[Welcome Marc J. Hetherinton, Jonathan Weiler, and Host Henry Farrell - bev]
Authoritarianism and Polarization in American Politics
Marc Hetherington and Jonathan Weiler’s new book re-examines the recent course of American politics. They tell us about how authoritarian politics – especially on the right – have helped give rise to increasing polarization between Republicans and Democrats. This is an important contribution to debate among political scientists about polarization, but deserves a much wider readership. If they are right – and the differences between authoritarians and non-authoritarians are the key factor driving polarized politics – then many of the received wisdoms of the punditocracy are flat out wrong. Right wing columnists like Michael Gerson and Clive Crook, who deplore the increasing extremism of American politics and especially of the left, are missing out on the ways in which right wing politics are increasingly based around authoritarianism and intolerance.
First though, it is necessary to be clear about language. Authoritarianism, as political scientists define it, is different from the every day sense of the word. For Americanist political scientists, authoritarianism does not necessarily denote hostility to democracy. Instead, it refers to a syndrome of attitudes which emphasize traditional authority, depicts politics in black and white terms as a struggle between good and evil, and involves hostility towards groups (gays, immigrants) who are seen as disrupting the social order. Hetherington and Weiler argue that it is best measured by looking at how people think about family and child rearing. Those who emphasize discipline and obedience are likely to be authoritarians. Those who instead want to encourage their kids to be curious and self-reliant are likely to be non-authoritarian.And there are lots of authoritarians in America – there are more strong authoritarians than there are strong non-authoritarians. For Hetherington and Weiler, the story of American politics over the last several decades has been one of a political realignment around the differences between authoritarians and non-authoritarians. It used to be as best as we can tell (the opinion survey research that this book relies on doesn’t have good data before the early 1970s) that authoritarians were not especially associated with any one party. Indeed, the kinds of politics that emphasizes authoritarianism was submerged by the New Deal and debates around it. However, Nixon and his successors saw that it was possible to build a new political coalition, which would make Democratic-leaning authoritarians into reliable Republican voters. They did this by emphasizing race, law and order and ‘strength’ in foreign policy. The last few decades have seen this strategy work out. Authoritarian Democrats – especially in the South, but among white ethnic voters in the North too – became Reagan Republicans.
A second important element of their story involves external threats. Some political scientists have argued that authoritarians are likely to be most visibly different from the rest of the population in times of crisis, where they will over-emphasize the dangers posed by threats to social order, external enemies and so on. Hetherington and Weiler argue instead that it is just at these moments that lots of other people start to look like authoritarians. When non-authoritarians are traumatized by a shock such as September 11, they may become more authoritarian in outlook as long as the relevant threat seems politically salient. This is why authoritarian politicians (who are today mostly concentrated in the Republican party) do well in times of external threat – they get not only the regular authoritarian voters, but non-authoritarian voters, who have been primed by the crisis, too.
Hetherington and Weiler argue that there are still some authoritarians left in the Democratic party. They suggest that the battle between Obama and Clinton for the Democratic nomination is best interpreted in terms of authoritarianism, since the two candidates’ actual policies were nearly indistinguishable from each other. Obama was as non-authoritarian a political figure as you could imagine – he tried to appeal to voters using a complex message of healing and unity, and was culturally exotic. To attack him, Clinton started using the language of authoritarianism, depicting herself as strong, rooted in traditional American culture, able to swill beer and with roots in a hard-scrabble town.
This is an interesting and important set of arguments. I won’t focus on the political science elements – but I do want to push them on some questions.
First – how well does your framework explain the dynamics of the Presidential election after the primaries were over? In your postscript, you appear somewhat hesitant, and suggest that many authoritarian voters swallowed their values and voted their economic interests, supporting Obama because of the economic crisis. It may be that events since then (Obama’s loss of support among working class voters) can be explained by a return to authoritarianism, but it may also be that this is explained by the ways in which his economic policies emphasized the soundness of the financial system over visible job creation.
Second, and a follow-on to the first – how do the teabaggers fit into your story? On the one hand, they look like the most obviously authoritarian political movement we have seen in the US in the last few decades. On the other hand, they are mainly mobilized around the kinds of New Deal issues – bailouts, social policy, health care etc – that you see as having been replaced by the authoritarian divide. Do you need to update your definition of authoritarianism to include economic cleavages too? Or does it make sense, alternatively, to re-examine existing attitudes to social policy etc (as many political scientists do) in terms of attitudes towards race, which you see as linked to authoritarianism.
Third – How does this link to politics in the blogosphere? I suspect that you see right wing blogs as often involving strongly authoritarian politics and expressing authoritarian attitudes. How are they distinguished from the left? You take care to distinguish authoritarianism from the kinds of vigorous partisan rhetoric seen in blogs like this one, or dKos (which you mention in passing). You cite Glenn Greenwald as a source. It would be nice to see a more explicit analysis of why you think (as I believe you do) that the kinds of impassioned politics on the online left differ from those of the online right.
Fourth – when you say that events like 9/11 can prime non-authoritarians to become more authoritarian, do you mean to say that they become more authoritarian on only the issues related to the specific threat (e.g. terrorism and foreign policy in the case of 9/11), or authoritarian on a whole host of issues unconnected to that threat (e.g. gay rights etc). Obviously, these are pretty different effects. And if, to quote Michael Bérubé, there are a lot of people thinking everything changed for me on September 11. I used to consider myself a Democrat, but thanks to 9/11, I’m outraged by Chappaquiddick then temporary events may have very broad political consequences.
Fifth – and in defense of authoritarians – are they really as limited as you suggest. You argue that they may very literally be at an arrested stage of development, unable to get beyond parental notions of authority. But some of the evidence that you cite suggests that they can make reasonably subtle distinctions. For example, I was surprised to see that two thirds of authoritarians, despite a general animus towards gay people, support gay people being allowed to join the military. This argues, I think, for a more subtle account of authoritarianism than the one you suggest.



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Marc, Jonathan, Welcome to the Lake.
Henry, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
We are here.
You are very welcome!
Thanks for having us
Welcome Professor Hetherington and Professor Weiler.
Would you mind clarify what you mean by “individuals’ levels of authoritarianism,” as, if I understand your argument correctly, this seems to be at the heart of your argument about polarization in American politics coming from the bottom up?
Good afternoon Marc and Jonathon and Henry as well.
Marc & Jonathon, I have not had an opportunity to read your book but do have a question, based on Henry’s intro.
Is the authoritarian strain in US politics really all that new? I base this question on having grown up in the ’5-s & ’60s, and witnessing the establishment response to everything from civil rights protests, anti-war protest, and young people wearing their hair longer.
It just seems like it is one long thread of fear of change driving most of the resistance
Thanks Henry, and welcome Marc.
Glenn Greenwald has written extensively about increasing authoritarianism within the Democratic party/blogosphere. Is that something you’ve noticed? Is it a function of being in power?
Hi Knoxville,
What we mean by that is that we measure with a set of survey measures about their parenting preferences (do you want your children to be independent or respect their elders, e.g.) each person’s level of authoritarianism. Then we show that these authoritarian or non-authoritarian worldviews are strongly related to people’s preferences on a ton of political issues. Indeed these political issues have been made so salient by political office holders and candidates that these worldviews now help us understand whether people are Republicans or Democrats. So, by choosing to make these issues important, the process is kind of top down. But, now that the dividing line is in place, it makes it hard for political elites to make adjustments, so it is starting to be more bottom up.
Totalitarianism vs. resistance I think has been a recurring theme from the 18th to the 20th-century century.
But the issue seems to be more one of how individuals in a society think in dualistic and authoritarian terms.
Hi Jane. The phenomenon that you and Glenn describe is not really consistent with our understanding of authoritarianism, although I think it is really inteersting. For us, authoritarianism is centrally about a need for order and relying on things that will provide that like established traditions and staying tough against our enemies. Now it is no doubt true that liberals are very likely to follow their leaders these days, which is one important understanding of authoritarian behavior. But it is not because of a need for order. Their followership is important, but animated by something different. Our work more speaks to the right than the left.
If I can jump in on Jane’s question, Marc and Jonathan see decreasing authoritarianism among Democratic party supporters, because many of the Democratic authoritarians have been tempted away by the Republicans. This, of course, has nothing to say about whether or not Democratic leaders are more or less authoritarian than they used to be. My best guess is that they are less authoritarian than they once were (say, for example, Kennedy’s use of the missile gap issue), but still often quite authoritarian in the sense that they buy into a certain conception of national security that would appeal to authoritarians.
It’s a good question. Surely the strain is not new. What is new, I think, is the degree to which the process of sorting out of authoritarians and non-authoritarians into separate political homes is driving not only political conflict, but policy conflict as well. There are many ways in which Richard Nixon’s approach to politics would strike people as authoritarian, including his pursuit of a race-based electoral strategy. But there seemed to be a clear distinction between how he waged political combat and his policy agenda. I think this line has blurred significantly in recent years.
I think you are right in many ways. But the thing that makes authoritarianism unique in this time is that it divides Republicans and Democrats in a way that it never has before. In Kennedy’s time, for instance, there were lots of racist southern Democrats and working class Democrats that SM Lipset described as being authoritarian in their disposition. That part of the Democratic party has been moving over the last several decades because of the rise of issues like race, feminism, gay rights, capital punishment, and the like. The Democrats have, at the same time, been attracting a more non-authoritarian group of followers.
I agree with you, Henry. I would add that regardless of whether Democratic leaders really do favor a militaristic approach to our security, popular perceptions don’t see it that way. That John Kerry ran in 2004 arguing for more troops in Iraq than President Bush had sent seemed irrelevant to the general perception that he was more dovish than Bush. I think that speaks to the degree to which folks are responding to leaders based on more visceral sorts of cues, rather than their concrete policy positions.
So you’re saying that some individuals have a predisposition to think in authoritarian terms, that politicians have tried to use this predisposition, and that it has become increasingly difficult for politicians to control, I mean lead, such people or effect sound policies because such people keep pushing them further to the extreme?
That seems to be exactly what we’re seeing with the teabagging people and their once-and-not-so-future leaders!
Henry, you raised a really good point in your comments about the 2008 election, which Jonathan and I thought about a good bit. We didn’t have the data in at the time we wrote the post-script. It turns out that the effects of authoritarianism remained very powerful in the 2008 general, according to data that we now have – about as potent as in 2004. Still it’s important to remember that as far advanced as we think this new cleavage is, it certainly doesn’t account for ALL voting behavior or political attitudes. So, surely there will be, for example, authoritarian-minded voters who might, for economic reasons, have voted for change. It could well be that a lot of those voters very quickly regretted their choice. Some of that may be because, as Henry suggests, Obama’s economic policies have not directly tackled the sorts of concerns that would most affect working class voters. And some of that regret might be animated by the sorts of antipathies we describe. The data that we now have suggest, though, what we thought might be going on. Namely, non-authoritarians really were attracted by Obama even if the economic climate might have made authoritarians less likely to vote Republican than in elections past. This is important, too.
Sorry, you meant resistance to change! When I heard “authoritarianism,” I think about something more like totalitarianism and “resistance” immediately means something different in my mind than what you meant.
This discussion is meant to change that thinking of mine!
Yes, Knoxville. This is exactly our thinking. In Chapter 8 of the book we talk about immigration in much the same way. In 1992, non-whites made up about 13 percent of the electorate. Mostly due to the increase in Hispanics, that percentage was about 26 percent in 2008. And yet Republicans could not move to the left on the issue, which would have been politically smart, but moved to the right instead, which, in the long run, is suicide. But they are stuck with this authoritarian base that demands their attention and hard right position on issues like this.
Precisely. This process is elite-driven at the start – not that GOP elites, for example, are trying to attract authoritarians. They’re just trying to win elections. But they find a set of issue appeals that seems to work, especially in drawing white working class voters away from the Democratic Party and, over time, it happens that the issues the GOP appeals to are authoritarian ones, prompting a further sorting out which, in turn, creates a base that eventually drives the issue agenda, leadership selection and so on of the party.
Thanks for coming gentlemen. How do you account for the authoritarian right rallying behind what seems to be a disregard for the law, the Bill of Rights, Constitution, etc.? Or is law not a part of their belief system?
Who determines who the authority figures are that the authoritarians follow. General Petreus was presented as the authority figure for all things military but now with the announcement of trials in NY, many of the repubs are saying how horrible despite Petraeus.
Knoxville’s comment brings up one my questions implicitly – how do your arguments account for the teabaggers, and their focus on economic issues?
Have you and/or Professor Hetherington thought about this in terms of Nietzsche’s distinction between Good vs. Bad, on the one hand, and Good vs. Evil, on the other?
HI Emerson
Our findings do show that, in general, authoritarians are more likely to prefer safety and security over civil liberties. I wouldn’t say law is outside their belief system. But I do think they are likely to jettison it more quickly if they think it means compromising safety.
This is a key point, Emerson. The reason as we see it is because it maximizes safety, which is a pretty concrete and attractive thing. Civil liberties are not particularly concrete and things that authoritarians are all too happy to trade for safety and security. I should add, however, that they’ll be much more enthusiastic about it if the president is one who they view as a “proper authority”. So, when Bush is in charge, the more authoritarian are going to be fine with it. Their enthusiasm might not be as great with Obama as president.
I’d like to push Henry’s challenge about economics further.
I didn’t finish the entire book, but in discussions of security early on, you don’t deal with economic security at all. How is it possible that people motivated by a decline in security would not be equally motivated by a decline in their economic security (or their environmental security, but I realize there are less data for this issue).
I’m a big fan of Bob Altemeyer’s – The Authoritarians book. John Dean was especially enamored with his work as he quoted Altemeyer’s work in his book Conservatives Without Conscience. It has helped me understand the right wing authoritarian mind set.
I look at who promotes and drives the RWA mindset and I see it comes from right wing think thanks and right wing talk and cable hosts.
Clearly someone is benefiting from these views winning the day.
Do you have any suggestions on how to demonstrate that RWA views have been hurting the country?
.
Indeed, I remember George W. Bush trying to move “left,” but being unable to because of the type of base he had courted to from the beginning of his presidential candidacy.
We have found this point really interesting, Henry. It was not something we entirely expected. We emphasize in the book the distinction between what we call authoritarian and non-authoritarian issues. But we both started to note, even during the 2008 campaign, the degree to which the cleavage that had opened up around cognition and worldview might be subsuming issues not formerly structured by authoritarianism. So, for example, environmental concerns have long been a cross-cutting policy realm. But in 2008, especially after Sarah Palin joined the ticket, a very complicated debate about energy independence got reduced to “drill, baby, drill.” And in 2009, I think we may be seeing that process extended into other areas – this is how health care reform gets framed around things like “death panels” and Stalinism and race. It’s also worth noting that racial attitudes, as you mention, do appear to increasingly structure social policy attitudes, as we’ve addressed elsewhere, including in the Washington Post. Of course, racial attitudes are an important line of distinction between the more and less authoritarian.
But isn’t it true that the national parties are both authoritarian and differ only in degree, while the participants in either party vary far more in type as well as degree?
I live in Denver and was horrified at the security apparatus that mobilized and brooked zero tolerance for dissent, not to mention the telcom industry (authoritarian) sponsorship, etc.
Seemed pretty damn authoritarian to me! :)
This seems to be a chicken and egg issue.
The debate about whether this is an elite-driven issue or popular leaves aside the question whether Republicans have, since the 1970s, created limited kinds of insecurity and then capitalized on it.
It’s not like Karl Rove, for example, is really an authoritarian himself. Rather he and his emphasized certain issues in certain terms.
Is it that people are really authoritarians, or Republicans are better at managing the message?
I think this point is a good one, emptywheel. One thing to consider is how the party on the right on the safety and security and diversity issues proposes providing economic security. It is through the hidden hand of the market, which is probably not all that satisfying for those who favor clear solutions to problems. So with the parties not really articulating solutions that would clearly appeal along these lines, economic issues don’t seem to manifest int eh same way.
I’d also love to see you address George Lakoff’s writing.
So much of this is parallel to Lakoff’s schema. With him, as with this book, I was never convinced that the issue isn’t the message itself, but the efficacy in dominating messaging. Both you and Lakoff seem to assume the daddy-mommy dichotomy cannot be challenged. But I’m not sure I’m convinced by that.
Unfortunately, I can’t stay for this Book Salon, but am currently reading ‘Republican Gomorrah‘, and found John Dean’s “Conservatives Without Conscience” invaluable.
I’ve been to the Amazon site and checked a bit about this title and have it on order through my local bookseller, because it looks really useful in thinking about the dynamics of what is happening today.
Politics is a human enterprise, and in times of such rapid social change, when people (including myself) really have zero control over large corporations, over large financial structures, and even over bad decisions of local governments, it really can be frustrating.
Part of my background is in learning and education.
Some years ago, I spent time working with adults who were going through re-training post-9/11.
Quite a few of them had serious learning disabilities (particularly for reading and processing complex information). I have to add that they were (mostly!) quite good-hearted, and had many fine traits, but their political views were quite shocking to me — anything not distilled to a sound-bite is more than they will pay attention to, and they were ripe for being exploited by anyone offering them simplistic, short-term, flattering pseudo-explanations of ‘what’s wrong with the world’.
Because they avoid written information — too frustrating for them — they are extremely vulnerable, IMVHO, to communication that comes by radio, or by teevee. (At that time, they assumed that **anything** on the Internet was ‘true’, so were also sitting ducks for disinformation online.)
So my questions are more related to the following:
1. Did your analysis look at ‘learning styles’ or cognitive styles?
2. Did you sort your ‘voters’ by the TYPE of media they consume (not simply MSNBC/Fox, but rather the TYPE of media: written, auditory, visual)?
3. Have you considered working with any Educational Psychologists, or have you been able to cross-index the political views with any patterns of information-seeking, or information-consumption?
Thanks in advance for any feedback – I’ll have to check any responses this evening, but thanks for being here and this book looks quite interesting.
Right on. And, being from Texas, Bush understood the party’s need to do this better than most. Other Republicans are too slow to get it, which is killing them among the fastest growing minority population.
HI Marcy
Two points. One, just in terms of the data, there is no clear relationship between being authoritarian-minded (or the opposite) and holding a particular set of economic policy preferences. Two, I think the reason for one is that authoritarian concerns, per Marc’s comment #25, seem to run to more concrete, visceral fears about bodily safety. Marc’s even got some pretty interesting data on authoritarians’ preference for big cars over small ones in this context. It may be that authoritarians regard such concerns as more abstract or, like many Americans, they have internalized the long-standing American ethos about economic concerns being the responsibility of individuals, except when economic well-being seems to be threatened by outgroups, as the immigration issue clearly raises.
But I’d go back to the teabagger question.
For obvious authoritarians (in your use of the term) the teabaggers advocate policies that would increase insecurity. I understand how that works form a populist perspective.
But it is not true that this debate hasn’t been engaged in the last 20 years. Republicans (and some Democrats) have been pushing insecurity and change. So why hasn’t there been a backlash against this, rather than just cognitive dissonance, if that’s what it is?
Great questions, ROTL.
I think the point here is that parties do establish platforms, but that their leaders can’t always control the base and that the base sometimes drags the leaders to an unproductive extreme.
Think of it this way, are we always seeing Republican leaders using a simplistic right vs. wrong worldview to manipulate their base, or do we sometimes see the people who make up the base, whose worldview can sometimes be just simplistic right vs. wrong, cause Republican leaders to cave to the base and conform to their simplistic, authoritarian views?
Eg., seemed like such a good idea to go after Clinton for the Lewinski affair in the ’90s, but how has that been working out for Republicans since?
We don’t really speak to this issue, although it is interesting to consider. We view the raising of these issues and the gathering of this base as a political calculation designed to win elections. We are just dealing with the end game of it now. The 2008 election seemed to suggest that the public was concerned enough about this direction’s governance to go so far as to elect an African-American president with the middle name of Hussein. Pretty stunning when you think about the level of dissatisfaction that implies.
ran to a wifi just to watch this discussion, this book addresses the fundamental problems with our political structure as it stands today
I believe we can cast some or most of the blame on “the koch industsries”, these brothers began their epic mission to gain ownership of the very discussion, buying right wing “pundits” and even creating their own, and with those media personality they create they repeat, wash, repeat again their fantasy told as if those fantasys are facts
they’ve prefected the technique, “say it often enough and it becomes a reasonable opinion”
this is a trick which works, where corporate media gets to call themselves “liberal media” and it becomes almost impossible proving to anyone the media is corporate owned with a corporate agenda
and then there’s rove who (while not even close to a genious) mastered the technique of pitting the ignorant against everyone in “the other party
Al Qaeda is a more visceral fear than lack of health care and retirement?
I don’t buy that–sorry. Where I live, economic fears are very visceral.
Welcome to the authors. I cited an article you wrote (for the Democratic Strategist) in a post of mine here three years ago.
In that post, I offered the suggestion that Democrats could steer voters away from the GOP’s authoritarian appeals by rhetorically positioning their own beliefs as stemming from “traditional, time-honored, simple, common-sense understandings of the world” (e.g., that policies to address joblessness and access to health care are common-sense problem solving rather than grandiose schemes). Do you think there is any merit to this, and/or that Obama has tried to do this?
By the way, with regard to the 2008 election, I would suggest that when the financial crisis hit just before the presidential debates in September, Obama successfully presented himself as the steadier leader more likely to restore order (simply through his personality), while McCain came across as erratic and unpredictable — and thus less appealing to authoritarian-leaning voters.
I think the key point is that the Democrats and Republicans have not offered particularly clear choices on economic issues over the last twenty years. That is in stark contrast to issues like race, immigration, gay rights, military intervention, and the like.
I’d like to edit that if I may;
“convinces the ignorant politics are black and white…etc”
Just joining and welcome!
Loved the intro and have to skim the thread. I love this stuff.
I am an intuiter/feeler according to Myers Briggs and I think the personality temperament stuff lends itself to being authoritarian vs. non-authoritarianism, too. But nature and nurture, too. If you get traumatized by pedagoguey growing up you are primed as you say, like 9/11 primed, the non-authoritarians to give up some individual will. Read a lot by Alice Miller about what happened in Germany with Hitler.
Scott Peck once said, “If you are a follower, you are not a whole person.”
Re Hillary Clinton and her authoritarianism in the election, great insight, and also poor Hillary had to overcompensate to fight the weak (a/k/a empathetic) female image so Edwards and Obama could be more humanist and Hillary had to work at convincing the more chauvinistic powerplays she was tough.
Did you use Bob Altmeyer’s research?
Marc and John – I am wondering whether you could go a bit further, and look to some of the work on the changing relationship between welfare and race. To what extent is what we are seeing with the teabaggers a sense that ‘we’ are not getting what we deserve for our hard work, and ‘they’ – African Americans, weird cosmopolitans, Acorn activists etc are winning out big? This seems to me to in part tap into authoritarianism (a sense that ‘we’ are under siege from ethnically diverse others) but also into a more general set of values and beliefs about fairness and economic outcomes. I say this of course, as an impertinent IR scholar, not an Americanist …
That doesn’t explain the difference to me as regards Democrats though.
Most I know and read and participate with are far less authoritarian appearing to me than the National Party and some candidates are.
For instance Creigh Deed’s campaign comes to mind.
Good questions. Our focus, driven by the data we had available, was on cognitive styles. We discussed many times the impact that particular kinds of media, especially right-wing talk radio, was likely to have had on the cleavage we describe and hope to pursue this angle – particular types of information consumption – going forward.
Briefly, I should also add that the majority of the people that I reference in my comment were unsure about their future employment prospects and scared sh*tless about what was going to happen to them economically.
So they were mighty anxious, and incredibly alienated by government at all levels.
Incredibly distrustful people who appeared to feel pretty powerless about their own personal prospects moving forward in an era when big industries have outsourced so many formerly ‘family wage’ jobs — these people have very little chance of ending up as ‘white collar’ employees because they lack the linguistic skills for most ‘white collar positions’.
(Just in case I am misunderstood, I need to point out that I recognize many ‘blue collar’ employees are able to read, synthesize, and present written information very well, but prefer employment that uses their mechanical, spatial, or ‘hands on’ skills. So I don’t mean to imply that people with poor reading skills end up in blue collar jobs — that’s not true. But for people with weak linguistic skills, ‘white collar’ work is really not going to be where they flourish. And they’re not going to read a blog, nor will they read information in a report or study — so politicians who talk about ‘a report’ only alienate these people.)
I think there is some merit to this approach, Swopa. But one thing to keep in mind is that the base of supporters that the Democrats are attracting are increasingly concerned about terms like “tradition” and “time honored”, which will make them less likely to say these things. So, while it might be a very smart approach, it also might be increasingly difficult for them to do. Obama’s willingness to do so, however, certainly helped him.
Also, re Eckhart Tolle who writes about collective ego, he says that during Viet Nam crisis the anti-war people went after the collective self image or ego of America about how America is always right all the time and that was a really profound division in the consciousness of the country. I think that is happening now.
that was a great post swopa, a comment
that’s true
I’ve actually converted some of those who were vulnerable to the “authoritarian technique” by pointing out the fact that that’s what the party is doing
while there are people that need the authoritarian view to conduct their lives, they are not willing to face that fact and when it’s pointed out to them they actually do start challenging their party for those very reasons
As for personality, I think openness to new experience is now an increasingly important distinction between partisans, whereas it was not before.
Which party is the ultimate winner, the authoritarian Rs or the nonauthoritarian Ds? My guess would be the former, since the bulk of americans want to obey some strong person. It’s so much easier than thinking for yourself.
Also, any idea how the U.S. compares with other developed countries on the authoritarian scale?
Hence the “he isn’t a natural born citizen” line of “reasoning” that is running in the RWA circles. Anything that diminishes his authority will be seized upon.
If I’m correct a lot of the early research down on Authoritarianism was because of the desire to understand how the German people would follow a leader into committing acts of violence and depravity. If you look at how the RWA in the Bush administration got away with torturing people to death and how this was supported by the right-wing media and a significant portion of Americans I see this as an explanation. The “Good American” who
torturedinterrogated aprisonerdetainee is cast as a hero not a monster.Regarding the Tea Partiers, I have been working recently to inject in the corporate financial world the financial fall out of supporting these tea partiers because they are inciting violence. It is only a matter of time till someone is shot AT a rally. “Fox News Pays Price for Sponsoring Tea Parties” is the headline I’d like to see after a shooting. Are their any other ways to penalize the rw media for cravenly using their power to hurt others?
No doubt. We have gathered some helpful data that shows the racialization of the health care debate, just like there was a racialization of the welfare debate for decades. That racialization is authoritarian in character. We agree with you that this is probably the foundation for what is going on in this particular issue domain.
I don’t mean to say that one set of fears is more valid than another, and I personally find economic fears, like the loss of health insurance, far more immediately threatening than I do Al Qaeda. But I am equally convinced that many people see this differently – that what Al Qaeda represents is the prospect of imminent death for people of a certain disposition.
Incidentally, a quote from the authors’ 2006 Democratic Strategist article that may bear on 2008:
The fact of Obama being black seemed to make the GOP very hesitant about making “appeals to concerns about difference” — and to the extent they did so, may have such appeals come across more explicitly than intended.
Our work shows some interesting patterns as to who benefits. It turns out that it depends on how much threat or fear people are feeling. When people are terrified, as after 9/11, those with authoritarianism scores in the middle tend to slide their preferences to the right. But, when fear ebbs, their opinions tend to slide int he other direction, in favor of the Democrats. It is these middle folks who are giong to help us understand who wins and who loses. Hence liberals have to make people feel like they are safe. Conservatives have to make people feel like they are threatened. That is the battle.
Since you bring up psychology, I’d like to mention something about Jungian notions of consciousness that might reveal something about psychical processes that possibly give rise to the type of authoritarian thinking that we’re talking about here.
From what we have learned about the way human being have experienced consciousness for the past 5000-3000 years, Jung’s arguments about what happens to psychic contents the moment they go from the unconscious levels of our minds to the level of consciousness does seem relevant.
According to Jung – or at least some of his heirs – the moment contents emerge into consciousness, they split into two, into opposites, into a dichotomy either, to borrow Nietzsche’s terms, like Good vs. Evil or Good vs. Bad.
That is very consistent with our thinking, although it is still remarkable that Obama, even with this “advantage”, was able to pull off what he did.
Interesting what just happened in NYC. Bloomberg was respected generally by the majority but his authoritarian hubris to extend term limits for himself and doing his backroom flexing almost cost him the election if he had had stronger competition.
I think he got a taste of the anti-authoritarian anger from liberal-leaning NY.
There is also cronyism that leads to authoritarian following. The pressure to go with leadership. Look at grid-locked Congress.
The press called Grayson an iconoclast after his angry blast about 45,000 deaths. That was enough to have him get that label, though Grayson seems to be team playing with the Dem leadership sadly now.
And the media whips up emotional loyalty in people and is not at all reliable to tell the truth.
Regarding the Tea Partiers, I have been working recently to inject in the corporate financial world the financial fall out of supporting these tea partiers because they are inciting violence. It is only a matter of time till someone is shot AT a rally. “Fox News Pays Price for Sponsoring Tea Parties” is the headline I’d like to see after a shooting. Are their any other ways to penalize the rw media for cravenly using their power to hurt others?
Not that I am aware of, Spocko, but I do find it terrifying. The number of threats against the president’s life is apparently off the charts these days.
On your previous point, you are right; that is exactly the motivation for the earlier research.
this makes sense
then there would be those who might granulate that dichotomy, some people create for themselves the scenario where each point of view might be correct, then evaluate which would be more correct then the other
or
a tri-chotomy
To take up another of the questions that I posed – what do you think of authoritarianism in the blogosphere? John Sides, Eric Lawrence and I wanted to do some work on authoritarian attitudes among blog readers, but sadly there isn’t enough crossover between the authoritarianism questions and the blog reading questions in the Polimetrix survey to come up with meaningful results …
Just to be clear, the first two paragraphs of that replay were not from me but quoted from the author of the post I was responding to.
I’d noticed. One (unnamed) R candidate’s campaign was characterized by: noun-verb-9/11, and the very same person thinks its a terrible threat to hold terrorist trials in Manhattan (whereas in reality, it’s a great boon to the prosecution).
What about the empathy factor with authoritarians vs. non-authoritarians. Stress makes people narcissistic. 9/11 promoted xenophobia and bloodlust. And that fear that if government helps all of us it is not fair … that someone else will get something that I deserve more … so better none of us gets it. That kind of thinking.
As a general matter, one way that Marc and I have thought about the divide we describe is that it has been born, to some degree, of a kind of post-materialism. Income inequality has, of course, sky-rocketed over the past thirty odd years, but this has been mitigated to some degree by the extraordinary expansion of credit and the consumer consumption that has fueled. In that context, I think a political divide not primarily rooted in class politics could have opened up. But with the end of that credit-fueled band-aid, we might certainly see another shift in the coming years. This authoritarianism-based divide, though I do believe is rooted in real, deeply-held cognitive and other differences, is not set in stone. It can, of course, change, though not easily.
Yeah, I thought the venue thing would be challenged about the trial in NYC by the defense because of the “prejudicial” factor, is it. The emotionalism here?
I’m not so sure I agree.
Republicans tend to do things behind closed doors. That always gave me the impression that they were more totalitarian in their approach. This discussion has me thinking more about the role of authoritarian thinking among the people of the Republican base having control over the leadership.
Democrats are much more open in their deliberations. We see more of the messes in their decision-making. We saw it during the primaries last year, when they couldn’t decide what to do about Michigan and Florida delegates, or one example.
I’m reminded of what Katrina vanden Heuvel says: Agitate, then organize.
I am not sure, Henry, although there might be something there. There might be a relationship there on the right. But I don’t think the blogs are necessarily the stock and trade of authoritarianism. Indeed blogs seem to be more the currency of the nonauthoritarian left, which points up how people across the political spectrum like to have their opinions reinforced by people who view the world the way they do. Moreover those who score high in authoritarianism are not generally high cognition/high effort people. I am guessing that their way of getting into their own echo chamber is to do something more passive like watch TV.
What about religion as a factor?
Give this man a delicious chocolate bar!
If you look at the structure of mainstream news stories anymore you will note their need to quote “experts” on “both sides”. So it becomes a battle of who has the better experts and who knows how to position the story best. We often end up on the losing end of a story because it was set up to put us on the defensive. Frankly I’m sick of it, but when I offered my help, since I have some expertise in this area, I was ignored. Sigh.
Where are the people proactive pitching stories with our experts lined up to help? In health care debate how much was us playing defense? As Jane has noted if our experts are captive in a veal pen they can not effectively counter the other experts.
It’s not about who is right for the media it is simply, The most interesting story with the best experts “win the day” as the right wing online publication the Politico would say.
We’ve begun examining the connection between empathy and authoritarians/non-authoritarians, suspecting that there will be clear differences. We’re still waiting on those findings.
Would you like to be on the jury?
Right. This is very smart. Republicans should, on these issues, always raise the specter of threat. Trying terrorists in NYC is certainly one way to get inside people’s minds. I think we’ll see a lot of this over the next few months.
This is right on, Libby. Authoritarians are significantly less empathetic than non-authoritarians. We have just recently gathered some data to show this. But the key is what happens int he middle of the authoritarian distribution. If people aren’t feeling threatened, then they might follow their better natures. if they are, then they will almost certainly follow their basest instincts. That is the interesting thing. We all have to one degree or another an authoritarian lurking beneath the surface. The question is what conditions or circumstances will bring it out. Stress is one thing that will.
I’m coming up soon for jury duty. Had a flash thought of that. Scary but my higher self would.
How about you?
There is a strong relationship between regular religious attendance and authoritarianism and an especially strong relationship between being a self-identified evangelical and being authoritarian, which is unsurprising. Being a mainline protestant is more weakly associated with authoritarianism. Jews are, on the whole, the most non-authoritarian group we can measure.
Very sobering thoughts. Didn’t Mad Libs have a piece on Glenn Beck as an opportunist who would say anything for attention and ratings, regardless of the consequences of his rhetoric?
By the way, what responsibility do members of Congress like Rep. Michele Bachmann have for inciting the impending violence? Seriously, if I got up in front of a crowd and said some of the things she said, I think I’d be arrested? Didn’t she swear an oath?
Hmmm, seeing a lot of Democrats arguing for mo’ war in Afghanistan, increased troop strength, etc. so we don’t have to be afraid of Mr. Terror.
I think we actually opened the door to the authoritarians with our “big tent” and now we’re trying to make them cozy.
The key isn’t religion as a whole. Authoritarianism is strong in a certain approach to religion. Specifically, those who believe in Biblical inerrency are highly authoritarian. So faiths that are more fundamentalist in approach fit the bill. Not surprisingly, authoritarianis is lowest among the secular, but also among the religious who view the Bible in less literal terms.
Also, it seems on a personal one on one level, say, the Repubs are generous and compassionate, say with Ted Kennedy’s illness, or others going through health care crises that they know about up close and personal, but without that “clannishness” they can’t seem to translate that to the “common good” neediness.
Remember Nancy Reagan saying on 60 minutes a long time ago that help for people should come from volunteers, that would cover it, not regulation by govt.
Jonathan, when corporatism aligns with nationalism (or jingoism) as with the NFL and the US military, how could the non-authoritarians effectively counter what amounts to a propaganda campaign?
But what about the huge DENIAL of Israel and American Jewish people over the war crimes (imo) re Gaza. That seems authoritarian following on steroids. AIPAC is a profound authoritarian entity. Look at US House passing the resolution on Goldstone report.
Are there really a right and a left in terms of true power?
At a superficial level, sure.
At the level of real power, I don’t think so.
The game, I believe, is to distract and confuse the American people.
The evil fucks are winning that game, IMO.
That will be interesting to watch, Jane. Obama strikes Jonathan and me as the embodiment of non-authoritarianism. The endless rumination. The deliberate decision making. I suspect he will choose an alternative in Afghanistan that is significantly less muscular than the one Dick Cheney or George Bush would choose. One thing to keep in mind, too, is that there are still plenty of high authoritarians who identify as Democrats. Our chapter on the Clinton-Obama primary make that abundently clear. But there are many fewer than even ten years ago.
Jane
I think the base of the Democratic Party includes more non-authoritarians than perhaps ever before. That the leadership continues to ignore that growing segment of the party is also true.
Simple right/wrong, good/bad, good/evil oppositions are so basic to human beings that most religions that are prominent in the United States draw heavily from them.
I have a friend here in Knoxville who once told me that the leaders of her church taught the parents that they, the parents, were their childrens’ first experience with God.
Maybe the difference is between parents teaching their children to respect their elders and parents teaching their children to obey them at all times or face punishment.
Obama seems lost to the authoritarian corporate matrix to me right now. His unwillingness to challenge the athoritarian status quo shows me he is an authoritarian follower. Does not have the heart of a reformer and this country’s status quo is in desperate need of reforming.
Whatever AIPAC is, it’s highly objectionable to me personally. But I think one of the interesting things happening among American Jews is that enough are resentful to be seen as being represented by AIPAC that we’re actually seeing, for the first time, alternatives that (lord willing) will break the AIPAC monopoly on presumptive representation of American Jews when it comes to Israel. J-Street comes most immediately to mind.
I think think this is politics, Knoxville, at least for some people. You do what you can to win. And I also think that high scoring authoritarians really believe the things they feel and say. They are scared to death. They won’t even let their kids be shown an address to school students about personal responsibility and working hard. I imagine Michelle Bachman is in this camp.
I hope so. With the war crimes and the fierce denial and the collusion of Congress and codependency of Obama and the political establishment it seems coming to a head. I don’t have your hopefulness. But I am glad AIPAC is not a secret spectre so much, any more.
I think the distinction, at least since Eikenberry’s leak, has shifted away from debates about troops numbers and has become a debate between those who want to rush in w/o a decent plan (Dick Cheney and the neocons) and those who want to achieve clear goals according to a well-thought-out plan with clearly identified exits (Obama and company). So far, I can live with what President Obama’s doing.
Yep, and now they’re trying to highjack the party and all its constituents. Too high a price!
I should modify my enthusiasm – I am not especially hopeful either, actually. But at least it’s something we haven’t seen before.
Exactly. Up 400 percent over previous Presidents.
Following a shooting there is the right wing rush to position the shooting and to politicize by saying, “Don’t Politicize this!”
Are RW authoritarians more apt to be violent? Especially if they feel they are fighting a non-legit authority figure (Where’s the Birth Certificate?)
After the Fort Hood shooting, they will ignore the other shootings from right wing extremists that happened in Tenn and Philadelphia They want to avoid the focus on the right wing gun toting people and move to “Muslims!”
Maybe. Or maybe dealing with the most powerful and entrenched interests in American public life is more difficult than we wished it was. I imagine you would also favor a single payer health care system. I think something along those lines would be the most efficient alternative. But you couldn’t get more than 30 votes in the Senate for it, so what is the point. In politics, you sometimes have to take what you can get and battle for more later on.
One effect that occurs to me as an international relations scholar rather than a specialist in American politics is the extent to which different manifestations of authoritarianism may be mutually reinforcing on the international level. I don’t know whether there is much comparative work in the recent past on authoritarianism in different countries, but I also imagine that it would be startling if, say, supporters of Al Qaeda and the Taliban were not authoritarians who believe in inerrant texts, black and white moralities etc. But of course, it makes it easier for Al Qaeda to recruit people to their cause when they can use the ‘threat’ of a US foreign policy driven by authoritarianism, just as US authoritarian politicians can use Al Qaeda as a threat to rally people to their cause …
Yes. And we are discussing it now. Sometimes I google an article link about Israel or the Palestinians and there is a message it has been removed. This makes me really uneasy and suspicious. I think Israel from its tragic history could have developed a kind of “border line” personality, that if you are not 100% conveniently on my side, you are my enemy. We need some “tough love” for that ally, not codependent enabling. God, it would change the whole course of world affairs and make us trustworthy with Muslim nations.
Instead we are like the friend you know, some friends help you move, others help you move bodies. We are like that with Israel. We should not be. Self-destructive cronyism. Authoritarian following cronyism. We are like a colony to Israel it feels like re our military agenda with the corporatists making things even worse.
If a president wasn’t seen as legitimate, I imagine pretty much everyone would be more apt to violence. The thing that makes high authoritarians distictive is that they are the most likely to believe Obama was born in Kenya and is the anti-Christ. Worse, they are the least likely to update their opinions on such things, even in the face of clear evidence contrary to their beliefs.
Or as the historian Eric Rauchway put it in bumper sticker form back in 2008, “Vote Obama: Be Disappointed by Somebody New”
I’ve got my problems with President Obama, particularly with his failure to push harder in the debate for health care reform, but…
You don’t think that his deliberations regarding an Afghanistan plan, including his recent rejection of all four plans for Afghanistan that have been presented to him and his insistence that he will accept no plan that does not include a good exit strategy, shows that he’s willing to buck the Military Industrial Complex?
And ignore an exploration of the tragic reality with our present military. The desertions, the suicides, the domestic violence, the addictions, the acoholism, the PTSDs, the insane number of redeployments.
Fort Hood was about the pscyhological breakdown of a Muslim soldier. Should have seen that coming.
But lets bang the drum and make him part of a sleeper cell so we don’t have to introvert about the amoral insanity of what is happening in our military and our foreign policy. Where the faux rotten apples at the bottom of the food chain get nailed and no accountability for the Rumsfelds, the Roves, the Cheneys, the Rices, the Powells, the Tenets, etc.
This is a great point, Henry. One of the real problems that we’ve had in comparing levels of authoritarianism abroad with those in the US is the survey questions we use. They are going to mean different things in different cultures. Indeed, even the parenting values battery that we use in the US seems to mean different things to whites than it does minority groups. It also means different things to young people (who mostly don’t have kids) than it does to parents of children.
but you general point I think is right. The key is to think conceptually. Where people seem to have an overarching and overwhelming need for order, I think we are talking about authoritarians. or, maybe people who are under an awful lot of stress, which is causing them to want these things.
I agree, Henry. And beyond using threat, surely presenting a clear, simple, black and white understanding of how the world and how it should be would be profoundly appealing to certain people. In some of his earlier work, Altmeyer gathered surveys from Russia and found that Communists there were strongly authoritarian. Not surprising, but noteworthy.
Obama if anything has a political will. Not a moral one, sadly. I don’t see strong signs of it.
I think he will muck around in the middle and not make a clean decision re the military. that is not bucking military thinking. That is watching closely what he can get by with. Placation. Put some rhetoric in there for the other side to enjoy a Lucy and the football moment of hope. But will leave both sides chewing on their fists but keeping Obama someone who at some future point “might” come through. I think he may play that for 4 long years. Window of opportunity. And he is not using it.
So, is there any hope that President Obama will feel pressure from people like us to accomplish more? In other words, are people who have a non-authoritarian worldview just as likely to have any measure of success in pushing people in authority to effect real change?
It could be there are different factions among the military industrial complex battling for his ear.
Do you write about Rush and Glenn Beck and their authoritarianism and followers specifically? The shock jocks.
I read about the ego states from Eric Berne. The parent, the adult and the child ego states we all shift within.
Now the child ego state has different levels, the natural child, the adapted child. But there is also one called the “pig parent” according to Berne. And the pig parent mimics the tone of the parent ego state and people become enthralled to that “pig parent” ego state and take it to be a secure parent ego state. I think Rush goes into pig parent. Bush did. McCain did. That kind of enthralldom when people are afraid of the unpredictability of someone and go into fear mode and admiration mode, too, for something free and childlike primitive about them.
As the authors note, the underlying motive behind the strong-daddy mentality is a desire for order. If you show that the “strong daddy” doesn’t bring order (in part because the guy pretending to be the strong daddy is actually the irresponsible, blustering alcoholic daddy who puts his family in danger), you can open people up to a different way of thinking.
See, for example, the collapse of Dubya’s poll ratings on terrorism after hurricane Katrina. Or, as noted above, Obama’s ability to project calm and self-confidence in contrast to McCain’s erratic response to the financial crisis last fall.
Did I miss your answer about being on the jury in NYC?
Jonathan and I were just talking and it seems like there is one thing we might clarify. It is consistent with one of the last points in Henry’s discussion of the book about whether authoritarians are completely rigid and normatively “bad”. We really work hard to avoid such characterizations. Although we might not agree with them, people have all sorts of different opinions.
In any empirical work, a certain amount of generalization takes place. But we were pretty careful to point out where authoritarians tend to show authoritarians do have the ability to change. Henry cites one really good example on gays in the military. Another is anti-Semitism. It used to be that those scoring high in authoritarianism really disliked Jews. Now that Jews are more accepted in American life, that is no longer the case. We suspect the same might be true of other groups.
Jonathan adding the following observations over email. “In addition, in none of our findings do 100% of authoritarians think the same way, just as in none of our findings do 100% of non-authoritarians think the same way. Of course we are talking about people – who are complex and contradictory combinations of all sorts of beliefs and impulses on all sides. I think the more interesting question is what kinds of politics do particular worldviews yield? Look at the iconic representatives of the right, the folks who clearly speak for the movement and worldview that we describe and generate the most excitement – Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity, Bachman, Palin. Most normal people are not caricatures the way these folks are, but their immense popularity among a significant segment of the population must say something profound, mustn’t it, about the resonance of a particular style of argumentation, a particular use of facts, a particular way of dividing the world into us and them, with a significant segment of the population? No one is really Glenn Beck all the time – I suspect even Glenn Beck isn’t when he goes home at the end of the day. But is there enough of what we describe to give a particular politics a powerful foothold in our politics? We think so.”
It’s probably worth pointing out that when we say Obama is, in some important respects, the embodiment of non-authoritarianism, it doesn’t mean that he is a determinedly liberal guy, or that folks on the political left won’t find much of what he’s done so far frustrating or downright objectionable. We’re really speaking about a cognitive style, a particular way of framing and talking about issues combined that will appeal especially to a particular segment of the population. Because liberals – in general – have positive associations with non-authoritarianism, it can sound like labeling someone as non-authoritarian or as especially appealing to non-authoritarianism is a straight-up endorsement. Of course, authoritarians will view that label completely differently. But our argument is about the people that political parties and leaders appeal to more than it is about the leaders themselves.
I was talking to a law professor the other day about this exact topic because I wanted him to help me to best link Fox News (and NewsCorp) to the tea parties after violence occurred. He rejected any suggestions that criminal charges would be filed because he didn’t think anyone would be so stupid as to say, “go kill ‘em” at an event (I pointed out that I have exactly that kind of language from some talk radio hosts) but it occurred to me that the lawyer was working overtime to PROTECT Fox (Bachmann etc.) from any kind of price because he positioned what they were doing in the area of “free speech”. I countered with “corporate sponsored speech” on talk radio or Fox is different.
We then moved to costs of civil damages which might make sense to put some fear into the stockholders. Tea Party express II is traveling cross country who is paying for police? Giving the stories of increasing violence at faux town halls are the insurance companies covering wrongful death of a lower level politician at a town hall? Or will you go with the lone wacko theory again?
The person responsible for the violence is of course part of the decision, I want to show link between a corporation that decides to use their control of their authoritarian followers to incite violence. Are there links? What do they look like?
I asked the NewsCorp financial analysts to ask this question of Rupert: “Have you financially prepared for a politician getting shot at a Fox organized event? Why or why not? What have you done to tone down Glenn Beck? If you haven’t told him to tone it down does that mean you agree?”
“Pig Parent” child ego state they come from. Very high drama.
Re evangelicals and Zionists linking up. There is something dangerous there, in terms of the anti-Muslim stance of this country. Not a marriage made in heaven for the planet, this good will, in some cases.
We wrote very little about talk radio because it is so hard to get a read on what people’s true media consumption habits are. We suspect that some of the folks you identified are very much part of at least reinforcing the worldviews that we talk about in the book. But it is important to note that it is not just the right we are talking about. For this authoritarian-nonauthoritarian cleavage to take hold, it took those on the left becoming really angry about those on the right, too. So, for example, nonauthoritarians rate “Christian Fundamentalists” less positively than authoritarians rate “Gays and Lesbians”. In fact, the difference is quite large.
Your work does suggest though that authoritarians have fewer cognitive skills, and less ability to deal with complex and ambiguous situations. One of the interesting questions to me as a non political opinion person is the way that the cognitive aspects of individuals’ thinking, and their political attitudes intersect. Clearly, as you say, there may be some strong general associations between particular ways of thinking and particular sets of attitudes, but as Marc’s most recent post suggests, the relationship can be complicated, and can vary substantially across individuals.
But Gays and Lesbians are not trying to take the authoritarians’ rights away. Whereas Christian Fundamentalists are determined to take the rights of many non-authoritarian minorities away.
I wasn’t focusing on whether or not all their views are bad, but on their worldview of simple dichotomies – right or wrong – as being too rigid, that this simplistic set of categories is wrong, even if they sometimes arrive at views that are not.
Many of us use the term “immoral” in reference to this or that position of some leader. But that doesn’t necessary mean that we’re buying into a simplistic either/or notion of moral/immoral.
Bill Clinton once said that, when people think, they vote for Democrats; when they feel, they vote for Republicans.
Everyone thinks and feels, but his point seems to say something valid about the types of people who vote one way or another.
You’re right Henry. There is, of course, multi-dimensionality to cognition. We do say at one point that our arguments are specific to people’s political reasoning and should not be read as a larger judgment about how they might think/operate in other contexts. Elsewhere, however, we suggest otherwise, which is, um, a contradiction.
I would add though that there are circumstances where nuanced, subtle thinking might be paralyzing and, hence, quite counter-productive and what is needed is clear, decisive thinking not cluttered by alot of extraneous considerations.
Interesting. I read a pscyh book that said there are two intentions people act from. The intention to “protect” or the intention to “explore”.
I think the authoritarians operate out of the first, the non-authoritarians from the second.
I know. The point is that it takes two sides of a political debate to cause polarization. If non-authoritarians didn’t care, then there would be no friction. But they do, so there is friction. The important point is that this development is relatively recent.
Yes, but it’s pretty easy to win the debate when you debate alone before an audience of believers who don’t question if there is even another side. The first 3 examples are never opposed in their forums and seem to me to have a sedentary following. But I don’t think they’re winning over “independents.” or are they?
I think, on average, you are right. But rather than think and feel, I would say it a little different. Those who rely more on instinct on these matters tend to the right. Those who rely more on cognition on these matter tend to the left.
and there’s the thing, sometimes there is only one side, just becuase they wnat to disagree they shouldn’t have a priviledge of making believe there’s another point of view
but there it is anyway
In Bob Altemeyer’s – The Authoritarians he uses a metaphor that I LOVE to describe Right Wing Authoritarians.
2. Highly Compartmentalized Minds
As I said earlier, authoritarians’ ideas are poorly integrated with one another. It’s as if each idea is stored in a file that can be called up and used when the authoritarian wishes, even though another of his ideas–stored in a different file–basically contradicts it. We all have some inconsistencies in our thinking, but authoritarians can stupify you with the inconsistency of their ideas. Thus they may say they are proud to live in a country that guarantees freedom of speech, but another file holds, “My country, love it or leave it.” The ideas were copied from trusted sources, often as sayings, but the authoritarian has never “merged files” to see how well they all fit together.
My mother is a RWA and is a very loving individual. She also will make these kind of contradictory statements. I didn’t understand how she could do it until I read this.
You’ve done a lot of very commendable thinking about this issue of authoritarian type people committing acts of violence.
Your questions for Rupert go straight to the mark!
I am not sure this style is a winning one for the right. I don’t think a lot of independents and moderates spend a ton of time listening to these folks. Hence they are reinforcing rather than increasing their following. And, as the nation’s diversity increases, they are really putting themselves in a tremendous hole.
And trial cases are celebrated by the media as sports events. It wasn’t about guilt or innocence. It was the gamesmanship of the attorneys. Look at OJ Simpson trial that turned our media into sharks after one story instead of covering news, it became choosing and obsessing over titillating spectacle.
Exactly. For me, this kind of thing has been what has made me enjoy studying this stuff but also frustrated. I want to figure out where authoritarianism and nonauthoritarianism emanate from. But, given the complexities, it is hard to figure.
Spocko
That quote from Altemeyer stood out to me as well. We talk about “accuracy motivation” (it’s not our term) in describing differences between A’s and non-A’s – the former seem to care more, in general, about finding information sources that affirm their predispositions. It’s not that the latter don’t do this, but they do tend to think more critically even about the sources they rely upon.
Are you familiar with MacLean’s theory of the triune brain – the R-complex, the limbic system, and the neocortex – and the functions of each part?
Instinct vs. cognition, or maybe as libbyliberal put it @ 124: the intention to “protect” vs. the intention to “explore.”
how interesting. compartmentalization. I think this is probably reinforced in many, these slogans and ideas to live by, by cronyism either with church group or family. A group think that doesn’t challenge the contradictions.
Obama certainly becoming President freaked out so many right wingers I keep getting surprised by the intense fury of people. He challenged their belief that a black man should not be president. They can’t hear him. They are so frenzied. I wish he were as liberal as they give him credit for, actually.
the limbic, is that the one they call the “lizard” brain?
Yes it is.
I think Lakoff’s work got us off to thinking in this way. But our work departs a lot from his. First off, we don’t try to explain all issues through this lens. Only issues that one would theoretically think are linked to authoritarianism (race, militarism, immigration, gay rights, feminism, etc.) fit. Second, that means that there is nothing inevitable about the Mommy-Daddy divide structuring politics. If these issues dominate the agenda, as they have at times since 9-11, then that divide is important. If it does not, then the Mommy-Daddy thing is less important. The issues that voters are asked to consider affect what feelings, thoughts, worldviews divide us.
I don’t. But I have a feeling I know what I am going to look up when the book chat is over. Thanks for the tip.
R-complex = reptilian (insticts)
Limbic = mammalian (emotions)
Marc’s point is very important – authoritarianism among politicians appealing to white voters leads to political positions that are likely to be a turn-off among Latino and especially African American voters (who might otherwise be attracted to a message of strict morals etc). The book talks at length about Bush II’s (and McCain’s) efforts to craft an immigration policy that would be more attractive to Latino voters, and how they crashed and burned.
Tell me more?
Murdoch became one of the most powerful and influential people in the world by perfecting this method of celebrity “news” over the past 35 years. Prior to that, rags like the Enquirer were scorned by real journalists and by citizens, alike.
Do the non-authoritarian Ds have to put up with spineless pols? That is, is leadership off the table for non-authoritarians. I’m thinking about your description up top of O being about as non-authoritarian as one can get, and he shows ZERO leadership skills.
From xenophobia of provincial Republican followers?
The only reason I might lean toward libbyliberal’s intention to “protect” vs. intention to “explore” is because “instinct” vs. “cognition” might leave too much of emotion (and even religion) out of the equation.
As we come to the end of this lively Book Salon,
Marc, Jonathan, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us discussion your new book and politics.
Henry, Thank you very much for Hosting this great Book Salon.
Everyone, if you haven’t had the chance to read this important book, here is a link.
Thanks all.
Thank you Bev and Henry for making this happen.
Thank you both for doing this (and everyone else for participating).
I think that Obama’s use of rhetoric is remarkable, insofar as it has something to do with leadership. But, in the rah-rah, lets go do it no matter what our opposition thinks sense, I think you will probably be disappointed. I suspect he takes objections, no matter whether we might find them silly, pretty seriously.
And remember that old movie, Broadcast News. Suddenly news was seen not as a loss leader on tv, but to make money on popular viewership. The line between news and titillating sensationalism got blurred.
When MSNBC boasts about all day “politics” they don’t say news and enlightenment. But political gamesmanship analysis. Yeah some good news and perspective from Rachel and Keith but a lot of ego punditry on many shows.
And perris is right. They need two sides to duke it out. And one side often doesn’t deserve the megaphone on the tripe they are expounding.
I guess I had better say my thank yous, too. This was a great couple hours for me. Thanks to all.
Looking forward so much to reading this book!!! Thank you!!!
I find O’s rhetoric cliche filled and boring. Delivery good only by standards of his predecessor.
The R-complex (reptilian) deals with some basic survival insticts and automatic functions.
The second part, the limbic system (mammalian), deals with emotions and some instincts, including sexual.
The third part The neocortex (cerebral cortex) deals with cognition and the conceptualization necessary for symbolic thinking, which I think is what makes speech possible.
Professor Hetherington and Professor Weiler,
Thank you for helping us to think in new ways about how people in the political arena make their decisions and influence leaders.
Your bar on rhetoric is higher than perhaps anyone I have encountered. My sense is that most think he is both a remarkable rhetorician and a remarkable speech maker. But I might be wrong about that.
The first two chemical or electrical reactions are virtually instantaneous. The third takes quite awhile to happen. That’s why you sit up at night in bed, slap your forehead, and say to yourself: THAT’S what I should have said to the judge.
Yes, but the last thing the faces of the right want is an exchange. That’s why they hide away in their studios while Roger Ayles edits (writes) their copy.
Thank you for this salon.
Marc’s point about emotion is a good one. Because emotion joins up with conceptualization (at least it sure does for me :) ). Will explore this more. Thanks Knox! I have read so many pscyh books but never seen it presented like this. Appreciate.
One question I have is who are the authorities that Authoritarians trust more than others? When people have a choice to make, what traits do they look for as the ultimate authority? In science, what works for them? The lab coat, the degrees after the name, the history of prizes? In issues of morality who do they turn to?
I had though about how to use this to help deposition Sean Hannity’s authority in the eyes of his listeners/viewers. By finding a higher authority that disagrees with him profoundly.
Hannity believes that water boarding isn’t torture. He believes that something that most people call torture is “enhanced interrogation.”
Who is his moral and linguistic authority for this? John Yoo? Dick Cheney?
Hannity is also a Catholic. The current Catholic Church view on water boarding is that it is torture. Pope Benedict XVI has said that the prohibition against torture ‘cannot be contravened under any circumstance.’
So I would compare and contrast Hannity’s view on torture against the current church view. In a case like this Hannity would have to say that his views on torture come from Yoo vs. the Current Church views. Now of course the Catholic Church’s name is mud around here for good reason, but their current views against torture are in line with progressives.
A RWA having to decide who is the Authority on this issue might be interesting to see which side they come down on. But Sean Hannity in trouble with the Church would be fun to see.
Of course when I’ve approached the three different groups within the Catholic Church (including the archdioceses of New York) to simply state their views on torture in contrast to Hannity’s they refused.
I’m probably a lot older than you, so I have a greater basis of comparison. But even more recently, I thought Clinton beat O in rhetoric by a country mile. Clinton said interesting things and made interesting connections. O does neither. For example, in his vaunted speech about race, O said we should begin a national conversation, but he did not begin it. His Cairo speech, for which he won the much discredited Nobel, contained all the lets make friends cliches that a second year foreign policy student could have unearthed.
And they come from the “broken record” school of assertiveness. Keep wailing what you want and don’t listen.
Sometimes I wish the non-authoritarians would use some moral “broken record” assertiveness and stop trying to explain and compromise on stuff that shouldn’t be compromised on. Or maybe that is my inner authoritarian coming out.
For that kind of thing, I prefer to think in terms of Jungian psychology and the relationship between unconscious processes and consciousness.
It’s also the reason why I try to find time to meditate, though I usually fail to do it very well!
I gave meditation a try for nearly a year. Boring and unproductive, imo.
Also, remember when Michael Steele went back to kiss Rush’s ring? Which Congress person also had to do that, I forget.
MacLean’s theory of the triune brain is not new. I wouldn’t be surprised if you find out that a lot has been done to build on his idea since he first presented it about 40 or 50 years ago.
Knox, we didn’t even talk about right vs. left bring orientation. Have read a lot about that. Meditation for me lets my right brain get more air time during my day I think.
Will check it out. This was a stimulating salon.
I think all on the left have had it with compromise.
As far as black and white thinking or splitting goes, that’s actually a stage we all go through in our childhood emotional development. It comforts us at an early age as we try to make sense of the world around us.
Corporal punishment, physical and/or emotional abuse can stop a person’s emotional development and keep them stuck at this black and white stage of development.
The ability to think along different tangents but not make connections across them could also be a sign of mental illness.
- Tom
I missed this earlier. This sounds straight out of Alice Miller’s writings. Are you familiar with her. Her book For Your Own Good is awesome. About the religiosity of parents and their authoritarianism. Poisonous pedagoguey.
This might sound odd, but I have a hard time clearing my mind sometimes, so I try to listen to Ian McKellen’s reading of Homer’s Odyssey or, more recently, to Derek Jacobi’s reading of Homer’s Iliad for at least a half hour a day. Probably wouldn’t work for everyone! I also try to imagine the gods – and even the mortal characters – as representing more psychological forces than being divine beings or merely actual human beings.
The point is to engage other levels of thinking that simple cognition.
Dysfunctional communication I read somewhere is at the base of all mental illness.
The prevention of processing and exploring trauma.
If you are “confused” by something or someone you are “fused with” that entity or person and in a way can’t separate or get closure through understanding. But if you have this Pavlovian traumatizing every time you question authority you become a hostage and infantilized.
And perris is right
Yeah, Perris is right a lot. What’s up with that? :-)
Broadcast News is one of my favorite movies and Holly Hunter one of my favorite actresses. If you haven’t seen the series Saving Grace you might want to check it out. The end of season one beginning of season two episodes were Oscar worthy work on her part.
It has a strange premise (Homicide Detective who sees a “Last Chance Angel”)
but it allows them to deal with lots of ethical issues. And since it takes place in Oklahoma City they deal the bombing by that Timothy McVeigh is the shadow that hangs over the entire series.
Corporal abuse spurred my intellectual development. I thought my parents’ authoritarianism was completely wrong, that I did not deserve the punishment, and I went on to prove my point. (Near as I can tell in retrospect, is that I got the wooden spoon on the hands for being stubborn. Big sin in an authoritarian environment. Maybe the worst sin.)
Can’t remember either, but its always Lindsay Graham who has to smooth it over on MTP.
I think in a wide variety of ways. I simply cannot “clear” my brain, which is why I tried meditation, unsuccessfully, for so long. I wanted to give it enough time to make sure I’d given it the old college try. I do a lot of mindless physical stuff, like bicycling or clearing brush (yes, I have that, and only that, in common with W). Mostly I listened to books, but I still have plenty of down time that falls into a category that some would describe as meditation.
I’ve never read anything by Alice Miller. The first thing that came to mind was Alice Walker, the Color Purple (excellent book!).
I didn’t think it was a good idea to bring up earlier, but there is the virtue of xiao in Confucian thought, which is usually translated as “filial piety.” It is the devotion that children are to have for their parents and elders, the devotion that the living members of a family are to have for their ancestors.
That’s what I was thinking of. I think our society in more recent decades has lost touch with this type of virtue. We tend to teach children to follow rules and obey the literal letter too much, imo.
Love Holly Hunter!!! All her movies. Have not kept up with this tv show of hers but a friend loves it. Will check out if I can. I think America needs to deal with values issues more than sensationalism. I think the obsession with L&O is about quest for justice. Needing that in a country that is failing in that department re the haves and the have nots double standard. But the other day I watched a series of shows about crime and I was dizzy and so depressed, also. Sex trafficking, vicious homicides, kidnappings, etc.
Thanks. :)
When you come to dinner at my house I’ll make sure to serve the soup with a plastic ladle.
I’m making a potato leek soup this week.
Or would you prefer the Dan Quayle version, Potatoe Leak?
Doing those kinds of physical things are probably a lot better for your mind that what I’m doing!
In parochial school they used the metal side of a ruler. In my experience, that method was used by maybe 2 of 30 nuns.
Interesting.
Alice Miller wrote Prisoner of Childhood, her first one I think, later they changed the name to Drama of the Gifted Child. Apparently the more emotionally intelligent the child the more traumatized at an early age from the demand by a parent that contradicts the child’s view of reality. The child to stay in good grace of parent must deny their own intuition and astuteness.
I was raised too much to respect my elders … and some elders did not deserve that automatic respect and empowerment. And it gave me issues with authority as an adult, sometimes healthy, sometimes not so much. :)
eCAHN, you never answered. How would you feel about being on that jury? Were you being rhetorical? The fact that it is possible for New Yorkers did give me pause.
Oh, here’s a good recipe for you. Summer squash with yukon gold potatoes, to which I added leeks. You can also add any colored vegie like spinach, beets, carrots to potato leek soup, which makes it more presentable, imo.
The soup recipe is on p 91 here. Just type in page 91 in the search window, or potato squash soup.
I’m with you on this quest for justice stuff. Check out Elisabeth Warren on Now this last week. She is stunned that the people let the bankers just pay themselves billions in bonuses after they got the Government to bail them out. The Bernie Madoff cause gave the people someone to focus on, but since there has been no one sent to jail for wrong doings people feel that justice has been denied them.
I think that is why the right wing millionaires in the media got scared during the AIG house visits. They were afraid of violence, but I think violence in that case would have earned them sympathy and a legit reason to hire goons to protect them (Who is it? “Goons. Hired Goons.” -The Simpsons)
A long drawn out court case might not fell as satisfying as someone slapping them across the face and demanding their money back, but it is necessary because otherwise they will do it again.
We need an Untouchable team to work on one of these cases. I want to be hired to be the Untouchable team spokesperson.
I went to have dinner, then came back later & didn’t review comments that happened while I was gone. I’d do that jury in a heartbeat; it’s history in the making.
Drama of the Gifted Child changed my life. Well, to be fair, my life had changed long before I read that, but that book explained why.
Hey thanks! And I have that cookbook! I’ve been told I need to add more kale to my soups. It’s just not something I think of when tasting a soup, “Hmmm, needs more kale.”
thanks for the link. I am such a fan of Warren and Now and Moyers’ Journal.
I just diaried about Peter Galbraith, Dem who pushed for Iraq War, now revealed he stands to gain $100 mill from a Kurd oil field. No conflict of interests there, right? Except he came out against Karzai which makes one wonder, is he getting religion now and getting exposed for that?
Follow the money. There is so much stinking money that has done so much corruption. And the Congress is up to its ears in it. How do we pull out of the accountability coma. Make it through the corporate matrix?
If you want abuses of the rich, think of the gilded age. I’m just about done listening to Packing the Court which is a history of SCOTUS. The gilded age abuses make today look mild.
My parents said I was above average! Which would make me a genius in right wing circles!
Thanks, eCAHN. I feel the same way. If someone asked for my top 5 lifetime books that would be included.
I’m not a kale person. It’s kind of bitter isn’t it? I’d be wary of adding it to soups unless you’re sure you like the flavor.
kale is one of those super veggies — is super nutritious and so intensely green, is it not? my mother used it in soups a lot years ago. i do not make homemade soup and have not thought of kale in a long time. :) sorry, mom.
Heh. No shortage of high opinions of our own intelligence to be found on this site! And no shortage of agreement from other commenters.
gotta go. take care. :)
So is it bitter? Or not?
Marcy’s upstairs. Perhaps we should join her.
The Confucians believed that children who were raised according to xiao would be respectful toward political authority as well, and so infinitely less likely to rebel.
I will check out Alice Miller’s Drama of the Gifted Child.
Right now, gotta run!
It will not happen until millions march in the streets. I was disappointed that Elizabeth Warren avoided answering when she was asked that question specifically on “Now.” I thought it was quite obvious she wanted to answer yes, but did not.
libbyliberal, Thanks I’ll read the diary later. I have a bit of connection to that story. M elanie M organ’s group Move America Fo ward was staffed by R usso M arsh & Rogers
In July 2005, O’Dwyers PR Daily reported that “the Kurdistan Regional Government has hired Republican lobby firm R usso M arsh & Rogers to get ‘free media’ to promote the interests of the Kurds in the post-Saddam Hussein Iraq.”
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Russo_Marsh_%26_Rogers
I don’t think she was a paid spokesperson, but the Kurds clearly spread some money around on this issue.
I got that too. I wonder just how effect “millions in the streets” really are anymore. But I was thinking the other day about a comment someone made, we don’t have a visual for the “Great Recession” yet. Hundreds of foreclosed homes? What does 10.2 or 18.2 percent unemployment look like?
What the media want are bread lines. I’m guessing that this thanksgiving they will do the same stories they do every year and talk about how, “This is the worst year in 29 years.” and then go off to something else.
There is no Dorothy Lange photographing the people carting their belonging to smaller homes. There are no ways to see enmass the fear of no savings and an underwater mortgages.
They need an X vs. Y story and nobody is doing PR for the unemployeed side of the story.
had to leave, eCAHN, sorry. well, iirc as my mother explained, it is an “acquired taste” … so I think it was … hmmm…. bitter was probably a good word. startling. I remember I said it was like eating “grass” soup, real grass, the color and maybe the strange flavor.
#207 is for you. Sorry.
This reminds me of when McCain had his pr people handling Georgia re Russian crisis.
Turning to publicity handlers more than “statesmen” … I know, a term that is anachronistic … statesmen or stateswomen left in US can probably count on one hand with fingers left over. (so glad I am not bitter..:) )
The corporate carpetbagging in Iraq and Afghanistan horrifies.