[Welcome Dahr Jamail, and Host Gareth Porter - bev]
Introducing The Will to Resist by Dahr Jamail
Gareth Porter*
Ever since he first went to Iraq to cover the U.S. occupation of that country in 2003, Dahr Jamail has distinguished himself as a journalist of rare courage and honesty, who understands that a conscious commitment to humane values is a necessary tool for the reporting the truth and not an obstacle to it. He continued to cover the Middle East since his initial stint as an independent unimbedded journalist, writing for Inter Press Service, Le Monde Dipomatique and Asia Times, among other publications. Dahr was the recipient of the 2008 Martha Gellhorn Award for Journalism.
Dahr has offered journalists a model for how to cover an illicit and brutal war of occupation that contravenes the accepted norms of American journalism, under which the journalist is expected to be part of the U.S. military team. Rejecting that role, he consciously sought to cover the war from the point of view of those who were its victims, the Iraqis. His experience in witnessing the crimes of the U.S. military in Iraq, as he observes in his own introduction to his new book, the “The Will to Resist”, fueled his rage against the U.S. military.
Dahr Jamal’s Iraq experience gives his path-breaking new book on resistance by military personnel to wars of occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan a sharpness and political clarity that would have been absent from a more conventional journalistic treatment of the subject. Arguably, his treatment of military resistance is more penetrating precisely because of his own experiences in Iraq.
Dahr has put the phenomenon of military resistance in the present era in a broader historical perspective, trying to ascertain how it differs from and is similar to the movement of GI resistance to the Vietnam War. He does not try sugar coat the situation of resisters in the military, which is admittedly difficult. He underlines a series of social and political differences between the military and the GI movement of the Vietnam and their present-day counterparts: the transformation of the army into an all-volunteer organization; the fact that most troops are older and have a wife and children to support; the clever shift in emphasis by the military brass to unit loyalty and solidarity; the much more repressive military discipline, and the absence of a mass popular anti-war movement pressuring the government for withdrawal – all these factors, Dahr suggests, have made it more difficult, on balance, to organize large-scale resistance to the war among troops on the battlefield or back home in the barracks.
This overall context for the contemporary military resistance movement, which accurately characterizes a country that has moved further to the right and is in many ways less responsive, to the appeals of anti-war activists than was the case during at least the height of anti-war sentiment during the Vietnam era, gives even greater poignancy to his portrayal of the individuals who have shown the conscience and courage to defy the military and say no to aggressive war. They are bucking a pro-military tide that is arguably more powerful than it was in previous decades.
Dahr’s account of resistance in Iraq suggests that the heart of military resistance in recent years has been the refusal to go on patrols that seem almost certain to result in unnecessary casualties. That phenomenon is surely related to one of the primary new features of the wars of occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan – the central importance of Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs) and related ambushes as a means of imposing costs on the United States and other NATO forces.
The ramifications of that new military tool against foreign occupation for both military resistance and for broader understanding of the irrational nature of the wars themselves are far reaching. The dependence of the U.S. military on traveling the main roads and the degree to which it makes U.S. troops vulnerable are symbolic of the reality that U.S. troops are ultimately both irrelevant and powerless. The “search and avoid” missions which are described to Dahr by Iraq war veterans show that more and more troops instinctively understand the pointlessness of the strategies and tactics they have been ordered to carry out.
Dahr also underlines another factor that mitigates somewhat the intensity of military pressures on dissenters within the ranks: the desperate need of the army for warm bodies to maintain its manpower levels. That manpower crisis appears to have restrained the military leadership from harshly punishing desertion, which he points out, reached its highest rate (nearly 4,700) in 27 years in 2007.
Soldiers bear the burden of modern American war not primarily by dying but by having their lives permanently blighted. The level of combat deaths is much lower than it was in Vietnam only because thousands of troops’ lives are saved through new medical procedures. But that means that there are many times more veterans with injuries that severely handicap them. Dahr reports the astounding ratio of 8 wounded to every one killed, compared with 3 to one during the Vietnam War. Even more stunning is the figure of 300,000 troops reporting symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder or major depression – most of which have not sought any treatment.
It is no exaggeration to say that the wars Iraq and Afghanistan are creating an enormous community of American victims of war whose scars will never be fully healed. One of the questions Dahr’s book poses for this writer is what can and should be done to integrate the war wounded into a broader veterans movement against present and future wars.
*Investigative journalist and historian writing on U.S. foreign and military policy for Inter Press Service; author of Perils of Dominance: Imbalance of Power and the Road to War in Vietnam (University of California Press, 2006)



158 Comments





Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Dahr, Welcome back to the Lake.
Gareth, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Hi Bev, I’m here.
Hi Bev and Gareth!
Garreth, thank you for the intro-I’m honored by it.
It’s a great pleasure to host this book discussion with a pathbreaking journalist and a colleague at Inter Press Service, Dahr Jamail, on his new book, “The Will to Resist”.
Welcome to Firedoglake – glad you could join us today!
It’s my pleasure to be here on FireDogLake with you Gareth.
It’s a very timely book–the first of its kind in describing and analyzing the resistance to wars of occupation Iraq and Afghanistan within the military itself. And it comes just as the progressive movement is beginning to gear up for a renewal of protest activities against the Afghanistan war.
I’ve tried to skethc out a few of the major themese that seemed particularly relevant to this discussion. While many participants in the discussion are reading that introduction, let me get things started with a first question.
I think it’s critical for people to remember that this country has a rich history of GI resistance, and we are treading on ground very fertile for this to happen again.
Dahr, you’ve reported in your interviews with those who have said no to war in Iraq both those who were moved by conscience over the brutalities and killing of Iraqis and those who were motivated by self-interested rejection of orders to carry out operations that they felt were pointless. How would you assess the relative importance of these two strands of the resistance within the military?
Dahr, how long have you been back from the “front”?
Gareth-both strands are of critical importance. On the one hand, we have true leaders in the GI resistance-people like Lt. Ehren Watada and Victor Agosto and Camilo Mejia who have taken moral, principled, legal stands, and effectively articulated them as a model for other soldiers to do the same. Then, on the other hand, we have a broad swath of the military who are actively resisting, albeit more covertly by not running missions, or not carrying out orders that would jeopardize their lives or lives of civilians in the countries they are occupying. Both of these, really, illustrate the basic structure of a resistance movement.
Bev-I was in Iraq most recently this February.
Dahr, do we still have you online?
What a pleasure to have two of my favorite writers and truthspeakers here at FDL – Welcome.
Dahr, to what degree do the soldiers themselves discuss resistance such as patrol refusals? is this something that’s part of the inside chatter or is it hushed up and secretive? (thinking of how things like fragging during Vietnam remained so sub rosa)
Another question that your book posed for me is whether progressives should view the military resistance movement as the cutting edge of the anti-militarism movement in the country or as really dependent on the building of a broder movement against militarism in order to be effective.
I think you addressed that briefly in the book, but I’d be interested in your thoughts on it.
It’s not broadcast by soldiers-for obvious reasons, particularly among those deployed and in the field, they remain largely covert so as not to get caught.
That said, it is rampant. Whether it is “search and avoid” missions, or platoons not suiting up in time to go out on a mission, or folks faking being sick….and everything in between…daily there are ongoing acts of resistance, but by their very nature-we’ll never hear about most of them. Unless we ask and dig a bit-which is what I’m doing now. And now that I’m doing it, it’s amazing how much resistance there is. It simply lacks overall organization and leadership like we had during Vietnam.
As a technical note, there is a “Reply” button in the lower right hand of each comment. When you are replying to a specific question or comment, click the “Reply” button and it will pre-fill the comment number and commenter name. This way everyone can fully enjoy the “conversation.” :})
Hi everyone. Thanks for being here. I will be in and out … on a work break… but I was eager to come to this salon.
I am curious about the degree of “sexism” going on in the military today. How are the women doing? I was so disturbed by the story of Alyssa Peterson who died.
Cindy Sheehan says that the Obama “afterglow” and present apologism (word?) for his militarism was a real blow to the anti-war movement. True?
That’s a very good question. I think, as I mention in the book-clearly it will take both a GI resistance movement as well as a broad civilian anti-war movement to effect the change that has to happen…but now, after starting to give talks about the book, and meeting more and more soldiers who are standing up and resisting, I’m of the mind that a GI resistance movement, along with some civilian support (lawyers, media, some financial help, etc), could at least in theory be taking the lead in the reconstruction of a broader anti-war movement. But obviously, this GI movement would possibly end both these occupations-but not necessarily end the deep institutionalization of the militarization of our society and culture-that would take a broad, deep, committed civilian population in an anti-war movement.
Sexism is rampant in the military-which is no surprise. I have a chapter in the book titled “resisting sexism”. when we cross-reference statistics, and these are all outlined in said chapter, if a woman is considering joining the u.s. military today-she basically is guaranteed that she’ll be raped or sexually assaulted. It’s truly that bad. For example-I interviewed a woman named April Fitzsimmons-who was in the military back in the late ’80’s-she was sexually assaulted, and went on to co-found the group Service Women’s Action Network (SWAN), and now is advising all women to NOT join the military until appropriate actions are taken by the top brass to effectively deal with this crisis-which they are currently still failing to do.
Thanks Dahr …
Certainly given the reports that came out a few weeks ago about the cluster of crimes committed here by that one unit got attention but the background of what they had been doing in Iraq was swept under the rug though Dave Phillips included important details ( http://tinyurl.com/l5rslv ). Quite the opposite of resisters but it gave a sense of how chaotic and brutal the situation has been – and how damaged so many troops are, either from pre-military issues which the recruiting fiasco allows through or by the insanity of what they see and do.
On Cindy’s comment about Obama-I could not agree more. Obama is little more than a repackaging of Bush policy-one clue-same Secretary of Defense, and most of the top-brass remains the same, over 131,000 troops still in Iraq, and massive escalation in Afghanistan/Pakistan. Look for these trends to increase.
Dahr, do you have any sense of how the shift in troop levels and casualties from Iraq to Afghanistan is likely to affect the nature of military resistance?
Wow, I knew it was bad, but how horrifying. The collective ego of so many in this country who have that carry-over romanticized jingoism about “soldiering” and who foster their children’s fantasy of what war and soldiering is like. What a stunning shock and awe surreality they have to face. And desensitization that happens more and more, deployment on top of deployment, especially.
And so much stress and violence … and scapegoating of the “different” as in women or those not drinking the macho kool-aid … and that ugly and vicious, human nature tendency to act out in rage at the shadow side of oneself, to punish outward if one is not taking responsibility for one’s guilt and immorality.
Did I read that in the Israeli army which used to be an indication of peer integration of males and females they have to segregate the genders now. Can’t remember where I read that. Sorry.
What is the story on “friendly fire”.
What is your take on horrifying Blackwater?
This is only increasing resistance. In fact, these are two critical factors, along with the fact that there is no real timeline for withdrawal from either country. The increasing escalation in Afghanistan, coupled with increasing casualties, is playing a large part in increasing resistance-I recently covered the stories of two soldiers from the same Brigade in Fort Hood, Texas-both of which had served a tour in Iraq, both publicly resisting Afghanistan deployment. Both of them told me that everyone in their respective units felt as they did-but were simply afraid to take a stand. Yet I’m hearing that after they took their stand-all of the sudden the GI resistance cafe there that is helping resisters, their phone is ringing off the hook with soldiers calling to learn how to take a stand.
The other factor-the casualties-more than ever most folks in the military get that if you are wounded and come home, you’re basically screwed-a VA that won’t/can’t help you for a minimum of 6 months, you’ll have to fight the military to get benefits owed you, and this against the backdrop of a civilian population that is, largely, not tuned in to the fact that there are two massive wars going on…not a recipe that makes most soldiers want to go running around in Afghanistan or Iraq.
Blackwater is the tip of the iceberg-we have scores of mercenary companies now operating in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and the only thing outpacing the escalation of troops in Afghanistan is the number of mercenaries being deployed.
I called the NYC VA to ask if I could come in and do volunteer work, I thought maybe in a person to person capacity and was told curtly I could answer phones or file, that was it. I asked if I could donate books and was told they had an excellent library. I hung up feeling like I had presumed on their time. Don’t know if it was one king-bee in the office or VA policy, but it was sad. A one minute if that exchange.
Dahr, you are doing a hero’s job here. No one else brings it to us like you do. Thanks.
What role does Pakistan’s fight with India have in our war in Afghanistan? It seems we are there wearing blinders to the political realities of the region.
This is scary. Along with the “normalization” of torture. I read that 1 out of 4 Americans is against any form of torture. That is astonishing.
And torture is a war crime and a felony. We are in an accountability coma in this country.
You could contact http://www.ivaw.org and ask them what you can do to help-they do loads of work with vets, helping them resist, but also helping folks get their benefits.
Thank you for your kind words. I will ask Gareth to comment, if he will, on “What role does Pakistan’s fight with India have in our war in Afghanistan? It seems we are there wearing blinders to the political realities of the region.”
Very encouraging reports. Is the non-military movement against the Afghanistan occupation doing anything to link up with some of the coffee houses that are springing up near military bases, to show solidarity, provide information on the war or other useful integrative actions?
I am from a long line of family military men. The horror stories and fear that follow these men the rest of their lives should not be brushed aside. As in my father’s case, the Korean War, he did not know whom he was fighting against. The same in my uncle’s tenure in the Vietnam War, with not being able to recognize the enemy. Do you feel this is true now? As an American, I have a hard time keeping up with the enemy myself.
Good afternoon,
Do you hear anyone in your interviews speculate about a possible return of the draft?
Pros and cons?
Personally, I think that without the upclose and personal investment of one’s OWN loved ones being put in harm’s way, these wars-for-profit will continue…and continue to escalate.
Thanking you in advance for any reply.
I loathe in every cell of my body the use of U.S. combat forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.
But I was a soldier once, a long time ago, in a faraway land. I was a volunteer serving alongside draftees.
I’ve always understood the draftees’ case for rebelling against immoral war. I still find it not possible to understand the posture of a volunteer’s rebelling against a wrongful war. Wrongful orders: yes. Wrongful war: That’s a political call to which I subscribed wholeheartedly when I became a volunteer.
On the relationship between India-Pakistan and the war in Afghanistan, one thing is very clear: the Obama administration’s notion that they are going to send Dick Holbrooke out to the region to knock heads together and get everyone behind the U.S. war is complete idiocy. I wrote my Master’s Thesis on U.S.-Pakistan relations back in 1966, and I concluded that the U.S. had been in complete denial about the reality that Paks never had the same strategic interests as the U.S. Nothing has changed in the past 4 decades and more. The Pakistani military is still supporting the Taliban for their own strategic reasons, and that’s not going to change.
I’ve heard that more and more gang members are getting into the military. Skinheads, etc. And is their the religiosity with some that is being lathered on the Air Force, is it?
And there is a big stigma for active duty soldiers especially to complain of psychological problems, and then the anti-whistle-blowing code, also.
I am seeing a broadening support among communities where these GI resistance coffee houses are located. At the Under the Hood Cafe at Fort Hood, TX, there is a solid support base there of civilians and lawyers who make it possible for soldiers to stand up against these illegal orders to deploy to Iraq/Afghanistan. When I spoke with the two aforementioned soldiers about their stands, they both told me they could not have done it without the coffee house there to support them.
For those who don’t know-there are two other very solid GI coffee houses-A Different Drummer cafe near Ft. Drum in upstate New York, and Coffee Strong-a play on the Army propaganda slogan ‘Army Strong,’ out near Ft. Lewis in WA state. And there are more coffee houses in the works.
Yes-very important point. And as far as keeping up with the enemy today-it’s easy-it’s our government.
Thanks Gareth!
Obama has got to communicate with both Iran and Pakistan to help extricate US from the Mid-East … if he is at all close to doing the sane thing. But he must let go of the corporate “occupation” agenda for imperialistic exploitation.
What is going on out there on the less active 800 or so military bases. And we are sprouting new ones in Colombia which is scary and a fresh hell no one has time it seems to look at.
What can we do to stop the military contractors? Seems to me they are making war to keep a job. This is bad for our military.
“wink” ;-) Got It!
Yes-the military, despite the surge in recruiting due to the economic downturn, is taking basically anybody with a pulse. Currently there are at least 8,000 soldiers in Iraq who have rap sheets. And this includes skin heads, and people with health problems. One week ago I spoke with a soldier in Alaska who told me the military tried to deploy him to Iraq even though he had been diagnosed with a brain tumor. This is not uncommon. At all.
Gee, Mr, Porter, I’ve heard a lot of talk about the Pakistan military not providing the support for the Taliban that it previously did, and that the Pakistan military is changing as situations in the area change.
Speaking of deploying people unfit for duty, I want to draw your attention to a recent article I co-authored with Sarah Lazare:
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/tomg…..#more-1571
It’s about how the military is warehousing folks who have gone AWOl, and folks with mental health problems, let’s them sit in a room and rot, then offers them a chance to be forgiven for having gone AWOL, or get medical treatment, IF they go to Afghanistan.
That is scary. 8,000! Where is the media on this. Talking titillating gossip politics rather than news and investigation.
We have really betrayed the youth of this country with the militarism. The blood lust after 9/11. The xenophobia and racism.
So many “national guardsmen and women” had no idea what they were getting into, did they? The signed up for service for economic reasons, thinking they would serve the country domestically … and look what happened.
That’s the official line of the U.S. military, as articulated by Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mullen. But he’s a self-interested military bureaucrat who wants badly to have lots of cooperation with the Pakistani military, including bringing more of their officers over here to train and getting more U.S. officers into the country. He’s not being entirely honest on this question, that’s for sure.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion but I cannot agree with your assertion that our government is the enemy.
WTF?
This article outlines why the occupation of Afghanistan, like that in Iraq, violates both international and domestic law:
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/afgh…..#more-1550
thus-those resisting are being uber-patriotic, while those mindlessly following illegal orders are, well, mindlessly following illegal orders.
No, Mr Porter, that’s what i read in the Daily Times of Pakistan and Pakistan Dawn.
I encourage you to read this article-where US foreign policy is highlighted-then you can decide what might be the problem:
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/iraq…..#more-1558
A taste:
The National Security Strategy of the US, updated in March 2006, lines out several goals for the US abroad.
Included are the following missions:
“Ignite a new era of global economic growth through free markets and free trade,” and, “pressing for open markets, financial stability, and deeper integration of the world economy.”
The future strategy of US foreign policy involves, according to the document: “Opening markets and integrating developing countries,” and “Reforming the international financial system to ensure stability and growth.”
The document adds: “In our interconnected world, stable and open financial markets are an essential feature of a prosperous global economy. We will work to improve the stability and openness of markets by: Promoting growth-oriented economic policies worldwide,” and “strengthening international financial institutions.” Regarding the Middle East, it reads, “We seek a Middle East of independent states, at peace with each other, and fully participating in an open global market of goods, services, and ideas. (emphasis added).”
This policy dovetails perfectly with that lined out by the Quadrennial Defense Review Report from the Department of Defense. The most recent iteration of this report, published on February 6, 2006, says there is a stated ability for the US military to fight “multiple overlapping wars” and to “ensure that all major and emerging powers are integrated as constructive actors and stakeholders into the international system (emphasis added).”
This brings us to the 2008 National Defense Strategy, which reads: “US interests include protecting the nation and our allies from attack or coercion, promoting international security to reduce conflict and foster economic growth, and securing the global commons and with them access to world markets and resources. To pursue these interests, the US has developed military capabilities and alliances and coalitions, participated in and supported international security and economic institutions, used diplomacy and soft power to shape the behavior of individual states and the international system, and using force when necessary. These tools help inform the strategic framework with which the United States plans for the future, and help us achieve our ends. (emphasis added)”
To accomplish these objectives, among many others, the National Security Strategy goes on to add:
“Our forces will be strong enough to dissuade potential adversaries from pursuing a military build-up in hopes of surpassing or equaling the power of the US. To accomplish this, the US will require bases and stations within and beyond western Europe and Northeast Asia. (emphasis added) “
This is another tip of another iceberg. We’re working on a follow up article of the US military warehousing troops then dredging the warehouses to get more boots for Afghanistan-we found it’s not just at Ft. Bragg-it’s policy-it’s all over the U.S. Article to come soon, for TomDispatch, like the first one. Yes, it’s shocking, and revolting. I’m wondering how the military is holding together at this point.
Bear in mind that this is not a publicly acknowledged Pakistani policy. Pakistani press articles are inevitably heavily influenced by the information they are given by the ISI.
What is the story of earnest journalists trying to report on combat in Afghanistan and Iraq? To be embedded does that mean drinking the military kool-aid and protecting the military even out of a natural bonding and cronyism?
Email and phone cameras have made secrecy harder for the military I am assuming. Though the “secrecy” code is probably pretty strong.
The motivation for serving and even redeployg maybe is more to help one’s fellow soldiers than for an ideology? Or is there a strong ideology still going on?
PS-this has to do with our National Security how? Exactly? So imagine how soldiers feel, who’ve been putting their lives on the line-when they wake up and read this policy-and realize they have been risking their lives for corporate profit and US military hegemony? Not exactly why they joined the military.
Withdrawing 100,000 troops from Iraq will do very nicely to hold the military together.
I personally had a client from a nearby base (unrelated auto accident case) who was diagnosed bi-polar upon return from Iraq, then shipped off to Guam for a stint, then redeployed to Iraq. I don’t know what happened to him after his return…..probably had his med record scrubbed and given a general discharge.
What is being done about domestic violence post military service? Addictions?
Now’s as good a time as any to trot out Gen. Smedley Butler’s old chestnut of a speech:
Good questions. It is rare to find a reported that embeds that will report accurately on what they see-because if you embed and are critical of the military, you get blacklisted. I managed to get blacklisted without embedding. I’m proud of that. :)
Motivation for soldiers to stay in to help protect their fellow soldiers is strong-this was a deliberate shift in the military strategy from lessons learned from Vietnam-to maintain unit coherence so soldiers bond, so when, as now, they are deployed and redeployed, soldiers will stay in solely to cover their buddies backs, even though they are opposed to what is going on. That happens often.
Military Contractors: XE/Blackwater, Armor, Etc.
Do they have the same mission that our US Military has?
I think they cause problems to escalate for their jobs sake.
If I can insert a remark into the exchange over this question of the U.S. as “enemy”, I would suggest that if we substitute for that highly emotional term a more neutral term, such as “the main source of the problem of insecurity in this country and in the Middle East”, it might be clearer that this may be less a quarrel over the reality than over semantics.
Indeed!
Agreed.
Mr. Porter, you have it quite backward. Not supporting the Taliban is exactly publicly announced policy.
I’ve read quite a bit that suggests that the Pakistan military is actually shooting at the Taliban!!!
Do you have strong advocates in the Congress helping the anti-war GI activists?
Military contractors-there is conflict between they and US military personnel for several reasons-some of the foremost being that they are paid about 10 times more than military personnel-but also because mercenaries do not have to abide by the UCMJ or international law…plus they can leave the war zone and not come back anytime they choose, without punishment.
Welcome Dahr Jamail and Gareth Porter. Just arriving on the thread. Dahr, I think I first became familiar with you listening to Democracy Now. I have ultimate respect for you and your work and look forward to what you have to say today about this interesting subject.
Now I’m going back to the beginning to read all lthe comments so far.
No-this is lacking in a big way…and certainly an area where much much work needs to be done. I think Kucinich would be sympathetic, but don’t know of others.
What is the personal interaction like between mercenaries and US personnel? Different pay scales I have heard. Less accountability for the mercenaries? More cowboy behavior among the mercenaries?
Agreed! I knew what he was talking about. It’s MIC that is the enemy so to speak. It’s their bread and butter.
Not surprised but saddened.
Glad Rachel Maddow often gives air time to Vets against the Iraq war.
And the Obama administration, itself?
Sorry, that was exactly the point I intended to make. The Pakistani military claims it is on our side publicly, while covertly supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan.
12% of troops in Iraq are on psychotropic meds. I spoke with someone 2 weeks ago who was diagnosed, by the military, with PTSD. They then tried to send him to Iraq, saying, “You can get more treatment in Iraq for your PTSD.”
Can’t make this stuff up.
I see you covered this. Thanks.
Joseph Heller’s Catch 22 seems tame next to this stuff.
Dahr,
I had an incident involving my class at UAA this past week. A young man went almost running from a concert of new music I had him attend at UAA. The music playing was actually incredibly nerve-wracking. It turned out that the man had served two tours in the USMC in Iraq, and has had head injuries. He is recovering to a great extent. I talked with him at length afterward. Turns out he’s a poli sci major.
I don’t discuss my political life with my classes at UAA, but I opened up to this young Veteran when meeting with him. I told him about your book, and your upcoming Alaska visit. He wants to meet you.
Phil Munger
Were you aware of the recent flap over the Rendon Group-the PR firm that had been running interference on war reporters? Even GRADING their reportage for how sympathetic it was or wasn’t to the US military?
Incidentally, the MULTI million $$ contract between Rendon Group was cancelled last week.
And as a further O/T tidbit,John Rendon is married to Scooter Libby’s sister,Sandra. The Rendon Group has made hundreds of millions of dollars over the past decade and a half or so in contracts with the miltary,btw.
What is the story of third party nationals who get contractors subtracting for peanuts to them? Is there any oversight over the mercenaries. What about this crazy embassy guard behavior recently that broke?
Phil-I look forward to meeting him. Yes-TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury) is now very very common with returning vets. See you in late November when I’m in AK.
Yeah, really. Re: “You can get more treatment in Iraq for your PTSD.” What he means is he’ll get a new strain of PTSD that will over-ride the previous version.
yes-not surprising.
Mr Porter, that was very much the case a year or two ago, but I would suggest that things have changed somewhat and that you wouldn’t be able to find strong support for the Taliban in a Pakistani military warring with it.
Just back from a local Wasilla Democrats brain crunching session. Catching up on the comments….
Any ideas on how to awaken the sleeping populace who knows so very little about what’s going on? Besides reading your book, of course, which I am now off to order from the FDL link!
You don’t appear to be distinguishing between the Pakistani Taliban and the Taliban in Afghanistan. Yes, the Pakistani military is at war with the Pakistani Taliban, but not with the one in Afghanistan.
I’d like to be clear about what I said about who the real enemy is-because my curt statement that it’s “our government” is not accurate. it’s the corporate power behind the government-it’s the fact that most of those in power positions in our government answer to corporate lobbyists rather than the people they supposedly represent-thus, if we had to define an ‘enemy’ it would be those corporations that profit by supporting policies that they earn money on-like war (blackwater halliburton bechtel etc) and big pharma, etc.
@88
Reinstitute the draft.
That’s a revilee for sure!
I think the best thing to do now is to find a cause and become very active as a citizen. Whatever it is-Iraq, Afghanistan, climate change, Palestine, whatever it is you care most about-the most important thing is to express the caring by taking action towards effecting change. Most folks seem to think knowing about things is enough-but it’s only the beginning. That said-disseminating information remains critical-especially when we witness the laughable state that most of the mainstream media has sunk to.
Thanks for clarifying…..but most of us probably instinctively knew what you meant in the first place.
@90
To the best of my knowledge, no Arab country possess its own military industry.If the West were truly interested in brokering peace, wouldn’t they put a moratorium on selling arms to these warring factions,years ago?
Well said. Pfizer was fined $2.3 BILLION dollars for illegally promoting 4 unproven drugs and no one goes to jail!!!! No accountability. In fact they issue a statement about how “issues that diminish trust are now behind us.” Well, that was easy. Roche is distributing Accutane and not warning how powerful it is, only for very extreme acne, and kids are getting Krohn’s disease. Oooopsie.
Dahr, the question of how to understand and deal politically with the military bureaucracies — the leaders and staffs of the military services themselves– is a crucial issue in trying to build an anti-militarism movement. What is your view on whether they should be viewed as a key element of the problem of U.S. militarism, a lesser component of the MIC, or something else?
The real issue is that they don’t just want peace. They want the villagers to be peaceful while they occupy/take over and institute their preferred government heads.
This is just as true today as it was in Korea and Vietnam…it’s nearly impossible for US soldiers to define who the enemy is abroad. This is because all of those, and both of these, are guerrilla wars…so by their very nature, those fighting US troops are civilians themselves, and can launch attacks then immediately fade back into the civilian culture in their area. This leads to US soldiers killing many many civilians, then those soldiers come home with severe PTSD because they know they’ve killed innocent people…and they must deal with that the rest of their lives.
These are the brunt of the people I interviewed in my book…and the fact that they are now taking courageous stands against these occupations is honorable, and deserves our greatest respect…in addition to the fact that it is very healing for them to do so as well.
You’re quite right that you and then myself haven’t made that distinction, but I think that ultimately there’s not much of a distinction to be made. As long as members of the Taliban are willing to act violently against people native to the area, the distinction breaks down, as the Pakistanis found out lately.
dahr, are you coming back to austin any time soon? it was a real honor seeing you here last time you were here.
Dealing appropriately and effectively with people in the military bureaucracies is an essential part that needs to be addressed in an anti-militarism movement in the US. I think it would be very helpful for the movement to focus on giving these folks information (about US policy, about what more can be done to help vets, etc), as well as doing so in a way that they know is from the spirit of trying to help them help more vets. This is the meaning of ’support the troops.’
That said-I think it’s key to underscore the ‘policy’ part-which is why i made that large post above-because even these folks in the military bureaucracy are largely ignorant of true US policy-just like most US citizens are. Giving truthful information can only be a helpful thing.
Thanks! People that do not live vets have no idea. Sleep is not even rest.
not anytime soon-i’m talking with some folks there about giving another talk at UT, but nothing set yet. we’ll post it on my site when it happens:
http://www.dahrjamailiraq.com
thanks!
Well and poignantly said. They say if you don’t pass it back you pass it on. PTSD … seek out addictions as symptoms to numb the pain, the memories. How courageous to face the feelings and be honest. And courage is contagious.
PTSD victims can inspire PTSD in their personal network with hair trigger temper, overreaction, depression, etc.
And there is such pressure on men in this society to never show tears. Anger is okay, not sadness. With women it is often, show the tears but don’t you dare show the anger.
There has been some reporting on the military becoming more and more a Crusades mentality.
Militant Christianity,so to speak. Modern day Templars,if you will.
Have you encountered this Christian vs. Muslim meme in your experience,especially with the top brass?
Are you serious?
About what?
Dahr – is there any progress being made with Hospitals in Iraq being able to get adequate medical supplies; lack of supplies has been an ongoing problem for a while. And what about medical personnel? I understand that man qualified doctors and surgeons left the country during the early years of the occupation, have they returned?
sorry – I gess that’s a little off-topic.
In suggesting that our military leadership is looking to kill people because of religious differences.
Very much so. Many soldiers have told me they know other soldiers, some relatively high ranking, who were trying to convert Iraqis to Christianity. There’ve been news reports of troops manning checkpoints around Fallujah who were distributing religious propaganda to residents there…pretty creepy stuff indeed. Then of course we have Scahill’s recent report that Mr. Prince, the former CEO of Blackwater, had told some of his employees part of the reason he formed the company was to try to wipe out Islam. A bit of a crusade, we can say.
This continues to be a huge problem. The Iraqi medical system is in shambles-so supply/drug/electricity/water shortages remain huge problems, to put it mildly. Then we have the fact that most of Iraq’s dr’s have long since fled, and most of those never intend to go back to Iraq. On top of this-now corruption is a huge problem-given that most of Iraq’s ministries are peopled at the top by political or US appointees, they are basically filling their pockets with the cash and just throwing scraps at where the real need really exists-the medical system there is a case in point.
Horrifying.
GW Bush: “this crusade, this war against terrorism….” The man was foolish enough to say exactly what he meant. He backed down only after scaring the hell out of every sane thinker.
The Fellowship also made inroads within the U.S. military, particularly the officers’ ranks. Through an entity known as the Officers Christian Fellowship (OCF), the Fellowship tapped officers in all the services and future officers in the service academies to become “ambassadors for Christ in uniform.” The motto of the OCF is “Pray, Discover, Obey.”
The Christian Military Fellowship served as the OCF’s counterpart among the enlisted ranks. Adjunct Fellowship organizations targeted foreign officers and enlisted men, particularly in Great Britain and Australia; service spouses; and service mothers. The international military fellowship is known as the Association of Military Christian Fellowships (AMCF).
Eventually, the Fellowship would count some of the military’s top leaders among its members. They include former Joint Chiefs Chairman General David Jones, Joint Chiefs chairman General Richard Myers, former Marine Corps Commandant and NATO commander General James L. Jones, Iran-contra figure Marine Lt. Col. Oliver North, and, perhaps even more controversial than North, Army Lt. Gen. William “Jerry” Boykin, the military head of Defense Secretary Rumsfeld’s intelligence branch. In 2003, Boykin, in a speech to the First Baptist Church in Daytona Beach, Florida, referred to the United States as a “Christian nation” and, that in reference to a Somali warlord, he stated, “ I knew that my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol.” The reverberations of Boykin’s comments were felt around the world. But his allies and Fellowship compatriots, Rumsfeld, Myers, Kansas Representative Todd Tiahrt, and most important, George W. Bush, refused to condemn him.
Calls for Boykin’s reassignment when unheeded. Soon afterwards, Boykin’s Pentagon intelligence group was discovered to have been involved with the torture and sexual molestation of prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The sexual molestation of prisoners included male and female teens being held in Iraq.__________________”Expose’: Christian Mafia”.(Link to follow)
Please name someone in the “top brass” of the military that you know to be hostile to Islam.
bingo.
I’m comming late to the discussion and don’t know if this point of view is has been visited
I am normally quite progressive as everyone here knows, there are times however I have proven quite concervative for certain issues
this issue is one of those
I am of the firm opinion that once you join the military you have voluntarily forfeit your rights as far as political decisions, as far as military decisions, as far as any orders what so ever
I do beleive individuals can assert defiance however that deciance must be weighed against their obligagations as soldiers.
when there was a draft I believed otherwise and someone who has served more then the term he bargained for due to stop loss or any other reason I believe otherwise but for those who’ve enlisted I don’t personally lose any sympathy when they are ordered to a station they do not agree
see above:
Eventually, the Fellowship would count some of the military’s top leaders among its members. They include former Joint Chiefs Chairman General David Jones, Joint Chiefs chairman General Richard Myers, former Marine Corps Commandant and NATO commander General James L. Jones, Iran-contra figure Marine Lt. Col. Oliver North, and, perhaps even more controversial than North, Army Lt. Gen. William “Jerry” Boykin, the military head of Defense Secretary Rumsfeld’s intelligence branch.
—for starters…
EXPOSÉ: THE “CHRISTIAN” MAFIA
The term “Christian Mafia” is what several Washington politicians have termed the major conspirators and it is not intended to debase Christians or infer …
http://www.insider-magazine.com/ChristianMafia.htm – Cached – Similar___________
Incidentally, Christian Mafia refers to the “C” Street group of recent infamy,the Fellowship.
This was an earlier post that applies to your question:
This article outlines why the occupation of Afghanistan, like that in Iraq, violates both international and domestic law:
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/afgh…..#more-1550
thus-those resisting are being uber-patriotic, while those mindlessly following illegal orders are, well, mindlessly following illegal orders.
What’s the link between holding Christian religious views and making war against Islam?
Dahr — it sounds like a lot of the soldiers start off with one set of expectations about the wars and become educated by their experiences. Do you have any insight into how that happens because it would be nice if people could change their minds without going to war. I say “education” and I mean more than just an attitude change. I haven’t read your book but reading the Amazon reviews it seems many soldiers are aware of the international law situation and certainly the simple “if I was invaded I’d resist too” concept. But presumably nobody hands them the UN charter so how does this happen? What is the process?
Also the view of soldiers in the US is that they are “heroes” serving the citizens who owe them honour for that “service”. Some comments in this thread reflect that view. Do the soldiers who have undergone this education by war share this view? It sometimes seems they reject the hero/service concept while still demanding a respect based not so much on heroism but on something else. Survival perhaps.
I suggest you do some independent research; it appears you are not open to being told anything here.
You wrote:
Often people join the military before they’ve learned to think for themselves. Once they learn, how do they shut off the questions that arise?
Here is an excellent article form Christian Science Monitor:
Are U.S. troops being force-fed Christianity? | csmonitor.comAt Speicher base in Iraq, US Army Spec. Jeremy Hall got permission from a … brand of Christianity and to permit improper evangelizing in the ranks. …
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1004/p13s02-lire.html – Cached – Similar
the people who get their news from the msm more than likely have absolutely no idea what they’re getting themselves into when they volunteer. hardly anyone knows we fight wars for the profit of a few companies. hardly anyone knows this is official united states policy. i can’t fault young men for finding out later and then wanting out. if we had a main stream media that was reporting what’s actually happening and people chose to join the military to fight our wars of economic imperialism (and profit for our domestic weapons manufacturings and contractors) then i could agree with you.
As we come to the end of this lively Book Salon,
Dahr, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us discussing your new book and your experiences covering wars.
Gareth, Thank you very much for Hosting this great Book Salon,
Everyone, if you have not bought Dahr’s book yet, here is a link.
Thanks all.
Perris, having attended Lt. Watada’s speeches and marched with the Iraq Vets Against the War, I respectfully disagree. On learning that the military they joined after 9-11 was hellbent on illegal war and immoral occupation these brave young patriots stood up to defend their country through resistance.
I’d like to add that it is a common misunderstanding that most folks have, as did I prior to working on my book-that when someone joins the military they basically forfeit their rights. This is simply not the case-and this is why we have things like the Military Law Task Force and the GI Rights Hotline-both of which exist only to help apprise and educate military folks of their rights-whether about how to not follow illegal orders, or other issues like getting their benefits from the VA, etc…soldiers have far more rights than they are led to believe from the military…and they are duty-bound, by the UCMJ, never to follow illegal orders. That is where real resistance comes in, and it is lawful, honorable, moral resistance, and extremely patriotic.
Obviously, evangelism by gunpoint isn’t an ideal method of conversion.
Bev, thanks much for having me, and Gareth, a real pleasure to have this time with you…and thank you for your ongoing work.
All my best to you both, and to everyone who was here today.
Ciao,
Dahr
thanks so much!!! Dahr and Gareth and Bev, et al.
It’s been a pleasure to participate. Thanks to FDL and Dahr.
@127
BRAVO,greenwarrior!
Dahr – since groups like Blackwater and KBR etc are making life more difficult for the enlisted men and women due to shoddy work, unsafe shower facilities, tainted food and water, and indiscriminattely killing Iraqi citizens, is there any form of ‘resistance’ or push-back taking place by our military people against these groups?
Dahr — someone in a comment there said they had little sympathy for a soldier who refuses orders simply to save their own skin. We might have more sympathy for a soldier refusing orders “on principle” because the orders are illegal, or out of fear of harming civilians.
Are these two sets of reasons completely separate? Does one lead to the other in the minds of the resisters? How do those two different attitudes / reasons relate?
gareth and dahr, thank you both so much. it’s been a horrifying eye-opener for me and i appreciate both of your comments and even-handedness.
And best of luck in getting the word out about your book!
I agree with that entirely, but don’t think that’s our policy.
Thanks to Mr. Jamail ,and to ALL who made this informative interlude possible.
Jane Hamsher is upstairs!
And Nobody Thought To Say “What Deal”?
Thank you kindly for your suggestion.
Do some independent research. You may be surprised at how pervasive the Christianizing is…..and the resulting antipathy to Islam and muslims in general.
thanks gg.
as dakine would say, on a technical note, if you hit the reply button when you’re responding to someone, the comment # will automatically get filled in and anyone who wants to can click in place to see what was said in that comment.
in our world, there’s often a BIG difference between an entity’s stated policy and what it is they’re actually doing, regardless of what they say the policy is. often the stated policy is cover for the mayhem the entity is actually up to.
@145
Thank you for the technical assisstance.
I need all the help I can get!
The reply button isn’t working,it seems.
after you’ve posted a comment, you often have to hit the refresh button on your browser for the reply button to work. want to try it?
I have done a little. I think what was suggested was different from saying that there are a big bunch of hard-core Christians in the military.
It’s a long way from that to saying that we’re out Crusading.
Are you comfortable turning it around? There are a large bunch of people making war on us who hold very fervent religious views different from Christian. Are they fighting out of hostility to Christianity?
I won’t at all disagree that there’s more and different than what’s stated and that what’s stated isn’t always true.
But the sort of stuff being suggested should be backed up with something concrete.
We are out crusading.
sort of like, while the economic powers that be are fighting this war for profits that kill and injure people, we might’s well convert as many of the victims as possible.
Will we be back soon?
That’s the scary part…it doesn’t look like it, from what I can tell.
We will never be “back.”
I guess they would have invited me along if I wasn’t such a disputatious little macaque.
But I agree with you, this is going to last a while.
http://www.artsycraftsy.com/do…..ermore.jpg
This is quite a parallel:
The rise of Israel’s military rabbis – 5 days ago
Israel’s army is changing. Once proudly secular, its combat units are now filling with those who believe Israel’s wars are “God’s wars”. Military rabbis are …BBC News – 1146 related articles »