[As with all book salons please be polite to our guest, and take all off-topic discussions to the prior thread. Thanks! -- CHS]
Some folks might have qualms or questions about our having a Republican on FDL for a book salon. Not me.
It’s high time we started talking to one another about the issues, rather than talking past each other in a political frenzy. Especially regarding issues which in years past were supposedly held above the political fray: national security, intelligence matters, and the rule of law.
All were previously held — if only in public lip service — as being too important to be crassly politicized. Especially in the wake of 9/11, when we saw much of the nation pull together in unity of purpose in a way that it hadn’t since WWII.
But, as Tom Ridge himself says in "The Test Of Our Times," it didn’t last nearly long enough (p. 113), if it ever truly existed as anything but a publicly painted mirage:
Many observers, including those in the media and most Democrats, believed that the Republican Party had used terrorism to leverage political support. After all, Karl Rove and the reelection team decided to ride counterterrorism and national security to victory in the 2004 reelection campaign.
Gov. Ridge goes on to say — in several places — that while he had his own qualms at times about US policies and/or individual motivations, decisions made were ultimately not politicized in his opinion.
And yet?
The results of those decisions had substantive political impact nonetheless. The back and forth on terror alert changes has gotten the bulk of the media attention on Gov. Ridge’s book, including the fact that post-election analysis showed that those terror alerts demonstrated a significant increase in presidential approval every time they happened (p. 237).
But I’d like to highlight another incident (p. 233), wherein just prior to giving a press briefing Ridge was contacted by the White House and asked to insert very specific, highly political language:
Near the end, I provided the words the White House wanted: "But we must understand that the kind of information available to us today is the result of the president’s leadership in the war against terror. The reports that have led us to this alert are the result of offensive intelligence and military operations overseas, as well as strong partnerships with our allies around the world, such as Pakistan. Such operations and partnerships give us insight into the enemy so we can better target our defensive measures here and away from home." Little did I realize that one phrase in that paragraph would become press fodder for weeks and make me a target for media criticism that I must admit was justified. . . .
. . .Our announcement, as delivered with the loaded words, was seen by some as a way to divert attention from [John Kerry's nomination at the DNC] and to reenforce in the minds of Americans that — even as the Democrats enjoyed their hour upon the political stage — only the Republican incumbent could keep America safe.
The date of this press briefing? August 1, 2004. Connecting this with politicization wasn’t exactly difficult, was it? Ridge doesn’t say from whom that request came, but it’s certainly worth asking whether it came from Andy Card, Karl Rove or elsewhere, isn’t it?
Another question left unanswered is why Gov. Ridge agreed to read such a questionable statement when he had serious qualms about it.
Hindsight being what it is, there are a number of policies and actions raised in the book which need further discussion. Including why the better road wasn’t traveled in so many places including the DHS plan for regional offices and better FEMA infrastructure locally which might have alleviated so much of the mess after Katrina (p. 218) — a policy which got shelved in early 2004.
Throughout the book, Gov. Ridge details qualms he had with any number of Bush Administration policies which were outside his Homeland Security portfolio, but which certainly impacted the issues surrounding our national security including that here within our borders.
Ridge discusses the need for better balance of civil liberties and rule of law concerns against national security decisions, and cites Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib as a huge stain on the nation’s reputation (p. 152):
The [2006 National Intelligence Estimate] . . .concluded that the Iraq War made the overall terrorism problem worse. It pointed out that the treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo fueled anti-American feeling. Our enemies will forever exploit those rare occasions when America’s actions are inconsistent with our traditional, respected values system. At minimum, they provided more grist for their propaganda mill. At worst, they were recruiting posters for terrorists-in-waiting.
Those questioning the wisdom of our policies included staunch allies, with the German Interior Minister arguing that US failure to provide some legitimate form of due process for detainees violated the very legal principles on which the US had stood (p. 146). Ridge talks about the need to strengthen global relationships (p. 186, 192) and not pull inward or spend time lecturing other nations about values which we were no longer fully following (including on torture and indefinite detention – p. 276), the disrespect for Congress and the rule of law in the FISA end-run (p. 109), and many, many others.
And yet? Despite substantive issues with these policies, Gov. Ridge doesn’t detail ever raising these qualms with the policymakers responsible for the questionable policies.
Why were they not raised for internal debate? Or were they?
This has been a troubling common theme and concern over the last few years. It raises a significant question for which there is no one, easy answer: do you stay and try to work within a department where policies are flawed in order to perhaps change those policies for the better, or do you resign trying to draw attention to wrongdoing when it becomes clear that a change will not be forthcoming?
I’ve heard this time and again from those at the Department of Justice and elsewhere. We certainly heard about it during Jim Comey’s testimony before Congress regarding the internal dissent on the FISA domestic spying policies when Comey and others at DOJ and Bob Mueller at the FBI all considered resigning en masse at one point. And there were other events as well: the internal revolt at DOJ’s appellate section, where large numbers of attorneys refused to work on briefs justifying policies which they felt were contrary to the rule of law; within the civil rights division at DOJ; within the EPA; and on and on.
This is nothing new in government. The famed resignation of two NSA employees over the bombing of Cambodia by the Nixon administration is one prominent example, as is the AG Elliott Richardson resignation over Watergate’s Saturday Night Massacre firing of Archibald Cox.
But they come down to a fundamental question: is a government employee’s loyalty to a particular president or political party? Or is it to the nation as a whole and enforcement of the rule of law?
It’s easier to answer that question from the outside when it isn’t your own job and reputation on the line, or the future of the employees who work under you. Not so easy when you are standing in the middle of a political maelstrom. And I hope that now that Gov. Ridge is standing on the outside, he might give us some thoughts on this.
With that, I open the floor to your questions and ask that you help me welcome Tom Ridge to the FDL Book Salon.



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Welcome to Firedoglake – an honor to have you here!
Greetings, Gov Ridge.
Good afternoon Governor Ridge and welcome to FDL.
Thank you for hosting this afternoon Christy.
Sec. Ridge — thank you for being here today. We appreciate your time.
I’d like to start with what I wrote above and see if you have thoughts on loyalty and service — where does it lie, to the chief executive or to the nation as a whole? I remember that being an issue during Congressional testimony on the US attorney firings, and I’d love your thoughts on that.
Gov. Ridge — What is your assessment of the Republican party these days?
How has it changed since the end of the Bush administration in your view?
Gang, Gov. Ridge is logging in and will be with us in just a sec. We had a little hitch in our giddyup which should be ready to go shortly…
Hi, Good to be here today.
Why did Homeland Security fail to take action against Saudi Arabia and Prince Bandar after they financed the hijackers and 9-11 attacks?
http://www.boston.com/news/nat…..s_in_book/
Did you know that the oily Prince was actively following the hijackers with precision. If he is correct, what US officials are to blame for 9-11?
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/…..index.html
Gov. Ridge, based on your title, why do you think we are in The Test of Our Times?. How does this “test” differ from the tests faced by all earlier generations?
Also, to follow up on that — how has it changed since you joined the GOP? I often hear Republican friends lament the focus away from fiscal issues toward social ones. I wonder if you have heard some of the same from long-timers in the party.
Gov. Ridge, do you think Osama bin Laden is still alive?
Welcome Gov. Ridge.
Would you do it all over again? If so, what would you do different?
Could you tell us if President Bush or Vice-President Cheney or Attorney Generals Ashcroft or Gonzales ever talked to you about the unitary executive theory?
Welcome Gov. Ridge.
Having served in the Army and then worked in the Pentagon for years, with the clearances that had me deal with agencies with the letter “I” in it, I’m wondering just how much cross-coordination has improved between the several agencies.
It was a very real problem, and I understand after 9/11 that that was one of the areas recognized as needing improving. But given some of the built in distrust amongst the agencies, I’m just curious as to how much things really have improved.
I’m skeptical, to say the least, although I left the Pentagon after the Reagan administration. How much improvement would you say you saw?
That question reminds me of my favorite, all-time Kung Fu Monkey post on the difference between the “greatest generation” and us.
Gov. Ridge,
I’m from your old congressional district, the pa. 3rd, in Meadville. Why was it and is it still hard to get your name off the Do Not Fly List when the TSA obviously have the person confused with someone else with the same name?
Welcome to the Lake, Gov Ridge. Thank you so much for coming.
I was speaking with Rob Lorei (Cathedral Prep Class of ‘72), the News Director for WMNF Community Radio Tampa about your appearance here today. He couldn’t join us but sent me the following questions for you. He also stated that he’d like to have you on his show.
1. Does torture work; what, as a former soldier, would you think if some foreign power waterboarded our troops, put them in stress positions, sexually humiliated them, and interrogated them after depriving them of sleep? Would that be justified?
2. Is waterboarding counter to the Geneva Conventions?
3. Are these radical Muslim groups simply evil as George Bush suggested – or are they angry over US foreign policy? And would changes in US foreign policy lessen the degree of radicalism?
4. Lastly, former VP Cheney says terrorism against the US was thwarted by torture. Can you verify that? Was this terrorism to take place within the US?
As a resident of PA, I can say that Mr. Ridge was not a bad governor. That said, I believe today’s Republican party has become so rancid with racism, white supremacism, bigotry, homophobia and anti-science anti-intellectualism, that I think it demands that all reasonable Republicans resign from the party. And I just wanted Mr. Ridge to hear that.
Btw, Gov. Ridge — please answer questions as you can get to them. We tend to be a lively bunch. But we also understand that thoughtful answers take a little time in the typing, and promise to be patient.
This happens to all of our guests, I’m afraid — we’re political junkies. Just don’t let it swamp you at the outset.
Again and again in reading the book, these are the questions that went through my head.
Secretary Ridge, you write about the controversy about you being allowed (or not) to testify before Congress (pp. 92-93):
In other words, Card and that One Person decided that preserving/extending executive authority outweighed the security needs of the US that would be enhanced by creating an atmosphere of cooperation with Congress. Have I got that right?
Whether you saw your loyalty to the president or a political party or the constitution or the rule of law, I think you’ve made it crystal clear where the White House thought your ultimate loyalty should be.
Thank you for being here today Governor Ridge, and being open to discussing these questions with our community. We really appreciate your willingness to do so.
Your wonderful questions gives me pause to reflect on my entire career of public service that has consumed most of my adult life. It is a worthy, noble and necessary pursuit regardless of whether it effects elected office or not. Regardless whether my service as an infantry soldier, Prosecutor, Congressman, Governor, Assistant to the President or Secretary, I have worked to remain loyal to the principles that I have learned throughout life, including hard work, tolerance, integrity.
Hi Governor
Do you think that there is any future for moderates in today’s republian party? What do you make of claims that the Republicans are becoming exclusively a regional all white party posturing to the most ignorant americans?
You mention frequently in the book that policies such as torture and indefinite detention cause substantial problems in US relations with other nations — and internally as well. Could you elaborate a bit on why so few in GOP leadership have been unwilling to step forward and say that publicly?
I’ve heard it countless times privately from Republican friends here and in DC, but very rarely is anyone willing to take any public stand. It’s disheartening, frankly.
Governor Ridge… hi. Welcome to The Lake. I’m an airline pilot, and I have to say that there is no more useless organization than the Transportation Security Administration. The TSA, otherwise known by pilots and others as “Thousands Sitting Around” are perhaps the most useless appendage and drain on our public funds ever.
What do they do, exactly? The screening they do are not worth much, each TSA group at each airport seems to be allowed to make up their own rules. I have been told that as “crew” I could do certain things at some airports and not at others. (Taking off shoes while in uniform is one example). Even things like metal detectors are set at different sensitivities in the same airport (O’Hare is a good example).
Other than continuously maintaining an atmosphere of “be afraid” what do they do? Not very much as far as I can tell. Why were they given so much authority and “power” when they can in fact do little more than harrass and belittle Americans who are excercising their constitutional rights to their property and possessions.
Should they be disbanded at some point? Or at least downsized/reorganized?
Lastly why do we have “secret” watch lists? Why is it so hard for anyone to get information about their status and challenge it if it’s incorrect?
Thanks
Peterr, I’m glad I wasn’t the only one having that thought as I was reading it. There were so many times I wanted to know what happened next, but it wasn’t included. I do understand why on some levels — a president has to get some advice and have some policy discussions with subordinates without fear of a glaring spotlight on that process so that they get honest discussion and not posturing for posterity’s sake. So being the person to step out of the “cone of silence” (to borrow from Get Smart) is not who someone who has served at that level ever wants to be. Not if they intend to try and continue to make an impact for good in the future instead of burning bridges for good.
But that doesn’t mean I’m not still wondering about several “an then what happened” questions…
Thank you for this; you’re describing something essential to public service.
You wrote:
So how bad was the pressure to be loyal to the president to the detriment to loyalty to the people and the constitution?
I have been and will always be a proud member of the Republican Party. I am disappointed that while we controlled the Presidency and Congress prior to this administration that we abandoned some of our basic principles as they relate to fiscal policy.
We oversaw huge growth in government, almost without limit and we failed to address effectively problems associated with energy independence and frankly, some of the challenges associated with providing healthcare coverage around the country.
Please don’t interpret this as an enforcement of the massive government overhaul of the existing system.
Finally, until more individuals in my party are willing to accept the notion that dissent does not signal disunity, unity does not require unanimity of thought we will struggle to recapture many potential supporters that abandoned us in 2008.
Mr. Ridge, do you think the border can be sealed?
One of the funnier moments in the book is when Gov. Ridge recounts getting a call from Sen. Ted Kennedy after Kennedy has been stopped several times at airport checkpoints while traveling to and from DC. Sen. Kennedy ended the call with “Now I know that some in your party think I’m a political terrorist…”
It was an awfully poignant story to read this week, I have to say — and a good laugh, too.
Welcome Governor Ridge, and thank you for appearing today.
We were paying very close attention to your interview with Rachel Maddow. The civil conversation you engaged in was admirable, and I personally appreciate your willingness to stay in studio for some very tough questions.
And as we look at the way politics and public policy are commonly argued today, we hear Obama and Democrats = Hitler, and Obama and Democrats = Socialists, and Obama and Democrats = Fascists, and Obama and Democrats want to kill your Grandmother and veterans and the disabled, and Obama and Democrats this, and Obama and Democrats that.
Do you have a prescription for leveling out this ghastly furor coming from Republicans? Because it is coming from Republicans.
Your accusations that Americans were responsible for the horror of 911 are simply untrue and deserve no further comment.
hello governor and welcome to the LAKE!
we know as a fact, quite oposite media spin,there was no failure of intel regarding the attack on 9/11
the presidnet was hand delivered precise intel, telling him when (within months), where (washington and new york) what the exact targets would be, (political and financial institutions) and how it would be done, (highjacking commercial airlners) and of course the weapons (used as missiles)
intel this precise is almost impossible to get and the intel community did an EXCELLANT job, the president was told this was SUCH a current concern that “everyone’s hair was on fire”
more important;
the president had an EXCELLANT template, one the previous administration layed out, if you read the 9/11 report clinton was given a very similar pdb but instead of taking vacation clinton mobilized every agency, put air traffic control on high alert, alerted local authorities
that event was averted
so this president had the intel, had the notice of how iminent the threat, had the means to avert the attack
he did nothing, took vacation
your thoughts please
in addition;
everyone knew with no doubt there was no threat in Iraq, the threat was from afghanistan, the president diverted vital national security assets so that he could have war in a country he was told by his own aids and reports did NOT support al qaeda and did NOT have weapons of mass destruction
links about but I fear I have no time to post them for you but your thoughts there too
and finally
do you believe torturing suspects creates more terrorists and terrorist events, it recruits insurgents, turns sympathisers into enemies, moderates into extremists and extremists into heroes in the eyes of those we are supposed to be ” winnig their hearts and minds”
I hope this is not too confrontational not too verbose
Gov. Ridge, one of the actions from your time as head of DHS that you have been abused for is the recommendation to keep duct tape and heavy vinyl for protection from CBN type weapons.
Was there something behind that as it seemed to be way too much of an attempt at distraction from other problems.
Welcome Mr. Governor. I am a HS senior and my brother is an army truck mechanic in Afghanistan.
Do you really think that the war in Afghanistan and the occupation of Iraq will make us safer? Aren’t they just getting more people in those regions angrier at us?
This is a fugue brought on by the horror of the events of that day, and very sad.
Christy, I had heard that story before… Ted Kennedy once in a talk told of his getting stopped by security at the airport, and how it was so silly that he was not “known” by TSA but matched a person on one of those “watchlists”.
ALPA, the Pilot’s Union has a bumper sticker that pilots stick on their flight kits that say “Airline Pilots: trusted in the cockpit, but not at security”. I mentioned the 20″ crash-axe in the cockpit to a new TSA screener once and thought he was going to arrest me for mentioning it.
Sir, he didn’t say Americans. He said US officials failed to stop it, and in that way they are to blame. Americans themselves were victims.
Let me apologize for that on behalf of the enormous majority of visitors of this site.
One of the things that Gov. Ridge talks about in the book is how we may not be using technology most efficiently at border checkpoints and entry points in airports, for example. He touts a biometrics trial run that they did during his tenure at DHS.
I know how easy it can be, for example, to pull up instantaneous data using fingerprints and other identification measures (Including SSNs and other data) from my time as an assistant prosecutor. But I’ve always been edgy on civil liberties grounds about a wholesale retinal scan system — seems a little Phillip K. Dick for my taste without safeguards out the wazoo.
It’s funny, because I was watching an HB documentary on Sen. Kennedy this week wherein they played some of the Nixon tapes. Pres. Nixon was trying to use the FBI and other means to get “the goods” on Ted Kennedy and talking about it with Haldeman and Erlichman. Which I think ought to be a cautionary tale about whether such technology in the hands of someone with few scruples would mean if it could be used for political advantage.
It’s tough — how far is too far in civil liberties terms? Yet how far is not far enough in terms of security? Gov. Ridge talks about that risk management balancing test on a number of issues, actually.
Sec Ridge thank you for coming.
You have stated that there was no consideration given to politics when raising threat levels. If this is the case why was an analysis of the impact done and dept. secretarys made aware of it?
Gov. Ridge,
Thank you for being here.
Do you think it’s a radical idea to think that there were, in the end, no good reasons to go to war in Iraq?
I don’t have your book yet but I thought I heard you say something of that nature on one of the shows you have been on recently.
It appears that the GOP is led Rush Limbaugh, who brokers no criticism and politicians who dare speak ill of him darn near trip over their own shoes in their haste to apologize and backtrack their critical words. Who do you see as the leader of the GOP?
well put, Kassie.
Please don’t interpret this as an enforcement of the massive government overhaul of the existing system.
Would I be correct in interpreting this as a statement against changing the health-care system? Do you see the country’s health-care system as affecting national security?
Finally, until more individuals in my party are willing to accept the notion that dissent does not signal disunity, unity does not require unanimity of thought we will struggle to recapture many potential supporters that abandoned us in 2008.
So will you be speaking up when Olympia Snowe breaks with *all* of the other R’s, and supports some sort of watery change in health care and Michael Steele denounces her the next day?
Christy there was a story the other day about someone in Florida who has no arms, and who couldn’t cash a check because he has no fingerprints to give. They have to have multiple ways of doing things that are fair to everyone.
You have asked a wonderful question. When ever America’s security and way of life is challenged our government and our citizens are called upon to overcome what ever the enemy has done or is trying to do. As we respond to whatever that challenge, we are all called upon to make decisions to protect tangible (people, places, things), intangible ( civil liberties , privacy, our unique value system). That historic test is more complicated than every before since the citizens in the streets of America have become part of the battlefield.
Thank you for you response. You may have noticed these were not my “accusations”. I did not say Americans were involved. These are quotes from Sen. Graham and the Prince.
Senator Graham and the Prince also do not accuse Americans.
Then Mr. Ridge, you do not believe Saudia Arabia financed 9-11? Why would you say I accused Americans?
I visited the WTC site in early 2003. What I saw then made me think “surgical strike.” It was mind-boggling to me that those buildings fell into their footprints without doing significant damage (falling on) the immediate surrounding area.
I never felt unsafe after 9-11, though my friends in NYC and from the neighborhood of the towers certainly had PTSD from the experience.
I understand there are people then and now who hate the US. I can understand that.
But the War on Terror seems to me to have been largely a political gambit.
I’m curious about the cover photograph. When was it taken, and what do you try to convey with that picture of yourself?
Yes.
Correction, I guess Prince Bandar did accuse Americans of being responsible for 9-11.
Since I cruised thru checkpoints on the border recently because I’ve got a really TX accent, and can see the lands running off into infinity there, I see it as ridiculous as Ted Kennedy said, to build an eight foot fence when a ten foot ladder is right there.
I can’t speak to Gov. Ridge’s thoughts on policy and legality — although he does at several points in the book say that he felt that the policy decisions caused harm to the US over the long haul and that legally they raised significant questions from our allies in both Germany and Spain.
But I can tell you that he talks extensively about the need for more well-rounded policy initiatives with Muslims and others around the globe that include developmental aid, support for real democracy in countries where that hasn’t been our priority and other diplomatic initiatives. That changing minds is going to require us educating ourselves and reaching out instead of merely issuing orders.
Secretary Ridge, I have not yet read your book (I will, just give me some time), but I do wonder whether you feel putting FEMA into the Dept. of Homeland Security was a good idea, or whether it crippled FEMA without strengthening DHS?
Haven’t heard that story, but as a weird science aside, they can do footprints, too. Your footprint is as unique as your hands — and they can go back to a birth certificate print to determine identity if necessary.
Just another weird fact brought to you courtesy of forensic evidence reading.
From the post intro:
I ’second’ that notion.
Mr. Ridge, thanks for coming to answer questions at FDL.
After 911, I believe all Americans desired an opportunity to help their country in the aftermath of that horrible attack. I will always be grateful that my friend, the President, gave me a specific job to do so. I would definitively say “Yes, Mr. President”, but if you have an opportunity to read my book you will discover that there are a couple of thing I would have done differently.
My brother, who is in Afghanistan with the army, is part of a project to bring school supplies to schools in Afghanistan. Shouldn’t we do more of that and less bombing and shooting?
One thing that Gov. Ridge doesn’t say here is that he grew up in a mixed household: his mom was a Republican, but his dad was a proud Democrat.
Please tell us where, in your opinion, the breakpoint is between maintaining civil liberties and the risk of a terrorist attack on US soil.
Is there a particular liberty you would not forgo, even if it resulted in a vulnerability to attack? Is not the system predicated on the maintenance of those liberties, regardless of the vulnerabilities? And is the phrase “The Constitution is not a suicide pact” overused and politicized?
They did not.
Thank you for being here today Gov. Ridge.
What are your thoughts as a former Secretary of Homeland Security about the suggested violence from people who support the Republican agenda?
How is that Anne Coulter can joke about assassinating a Supreme Court justice, and Glenn Beck can joke about poisoning Speaker Pelosi, yet someone gets arrested at Bush rally wearing an anti-wart t-shirt?
With the tenor of hate and suggested violence that we have seen recently coming from your side of the political aisle, how much of a threat do you see for domestic terrorism?
I escorted my niece to the airport last year for her return trip to NE. At the last minute I thought to ask if I could wait with her at the gate. They gave me a pass and we successfully negotiated security.
I was horrified to find, when I got back to my car, that I had one of the giant Leatherman tools with 5″ blade in my purse and even more horrified to realize TSA didn’t even see it.
…we are all called upon to make decisions to protect tangible (people, places, things), intangible ( civil liberties , privacy, our unique value system). That historic test is more complicated than every before since the citizens in the streets of America have become part of the battlefield.
May I ask your opinion as to how well your party did between 2001 and 2008 at protecting what you call “the intangibles”?
The question of politicizing the raising and lowering of the terror alert levels has gotten much attention in the media, but I was surprised at one other passage that seems to have been missed.
Secretary Ridge, you use the flap over the Dubai Ports deal as “one of the most vivid examples of politicizing homeland security” (noting also that it was after you had left office). You describe how GOP Rep Peter King of NY seized on defense and security issues as “one tactic that was still working for Republicans,” and also how Democratic Senator Chuck Schumer’s protest ended the deal (p. 119):
“At its own game” seems to be a stunning admission, Mr. Secretary. The vividness of the Schumer example would seem to be that for once, the Bush White House got beaten.
When progressives have raised specter of the politicization of national security, it often generated a “How dare you even suggest such a thing!” response from republicans, especially those in elective or executive office.
However, when a Republican such as yourself state so forthrightly that this is what the administration’s game was, that’s entirely different. What has been the reaction of your fellow republicans to your statement that the White House was playing games with national security for political purposes?
Even the DFH’s here were amenable to setting aside our differences with the republicans. Sadly, your former boss squandered all that good will here and abroad by behaving like a spoiled, ignorant child with a “We’re Number One” foam finger and a Vice-President hell-bent on making war at any cost.
Did you and Colin Powell ever privately discuss using your personal credibility and “gravitas” to resign and bring the lies to an end? Powell by all accounts was conflicted about his UN speech, were you similarly conflicted about the politicization of the DHS enough to quit and denounce it or did you wait the beltway “suitable period” before doing so? Many folks say that Powell could have averted the Iraqi invasion by speaking out, do you think that’s true?
Gov. Ridge talks quite a bit about the FEMA/DHS merger and a potential policy reform that he and his staff tried to initiate nationwide. It included some regional offices to better coordinate on the ground with local and state authorities so that FEMA would have an already existing relationship with them and know where the strengths and weaknesses were instead of coming in on the back end and not knowing which gaps to fill.
But the policy never got implemented. And then Katrina happened…
One of the biggest challenges associated with creating the Department was establishing the kind of relationship with those agencies you mentioned that guaranteed full disclosure of the relevant information we needed to do our job. With your experience during the cold war, you understand completely that the culture of the time limited communication around a “need to know basis”. We bumped up against that mindset that we felt the nature of the new enemy and the engagement of state and local personnel, as well as occasionally the public, our culture and our job required as “need to share”. I think we made significant progress in that area and and the book chronicles the institutional resistance to those changes as well as evidence that change actually occurred. Finally, I doubt whether the information sharing is to the point were you and I believe it needs to be, but I have no doubt that progress has been made.
Secretary Ridge, in your years of public service, did you ever encounter a “Sophie’s Choice” between principle and policy? Sometimes, I disappoint myself. Have you ever done so?
Secretary Ridge,
Did you feel free as a Cabinet member to offer your advice without regard to how it would be received, or did you feel that you had to moderate your advice so that it fit closer to the Administration’s position?
Sec. Ridge, thanks and kudos for being here. What are your thoughts on the “controversy” re: the President speaking to school children on Tuesday?
Just a quick comment that I respect and appreciate this entire comment, especially:
And at this point, I also put this as a ‘national security issue’, because when a nation can’t have a civil conversation that generates trust and general agreement, it’s in trouble.
Andy Card’s comment (noted in comment @20) is a stellar example of the problem, IMHO.
I know it is no consolation to you that even the late Senator Kennedy had difficulty from time to time, it took a direct phone call from me after a humorous and cordial phone call from him to remove his name. I believe if you check the TSA website there is now a procedure to take care of the problem you have encountered. I enjoyed representing your District for 12 years.
Thanks for your time here today Gov.,
Do DHS employees receive training and equipment to assist in their response to CBN situations. I bring this up because in the wake of 9/11 NY’ers, first responders and volunteers from across the nation were not, I believe, given the whole story re: air quality at the WTC site and the surrounding area. These shortcomings cannot happen again. Thanks in advance.
Thank you for taking the time to be here, and responding.
I’m sure it was a tough sell, just remembering some of the old rivalries I experienced gives me headaches at times. I guess I was hoping 9/11 would’ve put an end to it, since even during the cold war we were all on “the same team.”
It’s good to know progress was made, and I hope progress continues to be made. And I will give your book a read.
Ah, but youfailed to respond to the first question, Mr. Ridge. The Saudis were in large part financing the hi-jackers. What is your response?
Speaking of first responders, one thing that Gov. Ridge makes clear in his book that ought to be very troubling for all of us is that the issue of broadband communication among various responder branches has not yet been fixed. And that the appropriate equipment for communication still isn’t in their hands.
That is seriously unacceptable. I say that as someone who worked with police officers day in and day out for years — those folks put their butts on the line along with fire departments nationwide, and deserve a lot better than indifference and neglect on an issue that important.
I believe waterboarding to be torture, it is wrong, and I’m told generally ineffective. I do not believe that on the few occasions that it was used in the aftermath of 911, that the individuals so involved should be prosecuted. President Obama and his team of advisers are now in a position to set any guidelines that they feel are appropriate and effective to extract information from individuals that will keep America safe.
Tolerance is a virtue.
heh. L’il Tommy is a momma’s boy. Just kidding Mr. Secretary Sir. Please recall the black helicopters from my current location.
Are you saying that PDD 39 and it’s annex was inadequate to deal with the threats?
If so, how?
Tolerance of racists is a virtue? Seriously?
Sec. Ridge,
Thank-you for being here today. Re your statement here: “I believe waterboarding to be torture, it is wrong, and I’m told generally ineffective. I do not believe that on the few occasions that it was used in the aftermath of 911, that the individuals so involved should be prosecuted.”
First, I’m glad you see waterboarding for the torture it clearly is, but do you indeed consider the waterboarding of just one man 183 times as a ‘few occasions’?
Second, you don’t believe those involved should be prosecuted, what about those whose confessions were obtained through torture?
Thanks again for your time, sir.
Given what we now know about the so-called ‘experts’ who were brought in to supervise the ‘enhanced interrogation’ procedures, do you think that FBI specialists and other actual experienced interrogators should have been employed instead?
Just a reminder folks to keep it polite and take any off-topic stuff the the prior thread. Gov. Ridge has a limited time to answer questions and I’d like them to be on-topic to the extent possible. Thanks!
There was a recent report out of the Obama administration that the FBI’s interrogation unit has recently won the internal debate on that in terms of internal policy setting. Will see if I can dig up a link on that for you…
Hard to believe; and frankly, disgraceful.
Mr. Ridge, thank you for taking the time to join us for this discussion. Just slightly more than 3,000 people were killed on 9/11 in what was a criminal act, albeit is a heinous one but a criminal act nevertheless; and for that we have gone to war, sacrificed much of the fourth amendment and done serious damage to the 5th, 6th and 8th as well. We have a global war on terror and our government seems to operate in a constant state of abject fear and paranoia. There are 4 to 5 times that amount of gang related deaths per year in the United States. Should there be a “war on gangs”?
And more importantly, why shouldn’t all of the “enhanced” modalities such as preventative indefinite detention, warrantless wiretapping, invasive desk warrants such as national security letters and application of torture permitted and endorsed by the Army Field Manual, including Appendix M thereto, be used on gang violence, organized crime, domestic violence and other common crime in the United States? Such modalities are either legal and permissible or they are not, right? It would serve to “protect” the American public, which was the rationale for the need on terror cases, right? As an American citizen, I am light years more likely to be killed or injured by a traditional criminal act, should you be protecting me from that too if you are going to presume to do so for “terrorism”?
Great questions!
The “behind the scenes” chapter lays out much of this, and quite well. I was intrigued by this description of the relationship of DHS to agencies like the CIA and FBI (p. 131):
In order to review intelligence with a fresh eye, that requires that DHS be given not simply conclusions generated by others (CIA, NSA, DOD, etc.) but access to some if not all of the background and even raw intelligence materials at times. Without background and/or raw data, DHS would be incapable of bringing any freshness to the task of evaluation.
With that in mind, I’m curious: at what point did you become aware of the Yoo and Bybee memos that authorized “enhanced interrogation techniques” to generate intelligence from Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere? Did the knowledge that intelligence came from use of these techniques cause you and DHS to view this intelligence as more or as less credible?
Whether the President is Republican or Democrat, I believe the President, consistent with the Constitution, is entitled to pull together a small staff to offer advice and counsel in specific areas and to be answerable to him alone. I believe Andy Card acted appropriately and I agreed at the time and still do, I believe the President sought to preserve that same opportunity for future presidents who would also pull together a small team of advisers. If i recall correctly President Obama has people serving in similar positions including, Energy and Cyber. As you know, once it was announced that I would be nominated as Secretary, and in that capacity have considerable influence over the pending budget prepared by the Executive Branch, I was directed to testify and happily complied.
I do not believe that on the few occasions that it was used in the aftermath of 911, that the individuals so involved should be prosecuted.
I presume that you’re aware this the United States prosecuted Japanese soldiers as war criminals for using water-boarding. Why in the world would you think that, if *we* do it, it should not be prosecuted? If prosecution were to happen, would it not help strengthen our perception throughout the rest of the world – and thus be an aid to national security?
President Obama and his team of advisers are now in a position to set any guidelines that they feel are appropriate and effective to extract information from individuals that will keep America safe.
I do not understand this statement in the least. Are you trying to say that since the Bush administration broke various international and domestic laws in their treatment of detainees, and have so far gotten away with it, that Obama should really feel free to carry on with those practices?
Didn’t you say upthread that you were a prosecutor at one time? During that period, did you feel so free to pick and choose which laws to enforce, and which to ignore?
Well done.
I’ve wondered about the legal end of that for DOJ prosecutors once the OLC memos became common knowledge. If there were any cases proceeding on domestic prosecutions that resulted from intel gathered using legally questionable interrogation techniques (i.e. torture), that evidence would be thrown out in court under US law.
As a prosecutor, that has to be such a nightmare, because how could you know? That happened recently in a DC Cir. habeas review of a Gitmo case, wherein a forced confession was thrown out because it was obtained under substantial duress and the remaining evidence was so scanty as to be nonexistent. It’s your worst nightmare as a prosecutor to have to take over a case like that with the mess already in place.
Sorting all of that out is going to take enormous work. And it’s already been years in the making…
If you happen to watch the Rachel Maddow Show a couple of nights ago, I hope you saw two individuals with strongly held views, often in contrast to each other, have a civil and respectful discussion on several subjects. I believe most Americans would like to see more of those exchanges in the world of politics and journalism.
Tom Ridge,
Your presence here today affirms that we’re all in this together.
To which I say, baloney.
You are part of the power structure.
I’m not.
My message: Find another job or another message.
Welcome Gov. Ridge. What should we do now to make America even more safe, without giving up our Constitutional and God given rights. You seem to believe, unlike some on the edges, that it is possible and necessary to do both. I’m not asking about the past. I am most intrerested the the second part of my question, how we can protect our rights, even the ones that are not as popular as free speech. Thank you.
Governor Ridge, recently there has much discussion in the press and in Congress about the potential threat of militant right wing groups who may choose to embrace terrorism. I believe a report was issued by the Dept of Homeland Security on that subject but had to be retracted after Republican complaints. As former Secretary of Homeland Security, I would like to hear from you your assessment of the potential risks to our safety from such homegrown right wing extremists. Thank you.
Afternoon, Governor. Yes, polte discussion and not calling horrible names are very welcome.
However, actual answers rather than spin and evasion would also be appreciated.
Frankly, I don’t understand why you agree that waterboarding is torture, but that the perpetrators (and I include the leaders and lawyers who twisted themselves into pretzels to “authorize” it) shouldn’t be prosecuted.
As was mentioned above, we prosecuted as war criminals Japanese who committed such actions against our soldiers.
Why should this rule be changed for Bush administration “authorizers?”
a particular pet peeve of mine governor Ridge, the term “homeland”, this is appaling to me, it calls to us memory of agencies we fought against
we are not “the homeland” nor “the mother land” nor “father land” we are America, it is “American security” and “national security”
I sure wish the term “homeland” was stricken from anything concerning our government
In light of the issue of the manipulation of the terror threat levels for political purposes, Scott McClellan was sought out by Politico for his views on your book’s claims.
I looked through the thread, and I have not seen this brought up today, so I was wondering if you could provide some closure on the issue of your initial statement regarding political manipulations of the terror threat level, and subsequent attempted retraction. And, what is your response to the above statement by Scott McClellan?
Thank you…
Gov. Ridge, many of us watched the Rachel Maddow show and saw exactly that. Would that it happened more often. Thanks for your willingness to engage.
She’s good, that Rachel.
Ronald Reagan is often quoted as having concluded that if you agreed with him 80% of the time you were a darn good Republican. If the party fails to embody that principle which basically says that there is more that unites us than divides us I believe our ability to capture independents and moderates, both R and D is limited.
Yes, yes, yes. I’m appalled to realize I’m almost used to it.
How about respectfully responding to those here who asked about Saudi financing of 9-11, which might be considered important.
Not the way they are going about it today.
Not Gov. Ridge, but the Politico ought to have read the whole book. Gov. Ridge talked about having questions about individual motivations in asking that the threat level be raised close to the 2004 election — but says expressly in a couple of places that the threat level itself couldn’t be raised without agreement by several department heads at once, and that at no time did he ever see it raised without substantial justification for its having been done.
The particular passage in question that has gotten the most media play talked about Sec. Ashcroft of DOJ and Sec. Rumsfeld of DOD pushing for the threat level being raised with objections from Ridge and others at the meeting. But the actual threat level never got moved in that instance because there was not agreement to do so (this was right after the Zawahiri tape surfaced in October 2004 — I’m sure we all remember that). Discussion of this occurs around p. 238 of the book, if I remember correctly.
It’s too bad we all couldn’t engage each other ,with such respect and deference to the others opinion
I was beginning to wonder if civil discourse was possible without shouting at each other
surely you know it was hundreds of times not a few occasions?
what about those who fasioned the programs that ignored law and condoned torture, do you believe those people should face the bar of justice?
do you think there are those above the law?
let me ask something else
everyone knows one of the most important tools for national security, prosecuting a war and seeking peace is the ability to broker treaties
what do you think of people who abdicate treaties fashioned by prefvious adminsitrations and prior congress, promising by the full faith of our government the terms set there in, doing so by “redefining” time honored definitions of things like torture?”
wouldn’t you say that would harm our ability to broker future treaties or be seen as an honest broker in international affairs and therefore harm our own interests in national security?
Frank, that isn’t addressed anywhere in the book.
Rachel Maddow is actually a journalist, unlike most of the posers who talk daily on TV.
Mr. Ridge, given that yu feel that people should not be prosecuted for using water torture (183 times on one prisoner, 83 times on another plus those we don’t know about yet) only “on a few occasions”, do you then believe that in retrospect, the Japanese soldiers that practiced it should have been released and allowed to resume their lives?
I believe Mr. Ridge might be the republicans best hope for a presidential run in oh twelve
for that person to be successful they are going to have to engage those their party disagrees, they are going to have to mend the great devide created by rove/Cheney and they are going to have to kick out the neo cons who have highjacked a once proud party and reclaim it for those who really are concervatives
concervatives who actually want to concerve the rule of law, national reputation, the local economy, our armed forces and our position as fair brokers
sadly, that party is near extinction, maybe Mr ridge can turn course for them
I don’t think you would be comfortable flying an airplane if the procedures today were those of September 10, 2001. TSA was an organization that Congress insisted be pulled together in 6 months, they strive everyday to become more effective and consumer friendly. Your concern about inconsistency across the broad is a valid one and I agree with your assessment. I agree that procedures should be identlical at each site. The system will be more effective as soon as the technology of detection become improved. I for one, also believe that the pilots and crew through a pre-screening process, should have easier access to the aircraft, even though I have noticed you normally go the head of the line to board.
Thank you, BMAZ!!
FunnyWheelieDiva
Yes, and promote “tolerance” of racism, white suprematism, bigotry, homophobia and anti-science anti-intellectualism. Some big shoes to fill!
well done, I sure hope Mr Ridge can get to that question before he leaves
Good afternoon, and thank you for being here, sir.
If you had the power to order all things as you would at DHS, what changes would you make?
And the continued reluctance of this Administration to deal with the mess (other than to go to court and argue the previous admin’s position) is NOT helping.
Thanks for hosting this, Christy. Thanks for being here, Sec Ridge.
FWDiva
Yes, I hope, Governor, you understand that to many of us here at Firedoglake, that is a question of great magnitude.
We really do see a failure to prosecute as a failure of our nation’s principles, and I don’t see how to interpret it any other way. I hope you will explain your answer.
In the next to the last chapter of the book, Gov Ridge lays out a number of modifications, including the FEMA region plan that I talked about briefly in the post as well as a number of cyber and ID measures to take for security purposes. He talked a bit about the alleged Russian shut-down of things in Estonia as incentive to take it seriously.
As I recall, Richard Clarke talked about that as well when we had him here for Book Salon. Seems like something we ought to be working on a bit more vigorously.
great post bmaz, as usual but a slight correction;
there is no war on terrorism, terrorism is a tactic not an enemy, we have a war against a few groups who use terrorism as their tactic since they do not have the assets to wage against us with conventional methods
there is no such thing as a war on terror, it can’t exist, it’s like having a war on retreating, a war on advancing, a war on planning, a war on deception
there cannot possibly be a war on terror it can’t exist, that’s one of the problems here
There’s another, earlier passage that speaks about the threat levels. On p. 114, Sec Ridge wrote: “In spite of allegations of playing politics, as time went on, our office was more often than not the most reluctant to raise the threat level.”
This implies that the reverse was also true — that as time went on, other offices were more often than not more forceful at pushing to raise the threat level.
Secretary Ridge, would you care to name those who were more forceful in pushing to have the threat level raised, despite the reservations of you and your DHS colleagues? If you were “the most reluctant,” who was “the most in favor”?
Before we get too much further along, I do want to take a moment to thank Gov. Ridge for being willing to come and chat about his book here today. It isn’t often that we get someone willing to cross the sacrosanct party lines and engage folks who believe strongly on the other side of the political fence. So it is very much appreciated that you were willing to do just that today.
How about a round of thanks for all the people who asked informed and reasoned questions? Is this not a fine group of citizens?
Thanks all.
Everything is OK!
Have a good day.
Bye.
I have witnessed and heard representatives of both parties of both philosophical points of view engaging in outrageous name calling of the other side I haven’t figured out if this reflects a broader cultural phenomenon I see evidence of this bad behavior. I wish I had an answer because such behavior demeans the process of government and I believe hugely frustrates any ability to find common ground to solve real problems. I believe that both parties should call a truce to the name calling, and seek that common ground.
Thanks Christy, for the clarification/answer.
Yes, just in case I may have begun to sound impolite, I do want to add my appreciation.
I hope your willingness to treat your political opposition as people with their own principles will become more popular, Governor Ridge.
SHHHH! Palin/Bauchmann please.
I feel less safe now. The possibility that another terrorist attack will occur is remote. The possibility that at some point some TSA worker will overstep his bounds and I or someone I know will end up for several hours in a back room trying to explain what our rights are seems far less remote.
Law enforcement people have to screw up really, really badly to be held accountable for their actions. When they aren’t trained or supervised properly, they’re a danger in themselves.
I remember that..and his agreement with Secretary Ridge seems to imply that most of the things we need to do transcend political differences even as they are left undone due to political differences.
Again, thank you for being here, sir.
Sure thing — having read the whole book in detail, it has been mind-boggling to watch some of the interviews Gov. Ridge has done in the context of what is actually IN the book. And to read media reports. It’s as though they are getting questions off some sort of blast fax Cliff’s Notes instead of having a staffer actually read the whole book and then prep questions for them.
But there you are.
Let me second what Christy said.
Honest, forthright conversation is getting harder and harder to come by. Your answers may not be what some might like, but I appreciate your willingness to honor our questions with a response.
I’m shocked. Shocked, I tell you . . .
Wasn’t TSA also established to be non-union and low pay jobs?
He has not answered my questions.
I think there was actually a mix negotiated between the civil service union and TSA — depending on the job, level of skill/expertise required for it, etc. But I could be misremembering — it’s been a while.
With all due respect, Governor Ridge, it is outrageous to compare what is being flung at Democrats, and particularly President Obama, with any criticisms leveled at any Republican at any time.
I have a stack of political cartoons about that. Please understand that when we prepared Ready Campaign to response to question America has asked “What should we do?” We included a recommendation that the Red Cross and FEMA has been making for many, many, years. The recommendation included a Ready Kit that included water for 3 days, non-perishable food, flashlights, battery powered radio, and fairly lengthy list that included duct tape. I believe humor is a very effective way with dealing with difficult and emotional issues. Ridicule is not. Some enterprising journalists took a look at the recommendations of the Red Cross to poke fun at DHS and National Campaign that were worked for months with the AD Council. The Joke is on them, being ready is serious business.
As the book notes, Max Cleland was a victim of this. Too bad for Cleland’s sake that few Republicans would repudiate these tactics while they were being employed.
The Dept. of Homeland Security was supposed to be non-union, according to the act that created it. That usually means it ends up being low-wage, as well. Whether that was the intention or not is probably best answerable by individual congressmen and the folks in the Bush Admin. who pushed that provision.
Thanks, Newt. I was going to point out the false equivalence as well.
Or, put another way, Sec. Ridge, who would you say is the equivalent of a Glenn Beck or a Rush Limbaugh on the “left”?
FWDiva
And I, for one, have the duct tape and flashlight with additional batteries and first aid kit to prove it. But that may be my girl scout days and not the Red Cross’ fault.
Without driving the thread off-topic…
never mind. These chart-busting false equivalences make me crazy.
Gov. Ridge talks about the campaign against Cleland and, I believe if I remember correctly, called it “brutal.”
Yours and many others — though you have to admit that there are lots of folks to ask the questions and only one of him to provide the answers.
That said, I would love to hear his answer to your question @35.
He’s probably getting close to your first one. The last one I think he answered was comment 31
[Edit: make that 34]
A great example of the immaturity of our MSM
Right. It’s too bad comments like that weren’t made by Republicans at the time.
Dude, we can’t all be a Speed Racer typist. *g* Patience grasshopper…
You keep it up! These people are paid by us citizens and they need to be accountable.
As a joke it was somewhat amusing at the time, but rhetorically it was the same sort of lightweight criticism as claiming that Obama’s energy policy was that we should properly inflate our tires. Both should have been left to the Lettermans and Lenos of the world.
Hopefully you should be next, Snarkassandra. I’ve noticed that Mr. Ridge has been reponding pretty much in numerical order.
Are we now understanding that there was a joke in those recommendations? I mean, it was a joke, but I never understood that it was intended as one.
I’d like to say that the Chambliss campaign tactics against a vet of Cleland’s injuries and service record ought to have been beneath anyone in American politics. But I’ve read too much American history to know better…
I even pay taxes now!
But I think the government pays more for me than I pay back with my 10 hour a week Subway job.
Yes, I remember some such mind-warping indoctrination by the Boy Scouts. Got extra batteries for your portable radio?
I don’t know where you’ve been hanging out, or what tv coverage you’ve been watching, but from what I’ve seen, it’s the right wing, the Republicans, who are the screamers and interrupters.
Democrats and Progressives aren’t showing up [with guns] and shouting down those who disagree with them.
No — it wasn’t a joke. It was treated as one by the media, but the duct tape recommendation along with other emergency kit essentials has been a long-standing Red Cross handout list. I think that’s what he was saying. (And I hope I have that right…)
Obviously you are proud of your older bother, I would be interested in learning about his assignment and the job he is on. The western world can not afford to allow the Taliban and Al Queda to reestablish itself in Afghanistan, the haven from which 911 attack was orchestrated. American, in my judgment, should not be the only soldiers committed to this front. I am personally hopeful the military commanders in the field will be supported by the public back home, in their effort to create effective Afghan military and police force to accomplish this goal. There is obviously a new strategy offered by these commanders. Unless there are significant signs of success in the near future, I believe America’s support will end. As a former soldier in Viet Nam let me tell you how important it is for your bother to hear from his family and friends and occasional letter would be most welcome.
Ayup. Remember, Sec. Ridge is a former Infantryman, rather large, with fingers the size of dill pickles. A keyboard to him is like texting from a blackberry to most others.
Governor Ridge, much of the American pulic, not just liberals, saw the hightened terrorist alerts as politically motivated. When you recently mentioned this many thought you were stating the obvious. Why did you feel the need to backtrack on your statement?
I regret I haven’t answered all who have submitted questions, and hope to answer a few more during the next week as possible.
It has been fun engaging you in such a thoughtful and respectful way.
Have a great weekend.
I don’t think the recmmendation about encasing your residence in plastic wrap is a standard Red Cross recommendation, is it Christy?/s
Thank you governor.
Yes I can confirm that. My partner works at the ARC in preparedness.
I am proud of him and I hope that he is doing some good there, and that he doesn’t come home with PTSD.
Thanks so much for being here today, Gov. Ridge, and answering so many of the questions asked.
Hope everyone has a great holiday weekend — thanks for all the fantastic questions, gang!
Thank you again for attending, Governor Ridge.
I don’t remember about the plastic wrap. But I do know I’ve fixed a lot of things in my day with spare duct tape. *g*
Thank you.
Generally speaking, the comments to a given thread are automatically closed after about 24 hours or so. If you want to reply to questions after that, send your answers to Christy or Bev and I’m sure they’ll get them out.
I understand. It takes time to be thoughtful.
Do you know if he’s coming back later to answer more of the questions?
I’d be interested in his answer to my 81. I’d also be interested in what his perception is of VP Cheney’s job to “Oversee Domestic Counterterrorism Efforts” and how effective Cheney was as this coordinator
It’s actually just one room, as protection against a biochemical attack.
Thanks for stopping by.
Happy Labor Day Weekend Sec. Ridge. Remember, without the labor movement,there would be no weekends.
Namaste
Well, I’m just glad I misspelled public by dropping the ”b” rather than the ”l.” *g*
Now that he’s gone, someone please tell me if I made a mistake. On West Wing, everyone calls the president “Mr. President”. But no one except me said “Mr. Governor”. Did I mess up?
Take care, Governor Ridge.
We patched a leaky raft on the Colorado River (just before the biggest rapid, Lava Falls) with duct tape. I’m a big fan!
And thank you, Christy!
Kassie, you were fantastic! I thought both of your questions were worthy of serious answers.
Mr Governor was just fine and very respectful. My dad used to work for the governor of California many moons ago, and that’s what we called him.
Spencer Ackerman is upstairs!
An Afghan Circle I Would Like Squared
Duct tape is also known as “Arkansas Chrome.”
“Governor” is a very old title. I’m not sure when it originated, but it predates “Mr. President” by at least a century. And yes, it’s “Governor”, rather than “Mr. Governor”, rather like it’s “Colonel” and not “Mr. Colonel”.
I have related question about protocol, though. I’m told that Presidents are always “Mr. President” even when they are no longer in office. Is the same true of governors, or is that just another of those titles we use informally?
iirc, it’s usually Senator X, Governor Y, Secretary G. Although I’ve heard Mr Secretary or Madame secretary.
I think Mr President is kind of its own construction.
But if you made a mistake, it was an extremely minor one!
Good to see you.
FWDiva
One amusing fact that i learned reading this book — Gov. Ridge was a card-carrying union member at one of his jobs in his youth.
Thank you for attending this book salon, Mr. Ridge. It took some guts, with this crowd. And thank you for hosting, Christy.
Although it was good to have a civil discussion, the responses were about what I expected, but still useful, if only to demonstrate the thinking on the other side of the aisle. It sort of highlights the core differences in beliefs between the left and even so-called ‘moderates’ on the other side.
Thank you Gov. Ridge.
Great job Christy!! You never cease to amaze me.
Happy Labor Day to all pups everywhere.
As long as you didn’t call him Mr. Crankypants, I think you’re okay.
Different people related to him in different ways. To some, the title “Secretary” is most significant as it is a cabinet-level position; to others the title “Governor” might be seen as more important, as a chief executive of a state.
I went with the “Secretary” title, in that the book dealt mainly with his DHS service — but given the way he talks about being governor in the book, I’m sure he enjoyed hearing that title used as well.
Governor is an honorific to be used the rest of their lives.
Hi, Cassie! Well, “Mr. Governor” isn’t the standard form of address for governors, but I wouldn’t worry. You did not mess up, you were perfectly respectful.
I think when you address a governor directly, as we did here, you just call him “governor”, like “congresswoman,” or “senator.”
But then, there’s “Mr. Mayor.” It’s not a logical system.
But, considering that whenever the Queen of England visits America, she’s bound to be yelled to by some crowd member as “hey, Queenie!”, you have nothing to be embarassed about. I’m sure he only noticed the contet of your question.
I’ve seen plenty of former governors on the news,etc, and they still get addressed as Governor.
e.g. “Governor Dean” on Countdown.
FWDiva
What if it is a Mrs. President? Or a Dr. President?
And that ended, he said in the book, in his first year of law school.
*g*
Really? Well, Cassie, just ignore my post, then; Mommybrain has much more intimate knowledge! *g*
(((ofg)))
Don’t worry, Kassie. More important, you asked a very good question. But I’m sure you noticed that he didn’t answer it. He has a tendency to not answer the question asked, but to say something related. A way to finesse the issue, lots of politicians do that.
I also just noticed that you got the last response from him. Lucky day!!
I am on the debate team, and we don’t earn any points by pointing that out, which means everyone avoids questions.
Sounds like they should change the rules. What good is a debate if the other side doesn’t answer your questions? Of course, changing the topic is an old trick–especially effective if you can make it sound like you are answering the question.
I agree, and both you, perris and several others have asked great questions. But did you notice how almost everyone is bending over backwards to be polite and thankful they have this chance to ask questions? Certainly Gov. Ridge is to be commended for being here, but the impulse to be grateful just for the opportunity to ask questions (So we will get more Republican guests? So we won’t look like rude hippies?) should also illustrate something about our Village media mindset.
I’m all for polite, and I’m all for appreciating our guest, but when you wonder why some of our main stream media don’t ask these kind of thoughtful tough questions you can see the roots of that right here. And I’m here to tell you that the Bush press team, Rove and Hughes, were very good at exploiting those impulses. Kicking reporters off the VPs plane, pushing Helen Thomas to the back row, calling up editor’s bosses and yelling at them. They demanded the press respect the “Office of the President” while they treated the press like dirt. (All this is documented in Eric Boehlert’s book, Lapdogs)
When we wonder why they don’t ask tough questions or call people out as liars, it’s because they are afraid of what we might be afraid of, losing access or angering the guest. Now, granted, styles differ, TeddyinSF is a master at the graceful opening followed by the tough question and the tight close. And the media of today don’t match the shouting press in the UK today or in the movies from the 40-50’s, but when we are acting like journalists, as we are here, we have an opportunity and an obligation to have as complete a conversation as we can. Including supporting the need for follow ups to tough questions and the calling people out on non-answers.
Bush was actually very fragile when confronted and so his press conferences were designed to protect him (one question, no follow ups, stage managed events with no tough questions). A certain style of questions made him angry (remember Irish Reporter Carol Coleman?) (Frankly in many cases that questioning technique doesn’t work to get info anyway, but with Bush it would have shown the rage he felt that was just under the surface. When you have multiple follow-ups from the same and different sources you can see when they run out of spin and are busted. Bush often had only one spin answer to a question he didn’t like. Diane Sawyer said that she didn’t ask the same question more than three times because then the sympathy would move from the questioner to the person questioned, “Ahhh, they are picking oh him with their gotcha questions, poor guy.”)
Politicians have been media trained for years to deal with the press, we don’t need to tiptoe around them when it comes to questions about issues of importance to everyone.
Gov. Ridge also changed the topic on Rachel Maddow the other night, when she asked him about WMDs in Iraq. He started talking about how the war was to establish democracy there. She, sharp lady, didn’t let him get away with it.
Hmm, I hopE that doesn’t mean that traditional team debate is devolving toward the debased political “debate” model.
Our election “debates” have not been real debates for many, many years.
I don’t know. Kassie?
We are a well-mannered bunch, Spocko. What can I say. We knew from watching the Rachel interview and, well, from years of personal observation of the Republican Way that he wouldn’t be forthcoming. And frankly, I don’t think he cared if he answered our question fully. To him it’s all about the show of bipartisanship.
Yeah, maybe. I get more the sense of the loyal soldier. Similar to Colin Powell, but not as smart.
Spocko, your comments about the “roots” of the journo attitude are interesting…otoh, I guess we are a bit concerned about upholding the honor of dfh’s. And, I think some of us did repeat our questions = Cassie did, I did, and several others.
Unfortunately, in this format, if you really want to dodge a question, you pretty much can.
And that might have been part of our “extreme” politeness – no point chasing ‘em away when you might get some answer.
It isn’t like we expect to be in the room at his next presser, so we’re not about access next time.
lol.
Bummer, wanted to ask if he thought it was okay for republicans to bring guns to an event the POTUS would be at.
Thanks, tjr. Wish I could laugh at this stuff, sometimes.
Though I suppose that in a perfect world, people like Tom Ridge could perform useful service in a good cause. Clearly he works very hard and is well-organized. But I don’t think he can see the forest for the trees when it comes to these larger questions…
That would have been a great question.
Great Qs. As not so much.
Gouvernor Morris is an example…he was called that before his signature on the Declaration of Independence and it almost became his “name”.
If it’s a male doctor, it will still be Mr. President. In the case of a woman, I don’t know. Suspect it will be either “Ms.”, “Miss”, or “Mrs.”, depending…
Marta Evry’s diary is upstairs!
The Public Option: A Promise Kept or a Promise Broken
Oh, I know you did. And, like I said, I appreciate it. It’s just sad they got ignored.
What if you were? I agree with Mommybrain, we ARE a polite bunch and at times that is used against us. So we need to be smarter and be aware of that. You are right this format does somewhat work against us.
Envision this. Gov. Ridge was asked the question about waterboarding and torture. He gave his response. This lead to jayt’s excellent follow up at 92. At this point a very significant follow-up questions is on the table about the Japanese case of waterboarding.
Now the Gov. might dance around it and he can if he has enough other questions to get to. But if the entire conversation had come to a halt and everyone said, “We yield our time/questions to jayt as we await an answer to that question.” And if jayt doesn’t feel that the answer is satisfactory we ask it again.
When I was blogging about the pet food crisis in 2007 in which pet food tainted with melamine from China killed over 4,000 cats and dogs, I saw how the FDA controlled the journalists with these kinds of techniques, using the limits of the format to their advantage. They held telephone conference calls. One question PER NEWS ORGANIZATION. No follow ups. They controlled the phoneline, they controlled who got on the call, they controlled who got called on. At one point the FDA “answered” a question with something that the LA Times had debunked the day before (about the Chinese holding up visas giving the melamine factory time to bulldoze it to the ground.” This was obstruction pure and simple. The reporter from the LA Times who wrote that story was on the call. He couldn’t tell them. “You are wrong, I know you are wrong because I wrote the opposite of that yesterday. The Chinese DID hold up the visas and it was so they could destroy the evidence.”
I suggested to the assembled journalists that they set up an online chat room in situations like this with other organizations so that if they had already given up their question someone else could ask it. I also suggested that they change the format to allow follow ups. But they had already been manipulated and played.
Because they were manipulated the public never got important life and death information about that crisis.
1) Scope: The number of sick and dead cats and dogs was minimized. It wasn’t “a few dozen” but TENS of THOUSANDS. Scope makes a difference.
2) Chickens and pigs were fed the exact same food that killed over 4,000 cats and dogs. Those chickens and pigs went to your kids. This is because the recalled pet food wasn’t destroyed but sold to chicken and pig processing plants. That then went into the human food supply.
Does it bother you to know that the FDA wouldn’t tell you the name of the processor that mainstreamed the 20,000,000 chickens and 56,000 pigs who at the same melamine that killed babies in China the next year?
How did they keep this info away from the press? They used the format of the phone Q&A and the inability of the press to work together on this. To battle this I organized the 6 most prominent pet bloggers with conference calls so that we could work together and not get played.
Dick Durbin was able to ask brilliant questions of the head of the Pet Food Lobbying companies because of us. We had a list of recalled pet foods that was better than what the FDA had, we broke many newly recalled foods. Durbin, in his hearing with the FDA, held up our list and said, “Why can’t you do a list that is as good and as current as a bunch of bloggers?”
Oh and I know the name of the processor that fed the tainted food to the chickens and pigs. But I can’t tell you. Why? Because I don’t want to get into the same kind of “food disparagement lawsuit” with Big Pig that Oprah got into with Big Beef. Unlike a newspaper or Oprah I don’t have a legal staff to protect me.
This is why we need journalists to do their jobs and help them when we can. And when we have opportunities to act like journalists we rise to the task. This community has done more in this area than almost any other but we always need to remember the ways that we can be played.
America is not under siege, except in the minds of people who have made millions because of it and the ones who have to have something to worry about.
I’ve said for a long time that Americans, at least those portrayed by republicans, embarrass me. What a bunch of wimps.
You guys have so much class! Can you imagine the reception a Dem official going to Red State and taking questions would get? LOL!! bmaz gets the prize for most brilliant comment/question of the day @ #88!! although there were a lot of 2nd place contenders. Like most here, I wasn’t expecting much substance in answers, and that’s pretty much what we got. Nice that he showed up though, and thanks to FDL and Christie for hosting this! Oh, I’d love him to try and name even one example of a Dem going off with the level of anger, hatred and lies coming from Repubs.
But she had the advantage a) of being on live tv; and 2) of being face to face with him.
With this Book Salon, as much as I appreciate the effort in putting it together, Ridge had the upper hand: he could “answer” whichever question he chose; he could ignore most all of them; there was no ability for follow-up.
OTOH, I don’t think he generated any book sales here.
Exactly.
My guess is “Madam President”, like Madam Secretary or Madam President of the General Assembly (at the UN).
I’m glad not all Republicans are like Gov. Ridge. They would be much harder to beat. It’s a shame the way he is treated by the far right wing of his party.
I missed the forum but I thought that Ridge was very unresponsive. He replied in vague terms only about 6 times…once to make aspersions to a statement that actually wasn’t said.
He never did follow up on his statement that the torturers should not be prosecuted…implying that the use of water-boarding, while torture, was rare. Would that not actully be MORE justification for prosecution (falling into the “cruel and unusual” umbrella? In addition, punishing those “bad apples” who authorized and performed torture would serve as a deterrant, as well as be limited to a few individuals.
I found it interesting that he heard that the treatment was “ineffective”. Several of the Orange Alerts were triggered by intelligence gained in interrogations using these torture methods (not merely waterboarding but sleep deprivation, hours of positions in tiny darkened boxes, hanging people in closets where they had to stnd on tip-toe, nudity in temperature extreme rooms, daipering people in their own waste for 48 hours, etc.
So these people confessed to plots…the country went on alert…shutting down bridges into San Francisco, closing airports, making people panic about their gas stations, apartment buildings, amusement parks, Federal offices, etc. Hundreds of millions of dollars were lost to the economy. Not a single real plot was uncovered, not a single terrorist involved in one of the “operations” were ever located.
After the alerts were downgraded it was admitted by DHHS that the “sources” provided false or erroneous information.
I wonder when Ridge learned about the methods used to gain the information, and if he immediately stated to the Cabinet that the technigues used were utterly unreliable whatever they were. Any responsible Director and member of the Cabinet would have raised such concerns after false negatives. He would have asked “How was this info obtained? Why is it unreliable (people under torture will lie, make up things or are highly suggestible to the “interrogators” push about people or events)?
That issue…what did you know…and when..and why you didn’t stop it…are still hanging over Ridges’ head.
Christy @ 4
Ridge @ 22
Un-fucking-believable. The guy won’t touch it. Instead, he’s going to blow smoke up your ass. Tom Ridge, Harvard Dud.
Like Rachel said, if you’re going to tow the line on the absurd notion that absent WMD, democracy in Iraq will make the failure of the Bush Administration to make a rational decision about invading it, go away.
Ridge @78:
Ridge @28:
Neil, you often make great points and I frequently agree with you. But I think that Ridge did more than simply blow smoke. You are free to disagree, and certainly the discussion could have gone farther, but stating that he believes waterboarding is torture, and also that the Republicans completely blew fiscal responsibility is — for a Republican who served under Bush — not simply ‘blowing smoke’.
Is the conversation what you might want?
Clearly not.
But after years of the nefarious Limbaugh, the preening O’Reilly, and the vicious Ann Coulter, as far as I’m concerned this is progress and I hope to see a whole lot more of it.
It’s a start.
That’s nothing to scoff at.
Thx to Gov Ridge, CHS, Jane Hamsher, and the server squirrels who keep the servers running.