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	<title>Comments on: With Secret Deal in Peril, Insurance Industry Goes to War</title>
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	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/10/12/with-secret-deal-in-peril-insurance-industry-goes-to-war/</link>
	<description>Firedoglake weblog</description>
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		<title>By: Hmmm</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/10/12/with-secret-deal-in-peril-insurance-industry-goes-to-war/#comment-1995046</link>
		<dc:creator>Hmmm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 01:57:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/?p=44663#comment-1995046</guid>
		<description>Outlaw for-profit health insurance and be done with all this base foolishness.  Profiting on denial of needed healthcare is immoral.  Put all Americans in the same insurance pool, and take out the profit, and it costs every person less.  How much sense does this have to make?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Outlaw for-profit health insurance and be done with all this base foolishness.  Profiting on denial of needed healthcare is immoral.  Put all Americans in the same insurance pool, and take out the profit, and it costs every person less.  How much sense does this have to make?</p>
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		<title>By: letsgetitdone</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/10/12/with-secret-deal-in-peril-insurance-industry-goes-to-war/#comment-1995043</link>
		<dc:creator>letsgetitdone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 01:46:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/?p=44663#comment-1995043</guid>
		<description>I have the cure. Single-payer as fast as we can get it. But in the interim freeze health insurance prices. That will remove the problem temporarily, until everyone can be enrolled in Medicare for All. It&#039;s time to reset this debate and have the fight and the debate we need to have over single-payer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have the cure. Single-payer as fast as we can get it. But in the interim freeze health insurance prices. That will remove the problem temporarily, until everyone can be enrolled in Medicare for All. It&#8217;s time to reset this debate and have the fight and the debate we need to have over single-payer.</p>
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		<title>By: letsgetitdone</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/10/12/with-secret-deal-in-peril-insurance-industry-goes-to-war/#comment-1995042</link>
		<dc:creator>letsgetitdone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 01:43:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/?p=44663#comment-1995042</guid>
		<description>My thoughts exactly. In fact, this is one of the main attractions of Medicare for All -- getting rid of a criminal industry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My thoughts exactly. In fact, this is one of the main attractions of Medicare for All &#8212; getting rid of a criminal industry.</p>
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		<title>By: letsgetitdone</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/10/12/with-secret-deal-in-peril-insurance-industry-goes-to-war/#comment-1995041</link>
		<dc:creator>letsgetitdone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 01:38:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/?p=44663#comment-1995041</guid>
		<description>i.e. which means that more of the public is for single-payer than for the PO, if we can assume that their first preference is for single-payer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i.e. which means that more of the public is for single-payer than for the PO, if we can assume that their first preference is for single-payer.</p>
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		<title>By: bmull</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/10/12/with-secret-deal-in-peril-insurance-industry-goes-to-war/#comment-1995037</link>
		<dc:creator>bmull</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 01:27:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/?p=44663#comment-1995037</guid>
		<description>The AHIP report highlights what the industry chooses to highlight, but it is not &quot;bogus&quot;. 

- PWC are &quot;the Oscar people&quot; but they also audit a quarter of U.S. public companies. If they are untrustworthy, the country is in big trouble.

- Premiums will go up faster under Obamacare. This is exactly what happened in Massachusetts, and anyone who disagrees has the burden of providing refuting data.

- AHIP&#039;s report leaves out subisidies because they are irrelevant to the point that AHIP is trying to make, which is that premiums will go up. Subsidies are indexed to wages and will quickly become trivial if premiums rise.

- Even if employers and insurers restructure their benefits to avoid the excise tax it does not mean consumers won&#039;t see higher premiums. If Joe Cadillac stops subsidizing everyone, then everyone has to pay a bit more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The AHIP report highlights what the industry chooses to highlight, but it is not &#8220;bogus&#8221;. </p>
<p>- PWC are &#8220;the Oscar people&#8221; but they also audit a quarter of U.S. public companies. If they are untrustworthy, the country is in big trouble.</p>
<p>- Premiums will go up faster under Obamacare. This is exactly what happened in Massachusetts, and anyone who disagrees has the burden of providing refuting data.</p>
<p>- AHIP&#8217;s report leaves out subisidies because they are irrelevant to the point that AHIP is trying to make, which is that premiums will go up. Subsidies are indexed to wages and will quickly become trivial if premiums rise.</p>
<p>- Even if employers and insurers restructure their benefits to avoid the excise tax it does not mean consumers won&#8217;t see higher premiums. If Joe Cadillac stops subsidizing everyone, then everyone has to pay a bit more.</p>
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		<title>By: gtomkins</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/10/12/with-secret-deal-in-peril-insurance-industry-goes-to-war/#comment-1995014</link>
		<dc:creator>gtomkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 00:11:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/?p=44663#comment-1995014</guid>
		<description>Make war right back at them

Single payer, besides being the clearly best policy choice, would carry this political advantage, that it would be a death sentence on the health care insurance industry.  There wouldn&#039;t be anyone to fund these faked up studies, or to contribute to campaigns, or to threaten to contribute to someone else&#039;s campaign, because the industry would be defunct, and dead men write no checks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Make war right back at them</p>
<p>Single payer, besides being the clearly best policy choice, would carry this political advantage, that it would be a death sentence on the health care insurance industry.  There wouldn&#8217;t be anyone to fund these faked up studies, or to contribute to campaigns, or to threaten to contribute to someone else&#8217;s campaign, because the industry would be defunct, and dead men write no checks.</p>
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		<title>By: earlofhuntingdon</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/10/12/with-secret-deal-in-peril-insurance-industry-goes-to-war/#comment-1994979</link>
		<dc:creator>earlofhuntingdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 21:11:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/?p=44663#comment-1994979</guid>
		<description>The tax on full benefits - not &quot;high&quot; or &quot;luxurious&quot; insurance plans - is meant to decrease the value of the currency.  It&#039;s meant to redefine what it means to be insured.  Rental car companies succeeded with this gambit when they redefined the size of a &quot;full-size&quot; car.  Ice cream manufacturers did it when they uniformly down-sized &quot;a gallon&quot; to something less, while keeping their prices the same.  Gillette does it when increases the size of its deodorant dispensers, fills them with the same 2.25 oz., then puts decals on them that say, &quot;New, larger size.&quot;  

If this name game succeeds in redefining low benefits plans as the new norm, above which you incur a penalty, it would put an artificial cap on government subsidies and allow insuresters profits to grow, because you&#039;ll have to pay extra for full benefits, assuming you can obtain them at any price. 

Taxing full benefits plans is also a direct attack on the unions who negotiated them, whose members have seen their protections and other deferred compensation gains tossed out in bankruptcy court, even though they&#039;ve already put in the labor given in exchange for them.  You&#039;d think abject submission to Rahm&#039;s agenda was more important than meeting his constituents&#039; needs.

There are less manipulative ways to control costs that don&#039;t attempt to sell paper dresses as if they were cotton.  (And that&#039;s before we get to any of the fine print.)  

They start with attacking insurance companies processes and profits, because they impose social costs that are unacceptable and more than our collective pocketbooks can bear.  But that picks up only about the first 20%.  Then we have to fix the system built around avoiding the limits the insurance companies artificially imposed, which rewards procedures rather than outcomes.  And then there are the market abuses of drugs and medical device manufacturers.  

Poor Rahm.  He must find it so exasperating that Democrats might prefer to protect their health and jobs, their education and constitutional expressions of speech and assembly, more than they want to protect his coffers, which he&#039;s stuffing with cold, hard lobbyists&#039; cash.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The tax on full benefits &#8211; not &#8220;high&#8221; or &#8220;luxurious&#8221; insurance plans &#8211; is meant to decrease the value of the currency.  It&#8217;s meant to redefine what it means to be insured.  Rental car companies succeeded with this gambit when they redefined the size of a &#8220;full-size&#8221; car.  Ice cream manufacturers did it when they uniformly down-sized &#8220;a gallon&#8221; to something less, while keeping their prices the same.  Gillette does it when increases the size of its deodorant dispensers, fills them with the same 2.25 oz., then puts decals on them that say, &#8220;New, larger size.&#8221;  </p>
<p>If this name game succeeds in redefining low benefits plans as the new norm, above which you incur a penalty, it would put an artificial cap on government subsidies and allow insuresters profits to grow, because you&#8217;ll have to pay extra for full benefits, assuming you can obtain them at any price. </p>
<p>Taxing full benefits plans is also a direct attack on the unions who negotiated them, whose members have seen their protections and other deferred compensation gains tossed out in bankruptcy court, even though they&#8217;ve already put in the labor given in exchange for them.  You&#8217;d think abject submission to Rahm&#8217;s agenda was more important than meeting his constituents&#8217; needs.</p>
<p>There are less manipulative ways to control costs that don&#8217;t attempt to sell paper dresses as if they were cotton.  (And that&#8217;s before we get to any of the fine print.)  </p>
<p>They start with attacking insurance companies processes and profits, because they impose social costs that are unacceptable and more than our collective pocketbooks can bear.  But that picks up only about the first 20%.  Then we have to fix the system built around avoiding the limits the insurance companies artificially imposed, which rewards procedures rather than outcomes.  And then there are the market abuses of drugs and medical device manufacturers.  </p>
<p>Poor Rahm.  He must find it so exasperating that Democrats might prefer to protect their health and jobs, their education and constitutional expressions of speech and assembly, more than they want to protect his coffers, which he&#8217;s stuffing with cold, hard lobbyists&#8217; cash.</p>
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		<title>By: Teddy Partridge</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/10/12/with-secret-deal-in-peril-insurance-industry-goes-to-war/#comment-1994978</link>
		<dc:creator>Teddy Partridge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 20:51:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/?p=44663#comment-1994978</guid>
		<description>If the insurance industry didn&#039;t like the bill, why didn&#039;t they say so when their minions were writing it?  It makes no sense to save these objections for the eve of the Committee vote.  They were &quot;in the room&quot; the entire time, right?  Or their revolving-door functionaries were.

Why object now?

Unless, of course, they aren&#039;t really objecting, but simply providing political cover for Baucus and the White House.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the insurance industry didn&#8217;t like the bill, why didn&#8217;t they say so when their minions were writing it?  It makes no sense to save these objections for the eve of the Committee vote.  They were &#8220;in the room&#8221; the entire time, right?  Or their revolving-door functionaries were.</p>
<p>Why object now?</p>
<p>Unless, of course, they aren&#8217;t really objecting, but simply providing political cover for Baucus and the White House.</p>
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		<title>By: eCAHNomics</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/10/12/with-secret-deal-in-peril-insurance-industry-goes-to-war/#comment-1994977</link>
		<dc:creator>eCAHNomics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 20:33:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/?p=44663#comment-1994977</guid>
		<description>Heh. THAT&#039;s why they postponed the Baucus vote! The AHIP study wasn&#039;t quite ready for publication.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh. THAT&#8217;s why they postponed the Baucus vote! The AHIP study wasn&#8217;t quite ready for publication.</p>
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		<title>By: eCAHNomics</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/10/12/with-secret-deal-in-peril-insurance-industry-goes-to-war/#comment-1994976</link>
		<dc:creator>eCAHNomics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 20:29:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/?p=44663#comment-1994976</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s what I meant when I said that pols might have encouraged the industry to write such a report: makes the pols look like they aren&#039;t industry tools. And yes, the timing, which is obvious now that you mention it, but I hadn&#039;t thought about it, is completely deliberate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s what I meant when I said that pols might have encouraged the industry to write such a report: makes the pols look like they aren&#8217;t industry tools. And yes, the timing, which is obvious now that you mention it, but I hadn&#8217;t thought about it, is completely deliberate.</p>
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