[Welcome David Owen, and Host Catherine Tumber - bev]
Green Metropolis: Why Living Smaller, Living Closer, and Driving Less are the Keys to Sustainability
With Green Metropolis, New Yorker staff writer David Owen roughs up the American environmental movement’s most sacred cows (including the grass-fed ones). The book expands on a 2004 article Owen wrote for the New Yorker, called “Green Manhattan,” and in the longer work New York City remains his frame of reference.
Eco-friendly suburbanites and small-town residents are only kidding themselves, he argues, as long as they live in sparsely settled, spaciously appointed, auto-dependent communities. If they really want to reduce their carbon footprint in any significant way, they should live in densely-settled, pedestrian-friendly, public-transit-oriented cities like New York.
Likewise, Owen urges cities (including New York) to build on their biggest low-carbon asset—their high population density—and stop placing so much store in green buildings, urban agriculture, and the expansion of city parkland. He even looks askance at New York’s Central Park for taking up too much space that could be given over to intensive urban dwelling. In the process, he skewers the environmental movement’s longstanding hostility to cities and love affair with “nature,” dating back to Thoreau, Sierra Club founder John Muir, and the ’70s back-to-the-land movement.
And in what are, perhaps, the most painstakingly researched sections of the book, he casts a cool appraising eye across the spectrum of green-tech fixes under development, from residential solar panels and LEED-certified buildings to “net-metering,” deconcentrated “distributed” electricity generation, ethanol production, and electric cars. “Nature-conservancy brain” and “LEED brain,” as he calls these environmentalist fixations, are too often driven by PR and do little more than distract from the more difficult task at hand: how to get Americans to kick the car habit and live together more closely, in smaller spaces.
Owen reminds us that New Yorkers are environmentalists without even having to think about it, because they already live this way. “In urban planning in particular,” he says, “the best, most enduringly fruitful concepts have usually arisen accidentally, and have endured not because anyone was wise enough to identify and preserve them but because they serendipitously developed what was, in effect, a life of their own and were therefore able to withstand the best intentions of potential destroyers, including urban planners themselves.” (p. 315) All the best planning in the world, he argues, will not achieve what only rising fuel costs can bring about, since the other incentive to concentrate population and refine public transit—a federal gas tax—is politically infeasible.
Arguing that Gotham should be a model for other cities concerned about reducing their carbon footprints, certainly packs rhetorical heat. But I wonder how helpful it is for cities with entirely different economic histories and land-use legacies, not to mention cities of much smaller scale (think Peoria: population 110,000), or even shrinking cities that have lost as much as half their populations (such as Detroit or Youngstown or Buffalo).
In some of these places, returning parts of the city to “nature” makes a certain amount of sense. So does planning for future density, which many of these places currently lack. Indeed, over the past decade, planning and design organizations, from Smart Growth America and the Congress for the New Urbanism to the American Institute of Architects, have grown increasingly alive to their environmental responsibilities, rendering the environmental movement itself more complex and city-focused than Owen makes it out to be. I hope we can talk about some of these issues in our salon today.
Owen makes a point, almost in passing, that also deserves further conversation: rather than reducing the carbon footprints of apartment buildings or growing food on precious urban real estate, cities should be focusing on “old-fashioned quality-of-life concerns” such as education, crime, noise, and recreational amenities—the very troubles that drove people into suburbia in the first place.
Traditional environmentalists tend to give short shrift to these issues, he says, because they don’t “feel green.” Yet they applaud suburbanites who strenuously compost, weatherize, and install solar panels on their roofs, which barely makes a dent in addressing our collective dependency on fossil fuel. Owen’s book draws our attention to this hypocrisy—in which he himself participates, as he notes bravely and ruefully—and should inspire a good deal of soul searching. We can only hope that it also will contribute to real policy change.



78 Comments












Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
David, Welcome to the Lake.
Catherine, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Hello. Thanks.
Hi all. David? Bev? Are you here?
Hi.
Hi. Shall I start the conversation with a few questions?
Perfect
For many people, the idea that Manhattan offers the most environmentally sound form of living will seem counterintuitive. Manhattan, with all those skyscrapers and traffic jams, and so little green space. Can you throw out a few carbon-footprint statistics that support this wild notion?
Manhattan residents are the lowest per-capita energy users in the country. They have the highest rate of public transit use and the lowest rate of automobile ownership, and they live in the smallest spaces. They don’t have lawns. They walk to the grocery store. Overall, residents of New York City–including all five boroughs–have the smallest per-capita carbon footprint in the country, a little over 7 metric tons, vs. a national average of more than 24.
Your book, it seems, is primarily directed at people who live in small towns and suburban areas, who want to live “healthily” near “nature” and also want to reduce their carbon footprint. But many of them live in such settlements not because they hate the city but because they want to put their kids in good public schools. Isn’t it better for them to drive a Prius, weatherize their homes, and install a few solar panels, than to drive a Ford Excursion and heat their homes at 80 degrees with minimal insulation? Or do these measures really not make a heck of a lot of difference? I don’t mean to sound glib here, but it does seem that that’s what you’re saying.
Good afternoon David and Catherine and welcome to FDL.
David, I have not had an opportunity to read your book but Catherine’s introduction does lead me to a couple of questions.
Are you a native New Yorker? Have you ever lived in any of the small towns (not even the smaller cities that Catherine mentions but real small towns population less than 10k?
Many of the folks in these towns probably use far less resources and are quite accustomed to re-use and re-cycling, moving from point a to point b by walking or bicycling.
And actually are able to breath and are not forced to use the air conditioning or heating resources to the same level as in Manhattan.
(Note: I grew up in small town Kentucky, have lived in all points of the country, and was identifiably most miserable during the year I worked in Manhattan (living in a furnished studio in Battery Park City during the week and commuting ‘home’ to Connecticut on weekends via Amtrak)
We all have to do what we can. I think we Americans are very good at solving problems when the solution involves buying something: a different car, a new kitchen, better tasting tomatoes. We’re less good when the solution involves less. We’re obviously not going to turn the country into Manhattan, but New York City nonetheless many valuable environmental lessons. For example, the New York metropolitan area accounts for almost a third of all the public-transit passenger miles traveled in the United States. Why? Because in order to make public transit work, you need people who live close to one another and close to their daily destinations. Density makes transportation more efficient, and it makes many other things more efficient as well. Density shrinks carbon footprints. Why does the average European have a smaller carbon footprint than the average American? Because Europeans are more likely to live in dense cities and less likely to drive cars.
I understand recent studies show that places like that are necessary for our mental health. I know I need open space, even if it’s not as big as Central Park. (It feels really good to be able to be where I’m farther away from ‘urban’ than a hundred or so feet, even if it’s still in a city.)
My wife and I spent seven years living in Manhattan, in the late 70s and early 80s. In 1985, we moved to a small town–population less than 4,000–and it was that move that made me begin to think about the comparative environmental impact of city living versus country living. When people think about life in the country, they picture long walks in the woods, canoeing on isolated lakes, eating eggs from your own chickens. But what you really do when you move out of the city is move into a car. We think of cars as an “urban” phenomenon, but when the automobile first began to catch on in the U.S., in the early 20th century, the biggest market was in rural areas and small towns. And cars are the key to America’s supersized carbon footprint. Not only, or even mainly, because of the fuel that they themselves consume, but because of the extraordinarily wasteful way they both allow and force us to live.
(Hi, dakine01)
Yes, our culture of consumption surely contributes heavily to our massive carbon footprint. In your book you seem quite critical of the locavore movement, which is one attempt to counter that culture. What’s wrong with eating with one eye cocked on the food miles your meal has traveled to get to your plate? You seem to think that it’s not only ineffectual, but environmentally unsound.
Strangely, the traffic in Manhattan is one of the reasons that people are more likely to walk or take the subway. It takes too long to get around by car or even taxi.
The problem is that Manhattanites are a select group. Most people don’t want to live in boxes stacked on top of each other. (BTW, I have lived in Manhattan for decades, but am gradually moving to the country in my retirement. So the lifestyles I describe are not my personal ones, but ones I’ve observed over the years are preferred by U.S.ians.) As an economist, I’d say the only way to change people’s living preferences is to make suburbanites and those who live even father out pay the full cost. But, of course, there would be no political will to do something onerous to change people’s preferences.
I will definitely agree with this one. I ‘m in a minority I know but I tend to be quite willing to let the lawn go au naturale. But do have to say, if you grow up in areas with a lot of green, you might not like the attitudes if all were forced into concrete canyons.
My critique of Central Park is that it would be better at serving the function you mention if it were either broken up into smaller parks and scattered through the city, or moved away from the center. Central Park acts as what Jane Jacobs called a “border vacuum.” It acts as a barrier to the flow of human activity, and, because of its size, actually discourages walking. New Yorkers are more likely to take a cab across the park than they are to walk the same distance along a city street–and New Yorkers are some of the last people in America who use walking as a major form of transportation.
Whatever it takes, Cynthia! In his book, David argues that traffic congestion is a good thing since it deters us from driving, and that therefore we shouldn’t take measures to alleviate it. Sounds about right to me.
For this very reason, traffic jams have environmental value. When most people talk about “solving” the environmental problems of cars, the solutions they have in mind tend to either involve reducing the cost of driving (by increasing miles per gallon) or reducing the inconvenience of driving (by eliminating congestion). To get people out of their cars, you have to do two things: you have to create sufficient density of people and destinations, and you have to make driving either too expensive or too unpleasant. New York has half of all the subway stops in the United States. It’s also the only place in America where you’re likely to hear someone say, “We’d better take the subway–we don’t have time to drive.”
Welcome David, Catherine, and thank you Bev!
I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, and we recently had one of our ‘essential’ roadways, the Bay Bridge, fail. For days, the bridge was closed for a cable repair, and commuters scrambled for alternatives. Turns out that the alternatives were there all along – BART, CalTrain, etc.
While I do not suggest that this is to be hoped for, as our infrastructure continues to break down nationwide, have we perhaps built in the solutions along with the problems?
I guess you’ve never actually visited Central Park.
Jane Jacobs is against most parks. She prefers wide sidewalks and uneven store fronts so the older-than-5 kids have places to hang out.
Central Park on the other hand is not the kind of park Jane Jacobs abhors–those are the smaller ones you advocate that are good only for 2-5 year olds and drug dealers. Central Park is heavily used by adults for recreation and smaller parks could not possibily serve the same purpose.
Central Park is important for more than mental health. Each borough has a major park for a reason, they are the lungs of the city producing urgently needed oxygen and filtering particulate matter out of the air.
The air quality in and around, not only major parks like Central park, Van Cortland Park and Prospect Park, but also around the smaller green space parks and community gardens, is significantly better than in neighborhoods without greenspace.
It was for this reason that NYC began both the “vest pocket park” Program under Mayor Lindsey and the “Greenspace” program under Mayor Koch.
A major city needs a plentiful supply of clean water and clean air in order to support human habitation.
Just as the Croton Hudson reservoir system supplies the clean water, the parks system supplies clean air.
Shorter Cindy, keep your mitts off our parks!
Agreed. One of the problems I noticed when I lived outside of Boston (Waltham) was that there was good mass transit in and out of the city but NOT between the various ‘burbs where a lot of jobs were located. So even if I wanted to use something, it just wasn’t available.
Several people urged me to ask you this, David, and it is partly to eCAHNomic’s point: What about all those New Yorkers who have second homes in the country and regularly fly around the world in airplanes? Doesn’t that rather expand the small-ish carbon footprint they put down through living in a high-density city?
Very true. But I think mainstream American environmentalists have let us down, by encouraging the idea that urban life is depraved, and that the only way to lead an authentic life is to live in direct contact with nature. I live in a 220-year-old house across a dirt road from a 4,000-acre nature preserve, but there’s nothing noble about that. It’s a luxury consumption preference with a huge energy and carbon footprint. My daughter, who now lives in a studio apartment in Manhattan and walks to work, has a vastly smaller carbon footprint than she did when she lived at home in the country.
All of this is very well said, however, NYC seems dependent on flights in and out and from what I understand every 4th flight is equivalent to living in a 20,000 sq ft house. How does this mesh with NY’s low carbon footprint?
I have a hard time believing that the 1500 lbs of food waste from our kitchen and all of the leaves and yard waste that we compost every year does not make a difference. I have a hard time swallowing that since we started agressively recycling and composting our garbage output has gone from 5 cans a week to 1…and that this does not have a big impact.
Miles are the wrong way to think about food. Here’s a simple, dumb example: if I drive my car five miles and ride my bike ten miles, which is worse, environmentally? Environmental impact is far more complicated than simple distance. To evaluate the carbon footprint of a food preference, you have to do a full life cycle analysis–how was it grown? how was it irrigated? how was the energy produced? what else was traveling with it when it was shipped to the place where I bought it? how did I get it home? The answers are often surprising. Simply driving to a farmer’s market can enlarge the carbon footprint of a “local” meal far beyond the carbon footprint even of a meal shipped from another continent. I go into this in greater detail in my book, and I highly recommend an excellent book on this topic alone: “Just Food,” by James McWilliams.
And, there is actually a huge difference between living in a rural area and a suburban area.
Rural homes do not have the choice of heating with natural gas; they are huge particulate creators from burning fuel oil, wood, coal and the like. Even the best, most modern, most energy efficient home in a rural area does not have the choice (unless you live someplace like Arizona) of heating with a clean fuel.
When you talk about ‘good school districts’, by and large you are talking about suburban school districts; rural school districts, by and large (and I live in one and my kids graduated from the schools)suffer from large costs and few resources and thereby suffer in terms of quality. You will NOT find IB or large numbers of AP courses in rural school districts.
Some rural areas have ‘call a bus’ and such public transport services, but they are on an ad hoc basis, so people do not use them for commuting. Everyone not only owns a car; in many households, they own multiple cars.
Rural roads tend to be secondary and tertiary; they by and large are not set up with wide shoulders or speed control and therefore ‘feel’ more dangerous for bicycling or pedestrian traffic. There are a lot of things about living in rural areas which mitigate against lowering a carbon footprint.
That alternative is available in a city like SF, or even in Atlanta. But what about places like Peoria, which ripped out their light-rail systems decades ago? These systems should be rebuilt, I think, instead of putting so much money into high-speed rail. This is sacrilege among most Smart Growth people.
If the premise of the environmental cost of food relies upon it’s full life cycle of food, then doesn’t the low carbon footprint of a high density resident have to go up when you take into consideration the life cycle of cities, i.e. the full cost of infrastructure creation.
Historic preservationists argue that the greenist house is the one that is already built, once you take into account all the energy consumed in mining, logging, transportation, construction of a new building, no matter how much more energy efficient it is.
New Yorkers aren’t the only Americans who fly, as you may have noticed–and their flying is factored into their carbon footprint. And when they do fly, they are far more likely to travel to the airport by public transportation than other Americans are. But don’t think of this as a competition between New York and everyone else. Think, instead, about what it is that makes people energy-efficient and reduces their carbon footprint. Spreading people out may make them feel green, but it actually increases the damage they do to the environment while making that damage harder to see and to address. If you spread the 8.2 million residents of New York City out at the population density of Vermont (which Forbes chose as the greenest state) you’d need space equal to the land area of Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia (while also finding places to put all the people who lived in those states already). And then they’d need cars and roads and gas stations and strip malls and power-generating stations and waste proccessing plants–all the wasteful, carbon-spewing, redundant infrastructure of suburbia.
I’d also like to ask how rain fall and water run-off functions in a big city in regards to the Centra Park issue. How eliminating or heavily reducing a large green space (that can actually absorb natural rain fall) and putting all of that water into an aging and full sewer system is of a big help. This also confused me.
You’re right about economics. People respond to incentives. When we price energy correctly, people do what we want them to do. In 2008, something happened that not even optimistic environmentalists had been predicting: it’s carbon footprint shrank, and by a significant amount, more than 2.5 percent. Americans drove less, used public transportation more, turned down their thermostats, stopped heating their swimming pools, and abandoned the Hummer. Why? Because energy got very expensive, and the global economy tanked. The biggest producer of manmade greenhouse gases has always been prosperity. I’m no proponent of recessions, but from an environmental point of view there is something to be said for them.
New York has huge issues with water handling. It has an ancient sewer system, and big rains overwhelm it. Population density also makes disasters more efficient. On 9/11, the plane that went down in the Pennsylvania countryside killed the people on the plane, while the planes that went down in New York killed thousands and could have killed tens of thousands if the circumstances had been slightly different.
“But I think mainstream American environmentalists have let us down, by encouraging the idea that urban life is depraved, and that the only way to lead an authentic life is to live in direct contact with nature.”
Haven’t read Muir but I don’t believe that Thoreau advocated that position nor do most mainstream enviros. I think that may be the media cartoon reading of environmentalism. However, there is a stream of American environmental thought that can be considered as focusing on cities – the settlement house movement of the early 20th century to improve urban conditions for the poor, the back to the land movement of the Sixties ©™ all rights reserved had an analog in the urban homesteading movement with models like the Integral Urban House in Berkeley, the solar collectors and rooftop windmill in the Lower East Side, the explosion of urban gardening with the Green Guerrillas in NYC and Boston Urban Gardeners here on my home turf, the Bronx Pioneers in the South Bronx with their composting operation and many, many more.
I consider myself an enviro/eco and all of my work has been in urban environments with community gardens, farmers’ markets, building the urban/rural coalition (thank you MA State Rep Mel King), doing solar barnraisings in the 1970s and weatherization barnraisings now.
Have you looked at that stream of American environmentalism at all?
PS: I have one room off-grid with solar LED lights in a rented apartment in Central Square, Cambridge. Cost me about $100. But then I start small while the dominant culture ignores everything that isn’t big, Big, BIG!!!
Points well taken. And, no, there couldn’t be any real competition between NY and other cities, since NY is sui generis, not only in terms of density, but in terms of the history and geography that make it unique. But this might be a place to move into another line of inquiry. In your book, you seem to take issue with planners, and yet many planners in other smaller cities (not small towns, but cities) are trying to plan for future density. Do you think it’s infeasible? Do you think they’re wasting their time and should simply wait for gas prices to rise permanently. I wonder myself.
The “embedded energy” argument about buildings tends to end at the skin of the building. It’s much more revealing to do a full life cycle analysis, placing the building in its context and taking account of how it’s actually used. An example in my book is the building that contains the New Yorker’s offices–the Conde Nast Building, at 4 Times Square. It has many celebrated “green” features–photovoltaic panels in the skin, fuel cells on the roof–but the building’s greenest thing is one that is seldom mentioned: it’s a 1.6-million-square-foot building that doesn’t have a parking lot. Why? Because 95 percent of the people who work in it walk to work or take public transportation. There isn’t a building in Manhattan that doesn’t deserve LEED Platinum status on that basis alone.
David, from a social and cultural point of view, I found your point that “to be liberated from the grid is to be liberated from other people” arresting. Toiling away in the basement generating and monitoring your own energy use certainly sounds antisocial … and not in a good way. But why is it not “green”?
Thoreau is a good example–the thoughtful American living off the grid and in harmony with nature–because in order to reproduce his experience you have to move another mile farther along. The image of Walden Pond is a powerful sprawl generator. We all tend to think of ourselves as the last unsinning residents of wherever we live. We find an unspoiled place, and then when others follow and spoil it for us, we move again.
I think that the environmental issues in dense cities are different from the environemntal issues in sprawling suburbs, and are different again from those in rural areas. In dense cities, the critical environmental issues are not solar panels on roofs. They’re quality of life issues, like education, crime, the smell of urine, recreational opportunities, etc.–all the things that drive people to the suburbs. Trying to make cities more like the country has the problem the wrong way around.
The Conde Nast Building is an office building, isn’t it? If so, it is basically unoccupied for 16 hours out of 24 five days a week and unoccupied completely for two days of the week. This is a point Bucky Fuller made about cities quite a few decades ago. Did that fact figure into your calculations of green-ness?
PS: What do you think of Architecture 2030 and what Ed Mazria is trying to do?
PPS: LEED is a standard based upon plans rather than actual results, or so my sources tell me. There are a number of architects and designers and builders who are going beyond LEED every day. My energy efficiency sources like HERS much better.
NYC has what is know as a “combined sewer system? which is to say that our storm sewer system runs into the same water treatment plant as our sanitary sewer system. Consequently large rainfalls tend to overwhelm the water pollution control plants.
Beaches along the bay cost and the Long Island sound are often closed for a couple days after a big thunderstorm because the water quality becomes unsafe.
I get the backing of the population density. Not sure how 9/11 got in there. I just have a hard time agreeing with the “Just pack them tighter in concrete cities and it’ll be better for everyone. They’ll share stuff because they’ll have to. They’ll live in tiny apartments that are shabbily taken care of by off-site land lords becausue they’ll have to. Oh…and they’ll pay through the nose for it. But they’ll all take the bus, subway, and taxis. That’s good, right?”
With this type of thinking, you could also argue that since New Yorkers are in such close proximity to each other, that they share body heat on the streets and sidewalks, making them more efficient humans and needing less energy to function.
I live in Cleveland and am on the composting team for the Cleveland Greenhouse Project. To hopefully be a 60,000+ sq ft green house, aquaponic, composting, and educational facility. Taking in food scraps, leaves, grass clippings, wood chips and outputting fresh vegetables, nutrient rich compost, and farm raised fish. And we are aiming to eventually have the entire facility off the grid for power.
60,000 square feet in Manhattan for something like this? Never going to happen.
My point is, all of our neighborhood have the potential to contribute significantly to reducing our carbon footprint. To dismiss the surburban contribution and only say that the dense city is the way to go…well…I would like to invite you to Cleveland so you can see for yourself what we are doing.
The rule of thumb is that cities are responsible for 75 percent of the world’s greenhouse gas emissions. A more conservative figure puts it at 40 percent. Still, that’s a lot. These figures would seem to support the need to weatherize buildings and to make them more energy efficient. Do you think such efforts are a waste of time and resources?
The real test of any lifestyle choice is to multiply it by 300 million (the current population of the United States), 7 billion (close to the current population of the world), and 9 billion (the projected population of the world 30 or 40 years into the future. Dense cities scale up (to borrow a term from computer science); isolated eco-redoubts don’t. The Rocky Mountain Institute’s headquarters–a solar-powered 4000-square-foot building at the end of a gravel road on a fragile, isolated piece of land at 7000 feet in the Rockies, more than 180 miles from the nearest significant public transit system–isn’t a model of sustainability; it’s a model of sprawl.
They walk to the grocery store… Where do the groceries come from and how much carbon is involved in shipping them to the grocery store?
Granted there’s similar shipping costs for grocery stores situated in rural areas, but that’s also something locavores would like to change.
Yes…that is what I thought. It’s built like a lot of major cities across the country. This should be a factor when city planners get the great idea of eliminating even more green space. And if there is just no way around the conversion, at least consider a rain capture system to keep the water burden being passed on to the taxed sewer system.
If you have ever been in a city with a large flood that backs up the city sewer system, you know that it’s any thing BUT environmentally friendly. And it takes a significant amount of energy for the cleanup, sterilization and such.
We’re not going to tear down the country and start again. We’re all going to have to do what we can. Those of us who live in oversized dwellings in automobile dependent communities are going to have a harder, more expensive time of it than people who live in smaller spaces in closer proximity to their daily destinations. My nice big house in my nice little town will be a chilly, lonely place when the price of energy forces me to cut back on driving, heating, etc. By contrast, my daughter–living without a car in a small apartment in Manhattan–will scarcely notice the difference.
David, you have a lot of compelling things to say about renewable energy and the grid. That altering one’s relationship with the grid with things like net-metering and distributed electricity generation, disrupts efficiencies of scale that ultimately reduce our carbon output. These two reforms are almost sacrosanct among advocates of alternative energy. What can you say here that might help them to be receptive to your argument, and to interest them in reading that section of your book?
If the introductory post is any guide, this sounds like a remarkably silly book. More intelligent community planning is something we definitely need but energy consumption/carbon footprint is only one component in the design matrix. The extremer position put forth may make for good polemic and a way to sell more books but in terms of livable, sustainable communities it is a caricature.
There is also the idea od deicated systems sperating the rainwater runnoff frot he sanitary system,
If you want ot get fancy, you can further seperate the “gey water” (bathtub and laundry sewage) from the true “sanitary sewage” by having seperate system you minimize the amount of capacity you take up in the digester tanks in the water pollution control plant and can limit e coli contamination of the effluent reciving waterways in the event of a storm.
Newer plant in NYC have holding tank to accumulate runoff overflow. I think the plant by Shea Stadium may have such a system.
But, if you keep the stormwater sewer sytem seperate, you can flip a bypass valve inthe event of a rainstorm and let untreated storm water runnof flow out. It will still have conatimanats (like oil form the roads and fertilizer) that you wish wasn’t going intot he waterway, but atleast you avoid the e coli contamination and the brown tide
When food travels across the country, it travels in bulk shipments by conveyances far more fuel-efficient than the family SUV. When food travels from a regional distributor to your grocery store, it doesn’t travel there one or two bags at a time in the back seat of a Chevrolet Suburban. If you want to analyze the true environmental impact of your food purchases, you have to be willing to do some arithmetic. As one environmentalist said, living close to a grocery store is better for the environment than living close to a farm.
Food is a highly emotional issue. It’s sometimes easier to think about life cycle analysis if you apply it to something you don’t eat. Should we drive only hybrid cars manufactured within a hundred miles of where we live? Should there be an iPhone factory in every American town, so that we can reduce our “iPhone miles” when we buy a new phnone? Should Connecticut farmers begin growing cotton so that I can wear jeans that originate closer to where I live?
The best thing for the environment is to concentrate production in places where production is the most efficient and has the smallest environmental impact, and concentrate people in the places where human habitation is the most efficient and has the smallest environmental impact. “Locavorism” is an inducement to sprawl.
We live in Shaker Heights, a suburb of Cleveland. We have a small yard, two gardens, five compost bins. I teach two days a week for which I have to drive my car 5 miles. For the other 3 days during the week my car typically is in the driveway (more often than not). This is because I can ride my bike or walk to the grocery store, bank, movie store, hardware store, several restaurants, etc.
The high price of gas did not have a big effect on our household. And we live in the suburbs…a nice little town with good schools. I can’t be sure, but if I had to bet, you daughter’s rent is probably higher than my mortgage payments. All locations will have their pros and cons.
I am saving up for a gas/electric hybrid scooter to hopefully reduce us to a single car household. If nitrogen scooters were in a better place technology wise and price wise, I would consider buying one of those.
We are all trying to do our part.
One tremendous difficulty with cities–including not only New York but also efficient old low-carbon cities in Europe–is the impossibility of rolling them up temporarily to update the aging infrastructure underneath them. This is a huge issue, and time makes it worse. A coastal city like New York is also extremely vulnerable to even small rises in sea level. A hydraulic engineer told me that a rise of even a few inches would cause New York’s double sewer system to break down entirely.
Urban building rooftops could be used to control storm water issues in cities–a good, environmentally friendly use for them.
“Should we drive only hybrid cars manufactured within a hundred miles of where we live? Should there be an iPhone factory in every American town, so that we can reduce our ‘iPhone miles’ when we buy a new phnone?”
Desktop fabricators are now available for roughly $1000 if you build it yourself. Local production (or as Gandhi called it, swadeshi) is going to be widely available before 2020. It might be a little like Neil Stephenson’s _Diamond Age_. We are going to have to deal with the possibility of a hybrid car or iPhone manufactured in your local fablab much sooner than we might think.
Exactly. And you are able to do what you do because the place where you live is dense enough to make it possible. That is, you and your daily destinations are close enough together to make those efficiencies possible. In other words, the place where you live is more like Manhattan than the places where most Americans life. The thing that makes Manhattan efficient and keeps its carbon footprint small is the same thing that does that for you.
Why can’t we have a combination of both? So many cities, particularly in the Midwest, sit atop some of the richest soil in the world. It seems to me that some of that land could be used to feed the local population, while also exporting it to less fruitful ag regions across the US and the globe. The trouble is that that land is now given over to commodity crops like corn and soy, with all the high carbon, petro-based fertilizers that that are part of the industrial food system.
Yes, David…you are correct on that. I teach at the Cleveland Institute of Art (CIA) and we are in the midst of major construction to one of our buildings. A green roof is in the works. This make me happy and even prouder to be a part of art and design college that considers it’s own impact on the environment.
I can have “green” projects in my graphic design classes and emphasize eco-friendly solutions all I want. But CIA walking-the-walk really drives it home.
No, we need to do all of that, and more. But increasing efficiency isn’t enough, because the lesson of history is that as useful tasks become more efficient we tend to do more of them, not less. We need to make cars more fuel-efficient–but if that’s the only action we take then all we’re really doing is making driving less expensive. And that has exactly the same effect as cutting the price of fuel. As we make CARS more efficient we have to compensate by making DRIVING less efficient, so that people don’t simply drive more. There was an interview on NPR a couple of years ago with a young woman who was having a hard time affording gas for her SUV. She said that if gas got as high as $3.50, she’d just have to start taking the bus–and she laughed as she said it, as though it were an amusing absurdity. But of course moving her from a Chevy Tahoe to a bus would be a good outcome for the environment, not only because it would reduce her personal fuel consumption but because it would reduce, by one car, the outward pressure that causes suburbs to metastisize. Moving her into a Prius, by contrast, would simply make that economic pressure go away. It would be the equivalent, for her, of rolling gasoline back to $1.50 a gallon.
I have been to Manhattan. It looks, feels, smells, and functions nothing like Shaker Heights. They do share a wide diversity in people, I’ll give you that. It’s one of the reasons we moved here.
Here’s something to think about. The population of the United States is projected to increase by a third during the next forty years. That’s a population INCREASE equivalent to the combined current populations of New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Phoenix, Philadelphia, San Antonio, Dallas, San Diego, San Jose, Detroit, San Francisco, Jacksonville, Indianapolis, Austin, Columbus, Fort Worth, Charlotte, Memphis, Baltimore, El Paso, Boston, Milwaukee, Denver, Seattle, Nashville, Washington, Las Vegas, Portland, Louisville, Oklahoma City, Tucson, Atlanta, Albuquerque, Fresno, Sacramento, Long Beach (California), Mesa (Arizona), Kansas City, Omaha, Cleveland, Virginia Beach, Miami, Oakland, Raleigh, Tulsa, Minneapolis, Colorado Springs, Honolulu, Arlington (Texas), Wichita, St. Louis, Tampa, Santa Ana, Anaheim, Cincinnati, Bakersfield, Aurora (Colorado), New Orleans, Pittsburgh, and the next hundred or so largest American municipalities. How will we manage that growth? If we manage that population growth the way we have historically–by spreading it out across former farms and forests, in low-density automobile-dependent suburbs–then we might as well pack it in, environmentally.
David,
As we’ve gone through this discussion, I think a couple of questions have crystalized for me:
Would you want to have folks pushed into “company town” areas where everyone who worked for a specific employer/manufacturer was grouped together?
What about the folks who do live out in the rural areas, raising whatever crops are in those areas? Go to big factory farms? Even more so than it already is?
Do you offer realistic solutions in the book? What about people who change jobs? Do you have all computer folks in one location, all textiles grouped together, all auto, etc?
It just really does seem from the discussion that what you propose has a lot of flaws that would make implementation virtually impossible.
I don’t think anyone here advocates sprawl. But how to rein it in? How might the alternatives be implemented in currently lower-density cities? And, again, what might the role be for planners in these places?
You misunderstand me if you think I’m arguing that suburban life isn’t appealing. I moved out of New York 25 years ago and have never wished to move back. What I’m arguing is that living the way you and I live is inherently less efficient and more damaging to the environment than living in dense, mixed-use urban cores that are even less dependent on automobiles than you are.
Forget Manhattan. Think about residential college campuses. They’re green, too–in comparison with typical American communities–and for exactly the same reasons. Their inhabitants live in small spaces, in which they accumulate far fewer unused possessions than average Americans, and they travel among virtually all their daily destination by walking or by using public transportation. Density is inherenly green.
You can travel for miles through American suburbs and see no one actually walking to a destination. You sometimes see people moving between buildings and cars, and you sometimes see people trying to lose weight. If you want to see people moving under their own power outside, go to a city.
As we come to the end of this interesting Book Salon,
David, Thank you for stopping by and spending the afternoon discussing your new book and the environment.
Catherine, Thank you very much for Hosting this Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t bought David’s book yet, here is a link.
Thanks all.
Following your line of thinking, wouldn’t it be a good idea to raise the money to build and maintain high density cities by taxing residents with larger carbon footprints?
Possibly. But that won’t happen. At least I don’t believe it will.
Look back 40 year ago. Where was the country then? Lots of people saying back then “Going to Hell in a hand basket”, “Society is crumbling” etc, etc. For different reasons, but nonetheless.
The mere fact that I can search on-line for hunderds of different electric scooters gives me hope. The fact that fuel cells and hydrogen technology are finally getting some momentum give me hope. That people in Cleveland are planning the first fresh-water wind farm (turbines) makes me warm inside beyond belief.
And that my kids, before they put ANYTHING in the trash, go through the “can I recycle or compost this?” routine in their thought process, makes me feel like the next generation will hit the ground running.
Jane Hamsher is upstairs…
Mary Landrieu: “At Some Point, Harry Reid Will Have To Indulge Us Spoiled Children”
Thank you! It’s been an interesting discussion, and I hope we can all find ways, suited to the peculiarities of our own communities, to find the right balance between density and quality of life, while reducing our carbon footprints. It’s a real challenge.
I think we need to encourage growth in places where human habitation is most efficient and least damaging, and discourage it in places where it does the most harm. The current economic situation is doing that accidentally. A couple of years ago, it seemed that no force on earth could slow the outward growth of Las Vegas and its sprawling suburbs, which were spreading across the valley floor like spilled water. But the recession stopped it cold. How do we do that without putting people out of work? That’s the key question. I think we do it by taxing fossil fuels to the point where people feel squeezed. Doing that would create a huge incentive to create useful efficiencies, to develop renewable energy sources, and do all the good things we want to do. And then we make it revenue neutral (and keep it from becoming societally disastrous) by returning that money to people in ways that protect the weak while maintaining incentives to do the right thing. Whether that’s politically conceivable. . . .
As we have seen with the TBTF in banking, size isn’t everything. With them, efficiency didn’t scale up. The same is true of mega-cities. Food, water, energy, resources have to be diverted or transported greater distances. Not only do such cities obliterate the eco-system in which they occur they affect large areas around them, especially with regard to water and sewage.
This goes with my previous comment. Taking a single component and treating it as if it was the only one creates a distorted, simplistic view of urban and community planning in general. Most of all the issue of population is ignored. If our population and that of the world continue to grow in essentially an uncontrolled fashion they will increase until they collapse. We see this in both animal populations and in human history.
There are questions worth asking, for example what is the optimal size of a city for a given geographic area taking into account the distribution of people and resources in the greater region and what exactly the city’s purpose is vis a vis that region and in the larger economy of the country?
Something like that, I think. People tend to do what they’re rewarded for doing. At a conference once, I suggested that the Nature Conservancy, instead of buying unspoiled pieces of land, should buy urban parking lots and build apartment buildings on them–to beneficially increase local density while making driving more annoying. I was looking for a laugh, but the underlying point is serious. The best way to preserve open spaces if to keep people from sprawling into them, and the only truly effective way to do that is to increase the density of human communities.
Hi Dave, here in Sacramento, in the mid-town and adjacent regions of this lovey, lush, tree laden city, we have a strong bike culture (and many dedicated bike lanes), a regional transit system with growing ridership, but decreasing funding (thanks Der Gropenfeuhrer), and a great mix of retail, residential, mixed income, fluid job market, amazing farmer’s markets (including the Sunday, under the freeway, United Nations diversity) with very fresh, very local food and agricultural products. A thriving arts community, pedestrain friendly streets, and visiters are always surprised by how nice an urban environment with obvious natural aspects and livability can be. Have you visited, or plan to?
My critique is Central Park is straight from Jane Jacobs, from the Death and Life of Great American Cities. She raises the same questions I do.
Thank you for allowing me to participate and I just want to add that I live in the Tampa Bay area with public transportation. I drive as little as possible with several errands in one trip. Thanx