Steve, Welcome to the Lake.

John, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.

Hey Steve, thanks for being here!

To start off, why did you and your fellow co-authors decide that this was the right time for a book like this? And also, what kind of impact do you think/hope it will have?

Good afternoon/evening, gentlemen! Welcome!

You know, I remember in the mid-to-late ’seventies when it seemed that legalization was just around the corner. What happened?

First, John, so everyone knows I am here, I just wanted to thank you for having me. I look forward to chatting with the FDL community. Let me know get to your first question…

Oh, and Bev: thanks for asking me to MC this little shindig.

Good afternoon Steve and John and welcome to FDL.

I have to say that I’m part of the choir on this one. I recall my college days of the early ’70s and a lot of us thought marijuana would have been legalized years ago. But I do tend to be upfront with folks about my personal experiences. But those “that there evul mary-joo-wanna cigarette will cause you to go berserk” theme has been going strong over the years.

It does seem like though that the same folks who spout that today are also the same folks who have been shown to be wrong in a lot of other areas of life.

With respect to the timing and our hopes about the impact, let me start by saying I think we really lucked out in terms of the timing. When Chelsea Green (our published) decided to go ahead with the book, there was not the wave of attention given to marijuana policy we see today. So it turns out that the timing was right, but we didn’t plan it that way.

This is actually a book more than five years in the making — at least from my perspective. I have been working on marijuana policy reform for seven years now and determined in about 2004 that we needed to educate the public about the relative harms of marijuana and alcohol if we hoped to change our laws. I will go into that in more detail over the next two hours, but that is a quick intro.

Speaking of the marijuana wave, do you think that legalization is inevitable at this point? If so, how do you think it will happen, and how long will it take?

A gateway drug. Much like beer leads to wine coolers which leads to box wine which leads to Southern Comfort which leads to whiskey which leads to shots of brake fluid chased with anti-freeze.

I jest, but the gateway drug thing is a very real political argument.

Since Marijuana is so much safer than alcohol why is it that alcohol is legal while Marijuana is not?

There’s been so much jazz about “Marijuana is the gateway drug……” My under-one-year old grandson had a tiny taste of the sugar from a peep at Easter. I’m here to tell you: Sugar is the gateway drug!

Phoenix Woman – While I am a little young to remember it from personal experience, it certainly did seem like there was hope back in the 70’s, with a number of states passing decriminalization laws. But it is clear that the Just Say No era really set things back. And then, after the 1996 election, when California passed its medical marijuana law, the federal government launched an all-out attack on marijuana. That was when they came up with the “anti-drug” media campaign, which ended up airing about $1.5 billion in anti-marijuana ads between 1998 and 2008. That is quite a burden to overcome — and it is what we are trying to correct by getting people to understand that they have been fed a lot of propaganda, but the truth is that marijuana is actually far less harmful than a substance widely used and accepted in this country… alcohol.

I think the death of the anti-war movement and Reagan’s era contributed a great deal to the changing feel and why legalization stalled.

Just a note from a reader:
Anyone can grow a marijuana plant easier than build a still.
This is capitalism at its finest. Just my 2 cents….

You dedicate a great deal of the book to that comparison of alcohol and marijuana. Of that section, was there any statistic that struck you the most when comparing the two? Perhaps one you’d give to the average person as a jumping off point?

I started drinking when I was 13 in 1964 and getting stoned in Korea in 1967. I ran wide open for about 30 years. I’ve been totally straight for 17 years and I can testify, the ganja is nowhere near as dangerous and harmful as alcohol. . .no contest.

Gateway. You take a hit, another. Then, your feet start shuffling to the sounds of the music. You’re on the floor dancing by yourself. Next, there’s some other person dancing with you. And, then, and then, well, you know what happens next.

There’s a history lesson in Steve’s book and in my doc, but the short answer is that it was a combination of factors, with racism and corporate interests playing a big role.

Ditto. Straight for 12 here. No contest whatsoever.

We have a black president?

*ba-dum tssh*

I kinda wonder what would have happened if weed didn’t smell so pungent (and repulsively so, in many people’s minds). It’s a lot easier to hide moderate booze or even cocaine or smack usage, but light up a bowl and the scent’s in your clothes and on your breath, so much so that everybody within a twenty-foot radius knows you’re toking up.

TBSA – Your question gets to the heart of our book. While I probably don’t need to go into detail here about why alcohol is legal (as we are all familiar with the failed experiment that wasw alcohol prohibition), marijuana is illegal for reasons based more on myth than reality. It started in the easrly part of the 1900’s when rumors flew around the country about Mexicans going crazy on marijuana. That is generally what led to it being declared illegal throughout the country. Fast-forward to the 1970’s when a Commission recommended to President Nixon that marijuana be decriminalized. Nixon tossed the report and declared a war on marijuana, which was in many ways a cultural war. As I mentioned, the government continued to produce propaganda over the past dozen years. In short, marijuana is illegal because people have been convinced that it is much worse than it is and have generally ignored reality when it has been presented to them. We are going to change that.

Pretty much the same here. I started drinking at 13 and had many a conversation with Ralph about Buicks. Started smoking when I was 18 and a freshman in college.

No way no how is the comparison even close in effects.

I’m sure you are correct, but, dearheart, the pot we smoked in the 70’s is not the pot kids are smoking today. You’ll have to take my word for it, it seems.

It’s ironic, Chef Ra, a very close friend and herb advocate died of “beer drinkers” heart.

Welcome to the Lake. This should be a fun discussion.

When I was a teenager my pediatrician, Dorothy Whipple, wrote a book called “Q: Is the Grass Greener?” She counseled me to use pot instead of alcohol when I needed to relax and said it had wonderful health benefits that we were all missing. I always listen to my doctor’s advice, don’t you?

Thank you for this book. I appreciate the mythbusting section and also the handy guide to refuting traditional arguements agains legalization. As more of our elected representatives have at the very least tried marihuana and more likely have spent some time getting to know its finer qualities, the hysteria is subsiding. Obama said that the number one question on his campaign website was “Will you legalize medicinal marijuana?” and look, he sent a strong signal that he heard.

Honey, the herb in the Nam would knock your dick in the dirt. . .of course you had to have one!

I inhaled….. frequently .
Barrack Obama

I seem to recall from my readings that one of the big reasons for making it illegal was that Harry Anslinger was jealous of J Edgar’s empire.

And even folks in small town places like Kentucky were quietly conversant witht he idea of “smoking rope”

Personally, I like the smell. Cookies are nice, too.

Actually I believe Steve refutes this claim in the book. Steve?

John – Thanks for asking about the key statistics. Here are a couple that are very easy to convey…

1. According to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control, about 33,000 death in the United States annually are attributable to the health effects of alcohol (that doesn’t include accidents). The comparable figure for marijuana is ZERO.

2. The U.S. Department of Justice reports that 25-30 percent of violent crimes are alcohol-related, meaning the person was under the influence of alcohol. Marijuana, on the other hand, is not considered a significant contributing factor to violent crime. It is only marijuana PROHIBITION that contributes to crime.

Well, um, that too.
I have to say, I’m fairly certain there are people here who smoke and there are people here who drink. My guess is that the folks who smoke don’t tangle with other commenters the way the drinkers do.
Just a blond guess.

Yea, that shit is a marketing ploy.

Ooops. Hold on a minute while I make my martini.

Hell, I don’t do any of it and I stay on the shit list!

Thanks for the reply. I need to get the book and read it.

I would also have to have a dick.

Not my shit list. I think we’re on the same list, tho.

I think that’s what I said.

Steve while I was reading the first couple of chapters, I was remembering A Child’s Garden of Grass (A Pre-Legalization Comedy) from the early ’70s (both a comedy album and book – I still own the album)

Are you familiar with it? It really did hit on a lot of the points you make on effects with comedy.

Mommybrain – Thanks for sharing the story about your doctor. It is nice that you got this kind of advice. Many people today would considering it shocking to hear about a doctor suggesting that their patients use marijuana instead of alcohol. Anyone who is shocked needs to educate themselves about the facts, because it is excellent advice — if you care about longevity. :-)

Steve, John, How do you think the DOJ memos that came out recently will actually be enforced?

Yes, it is. Sorry for being so dry. Duh, me.

I would be shocked to hear a doctor advise someone to use alcohol as well though. Especially considering how much heart disease, diabetes, liver disease etc… they see because of alcohol.

positive vibration

As I am trying to catch up, let me go back to John’s question about the timing of a legal market for marijuana in this country. The short answer is that it seems like we are getting very close — although the final push will probably be tough. It is not likely to happen at the federal level, but rather at the state level. We see backers of an initiative working to get something on the ballot in California next year. The demographics might not be right for victory in 2010, but 2012 could be an historic year in a state — or two or three…

When I was pregnant, a friend of mine was in a car crash, rather than prescribe pharms, the doctor told her to smoke a little, for the relaxation.
Not saying anything more.

Yea but they always have these conflicting studies about alcohol being good for the ticker.

Sorry, I was preggers, and so was the woman who’s doctor recommended smoking instead of other drugs to calm her and her back problems down.
A calmer, gentler nation of people. If only.

demi, one of the sections of the book deals with that myth, Not Your Father’s Pot, that the pot today is so much stronger. Studies indicate about 2% stronger since they’ve been keeping track. Of course, the placebo effect might just be at work here – People believe this myth so they feel higher.

Another little-known fact: the apparent ability of cannabis to regenerate brain cells – not destroy, but cause to grow anew. Amazing.

Oh, indeed. This is stuff that was all known decades ago. That, and the fact that the therapeutic ratio for weed is something like 40,000 — compared to digitalis, which is around 2 — which means that the difference between the amount needed to have a therapeutic effect and the amount needed to kill you is so high that you’d literally have to smoke or eat your weight in pot all at once for it to work. And if you smoke or eat that much of anything all at once, you’re going to have problems no matter what.

It doesn’t matter how strong it is. It’s not an addictive or harmful substance, so a little more is okay.

Yeah, true…

That’s what I’m talkin bout!

BevW asked about the recent DOJ memo and how it is likely to be enforced. I think the memo pretty much summed that up, in the sense that the federal government will probably stay out of the way if individuals are complying with state law. But that’s the complicating factor. State law is not always crystal clear. We are seeing that now in LA, where the DA is claiming that 100 percent of the dispensaries are acting illegally (not in compliance with state law). But the state Attorney General has seemed to say that these dispensaries are in compliance with the law. There is a lot of gray area, but the bottom line is that DOJ has said that it will respect state laws and the state should now be able to establish systems that are regulated and workable — and this, of course, will benefit patients.

A lot of cash-strapped states are going to be wondering why they can’t simply regulate and tax the bejeezus out of the stuff (though not tax it so high that folks simply grow their own and avoid the revenooers).

Exactly because the law is pretty clear. Cultivation is definitely not possession.

Could be. Or, maybe I was just smoking really bad shit then.
I took my son and some of his friends camping with me a coupla years ago. I took a little walkie with the boys and they shared. Knocked my freaking socks off. Maybe because I hadn’t smoked in so long.
All I know is back then, we would sit around in a circle, pass a couple and then practice a bunch of songs. The son in question lived with me for a while when he was in his early 20’s, and all they did after smoking was stare at the ceiling and then play video games.
Just my personal experience. I still think pot should be legalized and that it is probably safer than alcohol.
If only we didn’t have so much to run away from.

Let me add on the “not your father’s marijuana” string… The other factor to consider when talking about marijuana being stronger than in the past is that the components haven’t changed, it just means that growers have produced certain strains that are higher in THC. But it is the same THC. Yes, a person would get more high from such a strain IF they used the same amount. But instead most people just use less. And, as mentioned, the truth is that there is still very little harm associated with higher THC marijuana — and certainly far less harm than from alcohol.

When I was in Hawaii, I came home for Christmas one year and brought some of the Islands home with me. I was sharing with my friends who were all used to big ol’ joints rolled with ez-widers. I rolled this little pin. They were poking each other and laughing and asking how that was going to affect all of us.

Afterwards, they were close to incapacitated while I was fine but that was because I had been smoking it and was used to it. Which is also why I rolled it smaller than I might have with my Hawaiian friends.

During this lull, for those of you interested in how the coverage of marijuana has changed over the past few years, I encourage you to check out — after this Salon, of course :-) — this article from Marie Claire magazine about “Stiletto Stoners.” It talks about how many professional women now prefer marijuana over alcohol.

Marijuana is a gateway drug in the sense that it is often sold by people who sell other, more dangerous illegal drugs. Legalize marijuana and that goes away. Keep it illegal and you’ve got a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Right ee o. I not only believe you, but I agree. Tho, we can become addicted to anything. Like, the Lake for example.
It’s in the mind. Some of it. Other things really are made to be addictive. Like cigarettes.

Steve, did you look at any of the LeDain Commission results published by the Canadian government back in the late /60s? Because those came to the conclusion that marijuana was indeed a lot safer than alcohol. They even had people get high and drive (simulated) cars. The results were that they ‘devil weed’ was so benign that it should be legalized immediately.

That ‘immediately’ has been imminent for forty years now. Every time the Canadian government gets close they crumble to pressure from the US. To wit, “if you legalize marijuana we’ll be forced to inspect every truck and car that crosses the border. What do you think that will do to commerce?”

It’s frickin’ blackmail. It’s also a ham-fisted intrusion on our sovereignty. ‘Cause, you know, we’re a sovereign entity (little jab at Bush the Lesser there for those who get the reference.)

thank you for this book. in my 24 years on the street, i never had to fight anyone under the influence of marijuana.

I know this isn’t a focus of your research but I’m curious about attitudes in the Near and Middle East, especially India. Do you know if herb has a sacred history there? Are the laws there also draconian?

So, those billboards that say driving buzzed or high is the same as driving drunk are lies? No! I hate it when I’m lied to.

Marijuana puts me to sleep. Very awkward until I finally figured it out.

The Us has the highest per capita rate of incarceration in the world with
21 % of those held in state facilities for drug offences .

You could probably write a chapter. Then and now.

SBT – Thanks for the comment. We didn’t discuss LeDain, but instead cited the 2002 Canadian Senate report (to be more current) along with other international studies. It also noted that marijuana is safer than alcohol — and I believe it even concluded that marijuana should be legal for anyone 16(!) and older.

Seems like I recall studies where a little white mouse is forced to smoke 25 kilos of purple-haired flying thunderphuck in a 10 hour period, motivation and short term memory suffers. Proof of the dangers of pot.

I’ve done alcoholism and I’ve done pothead. Give me the latter any day.

Our local (SFBayArea) newscast had a report about ten days ago saying that TSA won’t screen or confiscate your medical marijuana at Oakland or SF airports. I was really confused, since TSA is federal, but the report said it was “airport policy” dictated to TSA. TSA says they’ve followed the policy this year, and do not report a traveler’s pot to the authorities in the arriving jurisdiction.

This all happened before the new DoJ memo Friday. Does anyone understand how that could have happened?

Thank you for this important book, which I look forward to buying and reading, and for chatting with us today. Thanks also for the great intro!

Suzanne – Thank you so much for chiming in. We LOVE hearing from former law enforcement officials. I am not sure if you know, but the foreward to the book was written by Norm Stamper, former chief of police in Seattle. He talks about exactly what you said — he, and all other officers he asks, cannot recall a time when they had to deal with a violent person on marijuana, but violents drunks are almost a nightly occurence. This is an extremely important part of the book. It is not just that marijuana is safer for the user; allowing people to use marijuana instead of alcohol could actually make our communities safer.

Totally unprofessional opinion story here. Those who know me understand that I have a functionally autistic son. (the younger of the stoner boy) He got that genetically from his father. His father did really poorly in school until high school and then began to excell. It took me a long time, but I finally realized that when he started smoking pot, he was able to focus…to overcome the autism and actually learn.
Unprofessional, but true story.

Wasn’t there a Southern cop a few years back who had a video showing people how to avoid getting busted? I know doctors, lawyers, teachers, cops and firemen who have inhaled. Frequently.

I am currently faced with the dilemma – how to talk to my Sprout about drugs without lying to him or encouraging him. I have no problem warning him of other drugs’ dangers.

John Holowach is working on his internet connection and will return soon.

K, what’s with the “omg now it’s x1000000 times stronger than when you were a kid” thing? Always seemed like bullshit in my experience. Even the usually non-hysteria-bandwagon Ann Landers parroted that shit.

norm’s foreword is what drew me into the book — and that was also my experience. i found your book fascinating and would highly recommend it to anyone.

One difficulty getting medical marijuana here is the connection to federal grants for teaching hospitals, and the crackdown on prescribers. I got my first prescription from my MD at UCSF, but she wouldn’t renew it. Not because I didn’t need my medicine, but because the University honchos were worried about their federal grants being cut off if their doctors were prescribing legal pot under state law.

I wonder if other federal agencies like DHS and the CDC will follow DoJ’s lead on medical marijuana.

How old are you and were you in Nam?
My own, personal experience tells me its much stronger than the 60’s and 70’s. You can call my experience bs, but it’s not.

I should add that my doctor was, of course, perfectly happy to prescribe powerful narcotics for pain management instead.

Sorry for disappearing. I tried to find an article for Teddy about the TSA policy and my Firefox froze. My understanding is that what TSA agents due with respect to marijuana is based on local jurisdiction. But, keep in mind, just because you can fly out of Oakland or San Fran with it, doesn’t mean that it will be acceptable where you land…

A friend recently took a relative to the airport and got a security pass to wait in the boarding area, so she had to go through security. She was horrified to discover, upon returning to her car, that she had a small quantity of something smokable and a small smoking device in her purse, which they either missed entirely or chose to ignore. She thought missed entirely, but based on what you say, maybe not.

I’d like to recommend a book I read back in HS when I was considering whether to go the pot route or try alcohol like a lot of my contemporaries*. Drugs, Society, and Personal Choice was written by Harold Kalant and Oriana Josseau Kalant, who were on the LeDain Commission. It’s a lot more approachable than the official report, (I read that too — both the interim and final versions) and contains all of the essential information, plus it didn’t avoid coming to conclusions based on the facts extracted by the study. It may be hard to get in the US, but I know some copies are still extant.

* – yes, I really was that deliberate about it, at the age of 18. Weird, eh?

My police officer ex-gf always said she knew it was god compared to alc, said if it was legal she herself would do it instead of beer, and went out of her way to not bust people with a busted tailight whose car smelled of mj and were otherwise doing nothing wrong.

The TSA guy on-air was funny about that; he had a wry smile when he said, “You don’t usually find screeners at arrival gates.”

Probably a big stoner himself. *g*

As a good citizen, you should probably turn your friend in to the Government.

It was explained upthread, basically more THC, not different just more.

I brought some Hawaiian red-hair from the coast to OKC back in my high-school days. A local head was offended when I told him his “Colombian” was commercial mexican pot. I gave him a puff of mine and was greatly pleased to watch his head explode. Methinks distribution is greatly improved, as I am seeing high quality weed here in OKC on a regular basis now. As a side note–I no longer smoke pot because as a truck driver I am subject to random drug tests, and pot stays with you for a long time. But I can get hammered with hooch.

Part of the purpose of our book is to point out the widespread hypocrisy in our society with respect to marijuana and alcohol. Here is a column by progressive author and columnist David Sirota about the Michael Phelps situation from early this year and the recent announcement that Lance Armstrong has signed a deal to promote beer. He mentions the book in the column.

I’m almost 60, RVN 68-69 Korea 67-68. Your experience is your experience. Which experience is bullshit won’t get solved here now will it?

I have another friend who recently had a small stroke. Her doctor offered to refer her to a specialist who prescribes, and recommended she see him, to keep the blood pressure down. He says new research shows an initial rise in BP at the moment smoked but subsequent reduction, by up to 30 pts. Eating baked goods, he says, reduces or removes even the initial spike.

She will take him up on his offer.

The experiment found exactly what I experience myself. If you drink and drive, your inhibitions are lowered and if you ignore the speedometer for even a couple of minutes, you’ll look at it and see that you’re going 15-20 kph faster than you thought. When I smoke up, I look down and see that I’m going 10-15 kph below the speed limit.

Not that I ever drive after either drinking or smoking. Anyway, I haven’t had more than one drink at any time for years. ;-)

I watched a show on tv about the mexican cartels growing pot here in the California mountains. The show said that the pot was being laced with all kind of chemicals. Could that also be part of a (perceived) stronger influence?

Here’s the report from EyewitlessNews Five:

OAKLAND (CBS 5) ―

Air travelers are not allowed to bring most liquids, along with weapons and explosives past the security checkpoint. But you can bring medical marijuana, if you’re traveling out of two Bay Area airports. It’s not a case of security looking the other way, it’s official airport policy.

Medical marijuana patients boarding flights out of Oakland and San Francisco International airports are allowed to take up to 8 ounces of pot along, but at their own risk.

SBT – Seems like you have been on a “marijuana is safer” kick for quite a while. We hope that millions of Americans will read our book for the same reasons you read Drugs, Society, and Personal Choice.

i’m 55, sure wasn’t in Nam. i’m ignorant on the truth of the claim, but since it was such a mantra of the prohibitionist scolds, i took it for bullshit. i must say at a band gig a few years back somebody gave me a doob they said was from Humboldt County. jesus, i practically tripped half the night on two hits of that thing.

We are big Sirota fans in these parts. Thanks!

Yep, that’s pretty much the same thing I was describing in #61 above. I was introduced to Hawaiian bud about a month and a half before I actually got over there. That wonderful level of sweetness versus the ragg weed affects of your standard Mexican/’Colombian’

That’s wonderful news.

Edibles are super. Labelling is important, of course, when storing them at home. So tempting to everyone!

No it won’t. Thank you. Was I being argumentitave?
I trust myself. That’s all.
I’m going to bake a devils’ food cake now.

With respect to chemicals being used by Mexican drug cartels in the mountains possibly contributing to the perceived increased strength of marijuana, I doubt that is the case. The stronger marijuana is generally marijuana grown indoors hydroponically.

wrt Oilfield guy’s comment – drug testing. SUCKS that all the really bad shit is gone from your system pronto, and mj lingers.

Does the book address the piss-test-industrial complex and mentality that we’ve allowed to become yet another obstacle?

but since it was such a mantra of the prohibitionist scolds, i took it for bullshit.
Enough said.

It’s the time of year for the extraordinary pot busts in the mountains hereabouts, alongside gun seizures and fire blame. Also, our new SF police chief has begun an illegal grow-house crackdown. The media laps up these circuses, without ever questioning the motives behind any of it.

Don’t you think the American anti-pot industry is so big now that it won’t ever let pot be legal?

Here is another reason for optimism if you would like to see marijuana laws changed in this country. Gallup release a poll last Monday showing support for marijuana legalization at an all-time high: 44 percent nationally and 53 percent in the west.

Teddy asks a great question about whether the anti-marijuana industry is so big that it won’t ever let marijuana be legal. The reason I have so much hope today is that the marijuana industry is becoming incredibly strong itself. You should read this recent cover story in Fortune magazine. It is actually entitled, “How Marijuana Became Legal.” Similar stories have appeared in the Wall Street Journal and elsewhere.

I think we’re near the tipping point on this. After that point, the AA-PI will loose control.

I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised by the DoJ medical pot memo, in the face of the easily anticipated race-based blowback from the right; quite brave, actually.

nope

Best of luck for the make marijuana legal people.
We could also then build a hemp empire too.

drinking is more varied than pot. You get all these mixed drinks.

If you want to get high – pot is better.

But high from pot is no safer than high from booze as far as killing other folks is concerned. What you do to your own body is of no interest to me as long as I don’t have to deal with it.

Let me just add about the anti-marijuana industry… There is no doubt that law enforcement has a vested interest in keeping marijuana illegal. This is why the “marijuana is safer than alcohol” message is so important. We must all be vocal about criticizes members of law enforcement who want to continue punishing marijuana users when they KNOW that alcohol is the cause of far more violence on the streets and, sadly, on the domestic front, as well. Every minute spent on anti-marijuana activities is a minute not being spent on actually making our communities safer. If this argument is about how we can all be safer — including our daughters — we will win.

toss in cell phones

oh, by the way, i work for the fed gov, but happily the branch that has oddly/conveniently exempted itself from drug testing. any guesses as to which branch? (hint: they also have the power to vote themselves pay raises and socialized health care)

Steve, John,
Do you know about LEAP, Law Enforcement Against Prohibition?

http://copssaylegalize.blogspot.com/

Back in my military high school days of the late ’60s, we were bombarded with the “marijuana and all drugs are evul” message. One time they brought some addicts in from the Narcotics Hospital in Lexington, KY to speak to us.

The show went on and the folks were all telling us about how bad heroin and downers were. Then one cadet asked about marijuana and the guy that had been doing most of the talking responded “it’s the least problem drug of all”

Even then some folks were trying to get the message out.

Edit: To say that the folks in charge were chagrined at this statement would be an understatement.

;)~

SanderO – Thanks for speaking up. I don’t mean to single you out, but I read this sentence you wrote: “But high from pot is no safer than high from booze as far as killing other folks is concerned.”

That is flat-out untrue and there is ample evidence that alcohol is a contributing factor in a large number of homicides in this country — including murders of spouses and partners. Alcohol is also a contributing factor in hundreds of thousands of sexual assaults in this country.

Perhaps you are only referring to traffic accidents, but even there the evidence seems to show that driving under the influence of marijuana is less likely to lead to a traffic fatality. Of course, driving under the influence of either should be avoided.

Was your provocative title, including the word “driving,” chosen specifically to engage the against-drunk-driving community? I found it quite clever.

sander is a total square, don’t pay no attention to him! :)

Does Congress exempt its transportation-related and law enforcement personnel too? Just trying to plumb the depths of their hypocrisy…

I was referring to driving and operating machinery. I don’t have any idea of murders or aggression stats for the two.

Stoned people are not good drivers.

Sorry, everyone! Time Warner is the devil, but I’m back now. Oh boy, so many things to respond to…

Sharkbabe – Yes, the book discussed drug testing. We explain that it is one more factor that “drives people to drink” when they otherwise might enjoy using marijuana instead. I saw your follow up about being in the non-tested branch of government. As you know, drug testing is a very serious thing that executive branch employees don’t really mess around with. Thus, we have an entire branch of government being told that if they want to relax or unwind, they must use alcohol instead of marijuana. This is harmful to their health and it needs to stop.

I think they’ll be enforced, but only strictly to the letter of the law. There was a post on, IIRC, Volokh a day or so ago about how the smallest violation could allow for the feds to come down on them. While I’m hopeful that’s not what’s going to happen, I fear it will.

Witness the LA’s top prosecutor’s war on the dispensaries. It’s going to get ugly one way or another.

Teddy – The title was not intended to tweak the drunk driving community. Rather, it was merely a play on the phrase “driving me to drink,” since that is literally what our society is doing. We hope you still consider it clever. :-)

Let’s take it at face value and assume that it has gotten stronger, maybe even much stronger. People will adjust based on their own preferences and tolerance.

For comparison, a mug full of beer and mug full of vodka will be two completely different levels of intoxication. Same for marijuana…people will adjust.

Booze is bad but wine is the nectar of the gods.

The problem with all these intoxicants is that people who use them often have no self control.

I concur. People should avoid driving under the influence of ANYTHING. But if I could wave a wand and have all the drunk drivers be high on pot instead, I would do it. The fatalities would plummet, I guarantee.

The problem with drugs and booze is when you mix them socially and in public, where people like to kick back and then they drive and kill someone.

Um – a certain friend of mine has driven stoned countless times for decades. I’m not sayin that means it’s fine for everybody. But it IS a fact that mj does not impair the motor brain function a la booze.

I love the LEAP guys! The introduction to Steve’s book was written by former Seattle PD chief and now LEAP member Norm Stamper.

Before we come to the end of this Salon, I want to make sure that I encourage everyone not just to read the book, but to push the message as much as you can. Part of the justication behind the book is my own assessment of polling data showing that once people appreciate that marijuana is less harmful than alcohol, they support marijuana legalization at about a 70 percent rate. If you know someone who thinks marijuana is as bad as if not worse than alcohol, let them know the truth.

Steve:

Would you concur that the Aristotelian ideal of moderation in all things applies to both alcohol and marijuana alike? It’s been my feeling that the extremes lose the vast majority of the people in the middle, neither good nor bad, healthy or unhealthy.

Do you think corporate-owned media has been punked, made to run these absurd anti-pot ads, and therefore will not be receptive to a different message even as news? My question, I guess, is: how hard is it to get your safety message onto the so-called-liberal-media outlets?

This aspect alone just sickens me, Steve. It’s like with my cop gf. She had no choice but booze. I even think of certain tragic alcohol lives, e.g. Joan Kennedy or a zillion others, and what difference the choice of legal dope might have made early on. No drug dependency is good, but damn, between the two? – no contest!

If you want to educate others, here is a fun tool. It is something I helped create through my work at the Marijuana Policy Project. It is a Marijuana vs. Alcohol quiz that tests your knowledge of the relative harms. The fun part is that you have to take a shot if you get a question wrong. At the end you get your blood alcohol content and find out how that would affect you. It is called the “Potentially Deadly Alcohol and Marijuana Quiz” because you could die if you had 10 shots in a short amount of time.

http://marijuana-alcoholquiz.com/home/

I’ll echo this. The book is well written, thoughtful, and excellent for newcomer and veteran of the drug war alike.

As an aside to that question, did you ever hear of the madness that the drug czar during the Clinton years performed on television networks?

This is what I tell people when they say that pot is a gateway drug.
“So is oxygen.”

Teddy – I think the corporate-owned media can be won over easily. You want to know how? Look at almost any significant — and positive — article about marijuana on a major online news outlet. I would bet good money that they article will be one of the most read articles on the site. They are learning this and will write to drive traffic to the site. The editor of Marie Claire said on the Today show after the “stiletto stoners” article came out that the response from readers was very favorable. She said something like, this is what our readers think.

I’m afraid that marijuana will continue to be a prohibited substance in the US as long as you have for-profit jails. That is such a reprehensible situation it’s hard to know where to begin to condemn it.

If you want marijuana to be legal, or even to stop having 5X as many people in jail proportionally than the rest of the world, I’d think you should tackle that problem first.

ditto — it was easy read and taught me things i was unaware of.

As we come to the end of this lively Book Salon,

Steve, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us discussing your new book, marijuana, laws and society.

John, Thank you very much for Hosting today’s great Book Salon.

Everyone, if you have not bought a copy of Steve’s book yet, here is a link.

Thanks all.

When I was a kid I thought we’d be so past this bullshit fight in just a few years. Now I look forward to at least in my lifetime. Let alone restoring industrial hemp. The times is turning, faster finally. I’ll be reading this book and talking it up. Thank you Steve.

Sort of like campaign finance reform or health care reform. Large amounts of money can create inhumane treatment.

With respect to moderation, I guess I agree that is a solid philosophy. And if you are talking about political impact, that is certainly true. Our message is not about people going crazy and using marijuana all the time. We are simply saying that people should be able to relax after work with a joint instead of a martini if that is what they prefer.

Thanks for letting me host, internet problems notwithstanding.

And if anyone is interested in my documentary, you can get it through http://www.truehigh.com, Amazon, Netflix, iTunes, or that shady guy on the corner that might be legit.

Oh I agree entirely. And I also think that more people need to “come out of the closet” regarding their pot use, so to speak. It’s starting to happen, but the image of the hippie, skeevy stoner still persists, and it’s one that needs to be rectified.

Thank you, Steve, for this fun discussion. thanks, john, for hosting.

Sharkbabe – If you ever want to help push this professionally, look me up at MPP. The tide is turning and we need more leaders on the Hill — both openly and behind the scenes. – Steve

I will close this by quoting:

“For years and years, Arj Barker was high on life, but eventually, I built up a tolerance.” — Arj Barker

Thanks to everyone who participated or just read along. I had a great time — although my fingers are tired. :-) Thanks to FireDogLake for inviting me, to Bev for setting it up, and to John for hosting.

- Steve

Here, belatedly, is a link to Drugs, Society, and Personal Choice.

Got kicked off myself, just wanted to come back and say thanks to the authors and the host for a wonderful FDL Book Salon. Thanks to Bev, too, who does so much heavy lifting in the background to make these Salons happen.

And all hail the mods and tech crew!

That doesn’t sound like equal justice to me.

Rev Lauren Unruh
THC Ministry

Lawmakers and police chiefs are good people to target with the truth. It is also good to remind them pot prohibition is based on racial profiling, perhaps they don’t want to do that.

Why don’t potheads have equal rights with wine drinkers?

Because christians don’t want them to. They even have a bible verse for us, Exodus 22:18 “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” I guess using herbal medicine (witchcraft) interfered with the power of the pope.

Well this is America, we are supposed to have freedom of religion and be free from religious persecution.

I can’t imagine Obama doing anything about it. The T-party mob will lynch him if they are not doing it already. I say this with a heavy heart.
But the republicans could. MONEY TALKS. Talk about State revenues, talk about maintaining prisons, talk about organized crime and how much it costs etc. Tie it with studies “alcohol vs weed” and also promote testing not at work but on the highway as with alcohol. The longer the economy is staying bad the money angle will become more and more persuasive. I’ve been a non-user for a while but my son is a routine user. I need to protect him from this madness and ignorance.
Arnold is our man.