Comments on: The Open Door: The Character of Our Country http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/ Firedoglake weblog Fri, 17 Feb 2012 20:44:15 -0600 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: AngelsAwake http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/#comment-1977506 AngelsAwake Mon, 14 Sep 2009 05:27:17 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/#comment-1977506 <p>I think it actually takes as much courage to hold a position of moral absoluteness as it does to hold up to uncertainty. Both are terrifying propositions. One has no answers and the other one might hold the <em>wrong</em> answers. Utterly terrifying thoughts. It’s irrelevant which one is “braver”- it’s not a courage contest in here. I can see the benefits of a position of moral uncertainty, it’s just that I prefer moral absolutism.</p> <p>The main reason I accept the proposition of moral absolution is the fact that I see it played out everyday. There is no situation that, looked at enough, analyzed enough, cannot be reduced down to its truths, and acted upon from there. Most situations are very clear-cut, very dry- it just takes a great deal of knowledge to gather up to that point. Moral absolutism, done correctly, is very slow, but very powerful.</p> <p>In short? I see that the real world can be handled by moral absolutism. The facts are out there. It’s just a matter of finding them and acting on them.</p> <p>True, being humble doesn’t affect one’s willingness to fight for one’s moral views, though there are a great deal of people who use humility as a shield to <em>not</em> fight for them, a separate but notable affair.</p> <p>I highly doubt neither MLK nor Gandhi ever <em>didn’t</em> believe in their own moral righteousness. One can be humble and righteous at the same time, and know it. When Gandhi was being attacked for doing nothing, as MLK was attacked for doing nothing, I’m pretty certain they knew that they were better than the men attacking them. It’s a simple, observable fact.</p> I think it actually takes as much courage to hold a position of moral absoluteness as it does to hold up to uncertainty. Both are terrifying propositions. One has no answers and the other one might hold the wrong answers. Utterly terrifying thoughts. It’s irrelevant which one is “braver”- it’s not a courage contest in here. I can see the benefits of a position of moral uncertainty, it’s just that I prefer moral absolutism.

The main reason I accept the proposition of moral absolution is the fact that I see it played out everyday. There is no situation that, looked at enough, analyzed enough, cannot be reduced down to its truths, and acted upon from there. Most situations are very clear-cut, very dry- it just takes a great deal of knowledge to gather up to that point. Moral absolutism, done correctly, is very slow, but very powerful.

In short? I see that the real world can be handled by moral absolutism. The facts are out there. It’s just a matter of finding them and acting on them.

True, being humble doesn’t affect one’s willingness to fight for one’s moral views, though there are a great deal of people who use humility as a shield to not fight for them, a separate but notable affair.

I highly doubt neither MLK nor Gandhi ever didn’t believe in their own moral righteousness. One can be humble and righteous at the same time, and know it. When Gandhi was being attacked for doing nothing, as MLK was attacked for doing nothing, I’m pretty certain they knew that they were better than the men attacking them. It’s a simple, observable fact.

]]> By: Glenn W. Smith http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/#comment-1977355 Glenn W. Smith Mon, 14 Sep 2009 02:09:38 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/#comment-1977355 <p>There’s no contradiction here, really. I suggest we don’t need guidance of a moral absolute to end torture. It takes more courage to live with Keats’ “negative capability,” the ability to live with uncertainty, than it does to choose a moral platform and remain there. But, I agree with you that there’s a difference between morality and moral rigidity. It’s a terrible mistake to be wishy-washy, as you say, because the universe appears to have denied us a perspective that would settle all moral questions finally.</p> <p>Being humble about one’s moral views doesn’t mean you don’t stand up for them. It doesn’t mean you consider all views more or less viable, since some kill and some stop killing, for instance.</p> <p>Yes, I believe there are moral rights and moral wrongs. But I also a great moral wrong is to believe in my own righteousness. Neither Gandhi nor MLK made that mistake, and both were able to champion their moral views.</p> There’s no contradiction here, really. I suggest we don’t need guidance of a moral absolute to end torture. It takes more courage to live with Keats’ “negative capability,” the ability to live with uncertainty, than it does to choose a moral platform and remain there. But, I agree with you that there’s a difference between morality and moral rigidity. It’s a terrible mistake to be wishy-washy, as you say, because the universe appears to have denied us a perspective that would settle all moral questions finally.

Being humble about one’s moral views doesn’t mean you don’t stand up for them. It doesn’t mean you consider all views more or less viable, since some kill and some stop killing, for instance.

Yes, I believe there are moral rights and moral wrongs. But I also a great moral wrong is to believe in my own righteousness. Neither Gandhi nor MLK made that mistake, and both were able to champion their moral views.

]]> By: AngelsAwake http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/#comment-1977301 AngelsAwake Mon, 14 Sep 2009 00:21:47 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/#comment-1977301 <p>I believe most of the skepticism and distaste for “one answer” thinking comes not from one answer thinking itself, but rather its traditional association with hardliners of all shapes and sizes- not just moral bigots and racists, but firm, “punish the bastards” crime enforcement policies and the blind cruelties such a view takes.</p> <p>What people forget is that you can have a “one answer” system that gives a one answer in <em>defiance</em> of all this, a moral system I believe we badly need in this country. Half the problem with the progressive moment, I believe, particularly with its older followers, is that there’s a wishy-washy nature to it. I reject that. There is a moral right and a moral wrong. God didn’t put us here to torture the shit out of our fellow man, and he <em>did</em> put us here to stop it.</p> <p>I think this kind of moral outrage- and really, what’s the fun of being a progressive if it’s not that you can be morally outraged?- would really boost progressive standing in this country. People can inherently sense that there are rights and wrongs in the world. They respond to it.</p> I believe most of the skepticism and distaste for “one answer” thinking comes not from one answer thinking itself, but rather its traditional association with hardliners of all shapes and sizes- not just moral bigots and racists, but firm, “punish the bastards” crime enforcement policies and the blind cruelties such a view takes.

What people forget is that you can have a “one answer” system that gives a one answer in defiance of all this, a moral system I believe we badly need in this country. Half the problem with the progressive moment, I believe, particularly with its older followers, is that there’s a wishy-washy nature to it. I reject that. There is a moral right and a moral wrong. God didn’t put us here to torture the shit out of our fellow man, and he did put us here to stop it.

I think this kind of moral outrage- and really, what’s the fun of being a progressive if it’s not that you can be morally outraged?- would really boost progressive standing in this country. People can inherently sense that there are rights and wrongs in the world. They respond to it.

]]> By: Glenn W. Smith http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/#comment-1977209 Glenn W. Smith Sun, 13 Sep 2009 20:40:39 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/#comment-1977209 <p>Well, Foucalt agrees with you, sort of. I myself am very skeptical about “one answer” thinking. It may be, but from within a human universe it’ll be hard to get an above-it-all perspective from which we can make an absolute judgment.</p> <p>But, I do agree with you about the ideal of individuals facing one another in equality.</p> Well, Foucalt agrees with you, sort of. I myself am very skeptical about “one answer” thinking. It may be, but from within a human universe it’ll be hard to get an above-it-all perspective from which we can make an absolute judgment.

But, I do agree with you about the ideal of individuals facing one another in equality.

]]> By: Gitcheegumee http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/#comment-1977207 Gitcheegumee Sun, 13 Sep 2009 20:30:04 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/#comment-1977207 <p>Ahem, apparently Joe “You Lie” Wilson understands the POWER of one voice.</p> Ahem, apparently Joe “You Lie” Wilson understands the POWER of one voice.

]]> By: AngelsAwake http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/#comment-1977205 AngelsAwake Sun, 13 Sep 2009 20:21:46 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/#comment-1977205 <p>Or ever paid attention to the lives of, well, anybody in history. It’s individuals who start things. Religions flow from a single person’s teachings, nations begin because one person wanted it to be there, etc. A single person can change the world, it’s just that most of us- to go back to my point- are not powerful enough to do so, hence the ” I’m just one person!” myth.</p> Or ever paid attention to the lives of, well, anybody in history. It’s individuals who start things. Religions flow from a single person’s teachings, nations begin because one person wanted it to be there, etc. A single person can change the world, it’s just that most of us- to go back to my point- are not powerful enough to do so, hence the ” I’m just one person!” myth.

]]> By: AngelsAwake http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/#comment-1977201 AngelsAwake Sun, 13 Sep 2009 20:12:47 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/#comment-1977201 <p>There is no individual choice, no freedom, except power. Power opens up the way and the doors, nothing else does. That’s what “justice” really is, leveling the power playing field so that the poor can go toe-to-toe with the rich.</p> <p>I am in eternal doubt whenever somebody says that some factor of life is always in tension. I doubt that. Usually, there really is only one answer to a question. There is an end result. Saying there is tension just means that people have yet to face up to reality- the reality of power.</p> <p>We must level the playing field. Only when all can be powerful- can face each other as equals- will everyone be free.</p> <p>That’s freedom.</p> There is no individual choice, no freedom, except power. Power opens up the way and the doors, nothing else does. That’s what “justice” really is, leveling the power playing field so that the poor can go toe-to-toe with the rich.

I am in eternal doubt whenever somebody says that some factor of life is always in tension. I doubt that. Usually, there really is only one answer to a question. There is an end result. Saying there is tension just means that people have yet to face up to reality- the reality of power.

We must level the playing field. Only when all can be powerful- can face each other as equals- will everyone be free.

That’s freedom.

]]> By: Gitcheegumee http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/#comment-1977200 Gitcheegumee Sun, 13 Sep 2009 20:12:24 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/#comment-1977200 <p>Whoever believes that one person CANNOT make a difference has never spent the night alone,in a tent, with a mosquito….*G*</p> Whoever believes that one person CANNOT make a difference has never spent the night alone,in a tent, with a mosquito….*G*

]]> By: Glenn W. Smith http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/#comment-1977129 Glenn W. Smith Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:14:18 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/#comment-1977129 <p>Myths are tenacious things. I have my own. But it sure would be grand if the destructive ones would dissolve.</p> Myths are tenacious things. I have my own. But it sure would be grand if the destructive ones would dissolve.

]]> By: KayInMaine http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/#comment-1977128 KayInMaine Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:13:33 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/13/the-open-door-the-character-of-our-country/#comment-1977128 <p>Hi peeps! Sorry. I was just working on my protest signs. Here they are if you’re interested:</p> <p><a href="http://whitenoiseinsanity.com/2009/09/13/ireland-understands-gay-marriage/" rel="nofollow">http://whitenoiseinsanity.com/.....-marriage/</a></p> <p>I’m leaving now! Gonna go shout down the Haters! LOL :-)</p> Hi peeps! Sorry. I was just working on my protest signs. Here they are if you’re interested:

http://whitenoiseinsanity.com/…..-marriage/

I’m leaving now! Gonna go shout down the Haters! LOL :-)

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