation! and even the lawyers are rolling over! Gee, I remember a time when a govt employee did the right thing because he/she worked for the People! Is that ever over and how!
My own impression is that unions are one of the great villains of positive thinking, because their solutions proceed directly from the most negative thinking of all–that you can’t “make it” on your own, that the system needs to be revised, that you aren’t to blame for not getting rich.
Because it’s always just a matter of time before the lottery win/business idea that will make a millionaire/etc.
“The Century of the Self” is an excellent 4 hour documentary detailing the origins and evolution of public relations, and how our corporations turned us into greedy, materialistic, and mindless consumers.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8953172273825999151&ei=tbwJS5f1AceclAe469C2Dg&q=century+of+the+self+episode+1#
Please check out the first 5 minutes, you’ll be hooked!
Freud’s nephew Edward Burnays employed his uncle’s theories of subconscious desires, and made a fortune in advertising.
It’s fascinating how the hippy movement led directly to the election of Ronald Regan.
Adali Stevenson, on comments by Norman Vincent Peale, author of The Power of Positive Thinking, that a potential JFK presidency would take orders from The Vatican:
Source here.
Yeah, I remember when the “happy-type” suck ups were called stoolies or scabs. Times have changed.
Hope I’m back this time. Computer problems, but I’m visualizing success!
I should also point out that Barbara’s book has some magnificent chapters on religious history–on how Calvinism, formerly the hegemonic American religion, was supplanted by positive thinking, which seemed to correct Calvinism’s Xtreme dourness and pessimism. The weird thing is how positive thinking has also reaffirmed important elements of Calvinism–the need to work incessantly, the idea that only you are to blame if you fail.
Then it’s fixed, I’m sure.;))
The GOP does seem to think that we all want to be like them and if we had money and power we would be as amoral and as greedy as they are. I think they don’t get that our save the planet, get everyone Healthcare thing comes out of a concern for others.
As well as a concern for our selves only Sociopaths put themselves above the herd all the time. The Herd is now trying to kick them out. Some self interest is good but all the time no.
Ha,seems to be working. Who needs unions when all your problems are fixable by changing your attitude? Collective action of any kind is ruled out.
Thanks.I had never heard the source for that quote. I am trying to imagine the Former Prez W saying something so erudite.
I was trying to say earlier that evolution favored a high level of vigilance, not mindless optimism.
Exactly! Social organizing, whether by tenants or workers or women or LGBTs, is a long-term effort that only pays off after hard work and dedication, solidarity, and setbacks. None of that plays into the faux-individualism, prosperity gospel, and visualization culture. Visualizing the Employee Free Choice Act passing didn’t make it so. Only electing more ‘critters committed to its passage will.
Micki McGee makes this point in her book on self-help: It’s a matter of endlessly working on yourself, trying to crush those negative thoughts.
Cause somedays there is no sun?
And the correlary that the wealthy deserve it and are by definition God’s Chosen ones.
FunnyWheelieDiva
What the pos thinking gurus don’t get — and all the pos psychologists in “happiness studies” — is that there is great satisfaction and joy in working with others to overcome common problems. Solidarity is a high!
Doesn’t this then start to hit the “pre-destination” folks who believe that no matter what they do, they go to heaven because of who they are?
That seems to be replacing the dourness of Calvinism with an upbeat religious view that nothing can be blamed on the person just because.
No, there are only days when you refuse to see the sunshine.
Thank you Ehrenreich for your many contributions. One of your writings spoke of the passe notion that the God thing is a benevolent, just, being. Like “fair” in our world, benevolence and justice are mere constructions.
Well, in the prosperity gospel of preachers like Joel Osteen, wealth and sucess are marks of God’s favor.
I love your abbreviation for them: “pos thinking,” since pos is an acronym for piece of shit.
Why, then, was Jesus so into poor people? I’ve never understood how they square their Xtian gospel with Christ’s “actual” behavior.
Ayye; “Sometimes the light’s all shining on me, other times I can barely see” (GD)
I’m not surprised.
Just pointing out that this goes waaaay back to the Calvinism of our earliest founding…
FWDvia
On the mark, Teddy. No instant pay off for organizing! I guess the good side of organizing is that when it is built “brick-by-brick, person-by-person” eventually a force is born that is solid i.e., Solidarnosc!
Thanks for bringing up God. I haven’t read Robert Wright’s new book on the Evolution of God yet, but I don’t think agree with his proposition that historically God became moral as human civilization evolved. The idea of a moral God is a big mistake.
What is the connection between positive thinking and selfishness? Or the connection between positive thinking and community, or lack there of?
Self-absorbed individuality and consumerism rose seem to have risen at the same time as positive thinking. Are strong communities an anecdote to positive thinking syndrome?
Perhaps not, but I’m curious.
That takes too much energy. We treat ourselves worse than we treat our good knives and cutting boards, I sometimes think. Jeez.
No kidding.
But, no worries, as soon as they finish re-writing the Bible to better conform to Conservative ideology…
FWDiva
(i don’t respond. i ignore the guy and his “order” completely and keep on walking.)
Jesus plays almost no part in the pos-thinking prosperity gospel, except as an agent of wish-fulfillment. Most megachurches display no crosses or images of him.
Barbara, what do you think the chance that this “great recession” will knock out a good portion of this happy stuff? If so, how do you see that transition happening?
In my experience, very few self-proclaimed Christians have read the bible. What did you find in Kansas, Tom?
Oh, and I failed to mention the other obvious explanation…
A huge amount of “christian” doctrine is more accurately described as “Pauline”…
FWDiva
I’m trying! Right now, coming off a book tour, I’m feeling — dare I say?– pretty positive about a backlash against pos thinking.
“there is great satisfaction and joy in working with others to overcome common problems. Solidarity is a high!”
The Power of Positive Doing.
Barbara, write that (self-help) book and I’ll watch you on Oprah!
..among the backlashers: people who have been through cancer or other major diseases and got sick of being told to just be positive about it.
The GOP also has this idea that Man is born bad and trying to help people is a waste of time. Can you explain the Cognitive Dissonance?
I kind of did write that book. It’s called Dancing in the Streets: A History of Collective Joy (2006.)
Speaking of selfishness, is there any link between the pos thinking gospel and Objectivism, Ayn Rand’s hokum? Seems to me there’s a natural potential link-up there; I wonder if it ever happened.
I’ll check it out:)
The idea that we are born bad is the old Calvinism (and Catholicism.) That’s from the old days before sin was replaced by “negativity.”
And now the big question: So much of this stuff–maybe all of it–is false, fraudulent, a hoax. Preachers telling us to donate to them and God will compensate us five-fold. (Maybe twenty-fold. Why not?) An entire industry of motivational speakers feeding us something that is obviously false, a self-interested fable generated by management. So why, oh why do debunking books like this come along so rarely?
Which is different from trying to keep someone’s spirits up, right? There’s gotta be a middle place somewhere…
FWDiva
Teddy, have you ever seen “The Century of the Self”?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8953172273825999151&ei=tbwJS5f1AceclAe469C2Dg&q=century+of+the+self+episode+1#
Fairly OT, I guess….I wonder how any of this relates to Christmas….The cultural “high”, season of joy,that many people hate/have bad memories, etc. Talk about mandatory “be Happy.”
Hi Barbara, Thanks for all that YOU do!
Seriously tho, the hypocrisy of the feel gooders is astounding. Someone already mentioned American exceptionalism, and our consumerist creed plays out while the world lurches into climatic chaos. But you pile on enough pharma anti-depressants, and mindless entertainment and you have a nice recipe for suicidal endgames when the future does not become what one wanted it to. (So much for doing all the things one is supposed to do.)
I understand that American culture has always loved it’s snake oil salesmen but enough is enough. Why aren’t Americans realistic? Are we so easily led (or fooled) by PT Barnums and the cheerleaders?
And those smiley faces have always given me the creeps.
Hey folks, turn that frown upside down. I am a big believer in positive thinking. I am positive that the healthcare bill is going to suck, that 2011 will see fullblown depression, that Obama is doing everything in his power to be a one-termer, and that our elites are totally and absolutely bankrupt. I don’t see what the problem is with this positive thinking thing. Works for me.
Haven’t read Ayn Rand since I was 17, but I think she’d be disgusted by the kitschy=ness of pos thinking.
Because people want/need to believe that they can influence a random and overwhelmingly unjust world?
FWDiva
The pos thinkers have a real language issue when they come to preach their gospel to a support group of newly HIV+ people, I can tell you that. “But we ARE positive,” they usually yell back with the sarcasm of the newly doomed. “That’s why we’re here!”
Maybe because you are made to feel like a buzz-kill for going against the flow here. I know the concept originally made my very brilliant editor a little nervous.
They’ve usually read the Bible, even memorized huge chunks of it. But the quoting is always selective, like the way we used to read favorite cards in high school debate. The other rules of reading–taking into account context, historicity, etc.–are usually missing.
Well, we CAN change an unjust world,only not by magical thiking.
“So why, oh why do debunking books like this come along so rarely?”
Sounds like somebody needs some Prozac!
I think this “Great Recession” we’re in could be the best thing possible for
Regular America’s soul.
I’m starting to think that the post-war economic boom was among the worst things that could have happened to America.
What could be better than Depression era values of eating everything on your plate, and only buying what you need and what serves a practical purpose?
Maybe they just don’t read the Book of Matthew. Though I’ve heard remarkable rationalizations of why you can keep all your money while others are hungry.
But these guys are also the Happy Pill squad how do they explain the differences?
Ah, of course. Maybe I should have modified that somehow…
Magical Thinking isn’t as much work as actually getting together with and helping your fellow people?
FWDiva
Barbara: Such a pleasure to see you here! My focus is on right wing radio and TV. I’ve been responsible for programs that have cost them millions in revenue and lost advertisers.
When Thomas was listing to Zig Zigler I was listing to crazy haters like Savage and trying to figure out how to hurt them financially. Many rightwing radio hosts focus on governments bad free market business good. They don’t talk about good of government or the failure of the concept of the free market.
They tie their love of Reagan to his optimism. (While they have an incorrect understanding of what he really did–he raised taxes 7 out of 8 years according to Will Bunch’s book on Reagan)
Do you have a sense of why the Reagan optimism cult remains so powerful for them?
But the Depression saw some crazy pos thinking too, as in the bestseller Think and Grow Rich, a forerunner of “The Secret.”
Barbara, thank you for your work and your advocacy for those in greatest need – and Thomas, thanks also for your work and efforts. I’m grateful to both of you for taking the time to be here, and enduring grateful to Bev for making these Salons happen.
Though I confess I’ve yet to read Bright-sided, I’m also very grateful to you Barabara for outing the tyranny of positive thinking. When I worked as a psych consultant for oncology services in a huge academic med center, I was appalled to find that – in addition to grappling with the burden of cancer – so many patients were guilty and remorseful because they were convinced their “negative thinking” had *caused* their cancer.
I was even more appalled by the fact that my patients were blaming themselves for “causing” cancers which (adjusting for other causes of mortality) were vanishingly rare befor widespread use of synthetic chemicals (esp pesticides).
My day calling is being a doc: eco-activism’s my other calling. Though it wasn’t my place to tell the patients berating themselves for not being sunny enough to keep their cancers at bay, the power of positive thinking I saw was to falsely implicate the victims of the deliberate mass poisoning called “pollution” as somehow complicit in their own demise.
Not so incidentally, that result disempowered the patients in that it precluded any systemic conceptualization of their plight. When one’s convinced one’s caused one’s cancer by not smiling enough, why blame mass industrial poisoning of land, air, food, and water?
And why risk collective political action about something really awful – and something scary and terrifiying – when you believe that to survive, you must never break your smile?
If Norman Vincent Peale hadn’t come along, pesticide pushers like Dow and Monsanto would had to have invented him. Thanks for putting a pin in the positive thinking windbags. Hope it pops their balloons and fatally wounds the megacorps hiding behind them.
Anyway, a shrink can dream….
“A campaign worker for President Bush said on Thursday American workers unhappy with low-quality jobs should find new ones — or pop a Prozac to make themselves feel better.”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104×2115246
“I positively think that I don’t have to follow the teaching of Christ. I can be unfaithful to my wife and, for that matter, my country. God understands me and has given me permission to not follow the rules. I positively believe this.”
“C” Streeter
Well, it turned into the G.W. Bush optimism cult — cakewalk in Iraq, fundamentally sound economy, etc. Even Obama had to run on “hope.”
Much thanks again to Barbara and Thomas.
In fact, the Depression was positive thinking’s golden age. In some ways, even FDR seemed to embrace it.
So this guy told me that it takes more muscles to frown than to smile.
I looked at him and say, “So, who’s the lazy one?”
I told that joke in my CBT depression group. Didn’t go over too well. Tough crowd, tough crowd.
But the president who really took it to extremes was Ronald Reagan. Shouldn’t he be in the pantheon of positive thinkers, Barbara?
Yes I always though the movement from cancer being caused by environmental toxins to the idea that there was something ‘wrong’ with your genes or that cancer was caused by negative life or thought patterns was bizarre, although I think Wilhelm Reich was postulating that as a metaphor.
It gets worse, Kirk. You’re supposed to embrace your cancer as a “gift” — “the best thing that ever happened to me” as Lance Armstrong and others have said. So we actually need more pollution!
Check out “The Positive Thinkers” by Donald Meyer. It’s an old book, but terrific, and he traces the line from the 19th c to Reagan.
“Well, there you go again.”
In the 70′s I was a teenager, growing up on welfare in decaying industrial Holyoke MA in an environment with a lot a blue collar high school drop out nam draftees – ‘wish in 1 hand, shit in the other, and see which one filled up first’ was how a lot of people around me coped. When I moved to Boston to attend BC when I was 18 in ’78 … it took me till I was 22 or 25 before I started to figure out advantages to fitting in with the phoney more affluent incessantly upbeats, and HOW to fit in their incessantly happy happy phoney bullshit –
In my 30 odd years of doing sundry political things in Boston, or Seattle when I moved out here in ’89, being around the happy happys is part of political “reality”.
I’ve been wondering the last few years about how we the Dims keep getting Stu-Pid-Paked decade after decade, and I’ve REALLY felt in these years that the incessant getting Stu-Pid-Pak-ed is due, in part, to the culture of the professional / manager cla$$ of the upper income group$ who heavily influence the party and … who can’t handle reality?
Sure we all want the world to NOT run according to the rules of The Prince or 1984, we all want Sesame Street and Barney and Mr. Rodgers and IF we want the world to be nice, we have to be nice.
BUT, just cuz we’re nice doesn’t mean the world will be nice, and it sure as hell seems to me that those most able to weather the slings and arrows are those with more re$ource$ – it i$ ea$y to be happy happy nicey nice when the bill$ are paid.
People living in happy happy nicey nice world do NOT hire the hardball mean sons of bitches who gotta be employed to beat school yard bullies like Rove, Atewater and Ailes.
Look how the media describes the whackball DC sniper, deservedly, as angry. I’m a high school math teacher now, instead of cooking on fishing boats in alaska like I did 18 years ago, or working in software as I did 10 years ago. In professional / educational circles the phrases “angry” or “negative” or “bitter” are applied QUICKLY to undercut someone pointing out that … the king has no clothes. Don’t be the Painter in Timon of Athens!
‘To promise is most courtly and fashionable:
performance is a kind of will or testament
which argues a great sickness
in his judgment that makes it.’
rmm.
Isn’t W’s new gig to do motivational speaking? He’s such a role model….the grinning chimp, but he needs mind altering substance
to keep the phony sneer on his face.
True, Tom, in fact FDR was a fan of Napoleon Hill, author of the delusional “Think and Grow Rich.” I’ve always thought we had a lot more to fear than fear itself.
just.shoot.me.
My goddess, I had no idea: that is so evil I’m reeling. The Jesus I know sure doesn’t think a 19 year-old’s hemipelvectomy is a “gift”.
Barbabra on your book tour did any radio or TV station set up a debate between you and a motivational speaker or a person with a positive thinking book?
“In fact, the Depression was positive thinking’s golden age.”
Very interesting. So what argument could be made against that Depression Era pos thinking? What could the people have accomplished without so much of it?
The Christian prosperity gospel has transformed the keys to the kingdom of heaven into the keys to a new McMansion and Benz.
God is the Great Ready Teller Machine in the Sky ready to respond as soon as you fill the collection plate.
And you gatta love the Wall Street banksta connection. People with bad credit were told by their prosperity preachers that if they only had faith, God would reward them. So, they walked into their local lenders and voila!– they walked out with a negatively amortized loan, only to discover that their dream home had morphed into a debtor’s prison.
Welcome to the new age.
Thanks, seabos. I don’t think we can just “be the change we want in the world,” we have to make the change we want in the world. Which involves collective effort of course.
I think we have to be careful to distinguish between Ronald Reagan and “Ronald Reagan.” The sunny disposition, morning-in-America fellow the right worships actually had some seriously dark views about endtimes and armageddon, and his own potential role in it.
For all the revisionist history about Reagan’s on-air pre-address radio “joke” about ending the Soviet Union as we know it, he had strong, wacky religious views about the world ending. On his watch.
Today’s pos psychologists grade cancer patients on their “benefit finding” — how much they say they are benefiting from cancer. It’s beyond disgusting.
Maybe the people might have risen up against the Federal Reserve in the ’30′s without so much positive thinking. Even Milton Freidman admitted that the Fed caused the Great Depression.
Maybe today we could more effectively protest the Fed without the burden of our neighbors’ and relatives’ pos thinking.
Which brings us back to the point Tom was making earlier, about the paranoid side of pos thinking. But didn’t Reagan kind of look forwward to Armageddon, just as good Christians anticipated the rapture?
aint nuthin’ positive about missing so much of this fabulous thread – damn!
Thomas Frank and Barbara Ehrenreich – Welcome ! and thank you both for spending time with us here today
Yeah, the same mega church types that listen to Joel Olsteen also listen to Ted Hagee.
So is your critique of positive thinking that it substitutes having a good attitude with having a good plan? Or to use language from another decade, that it is a cop-out?
One of the most powerful pieces I read of Barbara’s was about how the Christian churches support their members in their poverty. This was a huge eye opener to me because if I wanted to get a friend out of her church I realized that I had to also provide her with some of the economic benefits she was getting from that church. My church couldn’t provide those same benefits.
I think the key is that they and FDR didn’t rely solely on pos thinking/optimism/what have you.
New Deal programs like the CCC and WPA put a lot of actual money behind the happy talk.
FWDiva
I did debate a couple of guys once on npr. One of them was all about “vibrations” and harmony with the universe. The other was a pos psychologist who argued that there is empirical evidence that pos thinking promotes health and longevity. I take that evidence on in the book.
Which is why I think the faith-based initiatives crap is so insidious.
The gov really should be making sure everyone has access to such basics, regardless of church affiliation or lack thereof!
FWDiva
That is foul. How can any physician allow a patient within a mile of that kind of thinking? It’s just awful.
Megachurches provide a huge variety of social services — eg, childcare, support groups for people going thru divorce, networking groups for job seekers. Hamas also provides social services to its folks.
But I suspect it makes for very compliant patients.
Always with them negative waves Moriarity
Edit: as a bit from a movie it’s funny. Not so much in reality.
… for example — why would so many people (myself included) put up with the devastating effects of chemotherapy if not soothed by the inescapable pos thinking and brightsiding of cancer?
So, without giving away the end of your book for those of us still in the midst, how exactly do you think our culture can cure itself of this ill? Collective social activism seems like an antidote, and a liberal’s belief in governmental solutions seems like an alternative, but how shall the current adherents be reached?
What of all those people awaiting their benefits from The Secret? Can they be lured away into a more realistic approach to improving things together, for all of us? Or are they hooked on selfishness and potential prosperity?
I think I need a stat anti-emetic.
The Fawzy et al study that purported to show therapy improved outocmes (survival, IIRC) in cancer patients was crap: one of the residents on the study, Elizabeth Targ, earned Fawzy’s lasting emnity when she attempted to make this known.
Cognitive therapy can be very effective: for anxiety disorders it’s often as effective as meds.
Cognitive therapy’s power derives from the fact it provides factual premises and data which displace inaccurate conclusions (cognitions) skewed by intense affective states…like fear.
What you describe iinverts cognitive therapy. To define the absence of powerful uncomfortable affective states in response to real prospects of disfigurment, pain, and death is to reject our basic neurobiology: we’re hard-wired to feel like crap when we think we’re gonna croak!
The “pos psychologists” pervert the basic facts of our biology. Truly appalling.
I’m looking forward to buying and reading your book. I’m grateful you’ve opened the lid on a truly depraved ideological inversion of the ehaling arts.
I would venture that way more time is spent watching all sorts of sports events than going to church…lots of Vicarious success and violence, all really feel good stuff and more adictive
Barbara, Tom brought up the infamous book Who Moved My Cheese? and he tells us that you rip that sucker to shreds in your book. Please tell us more — my husband’s management bought into that book whole hog and is making everyone’s lives hell as a result!
One thing that I wish more people in the media understood was how the Bush administration lied about things in an effort to cover up the horrible truth of things like the cost of the war, the number of civilian dead, the cost of Medicare part D and other lies. When you remove the group that counts mass lay offs at big companies things don’t seem so bad.
Someone above mentioned the taking on of self blaming for cancer. I see this in the jobs world too. Here in the Bay Area the sense that the individual is to blame for their lack of employment is pretty rampant. If you were smart enough or good enough the believe goes that there will be a place for you. That view wins instead of the “we are all being screwed, let’s stick together and demand we not be screwed”.
I know tons of people who have been limping along since the dot com crash and have never recovered (myself included).
Edited to insert missing words. D’oh!
with the added side benefit that the docs aren’t under as much scrutiny from those patients…
FWDiva
Yes, it also substitutes a performance of happiness for genuine and spontaneous human interactions. It’s a lonely business.
Orac should be here for this. He can’t stand the woo-meisters who pitch this. (But of course it’s cheaper than is actual medical treatment, so the insurance companies will fund it.)
The problem is that this is not what most media folk are paid to do.
because there are other reasons besides pos thinking to put up with those effects?
IOW, because you did your own personal “cost-benefit analysis” and decided the alternative was worse?
Hope and pos/magical thinking aren’t necessarily the same thing, right?
FWDiva
“but how shall the current adherents be reached?”
Our leaders and media are on it.
I replied about My Cheese when the computer was acting stupid. It’s about these 2 little tiny people who live in a maze with 2 mice. When one day their cheese supply disappears, the 2 peeps get very upset about the “injustice” of it, while the mice just scamper off to find a new cheese source. Message: Be more like rodents!
Another weird positive-thinking perversion: the waterboarding incident. Per Barbara’s book, it happened as part of a motivational exercise at–of course!–a company that deals in business motivation! But how on earth was this rationalized, Barbara?
I was too foggy to do the cost/benefit analysis, too eager to please my family. According to Susan Love MD, the benefits were probably almost nonexistent in my case. But the oncologist made $.
She can’t tell you, it’s a secret.
I don’t know if the suit by the employee who was waterboarded has been resolved yet, and the company wasn’t saying anything. This is not the only case of corporate sadism in the name of “motivation.” I also mention that spanked its salespeople when their numbers fell below expectations.
I’m a bankruptcy lawyer, with a small debtor practice, mostly middle class people in trouble. I spend a lot of time with my clients trying to help them see the forces around them that led to their problems. I rarely see anyone who has done something purposeful to get themselves in financial trouble.
On the other side, lawyers spend a lot of time trying to figure out what might go wrong, and planning for it, either to forestall the problem, or to minimize its effects. It doesn’t help to be an optimist. Smart people try to hire pessimistic lawyers. I stumbled into the perfect career for me.
Did they use a spanking machine?
“The Secret” just packaged the “law of attraction” as pushed by the motivational speakers– that you can have anything you want just by visualzing and “manifesting” it.
Bless you. Green Apple Books will be my first stop (after the vet) on Monday.
Ha! I responded the same way. I’ve allowed myself to correct my stress by calling over the closest fellow, and telling him that the first person needed to see someone smile, so would he be so kind…
I hate command performance in the workplace.
Interesting. Atul Gawande once wrote an op ed, which I quote, on how doctors have to be negative thinkers. And journalists have to be critical thinkers, which is the antithesis of pos thinking.
Hmmm.
Although I was kind of including “pleasing (one’s) family” as part of that analysis. IOW, emotional factors go into one’s personal cost/benefit analysis…
Be that as it may…I’m glad you’re still here for your family and to share your insights with the wider world.
You don’t have to be a pos thinker to build something good out of adversity.
FWDiva
I’ve been running into a lot of people who have been criticized at work for having a “negative attitude.” They fail to understand that one’s real job is just to flatter and please the boss.
Nothing good came from the cancer. I am not more spiritual or more evolved than I was before, as promised by so many books and websites. Maybe I’m even meaner.
And scientists…and engineers…and, and…
So, sounds like pos thinking is a fuel for the anti-science, anti-intellectual know-nothing-ism of “real” America…
FWDiva
Oh crap! All this time I’ve been visualizing and manifesting BAD things in the world, and its been working. My bad folks.
But seriously, I know just how attractive that thinking is, especially for someone who suffers from depression. And when it doesn’t work? Well, you didn’t do it right! Kind of like that old saw, “God answers all prayers, only sometimes the answer is No.”
Character builds in all directions. Perhaps, if being mean to idiots is your nature, your nature can be said to have been improved.
Truman Capote and I are more fond of: “More tears are shed over answered prayers than unanswered ones.”
I’m not advocating negative thinking as an alternative. It’s just as delusional to imagine that everything is going to turn out badly. Can we try to see the world not totally colored by our wishes or our fears?
How about just the facts, and skip the smileys…
Oh, yeah, that fundy thinking worked just fine for me…until the middle of undergrad when real life encroached.
As someone prone to depression, I can understand trying to not be mired in 100% negativity, but the kind of pos thinking we’re discussing? No workie for me.
FWDiva
If folks are drifting off, I’m going to get something to eat — it’s dinner time here. Thanks all for participating with so many smart, challenging comments! And thanks especially to Tom Frank, of whom I am a fan as well as a friend!
Maybe the Reagan thing (and imitation Bush thing) was to fear monger, and lead the “children” to trust Daddy would keep them safe! Versus Jimmy Carter who tried to treat us like adults: we can’t continue to consume at the post war rate, we must conserve energy, our lifestyle is not limitless, but we can face the truth.” Says a lot that all those folks fell for the shining city on a hill promised by the republicans, you can have it all, honey.
Well that sucks, maybe you should ask for your money back. “Excuse me, but your premise is flawed and your book didn’t work.” POS thinking book author “Bite me!”
Barbara “Nah, I’ll just write a book about what a charlatan you are and how your theories are messing up America”
POS Book author: Go ahead, manifest away!
(BTW, Charlatan by Pope Brock IS a great book.)
Yes, of course!
But that means seeing some pretty damn dark shades of gray, and that’s just too ugly. And too much work to try to clean up the ugliness (/snark).
FWDiva
exactly. perfect ending.
Thanks for being here! Great discussion.
Best,
FunnyWheelieDiva
As we come to the end of this great Book Salon,
Barbara, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spend the afternoon with us discussing your new book.
Thomas, Thank you very much for Hosting this great Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t bought Barbara’s great book, here is a link.
Thanks all.
That book and the training flowing from it has been used at hubby’s workplace to justify refusal to hire more people or ask for bigger budgets. Instead of saying “we can’t because the higher-ups hate our part of the company” (the honest answer) they pull the Who Moved My Cheese? bullshit.
Thanks for stopping by, Barbara! Have a good dinner.
Is positive thinking just a tool developed by the ruling class to make us blissfully embrace our own enslavement?
I took Tal Ben Shahar’s Positive Psychology class at Harvard – the “How to be happy” one. Got a lot out of it, but I have been intrigued about how the message given to that audience was much more balanced and realistic than the one that comes out of the media outlets, books, and such. A great deal of the focus was on exercise, getting proper sleep, eating nutritiously, and building close relationships. All of the tips (gratitude diaries, meditation, etc.) were given with the proviso to try them for a month or two, but if they didn’t stop feeling corny, don’t worry. There was also an explicit warning that if you felt depressed and the positive psychology exercises didn’t help, to see a therapist to find out if more serious treatment was needed. (In my case, I decided it was.) And there was some recognition that dialing back your life expectations in order to achieve greater happiness might involve some sacrifice.
I’ve gotten help from the positive psychology movement, but I agree totally with you that it has all gotten out of hand. My husband asked for time off to go visit his father, who had just been diagnosed with cancer, and he could take the time, but while he was away, he should do some rethinking of his dedication to the job. He did – and quit!
It really isn’t a surprise that Marty Seligman, one of the “fathers” of positive psychology, has been implicated in helping to create the US torture regime. Positive psychology may have some benefit, but the reverse engineering of it has created a nightmare for us all.
Barbara, thanks for your work!
Thanks also to you, Thomas, and Bev for taking time out of your weekend(s) to make this discussion possible: you all learned me.
I’m inclined to think that Positive Thinking as a mass movement is a form of mind control.
Aldous Huxley, author of “Brave New World” (Interview starts 20 seconds in):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txv1WPuBeWQ
Thanks to all for a wonderful Book Salon. Buy this book! It will change your life! *g*
No, really, you should buy this book.
“A really efficient totalitarian state would be one in which the all-powerful executive of political bosses and their army of managers control a population of slaves who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude. To make them love it is the task assigned, in present-day totalitarian states, to ministries of propaganda, newspaper editors and schoolteachers.”
-Aldous Huxley
“All that is needed is money and a candidate who can be coached to look sincere; political principles and plans for specific action have come to lose most of their importance. The personality of the candidate, the way he is projected by the advertising experts, are the things that really matter.”
-Aldous Huxley
With a smile, I hope.
Oops, posted to wrong place.
A final late comment. Europeans sometimes refer to Americans as “grinning idiots.”
I recently returned for a visit to my old hometown in central Calif, which I detest, and was soon struck by all the beseeching, wide-eyed, plastic smiles that invariably blared from beneath a veneer of thick makeup. Delusional and phony are the words that come to mind. Glad I’m back home.
I’m so glad that you have all come around to agreeing with me.
-Holden Caulfield
Masaccchio, I doubt you’ll come back to this thread, but what do you mean by” I rarely see anyone who has done something purposeful to get themselves in trouble.”? Do you mean that people don’t intend to get themselves in financial trouble? On purpose? I mean, of course they don’t. Only someone supremely self-destructive would TRY to run his life into a ditch. Or do you mean that people just don’t really understand that external forces (the economy, unjust healthcare policies etc.) are what is causing their misery? If you are saying that people don’t often cause their own financial problems . . .well I would have to disagee with that!