With all exceptions duly noted, I think it fair to say that what liberals mostly see when they look at this country is injustice and oppression of every kind economic, social and political. By sharp contrast, conservatives see a nation shaped by a complex of traditions, principles and institutions that has afforded more freedom and, even factoring in periodic economic downturns, more prosperity to more of its citizens than in any society in human history.
Conservative guys drive like this! Liberal guys drive like this!
Actually, I think it fair to say that what really distinguishes "liberals" and "conservatives" is that "conservatives" are obsessed with essentialist horseshit about what "liberals" and "conservatives" are Really All About. "Conservatives" are deep into tribalism because they get off on it and going "woo we’re great" is easier and more self-gratifying than trying to deal with actual, you know, facts. (We’re #15!)
That liberals could like America — we built it, after all — and still want to, you know, catch up to the rest of the developed world in, say, infant mortality rates is perhaps incomprehensible to Medved, but that’s probably because he likes it that so many American infants die even though our Medical Facilities Are Championship Class. I suppose that’s because Medved, like Conservatives generally, is all about killing babies.
Anyway, I kid Medved, but that’s only because I think he’s a shithead. To be fair, this really is why I’m a liberal:
The bitterness of the current health care debate demonstrates the power of this important insight. Liberals invariably plead that the United States must follow the example of Britain or France, Canada or Cuba, and expand the governmental role in medicine to guarantee health care as a sacred human right. The left insists that despite the high cost of American medical care we actually lag far behind more enlightened countries in health outcomes. Conservatives, on the other hand, while decrying the rise in costs, cite the many ways that the US system leads the world (in technological breakthroughs, as well as responsiveness where America is ranked number one by the World Health Organization of the UN). Conservatives want other countries to learn from us and follow our example; liberals long for the United States to learn from our European counterparts and to follow their example.
Because as far as health outcomes go, who the hell knows! Go jingoism! But that aside, we’re probably behind Canada overall, but they get it without wasting nearly as much money.
For Medved and wingnuts generally, getting a better product for less money is un-American. Why do they think this? I dunno. Because they are a Tribe of Douchebags, perhaps. Or maybe there are other reasons.



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Wednesthersday!
It just doesn’t have the same buzz.
Out-STAND-ing! Bully! Bully!
AguaTigre requested a swap. And who am I to say no?
It is a little easier for me right now tho because the kid has soccer practice Thurs.
Conservatives love America, but hate Americans (the actual living and sometimes dying people). Liberals love Americans even if we are often disappointed in them and our country.
Soccer shall not be deny nor curtailed.
Just got home and got on line and the first thing I see is that Mary Travers has died. My family had many of the records of Peter, Paul & Mary.
Fixed it for Mikey.
He also plays baseball, so he balances out the foreign tainted game with something native and good.
I don’t like anybody very much. (Except pups, and a few selected others.)
As a native Okie, I must approve of baseball (even though I personally am not much of a fan). Soccer is actually more fun to watch and, I think, play.
Nope. Douchebags
C
Spoiler alert: Jon Stewart invents the jackass carousel.
Shorter Medved: “It is better to fail through jingoism than to succeed through adaptability.”
Actually, I think that the fundamental difference is that progressives embrace and nurture the idea of the public good, while conservatives deny its very existence, insisting that there is only private good. Also they are greedy, selfish assholes.
Just because they don’t know shit is no reason to call them assholes. The reason to call them assholes is because they are.
conservatives see a nation shaped by a complex of traditions, principles and institutions
[I though conservatives hated multi-culturalism. Who knew?]
that has afforded more freedom
[especially if you don’t count the government spying on all of your communications without a warrant]
and, even factoring in periodic economic downturns,
[periodic: translation when Republicans fuck up the economy ]
more prosperity to more of its citizens than in any society in human history
[it helps too here if you are bad in math. If you are, this statement makes perfect sense.]
Shorter Orly Taitz: “I don’t know when to shut the fuck up.”
At this age it’s actually far less the sport and far more the coach. The kid’s been lucky so far and has had coaches who’ve made it all fun.
Of course since I’m his soccer coach, I may be biased…
Sad that Travers has passed on. I loved their album Peter, Paul, and Mommy the best.
Henry Gibson died today as well. I always remember him in Altman’s Nashville, playing a country music star that was all smiles and “aw, shucks” on the stage, only to be a bitter, angry man off stage.
The songs he contributed to the movie (some of which he wrote or co-wrote) were actually very good.
Ironically enough, I’m listening to the title track of The Cure’s Pornography, their most depressing album.
And what a fine coach to have!
I’d like to see some of the names of these principles and institutions that have, “afforded more freedom and…more prosperity to more of its citizens than in any society in human history.”
It’d be interesting to see where conservatives and liberals stood on their implementation.
What I like about soccer is that the game can be played rather unstructured or fairly highly structured and still be fun. Baseball and football, by contrast are inherently highly structured. Much wider range of potential for kids, and others, to enjoy themselves at a variety of skill and cognitive levels (my son played soccer when he was younger). Medved still would be unable to play and has never been known to enjoy himself except at the expense of others.
What Hugh said. The statement is true only if you are bad at math or know nothing about other societies and economies.
Tribe of Douchbags? Isn’t that an Xtian “Rock” band that loves Jesus, collects “End Times” novels, sells Amway and is supporting TortureDick for President in 2012?
Thers–thanks for using factual information to back up your argument. UK and Israel are 21 and 24 respectively, which might be interesting to analyze.
things are so crappy in the realm of content and communication that i now expect factual support across the boards.
cheers to all of the great thinkers like Galileo, Kepler, Vladimir Vernadsky and Alfred Wegener and all the rest who based their statements on verifiable factual evidence.
stating that conservatives are assholes contains no specific information to analyze. one can agree or disagree but since it’s so vague, it cannot be disputed with additional information.
from my perspective, conservatives come across as infantile and petty, inhuman.
“Responsiveness?” wtf is that — getting an ambulance to take you to the emergency room the quickest? So that you are on time, or even early, for the usual shitty outcomes?
Great.
Great post Thers…
I would argue however, that there is no relevant Conservative party anymore.
When the “Christian right” hijacked the party in the late 70’s and early 80’s, it became something altogether different. What we are witnessing now is the ugly guts of that morphed party as it implodes.
The majority of ignorant saps who stand beneath the banner of “Conservatism” don’t have any idea what the original principles of Conservatism were. Essentially, what the Right has now is an entirely new party of some sort who’s guiding principle is:
“The government’s role is to make sure I am able to take advantage of others and maintain a monopoly on what is ‘moral’and what is ‘moral’ is that which is most profitable to me”.
It’s why I left the party– I back liberal agendas as a protest of the corruption of the Republicans and why I intend to support whatever third party has even a snowballs chance of disrupting a two party system.
But that’s just me. Still, I don’t think I’m alone and the evidence is Obama receiving a majority:)
I can see that. Though there is a bit of a rough transition in soccer at about age 10-12, when some of the kids are starting to get the structure of the game, but others aren’t. Bringing along those that don’t quite get it is not so easy, since you want them to still have fun but accept they can’t either just run everywhere or else just stand around.
They have recently branched out and are now selling Bibles autographed by Jeebus. Oddly the signature is in English, and not like this: יֵוֹשֻׁשׁוּעַ
I dunno, I lost track of Christian Rock after Stryper…
You’re right — they’re douchebags.
Wonder what Michael’s cute younger brother Harry is up to these days.
Jesus spoke English!
Went and watched WATB Jonah Goldberg at UAA last night. He got his biggest laughs as he mimicked the caning of Sen. Charles Sumner on the US Senate floor in 1855.
He also said that what happened to Dan Rather – poor story vetting – would NEVER happen at FAUX news. But……
What assholes, eh?
“The government’s role is to make sure I am able to take advantage of others and maintain a monopoly on what is ‘moral’and what is ‘moral’ is that which is most profitable to me”.
That is and always has been conservatism’s central tenet. You are confusing the ability to dress it up in eloquent rationales with actual substance.
But only those from the British Isles and maybe, maybe, the northwestern part of Europe, but not France or southern or eastern Europe. Because those are all like brown people, even if they aren’t really brown. /s
Fair enough, though to be strictly accurate, the Irish did get the crap kicked out of them for quite a few centuries there.
Just don’t show them the LOL Cat Bible project. I discovered that here last night and nearly peed in my pants!
“You are confusing the ability to dress it up in eloquent rationales with actual substance.”
Expand?
American conservatives have only ever been enamored of Germanic traditions (which include the English). Latin or Celtic traditions need not apply.
They hate the Swedes, though.
William F. Buckley, often cited as a reasonable and principled conservative, essentially supported and said the same things as the teabaggers, but did so far more eloquently with his Ivy League vocabulary. Nonetheless he also said in the 1950s that white southerners had an obligation to maintain their traditions by “whatever means necessary.” John Kenneth Galbraith summed up conservatism quite succinctly when he said, “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.”
medved is a zionist jew. aka a neocon. and a fascist bastid.
he is the kind of sophist that almost makes you understand pogroms.
They only hate 20th century Scandinavians, they liked the 19th century versions just fine. That is for adopting socialism and actually producing the societies with the highest standard of living, some of the best vital statistics, the greatest social mobility, and the greatest equality in the world.
Friends, friends — No need to spend so many words on this! Really it’s extremely simple:
Any questions?
Also: They only breed with their own kind. So soon enough they’ll be a different species! Then the real fun starts.
Gosh, an entire evening with the Doughy Pantload! You are braver man than I!! Did they really beleive his BS?
Hope he got all his shots before hand.
I was with my dad at the time he suffered a stroke, rode in the ambulance, was with him every minute while NOTHING was done. After about 2 1/2 hours in the ER a neurologist finally wandered in and suggested giving him some Heparin. Two days after he died I had the TV on when a commercial ran for the same hospital touting their rapid response team saying, “When every second counts…”
America, best health care in the world… Not.
Regards
“The modern conservative”
That may be the crux.
If you reduce conservatism to its original lowest common denominator, it is a conservative or LIMITED or SMALL Government. Perhaps I am naive, but my hope is that humans are good enough that they can function with decency and charity without Government guidance. Trouble emerges when folks insist that Government represent only their ideals or faith or bigotry– and that is what we are seeing now through the death rattles of the teabaggers and deathers and birthers and even Wilson.
Welp, that’s democracy for ya — damn the Greeks to hell anyway. Elections, or at least so the rumor goes, have consequences.
But we can be tranquil, and thankful, and proud,
For mans’ been endowed with a mushroom-shaped cloud.
And we know for certain that some lovely day
Someone will set the spark off, and we will all be blown away.
“The modern conservative”
IIRC that was written in the late 1940s or early 1950s.
I have a moustache, but I’m not an asshole
It is after all exactly what politics generally, and democracy in particular, are actually all about.
Ditto, but I also have earrings.
Especially when your brother is the Governor of a swing state. :)
John Dean is very good at delineating exactly how these current jokewads are different from traditional conservatives, in his book (wait for it) Conservatives Without Conscience. Required reading IMHO.
((ratfood))
Time for me to toddle off. Gots tender young minds to corrupt in the morning. Take care all. Don’t take any wooden conservatives (as if there was any other kind).
Richard Nixon?
AN douche? Really? C’mon Thers, shouldn’t alienate the worlds unemployed proofreaders in the very first sentence.
My very conservative R grandpa (gawd rest) would have been deeply ashamed to be associated with these current jokewads.
In the event that Suzanne is not here…
G’nite Dr… Dick
;~P
Thanks.
You’ve unmasked me, sir!!!
notreally.
Actually he talks about Goldwater as the standard bearer of trad conservatism.
G’nite.
I should power down too. Been keeping Bob up too late, have to try to do better. Splendid evenings to all.
For whatever it is worth, any Conservative I have known well would be ashamed and/or is ashamed.
I canna stay up neither. Niters!
Nite Drd thanks for the food for thought and the reading list.
Wuss!
Moron, thy name is Medved.
“We’re very sorry Mr. Smith, but due to your lack of insurance, we simply couldn’t give your wife the life saving drugs that she desperately needed. But did you see how cool the medical gadgets were that we wheeled by your wife’s corpse?”
Who the hell cares if we lead anybody technologically if we lag behind in life expectancy and infant mortality? THOSE are the most important metrics by which to judge our healthcare system. Also, we are the only developed Western nation that does not provide universal care, that allows denial of coverage due to pre-existing conditions, allows denial of care after making a claim, and allows for medical bankruptcy.
These things make our system best, how? How is protecting the rapacious insurance lobby benefitting anyone who is not a shareholder? Don’t these fucking wingnut morons realize that their healthcare will cost less and the quality will improve if we fix this thing?
They dragged paperback copies of Liberal Fascism in the door behind them.
“Don’t these fucking wingnut morons realize that their healthcare will cost less and the quality will improve if we fix this thing?”
NO
They don’t see that. Its why they are fighting against their own interests. They are very, very, very confused at the moment.
I’m with ya Gasman!
Do you really want MORONS? Try this: Tea Party Protesters Protest D.C. Metro Service
With millions being spent by Insurance executives to set up fake grass roots and bombard the yahoos with emotional fodder ala Limbaugh and Beck and Fox, why wouldn’t they be confused.
there are no conservatives. there are no libreals. no progressives. there are reactionaries[demtillians] and there are fascist bastids[reptillians]. and then there are the gapers[the progressives, the liberals].
that is the political landscape in this newfangled ussr.
few who identify themselves as liberals[sic], progressives[sic] want to admit to this landscape. i don’t know why that is.
perhaps it is repressed memory of the spanish civil war. the recognition that the only opponents of totalitarianism were branded as “commies”.
and we should not forget, the usa liked franco very much. in fact, there has been no administration that has ever renounced, repudiated a fascist regime.
in a very real sense, not even fdr. you can look that up.
She is such a Closet Case. Not even Old Queens have ’stashes any more.
Used those to wipe up his shit did they?
Did you yell out – You Lie! to him?
I just got here. Whou is a Closet Case?
So does one laugh or cry?
Oh and yeah. Anybody see my Mary around? She and Ron were front posted at Huffington.
Gotta give her a hug.
a complex of traditions? so he’s admitting that they have the social development level of medieval tribalists. Wonderful. Medieval tribalists with guns and a plan. Now where have we seen that before? Oh. Afghanistan and Pakistan. At least rethug wingnuts are in good company.
duh, Miss Medved.
Oh. I thought a person’s orientation was their own business. Duh.
I just have the hardest time being PC sometimes.
Um, no. Not even almost.
Hi Margot. I dealt with some assholes today. Did you?
pc or mac?
There you are, baby! Woo hoo. We haz a celebrity in da house.
Thank you. Thank you very much! (Elvis impression)
Oy, yes. Talked to school board man who didn’t allow Obama’s speech to be shown.
I thought the photo of you two looking kind of miserable was interesting. Fit the story, I guess. The shot of you guys and the girls at the graduation, looking all handsome and hot prolly wouldn’t have worked for the story. Si?
Also, interesting that Ron’s take was the oh, gushy romantic take and you were the pragmagtic one. Veddy interesting.
Where can I get the health care outcomes of the USA and Canada. Had a nasty discussion today with a repug and I want to print out some actual facts for the dude. I went to the CDC and WHO but couldn’t find anything that was filtered down enough for the fucker. (Excuse my French. Wait, don’t the French have universal health care that works? Then don’t excuse my French.)
How do you talk to someone like that?
Ron photoshopped ten pounds off of both of us.
Like an authoritarian.
“filtered down enough”…
You have to just make stuff up that works on an emotional level.
A+ + + + sshole. Poor yousky. How did you handle that? You asked him questions and he said what?
marymccurnin
was nice to see you in HuffPo!
But so sorry for the circumstances. Thanks for putting a public face on the problem. I hope you changed a mind or tow today.
No, he wants facts. Him said so.
Tell him that he must have faith. :)
Liberals believe in the golden rule, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Republicans be in the gold rule, “I want mine, sc**w you.”
Thanks. I felt nervous all day. It was completely different from being on the teevee machine. That was only 30 seconds of fame and fortune. This was all day long and over 800 comments. Most of the comments were fine but there were a few really strange ones. One idiot type said that the only reason Ron wanted a divorce is because he was messing around.
Well, I call him on the phone and get him to talking, and he knows some in-law of mine through his mother, and he breaks down and says for every one of me who called there were 20 of the screamers saying “don’t you dare show that speech!”
Too much ugliness, too little support.
Do you have a linky to your HuffPo story?
Jimma Carter was right.
I was so proud of you. And that was a terrific photo. ;)
Boy howdy, was he.
Huffpo
Cage match…
Jimmy Carter VS. Joe Wilson.
Sunday, Sunday, Sunday.
Sounds like some projecting on that guys part.
(you know, I meant the shot was perfect for that story.)
yeah yeah yeah, point and jeer, thems is so stupid.
how about reading what Ian Welsh has to say?
thats a little tougher, eh? Obama followers who find excuses for the same policies they deplored under the last administration are not exactly the towering moral and intellectual paragons they fancy themselves to be.
Oh, right. That comment. For some reason, I got stuck on the idiot type comment about messing around. And, was thinking about what Jimma said about lusting in his heart. Sheesh. Where’s my mind tonight?
Ian pretty much covered all of the bases.
I miss Ian being here. Guy’s got the smarts and the class.
sporko!!! Get any radio personalities fired lately?
mary & demi – did Ian say he’s not coming back? or is he focussing on his own site? I may have missed it, if something happened.
wordbloom, nope, no radio hosts fired, I make crop circles for a living.
LOL
dunno. just not here now.
a parable. There was once a decathlete that was approached by a Republican who began asking Medvedian guestions. He said to the athlete “It seems you hate yourself.” The athlete, was a bit taken aback. “Where do you get that idea?” The Republican said “Look at how you are constantly trying to improve your performances. You win a competition but you still pick apart your form, complain about not reaching your personal best, gripe about missing training, not eating better, and so on. mericans are not supposed to suggest they aren’t the best, that they aren’t perfect. “
The athlete said “I’m a Democrat. I was once an average guy, and had to put every ounce of my energy and mind into becoming more than that. By analyzing my past mistakes I’ve improved to be a world-class decathlete, you can’t cut corners.”
“Sure you can. You simply ignore the rules, cheat a little bit to get that extra edge. Ignore the past, because it gives your opponents an edge in argument..maybe allows them to make accusations. Just use some enhancement drugs and drive the enemy into the ground. That’s what Republican’s would do.”
the real conclusion to this parable…….
let us join together to steal all that we can.
Back in high school Michael Medved was a myopic, douchbag, brownnoser. He still is. I’m not surprised.
I would go wtih the wingnut fantasy fugue state: get lost in daydreams about being a world class athelete, snap out of it and get angry at random targets because I was not a world class athelete. And basically stagger along under that dubious regime until I went mad.
JESUS what horrible year, ted kennedy, les paul and mary travers are gone (but beloved and never forgotten), while medved limbaugh and that rednecked twat that did the song about “mother liberty shakin her fist” are still going strong.its almost too much to bear.
Hmmm, I wonder if someday a Corporation might run for public office?
Well, it follows that if the right-wing corporation-friendly U.S. Supreme Court rules that a corporation is a person, then it seems likely that one day a corporation, instead of doling out millions to buy politicians, will run as a “person” for political office.
In fact, the President of the United States of America might someday be Microsoft, or GE, or AIG, or some other corporation “person,” with their “birth certificate” being the date of their incorporation in the United States.
This “person” would “self”-finance their “campaign,” essentially bypassing any need to stuff the pockets of a real person’s political campaign war chest.
HA!!, you might laugh, but this is the logical extension of the Supreme Court ruling in favor of corporate “personhood.” A “person” “born” in America, of a certain age and after meeting certain requirements (like being judged a “person”) can run for political office. So someday, there just might be a President Goldman Sachs. Hail to the Chief!!!
It is absurd to speak in sweeping generalizations about any group. That is what is wrong with any type of ‘identity politics.’
We are first and foremost a nation of individuals. Free individuals who choose to either look to themselves and first, or to the government first, in looking for solutions to problems.
The government is useful in many ways and necessary but it can also be too burdensome, bloated and corrupt to efficiently perform and . Many individuals realize this and seek to limit the amount of money and control that has led to the concentration of power in the central government in Washington, D.C.
Why ‘progressives’ support ’single payer’ is beyond me. Citing Medicare as a ’successful’ program is absurd when you consider that it has been operating in the red, subsidized to an ever growing level by taxpayer dollars. For Medicare to remain viable, future generations will have to pay higher and higher taxes. Citing the ’success’ of other single-payer programs without mentioning the high tax burden places on individuals that support the system does not give us the whole story.
Americans need to have MORE, not less control over healthcare decisions and healthcare dollars in order to connect the consumer more directly with the cost of their care and the consequences of their decisions.
No matter what ‘progressives’ wish to believe about their fellow man, human nature has proved that self-interest and self-preservation motivate the human race and the power of the free, self-determining individual to adapt and create, TO CHOOSE, will more often PRODUCE OUTCOMES, PRODUCTS and SERVICES that will benefit all. Will they always succeed? No. But I will assert that they do so with greater success than any centralized government.
That is why the number of opponents to the Democrats plans are growing. What has been promised by the President is a fantasy and what is in the House Bill spells disaster of our economy.
Baucus’ bill saves money, but oops, it raises taxes on the middle class in order to subsidize those without insurance who cannot afford to pay.
That is a hard sell to the coal miner who works hard, has great health insurance benefits. Coal miners, steel workers and others who have hazardous occupations will NOT want to see their taxes raised ONE DIME.
Would the individual prefer to pay higher premiums or higher taxes? Which choice will give them the best access to the care and treatment?
Who does that individual trust more, the private sector, or the federal government?
Why would a ‘progressive’ individual, one who so adamantly demands that abortion and gay rights opponents ‘keep their hands off MY body’ and ’stay out of the bedroom’ support a plan for health care that will ultimately be forced, because of COSTS, to limit care and treatments OR raise our taxes, OR BOTH, thereby LIMITING THE INDIVIDUAL ECONOMIC FREEDOM that is at the core of our Declaration of Independence and Constitution?
Now many will refute that “The insurance companies raise premiums and a ration care now.” With this I cannot disagree. But is taking the control we have ceded to our employer and handing it over to the federal government truly something that most individuals support? NO.
President Obama wants to keep the system of employer based insurance while slowly moving us to single payer. Any other choice would be too ‘disruptive.’ Disruptive for whom? What is the risk to the individual if they were to be given sole authority over the dollars they would spend on their care?
Frankly, it is a risk I would be willing to take.
I do not know why they aren’t setting up two weeks of national TN and C Span reviews on everyone who has had their Insurance cut cancelled or denied. I do believe even the most Ignorant Brain Dead Right Wing Wacko of the Racist Nazi Christian (RNC) or the Goofy Opposition Party (GOP)could and would deny, this would also put the nail into the coffins of Racist White Supremacist White Trailer Trash Closet Queen hannity, dobbs, KKK Drug Addict leader blimpbaugh.
It has been reported that American TRAITOR cheney is back in the HOSPITAL using SOCIALIZED medicine for his spine (are they putting one in) This is news I didn’t think Right wingers were capable of a spine.
[Edited by Moderator: Wishing any violence to anyone is strictly prohibited on this site!]
Conservatives (or Tories as they used to be called) ARE essentially different from Liberals–they are essentially anti-American.
Conservatism as a movement and modern American Conservatives in particular believe that property–the wealth and social privilege that one inherits from one’s relatives (and ultimately from God)–is the only legitimate qualification for political power. Witness the current Supreme Cort case that seeks to guarantee the “personhood” and political rights of property that has been incorporated. Conservatives of the current stripe didn’t just lose the last two elections. They lost the Revolution and fled to Canada. (Ironic, eh?)
We need to remember that America is a Liberal nation, founded not on the theocratic absolutism of the Mayflower Colony or the aristocratic slave economy of Virginia, but on the principles of individual rights and freedoms that made Liberalism a force in later history. With the exception of Denmark, every European monarchy, including our ally, France, banned publication of our Declaration of Independence because it threatened every Conservative principle. The French friends and supporters of our Revolution were later instrumental in starting the French Revolution, and our example inspired liberal reforms in England.
Bottom line? You can’t be a Conservative and love America. Love it or leave it, I say. (Canada still has a Queen as head of state, don’t they?)
So Medved is actually arguing that the conservative position is superior to the liberal one because the liberal finds what isn’t good enough and seeks to improve it, while the conservative stands around with his thumb up his ass, going “What do you MEAN it isn’t good enough!?! Look at this one particular statistic — *that’s* pretty good! What are you, a SOCIALIST?!?”
Medved doesn’t even seem to realize that his whole argument is based upon framing and assumptions — that you have to do what conservatives *always* do, which is to denigrate liberal efforts via the assumption of negative motivations. In other words, first you assume that the liberal is motivated by Bad Things, then you’re free to crap on their efforts as misguided and doomed to failure from the very beginning!
It’s why you have so many right-wing authoritarian idiots saying things like “Now you liberals can stop pretending to care about poor people.” Their worldview depends on assuming that everybody else is as big an asshole as they are.
(P.S. Republicans *are* assholes. Push the Van Jones Window!)
Your whole argument seems to be a long list of hypothetical ways in which the government MIGHT get it wrong, without listing any of the ways the current system doesn’t work, leading to this brush-by:
“Now many will refute that “The insurance companies raise premiums and a ration care now.” With this I cannot disagree. But is taking the control we have ceded to our employer and handing it over to the federal government truly something that most individuals support? NO.”
That’s called “begging the question”. Would you want a million dollars IF you had to cut off your legs? Obviously not. Why do you assume that we’d be taking the control we have and “handing it over to the federal government”? And how do you know that people are clear just how much control the insurance companies have (funny how you almost never refer to the insurance companies in your comment at all — almost as if you wish to frame the debate as “me & my doctor” vs “me, my doctor and the government”, as if private corporations weren’t in between you and the doc already), and whether it would serve them to move that control to the government?
What if the framing you used for your poll was “Do you want a greedy corporate shark thinking of you as a source of profit, especially if you don’t pay your claims, or do you want your healthcare to be a boring, bureaucratic manner handled the same way ordering a replacement social security card might be, by people who don’t get a big, fat bonus by dumping the sickest policy-holders?” I bet you’d get some interesting results.
Here’s MY framing on it: healthcare costs money. Insurance companies skim money off the top and contribute nothing while dumping people into emergency care after bankrupting them. If Medicaid and Medicaire and SS have problems, it’s because of greed and corruption on the part of private companies gaming the system.
When you privatize prisons, you incentivize high prison populations. When you privatize healthcaare, you incentivize collecting dues and NOT paying out on claims.
Why do you right-wingers insist on presenting a pie-in-the-sky, they’re-only-here-to-help fantasy of corporations and contrasting it with a worst-case “IT CAN’T WORK” cartoon of government?
“It is absurd to speak in sweeping generalizations about any group. That is what is wrong with any type of ‘identity politics.’… INDIVIDUAL ECONOMIC FREEDOM that is at the core of our Declaration of Independence and Constitution?”
Your statement about the Declaration and Constitution undercuts your premise and confirms mine.
By calling himself a “Conservative,” a Conservative identifies himself with the history behind that term and with the aristocratic currents that run throught that history. Words actually mean something, and adopting a name for ourselves reflects and, at the same time, influences our thinking.
The idea that the Declaration and Constitution are somehow fundamentally about economic rights is a case in point. In fact, I don’t recall economics being a core value in either of our founding documents, even though Conservatives always assume that they must be. In fact, I seem to recall that the phrase “life, liberty, and property” was specifically rejected for the Declaration because of its conservatism, its suggestion that property granted political powers that those without property–and those that WERE property (slaves)–lacked.
To a real American, property gives you no special political rights or qualifications. We are all created equal and are equal in the eyes of the law. America is Liberal.
What are the top seven major issues historically which our country has grappled with?
A possible list could include slavery, secession, Jim Crow, voter’s rights, women’s rights, child labor, and workplace safety. You could make a slightly longer list if you wanted, but it’s hard to deny the importance of these issues in terms of how they effected our democracy.
On each of the above issues, it was the liberal solution that proved to be the most just and fair and ultimately, the path our nation chose. In each and every case above, the conservative position was the wrong position and the position that was rejected by Americans. Often, as with slavery, the liberal solution was initially mocked, derided, and denigrated. Sounds familiar to today, doesn’t it? Prior to the Civil War, to be called an “abolitionist” was the ultimate ad hominem attack. Today, no decent person would publicly admit to anything other than the abolitionist position. However, eventually this country came to realize what the liberals had been saying since the founding of this country, that slavery was and is wrong. The conservative position was that of the slaveholder, that slavery was right and that slaves were not people, but property.
Similarly, in each of the above issues, the liberals have been on the right side of history and the conservatives on the wrong side. I cannot think of any major issue which defines us as a people on which the conservatives have not been consistently wrong. Why should we believe that now, after an unbroken history of 233 years of being wrong on every single major issue that has confronted our country, the conservatives are somehow now right?
I know that assessment will anger conservatives, but they are free to point out major issues on which the conservatives have been right and provided a solution which favored democracy. I’ll not hold my breath waiting.
This nation was founded upon liberal principles and when push comes to shove, we consistently fall back on our liberal heritage to solve our greatest problems. The conservatives are just pissed that have been proven wrong again.
The main reason, of course, is because a black man is President. That, and talking about other nations in any kind of favorable light is Un-Amurhican!