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[Welcome Thom Hartmann, and Host Mommybrain - bev]
Threshold: The Crisis of Western Culture by Thom Hartmann
In October 08, I had the great good fortune to attend what was billed as a debate between teams of progressive and conservative talk show hosts: Thom Hartmann and Stephanie Miller on the left, Bill Handel and Alan Stock on the right. Bill Handel opened the program by saying we shouldn’t expect too much from him, as he had already decided he was voting for Obama. It was left to Alan Stock to spout the right wing talking points we had all expected to hear, which he reliably did. (You can find youtubes of parts of the debate here.)
As the afternoon progressed, it became clear to everyone, including the participants, that Thom was the Smartest Man in the Room. His grasp of history and his near-eidetic memory enabled him to refute Alan Stock’s talking points with both hands tied behind his back. Near the end of the afternoon, when the host would throw a question out to the group, each one of them would look to Thom for the first answer.
From Websters New American Dictionary:
* Main Entry: thresh·old
1 : the plank, stone, or piece of timber that lies under a door : sill
2 a : gate, door b (1) : end, boundary; specifically : the end of a runway (2) : the place or point of entering or beginning : outset
3 a : the point at which a physiological or psychological effect begins to be produced b : a level, point, or value above which something is true or will take place and below which it is not or will not
Thom Hartmann’s new book < Threshold begins with the premise that we are at a point in our civilization where meaningful change will take place and we will thrive … or it will not, and life as we know it will drastically change because we have used up all our options. He takes us on a tour of the civilizations that, over thousands of years, have disappeared or thrived, and presents the reasons why.
Population growth, militarization, the environment, and the insanity of our current economy are the doorways through which Thom presents his views of our current predicaments, from global warming to global economic woes. He presents vignettes and evidence to make his points, much of it new to me even if the ideas are not.
One of the overarching themes of this book is the interconnectedness of all life – humans, plants, animals, minerals – and how the most historically successful civilizations recognized and acted on this reality. Those that disappeared never made the connection. Are we facing the same fate? The prevalent worldview of most Americans is of us standing astride our planet, whip in hand, determined to subdue or consume everything non-human. Thom gives us new ways to see our interconnectedness.
Especially fascinating to me was his take on our modern, anti-bacterial, sanitized world as evidence we don’t see our connection with nature and the flora and fauna, much of it invisible, that inhabit the earth along with us humans.
Many of us know someone who is suffering from a chronic, perhaps disabling illness like Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD). Three generations ago, only 1 in 10,000 people had IDB, Crohn’s disease was rare, and multiple sclerosis was virtually unknown… Today, 1 in 250 has IBD… and other autoimmune disorders. Why? Turns out that one of the answer may be the parasites that inhabit our guts, or more specifically, the lack of them. Dr. Joel Weinstock began reintroducing certain worms into the bodies of test subjects who had Crohn’s and other disorders, including allergies, and discovered a startling correspondence between the worms and recovering patients. After 24 weeks of treatment with Tricuris suis, a worm endemic to pigs, 21 of 29 Crohn’s patients went into complete remission. We need nature more than nature needs us.
One of the sound effect buttons that Thom frequently pushes on his radio show is The Firesign Theatre chorusing Everything You Know is Wrong. I believe that’s true on a massive scale.
From the true believers who agree with Thomas Hobbes that mankind is inherently evil to those who base their economic arguments on mathematician John Nash’s Game Theory, which posits that humans are totally predictable and totally selfish in their actions and are incapable of acting altruistically, to Ayn Rand’s Objectivists who believe that freedom consists solely of the personal freedom to do whatever we want regardless of consequences to society, Thom shows how we have been led down the wrong path for the last 40 years by elected leaders who find these mindsets to be the ones that control us the most effectively. And it’s led us to the threshold at which we find ourselves today. (John Nash, by the way, was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and was institutionalized shortly after the Rand Corporation published his ideas. He later renounced game theory, but it was too late.)
We tend to forget, in all the wailing and gnashing of teeth, that our Democracy is young. After all the depressing data he rolls out, Thom produces evidence that cultures can figure out how to live in harmony with nature — all of nature, including each other. He invites us to share his optimism that we can change and continue to change for generations. Let’s hope that he’s right.
Oh well, at least, as we go on our merry way in the handbasket to hell, we’ve got the Smartest Man in the Room at our side giving us hope that we can turn the handbasket around. As Thom says every day at the end of his radio show, Revitalizing Democracy, it’s up to us. Tag, you’re it.
As always, please be polite to our guest and considerate of others… and stay on topic.



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Thom, Welcome back to the Lake.
Mommybrain, Thank you for Hosting today’s Book Salon.
Hi Thom, thanks so much for coming.
The idea I most resonate with from Threshold is the idea that we are all connected yet our modern world is so divorced from nature. The section on the parasitic worms was absolutely fascinating. Can you tell us a bit about that?
Welcome to Firedoglake – glad you could join us today!
Great to be here, and thanks for this book salon! And for the great review!
Any questions out there?
Ah, the worms – lemme type for a second…
I’m very impressed Mommybrain! Thanks for opening my eyes to this book and website!
This was one of the most surprising for me. Just in the past few months, a NEW study (not in the book, but will be in the paperback) has found that not only did we co-evolve with a small number of helminths (multicellular organisms, mostly called “worms”), but that in the cases of whipworms and hookworms, we actually have some of their DNA in our DNA. We literally NEED them in our bodies to modulate our immune systems, and without them we get Lupus, MS, ALS, Crohn’s, Celiac, IBD, IBS, heart disease, and cancers that are mediated by inflammation. There’s even a new direction of research suggesting that Alzheimer’s is inflammation-caused and the reason that people before the current generation never got it is because everybody always had worms until the last 30 or so years.
My Italian mom always told us, as she dusted us off from another faceplant in the dirt, “Everyone has to eat a pound of dirt before they die,” She taught us that dirty is not a crime. My son, who grew up with cats, dogs, chickens and goats, is rarely ill and I attribute that to his lack of, um, strict hygeine
This isn’t what they meant when they taught us about the Diet of Wurms at school!
Turns out that because through our evolution we always had these parasites – actually, symbiotes – they produce proteins to prevent our gut from rejecting them. Those proteins down-regulate our immune system by about 20% (varies depending on the cytokine you’re talking about) and keep us “normal.” Without the worms giving us their proteins, our immune systems are all revved up and look for things to attack – like our joints (arthritis); our gut (IBS/IBD/Celiac/Crohn’s); our brains (dementia, maybe autism); our nervous system (MS/ALS); etc.
Check out the wikipedia entry for “Helminthic Therapy” – it’s mind blowing. And all proves the concept that we are PART of NATURE!
Thom produces evidence that cultures can figure out how to live in harmony with nature — all of nature, including each other.
I’ll just point out that Jared Diamond’s Collapse covers similar ground, and very well. This does sound like an interesting companion book.
Anyway, welcome, Mr. Hartmann.
How did you learn about the worms? We use leeches again medicinally today, why not worms, too.
when we ate food that was pulled from the ground, and when as kids we played in the dirt, we all got these helminths. The last 30 years kids have not played outdoors (TV, video games, fear of kidnapping) and all of our food is super-sanitized. Hookworms and whipworms live 1-3 years in the body and then die and are gone. A few years later, these kinds of diseases seem to set in.
I’ve just been tracking the literature. I’m a AAAS member – http://www.science.org – and subscribe to a lot of the scientific journals. This topic has been really hot for the past 4 years or so.
At some point, hygiene or clean water, cross paths with health, since parts of the world without ’sanitary’ sources of water suffer from diarrhea and a high childhood mortality rate. How clean is too clean; or how dirty is too dirty?
My Norwegian grandma said the same thing!
Our obsession with being over nature and not part of it is what led us to the current environmental crisis. How can we reverse this trend? I try sending my son out to play, but there’s no one else out there for him to play with.
Great moms think alike.
Greetings Thom,
Thanks for hosting, Mommybrain, what a nice introduction to the book. I’m really looking forward to the discussion. Can’t say I disagree with the premise at all, it’s basic logic. We are *of* Nature, not above or beyond it.
Fascinating about reintroducing worms for Crohn’s and other gut disorders, as repulsive as worms may be. I know for my own self that after a dose of antibiotics (used to be de rigeur for my trip to the dentist), I always followed up with probiotics to reestablish a healthy flora/fauna for my gut. I am constantly amazed — no, stunned — that PHYSICIANS don’t automatically recommend probiotics after a regimen of antibiotics to get a patient’s intestines back in working order faster. Again, commonsense.
What other fascinating bits of info can you share with us?
As I said, I’m in harmony with your thinking.
I think each of us has a self-regulator that controls that. Of course we need clean commons, but do we really need anti-bacterial soap?
Freedom – that’s the question. It turns out that when the bug is in the right specie – all is well. We NEED acidophilus bacteria, for example, although in the 1950s docs were trying to kill it out of people’s guts with penicillin. We apparently also need hookworms and whipworms and maybe pinworms (the latter infect 40 million American kids right now!). The former two have virtually no side-effects; most people with them never know it. But they don’t get asthma, allergies, skin diseases, etc. People with worms don’t get anaphylactic shock from beestings and don’t hyperreact to vaccines. It’s all quite amazing. I met a guy in CA who sells worms and says he can “cure” MS and IBS “easily” and nearly all the time. I’ve talked with a few patients, who corroborate it. The scientific literature is incredible.
But the point is that we need to re-sacralize the world. We’ve put “god” in a box and visit “him” on Sundays, etc. Instead we need to realize that the entire world is sacred, it’s all alive, and we’re all part of it and we think that we’re separate and unique and independent from the rest of nature at our own peril.
OTOH, when we get cat parasites or dog parasites, we can get real sick. Next topic?
Hee Hee, my brother often mentions the stinky dishrag my Mom would wipe our faces with as tots that probably led to an allergy free and relatively healthy life we’ve lived. I can’t remember the last time I’ve even caught a cold. I hear ya.
I am no expert but I always took Game theory to mean that rational is the “Good”. But the theory also states that humans are Predictable? Because they are Rational? If so I disagree.
During Crisis when we need to be in control the most we are the most apt to be Lizard Brain emotional which is great if your in a being attacked by Bears scenario but not so much use in Modern Life discussing Health Care..
That’s hard for those of us that are “hunters in a farmers world”!
There’s even talk now about dirt as the new (original?) Prozac.
I am excited Ken Burns is doing his series on National Parks. Energy follows attention. The glory of Nature, a source of spirituality, is vital to the soul, and our citizens need to recognize how precious it is and SAVE IT and themselves.
echoing what cujo359 said, I was wondering how familiar you were with Jared Diamond’s work, and whether there were any subtle (or not subtle) differences between your respective theses?
Let’s talk about what we can do, Thom, to reverse the trend towards privitizing the commons.
Yesterday I heard that Diebold sold its voting machine business to ES&S. Yikes, talk about anti-trust issues.
Thanks for the answer.
I know humans are part of this world, and we benefit from nature; but, what does nature get from us that is of value? It seems like the planet could get along pretty darn well if we weren’t around.
The problem with Game Theory is that it doesn’t work. Rand had our entire foreign policy WRT the USSR and nukes running on game theory, and it led to us having over 11,000 unnecessary nuclear weapons. Decades after the US govt adopted it as “official,” they tested it more and discovered that the ONLY people who behave the way game theory predicts are psychopaths (sociopaths, really) and economists. No kidding.
Our real nature is NOT selfish. It’s altruistic. Almost all cultures, over time, become what’s known in anthropological literature as “hospitality cultures” where status is derived by giving things away and protecting others, rather than hoarding and aggression.
When I read the section about Game Theory, I was strongly reminded of the movie 1983 War Games. Data and computers without human hands = recipe for distaster.
Thom
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edit: so that everyone can follow the conversation.
I agree, I don’t understand those who insist it is out of synch with nature, it isn’t at all. It’s why we have succeeded so well as a species.
At some point change becomes to expensive for the Elite in society its not that they can’t pay/afford to change they just don’t want too because they are making good cash now.
Soo they poo poo any idea of change as unworkable, politically impossible etc and a society that makes stuff becomes a society based more and more on finance.
What factors let a society both change and recognize its problems and try and fix them?
Do we have any of these traits?
Caral – the 6000 year old city that has just been uncovered during the past 40 years – really shows this. I wrote a chapter in the book about it. It’s the FIRST “mother city” that has ever been discovered intact. A mother city is the first city where a culture moved from hunting/gathering or pastoralism into urban living. Most theories in the past are that people formed cities to be fortifications because humans are warlike. Caral – a city in Peru that was covered by sand 5000 years ago and now is just being excavated – disproves that. google “caral peru” and you’ll see some amazing stuff.
Jeeze..late as usual…sorry..
You’re ahead of the curve, Tom. Health care is just the first part of stemming the problem — treatment is not prevention.
From 1973 to 1991 the rate of invasive breast cancer in the US increased 25.8% in whites and 30.3% in African Americans (around 2% per year). It continues to rise. Until we’re willing start diverting resources to discovering why that happens and addressing it, instead of finding neat new money making treatments that will benefit the medical industrial complex, we won’t even scratch the surface of what needs to be done.
Thom said
But, those exactly the types of people that rise to positions of leadership, no? Except for the economists.
Interesting – Thom – I’d have to add my 2.5 cents that we live in the country and all my kids were raised raising livestock – clean was NOT in the vocab at our house, I’m afraid, except for ‘wash your hands’ — my kids have friends with crippling asthma — lived in the country too, but no livestock, no dirt.
Tragically, history shows that almost all societies change as the result of a crisis – usually a culture-destroying crisis. The story of the Iroquois may be an exception (they were visited by a Jesus-like figure who gave them their laws that led to the Iroquois Confederation), although many egalitarian societies have those Iroquois-like stories in them.
Where we stand now, though, is that we have the unique ability to look back at other cultures and learn from their mistakes – and their successes. The question is whether or not we will…
True but is that why civilizations fail? They can’t reach as a group rational choices at moments of Crisis? What works against Bears is not conductive to working together as a group.
Destiny?
Do you think we progressives have missed a crisis/opportunity to turn things around in the current Republican Recession or is there still time?
Very, very, very common story Toby. It’s called the “hygiene hypothesis” and is now pretty widely accepted around the world. Problem is that the idea of getting bacteria or worms freaks people out…
We need a counter-culture. You say all the fresh hells, dysfunctions that are on steroids right now, are symptoms.
I think the fleeing from accountability and law is running away from the roots which need replanting or re-securing.
I think the wave of people who pushed for Obama was a healthy movement. Obama doesn’t seem to be able to ride that wave, sadly, but the wave was a good thing. A counter-culture against a corporate culture hi-jacked world.
We need a return of and respect for the capacity for EMPATHY. We need a feminine paradigm shift!
There’s still time… but not much more than another generation…
So, what do we do now?
thom’s work is exhaustive, in all fields, history, economics, envirnment, health issues and the constitution
a more read or knowledgeable writer you will not find when discussicing our constittion and her founders, his pasion is unbelievable
I especialy love how he points out the original boston tea party was a revolt to refuser entry into this country product who’s taxes the king wanted to relax, it wasn’t a revolt against raising taxes but lowering…well done thom
I heard you on an interview yesterday telling us that if we became vegetarians for a week we would save more energy then if we all drove hybrid and used energy efficient products, that is astounding
Thom, as a Portlander and daily listener to your show, I’d like you to mention the TurdView toilets you encountered, because it was funny, of course. My mother died last year of a panoply of things, but what really brought her down was Chrohn’s. Do you think that treatments will become avialable any time soon based on these new discoveries? Or are they too unprofitable?
We need a more catchy name – my Dad, an old style (i.e., pre-antibiotics) doctor, used to talk about something for diarrhea that he called “Bavarian Sour Milk therapy.” I once asked him what it was and he said it was sour milk all right – with a little fecal matter whipped into it to re-innoculate people who’d lost all their gut flora and fauna from disease. He said that was the old fashioned East European cure — but that old style docs used it when people had the same issue from taking antibiotics. He said no one would ever drink this stuff if it had been called “Eating Shit Therapy”, but “Bavarian Sour Milk therapy” sounded chic.
Perhaps the way our society is failing is that our system of representative democracy has broken down; the corporations have short-circuited the pathways by which the popular will is expressed. Now we have a situation in which about three-quarters of the population wants single-payer national health insurance and we are assured that is the one thing we cannot have. Will we as a nation solve this conundrum or join the others on the proverbial heap?
Actually, it’s that what’s “rational” changes. For example:
When pastoral and very early city societies in the middle east were evolving in an environment just on the edge of survival because droughts and what-not came and went, battles for resources began around 7000 years ago. (See The Epic of Gilgamesh – the oldest known written story.) The tribe with the largest army of young men to fight was the tribe that survived and grew; tribes with less population growth were wiped out – literally; their genes are lost to us – and didn’t survive.
So what is the one cultural variable that induces rapid reproduction and thus large/fast population growth to stock armies? Male domination of women. Period. So it’s arguable that patriarchial societies 7000-2000 years ago were sociologically “functional” – setting aside issues of morality for the sake of discussion. But now that we have 7 billion people on the planet, having a cultural system that encourages large families is insane. And the one thing that will cause an entire country/culture to go to zero population growth IN A SINGLE GENERATION is for women to have relatively equal power with men.
Thus, for today, we need to change our idea of what’s “true” or “useful” or “functional” or even “the word of God” and reject the patriarchy in the bible (both old and new testaments) and in our business and social culture and empower women here – and even more important work to empower women all over the world.
what interview was that?
Hard to wrap my mind and heart around the statistic that 1 out of 4 Americans only are against torture of any kind.
I have this half-baked idea about our country being too large for one person to govern effectively. Unfortunately, it was sparked by reading an article by a Southern Successionist, David Livingstone, in the May 2002 issue of Harper’s. (I hate it when good ideas come from not-so-good people.)
Small is beautiful – all the ancient ideas about democracy and statehood came at a time when the largest cities had about 35,000 people living in them. What would happen if we split the country in to quadrants, each with a district government?
We are so divided politically that I don’t see consensus happening easily, about anything. What CAN we do about the divide?
Thom said something about Sociopaths and Economists maybe society protects these people where in a Hunter society they would be cast out of the village. If enough Sociopaths and Economists ( I think Thom means Chicago School not Keynesian) get together and run a society.
I think they then abuse Games Theory to Rationalize their choices/greed/short term gain.
Helminthic Therapy treatments are available now. check out http://www.autoimmunetherapies.com for example. Clinics in Mexico and Thailand, too.
ROFL – I love it!
Perhaps those cultures were able to do so because they lacked anything similar to the Republican Party.
Mommy — I’m afraid that until we can start talking intelligently to one another — all across the spectrum — nothing is going to happen.
Love your themes … respect for Nature. Respect for women.
There seems to be a “backlash” against the move to honor nature and women. The patriarchy fighting with all it’s got, to keep the toxic status quo. Minimizing, discounting. Ugly arrogance. Power, control, competition, domination. Anti-humanism. Anti-humanitarism. Exceptionalism. “Yin” is about cooperation and partnership. Overly “yang” world.
We are the Counter Culture
You can be a GUY and be Empathic. The insecurity to not be able to care for anyone but yourself and maybe your own family, ingroup shows just how weak the GOP is.
What GOP Senator recently spoke out against Empathy as a virtue?
I was actually referring to his book “ADD a Different Perspective” where he explains ADD/ADHD as neither deficit or a disorder but a ” way of being”. (that is obviously a cursory explanation of a wonderfully written book). I, as hunter, I was throwing it out there trying to be funny. Sorry.
Right now we’re at a turning point economically and politically. It’s most visible with all the giveaways that have ALREADY been done by the Obama administration to big Pharma, Insurance, and Hospital industry – as brilliantly documented by Matt Tiabbi in the most recent Rolling Stone. Our system is totally broken by big money, and that breaking is 95% the result of a series of Supreme Court decisions. And it’s about to get worse with Citizens United vs FEC this fall. Watch that one – it will change the entire course and destiny of this nation.
Which may be a good thing. When things really collapse and the Reich tries to totally take over, that’ll be when Americans rise up and change happens. I think we’re only 70% of the way there, which is why Obama is so tepid…
TCU … yes, then replace “humanism” for “femininism” if you like. But I am talking traditional “feminine” values, not biological or rather gender superiority! Many women have embraced “masculine” values (Palin for example, Hillary with her militarism), sadly. Many men have embraced the “feminine” ones.
I like that Thom talks about “feminine” values. Status of women, biological women, but also “feminine” “ying” sensibility in this world.
Any books anything online about this and other cures? It sounds interesting.
thom, this is off topic but since you were the first person who alerted me to the kock brothers, the real driving force behind the neo con movement, I was wondering if you ever did a segment on leo strauss
if not it would be a great topic on your broadcast
Which brings me to the idea of corporate personhood, the single biggest reason (IMHO) we are in such dire straights now. The idea that a non-natural person even exists is crazy, yet there you have it.
Can you talk alittle about the SC decision that allowed that to happen? Do you think that 1886 decision will be revisited/reversed?
look into oil of oregano, this is like a miracle drug, unbelievable what this oil can do, anti viral, anti inflamatory, anti bacterial
amazing stuff there
Jefferson was hugely in favor of basically most governing being done at the county or ward level. I think we’re eventually going to move back in that direction – our 535 members of congress are sold out. Again, the Supreme Court is going to drive this – which is why it’s so important to have a Dem in the White House for at least the next 15 or so years…
I was very dismayed to see Serious Newspeople (specifically Anna Marie Cox) dismiss Taibbi as an hysterical nut.
I agree and was alerted to the issue by thom himself, corporate personhood was never aserted by a court but a clerk and corporations given the right for redress and therefore the right to lobby is the biggest problem facing our republic, it gives them the ability to buy law
if we are to survive as a democracy for the people then corporate personhood must die
ot, but Thom, have you heard the new They Might Be Giants album “Here Comes Science?”
I’ve done several long rants on Strauss, and two of my Buzzflash Book Of the Month (I do a monthly book review for them) have been on Strauss over the past 5 years…
Strauss was reacting to Hitler in a tragic way…
I read somewhere recently, “we are a society, not an economy.” We need to get back to that identity. No sense of the common good.
We are hitting bottom as a nation, like an addict hits bottom. Will it be an even lower bottom or can we turn it around now?
The book the Chalice and the Blade? suggests we had a female led society in many parts of the world. Did some Crisis make a world of war necessary because nobody had enough to share?
Any idea what the Crisis was a minor ice age maybe?
Nope. Nada..just an old piece of ‘country wisdom’ from my Pappy. On the other hand, Hadassah Medical Center has had some success with Crone’s disease by re-innoculating people with gastric juices that they’ve taken from other people. And we once saved a ram we had who had gotten sick and lost all his bugs (and with 4 stomachs in a ruminant, that’s a LOT of bugs) – which caused him to go blind and loose all his sense of taste and smell. Our choice was to either hand him over to Cornell and have them try to retrieve a stomach specimen from another sheep and re-innoculate him OR, try our own version of Bavarian sour Milk therapy with unflavored yoghurt. Which we did and it worked.
Thom, to what extent did the game theory incorporate “prisoner’s dilemma?”
The respect for nature, women, etc. is in conflict with an all too pervasive attitude of I/my party/my country/my religion is better than you or yours.
You would think that people would expect religions or philosophies to appeal to their higher nature rather than their baser instincts. Is it a hold over from a scarcity mentality?
Corporate Personhood is at the core of the “Citizens United” case that’s coming before the court this fall. http://www.commondreams.org/vi…..?FORM=ZZNR is an article I wrote about it that FDL may want to reprint. Nobody was paying attention when I first started yelling about this – there will be a LOT of attention to this in a few months when they take over the last vestiges of democracy and replace it with a corporatocracy/plutocracy/kleptocracy/fascism.
Is this why birth rates are declining in Modern societies? Doesn’t the lack of opportunity to raise a child with the same lifestyle or better also play a part? By lifestyle I mean quality of life family time as well as money.
This is the move of a real bottom feeder
Now there’s a classic book
In the 60’s and very early 70’s we were on our way to a renaissance of sorts, a more egalitarian, respectful society. The business interests saw the direction things were going and put a stop to it by pouring money into their think tanks, built media empires that make such a loud noise we cannot compete.
Where is our media empire? It’s just a matter of time before they take our internets away.
Thought of Gandhi. He exemplified feminine principles. Passive resistance takes patience and time and seems so vulnerable to those “might makes righters”. The traumatizing authoritarians sweep up enablers and make use of them, like when people are taken hostage and go into Stockholm Syndrome. They identify with the aggressors against their own self-awareness. A traumatic seduction and a calling on the lower selves of others. Like that gang, peer pressure phenomenon. Us and them. Power and competition. Not partnership and cooperation.
thanx, I will look for those pod casts, I hope leo strauss is in the title so I can find them
I would also love to find your podcast on the lives of the founders, what they were and what they became
the pasion in that piece brought me to tears but I cannot find it to download
well said!
Tom, do you still have faith in the corporate Dem party? Obama has really let me down and I am now skeptical of the change from within idea if he’s so easily ignoring “progressives” (a term used too much nowadays) who may just ditch him.
with your permission here I will reprint that on our seminal page, thanx for the permission
No need to be sorry I just got something different from what you said. I walk strange paths of thought sometimes I’m terrible with directions but the path your words led to is interesting:)
What a great point
It’s going to – and has to – get a lot lower than now. Economically, we’re at the middle of a W shaped depression – it’s going to get much worse. If Obama doesn’t pull out of Afghanistan, he’s going to become the next LBJ – only without the ability to get things like LBJ’s Medicare done (LBJ really knew how to take names and kick ass). Politically it’s going to get worse. I really worry about the next 18 months, frankly.
Over the longer term, though, I have a lot of hope. And that’s why we MUST get engaged. While we can’t just abandon politics (and must continue infiltrating the Democratic Party) NOW is the time for us to build strong citizen-based non-political issues-oriented institutions/movements. That’s how the anti-abortion folks did it, for example. Ditto for women’s suffrage. Ditto for civil rights and abolition before that. Ditto for workers’ rights and unionization. We need to be building organizations that won’t become part of the old-boy’s network in DC (I fear I’m seeing this in, for example, MoveOn’s unwillingness to discuss peace issues any more, because they don’t want to lose their seat at the Obama table). We need to join and push movements.
Ouch. And leave it to McCain to take no “responsibility” for using that as poster-company. (responsibility = ability to respond). Thanks for sharing that tidbit. One blip on McCain’s radar, horrifying life adjustments for countless people.
It’s not economic in an overall cultural context, it’s all about power. To the extent that money represents power, women having more money enhances their power, but this goes way beyond that and it’s important to disentangle the two threads of thought.
OxyMoron she’s only good for gossip.
Elliot, I have a secret plan to do a series of Seminal diaries in the fall, after school starts, a kind of read-along of the book.
Crossposts are welcome at The Seminal, please repost it here
I don’t have hope for the Democratic Party per se – it’s been largely taken over by big corporations, just not so badly as Republicans. I DO, however, have hope that if WE take over the Democratic Party, we can turn it into something. And it’s not that hard to take over a political party – it just requires a movement-based and really, really, really impassioned populace. Again, look at what the anti-abortion movement and the Religious Reich have done with/to the Republican Party.
That collective ego group-think status quo is a real b*tch to penetrate. But the DFH managed to do it finally with Vietnam, though people are still ego-hurting from that and neocons wreaking their hubristic revenge.
The secret is the “good people” … will the majority do nothing which enables evil … or go proactive.
We are (as TCU said) the counter culture.
That theory about the 100 monkeys. When the 100th monkey finally “gets it” the whole monkey nation gets it. But ya gotta get the 100 monkeys to produce the collective wakefulness. Like Walter Cronkite probably was the 100th monkey for Viet Nam war.
“Thom Hartman the smartest man in the room.”
Love his radio show and his economic theory and history of politics are awesome. Few understand what Thom does. Very few.
Now when it comes to the mysteries of life not religion but the mysteries of life Thom has not done his research but then with everything he knows about the history of politics in America he may not have time.
I have been doing research into the mysteries of life and the universe for 19 years and a whole life of thinking about such things. And when I hear Thom move from politics to the mysteries of life I shutter. He is convinced he knows these mysteries and it appears he is a materialist.
Materialism taken to extremes is as tragic as religion taken to extremes. Materialism and religion has had tragic consequences for this country. It has created fear and greed and selfishness to the extreme. It has left us a very lonely and a country that is self-destructing from its own ignorance.
Thom won’t answer my emails I am sure he thinks I want to preach religion to him. It is amazing how our minds can believe we know when we do not know. Again love his show; Obama could do well to listen to Thom often.
Thom is much more spiritual than most Christians that I know and he does not have a clue that he is.
Maybe it’s time to build a NEW table?
A ROUND one,where the input is circular.
As to the remark about we are a society…I believe the corporatists and their henchmen in PR and MSM have brainwashed two generations into believing they are consumers first,and citizens,last.
We’re reinventing our website again over the next few months and will get back to those archives….
Also, check out http://www.youtube.com/thomhartmann for a lot of my rants that you can find tagged…
That’s cold.
http://history.sandiego.edu/ge…..r1936.html
this is the type of speech obama needs to give wed night.
thom turned me on to this speech this week on his show.
what a delight to hear a speech like this.
someone that understands the repubs agenda the very best ie roosevelt in 36
I guess we need something to make people sympathetic to our cause drop their Twitter and FB and get to the streets. I thought it was the economic collapse, but that hasn’t worked for our side. I have great hope, but it seems some of this technology is peddled to distract us…
oo, wonderful. I can’t wait!
Thom, can you summarize how the “Citizens United” case will cause further damage our country? Are you fairly certain it will be decided in favor of the corporations, and what can Congress, if pressured by the citizens, do to overturn it? I realize it be a long shot if Congress did anything.
Our small Dem club has not a Blue Dog in the bunch. We actually have a candidate who might beat David Drier next year (third time’s the charm?), Russ Warner. Our motto is “We are your friends, your neighbors; We are the Foothill Community Democrats”
Which would be more likely to happen first:
a)WE take over the Democratic Party or
b)enact public financing of campaigns?
Researcher – suggest you read my book “The Prophet’s Way” if you want to actually understand my thinking on these issues. You’re quite off the mark, but it doesn’t lend itself to a quick blog post and I rarely answer any listener email. I get about 500-800 listener emails a day and there’s no way to answer them. I do read the blog on the home page of my website, and I answer every single caller who has the persistence to get on the show (we only screen for drunks). I debate and discuss politics/spirituality/etc. on the air, not in email. Only have about 14 working hours a day!
Thom, how can we fight back against the amoral military machine? Obama and Afghanistan quagmire. Horrifying LBJ deja vu, you are right!
And a conscienceless corporate media, but there you go. Fortunately the internet has the power for truth to power, but I bet power is scrambling to unplug it.
I disagree with your premise. IMHO, Thom knows exactly how spiritual he is but knows religion is a cultural flashpoint and not the way to engage politically, as in strict separation of.
We have to be equally energetic on both.
But that brings us back to “Citizens United”… (next post – just a second as this will be a longer one)…
Why has the UN been so ineffective so often? Cronyism of power-nations?
My summer fantasy is that the conservatives on the Supreme Court will act as strict Constructionists and decide against Citizens United because there is no mention of corporate personhood in the Constitution.
Another parallel between current wars and Vietnam: there’s not a single member of the Bush family willing to serve.
If it’s not too late in the conversation, I could use a reminder of exactly what Game Theory is.
LBJ’s son-in-law served.
Today’s news is so bad on so many fronts – the Van Jones debacle, Diebold selling their voting machine business to ES&S, so that now the black boxes are under one company’s control, the Dem “leaders” selling their souls to corporate personhood – I think of Thom’s exhortation that Democracy is up to us. I consider on a yearly basis quitting the party, but don’t because of that.
The system seems ready to fall down the banks could fail, the financial markets can fail, we are fighting two wars and bleeding our cash to no purpose, Swine Flu, Global warming, factory farms and the International Interconnected food distribution system could spread a plague like rats on Grain ships from Egypt did during the reign of The Roman Emperor Justianian, world wide.
Any Crisis that does not destroy society we have to use as an opportunity before the GOP uses it to whip up more fear and control.
We are in the popular perception on the Right side of these issues.
What I meant was that no Bush would serve in vietnam, just like now.
Is there ANY other creature ,save man, that is perpetually at war with it’s own kind?
By its makeup, the UN was designed and organized by the ‘winners’ of WWll to preserve their power (permanent seats on the Security Council.) Unfortunately, nobody in power fully trusts democracy if it means that they might actually lose their power.
And look at how hard Cheney “fought” to dodge the draft. Didn’t he take four or five strategic actions to keep on avoiding serving?
And I look at Rumsfeld, who is willing to bald-faced lie and call those at the bottom of the military food chain “bad apples” who followed his orders, but he shamelessly denies responsibility, and he lets them languish in jail for his hubristic “gamesmanship” with people as pawns, or video mushrooms.
“Citizens United” for somethingorother did an hourlong Hillary Clinton Is The Antichrist sort of “documentary” during the primary. Their goal was to knock her out of front running in the Dem primary because they though a black man whose middle name was Hussein couldn’t possibly become president, thus assuring a McCain victory. The Federal Election Commission, citing the McCain/Feingold campaign finance reform law, ruled that the “documentary” was actually an attempt to influence a political event (an election) and thus any station that ran it would have to book it as a “campaign contribution” and pay taxes on the value of the “donation.” Which, of course, meant that no station would run it – as 60 minutes is a LOT of TV minutes when they sell even in mid-sized markets for thousands of dollars a minute.
So Citizens United took it to the Supreme Court, saying that McCain/Feingold was unconstitutional because it limited the First Amendment right of Free Speech, which the Court has ruled since 1798 to be most tilted in favor of POLTICAL free speech over all other types. The justices heard arguments this spring and should have issued a ruling in May/June. It looked, from what court-watchers said, like they were going to overturn McCain/Feingold.
But then John Roberts – a $2million/year corporate lawyer who made his living arguing in favor of corporate personhood (the notion that Corporations are entitled to Constitutional Rights just like living people, including the First Amendment right to lie, the Fourth Amendment right to hide things (privacy), the Fifth Amendment right to not tell when they’ve done something wrong (self-incrimination), and the Fourteenth Amendment right against discrimination (Wal-Mart says that when a community tries to keep them out, that’s the same thing as Woolworth’s lunch counter serving white patrons while refusing black ones) – told Ted Stevens to come back in the fall and re-argue the case in a LARGER context. In other words, instead of just blowing up McCain/Feingold, the 5 fascists on the Court are planning to blow up ALL the limits on campaign activity by corporations.
That will, instantly, turn us into a Musollini-like corporate-merged-with-government fascist state. The classical definition. And it’s coming this fall.
Well, on the good news front, we’ve made some progress with identifying conservative parasites. Perhaps in our lifetime there will be a cure.
;>)
Try putting ants from one hill onto another hill. It’s all out war. Yes, I did grow up in a small desert community.
So many people left Bushco … so many retired military finally spoke out …
so understandable to leave a crazymaking cabal, but if the sane ones leave, the crazier ones get crazier and more cocooned in their toxic projections and paranoia and power madness. Catch 22 in a way, too.
FBI tiptoed away from rendition and torture, but let CIA go the way of depravity under Bushco lawlessness and depravity.
And again, the media, the opiate of the sleepy citizenry. Distractor and provider of disinformation.
roger
Well, strict construction will only be useful to them when it suits their ends. I hold no hope they will apply it here.
And that will mean that Congress will either turn into total corporate shills and the game is over, or, like with Dred Scott, it will be the tipping point and throw us into a new paradigm, rejecting corporate power. If the case coincides with a huge drop in the stock market and a disaster with the healthcare legislation, I predict the latter.
A Lefty version of Strict Construction? Strict Construction is a great example of how the GOP/Sociopaths Rationalize what ever they want. But if we buy their argument they forget those ideas can work Our way too.
Classic Short Term thinking Scalia never thought of all the implications:) But Conservatives love to say they don’t like rushing into new things preferring instead tried and true ideas that worked in the past.
I would say they prefer ideas that get them what they want now. That and once they have a good thing going they are to lazy to jump to the next big thing.
At least until its almost to late.
@130
That’s interesting to know.
I have severe reactions to ant bites.
I’ll take your word for it. *G*
Arrrrgggghhhh! You made me look, AGAIN!!!
Although hopefully it won’t be a Civil War like Dred Scott provoked (combined with a depression that preceded the Civil War).
Severe reactions to ant bites means you need worms! ;)
Questions WRT my book Threshold?
When will I learn NOT to open your links
(Nightmares to ensue)
I was disgusted with free-speech attorney Floyd Abrams on Bill Moyer’s Journal this past Friday in his support of Citizen’s United. He argued that the more speech the better, indifferent to its source, size or strength.
God help us all.
If you read the comments in the Athens Banner Herald about our moronic Congressman Broun you’ll think we’re getting close to a civil war/secession.
Yep – just like with the Nike case, the ACLU is wrong on this. Sad…
It’s clear our military giants have not read Three Cups of Tea. If they had, things might be going differently in Afghanistan. How about a massive campaign to get the book into the hands of someone who might actually think that way about Afghanistan?
@142
“It’ hard to get a man to understand something ,when his paycheck is dependent upon him NOT understanding it.” H.L. Mencken
BTW ,Dan Abrams of MSNBC is his son,Floyd’s,that is.
That’s one of the things you recommend in the last section of the book, helping people instead of bombing them.
!!
Lots of people have said that Threshold is your best book yet, which is saying something considering the others I’ve read. How does it end, and with what prescriptions?
R U kidding?
I mention Greg Mortenson’s book Three Cups of Tea in my book Threshold. It’s brilliant. I actually had a conversation in NY about 3 months ago with a General who has a significant command in Afghanistan who’d read the book. He said to me, “I don’t think we can kill our way to victory in Afghanistan.” Or words close to that. He’s right. But it looks like he’s a lone voice, and Bush’s choice for SecDef, Gates, wants to try what the Soviets failed to do…
No questions, but a passing statement:
May it be greatly sold and widely read, and may the collective IQ and will to enact positive change rise commensurately.
;>)
thanks. communication is powerful. but statesmanship is trumped by crony gamesmanship.
US as a debtor nation will be all the more susceptible to moral compromise, not that we have been terribly moral in many ways before (look at history of our CIA, Exxon, Union Carbide, etc, etc, etc)
I just read that here in NYC High Line park esplanade was built thanks to further deforestation of precious and rare epu trees in the Amazon. But what the hey … sad oversight for sure.
I haven’t read Threshold, so I don’t know if you think that humanity needs to reach a crisis in order to radically change directions. If so, is that a variant of The Shock Doctrine?
Thanks to this interesting discussion, I bought the book! This is such a different thread from the Ridge one where Christy had to provide most of the answers as Ridge muddled.
frightening stuff there thom, we need to ring the bell loud and clear, yet the men in black are without review
Gitchee.. thanks… always wondered who said that paycheck quote. I’ve heard Gore use it.
I am going to buy copies of your book for members of my family. We have a lot of these auto-immune illnesses amongst us.
Rachel was awesome with him! Haven’t read through FDL thread yet.
What Rational Investor wants to invest in a country where Corporations have the right to lie? Hide things? right not to tell when they are doing something wrong? :)
I would love to See Jim Cramer defend this bull$!^^
The essential messages of Threshold are that we need to change our *culture* – our stories about who we all are relative to each other and to the world. The good/bad news is that culture is both the hardest (in normal times) and easiest (in difficult times) of all things to change.
It means we need to reject many of the stories that have come down to us from our religions and, oddly enough, re-embrace the notions of the Enlightenment that our country’s Founders held dear but acted out very, very imperfectly. Egalitarianism. Reducing the gap between rich and poor. Empowering all. Embracing nature. Rejecting religion in the political sphere. etc.
The book is full of examples of cultures that did – and didn’t – do this and made it or failed.
Thom:
This question dovetails with the Citizen’s United case, the FEC and talk radio.
In San Francisco one radio host is giving a candidate for federal office hours of free time on the radio. I believe he is acting as an operative for the campaign. In my research I’ve found that the talk radio hosts for media corporations use something called the “press exemption” to avoid having to list as a donation their interviews.
A station is designated a “press entity” which allows the corporation which controls it to give a candidate they choice massive donations in the form of free air time.
If right wing radio lost the “press exemption” and was forced to admit they are NOT a “press entity” they would be forced to record their donations of time.
If this Citizens United case sticks to the previous case law and doesn’t do away with any limits, I’m going to pursue this complaint and work to revoke the station’s “press exemption” in this case.
What do you think the broadcast media radio stations will do to prove they ARE “press entities” and try and prove they deserve the “press exemptions”.
What must I show to prove they are NOT and do not?
I didn’t even bother to participate.
I felt embarrassed for Ms. Smith.
His non answers sounded as though it could have been a stand in answering for him.
Soulless and self-serving,imho.
What about Spider bites?
We better take seriously encouraging the younger generation on humanist values. They can be lost to cynicism. And Obama called forth such hope, and they are reeling from that betrayal. We don’t want them to shut down.
One might argue, a bit imperfectly but cogently, that Threshold is to the light side what Shock Doctrine is to the dark side…
Huff Post has link to the ABC piece about George Will that includes a link to a letter from General Krulak, 31st Commandant of the Marine Corps who agrees.
opps no severe reaction they are just annoying.
Thank you for clearly summarizing the upcoming trainwreck and what might result. It could be a good thing for the future of this country if economy goes to hell and the Congress stands up at last, but oh, what a price we pay.
Thanks! Shock Doctrine was a very serious downer!
It must have been amazing to tour the Caral, Peru site. I thought of Paul Simon’s song Spirit Voices when I read that the archeologists have to bring native healers in each year to cleanse the site so the locals will continue to feel safe from the bad spirits who once may have lived there. Did you feel the spirits, too?
It’s hard for me to conceive of a culture without war. Dream, yes. Do you think that is in mankind’s future, assuming we can turn the handbasket around?
What a story!!! Do you assume Kennedy will go along with this view?
Spoko – the end of the Fairness Doctrine by Reagan in 1987 and the Telecommunications Act of 1996 by Clinton put the nail into the coffin of “real news” in the USA. You don’t have the law on your side in that action anymore, and even if you did the courts wouldn’t pursue it.
We need a citizens movement, and a citizens media. That’s why we’re also producing a non-profit version of my radio show and have affiliated ourselves with Pacifica for distribution – picked up 10 stations in the past 2 months. We don’t make a dime on it – it costs us, in fact, and we’re hoping to pay for it by selling podcasts – but we need to reach more people with programming that doesn’t just do suck-up interviews with corporatist politicians.
Everybody needs to support both commercial progressive talk radio and local community radio!
That’s what I assumed, but you’ve been occupied with other things (understandably) lately on your show, so Carl and Ellen’s endorsements never got fleshed out for me. (O/T: h/t to her for her pool thingy…. I’m in her fan club, too.) I’ll be walking down to Powell’s as soon as I finish “Traitor to His Class” about Roosevelt. Great clips lately….
same here
Reclaim Democracy.org has been one of my favorite sights for info on Corporate Personhood,it’s history, and the move to repeal it.
Mr. Hartmann,do you have any opinion of this organization,and are you familiar with it?
Good Point George is about the biggest Beltway Cocktail Weenie there is if he is on board to get out of Afghanistan then the GOP’s puppet masters are on board.
That leaves the NeoCons and maybe some 20%ers in support.
I will admit stay or go the GOP will say bad things about Obama regardless there is No Pleasing them.
Kennedy seems inclined to go along with Roberts. Ever since all 5 of them started attending the same hard-right WDC Catholic Church (after Scalia converted Thomas to Catholicism), he’s been voting nearly all the time with his 4 Catholic brothers. Opus Dei – even Dan Brown couldn’t have written this and have people believe it…
RC is the new Baptist in Congress for the GOP. In fact, I think they outnumber all other faiths.
Can you talk about meeting with Daila Lama?
What happened with air america?
It was a magical place, Caral. And I do think we can live with peace. The Shoshone didn’t have a word for “war” in their vocabulary. NO Native American tribe had a word for genocidal war in their vocabularies.
Problem right now is population explosion. As we hit peak oil, we need to get the world down below 2 billion people within 50 years or so, which will be really, really a challenge (although there is no shortage of diseases that are willing to help, unfortunately – 1 billion of us have TB right now, for example).
Big Media is losing advertising, Stock prices are going down assuming there is no government bailout of big media we might see the big media corporations collapse of their own weight/debt they took on to buy all the other media companies and get so big.
In the wake of such a collapse I think we might have a chance to buy media properties cheap.
Air America is still around – I’m now on their WDC station, and remain friends with them (and now affiliated).
Meeting HHDL was amazing – there’s a subchapter about it in Threshold. He cracked open my reality of “us versus them” in a big way!
All the Catholic Supremes are Opus Dei?
Is there proof that any of the Supremes are attached to Opus Dei? That’s downright frightening.
I know the folks who run http://www.reclaimdemocracy.org and they’re great!
Scalia almost certainly is and has implied as much. Probably not the others…but who knows?
In Threshold I address this issue of the toxicity of religion in a big way. It’s one of the biggest and most deadly of the stories that make up our culture that we must change. Fundamentalism in all forms is highly toxic…
Maybe the Press could ask:)
http://www.businessweek.com/bw…..nf2…
President George W. Bush has bestowed on his intelligence czar, John Negroponte, broad authority, in the name of national security, to excuse publicly traded companies from their usual accounting and securities-disclosure obligations. Notice of the development came in a brief entry in the Federal Register, dated May 5, 2006, that was opaque to the untrained eye.
Unbeknownst to almost all of Washington and the financial world, Bush and every other President since Jimmy Carter have had the authority to exempt companies working on certain top-secret defense projects from portions of the 1934 Securities Exchange Act. Administration officials told BusinessWeek that they believe this is the first time a President has ever delegated the authority to someone outside the Oval Office. The timing of Bush’s move is intriguing.
On the same day the President signed the memo, Porter Goss resigned as director of the Central Intelligence Agency . Only six days later, on May 11, USA Today reported that the National Security Agency had obtained millions of calling records of ordinary citizens provided by three major U.S. phone companies. Negroponte oversees both the CIA and NSA in his role as the administration’s top intelligence official.
…
William McLucas, the Securities & Exchange Commission’s former enforcement chief, suggested that the ability to conceal financial information in the name of national security could lead some companies “to play fast and loose with their numbers.” McLucas, a partner at the law firm Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale & Dorr in Washington, added: “It could be that you have a bunch of books and records out there that no one knows about.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And yet ANOTHER reason to dissolve corporate personhood…(Linky to follow)
I did not realize you wrote so extensively about A.D.D. Will have to explore those works. Can you say something about how you got involved in that or how to cope with it in 25 words or less? :)
I do support commercial progressive talk radio. One why I do is by going after commercial right wing radio. In 2007 I organized an advertiser alert campaign that exposed the violent rhetoric for KSFO radio hosts to their advertisers. I was successful and ABC/Disney had my blog shut down with a bogus copyright violation. Since I knew that I was meeting the Fair Use part of copyright I fought back and won (with the help of the left blogosphere and the Electronic Frontier Foundation). The station lost 28 advertisers and I’ve been told by insiders millions in revenue.
It was NOT a boycott it designed to educate the advertisers and help them choose to step away from the calls of the radio hosts calling for the death of people and groups over the broadcast airwaves.
I taught the same techniques to a group, Hate Hurts America, which used it against Michael Savage. It cost him 18 advertisers and a million in revenue.
Actively pushing back on right wing commercial radio frees up those ad dollars for radio that is not as insane.
BTW, Thom, I use your advice in Walking Your Blues Away every day. It helps me think more clearly. I’ve given it as many a gift. Thank you.
Good old “Death Squad John.” When he went to El Salvador during the Reagan regime, people began showing up with their hands tied behind their backs and bullets in their heads. When he went to Iraq, I predicted that within a month we’d see the same thing. Said so on the radio, loudly and several times. It took 3 weeks.
Amazing, isn’t it, how the Rightists go all bonkers over the Taliban and then go all Jesus-y over everything else. The Sarah Palin FB page is just astonishing. Did you know that God is an American, for example?!
@191
Intelligence Czar Can Waive SEC RulesMay 23, 2006 … President George W. Bush has bestowed on his intelligence czar, … to excuse publicly traded companies from their usual accounting and …
http://www.businessweek.com/…/n…..rss… – Cached – Similar
As we come to the end of this lively Book Salon,
Thom, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us discussing your new book.
Mommybrain, Thank you very much for Hosting this great Book Salon,
Everyone, if you haven’t bought Thom’s book yet, here is a link.
Thanks all.
Thom, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you for coming.
Enjoy your Labor Day, whatever you are doing.
Nietzsche’s idea of Priestly Morality in Foreign Policy for 2009?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master-slave_morality
sounds good. there’s more than producing those endorphins i am guessing.
Thanks on the ADD books – the latest is “Edison Gene” and I think it’s my best – and my book on do-it-yourself psychotherapy using bilateral NLP techniques, “Walking Your Blues Away.” I think these are both medical breakthrough books in the psychiatry field, and many professionals are beginning to use them or give them to patients.
I first started working on ADHD and writing about it in 1980 when I was the Executive Director of The New England Salem Children’s Village – http://www.salemchldrensvillage.org – and later when I helped start a school for ADHD kids (my son was diagnosed with ADHD) – The Hunter School – http://www.hunterschool.org. Most of the abused kids who came into Salem had ADD, and that got me on that path (and to the discovery of my own ADD)…
Thom is really, really fast.usually the questions at the end are missed. Sooo Great. Thank you. A great thread..
And example of what goes on KSFO. Here is morning host Lee Rodgers calling for the genocide of the Iraqi people.
(audio link)
Longer link
Thanks to everybody – this has been fun and interesting!
that was the big objection I had to Sonia Sotomayor, her RC background.
thanks for the wonderful salon. and the additional gift of a source for dealing with A.D.D.
Thank you to Mr. Hartmann , hostesses, and ALL here for an opportunity to depart more enlightened than when I first arrived.
Yes, Thanks Thom!
Mommybrain, this was a great discussion.
Thanks Bev, as always :)
Now back to writing my next book. (Seriously!) Have a great weekend, everybody!
I wondered about that a lot, too, Elliott.
You have helped me tremendously, thanks.
Good Talk Thom you and the Commentors here have given me a few things to think about.
WOW!
Perhaps Obama is a closet RC./s
oops – http://www.salemchildrensvillage.org is Salem’s URL.
Thanks, Raven and everybody!
I second that.
I’m praying he nevers plays the pro-Choice chip.
Re: the upcoming Citizen’s United Supreme Court case and getting the word out -
Educamate yourselves about the case, tell friends and write letters to the editor of your hometown rag (if you have one left). Write to and engage the reporters who will be covering it. People who are engaged but not necessarily wide readers read the letters.
Spocko has some great ideas on how to counter the right’s spin on pretty much everything. By politely and professionally contacting reporters with another side to a story we have an opportunity to reframe the debate in their eyes and give them another lense to look through. I don’t know if he’s posted it yet, but there should be a Seminal diary soon.
It’s vital that we are ahead of this before it’s heard.
I used to joke about Negroponte keeping a shrunken head of a real Guatemalan on his desk for a paperweight. At least I thought it was a joke.
In case you come back… I just ordered it and can’t wait to read it.
I first discovered your writings through having ADD…. thank you, thank you for all your work.
I think you’re too optimistic about how people are going to react when the Reich tries to take over. When the real Reichmeisters were issuing all the executive orders detailing the executive’s powers in case of any national security threat anywhere, there wasn’t a peep from the media or from the second amendment lunatics (that is not aimed at gun owners; I own 5 rifles and numerous handguns). But let someone “other” try changing something, and not even doing a good job at that, and the nuts come out of the woodwork spouting Bircher bullshit and showing their ignorance at every chance they get.
I think quite a few people would line up behind people like Beck, Hannity, and the other propagandists ready to kill, that’s right, kill those of us who stand up for what America should be and once was. Not the “The Way We Never Were” way of Stephanie Coontz but the way some of the people here today remember: being able to walk to school without having to worry about being kidnapped or molested, playing outside after dark and our parents knew it was OK because just as they watched out for others’ kids, those folks were watching out for us, things like that. What has been exhibited in this country during this fiasco over health care – and a debate it ain’t – is damned scary.
I remember reading Unequal Protection and just about throwing the book across the room when the part about Santa Clara was explained. Just like that everything changes, right? The Fourteenth Amendment was never implemented as it should have been to help the freedmen and poor whites, but a goddamn corporation gets whatever it wants because of some dicta, hell, not even dicta, a clerk’s writings.
We need to do something, but it’s very hard to get people on the other side to listen, to get them away from the cult of Reagan and the lies that continue to be perpetrated to keep that myth alive.
Thanks for your work.
I really think this is our only hope for the country…
Citizen media… thank you for leading the charge.
(When you commented upthread that we need to organize like the anti-choice people… my first thought was, “but, but…. they had Dobson, Limbaugh and some other nutcases leading their charge and organizing them.”
I will support your endeavors and spread the word to all my friends and family (well, those that aren’t part of the Religious Reich!)
Oh my god… I had no IDEA that the five of them belong to to a hard right wing Catholic Church… Jesus, between the C Street group, and these guys, and the military right wing Xtian power structure…
WTF?
Scalia – yes
Alito – probably, but comes not from Alito’s lips
Roberts – Mark Crispin Miller says yes – but not from Roberts himself
That’s it…maybe all that’s necessary.
Sotomayor not part of the ladies auxilliary.