I saw MM and “Capitalism: A Love Story” free in Flint, Mi last Sunday and the crowd was the most expressive of any movie I have ever been to. We laughed loudly, we clapped and some of us cried when we found out teens were forced to stay longer than required in detention centers just to get more profits. I will be seeing it again to absorb it all. It’s his finest work so far. I have been watching his interviews and he has done dozens and dozens of them. Here’s an hour long interview he did. Watch chapter 20 (about 1 minute long) titled “Sending a copy to Obama”.
And thank you Michael Moore, you speak for me and millions of others. Please stay safe!!!
http://fora.tv/2009/09/17/Film…..Love_Story

Congratulations, Michael–and thank you! You’re the guy!!!

Here’s MM website. http://www.michaelmoore.com/

And find “Capitalism: A Love Story” in a theater near you and go see the movie. Take a friend, meet friends there, spread the word.
http://www.capitalismalovestor…..index.html

i really question this film’s information regarding the peasant life insurance. i love m.m. films but something is not right. the very first rule about underwriting is you never make the insured worth more to the beneficiary dead than alive. secondly, only and only the insured can vouch for his medical history. the medical info is on every application form. so either the employee/insured knew about the insurance, thus signing the form or the insured’s signature was forged. the only life insurance that a company can have on employees is key man/partnership. the amount of insurance would have to correlate with the worth of the person to the company, like he was paid alot, owned alot, had invaluable knowledge of the company/not replaceable without causing the company a large financial loss. i would like to know what insurance company underwrote the policies. they violated the law and should be sued. the families of the deceased employee should be able to recover the life insurance proceeds.

forgot, i was an insurance underwriter for 30 years and i know the business!!!

Thank you Jane! Thank you Michael Moore! Thank you Mainstream Media!/S

the very first rule about underwriting is you never make the insured worth more to the beneficiary dead than alive.

This would negate practically every life insurance policy ever written, as without the death of the insured there would be no collecting on any life insurance policy. Even my former catastrophic death insurance, minimal policy, was worth tens of thousands of dollars Upon My Death. The ‘very first rule of underwriting’ you claim would wipe out the industry.

This is the usual quality of critiquing wrt Michae1 Moore’s documentaries.

Lefty Hollywood Yeah Right! how many cheap movies have been made with guns, car crashes and a plot a porn film would be ashamed of?
Violence, Senseless Destruction its all part of the GOP agenda there must be an enemy we must Smash the enemy.

i really question this film’s information regarding the peasant life insurance.

I just saw Capitalism at a 4:00 matinee this afternoon (Saturday) in a very Republican neighborhood. The theater was half full and the crowd clapped at several points.

Thirty years ago, I heard of something called “key-man insurance” but was of the opinion that it required consent of the insured, for the obvious reasons. Here is what the Wikipedia has to say on the matter:

Corporate-owned life insurance (COLI) is life insurance on employees’ lives that is owned by the employer corporation, with benefits payable to the corporation. COLI was originally purchased on the lives of key employees and executives by a company to hedge against the financial cost of losing key employees to unexpected death, the risk of recruiting and training replacements of necessary or highly-trained personnel, or to fund corporate obligations to redeem stock upon the death of an owner. This use is commonly known as “key man” or “key person” insurance. Although this article refers only to practice and policy in America, key person insurance is used worldwide. Once, COLI was used for masses of non-key employees in order to get tax benefits, a practice known as “janitor insurance” or “dead peasant insurance”.

Congress and the IRS set some guidelines and limits on this practice. Today, COLI is most common for senior executives of a firm, but its use for general employees is still practiced. Recouping the cost of losing an employee versus actually profiting from their death at a level higher than their earning potential in particular raises questions. Estimating the value of an employee to a company is difficult. Recent questions have been raised in Michael Moore’s new film, “Capitalism: A Love Story.”

[…]

Another IRC amendment limited to $50,000 the amount that could be borrowed (and yet yield deductible interest payments) with respect to any one insured. Although the 4 out of 7 test was exploited in the 1980s by businesses seeking to in effect pay for insurance on employees/shareholders, e.g., on a deductible basis, the introduction of the $50,000 cap/insured in 1986 in turn led to the creation of broad-based leveraged COLI transactions, i.e., those in which the employer would purchase life insurance on hundreds or thousands of (usually low-level) employees, that would produce tax savings on interest deductions in excess of the actual cost to the employer of engaging in the transaction. These transactions were deemed by the IRS to be “tax shelters.”

[…]

I read recently that the financial services industry is now wheeling and dealing in “life settlement” derivatives, where they buy insurance policies from old people and bundle them. This obviously creates an industry which has a financial stake in immanentizing the deaths of a whole generation of Americans and would not be loath to lobby Congress to pass laws favorable to their financial interests.

Moore twittered just a while ago:

MMFlint Another smashing day for “Capitalism: A Love Story”! Saturday’s attendance numbers just in — up 40% over Friday! Ahead of “Sicko.” Nice!

bash religion in a religious country?

Well we do worship Money over God but doesn’t that make our religion Pagan? At least as far as the early church fathers are concerned? after all

“Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
19“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 20You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’b”
21“All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.
22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

JC was a Socialist! Lets see any Trolls dispute that and whats wrong wroth Socialism anyway?
America is a Christian Nation Nation founded by Christians if the GOPers don’t want to give their goods to the Poor if they don’t want eternal life…then they serve THE Prince of Lies to the Lake of Fire with them.
Newts scared of a Class War I’ll raise the stakes and give him Class war and Religious Crusade!/s

Great Catch we need to get rid of these tax shelters.

Ahead of Sicko I think our unacknowledged by pollsters Majority has grown.

bash religion in a religious country or trash capitalism in a capitalist country you have to live in the real world…

A slave cannot serve two masters. A house divided cannot stand:)

The GOP is sacrificing Moderates to keep the base 20%er Lizard Brains in their camp and angry enough to vote in a snowstorm. Fine then lets poach us some Lizards we need Fundy Left Wing Preachers Preaching the Lake of Fire to Rich People!

OT: Another delight of my week was meeting Max Blumenthal and hearing his speak. Wow, what a job he does on the right-wing “Christianists.” (I use that term to distinguish them from true followers of Christ, who seems to have been a pretty decent fellow.)

We need Preachers who Preach like JC did not JC say

“Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ [that Jesus is the Messiah]; and shall deceive many.”
http://www.thercg.org/books/ews-n.html

Now then what happens to false Profits in a Christen Country?

Elijah answered, “By the living LORD Almighty, whom I serve, I promise that I will present myself to the king today.”

So Obadiah went to King Ahab and told him, and Ahab set off to meet Elijah. When Ahab saw him, he said, “So there you are–the worst troublemaker in Israel!”

“I am not the troublemaker,” Elijah answered. “You are–you and your father. You are disobeying the LORD’s commands and worshiping the idols of Baal. Now order all the people of Israel to meet me at Mount Carmel. Bring along the 450 prophets of Baal and the 400 prophets of the goddess Asherah who are supported by Queen Jezebel.”

So Ahab summoned all the Israelites and the prophets of Baal to meet at Mount Carmel. Elijah went up to the people and said, “How much longer will it take you to make up your minds? If the LORD is God, worship him; but if Baal is God, worship him!” But the people didn’t say a word.

Then Elijah said, “I am the only prophet of the LORD still left, but there are 450 prophets of Baal. Bring two bulls; let the prophets of Baal take one, kill it, cut it in pieces, and put it on the wood–but don’t light the fire. I will do the same with the other bull. Then let the prophets of Baal pray to their god, and I will pray to the LORD, and the god who answers by sending fire–he is God.”

The people shouted their approval.

Then Elijah said to the prophets of Baal. “Since there are so many of you, you take a bull and prepare it first. Pray to your god, but don’t set fire to the wood.”

They took the bull that was brought to them, prepared it, and prayed to Baal until noon. They shouted. “Answer us. Baal!” and kept dancing around the altar they had built. But no answer came.

At noon Elijah started making fun of them; “Pray louder! Hi is a god! Maybe he is day-dreaming or relieving himself, or perhaps he’s gone off on a trip! Or maybe he’s sleeping, and you’ve got to wake him up!” So the prophets prayed louder and cut themselves with knives and daggers, according to their ritual, until blood flowed. They kept on ranting and raving until the middle of the afternoon; but no answer came, not sound was heard.

Then Elijah said to the people, “Come closer to me.” and they all gathered around him. He set about repairing the altar of the LORD which had been torn down. He took twelve stones, one for each of the twelve tribes named for the sons of Jacob, the man to whom the LORD had given the name Israel With these stones he rebuilt the altar for the worship of the LORD. He dug a trench around it, large enough to hold about four gallons of water. Then he placed the wood on the altar, cut the bull in pieces, and laid it on the wood. He said, “Fill four jars with water and pour it on the offering and the wood.” They did so, and the said, “Do it again”–and they did. “Do it once more,” he said–and they did. The water ran down around the altar and filled the trench.

At the hour of the afternoon sacrifice the prophet Elijah approached the altar and prayed, “O LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove now that you are the God of Israel. and that I am your servant and have done all this at your command. Answer me, LORD, answer me, so that this people will know that you, the LORD, are God and that you are bringing them back to yourself.”

The LORD sent fire down, and it burned up the sacrifice, the wood, and the stones, scorched the earth and dried up the water in the trench.

When the people saw this, they threw themselves on the ground and exclaimed. “The LORD is God; the LORD alone is God!”

Elijah ordered, “Seize the prophets of Baal; don’t let any of them get away!” The people seized them all, and Elijah led them down to Kishon Brook and killed them.

http://www.amazingchange.org/s….._profb.htm

Pat Robertson better watch it!

Here’s an interesting Dkos diary on the shock expressed by ABC’s Claire Shipman at the notion of dead-peasant insurance: http://www.dailykos.com/story/…..-Insurance

Link What did he say I can always use more material Steal from the best if you can is my motto the WORD the Best words needs to be repeated to catapult the Propaganda.
Say what you want about Bush but he does know his propaganda repeating the message preferably without boring people is key.
I always believe in Giving the Devil his Due to win first you must know your Enemy.
Propaganda is Lies, the Devil is the Prince of Lies.
Evil is turing away from Good/God, Since God is all Knowing turning away from Science on Climate Change for example well we all assume the End of the World involves Nukes but what if the Destruction caused is from Global warming?
And wars started by Global Warming as crops die and people without food try and get food.

Back to the topic of Jane’s thread, here’s the first paragraph of Michael Moore’s currently recommend Dkos diary:

Thank you, all of you, who packed the theaters across North America last night to see my new film. The movie houses were rockin’! The national movie exit poll company announced this morning that the audiences in America gave “Capitalism: A Love Story” a rare “A” rating! Wow, thank you! In most multiplexes where “Capitalism” played, it was the #1 or #2 top-grossing movie there for the evening. That is nothing short of amazing.

Michael goes on to say:

For those of you waiting till next week to see it, I can’t say this strongly enough: Do not put off going to see “Capitalism: A Love Story.” It is not just a movie. It is a referendum that is being closely watched by the CEOs of America.

Now that alone makes me want to see it again.

Any chance we get Mike here to talk? If we do I want him to have extra time!

What if every Generation has an AntiChrist who can end the world and Bush was ours?

Say what you want about Bush but he does know his propaganda repeating the message preferably without boring people is key.

If “leadership” were simply a matter of getting one’s stated agenda adopted, I’d have to give Bush a very high rating.

When Atheists feel they must Preach on Sunday then the Church is sooo not doing their job!

True but everything he got passed was a bad idea:)

Any chance we get Mike here to talk? If we do I want him to have extra time!

Great idea!

But yes we must give the Devil his due otherwise we underestimate him and lose.

True but everything he got passed was a bad idea:)

Yup. That was the “if” part of my claim.

You know that everyone will be there for that including folks we have not seen in a while:)

I’d like to see Obama become similarly effective, though I must say that I’m having my doubts about an agenda gap: his real agenda seems to be deviating from his stated agenda.

Hmmm? the Devil is very successful at getting everyone to try his ideas, drugs, sins but long term his ideas suck!

Yeah he tries to reach out and the GOP never reaches back aside from this Never working its embarrassing but this is Rahm’s way of reaching out to GOPers so what can you expect.

Who Preaches to heal the Sick with National Healthcare We Do!
Can I get an Amen!
Who Preaches against the Death Penalty? Gov Perry of Texas We Do!
Can I get an Amen!
Who Preaches to end wars against people with no ties to Ossama or WMD despite Judy Miller’s lies We Do!
Can I get an Amen!
:)
Atheist Lefties must Preach for the Good, the Way is not being taught.

If you stand against National Healthcare then in the after life You will be without healthcare.

If you stand with the Death Penalty then you will be falsely accused by Gov Perry/ Pontius Pilate and sent to be crucified on an electric cross

If you lie to start wars in the after life you will die again and again the same way all the innocent people who were killed by your lies died! Yeah I’m looking at you Judy, Bush, Darth Scooter, Yoo etc

To the Lake of Fire with you all Sinners you disgust me!

I’m not sure Fundy Left Wing Preachers Preaching the Lake of Fire exist. It is not the style of left wingers to either be fundi or preach about lakes of fire.

Could we just talk about using depleted uranium as a United States military tactic and why that is really, really bad instead?

We left wingers are sort of reality based and would prefer to focus on the very many and serious real world problems rather than the imaginary sort right wingers get so worked up about. We think there are enough real things to get all upset about, we don’t have to go and make them up.

I saw the movie last night. It was excellent. I read several reviews prior and none mentioned the cornerstone of the movie would be FDR’s second bill of rights. Outstanding.

I also really liked the framing of capitalism as a moral issue. Very well done film

Replace capitalism with democracy. I’m ready!

Now that’s what I’d call a death panel.

I’m not sure Fundy Left Wing Preachers Preaching the Lake of Fire exist. It is not the style of left wingers to either be fundi or preach about lakes of fire.

I’m not a Lefty:) Maybe not a Preacher either but we I think we can mock the Right by stealing their Style!
Also the anti slavery movement began in churches it does take some powerful preaching to start a war.

FDR’s second bill of rights?

Could we just talk about using depleted uranium as a United States military tactic and why that is really, really bad instead?

We can talk fact and do But I think we need to talk in ways the Lizard Brains understand to get their votes.

I saw the movie last night too. It was terrible. I say that as one who loved “Roger and Me,” “Sicko,” and every Michael Moore movie in between. “Capitalism” was almost humorless, incoherent, inaccurate, and pointless. The problem with “Capitalism” was that it tried to take on the whole economic system instead of, as with the earlier movies, a limited target such as guns or health care. It does no good for Moore to attack the capitalist system as a whole. What should we replace it with? Near the end of the movie, he calls for socialism, but gives no clue as to what he means by that. What industries should the government nationalize? How much, if any, free enterprise should be permitted? “Capitalism” was not fun to watch.

We think there are enough real things to get all upset about, we don’t have to go and make them up.

Who said anything about making something up? I quote the Bible

I loved hearing the Bishop call capitalism evil.

That alone was worth the price of admission. No one has mentioned this in any of the reviews, but the film also gave me quite a bit more respect for the Catholic Church, and that says a lot coming this Deist.

Go see the movie. Today.

I was planning to any special reason?

If by reading the Bible even though I don’t believe I am closer to what JC really meant than the Fundies? Then the church is so corrupt that Snarkist who mock the church by preaching the TRUTH( Snarkist is that a word? no then I just made it one:)) are closer to the WORD than the fake profits who claim to spread the WORD!

There is a church that fight for the poor the Nuns killed in South America and there is the Rich Church of Pat Buchanan that brags about killing commies (they never mention killing Commie? Nuns though).

Maybe we can get this Bishop on the Lake does he have a good Lake of Fire Sermon?:)

It will answer your question about FDR’s 2nd Bill Of Rights

It does no good for Moore to attack the capitalist system as a whole. What should we replace it with?

I haven’t seen the movie but that’s a good point, we need to take it inning by inning, bring in programs that translate into a people driven society, you domonstrate by success one inning at a time if you want real change evolving

will decide for myself when I see the movie

The film shows the failures of capitalism, less so than what should replace it.

He fails to make the distinction that a democracy is a decision making process which is bottom up.

Capitalism, socialism, communism are economic systems each with features.

Capitalism is a system which is about wealth creation for individuals who profit (exploit) from the work of others. It is built on a system which uses credit and banking as wealth engine that produce nothing of tangible use to society, but wealth for the bankers and wealth class who own the means of production/ property. Capitalism only works for the workers when capital is held in check on their exploitative practices by laws and taxes which return the wealth created to the society.

Communism is worker controlled and therefore there is no private ownership of the means of production. There is no profit for individuals as any excess is returned to the people.

Socialism is not a specific system but one which recognizes that there are needs of the people which are met by the state – such as education, health care, housing, jobs, clean environment. Socialist governments do not prohibit private property nor private wealth, but insure the basic human needs of all members of society. Accordingly they will appear to interfere with free enterprise which seeks only profit with little or no regard to social welfare of implications of poverty.

Any economic system can be mated to democracy for decision making or even dictatorship, though the dictator would have to be very much focused on what the people want and need to represent their interests.

Democracies are less efficient and slow, but ultimately more just and fair. But democracies can only work if the voters are informed and participate. We don’t have either. So we have a failed democracy.

We have allowed the decision making process in our society to be driven by money and wealth. Money talks, money is free speech. Bribery has been made legal. The needs of the self has been elevated above the needs of the many. We are a selfish greedy society because in capitalism we worship at the alter of wealth.

Socialists economies put the many above the self. People matter before profits. So that is the problem with America. Markets are free but people are slaves. Capital is free but works are free to work for exploitative wages or not work. Workers are free to go into debt getting on a treadmill for life to improve their lot – a mere illusion.

Capitalism failed the people but made the few wealthy wealthier. But it is a ponzi scheme and can only work when there are workers to exploit for profit – workers create wealth – not capital. It’s a zero sum game and it’s coming to an end.

Then what?

Kind of funny that the success of a documentary about the failure of capitalism is judged on how much money the movie made.

But that’s true of most things.

so and so new album sold …… copies

so and so new movie pushed movie xyz out of first place this weekend

so and so movie star’s house listed for sale at ….million

and so on

My wife and I saw “Capitalism” when it opened here on Friday. We loved it.

Here’s Roosevelt’s “Second Bill of Rights” speech.

What a different world we’d live in today if he had lived to get this passed into law by Congress.

President Roosevelt:

“We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people—whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth—is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.

This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain inalienable political rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.

As our nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.

We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

-The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

-The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

-The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

-The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

-The right of every family to a decent home;

-The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

-The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

-The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.”

wrong!!!! forget the ads you hear about wanting to leave something to your loved ones, like creating a little estate for them. life insurance is there to cover a financial loss, period! adult children cannot take out 1 mil on papa, who is old and penniless. maybe 25000 depending on what his net worth/income was and what his final expenses are. an employer cannot take out a policy on the janitor, payable to the employer, because there is no financial loss, a janitor is a dime a dozen. sorry janitors. a file clerk can be replaced with one call to employment agency. and so on and so on. now key man isurance is usually 5 to 10 times salary/compensation but there has to be a financial loss to the employer. transamerica got into big trouble many years ago when a grandmother took out insurance on each of her grandchildren, without the parents knowledge, and then proceeded to try and kill each grandchild. no child was hurt because a parent found out and granny’s plan ended. she was a mental case. now transamerica was sued for not requiring the parents signature because only the insured or guardian can atest to the medical history. i still want to know who was the insurance company that issued these policies. again there has to be financial loss to the beneficiary if the insured died. believe me the insurance companies never lose. i have seen everyone of m.m. films, bought them for friends/family, even sent f.911 to repubics friends. in this situation, the issuing insurance company needs a looking at.

“the very first rule about underwriting is you never make the insured worth more to the beneficiary dead than alive.”

Well, it most certainly is broken all the time. Also, this is a great caveat for getting involved in life insurance investment trusts. When a corporation profits more from having you dead than alive, you know your life expectancy is dropping rapidly.

“a janitor is a dime a dozen. sorry janitors. a file clerk can be replaced with one call to employment agency. and so on and so on.”

But it probably takes a thousand serial killers or more to replace a corporate insurance company CEO.

one thing you left out were the dates of these situations. some of the info regarding coli goes back to 1947, the ’50s, the ’80s. the irs has changed guidelines regarding coli as recently as 2006. in all my underwriting years, never did i issue a policy without showing a loss to the beneficiary, financial loss. the insured or guardian always had to sign. every underwriting department i worked in followed the same guidelines, these were the same guidelines back to the early eighties. even though i was considered middle management i was never approached by employer for life insurance payable to the company and i worked for the biggies. again what insurance company is still issuing these policies.??

huh?

Look, you really need to spend some time learning about the insurance industry and the larger financial industry to which it is a subordinate tool, along with the operations of Fortune 500 companies.

“Dead Peasant” insurance has little to do with the “peasant” upon which the policy is written or the underlying value of the “peasant.” It’s not for their benefit. It’s not even a bet as to whether the peasant lives or dies. If the “peasant” dies during the course of the policy’s term, it’s a bonus. (Yes, I used the word “peasant”, but you could put any other McGuffin or object in here if the company buying the policy had some risk related to that object. It’s not just “peasants” they’re buying policies on, and it’s not traditional insurance they are seeking.)

The insurance policy allows companies to put money away tax-free in the form of premiums. If they put it in nearly any other form of investment, they pay taxes on the profit realized when the investment either pays out dividends or a gain is made.

They are insuring “peasants” or the McGuffin du jour to take advantage of the one feature insurance provides all policyholders — the reduction of risk. The risk they are really seeking shelter from is tax.

The insurance policies can also serve as an underlying resource for a derivative transaction, just as mortgages can be used as the basis for a collateralized debt object, and in turn for credit default swaps.

Do you know why — besides the fact you’ve not seen these used — you can’t get words around this? It’s because it’s all fuzzy numbers and algorithms after a point. Just like those chaps in the movie can’t explain credit default swaps and derivatives, it’s hard to explain in words what a mathematical equation conveys. Math is a very different language.

Lots of executives have also allowed themselves to be persuaded that these exotic instruments for tax avoidance are a good thing — but they are being persuaded by the same people who can’t put into words for Moore what it is they do for a living. I can tell you these executives have been faking it all along. They don’t understand this stuff, either, except that at the most basic and fundamental level, they are avoiding paying taxes on pools of money.

What George Soros and Warren Buffett have said are absolutely right; Soros says he can’t understand the CDOs and CDSs, so he doesn’t buy them and Buffett advocates investing only in what one understands thoroughly and believes CDSs are weapons of mass destruction. Funny how the guys in the corner offices believe the math geeks who can’t explain anything instead of listening to a couple of the richest guys in the world.

life insurance trusts use life insurance to cover final expenses, any final tax problem the estate/heirs might have. but the insured chooses the trustee. so i do not know what your arguement is. with the new regulations that the irs has implemented in the late ’80s and ’90s, the abuses of coli should not exist. if they are still happening then i would like to know what insurance companies are still doing this and they should be sued. an underwriter should be questioning the beneficiary, the need for the insurance and what the laws are, both federal and state laws. if these coli practices are not happening now but back in the ’40s, ’50s, ’60s, ’70s ’80s, then i hope the film clarifies that these practices are not happening now and for sometime. what company is issuing these policies now???!!! poor job of underwriting.

spend more time learning about the insurance industry? 30 years was not enough? 30 years as a senior life insurance underwriter plus 10 years outside of the underwriting part of the insurance business is not enough? plus 2 years as a licensed california agent, life, disability, not health, that is not enough? now onced i approved the insurance based on the medical assessment, financial need, and laws of the state/federal were followed, it was out of my hands. if the companies did bundling/derivitives of these policies, i never ever heard about this. if the underwriting was correct, then the companies would not have profitted from the insurance, unless it was keyman. again what insurance company is issuing these policies??? very poor underwriting!!!!

I think the fundamental problem with Moore’s movie — and I loved it, cried and laughed my way through it yesterday — is that he doesn’t make a clear problem statement.

Which is:

The American public confuses capitalism, an economic distribution system, for their democratic political and governmental system, leading to a corruption of the latter for the benefit of the former.

Witness the level of participation by viewers of American Idol in voting for an idol, versus the level of participation by viewers in local/state/mid-term elections. They honestly think they are doing something constructive and compelling when they text their choice for idol and skip selecting the school board.

Capitalism, socialism, communism, they’re all economic distribution systems; socialism and communism have a fundamental entwinement with their political and governmental system as politics and government are essential to the economic distribution process.

The most frequent argument we hear from the right, particularly with regard to health insurance — keep government out of our lives — is the differentiation between capitalism and the other isms. It’s an economic system which reduces the role of politics and government in the process of making choices as to how we as a society will handle capital.

It’s the stuff they teach in business school and gloss over in other education; and in K-12 education, it’s not only glossed over, but capitalism gets more than its fair share of emphasis.

We’re asking one helluva lot to expect one guy with a camera to explain in a matter of a couple hours what we failed to learn in our K-12 public education (and for some of us, our university education), and which the business guys who rule our lives struggle to explain as well. I think he did a creditable job of trying crack open heads in a personal fashion.

You’ve been working at the bottom of the food chain. If you haven’t had experience working with the reinsurance industry and with the intersection at Fortune 500 companies’ captive reinsurance firms, then you don’t realize the work you are doing is being used to permit the other exotic stuff.

I worked for a Fortune 100 company’s captive. I watched as they began to introduce swaps to the business back in the late 1990s, was assistant to legal counsel and finance VP’s who handled this stuff. They couldn’t explain it then, took them weeks to integrate the first two or three really basic swaps into their business because it took that long for the third-party banksters to explain it to them. And we’re talking about executives who were no slouches educationally speaking; they had bachelors and masters degrees in science, finance and business and they were still struggling.

Try finding a copy of standard ISDA terms — you won’t find them readily without making some sort of commitment. There’s a reason they are trying to hide this stuff from us. If people on the frontlines really learned about this stuff, they’d have been in the streets with pitchforks and torches demanding it get shut down.

mamameow8, you miss the point(s). If bond ratings agencies understood their business completely and if those who bought CDOs understood their business completely, there would not be a credit crisis. The first point is that things became so complicated that literally nobody understood what was going on. The second point is that government, by subsidizing and guaranteeing things, assumed the risks and made thing profitable which would not be so in a true free market. It appears that similar things go on in insurance – and may become more prevalent as government insurance subsidies increase. If government grants tax breaks for companies to insure CEOs or peons, they can buy insurance which is “sound”, profitable and legal for insurance companies but not for the insured or for society – and which would not be sound for the insuring corporations in the absence of subsidy.

Just dawned on me the wingers claiming a lack of box office success are deliberately understating the success, but because they cherry-picked the numbers.

There was a FREE screening in my town on Friday night.

Did that count towards the numbers for the weekend? not if you’re counting dollars taken this weekend, versus number of people who saw it.

There was a matinee showing here with a discussion panel immediately following the program — but not one for the evening shows. Could this have affected numbers? yes, because there’d be more people attending the matinee at the lower price.

Yet again, bad measures of success based on money.

“…would not be loath to lobby Congress to pass laws favorable to their financial interests.”

Now who would do something like that!? Pshaw, none of our good, upright, moral Congresscritters would even consider involving themselves in something as sordid as defending death panels, would they? What? They already have? They’ve already come out in support of the death panels staffed by insurance company accountants? Well, shut mah mouf! Who’d a thunk it?

After reading all of these comments I feel like I should be given at least 1 CEU. This has been very informative. I wonder what the impact on revenues to the country’s coffers is as a result of these convoluted loopholes. Does anyone have a guess ?

I can tell you these executives have been faking it all along. They don’t understand this stuff, either, except that at the most basic and fundamental level, they are avoiding paying taxes on pools of money.

What George Soros and Warren Buffett have said are absolutely right; Soros says he can’t understand the CDOs and CDSs, so he doesn’t buy them and Buffett advocates investing only in what one understands thoroughly and believes CDSs are weapons of mass destruction. Funny how the guys in the corner offices believe the math geeks who can’t explain anything instead of listening to a couple of the richest guys in the world.

I figure when Rick Bookstaber raises red flags, anyone who doesn’t stop and pay attention is either on drugs, drunk, or a moron. Or all 3 at once.

f bond ratings agencies understood their business completely and if those who bought CDOs understood their business completely, there would not be a credit crisis.

I don’t know whether you have time or inclination to read Nomi Prins latest book, “It Take A Pillage”.

You can click on the top of the page link to Laura Flanders to view a recent interview with Prins, who I think makes an excellent case that there are some interests who deliberately introduce ‘complexification’ because it is enormously profitable for them.

I think that if you step back and look at the global finance system, including tax havens, money laundering, etc, etc, there are reasons to at least suspect that some parties want ‘complexificiation’ so that they can hide vast money laundering operations. (Madoff comes to mind.)

In recent weeks, European news has mentioned British investment banks being hit with fraud charges b/c they’ve been laundering Iranian (oil) currency.

Complexification is a way for posers to intimidate others, but it is also most certainly a way to hide illegitimate flows of money.

In that sense, the logic of capitalism, which has no morality outside of concentrating wealth, has shown itself to be more destructive than most military operations.

I’ve already made some general criticisms of “Capitalism” in #42, above. Here’s a specific criticism. Moore engages in demagoguery with respect to dead peasant insurance, which is life insurance that a corporation takes out on an employee. He shows a grieving family of a dead employee who complain that the employer profited from the employee’s death, with Moore implying that the family should have gotten the life insurance proceeds. But the employer, not the family, had paid the premiums. Moore then implies that dead peasant insurance is scandalous, since it would be illegal for him to buy fire insurance on his neighbor’s property, as that would give him an incentive to burn down his neighbor’s property. But this is not analogous, because an employer has an interest in its employee’s life, whereas Moore has no interest in his neighbor’s property. Dead peasant insurance is perfectly ordinary and legal; see
the Wikipedia entry on corporate-owned life insurance: http://search.creativecommons……lla-search

Henry, as someone who is boycotting Michael Moore’s movie because of Moore’s idiotic stance on why he could not vote for Hillary Clinton, I have to agree with Moore on this one.

The corporation gets a win win situation. Either they have an employee they make money off of, or the employee dies, and they make money. The possibility exists that a corporation might treat the employee differently if they stand to profit from their death than if they do not. It is also possible that the money they spend on the policy is simply “deducted” from what they pay the employee.

So they are paying for the policy with money that would have gone to the employee, which in turn might have allowed the family to pay for such a policy. The policy payout should be shared since the corporation lowered what they pay the employee so they can pay for the policy to begin with.

http://www.dailypuma.com