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	<title>Comments on: Empire Falls? Obama Embraces Bush&#8217;s Afghanistan War</title>
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	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/10/empire-falls-obama-embraces-bushs-afghanistan-war/</link>
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		<title>By: Gitcheegumee</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/10/empire-falls-obama-embraces-bushs-afghanistan-war/#comment-1975840</link>
		<dc:creator>Gitcheegumee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 14:01:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/10/empire-falls-obama-embraces-bushs-afghanistan-war/#comment-1975840</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Obama’s Blackwater? Chicago Mercenary Firm Gets Millions for …Apr 2, 2009 … Federal records obtained by AlterNet reveal a multi-million dollar contract for a private US paramilitary force operating out of Jerusalem.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.alternet.org/…/obama’s_blackwater_chicago_mercenary_firm_gets_millions_for_private_%22security%22_in_israel_and_iraq_/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.alternet.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;www.alternet.org/&lt;/a&gt;…/obama…..and_iraq_/ - Cached - Similar&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;NOTE: This is an article about a firm called Triple Canopy. There will be a LOT of talk about this firm in the very near future.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obama’s Blackwater? Chicago Mercenary Firm Gets Millions for …Apr 2, 2009 … Federal records obtained by AlterNet reveal a multi-million dollar contract for a private US paramilitary force operating out of Jerusalem.<br /><a href="http://www.alternet.org/…/obama’s_blackwater_chicago_mercenary_firm_gets_millions_for_private_%22security%22_in_israel_and_iraq_/" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://www.alternet.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.alternet.org/</a>…/obama…..and_iraq_/ &#8211; Cached &#8211; Similar</p>
<p>NOTE: This is an article about a firm called Triple Canopy. There will be a LOT of talk about this firm in the very near future.</p>
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		<title>By: DWBartoo</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/10/empire-falls-obama-embraces-bushs-afghanistan-war/#comment-1975692</link>
		<dc:creator>DWBartoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:13:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Excellent post, Jeff.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Thank you.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;DW&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent post, Jeff.</p>
<p>Thank you.</p>
<p>DW</p>
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		<title>By: researcher</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/10/empire-falls-obama-embraces-bushs-afghanistan-war/#comment-1975680</link>
		<dc:creator>researcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 07:51:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/10/empire-falls-obama-embraces-bushs-afghanistan-war/#comment-1975680</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;obama’s vietnam afghanistan&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;we failed to learn our lessons in nam so maybe we will learn them with iraq and afghanistan&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;dont bet on it most americans still think they can do no wrong&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;watched a show on nam tonight and every soldier was proud of the vietnamese they killed and wanted to kill more to win that war&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;we are a war mongering country and dont have a clue we are&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;even most demos are imperialists&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;nation building will have a price bankruptcy&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;there now few realize it&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;the end result bye bye middle class&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>obama’s vietnam afghanistan</p>
<p>we failed to learn our lessons in nam so maybe we will learn them with iraq and afghanistan</p>
<p>dont bet on it most americans still think they can do no wrong</p>
<p>watched a show on nam tonight and every soldier was proud of the vietnamese they killed and wanted to kill more to win that war</p>
<p>we are a war mongering country and dont have a clue we are</p>
<p>even most demos are imperialists</p>
<p>nation building will have a price bankruptcy</p>
<p>there now few realize it</p>
<p>the end result bye bye middle class</p>
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		<title>By: ondelette</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/10/empire-falls-obama-embraces-bushs-afghanistan-war/#comment-1975658</link>
		<dc:creator>ondelette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 06:26:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/10/empire-falls-obama-embraces-bushs-afghanistan-war/#comment-1975658</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;DavidByron, do you remember when Eric Shinseki was the darling of the anti-war movement because he told the truth in the run-up to the War in Iraq. I agreed, you probably agreed (I don’t know but I presume you opposed the Iraq War?). Do you remember what he actually said? To occupy Iraq with a population of 16 million (at the time, UNDP figures), would require a force of 300,000 to 350,000 troops.  Occupation of territory is defined as effective military, economic, and political control on a routine day by day basis.  Using Eric Shinseki’s figures, the population of Afghanistan being about 32 million, would therefore require 600,000 to 700,000 troops. Do you have figures that any where near that many foreign troops are in Afghanistan? Then how can you contend they are under “hostile foreign military occupation?”  There are international law definitions of occupation, they are stated in terms of territory, not nations. The U.S. has locations in Afghanistan it is occupying, as do many other nations. They are not occupying the country, nor do they run it.  They exercise a lot of clout with the government there, but they do not exercise day to day government.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;By all means, have whatever opinions you like about what should be done about Afghanistan by the U.S. and the other 40 countries with troops or services there, and the UN agencies, and the ICRC delegations, and the NGOs and the 60+ donor nations. But don’t propagate phrases like “military occupation” or the other one “brutal invasion” (which also did not occur). They are propaganda, since they are not supported by fact. Regardless of anyone’s point of view on Afghanistan, if it is a sincere and reasoned point of view, it should not mind the application of fact.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In point of fact, the U.S. cannot unilaterally withdraw all of its troops (it can withdraw, but must negotiate that in NATO). Also, if you think that would remove foreign influence from the region, none of the development organizations would go anywhere, nor will watchdog groups.  And if you think peace would break out all over in that region with foreign withdrawal, you are seriously kidding yourself. If you even think it is possible for the U.S. to order the withdrawal of all “nation building” people from Afghanistan, you are likewise kidding yourself, as nobody from some of the organizations will budge with millions of refugees and IDPs and an active war in around 1/3 of the country, a still tattered economy and weak organs of state and local government. Many of them will continue to work on those problems, many have been there since 1978, and do not have the mandate in their charters to leave when they think too big a mess has been made.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DavidByron, do you remember when Eric Shinseki was the darling of the anti-war movement because he told the truth in the run-up to the War in Iraq. I agreed, you probably agreed (I don’t know but I presume you opposed the Iraq War?). Do you remember what he actually said? To occupy Iraq with a population of 16 million (at the time, UNDP figures), would require a force of 300,000 to 350,000 troops.  Occupation of territory is defined as effective military, economic, and political control on a routine day by day basis.  Using Eric Shinseki’s figures, the population of Afghanistan being about 32 million, would therefore require 600,000 to 700,000 troops. Do you have figures that any where near that many foreign troops are in Afghanistan? Then how can you contend they are under “hostile foreign military occupation?”  There are international law definitions of occupation, they are stated in terms of territory, not nations. The U.S. has locations in Afghanistan it is occupying, as do many other nations. They are not occupying the country, nor do they run it.  They exercise a lot of clout with the government there, but they do not exercise day to day government.</p>
<p>By all means, have whatever opinions you like about what should be done about Afghanistan by the U.S. and the other 40 countries with troops or services there, and the UN agencies, and the ICRC delegations, and the NGOs and the 60+ donor nations. But don’t propagate phrases like “military occupation” or the other one “brutal invasion” (which also did not occur). They are propaganda, since they are not supported by fact. Regardless of anyone’s point of view on Afghanistan, if it is a sincere and reasoned point of view, it should not mind the application of fact.</p>
<p>In point of fact, the U.S. cannot unilaterally withdraw all of its troops (it can withdraw, but must negotiate that in NATO). Also, if you think that would remove foreign influence from the region, none of the development organizations would go anywhere, nor will watchdog groups.  And if you think peace would break out all over in that region with foreign withdrawal, you are seriously kidding yourself. If you even think it is possible for the U.S. to order the withdrawal of all “nation building” people from Afghanistan, you are likewise kidding yourself, as nobody from some of the organizations will budge with millions of refugees and IDPs and an active war in around 1/3 of the country, a still tattered economy and weak organs of state and local government. Many of them will continue to work on those problems, many have been there since 1978, and do not have the mandate in their charters to leave when they think too big a mess has been made.</p>
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		<title>By: macaquerman</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/10/empire-falls-obama-embraces-bushs-afghanistan-war/#comment-1975421</link>
		<dc:creator>macaquerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 04:36:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/10/empire-falls-obama-embraces-bushs-afghanistan-war/#comment-1975421</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;G,night.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>G,night.</p>
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		<title>By: macaquerman</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/10/empire-falls-obama-embraces-bushs-afghanistan-war/#comment-1975420</link>
		<dc:creator>macaquerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 04:35:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/10/empire-falls-obama-embraces-bushs-afghanistan-war/#comment-1975420</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Anything in it about the clueless clownishness of comparisons that are certainly superficial?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anything in it about the clueless clownishness of comparisons that are certainly superficial?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Kaye</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/10/empire-falls-obama-embraces-bushs-afghanistan-war/#comment-1975409</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Kaye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 04:31:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/10/empire-falls-obama-embraces-bushs-afghanistan-war/#comment-1975409</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;God, I love how Chris can chew up the rhetorical scenery, and be right all at the same time! Thanks for the link.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;To  macaquerman @38, you’re welcome.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>God, I love how Chris can chew up the rhetorical scenery, and be right all at the same time! Thanks for the link.</p>
<p>To  macaquerman @38, you’re welcome.</p>
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		<title>By: Gitcheegumee</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/10/empire-falls-obama-embraces-bushs-afghanistan-war/#comment-1975390</link>
		<dc:creator>Gitcheegumee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 04:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Metrics of Monstrosity: Free Falling in AfghanistanSep 9, 2009 … Chris Floyd - Empire Burlesque - High Crimes and Low Comedy in the American Imperium.&lt;br /&gt;
chris-floyd.com/…/1836-metrics-of-monstrosity-free-falling-in-afghanistan.html -&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Metrics of Monstrosity: Free Falling in AfghanistanSep 9, 2009 … Chris Floyd &#8211; Empire Burlesque &#8211; High Crimes and Low Comedy in the American Imperium.<br />
chris-floyd.com/…/1836-metrics-of-monstrosity-free-falling-in-afghanistan.html -</p>
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		<title>By: Gitcheegumee</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/10/empire-falls-obama-embraces-bushs-afghanistan-war/#comment-1975387</link>
		<dc:creator>Gitcheegumee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 04:18:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/10/empire-falls-obama-embraces-bushs-afghanistan-war/#comment-1975387</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Chris Floyd has a superb piece over at Empire Burlesque about the insanity of Afghanistan War.Here’s a snippet:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;…”Meanwhile, Tom Englehardt provides us with some chilling metrics of the monstrosity in “Afghanistan by the Numbers: Measuring a War Gone to Hell.” He marshals an array of thoroughly sourced facts to paint a damning picture of where we are now in Afghanistan — in free fall toward the fiery pit. Read the whole thing — and know rage and despair.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
These are remarkably grim days; remarkable to watch a government commiting the same awful crimes, making the same murderous mistakes, displaying the same brutal arrogance and sheer pig-ignorance that we have seen over and over and over again, decade after decade&lt;/strong&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;
Every story out of Afghanistan reads like a dispatch from the botch and butchery in Korea, or the blundering frenzy in Vietnam, or the still-boiling bloodbath in Iraq. &lt;strong&gt;No lesson is ever learned from these depraved episodes, save one: empire means money and power for the few — so do whatever the hell you have to do to climb into that golden circle and stay there.”&lt;/strong&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;“Metrics of Monstrosity” Chris Floyd,Empire Burlesque(link to follow)&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris Floyd has a superb piece over at Empire Burlesque about the insanity of Afghanistan War.Here’s a snippet:</p>
<p>…”Meanwhile, Tom Englehardt provides us with some chilling metrics of the monstrosity in “Afghanistan by the Numbers: Measuring a War Gone to Hell.” He marshals an array of thoroughly sourced facts to paint a damning picture of where we are now in Afghanistan — in free fall toward the fiery pit. Read the whole thing — and know rage and despair.<br /><strong><br />
These are remarkably grim days; remarkable to watch a government commiting the same awful crimes, making the same murderous mistakes, displaying the same brutal arrogance and sheer pig-ignorance that we have seen over and over and over again, decade after decade</strong>.<br />
Every story out of Afghanistan reads like a dispatch from the botch and butchery in Korea, or the blundering frenzy in Vietnam, or the still-boiling bloodbath in Iraq. <strong>No lesson is ever learned from these depraved episodes, save one: empire means money and power for the few — so do whatever the hell you have to do to climb into that golden circle and stay there.”</strong> </p>
<p>“Metrics of Monstrosity” Chris Floyd,Empire Burlesque(link to follow)</p>
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		<title>By: macaquerman</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/10/empire-falls-obama-embraces-bushs-afghanistan-war/#comment-1975354</link>
		<dc:creator>macaquerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 03:53:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;I can also say thank you for answering.&lt;br /&gt;
If he tried to think it through, and certainly had quite a few of the foreign policy advisors on his campaign staff spend a lot of time and energy on it before advising him to continue the war, I’m not convinced about “obsession” , but I don’t really know the term.&lt;br /&gt;
Again, thanks.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can also say thank you for answering.<br />
If he tried to think it through, and certainly had quite a few of the foreign policy advisors on his campaign staff spend a lot of time and energy on it before advising him to continue the war, I’m not convinced about “obsession” , but I don’t really know the term.<br />
Again, thanks.</p>
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