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	<title>Comments on: Live Blog: Health Care Reform Bill Debate Begins</title>
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	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/11/07/live-blog-health-care-reform-bill-debate-begins/</link>
	<description>Firedoglake weblog</description>
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		<title>By: oldhippiejan</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/11/07/live-blog-health-care-reform-bill-debate-begins/#comment-2011742</link>
		<dc:creator>oldhippiejan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 10:21:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/?p=49293#comment-2011742</guid>
		<description>I watched this sham on c-span until blood nearly started spurting from my ears. I don&#039;t know which party was more infuriating. The GOP&#039;s mock indignation over job loss and deficits, or the Dems acting as though they had just invented fire. This whole goddamn charade is nothing but a huge shit sandwich. As I said last week, why the hell aren&#039;t we rioting in the streets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I watched this sham on c-span until blood nearly started spurting from my ears. I don&#8217;t know which party was more infuriating. The GOP&#8217;s mock indignation over job loss and deficits, or the Dems acting as though they had just invented fire. This whole goddamn charade is nothing but a huge shit sandwich. As I said last week, why the hell aren&#8217;t we rioting in the streets.</p>
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		<title>By: djfourmoney</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/11/07/live-blog-health-care-reform-bill-debate-begins/#comment-2010959</link>
		<dc:creator>djfourmoney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 03:48:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/?p=49293#comment-2010959</guid>
		<description>This is a game, I&#039;m still disappointed but its still a game that&#039;s being played out.

 This stupid anti-woman rhetoric from the ConservaDems and the Right I hope is removed from the bill.

 Women are constantly used as escape goats in many social debates and considering what happen to Dr Tiller earlier this year, women as well as minorities are going to have to stand up and say enough is enough.

 Nobody Pro Choice likes Abortion, they just don&#039;t seem to get that. So we have to constantly run around this invisible issue when its largely a non-issue in other Western Countries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a game, I&#8217;m still disappointed but its still a game that&#8217;s being played out.</p>
<p> This stupid anti-woman rhetoric from the ConservaDems and the Right I hope is removed from the bill.</p>
<p> Women are constantly used as escape goats in many social debates and considering what happen to Dr Tiller earlier this year, women as well as minorities are going to have to stand up and say enough is enough.</p>
<p> Nobody Pro Choice likes Abortion, they just don&#8217;t seem to get that. So we have to constantly run around this invisible issue when its largely a non-issue in other Western Countries.</p>
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		<title>By: RossK</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/11/07/live-blog-health-care-reform-bill-debate-begins/#comment-2010696</link>
		<dc:creator>RossK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 01:22:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/?p=49293#comment-2010696</guid>
		<description>Sorry to go a little OT (but not really, because it speaks to the obfuscatory tactics of the Insurance Industry Protection Program and their surrogates)

Marsha Blackburn can go to bloody hell.

Up here in Canada, we are proud of how many folks with high risk of complication have been immunized against H1N1 already (ie. 20% of the total population in my province which likely represents up to 75% of high risk folks in just two weeks since the publically-funded vaccine was rolled out).

What we do hate, however, are the selfish bastards of privilege who have been using the thin edge of the Anti-Universality wedge (ie. private clinics) to jump the queue and take vaccine from people that could actually die if they were to suffer complications due to this virus. 

Bastards like &lt;a href=&quot;http://pacificgazette.blogspot.com/2009/11/gated-flu-vaccine-clinic-community.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt;.

And &lt;a href=&quot;http://pacificgazette.blogspot.com/2009/11/so-when-exactly-did-calgary-flames-and.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this.&lt;/a&gt;

Marsha Blackburn is a shill and a liar.

It&#039;s as simple as that.


(sorry for the interruption)

.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry to go a little OT (but not really, because it speaks to the obfuscatory tactics of the Insurance Industry Protection Program and their surrogates)</p>
<p>Marsha Blackburn can go to bloody hell.</p>
<p>Up here in Canada, we are proud of how many folks with high risk of complication have been immunized against H1N1 already (ie. 20% of the total population in my province which likely represents up to 75% of high risk folks in just two weeks since the publically-funded vaccine was rolled out).</p>
<p>What we do hate, however, are the selfish bastards of privilege who have been using the thin edge of the Anti-Universality wedge (ie. private clinics) to jump the queue and take vaccine from people that could actually die if they were to suffer complications due to this virus. </p>
<p>Bastards like <a href="http://pacificgazette.blogspot.com/2009/11/gated-flu-vaccine-clinic-community.html" rel="nofollow">this</a>.</p>
<p>And <a href="http://pacificgazette.blogspot.com/2009/11/so-when-exactly-did-calgary-flames-and.html" rel="nofollow">this.</a></p>
<p>Marsha Blackburn is a shill and a liar.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s as simple as that.</p>
<p>(sorry for the interruption)</p>
<p>.</p>
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		<title>By: SouthernDragon</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/11/07/live-blog-health-care-reform-bill-debate-begins/#comment-2010692</link>
		<dc:creator>SouthernDragon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 01:01:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/?p=49293#comment-2010692</guid>
		<description>Did Michelle just get back from Hawaii?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did Michelle just get back from Hawaii?</p>
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		<title>By: SouthernDragon</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/11/07/live-blog-health-care-reform-bill-debate-begins/#comment-2010691</link>
		<dc:creator>SouthernDragon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 00:57:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/?p=49293#comment-2010691</guid>
		<description>Jack Kennedy never thanked the &quot;Catholic Bishops&quot; for supporting legislation, did he?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jack Kennedy never thanked the &#8220;Catholic Bishops&#8221; for supporting legislation, did he?</p>
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		<title>By: powwow</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/11/07/live-blog-health-care-reform-bill-debate-begins/#comment-2010689</link>
		<dc:creator>powwow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 00:46:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/?p=49293#comment-2010689</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t disagree at all with the fact that &quot;the Republican Party had its chance&quot; [to reform health care], as McGovern put it, and as you further elaborated.  

What I do vehemently disagree with is McGovern using that fact, or failure, or Party-blinded description &lt;b&gt;of our federal representatives&lt;/b&gt; as any sort of justification &lt;b&gt;for blocking all but one amendment offered by House members on this bill&lt;/b&gt; (including from experienced physicians not on the committees of health reform jurisdiction) from reaching the House floor (and/or refusing to lengthen the debate beyond &lt;b&gt;one day&lt;/b&gt;, so members might use more than a minute each to say something).  But that&#039;s what McGovern was doing, both with his words, and with his democracy-hostile race through the votes to defeat every Republican attempt to bring amendments to the floor (&lt;b&gt;including Democratic&lt;/b&gt; amendments).  

[It&#039;s dawned on me that Waxman&#039;s unexplained absence from the Rules Committee yesterday is probably because he was pulled into the closed-door negotiations with Stupak, et al, to try to make the sale, while the Rules Committee waited around to receive the pre-approved (abortion amendment-containing) rule that Alcee Hastings eventually obediently read off of a blue piece of paper when the moment was right, two-three hours after Stupak and Kaptur had unhappily departed the closed-door Party meeting(s).]

In other words, I&#039;m not content to let our representatives &lt;b&gt;defer&lt;/b&gt; to a top-down-controlled Party until the Party says &#039;the time is right&#039; for action on x, y, z.  I want Members of Congress &lt;b&gt;who think for themselves&lt;/b&gt; and self-direct - and if they are members of a Party &lt;i&gt;because of a Party platform they believe in&lt;/i&gt;, that will manifest in their votes, without backroom deals and power plays from unaccountable leaders forcing them into conformity.  I know this can&#039;t happen overnight, because of the current stranglehold the Parties have on Congress, but it &lt;i&gt;does&lt;/i&gt; &lt;b&gt;have to&lt;/b&gt; happen, and it has to start somewhere, if we are going to get our Congress back, and our federal government under the control of the people.  

[Thanks, Elliot @ 187 - I think I&#039;ve already pretty well covered the general  subject to the best of my ability, in my recent diary &lt;a href=&quot;http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/11509&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.  Last night&#039;s performance just further cemented things for me, even knowing what rubber stamps the members of the Rules Committee are &#039;hired&#039; to be.  The thought of the rarely-filmed Rules Committee quietly deep-sixing amendments along rigid Party lines, in the middle of the night on the third floor of the Capitol, so they&#039;ll never reach the House floor below, is a haunting, evocative image for me of the &lt;b&gt;top-down strangling&lt;/b&gt; of democratic self-government that &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; &lt;b&gt;the Party&#039;s&lt;/b&gt; House today, equally now as when the Republicans were doing the same thing.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t disagree at all with the fact that &#8220;the Republican Party had its chance&#8221; [to reform health care], as McGovern put it, and as you further elaborated.  </p>
<p>What I do vehemently disagree with is McGovern using that fact, or failure, or Party-blinded description <b>of our federal representatives</b> as any sort of justification <b>for blocking all but one amendment offered by House members on this bill</b> (including from experienced physicians not on the committees of health reform jurisdiction) from reaching the House floor (and/or refusing to lengthen the debate beyond <b>one day</b>, so members might use more than a minute each to say something).  But that&#8217;s what McGovern was doing, both with his words, and with his democracy-hostile race through the votes to defeat every Republican attempt to bring amendments to the floor (<b>including Democratic</b> amendments).  </p>
<p>[It's dawned on me that Waxman's unexplained absence from the Rules Committee yesterday is probably because he was pulled into the closed-door negotiations with Stupak, et al, to try to make the sale, while the Rules Committee waited around to receive the pre-approved (abortion amendment-containing) rule that Alcee Hastings eventually obediently read off of a blue piece of paper when the moment was right, two-three hours after Stupak and Kaptur had unhappily departed the closed-door Party meeting(s).]</p>
<p>In other words, I&#8217;m not content to let our representatives <b>defer</b> to a top-down-controlled Party until the Party says &#8216;the time is right&#8217; for action on x, y, z.  I want Members of Congress <b>who think for themselves</b> and self-direct &#8211; and if they are members of a Party <i>because of a Party platform they believe in</i>, that will manifest in their votes, without backroom deals and power plays from unaccountable leaders forcing them into conformity.  I know this can&#8217;t happen overnight, because of the current stranglehold the Parties have on Congress, but it <i>does</i> <b>have to</b> happen, and it has to start somewhere, if we are going to get our Congress back, and our federal government under the control of the people.  </p>
<p>[Thanks, Elliot @ 187 - I think I've already pretty well covered the general  subject to the best of my ability, in my recent diary <a href="http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/11509" rel="nofollow">here</a>.  Last night's performance just further cemented things for me, even knowing what rubber stamps the members of the Rules Committee are 'hired' to be.  The thought of the rarely-filmed Rules Committee quietly deep-sixing amendments along rigid Party lines, in the middle of the night on the third floor of the Capitol, so they'll never reach the House floor below, is a haunting, evocative image for me of the <b>top-down strangling</b> of democratic self-government that <i>is</i> <b>the Party's</b> House today, equally now as when the Republicans were doing the same thing.]</p>
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		<title>By: emerson</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/11/07/live-blog-health-care-reform-bill-debate-begins/#comment-2010682</link>
		<dc:creator>emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 00:02:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/?p=49293#comment-2010682</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know anybody that works eight, anymore. &quot;...possibly each way...&quot; is exactly right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know anybody that works eight, anymore. &#8220;&#8230;possibly each way&#8230;&#8221; is exactly right.</p>
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		<title>By: selise</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/11/07/live-blog-health-care-reform-bill-debate-begins/#comment-2010677</link>
		<dc:creator>selise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 23:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/?p=49293#comment-2010677</guid>
		<description>jim knows better, unless he&#039;s been getting his info from the hcan propaganda, which i seriously doubt.  and i&#039;m saying that, not based on the rules committee performance, but my previous interactions with him and his wednesday &quot;town hall.&quot; he just flat out lied about, for example, controlling costs and wouldn&#039;t respond to my question re the cms report (which shows higher costs and no cost control).

he&#039;s got smart people on his staff. his knowledge isn&#039;t limited to what he reads.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jim knows better, unless he&#8217;s been getting his info from the hcan propaganda, which i seriously doubt.  and i&#8217;m saying that, not based on the rules committee performance, but my previous interactions with him and his wednesday &#8220;town hall.&#8221; he just flat out lied about, for example, controlling costs and wouldn&#8217;t respond to my question re the cms report (which shows higher costs and no cost control).</p>
<p>he&#8217;s got smart people on his staff. his knowledge isn&#8217;t limited to what he reads.</p>
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		<title>By: PJEvans</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/11/07/live-blog-health-care-reform-bill-debate-begins/#comment-2010674</link>
		<dc:creator>PJEvans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 23:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/?p=49293#comment-2010674</guid>
		<description>Wasn&#039;t that 2005?
(My mother died just about the time it was being set up, and that was in 2005.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wasn&#8217;t that 2005?<br />
(My mother died just about the time it was being set up, and that was in 2005.)</p>
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		<title>By: PJEvans</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/11/07/live-blog-health-care-reform-bill-debate-begins/#comment-2010671</link>
		<dc:creator>PJEvans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 23:57:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/?p=49293#comment-2010671</guid>
		<description>work eight, commute two to three, possibly each way, and sleep six hours, if you&#039;re lucky.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>work eight, commute two to three, possibly each way, and sleep six hours, if you&#8217;re lucky.</p>
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