The acknowledgement that there is not a legitimate government in Afghanistan to partner with in the latest episode of COINdistas Go Wild is certainly a step in the right direction but an even deeper look is needed.
That look might begin with the report from Lt. Col. Daniel Davis, former liaison officer between the Combined Forces Command – Afghanistan (CFC-A) and the Central Command. Davis’ report is based on both his own experience in Afghanistan and the thoughts of fellow officers who have also served there. Gareth Porter brought the report to public attention and points out that Davis “argues that it is already too late for US forces to defeat the insurgency:”
“Many experts in and from Afghanistan warn that our presence over the past eight years has already hardened a meaningful percentage of the population into viewing the United States as an army of occupation which should be opposed and resisted,” writes Davis.
Providing the additional 40,000 troops that Gen McChrystal reportedly requested “is almost certain to further exacerbate” that problem, he warns.
You can download the report here.
Tom Englehardt of Tom Dispatch’s latest post is an even clearer warning to Obama and his circle as they reconsider Afghanistan:
Let me suggest just one lesson that seems to be on no one else’s mind at a moment when a key “option” being offered in Washington — especially by Democrats not eager to see tens of thousands more U.S. troops heading Afghanistan-wards — is to arm and “train” ever more thousands of Afghans into a vast army and police security force for a government that hardly exists. Based on the last three decades in the region, don’t you think that we should pause and consider who exactly we may be arming and who exactly we may be supporting, and whether, given those 30 years of history, we have the slightest idea what we’re doing?
Englehardt concludes, after a superb review of our experiences since the beginning of “the Long War:”
There is a record here. It’s not a pretty one. It’s not a smart one. Someone should take it into account before we plunge in and arm our future enemies one more time.
Of course, the real voices we should listen to on Afghanistan are those of the people who we claim to be liberating. This week another two Afghan civilians died at our hands:
GHAZNI, Afghanistan – An Afghan woman and a child were killed in a joint NATO-Afghan operation against insurgents in Afghanistan on Friday, sparking a protest by a group of angry villagers…
Reuters television images from the scene showed two bodies including that of a child lying on the floor of a house as a group of Afghans huddled together and cried over the bodies.
A group of 100 angry Afghans could be seen later in the day marching through a nearby village shouting “Death to America” and “Death to (President) Hamid Karzai”.
An earlier TomDispatch by William Astore, reminded us in a discussion of the prescient views of Norman Mailer during our Vietnam COIN venture and this lesson is the most important one that I hope the Obama administration will consider:
As Mailer put it, with a different twist: “Bombing a country at the same time you are offering it aid is as morally repulsive as beating up a kid in an alley and stopping to ask for a kiss.”



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Thanks Siunshine, for bringing it home once again. You and Greenwald are spot on today.. as usual.
There is no justification for any mission these horrible people in DC are discussing. We simply must stop ourselves.
The U.S. military has been in Afghanistan for 8 years. How could it be views as anything but an occupation??? The military situation worsens daily, and even the U.S. puppet is deligitmized. Geez.
Of course, Rahm is probably just like his boss. Sez words that make sense then procedes to do the opposite.
Tom Englehardt’s piece reminds us of how very long we’ve been messing around in Afghanistan – it’s very worth reading.
The USA has to stop flooding the world with weapons which are used in all sorts of regional and tribal disputes.
The problem with stopping this is that this is one of the main, if not the main export of US products into the world which brings dollars back. And it is largely the private sector which is producing these weapons. The weapons mfgs are where the retired military go to cash out and use their contacts in the pentagon the steer contracts to their businesses.
War is a business and aside from the fact that we have no business being there and arming and training men to fight is a very bad idea, the administration can do little to stop private enterprise from trading weapons. That’s ain’t amurikan to interfere with big bidness.
As many times as I’ve posted this Q, I’ve never received a satisfactory A. So here I go again. The standard version of the Soviet experience in Afghanistan is that they won. They even held on in the face of large scale opposition from U.S.-Saudi-Pak aid to the opposition, until the U.S. supplied stingers. So how come the vaunted U.S. military lost? Not as good as the Soviets? Who also did much more nation building than the U.S. Women’s lib occurred during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan (leading to severe backlash once the Soviets were driven out, to be sure, but the U.S. didn’t seem to mind the Taliban back then).
U.S. policy in Afghanistan is losing in every way, shape and form. Such incompetence is hard to fathom.
But, but Afghanistan is the good war…
It seemed like a good idea at the time.
Not really, when you consider that the guys who “planned” the mission were thinking more about the victory parades they’d receive than what to do after driving the Taliban out.
And then it comes back to the question of “What happens when we leave?” The Taliban now control more of the country then they did when we started this whole shindig 8 years ago. If we go, aren’t we essentially making the situation worse for everyone involved (especially Afghan civilians) and leaving an even more destabilized state in one of the most unstable regions on the planet?
Normally saying that here would get you branded a troll but does he really mean it? Can he walk away from such a public statement without political damage?
Rahm if anyone would would be the type to try.
In response to which of my points?
The iron-clad counter to your “what will happen if the U.S. leaves” is 8 years of solid evidence that if the U.S. stays it will make the situation worse.
we are about to get our butts kicked again like nam
imperialism has a price: bankruptucy
if not afghan then iran we must always have an enemy to fight and to fear
our mega size military demands that we do
if americans are nothing else they are imperialists
we love our super power status and dominance in the world
we will pay any amount of money to keep that status
universal health care for all you folks nuts we have to spend our money to keep our superpower status texas style
he will send the troops he has a couple of years to play around here with treasure and lives
then before election promise to bring them home
that is american politics at its best
in a dumbed downed society conditioned to be war mongers it will work like a charm
700 hundred military bases around the world says it all about americans war mongering and imperialism
most americans dont have a clue they are war mongers they believe they are the good guys in the world
if the world has any balls they would put we americans up for war crimes
instead they want to sell us their stuff$$$$$$$$$$$$
wars for profits can be a whole lot of profits for the few
Funny the GOP only listens to the troops on the ground when they agree with them. The Media only reports the GOP side of things so its no surprise I am only hearing of this report now on the blogs.
One reason might be that the U.S. occupation began from scratch as opposed to building on the Soviet experience. To the Taliban however, the past 30 years is all one linear narrative with the result that the insurgency we face is much more experienced and sophisticated in tactics and strategy than the foe the Soviets faced.
I’m just throwing it out there for consideration, I’m certain there are a multitude of other and likely more accurate reasons.
To counter Rahm, I would point to this October 6 NYT story:
Rahm and Obama are not talking about leaving or even reducing troop levels. It is more about low end staying where we are now or escalating further.
Funny Gen McChrystal and the rest of the Pentagon brass never said one word about increasing the troop levels for the 8 years of the Bush presidency. Funny they decided to get a Spine now.
They ask for more troops when the majority of Americans want the war over. Classic Bush tactic ask for twice as much as you expect to get and make that the topic of discussion.
i wish obama would take his counsel about what to do in afghanistan from people like from malalai joya.
So the Taliban learned from the Soviet occupation, but the U.S. didn’t? Under the Soviet occupation the Taliban were supported by the U.S.-Saudi-Paks. They’re now so much better that they can defeat a purportedly better military with no outside help?
We cannot afford this war unless John McCain and Gen McChrystal get all the GOPers on board to support a tax on the rich to pay for it!
I gave at the gas pump!
I’d be willing to bet the Obama Administration ends up committing half as many troops as McChrystal requested, essentially kicking the can down the road to be revisited next year.
Of course, McChrystal is actually asking for 80,000 as the best alternative … the number keeps growing!
As to when we started in Afghanistan, read Tom Englehardt:
An even more reasonable date, however, might be July 3, 1979, when, at the behest of national security advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Jimmy Carter signed “the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul.” In other words, six months before the actual Soviet invasion of Afghanistan began, the U.S. threw its support to the mujahideen, the Afghan anti-Soviet fundamentalist jihadists.
As Brzezinski later described it, “[O]n the same day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained that in my opinion this aid would lead to a Soviet military intervention.” Asked whether he regretted his actions, given the results so many years after, he replied: “Regret what? The secret operation was an excellent idea. It drew the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? On the day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter, saying, in essence: ‘We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam War.’”
Don’t remember where I read it, but there has already been a significant “stealth” U.S. escalation, both U.S. military and contractors. Something of the order of 20,000.
The second we leave all those trained solders will sell the guns we gave them to Ossama if they need cash. Best to leave no weapons behind and let the Afghan government fall.
Oh, and the father of one of the recently killed U.S. military is complaining that the coin rules of engagement are killing U.S. troops. That ought to play well among the wingnuts.
80,000 troops Holy Shit! Bush wanted to refight Vietnam I hope Obama has enough sense to pull out now!
Hugh, Do you have any links to likely maps of pipeline routes from the Caspian region south through Afghanistan and Pakistan?
I believe that is plausible.
They have not yet defeated the U.S. and NATO forces. They might only be capable of achieving a stalemate, which could be all they need… eventually the occupier grows weary and leaves. Anyway, I think the key word in your statement may be “purportedly.” As in many other human endeavors, in battle there is no substitute for genuine enthusiasm. People defending their homeland have a much greater personal stake in the conflict.
This mess is Viet Nam revisited. Except the kids aren’t being drafted.
Lesson learned.
this may be helpful Eureka:
http://www.alternet.org/world/139983/pipeline-istan:_everything_you_need_to_know_about_oil,_gas,_russia,_china,_iran,_afghanistan_and_obama/
Pepe’s been on this from the beginning
To be fair Bush, Darth the Neocons and any General who wanted to keep his job during the Bush years didn’t. We Lefties were saying this was a disaster for years I think the months of fighting after Mission Accomplished was declared was the turning point for America.
We gave Bush a chance to win the war unlimited resources men etc which he wasted using to invade Iraq. The Dems did not stop him.
Now we are even more determined to end this even if we have to vote out some Dems!
coin rules?
Possibly the only lesson the U.S. learned from Vietnam. Forced conscription fuels opposition at home.
You are missing my main point, which is that the Soviets won, decisively, and the U.S. is losing. The Afghans were defending their homeland against the Soviet invaders just as much as against the U.S. invaders.
Yet kids are not being drafted yet. 80 thousand troops is a lot to keep in the field and if Iraq or Iran heats up well.
I found the video pretty clear – there is no “win” possible when you look in these people’s faces after their neighbors were killed. This was during another one of those night raids that we supposedly stopped because they too often lead to just this result. We appear in a village in the middle of night – and expect a friendly welcome?
Coin=counterinsurgency. Point in dispute is that if the U.S. bombs wedding parties (i.e., bombs at all), it pisses off the locals and loses the hearts and minds (LOL) in the coin fight. The father in question is pissed because his dead son was left without air support when he needed it. (At least that’s what I remember of the news item. Details could differ from my memory, but that’s the gist of it.)
The same thing that happened when the Soviets pulled out, and when the British lost two wars there in the 19th century, and when Alexander the Great had to pull out:
They go back to being a lot of tribes with warlords.
I wish that these bright people would actually spend some time reading history before they blithely go into other countries believing that they know everything.
(Book-pimping: Frank Holt’s In the Land of Bones is very useful for getting some idea of why invading Afghanistan was a bad idea.)
There’s a battle going on for Obama’s brain.
On one side: Gates, McChrystal and Hillary Clinton, who all advocate a ramp-up.
On the other: Joe Biden (and now perhaps Rahm) and virtually the whole of the foreign service experts who have clues, who all advocate cutting a deal with those Taliban factions that look to be the most amenable to such, in exchange for their cooperation against Al Qaida.
Thank you..)
The war effort overall, the troop levels, the rules of engagement, and the objectives aren’t comparable.
I have not read as much on the subject as you but in my blind and blissful ignorance I am not certain I accept your premise that the Soviets won, or were winning until the single factor of the Stingers turned the tide.
Anyhoo, I am leaving to attend to some chores. We can revisit the subject at a later time if you wish.
Actually, the Soviets didn’t win in Afghanistan — it, as the mujahdeen (among whose numbers we find a young Osama bin Laden) and their US backers planned it, sapped the strength of the Soviet empire and eventually toppled it.
Bin Laden is now using a similar game plan against us, but he knew that since the US economy was bigger than the USSR’s, we needed to be in more than one war for this to work. Bush proved helpful beyond OBL’s wildest dreams by not only starting two wars, but also slashing revenues with his tax cuts.
U.S. now has many more troops (including contractors) than the Soviets had at the peak. So what’s the diff?
I wondered (and still do) how much of an increase in minority volunteers would sign up for war / military service under a president Obama. I’ve only heard numbers are up across the board, but that’s quickly attributed to the lack of jobs. Plus their must be more than a few war torn 5th deployment folks moving over from Iraq.
Damned if we go, and damned if we stay.
Heck of a choice, especially with India and Pakistan rattling sabres yet again (and the group claiming responsibility for blowing up several Iranian Revolutionary Guard leaders having connections to southern Pakistan).
Forget the Middle East – if anyplace is a flashpoint for the next global conflagration, it’s southwest Asia.
You didn’t read my comment correctly. I said the Soviets won UNTIL external support for the opposition set in, and even then, held on until the U.S. supplied Stingers.
Soviets topped out at more than 130,000. I don’t think we have that many deployed.
And Genghis Kahn.
Other links for pipeline maps:
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/oil_war.htm
http://www.policyalternatives.ca/reports/2008/06/ReportsStudies1906/
Yep. Many more including contractors. It was in an interview on antiwar.com but probably a month or so ago, so I probably won’t be able to find the link. I’ll give a look to see if I can find it though.
And I think McC asked for more troops than he needed knowing he would not get all he asked for, yet getting most of the troops he what he wanted.
I sent the prez an e-mail last week after seeing him talk about “pay as you go” health care and I asked if he was going to continue with war to fund it by “pay as you go”.
The USA cannot afford to feed, cloth and house their own people, so why are we throwing money away to other nations? It’s like me giving all my groceries to my neighbor while I go hungry. It just doesn’t make sense at all.
Well does serving in the army help get you and your family Citizenship? If so I admit well we might not need a draft but on the plus side Lou Dobbs and Glen Beck might be smart to shut up about immigrants then.
A Glen Beck inspired hate crime against immigrants might get Hispanic vets with experience in Iraq and Afghanistan angry.
okay. but one thing. What’s a contractor got to do with anything?
As far as I understand, “contractor” could mean cook, security guard, truck driver, plumber….
The dirty huge elephant in the room is that very, very, very few counterinsurgencies are ever successful. And I can’t think of a single one that was successful from military tactics only.
The only way to do it militarily is probably the way they tried to do it in certain villages in Vietnam. Destroy the village to save the village. I guess you just put in a million troops and kill everything that moves.
That’s about the only way you ever “win” a counterinsurgency militarily. Not sure what you’ve actually “won” though if you go that route.
By the way, much if not most young Taliban men are economically, not ideologically, driven, so the idea that we can’t find a way to reason with them instead of killing them is nonsense.
So lets rename it: VietAfghanistan
Found the link.
Yeah we can’t get healthcare now because its to expensive but we can afford two wars? I want polling do Americans want Healthcare for everyone or would they rather the money be spent on fighting two wars for years that we won’t ever win.
Anytime more troops are mentioned a war tax should be brought up.
So you think that the number of Soviet troops did NOT include their cooks, etc? Of course they did. Apple to apples. Review the link that I posted at 56.
eCAHN, the whole point of keeping the Soviets bogged down in Afghanistan — where their “win” only made them the mayors of Kabul at best (kinda like the situation that obtains now) — was to weaken their already-wobbly economy. That was explained in the link I posted:
Mind you, this was written in November of 2004, when our financial situation wasn’t as bad as it is now.
Respectfully, it’s not apples to apples. You separate out whatever “contractors” are available for combat and I’ll count them in with you.
Careful what you wish for.
I think researcher said it best above.
We just had an election last year, and the party that gave us these two wars, fucked up handling them beyond anyone’s imagination, led us into a near economic collapse, and yet got, what, 46-48% of the vote (damn my memory is bad).
The American public can be nearly as stoopid as the teabaggers at times. Either that or the vote counting machines really are being tweaked all the time.
All of that was after the Soviets had already won, which was my point.
You miss the point. The Soviet troop levels of 130,000 included cooks, truck drivers, etc. Because they did not employ contractors. The Soviet “troops” were NOT just fighters.
Thank you.
There really aren’t very many choices re Afghanistan – we either leave or we plan a permanent occupation.
The “war” is not winnable and as sorry as I feel for the citizens, especially the females, I say we leave – now.
I’m not prepared to continue to sacrifice our troops in a constant death trap.
First off, what’s the hurry to make this decision? You send in more troops now and they’ll be sitting in snow and mud for 6 months. Someone should tell McChrystal that no one launches an operation in Afghanistan until late Spring after the snow melts. In fact, we could be reducing troop levels since their can’t be large scale operations.
There was a period of “peace” in Afghanistan following WW2 up to the early 1970′s. Actually it was more of a stalemate by the Cold-War powers, with regional leaders (aka “warlords” in charge) and the King in Kabul. Each area was pretty much autonomous…and yes…there were large areas of the country with harsh ethnic feudal systems and local legal systems that incorporated sharia and ethnic traditions. Kabul was a bit of an island of modernism. But roads and dams were being built.
The army used to provide its own
they were called support troops.
The army also payed them less money than KBR gets to provide the same service making wars cheaper. If anything we should get rid of contractors and let the army do support work again. The Free market has failed to provide the savings Privatization promised, just like it failed to lower healthcare costs.
Also those support troops were governed by military law.
Look at last thread to see what happens when Contractors Go Wild!
Blackwater shooting Iraqi Civilians another example of high cost that cost us good will we can’t win a war if we lose the hearts and minds of the people.
We can’t afford a war waged with Private Contractors.
We do think alike Great Minds huh:)
Thank you for explaining in more detail something that I thought was obvious.
Real good point one I’m sure all the military experts on the TV will miss
I have to disagree with above contention that the Soviets “won” in any shape or form in Afghanistan. This was a ghastly mistake for them, and I fear we will follow suit. Hope it’s not too late.
I am if nothing eCHAN as my brother says but a Master of the Obvious. State what you think you know first and then question attack it and see if it still holds up.
The first step state the Obvious even though by doing so you piss off little brothers:)
I understand your point. I disagree about the validity of it as long as you hold to counting contractors as fully equivalent.
I vote for leaving.
You’re missing the point — at the time, we wanted the Soviets to be bogged down in Afghanistan, from the very beginning. That’s why we paid Osama bin Laden and the rest of the mujahdeen. The Soviets staying in Afghanistan was a win for us because they could not hold it — they tried, and it broke them. (And again, all they got for their “win” — a win which they had to keep with an economically-deadly troop and materiel commitment — was the mayorship of Kabul, which is the exact same situation we have today.)
The terrible irony, of course, is now the very same strategy we used to break the Soviets has been used for the last eight years to break us (and by the same people who we used to implement that strategy) — and the great expert on Soviet Russia, Condi Rice, never figured that out.
Well, all during the campaign Obama said this was the “right war.”
Of course, the good news is he said a lot of other shit in that campaign that’s turned out to be…, well bullshit.
Maybe there’s hope then?
Exactly. Their “win” destroyed them, and one of the guys we used to do it is now using the same strategy to try and destroy us.
Heh. My one-liner for the Mustache of Wisdom is that, at best, he had a moderate command of the obvious. My problem is that I spent so many years explaining stuff I thought was obvious (with tables and charts worth of evidence) that I’ve grown tired of the effort.
I think the two that are referred to as “victories” are
a) the Malayan insurgency -in which the British ended a threat to the mainly Malay-ruled successor state. This largely failed because the insurgents could never win over the Muslim Malays who saw the Brits turning over the state to their political leaders. The insurgents were mainly Communist and of Chinese-descent, originally armed by the Brits to fight the Japanese.
b) the Oman rebellion – which was won but training the Omani military and offering goodies to pacified villages. By offering development projects (wells, electricity generators, irrigation) to these villages and then defending them the population eventually swung over to a “new” leader (the Brother of the previous greedy prince who the SAS recognized would never have widespread public support even in the cities) who offered these goodies through the Brits.
So please tell me what was the Soviet employment at the peak, excluding truck drivers, cooks, and any other personnel you consider noncombattant. Until you provide me with that datum, I maintain my position.
The Soviets thought they won, with good reason. The fact that the U.S.-Saudi-Pak contribution LATER led to their being bogged down is secondary to the fact that they won until greater powers entered the fray.
The Soviets know they lost…and this with the massive advantage of having a very long common border with the Afghan state. They had scores of ways of resupplying their forces, both by air and overland.
Y’know…I’d be intrigued at how many of these commentators and pundits in the media once used the catch-phrase “The Soviet’s Vietnam” to describe Afghanistan….yet refuse to use the same analogy to the US…in which the resupply and distance from our nation is far more similar.
True he can state a case but his bias always skews the results toward lets give it 6 more months! Or toward supporting globalization has the Mustache of Wisdom written about the economy lately since his wife lost millions in the Bush Recession?
End result the Mustache of Wisdom does state the facts but his conclusions always seem to go wrong because of his bias toward his imaginary world view sometimes it might take years but yes he is usually wrong:)
Yep. Malay insurgency was Chinese ethnics who got no support from the locals.
U.S. put down Phillipine insurgency (around 1900) with tactics that would make neocons blush. Piped water into stomach, them jumped on it. Talk about U.S. torture!
Very nicely turned, OFG.
Evening, all.
We cannot leave Afghanistan until every last available penny has been squandered upon it. The true purpose of American warfare, is not winning hearts and minds, nation-building, or any of the advertised nonsense …
The essential purpose of war, for our empire, is to shift ever more wealth and influence toward a smaller and smaller “pinnacle” (that being the “balance” to the “base”).
DW
Fork it… just nuke them all and build those pipelines over a new glassy surface. Call it Glassistan.
Another coin victory was the Brits against the Boers. As near as I can remember the details, they did it by total war, i.e., considered civilians enemy combatants, herded into corrals, where the families of the fighting men were starved and otherwise abused.
Soviet success in Afghanistan had some aspects of total war, i.e., there were some areas of the country where every man, woman & child was eradicated. But there were other areas where “hearts and minds” coin strategy was employed.
Any hope of staying in Afghanistan means we need a friendly border supply route not the one we have in Pakistan does Ossama have people on that route. Until Pakistan can stop terror attacks in their country our supply route through it is in danger.
All Osama has to do is wait until real bad winter weather stops food, fuel etc from being air lifted in then he needs to shut down some mountain passes in winter a big rock slide and some explosives would do it.
After all we can’t defend the supply route because we can’t send in troops and Pakistan can’t stop Ossama from attacking them in their own cities.
I have asked a number of experts when a COIN has been successful and the only two answers are Malaysia and the Phillipines but then they go on to discuss how both involved very unusual situations (for example, in Malaysia, the “insurgents” were a disliked minority without a real base in the country from what I understand)
The COIN folks – to my mind – just like spouting their line to make war sound like a good thing. Yet the COIN crew under Petraeus have never done what they claim to advocate … instead their actions in Iraq were extremely brutal as well as unsuccessful and I believe we’ll see the same in Afghanistan.
Ah!
Eureka …
The silicon-based society.
That is, truly, “looking forward” …
Carbon IS becoming increasingly passe.
Again, read the Tom Dispatch piece linked above – we sent aid *before* the Soviet’s entered Afghanistan so we could draw them in and bog them down …
Post!
Very good point!
And don’t forget all the bipartisan support Obama could garner.
Since we are carbon-based that means that people will become passe – or we already are.
Aye, and the corporations would $upportive, as well, one imagines.
A win-win “situation”, most satisfactory for our Obamable times.
DW
See my 85, also 88. When I went to study up on the subject of coin, the literature was pretty easy to find, easy to read (3 or 4 books of about 200 pages each). Lessons are pretty clear, yet it took the U.S. military 4 years to write a manual, and they still can’t seem to learn the right lessons.
A former U.S. army major with whom I used to email exchange, pointed out that, after VN, the U.S. military determined that they would never fight another insurgency, so, despite all the war college studies about what went wrong in VN, the U.S. military never developed a plan for what to do if they were ever involved in another insurgency. Sample of one, FWIW.
But that did not prevent the initial victory of the Soviets. It wasn’t until the Stingers made Soviet air power no longer dispositive, that the die was cast.
Only we flesh and blood persons, dear Twain, our creation, the corporate person, may well flourish quite happily in such an environment, it will be less taxing for “them”, certainly.
Incidentally, Bruce Bartlet suggested that corporations should pay no taxes, while on book salon yesterday, saying that only people should be burdened with taxes.
I’m merely trying to think ahead to such a wonderful time …
Must be addling me wits … or somewthing.
:~DW
Barlett is merely another R asshole.
The Boer War methods were those developed by the US “Indian Fighters”…separate the women and children into controlled zones. Use them as hostages or bait to pacify the warriors and institute a regime of treaties that basically took all productive land and opportunity for independent action. Of course, the Boers got their vengeance through political means some thirty years later.
Bias for bigger weapons and board of director’s jobs for Generals when they retire in weapon making companies vs contracts for guns and bullet proof vests, a bias toward bigger profit margin weapons for the army vs preparing for reality?
Just spent the better part of an hur reading this thread, now it appears to be over.
But, in case you’re still here, I guess I’m missing the obvious. Please state exactly what is was the Soviets ‘won’ even before the US-Saudi-Pak involvement?
They certainly didn’t win hearts and minds; the Soviets certainly didn’t control all the territory of Afghanistan. They didn’t defeat the tribla leaders and mujahadeen, who were safely ensconced in their mountin hideaways, where Soviet airpower couldn’t reach tnem.
So what did the Soviets win, control of the skies? Not trying to be snarky, just an explanation, or your definition of what was ‘son’ would suffice.
Perhaps, but the mujahideen had yet to develop other tactics. Like car-bombs, suicide belts, mobile mortar rounds, etc. It was difficult for the Soviets to completely eradicate them in the mountains and they could always take refuge in Pakistan. The Stingers certainly shifted the pendulum, but so did the hardened caves that bin Laden was famous for constructing. The Soviets could not eradicate these fighters without actually placing boots on the ground in very remote places. They took heavy casualties with more mundane armaments (RPG’s, land mines).
The Soviets controlled the cities, and intermittently the roads. And I suspect the Saudi’s and the Pakistani’s would have opened the spigots to arming them with missiles and heavy weapons (which they did, acting as America’s and the UK’s intermediaries).
Won’t argue that, eCAHN.
I enjoy your pokes at pomposity, most thoroughly.
And your consist application there to.
;~DW
What would make sense is how to get out of Afghanistan with bin Laden having as little to cheer about as possible,
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/10214
RichardKanePA
to rahm or not to rahm/
i really appreciate the information, siun, but i bet the US will make the worst possible decision in the on-going travesty called “da War in Afghanistan.”/
it’s how we do things here./
our continued presence in Afghanistan is sufficient proof of the insanity of the US government. Edward Said depicted US knowledge of the world as beyond deplorable in his 1978 book Orientalism. now with 30 more years of unadulterated stupidity to add to that record of idiocy and incoherence, i think that the US should be awarded a prize for its willful ignorance and blatant disregard of legality and humanity./
unless the US starts waking up REAL SOON NOW, the empire is fated to fall./
what a despicable (pretense of a) nation./
imagine the US being ripped apart economically by a war that it cannot afford because it so deeply desired to train and arm a nation that utterly detested it./
sounds about the right caliber of US stupidity./
We were the ones who rammed Karzai down the Afghan throats in ’01-02. Another Bush Jr. fuckup.