From reports of ever increasing US and NATO casualties along with continuing reports of the suffering of the Afghan people – and complete confusion over the recent election, none of the news from Afghanistan is good.
And while President Obama initially seemed to fully embrace this occupation as his very own “good war,” his administration is now sending mixed signals about what the next steps will look like. As Nancy Yousef of McClatchy writes:
The administration’s seeming indecisiveness may be due to late realization of just how big a commitment would be required to pacify Afghanistan, a senior defense official told McClatchy.
Meanwhile, support is beginning to weaken amongst democrats and even some major Democratic Senators and Congressmembers are taking a second look.
Yet none of this seems to worry Gen. McChrystal who has apparently completed his situation review and – surprise, surprise – requested more troops. Now McChrystal, through his friends at the Pentagon is trying to pressure Obama to release his report and give him carte blanche:
In Kabul, some members of McChrystal’s staff said they don’t understand why Obama called Afghanistan a "war of necessity" but still hasn’t given them the resources they need to turn things around quickly.
Three officers at the Pentagon and in Kabul told McClatchy that the McChrystal they know would resign before he’d stand behind a faltering policy that he thought would endanger his forces or the strategy.
"Yes, he’ll be a good soldier, but he will only go so far," a senior official in Kabul said. "He’ll hold his ground. He’s not going to bend to political pressure."
And while McChrystal’s team is issuing these not-so-veiled threats, they are also finding ways to slip more forces into the country without a completed policy review and Commader in Chief decision.
On Thursday, the Washington Post reported that Defense Secretary Gates is sending 3,000 extra troops – but is calling them “enablers” and claiming the “flexibility” to ignore the limits.
On Saturday, the LA Times reported that “the nation’s spy services are under pressure from Army Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal to improve intelligence on the Taliban and find ways to reverse a series of unsettling trends.” The result of that pressure:
The CIA is deploying teams of spies, analysts and paramilitary operatives to Afghanistan, part of a broad intelligence "surge" that will make its station there among the largest in the agency’s history, U.S. officials say.
… Precise numbers are classified, but one U.S. official said the agency already has nearly 700 employees in Afghanistan.
The spies are being used in various assignments — teaming up with special forces units pursuing high-value targets, tracking public sentiment in provinces that have been shifting toward the Taliban and collecting intelligence on corruption in the Afghan government.
This CIA expansion which is closely tied to special forces operations is particularly worrisome given McChrystal’s record as head of abusive special operations teams in Iraq.
While not noting these efforts to create a de facto surge, Sen. Carl Levin yesterday did take note of the McChrystal power play, saying:
"Everyone should want the benefit of General McChrystal’s comments and recommendations, but with two caveats," Levin said during an appearance Sunday on CNN’s "State of the Union with John King."
"He’s just in the chain of command, and there’s higher-ups," Levin said. "This is not a situation like General Petraeus in Iraq, when the president basically said, whatever the commander in Iraq wants, he’s going to get."
Levin is just one of the US legislators who counters his unease with the likely McChrystal plan by advocating a massive increase in Afghanistan’s own military, a “solution” that presents massive problems of its own – including the fact that the Afghan economy cannot in any way support the expense of the proposed force size.
And our approach to training such an Afghan force is not going very well as Ann Jones reports in her on-the-ground report just published at Tom Dispatch. Jones’ article is a must read as she details all the ways this effort is both wrongheaded and absurd. Her analysis after spending time with the Afghan troops that:
American military planners and policymakers already proceed as if, with sufficient training, Afghans can be transformed into scale-model, wind-up American Marines. That is not going to happen. Not now. Not ever. No matter how many of our leaders concur that it must happen — and ever faster.
Her warning is unfortunately unlikely to be heard in Washington where the giddiness of post 9/11 revenge thinking turned to face-saving good war talk – and now to slowly growing concern that there may be no good answers.
It’s clearly time for a complete re-evaluation of just why we are there at all – and what, if anything might be done right. While the generals will of course continue to push for control, our civilian leadership must insist on something more than a full employment program for the four stars.
As Steve Hynd so aptly sums it all up over at Newshoggers in response to President Obama’s comment to ABC News that he “just want[s] to make sure that everybody understands that you don’t make decisions about resources before you have the strategy ready.”:
Dude, Where’s My Strategy?




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So we can hope?
If that’s true, he should have been gone several weeks ago. I wonder if the troops get the same option.
I’m listening to Halberstam’s book on the Korean War and it reminded me that there was a time in U.S. history when the commander-in-chief expected the military to um, well, like, ya know, actually DO something, and the generals were actually held accountable if they didn’t accomplish the mission. Starting with VN, the generals have been able to get away with whining, wheedling, cajoling, threatening to warrant accomplishing nothing for years and years.
Listened to an interview on antiwar.com that mentioned that you can get out of most contracts, often quite easily. But not the one that 18 year olds (who aren’t old enough to drink and whose brains don’t mature for another several years) sign for 4 years.
Deja vu. Just like Odierno in the early months.
I can’t imagine why any commander in C would put up with that.
No stopping the generals. War is their business and they want their soldiers and wars and tanks and choppers. They’ll never say time to leave… especially with the low level assym conflicts. It’s a wet dream for them.. a never ending more. rotation in and out forever. Take a town… move on then lose it and then retake it and lose it.
This is so transparent since VN. We have no business there. Never did.
Obama is a jerk on this one no ifs ands or buts.
The U.S. has botched things in Afghanistan ever since they decided to make it a proxy war with the Soviets, and made it the largest covert program in U.S. history, embracing the worst sorts of warlords and enabling, and financing, extreme Islamic fundamentalists. Then they thought they could walk away once their mission was done.
Surprise! 9/11, Al Qaeda, a rising China, and nukes in the hands of both the Indians and Pakistanis — that and whatever oil/gas pipelines and resources might be at stake, and the U.S. rushes back in to face… much the same allies, now foes, they backed before. With this exception… with the victory of the Islamic Right, much of the best of the secular forces were decimated, or escaped, and there’s not much to work with.
Afghanistan is not a state in the way most Americans would think of a state entity. It is an embryonic state, with very little control over much of the countryside. This government doesn’t know how to think about what to do, and every attempt to seek a military solution draws them in deeper and deeper.
Any possible U.S. pullout is linked to the situation in Iraq. The total failure of the U.S. Middle East-Central Asia policy is imminient. The Soviet state managed to drive itself into steep collapse. What will the U.S. state do?
A full and total withdrawal from Afghanistan is called for. It will not bring about peace. And it will have its own set of serious problems. But the alternative is far, far worse. This intelligence “surge” is sure to have its own set of torture and other atrocities; we read about them, in fact, at least weekly in the press.
Hopefully, Obama will be able to resist McChrystal’s power play, but he will have to resist a lot more if the U.S. is to extricate itself from 30 years of bad policy in that part of the world.
BTW, counting contractors, the U.S. has more military in Afghanistan than the Soviets did, and they won the war, until the U.S. supplied the Stingers. How incompetent is the U.S. military?
Started with VN. See my 3.
The DOD is like the health care debate in that the fundamentals are off the table.
Why do we need insurance companies who do nothing but pay claims in the best of worlds? We don’t. The gov can send out checks cheaper.
Why do we need a DOD when we have no enemies who are interested in attacking the continental USA and none capable except Canada and Mexico? We don’t.
But in both cases we have them there and no one will say get rid of them. They’re missin the mission.
But the U.S. didn’t pull out after the Soviets left. That wasn’t good enough. The U.S. went mucking about with our allies the Taliban until they got rid of Najibullah.
The one campaign promise Obama is keeping is his vow to focus on, expand, and escalate in Afghanistan. The expansion of covert forces there under McChrystal may not be counter to the CIC’s wishes in any way – thats why you pick a guy like that, one who isn’t afraid to wade deep into the ‘dark side’ as it were.
$4 billion a month over there, and the Democrats still have the gall to raise nickel-and-dime objections on things like health care for Americans? amazing.
Oh, and BTW, McChrystal is a real looker. Makes my heart go pitty-pat.
It’s not about winning anything ever. It’s about having a huge military machine and making up BS missions to deploy it.
Even the cold war with the USSR was total BS.
The Russians are Coming the Russians are Coming. Get under your desks and into your fall out shelters.
If it’s not one lie, it’s another. They staged 911 to scare the pants off americans and they got a few trillion to play with. Now we are not waving the flag and sticking magnets on our bumpers so it’s time for another false flag to get everyone in lockstep. Obama will fall in line. He’s a made man.
Couple of points that no one is talking about for whatever it’s worth.
1. The results of the election or its impact are yet to be determined.
2. Winter is coming when activity is significantly lessened.
The right can’t stand leftists as heads of state so they bump them off. They are pissed at Cuba and now Venezuela and they took out Zaliah in Hondourus. It’s their mission. Kill the commies.
Precisely Jeff …
The news that McChrystal wanted and is getting CIA special ops folks is particularly chilling.
America is a rogue aggressor nation. That’s how MOST of the world sees us.
Siun is having computer troubles. She hopes to have them cleared up and join us soon.
missles…..espensive
hey lets use/lose ALOT
BTW, the Ann Jones article is a major must read … I can’t recommend it highly enough.
Welcome back..)
Thanks Eureka … I’m on and off … so if I don’t respond, it’s not that I don’t want to!
YUP…he is a double bagger………….some chromosomes obviously got crossed up…G
cant mess with the free flow of mooolah to the corps
Yep. Another thing I’m learning from Halberstam’s book on Korean War is how much at dagger’s drawn Mao and Stalin were, right from the getgo. It should have been obvious to anyone with half a brain. Yet the U.S. got all bent out of shape about the commies taking over the world. Pure BS.
I pointed out some time ago that the discussions in Washington on McChrystal’s report were a giveaway that McChrystal had asked for the moon and that even an Obama Administration bent on escalation would have trouble accommodating him. From what I have been able to cobble together about McChrystal he seems to be taking a numbers based approach. He wants to increase the size of the Afghan Army and police forces above 400,000 with what Ann Jones describes as wind up Marines. This completely ignores the ethnic and tribal nature of Afghan society and the deep divisions between groups. It also ignores the very low educational level of most recruits. On the other hand, he wants to work with warlords and the corrupt central government.
I also have criticized Obama for delegating policy making to generals. Policy should be Obama’s job. Yet after all the year’s we have been in Afghanistan we still have no discernible policy. Instead we have our army in a country and are basically trying to come up with a rationale for why it is there and should remain there. The last person you would want to ask for their opinion in such a situation is the commanding general. They are always for fighting the war at hand. They almost never question if that war is worth fighting in the first place. Like so much else in this Presidency, it is an extension, not a rejection, of Bush.
That should work out well. /s
Hmmm where is the Savior, second coming of christ, Petreaus on this?
Hmmmmmm….
McChrystal could be getting set up to take a very hard fall. He’s too far out in front. Obama has replaced one general already….what’s another.
Rummy and Darth admitted to hyping it to increases $$$$$$$$$$$ at pentagon…ill search for link
For all the alleged secrecy in the W admin, they sure had big mouths.
YES …its all BULLSHIT
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1207-26.htm
Ike knew
his Beware of Military industrial Congressional Complex speech
typical CHICKENHAWK bully/knownothings
I hope you are right Brat but McChrystal is part of a little cabal of generals who all circle around Petraeus. In fact, I’d say his appointment was a replacement of a non-Petraeus in 2012 move.
At some point though, Obama and team may realize the generals are – as you so rightly say – too far out in front.
If they really look at that – or if Rahm recognizes the political threat from this crew – we might see some changes.
Where is William Westmoreland when we really need him? /s
Yep, I’m familiar with that part of the story. Don’t know the material well enough yet to recall it when it’s relevant.
Ike for all his leaving office warning, presided over a MIC buildup. He’s like those generals who don’t tell the truth until after they retire.
Could we have a strategy focused solely on catching bin Laden?
Gates is their man on the inside. He’s in the perfect position to undermine O at the drop of a hat. Gates is quite a careerist who always comes out on top.
who?
Why? He’s completely hemmed in and powerless. And terrorism is so minor it’s hardly worth mentioning. Give it up.
Both Mao and Stalin were autocrats. Mao believed in permanent or at least episodic revolution as long as he remained the maximal leader at the end of each revolutionary cycle. Stalin was strongly opposed to any revolution he could not fully control and manipulate. Mao thought the USSR should help China more. Stalin believed in helping the USSR his base of power first and always.
No, because that wouldn’t serve the war profiteers. If you want to know the actual motive behind any government policy, follow the money.
the more the layers are peeled back this country is a smelly rotten onion,that is PERFECTLY willing to let 40 to 50 thousand of its OWN citizens die in misery and penury EVERY YEAR
Crap. That is all I have read here. You folks seem to find it really OK to abandon Afganistan women to the Taliban. Peachy. Of course it is tribal, and difficult; that Bush took his eye off the ball is true without doubt. And you folks think Obama is supposed to correct things in nine months? Bush screwed this up over almost eight years, and you are faulting Obama for not resolving things yet?
Seems clear, Democrats eat their young. Shame on us.
DM
another tiny man like Betrayus
ayup
and good eve ratty
lalalalalala
lets keep bombing the hellout of them
you must destroy the villages to save them!
hi-hi-hi to you, sadly.
Yep, that’s a good summary of what Halberstam sez. I just didn’t know it before. I’m a history moran (sic) unless I’ve read a book on the subject in the last decade.
Hey…that makes way too much sense. And it would be relatively cheap, too. Hence, the idea should be summarily dismissed.
That started with the U.K. and the U.S. in WWII.
That’s one claim that just about everyone over 50 can tell you is BS.
You might want to go read about the Iron Curtain and what life was like on the other side of it, before it came down 20 years ago.
I think the question is “can we fix it” and I don’t think we can. I certainly would like to but the Afghans have defeated everyone who has invaded their country. And if I have to choose between Afghans and our troops, the answer is clear.
Isn’t that rather like burning, bombing, shelling the village to save it?
Hasn’t the population started to turn against the Taliban lately? Aren’t there other ways to take them out? Do we really need to go to war with everyone in the country? I am asking seriously.
Yes, the U.S. is completely competent, and really ought to save the women in Afghanistan. That’s a really good reason for bombing the country. /s
Read Overthrow by Kinzer. Just about every country the U.S. has mucked about in has turned out a lot worse for the U.S. effort.
WW1 methinks….whatever….killing is fun/
Aardvark,
I’d recommend reading what the women of RAWA and what Malalai Joya have to say about our role in “protecting” women … and check the reporting at Rethink Afghanistan on the same subject:
http://www.rawa.org
http://www.malalaijoya.com/index1024.htm
http://rethinkafghanistan.com/blog/?p=604
Why?
The answer is no.
Next! *G*
Where has anyone said that?
We’re saying that what we’re doing now is wrong.
Maybe if we’d done what we promised them, years ago, things would be a lot better for them and for us.
(Also: ‘you folks’ is a troll-bingo point.)
As I understand WWI, the fighting took place outside the population areas, and that in the sparcely settled areas that it took place in, the noncoms were evacuated or not targeted.
Sniff, sniff, sniff.
Yep. That under the bridge smell.
But I’ll say, there IS no solution. We’re doing NOTHING for the ‘women’ of Afghanistan.
Time to pull out, save billions.
Save our selves at home, with jobs.
Yeah, I’m a dreamer, but you got nuthin.
I just talked to your bridge, it misses ya.
Graveyard of empires, ours included.
I’ve heard that this book is a good introduction to the mess in Afghanistan:
Into the Land of Bones, by Frank L. Holt. It’s about Alexander the Great and his war there.
(Yes, it does go back that far.)
Yeah, we saved Dresden and its civilians real good, and all that art and history, too.
My Lai, too.
And when is Stanley the General going to be investigated for war crimes for detainee treatment under his command in Iraq, anyway? That’s long past due.
I think aardvark’s argument unravels at the first assumption that Obama is acting in good faith, on Afghanistan, health care, or any other issue. All of Obama’s national security policies to date suggest he is yet another neocon.
I’d recommend a reading of Vera Brittain’s Testament of Youth for a realistic view of WWI – it’s a stunning read.
Several countries have successfully conquered Afghanistan. The Soviets are the most recent one, until U.S. stingers arrived. I believe the Persians did it, and I don’t know enough history to remember the others.
this is true,i guess im thinking the gassing massive casualties,and gas dropped from the air…first all out war
sounds intresting
OT
remember the young woman who blogged from Iraq? Then she left the country. I think she ended up in Lebanon. Her name was Miriam. Does anyone know what happened to her?
i dont think i could stand to read any more about it…it was truly a blood letting
So the CIA has an unspecified number of Afghans they plan to insert into the population? All of a sudden these faces that have been absent from their tribe for an extended period of time are immediately going to have the trust of any locals sympathetic to the Taliban? Or are the spies Americans? Sounds like the Phoenix Program sans brains.
Put it in my shopping cart. Are you saying my characterization of the lack of civilian targeting in WWI is wrong? I didn’t mean that the war didn’t influence the civilians, just that it was many orders of magnitude removed from the deliberate genocidal bombing of civilians that the U.K. and the U.S. did in WWII.
But that was directed at troops, not civilians. I further clarified in 73.
My first thought, too. No, we will nevah learn.
The “we’re there to save the women” bs from Shrub’s days? What a lame crock.
Partially available online.
Certainly not the first all-out war, simply the first on that scale and with modern weaponry. Wholesale slaughter is as old as humanity. Homicidal Sapiens would be a more apt description.
I saw that movie In the Loop. They (those in control) sweat out the bad pr stress, and then if they don’t get their way with acclamation, they LIEe and do what they want anyway.
Chilling stuff. Lack of transparency, one more time. We’ll just change the name. Colonization for corporate exploitation, never mind deaths of Afghans or young Americans. HUBRIS of military brass and now current administration.
Along with my health care calls I ask to get us out of Afghanistan.
Thanks Siun.
Siun, great read and great comments all (for the most part).
We have NO business other than mega corp oligarch corporatist interests in being at war in Afghan, Iraq, or elsewhere outside our borders.
We got war enuff to fix our OWN living standard, and middle class.
And we’re losin that one, too. Sad.
sooo.. how long before the influx of new CIA and “contractors” put together an all-new “poppy-express” for fun and profit ala air america in thailand in the ’60’s ??
any bets ???
So likely to succeed, eh?
BTW, I heard someone argue that gas is quite an effective weapon, that the winners of WWI had banned because it was so cheap, and the U.S. wanted its economic advantage to count in warfare. Don’t know if that’s accurate or not, but it is an intriguing thought.
I think you’ll find Brittain worth reading … her experiences during WWI led to her work throughout the rest of her life opposing wars … her later writing on the run up to WW2 is enlightening…
My impression, like yours, is that civilians were not the targets … but the real experience of WW1 is a tale rarely told.
Brittain fought her family for permission to go to Oxford then left to nurse throughout the war …
Women are oppressed allover. We don’t invade and attack a country to save women. And our soldiers will often rape them… at least some of them. Soldiers are not known for their feminists perspective.
We have no business having a militarist approach to the rest of the world. END OF STORY.
Aside from the fact that we invaders rarely win in the end. What are we doing interfering in the internal affairs of other nations?
They are not interfering inside ours.
Probably only semantics, but I’ve never thought the Soviets actually CONQUERED Afghanistan.
They certainly didn’t RULE it, as the opposition was huge, despite being outgunned.
And sure, our Stingers and support of the Taliban (Ronnie’s Freedom Fighters) helped get USSR out of Afghan.
But they were being drained economically from what they DID have in Afghan, and it was only a matter of time before they went broke from it anyways.
Cliche, but Afghan WAS their Dien Bien Phu, like Vietnam was ours.
You can’t BEAT and WIN in those instances unless you relocate MILLIONS of people to repopulate.
And that wasn’t being done in Vietnam, OR Afghanistan.
We’re doomed there, one way or another, sooner than later.
Short of repopulation and relocating PRESENT populations, you can’t WIN these ‘wars’ invasions.
true dat…sadlyyes
Well, they were so adept at training right-wing death squads in Central America back in the ’80s, I’m confident they can elevate body counts in Asia (again) too.
Ecahn, my #64 just released from moderation was in AGREEMENT with ya, BTW, if that wasn’t clear.
Oh, I think the CIA drug trade in Af-Pak has been well established for many years. Haven’t come across any good stories on it yet, but if the past is prelude, they set it up immediately in 2001.
Besides regular history books on WWI, I’ve read All Quite on the Western Front, and also a memoir by a German soldier (can’t remember his rank, but think he was a low level officer) which was truly extraordinary. I’ll try to track it down.
i’m sure you’re right … but a big influx is bound to distort the situation .
Storm of Steel by Ernst Jűnger, 288 pages, 12/18/06; a first hand what, when & where of the horrors of WWI—German POV—classic. He was wounded something like 14 times.
so many were killed and maimed or went CRAZY,that almost every family was somehow affected,of course they still had the stomach to start all over 20 years later
Let me know if you find any good articles describing what is actually going on. That kind of stuff usually doesn’t come out until much later.
Easiest way to establish a relationship with the growers is to provide transportation to market. Air America flew a lot of raw opium into Saigon for processing back in the day.
Doesn’t Blackwater / Xe have air support contracts throughout the area? Follow that money plane. /s
20 years was actually a relatively long time for not having a European war.
“Yes, he’ll be a good soldier, but he will only go so far,” a senior official in Kabul said. “He’ll hold his ground. He’s not going to bend to political pressure
It is amazing how these generals can all grow a pair now. When bush was in office they were satisfied with sending our young men and women there as cannon fodder indefinitely. We’ve already been there for 7 years with NO plan. I guess the military leadership must have a good case of amnesia.
Until they established the processing plants at the source. Then the transportation efficiency went up a lot, as they shipped product nor raw.
LIkely, the distribution route’s in and out of Afghanistan are already under our control, there already is OUR control of the pipelines.
And our military and ‘advisors’ are active in it all.
Cuz that’s how drugs get changed for guns to prop something else.
My old man was AID, part of USOM, and we LIVED in Vietnam and Thailand. And Laos.
We were booted outta his State Dept job and SE ASIA due to his objections to using his civilian aid program to funnel spooks and drugs thru his agency. Helping the civilian population was NOT a priority, once the wheels of MinderBender, Inc. began to spin in ‘62.
Just a little personal experience as a child with how things are done in these matters. *G*
i guess its a generation,or 2 they must like remodeling/refurbs/
Might have been longer if the terms of the Treaty of Versailles hadn’t been so harsh. We’ll never know.
Between Korea and Viet Nam the only way to get promoted in the Army was if somebody above you died or retired. Endless war makes for employment opportunities for college grads with good promotion prospects. As Don Corleone would say, “Nothing personal, it’s just business.”
yup,spawned Hitler
Spooks, too. *G*
Be a lot fewer wars if the leaders paid the price instead of the populace.
Presented him with opportunities, anyway.
sigh
where have all the flowers gone?
Heh, we lost pallets full of bilions of $ and pick up pallets full of opium.
Same game, dif country.
he was so enraged at the T of V
Someone here put me onto The Causes of War by Blainey. He argues that without the harsh penalties on Germany they might have been ready to go to war even earlier. It’s a really interesting read because it trashes a lot of easy ways of thinking about war. In the interest of taking a hard unemotional look at the subject. Read it.
wonder who was the first chickenhawk
My understanding is that’s one of the things we’d like to disrupt. Most of the opium ends up in Russia over routes established long ago and controlled by locals.
loooking back,so many POVs
i did a tour TDY to DIA in the late ’60’s in VN … some of the shit we witnessed .. it was hard to tell which side the spooks were really on..ya know …
He was kind of a pissy guy, he’d have found something to be enraged about in any event. Would have had a harder time attracting followers if unemployment and inflation hadn’t been raging out of control in Germany, however.
Interesting POV. Field Marshall Foch said the reparation payments would ensure another war with Germany in another 20 years.
I might have to pick that up. What is his main theory of what would drive Germany to war sooner? In a nutshell.
i can not even imagine a war zone,ive only been in a Cat 5 hurricane,actually 2………..devastation without hostilities………..still very bad…but……..
OT: I’m no great fan of your guv’ner either but I took some pleasure in his telling Obama to stuff it.
another book………..poor tigerz
You have to look at the totality of the arguement. Blainey argues that the causes of war and peace are the same: the desire to impose your will on another country. If you think you can do it more easily by war, that is the chosen method. If you think you’re not strong enough militarily to do that, you wage peace instead, i.e., negotiation, and all that other stuff. To be sure, the calculation about whether you can prevail via war is often erroneous, as hubris makes countries misoverestimate their military capabilities.
As for Hitler, he was gonna get power in Germany even without the harsh treaty terms. The country was a mess, the Weimar republic election rules made it easy for a tyrant to seize power, he got the 1936 Olympics, which was the signal to the Germans that their beloved country was back. And as soon as he got power and had enough weapons, he was going to war.
See my 123. Then ask again if I haven’t characterized it clearly enough. It was a fascinating book and I’m sorry I can’t remember the pup who put me onto it.
Books? Tigerz? Go read It’s Caturday.
I would disagree that most military leaders want war. That’s just not what I saw teaching on Camp Pendleton for many years. There are lots of smart Marines.
Yes, they generally trend republican, but unless something has drastically changed in the last few years, they respect their CIC.
They have families that they love, they have friends they love, and they want to live.
They love America.
You betcha. I haven’t sent O an irreverent email yet, and may not, but if I did, I’d tell him to save his bully pulpet for things that really matter like the public option and get his interfering nose out of other people’s business.
well yes the sociopathic route to dominance is war…Hitler was wounded and rotted inprison in WW1,and had time to go round the bend,and stew in it
Well, if we DON’T control them by now, we will.
And I’d be SURPRISED if we don’t control a sig part of the distribution routes by now.
Disrupt? Heh, TAKE OVER, hoss!
*waves*
Story somewhere today that they don’t respect O as CIC. And they certainly didn’t respect Clinton. Hmmm. The hint of a pattern.
Thanks. Right off the top of my head I’m thinking there might be a flaw in his theory if Germany’s economy hadn’t taken such a hit from the victorious countries insisting on the repayment of reparations regardless of the depression. Interesting.
i shall,partake
I’ve seen an interview with Leni Riefenstahl in which she stated that if you listen to Hitler’s speeches during the early-mid ’30s, most of it related to jobs and prosperity.
Kind of like our leaders, they promise prosperity but in the end we just get war.
Almost finished rereading King of the Mountain by Arnold Ludwig. Another MUST read. Turns out lots of 20th C rulers spent time in prison or exile and used the time to write their chef d’oeuvres.
Agreed. Gates is the ultimate survivor… Reagan/Bush, Bush/Cheney, now Obama/Biden. He knows how to play the game, has ties in CIA (as former chief there), and for a temp/transition SecDef looks to be quite permanent where he is (not that Obama ever said he was temp… that’s what the Obama apologists for his appointment were saying at the time).
It was the hit to the German economy that delayed the start of WWII, according to Blainey.
The Causes of War by Geoffrey Blainey
Very wrong. Civilian deaths actually exceeded military!
The Germans targeted London, Stalingrad, Moscow. The Brits and US firebombed Dresden. The US firebombed Toyko. The Japanese targeted Nanking and Manilla. The Russians Berlin.
And I think I read somewhere about the Germans targeting some other civilian population groups.
Read again, she was talking about The Great War, not WWII.
Are you saying that civilian deaths exceeded military in WWI or WWII?
We were long gone and booted out by late ‘62.
Kicked out, disgraced, and lucky to get home stateside.
I’m SURE it got worse by the time you did your tour.
Wonder how many other stories there are out there about set up’s, and bringdowns, to eliminate civilian and international aid programs then, and since. I’ve heard a few about Iraq in this forum. Sure sounded familiar.
Patterns. They don’t seem to change.
Thanks for adding to my posited POV, which as a child, shaped me forever.
And thanks for your service . . . sorry it was then, for that, for all of you who DID serve there.
And I don’t mean to question your, or anyone else’s, service then.
Many were drafted, many enlisted. All for different reasons.
And too many came home in a box, if they came home.
I have problems with them boxes. A couple of them had my high school pals or their older brothers.
Sigh. We move on. I hope we never forget why war is bad. Especially the wars we have waged post WW2.
Thanks. I thought that was the confusion. Yes, in WWII, the civilians casualties far exceeded those of the military. Most of it related to U.K. and U.S. bombing. IIRC, the U.K. started it, even before the Germans bombed London. And then went hog wild after the Germans retaliated by bombing London. The U.S. in Europe tried to hold to a policy of bombing tactical targets for awhile, but finally gave that up in a fit of pique. U.S. bombing of civilians in Japan also had a racial element.
Nothing of military significance was achieved via that genocide. Population worked harded for their country, did not become demoralized.
OOPS, to you (and thanks ratfood) I’ll be off cleaning my glasses. WWI wasn’t anywhere near as dirty for civilians and French civilian deaths were about a quarter million IIRC which would be about 1/5 of French military deaths.
I’ve never heard that Britain ever bombed German civilians pre Battle Of Britain, when Germany began the assualt on Britain, early in ‘41?
I thought that Germany was the aggressor from the get go, and I’ve never read or seen or heard that Britain bombed Germany pre Battle Of Britain, only AFTER.
This is a huge piece of missing general history on my part, got more to share about this?
Cuz THAT’S huge! Thanks for sharing!
I had a lengthy conversation once with a friend’s dad who was in the German military during WWII. Interesting to hear his perspective. He said (as you noted) the U.S. preferred military targets and bombed at night, partly because it was somewhat less dangerous for their flight crews. The Brits on the other hand targeted population centers during the day when people were out conducting their affairs, maximizing civilian casualties.
As you also noted, before it was over with the Luftwaffe decimated the Brits and the U.S. were both bombing civilian and military targets night and day.
Here’s the book: Among the Dead Cities—The History and Moral Legacy of the WWII Bombing of Civilians in Germany and Japan by A.C. Grayling, 281 pages, 2/5/08; a very thorough & fair (I think) assessment of the strategic bombing of civilians by a respectable British philosopher; just the book I was looking for
My late husband’s family left Dusseldorf after Krystallnacht. I went back with my son and his sister first in 1988, when I noticed all the bomb damage. It took me until 08 to find the book that detailed it all.
oy Baz just had another seizure
call me crazy but rubbing his ears softly seems to help…he has a vet appt tomorrow
From Wiki. I think you’re right. Lots of sources listed with this article.
Damn, forgot the link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S…..t_bombings
Whatever works. Isn’t he on medication?
20 minute interval,not so bad,hope its over
starts tomorrow
i put a mattress pad underneath him…im going to check into acupuncture too
Huup, stayin’ up late on a school night. There’s a price to pay for that behaviour.
McChrystal’s a moron.
Be good to yourselves, and all other living things.
Namaste
Hmm . . . thanks for corroboration.
But EChan has that book she refers to in her #146.
As I said, this would be the FIRST I’ve ever heard of Britain bombing German civvie’s, pre Battle Of Britain.
I’m not saying it didn’t happen. Not at ALL!
LOTS of shit has happened even in MY life I never would have believed, and it’s not well reported or available at hand.
Man, I was SO hep at 16, knowing our own family experience with our govt.
But I was STUPID, then, about it all compared to what we know now, about history, and our own government’s escapades over the decades.
Of course, we also have the past 8 years to learn from which ARE mightily documented, ain’t they. *G* *waves*
nite,nite,and thanks for all the goodthoughts
Bows to the Southern Dragon and whistles ‘be well’ in Venusian (sci fi book). *G*
word!
Yep, I’ll have to check the library to see if they have a copy. Not something I would normally buy.
Best wishes to you and Baz.
Interlibrary loan if your library doesn’t have it.
Robert Heinlein-Between Planets.
Dragons play a PROMINENT part in this sci fi drama of Earth, Venus, and Mars.
*G*
Had to go look for the danged paperback to recall what book it was.
Whistling Dragons, Of Venus.
cool site
goodnite all
http://www.canine-epilepsy-gua….._After.htm
its a 9-5 job since VN
Does it confirm Brithish civilian bombing? Pre Battle Of Britain?
Thanks for all your sharing.
I had chills on your post about your ex’s family, and “Dusseldorf after Krystallnacht.”
May the gods forgive and never again. *bows*
Greetings :-) and Happy Eid to any Muslims reading :-)
For anyone interested there’s a very good collection of articles/studies edited by Tanaka and Young link to Amazon entry for it follows:
Amazon.com: Bombing Civilians: A Twentieth-century History (9781595583635): Marilyn B. Young: Books
It’s well worth both your time and your money.
Early morning here and I got up to good news from Irak which is that we got literally double what we’d set as our Ramadan fund-raising targets for our children’s homes there. Nice to get up to some good news for a change.
mfi
Very glad to hear of your fund-raising success, markfromireland.
I believe most folks have wandered upstairs.
Just wandered by again. I think you mistook my point. Windup Marines is not a comment on our soldiers but a perspective on what McChrystal thinks he can turn illiterate, tribalized Afghans into.
It is so refreshing to have some good news for a change :-) That’s some badly needed water treatment units and a replacement generator.
“Chilling”? I don’t get that.
To me it’s just obvious McChrystal needed some help.
While we’re there we should do it right. And, when CiC says it’s time to leave we leave. McChrystal commands in the field, not in the WH.
We could if we knew where in the world to look for bin Waldo.
It’s one thing catching someone you can chase, but the world is a big place to go ’round looking. Not that we couldn’t do things to catch someone leaving a trail, but if he’s still around it’s likely he’s keeping off the grid and none of his supporters is going to be blabbing about his whereabouts.
Anybody here ever read Ahmed Rashid? Because it really seems like people here are experts in Vietnam, and know a bit about Iraq. Afghanistan, and especially the Taliban, not so much. Haven’t seen Pakistan discussed, or Kashmir. If we’re going to call up old wars for comparison, doesn’t it make sense to talk about Kashmir and “cross-border terrorism”? Especially since it’s a lot of the same players. Anybody reading Gretchen Peters’ book? Did anybody read Carlotta Gall round about the time of the Taliban surge in 2006?
I’d really like to know.
Siun, et al. I am afraid that Obama is going to do some horsetrading to get a health plan through Congress with the Republican hawks. “You ramp up the war in Afghanistan, we’ll give you a few crumbs for your health care plan. Just a sickening feeling.” Anybody else getting that feeling? On Meet the Press, Boehner gave him guarded respect and Lindsay Graham ONLY over Afghanistan War and they played the “we have to send more troops in to save the troops who are there” song.