Dr Robert J. White is a modern miracle worker, or a modern Dr Frankenstein, depending on how you look at him. On March 14, 1970, Dr. White managed, after years of research, to successfully transplant the head of one rhesus monkey onto the body of another. The repercussions in terms of bioethics were extreme.
It took White nearly a decade to get to the point of a successful full-body transplant. Using techniques pioneered in the Soviet Union to isolate the organs, then developing a form of extreme hypothermia to keep the brain alive during surgery–a method still in use today–White was able to eventually transplant a dog brain into the body of another dog.
At this point, I’m sure many of you appalled by the idea of animal experimentation are screaming in horror. But if we did not do animal experimentation/testing we would not have the many advances in science we do today, including space travel, vaccines, cancer treatments and transplants. Recall, if you will, that in 1796, Dr. Edward Jenner rather forcibly inoculated his gardener’s son with cowpox then locked him in a barn for several days, re-infected him with smallpox, and then locked him up again to see what would happen. The kid lived, and now we have smallpox vaccine. So, anyway, back to Dr White who says:
I have been an advocate for almost a quarter of a century now of the need for animal experiments. All of the surgical procedures that we have discussed are done under general anesthesia. At no time would I or my staff permit any sort of painful operation to be conducted. I do think it is absolutely necessary for the success of mankind and for control of diseases that we have animal models.
White’s work proved that brains could be transplanted to bodies, and that the brains would work–his first subject, a rhesus monkey bit its handlers and could express hunger and other basic needs–and, in theory, could work on humans, though the bodies would remain paralyzed. So here comes the debate: If a quadriplegic develops cancer, and a new body could be found, should such surgery be done? Should a patient with multiple sclerosis have a fully body transplant? Who would decide? What if there is a greater demand for bodies than supply? Does organ harvesting come before full body transplant in terms of priority? Who makes these decisions? And would it be covered by insurance? Dr. White says:
But I often ask people to imagine sitting on a committee which has a responsibility of providing and approving organs for transplantation. And let’s say a man comes before you, totally paralyzed from the neck down, he’s now in his fifties, and he has been told that in six months he will be dead because of multi-organ failure. Are you going to sit there and tell him he can’t have a transplant? Say that it’s at a point in the future when we have genetically engineered animals whose organs will be available to us. Say you had bodies coming out of your ears, and you could certainly grant him one. Well, some people still wouldn’t. There is a moral issue here. They feel it’s too dramatic: who is the person?
Director/producer David Feinberg interviews a feisty retired Dr. White, now 84 years old, who spends his days writing at a reserved table at his local McDonald’s. Passionate and enthusiastic, Dr. White expounds on his history and discoveries, and is justifiably proud of achievements–in 1994 he became a member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, a Vatican advisory board–and he believes the brain is the seat of soul.
Dr. White’s work changed the way surgery is done and changed the lives of thousands of patients. Whether we will have full body transplants in his or our lifetimes remains to be seen, but the ramifications are intense.
Part 1, Part 2 – Vice TV’s documentary: Dr. White’s Total Body Transplant
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As stated in the post above, this film and its discussion deal with animal experimentation, amongst other research. If you find the subject offensive, and cannot hold back your distaste, you may wish to join us next week for Money Driven Medicine, a documentary about the health care industry. If you wish to discuss the bioethics involved, please join us.
Please no ad hominem attacks, and please stay on topic, which in this case means the astounding research of Dr Robert White, bioethics, transplants, medical research in general…
That being said, let’s welcome David Feinberg who interviewed Dr White at the local McDonalds and put together this exciting, engaging and amusing documentary.
Hi David! How did you discover Dr White’s work?
Hello and thank you for inviting me to chat!
I loved “meeting” dr White with you, what a character, what a sweet guy, what a GENIUS!
For those who have not seen any of our content at VBS.TV, our documentary about Dr. White was produced as part of our show on science and technology. We were fascinated by Dr. White’s life and career because his work brought up a number of interesting issues… philosophical, theological, and ethical.
Yes, he was an amazing character… and although he talks throughout much of the documentary which is around 30 min. long, our full interview was over 3 hours long!
Which is why i LOVED it! I think the brain is super exciitng, super sexy and super cool. The idea of being able to tranplant a living brain/head onto a body is stunning–and despite reading lots about how the brain works, I hadnt heard about this (even in my bio-psych class) until Vice put up your doc
I think some people will think Hey I’m immortal now but how long can a brain function before old age becomes a problem? Would a new liver and kidneys help keep brain function extended?
Did you ever ask him what he thought about Mcdonald’s food and its effects on biopsychology? (Dr White spends most of his day writing and research at mcDonalds because there are distractions at home)
Any problems with churches is this another Stem Cell debate?
You know, I did ask him about the menu there. He said he only drinks decaf coffee and diet coke! That’s all he had during our long chat!
From what I could glean–White is a bioethics advisor to the Vatican and a very practicing Catholic–there isnt an issue! White told the Pope (JP2) that the soul was in the brain. The Pope was silent on that, but I tend to agree!
Yes, this is a good point. Dr. White states in the video that the determination that the death of the brain constitutes the death of the soul is probably what he considers paramount. That is, you and your soul reside in your brain and therefore you are truly dead when you experience brain death. He did mention, using Dr. Stephen Hawking as an example, that a new set of organs (provided in a full body transplant), might possibly have the effect of improving brain function.
Any truth to the rumors of immigrants being unwilling organ donors if this procedure makes people immortal I would expect a lot more disappearances. I wonder if the Minute Men are involved in the trade they certainly have the motive and opportunity.
I didnt know that about jenner. what a typical 18th century elitist asshole. i assume he could have innoculated and infected himself but chose to experiment on a servants child against his will instead.
Yes, this is an interesting quote of Dr. White’s here… He has been the official advisor on bioethics for many popes and he is a very religious person himself. Although Dr. White has been the center of a lot of controversy, I think much of his career was devoted to medical practices that are squarely in the mainstream of medicine, especially now.
Is that a widely held medical opinion? Former Senator Dr Bill Frist has never heard that one in regards to Terry Schiavo.
This is bullshit.
There is no way know yet to join the old brain onto the new spinal cord. At best the new body would be quadriplegic, and the new host body would probably reject he transplanted brain, or there would be tremendous stress on the new brain from tissue swelling in the skull.
Catholics are cool with this but what about born again Fundies I could see Bush banning this research in a second.
If he did it to a dog then can people be that hard?
I hadn’t come across the example of Dr. Edward Jenner, either. Very interesting!
Which part of the human body does the “soul” reside in? Thought the R.C.s had a big dog in that fight. /s
I have no problem with animal experiments, which may put me in the minority here. My field was science until I switched to economics a couple of years after undergrad. Worked in a lab with mice, and human blood. Don’t know any substitute for certain advances in science.
From the clip and the write-up, White seems to be quite a character, just my kind of guy. And just about the age my late husband would be.
I think science should completely avoid discussions of the “soul”, where i resides and so on. It offers nothing but needless controversy and the “soul” is not a subject science can in any way cope with.
One of my close friends suffered a sudden stroke just a few weeks ago; over 40% of his left lobe was affected within 24 hours. At first, for the first 8 hours or so he could recognize us and and react a bit,which was weird but it was clear he was no longer “himself” and after 24 hours he went rapidly downhill form the brain swelling and beginning necrosis–it was very, very clear that “he” was gone, his brain, his vital self, that which made him HIM was destroyed, and he would not come back. As it was his wish, we let him go, and blessings to the hospital for the “comfort care.”
It was uh..gnarly to see the seat of soul so affected and so immediately.
Still its a good question how do you hook up a brain to a spinal cord ?
The subject matter brings to mind a novel by Robort A Heinlein: “I will Fear No Evil”. Sci-fi about a (successful?) brain transplant.
it was written in the later phase of RAH’s career and many people don’t like it. It does look at some of the spiritual aspects of the subject.
Well, that answers my snark @ 22 (you were submitting while I was typing). So my next snark is “How does he know?” (that the soul resides in the brain; wouldn’t the “heart” also be a leading candidate?)
You have a good point, Synoia. At this point in time, we are not able to reconnect the spinal cord and therefore a full body transplant would result in paralysis. Dr. White believes that people who are already paralyzed are ideal candidates in the present day (Dr. Hawking as an example, again). But he also believes that with advances in science, in the next 50 to 100 years there’s a chance that a successful procedure to solve this problem might be developed. Much of the stem cell debate is related to research related to this.
Dr White is aware of this, as are other reseachers. The idea would be to transplant the head of a quadriplegiac onto a donor body, if the original body was failing. Dr White discusses spinal glues which seem to help in the neural process…
There was a point in medicine when it was believe that the heart was the most vital organ and seat of the soul… A lot has changed in just the last 50 years since some of the first transplant operations were performed.
Can Sociopaths with no empathy for others be said to have a soul even if they have a brain? Higher animals care for each other work in groups cooperate Sociopaths seem like throwbacks to lower animals that don’t care for each other, work in groups etc.
I guess what I’m wondering is if we decide that Loyal Bushies and Corporate CEO’s don’t have souls then would it be right to harvest them if they are healthy that is.
I have no problems with animal experiments; many of my friends are a live today thanks to medicines developed on animal models. The Egyptians felt the brain was useless, they took it out of mummies because they didn’t think it was necesary in the after life!
It’s pretty clear that the brain is the seat of consciousness, and research by Ramachandra and others seem to show that “god awareness’ is in the a specific sectin of the brain which isnt used for much else (for atheists I suppose it would be some other form of consciousness, maybe denial-of-God? *wink*)
“Soul” does imply a religious take on things..maybe “self” or “uniqueness”?
There are many ethical questions about Dr. White’s work. They will never be exhausted. I think Dr. White was compelled to push the boundaries of science because he was so interested in investigating these issues.
David, how did you discover Dr White?
My point exactly. Once brain transplants become common, poof, there goes the soul-resides-in-the-brain myth. Then how do the religious folks define the soul?
My other scientific Q about the soul is: since the human and drosophila genome is about 97% the same, and the similarity is even greater wrt chimps, at what point during evolution did the soul get inserted? 99%? 99.9%? Oh never mind. These “scientific” dicussions of the soul are ridiculous. I agree with solerso68 @ 23. Why does White even enter that quagmire?
Yes, a good point. The definition of “soul” is itself nebulous. I think it could be considered the repository for the “self”.
Well, the Egyptians got one thing right: brain is useless in afterlife. What they missed is that so is the body.
Whatever that section of the “god” brain is, must be a big blank spot on my pet scan.
The hardest part about producing and editing this project was: how do you make brain surgery understandable? I tried to include a lot of science without getting too bogged down by the mechanics of it.
Getting kind of off-topic, but if you’re right, and the “soul” and the “self” are closely related, I’d argue that the self is full body, mind (which is part of the body BTW) integration. Which would have vast religious significance if you took it seriously, because any change in the body would result in a change in the soul.
well, the head goes on another body, but the “person,” the head, the brain, the Self (soul?) is still THAT person, just with a different body..side note the Hebrew word for body is pronounced “goof”
Aren’t the mechanics of it the most fascinating part? Lisa’s introduction emphasized the bioethics, which has dominated our discussion so far. It’s the science that will fascinate me when I get a chance to view the whole film.
Slightly OT
http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Consciousness-Breakdown-Bicameral-Mind/dp/0618057072
I learned SOOOOO much about the early days of transplants–and the astounding work the Russians did. we were definitely in a science race with the USSR. Dr White visited Russia, didn’t he?
Oh, but we’ve moved on and decided that the “soul” is the whole “self” which means that if you transplant a brain into another body, what is the altered self, or soul, that results? And if you believe there is a soul, and that it is a whole body integration, then ethical Qs abound.
You’ll LOVE the science stuff–David did an amazing job finding films from that tme period which documented the operations like isolating the heart…
Well, yes, the “mechanics” are totally the most interesting part! I guess I was suggesting it was too difficult a task to portray the details of brian surgery. And let’s not forget, Dr. White performed much of his research and groundbreaking operations 40-50 years ago using equipment he invented himself.
Ah but if you can’t care for others only yourself can you be said to have a soul how can you claim to be better than the lower animals? Self Awareness alone is not enough to make the claim that you have a soul. My old cat cared more for me than a sociopath is capable of did my cat have a soul?
If so then animal testing is wrong and I am for animal testing.
I’m currently re-reading some other sci-fi that impinges on the question: The Night’s Dawn trilogy by Peter Hamilton.
Robert J Sawyer looked at it in “The Terminal Experiment”.
His breakthrough on hypothermia, cooling the brain so surgery can be done, is still being used today
I think it’s natural to think of science fiction in this discussion. I was partly inspired by “A Clockwork Orange” when choosing the soundtrack.
More of this please. One of the most distressing aspects of the W admin to me was turning its back on science. So happy to know that it is on the comeback. And celebrating the successes of the past is part of looking forward.
I remember when heart transplants were first done, recipients reported weird feelings. Being a kind of mechanical being, iirc. Can’t wait for the tales of the first brain transplant recipients. Don’t hear much from the heart folks anymore, now that it’s become routine.
Excuse all, Keith and John Dean just gave a shout out to FDL for following the Libby/Cheney issue. This is huge!!!
Congratulations to Jane and Marcy!!! (also Christy, LHP, Trex) Who did I forget?
I am strongly religious, and have beleive their is a sppirit/soul in each of us; sociopths though have had damage to the repsonse mechanisms. And I think the soul goes on after death, just with out the meat suit. One day I’ll find out, but uh..then I’ll be dead!
I did try to supplement the piece with some examples of older films from the era in which Dr. White performed these experiments to help explain his work. There are a surprising number of films and TV shows featuring brain transplants! The number of Frankenstein films alone would be interesting to compile.
My science training is now 4 decades old. If you hum a few bars, I can pick it up. I imagine grafting nerves together, stitching arteries, etc. Someone above asked how one connects the spinal cord. If you’ve answered that, I’ve missed it.
I wonder if third party stem cells could be convinced to grow into new nerves that hook up with both the patients brain and the new donor body? A stem cell that would be compatible with both the different body and different brain at the same time?
Yes, Dr. White gets a lot of attention for the head and brian transplants, but his work in the field of hypothermic therapy (cooling of the blood and nervous tissue) is probably a good basis for being considered for the Nobel Prize.
A friend’s dad had a liver transplant. The dad was an arty guy, not into sports. He came formt he hospital and became obsessed with golf. After talking wiht the donor’s family afterward my friend’s family leaned he was really into golfing..weird….
I think we can prove the existence of something by its actions or its lack by its lack of action. I am not convinced Sociopaths have souls. I do think making them body donors would be wrong but on the other hand can we really afford another Bush as President, Darth as VP or another bunch of CEO’s demanding another bank bailout?
I think we may be forced to lock them away until a cure is found.
How many people did he have working for him? I learned form reading a couple articles about him that his research center is now closed down….And Iwas so moved how he would say, we treated out animals the same way we would a child, the same care…
Yes, I’ve recently come in contact with some research on hypothermic therapy. Can’t remember where or what, but it seems like a new medical miracle. Not surprised to learn that it is critical with the kind of work Dr. White is doing.
I just got a beehive last June. The bees are entering hybernation now (mid-Hudson region), when their body temp lowers to mid-50s from mid-90s. I’d suspect that wrt humans, hypothermia under controlled conditions is something like hybernation in those animals who do it.
Heh. I love those stories. Not because they are necessarily true, but because they make me think about my own absence of a spritual side. But given tonight’s discussion, it also is now in my brain in the context of soul being a full body integration.
He had a number of people working for him over the years. His lab he established in Cleveland, Brain Research Laboratories, was shut down when he retired. Many of the doctors and technicians who worked under him went on to found their own laboratories elsewhere. I asked Dr. White what happened to all the equipment from BRL, he said “it’s in storage.” It was actually put on display in a few countries as an science exhibit.
eCAHN, you may enjoy this article about noted neurologist V.S. Ramachandran director of the Center for Brain and Cognition at the University Calif San Diego. I’ve seen him speak–he’s awesome!
David, where did you find the film of Russian doctors? What has the reaction to the doc been in the scientific community? Where has it been shown–only on Vice?
TIME TO PLUG VICE.. If you havent checked uut Vice Tv (vbs.tv), you should—they have GREAT docs, and we’ve showcased some of them here over the past few months. They are cutting edge, smart funny, brave, interesting and FUN!
On the subject of archival material, I drew from “Experiments in the Revival of Organisms” which can be viewed here: http://www.archive.org/details/Experime1940
There are some additional scenes of dogs being re-animated as well as a severed dogs head being maintained alive by machinery. These are very graphic images and although their authenticity has been questioned they have been accepted by a large number of people in the scientific community, including Dr. White.
In fact, there is kind of a parallel history to Dr. White’s work in Russia, especially as the Cold War escalated so to did a scientific rivalry.
What a fasinating discussing.
My better part and I were talking about death, yes, again, yesterday on All Saints Day.
And, we were discussing our fathers’ deaths and how when we were there, looking at their dead bodies, how unique the experience was. How, their body was their, but it was not them. There was something missing. Not like they were just sleeping. Like, something about them was gone. Call it their soul, or something else. I don’t know.
I don’t want a new brain stuck to my spinal cord. But, that’s just me.
How long did the dogs and monkeys live? I love that the rhesus woke up bit a researchers finger then ate a meal!
Yes, VBS.TV is part of VICE magazine and even 2.5 years after it launched I think is still unique on the internet: original content produced in-house that provides a look at many interesting subjects. We are a television network and a production company all in one! One of the best parts about VBS is that ALL of our content is ALWAYS available for viewing and for free. That’s so much cooler than TV! And it’s also what I think has attracted a large global audience, especially among young people.
We are working on some great new projects. We have projects in the works filmed everywhere from Liberia to Haiti to Alaska.
Thanks for the link. It looks captivating. I’ll read it when I’m fresher, so that I can concentrate on it. I’ve moved a few other science books toward the top of my pile, like Spakolsy and Pinker.
Although a lot of our content is now over 2 years old, it doesn’t fit squarely in the 24-hour news cycle and some of the projects are now as timely as they ever were. For example, we recently did an update to our doc “The Gun Markets of Pakistan.”
That’s on vbs.tv? I must take a look at that.
Oh, and when I was on Wall St., and writing weekly economics reports, I just updated timely old work a lot. Some things take a long time to change; for example I identified medical economics as a macroeconomic problem in 1991. So when there is a problem that takes a long time to solve, just do an update to keep it in the public’s eye.
http://www.vbs.tv/watch/the-vice-guide-to-travel/the-gun-markets-of-pakistan
It’s weird we haven;t heard more about white–but I gather he caused quite a storm at one point with PETA, from Sunday Telegraph, in 2000.
I watched it until the Afridis came on. It’s a keeper. Will link back to watch the whole thing. Have you read any books in the Flashman series? Afridis in prominent display.
David, Did Dr White patent any of his devices? I know he was in part funded by the govt, so did they get the proceeds (something we’ve seen re HIV/ADIS medicines) or does he receive royalties?
Yes, he has most definitely captured the attention of PETA. As you mentioned, Dr. White is quick to point out all the great advances afforded to us by testing on animals. There would have been no heart transplant procedure… or liver, etc. It’s yet another ethical issue that could be endlessly debated.
I’m not sure if he collects any kind of royalties.
Now that seems to be an effective way to combat PETA, rather than throwing brick bats.
I think PETA has a valid POV. They couldn’t convince me of it any more than I could convince them of the value of scientific experiments on animals. IMO, it’s a Q of weighing pros & cons, whereas PETA folks seem to have absolutes. But then, attempts at legitimate communication is always welcome. And congrats to White for figuring that out.
Do you know what PETA’s response was to the human lives saved? Were they convinced?
David, THANK YOU SO MUCH for a wonderful dicussion, really informative, fun and touching on stuff I care a lot about (and givne the comments tonight, so do our readers)! Firepups, thanks for a great discussion.
Next week, it’s MONEY DRIVEN MEDICINE, and hopefully you’ll all join us. And Please check out Vice (vbs.tv)
David, we look forward to more ViceTV here on Movie Night, and THANK YOU again for such a great doc on a really cool man!
Dr. White is very willing to engage in the conversation of ethics… I think his years as a target of PETA activists combined with his years teaching medical students have probably prepared him to answer almost any question. He definitely wasn’t short on answers during our interview!
Thanks so much. Looking forward to seeing the whole film. I think I’m in love with Dr. White, except that he’s R.C. *g*
PETA and others can be really intense–UCLA scientist have had cars firebombed and their homes flooded. One of my friends who worked the nephrology lab came in and foudn all the bunnies had been released form their cages, undoing years of reearch–and all the rabiits had to be killed because the researcheers couldnt tell whihc were which, there was cross contamination. had PETA left them alone they would have lived out their days eating carrots and stuff…
Thank you, Lisa. I feel like we just scratched the surface of a lot of issues here. I hope your readers enjoy the documentary about Dr. White. We always welcome comments on our site as well! Thanks again!
Here are a few more links to recent projects worth checking out:
http://www.vbs.tv/watch/vbs-news/obama-s-war
http://www.vbs.tv/watch/hamilton-s-pharmacopeia
http://www.vbs.tv/watch/toxic/toxic-imperial-valley-1-of-2