Rana, Welcome to the Lake.

Joanne, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.

Welcome to Firedoglake – thank you for joining us today.

Thanks Beverly. Rana, thanks for coming — looking forward to the UK launch. Can I start by noting you have in your book many cases of women killed in so-called ‘honour’ killings. Is this a crime which is exclusively committed against women in your opinion?

Hi everyone and thanks for hosting me today.

Hi Joanne,

I believe that these crimes are mostly committed against women though there are some reports of men being killed for the same reason….though it is not very common. I have reported five or six cases since I started reporting back in1993 and there are reported cases in countries such as Pakistan.

Hello, Rana, is it ever a consideration that the person who should die in a case of a woman being raped is the person who should have protected her and didn’t, which I assume would be her nearest male relative, or the head of the household?

Welcome to FDL this afternoon Rana and Joanne.

Rana, I have not had an opportunity to read your book so forgive me if this is covered, but how much does the fundamentalist religious types (regardless of whether it is Christian, Muslim, or Jewish)?

Yes, we have in some cases been asked to protect couples although our caseload is overwhelmingly female. But the difference we find is that men are rarely threatened by their own family, but by the family of a woman they have considered to have ‘dishonoured’, like Arash Gorbany-Zarin here in the UK. Ruth: I don’t recall any murder fitting the scenario you describe. Rana?

My response to honor killings is revulsion.

Should the official U.S. response be different?

Dear Ruth

I believe the rapist should be punished of course and it is unfortunate that sometimes it is one of teh closest people to the victim (if i understood your question correct). I also do not believe that anyone should be killed for anything and that law must toake its course in ant crime.

Dakine01, could you qualify your question? And please note that internationally ‘honour’ killings are currently recorded fairly often in Hindu and Sikh settings as well.

ART45, I think it’s fairly natural to be repulsed, and as Rana’s book shows, the vast majority of Jordanians are also repulsed by such crimes. However, the issue of Western intervention is a thorny one.

Dear Dakin

I think that religious clericks should have a stronger and clearer voice to object these cimes. As it looks now, it is only the moderate religious figueres who occasionally speake against these types of murders.

I don’t recall any murder fitting the scenario you describe.

Actually, I didn’t mean to support murder, tho when I read it over, I see that as a possible interpretation. I was actually wondering whether the consideratiion of the family determined to commit an ‘honor’ killing thought that the proper object was the person raped.

And Rana, I agree that killing is hardly the course to take toward justice, but that societies that have used it may have other considerations, adn wonder about them.

I guess my point (I think in line with your mention of it in the intro), is that honor killings seems to be especially prevalent in patriarchal societies and that seems to be a speciality of the fundamentalist religious types. We don’t see it much nowadays in the US but it isn’t that far in the background either.

Rana, relating to the questions by ART45 and dakine01, one of the most interesting parts of your book to me was the struggle by Jordanian women for legal reform, and how your organisation was criticised for accepting funding from a Western organisation, and how reform was opposed by some of the more conservative religious groups. It seems reformists need to strike a very delicate balance. What are the particular issues facing women’s rights activists within this field?

Dakine

I agree with you and these crimes are committed mainly among patriarchal society, however, there are families who could be controling of their female relatives in so many way, but would not kill regardless of their religious convictions.

I see your point on a societal level perhaps as a correlation, but it’s not accurate to think that those who commit ‘honour’ killings are necessarily fundamentalists, or to believe they are think they are required by religion to murder. Some commit murders while believing them to be against their religion, a few are even atheists.

Joanne,

I agree with you. It was really annoying to be accused of all sorts of accusations, which i as an activist was accused of throughout my career. It is accuations that most human rights activists in teh world complain of. But this does not mean that we should stop. The good thing is that there is no direct or dangerous threats that was posted against women activists working in this field.

Not to be flip but it might be the difference between families who see women as people versus families who see women as commodities.

My understanding is that in many societies where honor killings still are a factor, most decisions are made in meetings with highly regarded family/tribe leaders. Can I assume that working with leaders can be helpful, as going against the decision they reach would have consequences?

Do the mothers and sisters of these victims object?

Fathers and brothers also.

Thanks Rana. Can you tell us more about the Norma Khoury case, where you succesfully managed to have her book withdrawn from sale due to the inaccurate and exaggerated portrayal of Jordan and ‘honour’ killings. I feel that this is not the only case of the phenomenon of ‘honour’ killings being exploited for shock value by people with underlying motivations, sometimes political ones. Do you agree?

Ruth

I totally agree with you. We should extend our work and reachout to distinguished family leaders to explain more about these murders and what women suffer from iun general. But, at the same time we have to remember that women on many occasions get killed for other reasons and the family does not always meet to decide. Sometimes the killing happens following an argument, after a woman is released from prison or for financial reasons. But all in all, I think we need to focuse on certain figures within the families.

Loo

Mothers, sisters, aunts are in a difficult situation. sometimes they do take part in a murder by giving out information, plotting teh murder or taking part in luring the victinm to her death. Some ae brought up to beleive women who commit a ‘mistake’ should be killed so that they would be a lesson to others. Other female relatives ar helpless and cannot stand against the victim beuase ofthey do they might get killed as well.

Thank you. From what I have seen about justice in societies still involved in these practices, there seems to be more to gain in direct involvement with the families and their involvement in a family or tribe.

Sometimes the killing happens following an argument, after a woman is released from prison or for financial reasons.

Is there a future for working with family and tribal leaders to establish a standard in advance, that would make it clear there would be consequences, fines, withdrawal of privileges, if such horrors occur?

Rana, sorry to jump over you to respond here. Ruth, when a decision to make an ‘honour’ killing is made by a family committee or informal court, it may be possible to negotiate but that this often means that the negotiation also leads to a result which is not desirable. For example, a dispute might be settled by forcing an unwanted marriage on the ‘offender’ or other girls might be exchanged between families as restitution. (This is probably not the situation in all cases) More broadly, a family may agree to mediation but use it to abuse the girl. We strongly do not recommend mediation because of the risk factor where protection is possible.

Joanne

The work as against Norma Khouri was done by myself, an australian reporter and an activist in jordan. we did manange to pull her bok of the shelves after our investigations roved that her entire stopry was fake and we managed to stop teh release of a second book where she talks of ow she ran away from Jordan. I am sure that book would have been filled with more lies and inaccuracies. I also agree with you that some people unfortunately use certain causes for certain reasons that really works against the objectives of certan issues as was the case with Norma Khouri. The only way to respond is to expose them and report the truth!!

Thank you for being here Rana and Joanne. I think it is time for women internationally to step up to the plate and give voice against the overt and covert misogyny and sexism and patriarchical power and control addiction happening all over the globe.

When I heard about the rape victims in Africa having their husbands abandon them because of the dishonor they brought I was stunned by such insane injustice.

And punishing the victim once again only with DEATH … it is amazing what human beings, what toxic kool-aid of a social code, they will swallow.

We strongly do not recommend mediation because of the risk factor where protection is possible.

Maybe I am mistaken in seeing leaders of councils as being chosen for qualities of wisdom and peace-keeping. What you say here indicates that the councils are not much interested in establishing a society that fosters the interests of its members. Do I intuit then that brute force is generally higher in value than a group that adheres well and maintains a viable community?

On the other hand, there are also people who deny that so-called ‘honour’ killings exist at all as a category and that there is no real difference between an ‘honour’ killing and domestic violence; that ‘honour’ killing is just a term used to demonise minorities. It’s our position that ‘honour’ killing is a collective rather than an individual crime and that because of this there needs to be special protection procedures in place for potential victims. (I would have thought also that the existence of specific laws giving ‘honour’ killers lessened sentences in Jordan, Syria and Iraq would also show that there is a real difference.) What’s your position on this?

No problem Joanne..but I think these are all probabilties as I do not think that the regular people or the activists such as ourselves would usually know of such gatherings when it happens. Unfortunately, most of teh times we learn ofthe murders after they happen. There is a local NGO in jordanthat mediates between families of threatened women and their daughters and sometimes they suceede..but in general, mediation could be dangerous as u suggested.

collective rather than an individual crime and that because of this there needs to be special protection procedures in place for potential victims.

yes … like a glacially-paced gender genocide.

I guess it depends on the structure of the area in question. Informal courts, whether jirgas or panchayats tend to seek resolution rather than abstract justice, and as such they will inevitably end up treating the powerful differently. There is a desire to keep peace and reduce the likelihood of inter-family feuds that leads them to compromise the rights of the powerless. Never forget, it was a tribal council that ordered the gang rape of Mukhtar Mai for her brother’s offence against ‘honour’.

This also ties in with the horrifying human trafficking situation, too.

Joanne,

There are some people who try to deny these crimes exists or that it happens in large numbers. There are some who try to play with terminology. Regardless, women are being murdered and better services and protection should be provided to potential victims be it women or children. As for the legal part, laws shoould be changed in all countries that offers leniency to killers. I also think that punishments should also be imposed on other family members who actually sit and plot the murder even if they are 100 persons.

I think it depends on the circumstances: for us in the UK where there some level of state support it’s easy to insist on no mediation because there are other opportunities for that woman. Where the options are mediation or imprisonment for their own protection as they might be in Jordan, I guess mediation becomes a more attractive option.

This is invaluable consciousness raising today.

Never forget, it was a tribal council that ordered the gang rape of Mukhtar Mai for her brother’s offence against ‘honour’.

Which leads me to think that since these councils will act before any activist group will learn of it, that prior declaration of fines, privileges to be sacrificed, something in the nature of a loss – might be worked out as a standard established in advance.

I completely agree and very much welcome moves in Europe after the murder of Ghazala Khan and Banaz Mahmod to make this more common. I believe this shows a positive development in our understanding of these crimes. You have in your book pointed to the US as being particularly unprepared for ‘honour’ crimes – what would be your suggestions?

I think the US (NGOs, activists and governments) should look at Europe’s experience in handling these types of murders. The media should open up more to these casea and at the ame time not label people. The justice systemm could also play a stronger role in protecting the rights of victims of these murders andother forms of violence they are subjected to.

at the ame time not label people

I suppose you have found that, just as our right wing tends to use ‘illegal aliens’ to designate a group that it blames for its troubles, there may well be a tendency to use honor killings as a reason to treat societies where they occur as criminal, themselves.

While your suggestion sounds good, I think that in cases where the State is not particularly strong, there’s a reluctance to intervene in tribal matters for the sake of maintaining their support or being unwilling to confront them.

I remember reading a right-wing blogger commenting on the murder of Surjit Athwal and claiming that Sikhism was a branch of Islam, as an example of some pretty uninformed stereotyping which is unfortunately very common.

True. Seeing parallels to southern ‘justice’; sometimes it relies on existing family councils to maintain what is regarded as law n’ order. Just think it sounds reasonable to try.

true..if you lok carefully at the way the media uses some of its terminology usualy to describe an ’evil thing’ that is committed by a ’muslim or middle eastern’ man..such as hen someone kills a family or something of that sort…but u do not see the same kind of labelling or d=iscrition when a ’chrstian or a jewish or any other religion’ commiting a certain crime or felony!!!

Does this seem to deter more murders?

it does not deter murders, but labeling does a lot of dmage and encourages extremisim in ceratain societies that are constantly labelled!!

Welcome Rana and Joanne. It’s an privilege to have you both here at Firedoglake today and so enlightening to read this discussion and Rana’s amazing book.

Siun

Thanks for your supportive statments and amglad to learn that the book is realy helping raise awareness about this importanttopic.

It’s perhaps too early to say from the European experience whether more comprehensive prosecutions have a deterrent effect, although one would hope that at least the threat of imprisonment might reduce the number of people willing to collude in a crime. It’s a relatively new evolution in the European understanding of ‘honour’ crimes for all the conspirators believed to be involved to be investigated.

Thanks you Siun!

Joanne

i agree with you on europe…but at least now their justice system does not offers any amnesty on the justication that a crime was committed for ‘cultural reasons’

Rana – Syria recently increased the minimum sentence for so-called ‘honour’ killings from one year — to two, after a long campaign by the organisation Syrian Women’s Observatory. What was your reaction to this rather meagre concession?

On the other hand, there is IMO a lot to criticise in Europe’s treatment of immigrant women in particular. We have major problems with women who have no legal rights to support due to their immigration status which makes our task in protecting them from harm very difficult indeed.

i think that this is a positive step but not enough..i still firmly believe that a woman’s life is worth more that three months two years and even seven years……but the fact that they did some form of a change should be conisdered a positive step and we should always build on positive steps.

immigration status is another major problem and many women are suffering as a result..specifically ones who seek asylum because they are threatened to be killed by their families. On many occasions, they are denied asylum.

I have four brothers, one older, three younger. I can’t imagine what it would be like for my life if I had to worry about any of them “punishing” me for my sexual attachments or indiscretions. As they don’t have to worry about me “punishing” them for theirs. Especially if it means capital punishment.

I have tried, but failed, to understand the psychology behind honor killings. It seems like such a perversion of sibling relationships and/or parental relationships. Who can you trust to take care of you? to defend you against predators? Who says, I would rather my sister/daughter dead than lose my standing/status in the patriarchy? Desperados or what? what are they thinking?

What do you think of what is going on in Israel, whereby Israeli women are being strongly asked(?) not to date Arab men? Not sure if this has been brought up yet. I am at work on brief breaks.

unfortunately, some people tie their family’s honour with their daughters..meaning if the female did something that is conisdered ‘wrong’ they beleive her punishment is to die..they rather have her die than have hundreds or thousands of their family members die of shame!! that is how some people believe and they thin they will be outcasted from their communities if they did not ake action..to them..blood cleanses honour!!

cosperl, there is an excellent book by Ayse Onal where she interviews several so-called ‘honour’ killers imprisoned in Turkey. She found that many of these killers were plagued with regret and were under huge pressure from the community. It’s not just always a matter of losing status: where communities are very tightly knit, if people refuse to talk to you, or do business with you, or harass you constantly, if noone will then marry your other daughters and sons its a real threat to the family’s livelihood. I recommend the book very highly.

i think that it is unfaor to prevent someone from loving someone else because oftheir religion, race, background and economic status…but as is is teh case in many countries, u will see that religion sometimes is used to dictate certain things in people’s lives and this is really tough and should be fought by moderate religious figuers.

Can you provide a link, libbyliberal? I don’t know about this, but I did read a story about an Israeli woman being abducted and abused for getting a divorce, which definitely has strong resonances to the culture of collective ‘honour’ we are talking about here.

Rana, Joanne, Your thoughts on this story that come out in August of this year.

http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=8303567
Christian Teen Flees Home, Says She Fears Honor Killing by Muslim Father
Rifqa Bary Turned Up in Florida Pastor’s Home Weeks After Leaving Ohio Home
By SARAH NETTER

Aug. 12, 2009—

An Ohio teenager who secretly converted from Islam to Christianity has fled to Florida because she claims her father threatened her with an “honor killing” for abandoning her Muslim upbringing.

The girl’s father has gone to Florida where she sought refuge with a church that she found online. Although the father insists he is not a menace to his daughter, a Florida court has placed the 17-year-old girl in foster care until her claims can be investigated.

Fathima Rifqa Bary, who goes by Rifqa, left home in New Albany, Ohio, last month and hopped on a bus to Orlando to meet with husband and wife pastors Blake and Beverly Lorenz, who she met through a Facebook prayer group for the couple’s non-denominational Global Revolution Church.

“When she came to our house, she told us her parents would not report her missing,” Blake Lorenz told ABCNews.com.

But they did report their daughter missing and the disappearance reached local news stations and the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children.

Lorenz said Rifqa, a native of Sri Lanka, had secretly converted from Islam to Christianity four years ago, but her religion was only discovered recently. Rifqa had snuck out to an area church where, according to Lorenz, she had an “incredible encounter with Jesus.”

Lorenz said Rifqa was so moved she posted about it on her Facebook page, writings that would later be seen by her friends from her family’s mosque and reported to her father, Mohamed Bary.

“That’s when he threatened to kill her for the first time,” Lorenz said, adding that he didn’t know on how many other occasions that threat had been made.

The battle finally came to a head about a month ago, he said, when her mother found a Christian book in the house while Bary was out of town. Rifqa’s mother, he said, threatened to tell her father.

“She did say she was dead to her” if she didn’t renounce her Christian faith, Lorenz said.

Rifqa confirmed to ABC’s Orlando affiliate WFTV that she believed her father would kill her.

“They have to kill me because I’m a Christian. It’s an honor [killing]. If they love me more than God, then they have to kill me,” she explained.

Terrifed and fearing she would be the victim of an honor killing, she got on a bus and borrowed a cell phone to contact Beverly Lorenz who she had been communicating with after finding the Lorenzes’ church on Facebook.

I agree, and I think the control of women by the group is the key feature here. We find that there is a high correlation of forced and non-consensual marriage and so-called ‘honour’ crimes, with violence directed against women who refuse to accept the partner chosen for them, or who choose a partner for themselves.

Ruth, you got a hat tip at Raw Story.

http://www.informationclearing…..e23573.htm

Israeli Drive to Prevent Jewish Girls Dating Arabs
By Jonathan Cook

NAZARETH : A local authority in Israel has announced that it is establishing a special team of youth counsellors and psychologists whose job it will be to identify young Jewish women who are dating Arab men and “rescue” them.

The move by the municipality of Petah Tikva, a city close to Tel Aviv, is the latest in a series of separate – and little discussed – initiatives from official bodies, rabbis, private organisations and groups of Israeli residents to try to prevent interracial dating and marriage.

In a related development, the Israeli media reported this month that residents of Pisgat Zeev, a large Jewish settlement in the midst of Palestinian neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem, had formed a vigilante-style patrol to stop Arab men from mixing with local Jewish girls. Hostility to intimate relationships developing across Israel’s ethnic divide is shared by many Israeli Jews, who regard such behaviour as a threat to the state’s Jewishness. One of the few polls on the subject, in 2007, found that more than half of Israeli Jews believed intermarriage should be equated with “national treason”.

it goes on….

i agree with joanne…

Thanks, I’ll check that out.

I’ve not been terribly convinced by the Riqfa Bary story as it’s been presented here, Beverly. I confess I haven’t researched it thoroughly, but even so, if we are defining ‘honour’ crimes as collective murders this is not one by any means, and which also applies to the murder of Aasiya Hassan.

Thanks libby. I would say that ‘honour’ can indeed be related to ideas of racial purity – particularly if there is no mention of similar restrictions on Jewish males! In Numbers 26:6-8, Phineas murders a couple who have married across tribal lines. This again shows a collective wish to control people’s individual sexual choices.

Hello. I am wondering if there are any reasonably good statistics about the number of honor killings & the countries in which they occur? I would think they are probably very underreported.

There is a (rather old now) UN estimate of 5000 a year, but there are huge problems in reporting as some are faked as suicides, where there are conspiracies it becomes a lot easier to cover up a crime as an accidental death, or there may be collusion by police in covering up murders, and in some cases women and girls are not registered at birth so they don’t officially exist. UK police estimate 12 a year here, forming about 10% of domestic femicides.

NCGal

the UN and the world health organiasation estimated in 2000 based on studies that around 5,000 women get killed every year…in pakistan in oone province they talk about around 1,000.. in jordan the annuak figure is 20, syria is between 200-300 and same in yemen..but u r right..i would day that there are cases that goes unreported or other incidents such as forced suicide, suicide and accidental deaths that could be related to honour matters but are never reported.

Thank you, Joanne.

As we come to the end of this interesting Book Salon,

Rana, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us discussing your new book and honor killings.

Joanne, Thank you very much for Hosting this Book Salon.

Everyone, if you haven’t bought Rana’s book yet, here is a link.

Thanks all.

thank you for a great debate and for your interest in this topic :)

Lots of sexism with fundamental tribalism, power and control addiction, and that DOUBLE STANDARD you mentioned, that my mind skated right over reading the article. This is happening on so many fronts lately, gender repression and patriarchical paradigm of militarism, competition and power, not partnership and cooperation, internationally. The return to “fundamentalism” … circling the wagons.

I was flabbergasted when I started reading reports that the Afghan women wanted the U.S. out! Because I thought the American presence to protect the women of Afghan from Taliban repression was at least something.

I hoped HRC being a woman as SOS … she would be more sensitized … but her militarism and strong Israel bias has alarmed me.

Thanks for the tip. I will try to find the book.

Thanks everyone. Good luck in promoting your book Rana, and the greatest respect to you and to your work.

Again, thanks for consciousness raising today. Good luck Joanne and Rana.