Comments on: The means are the end http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/ Firedoglake weblog Fri, 17 Feb 2012 07:06:49 -0600 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: libbyliberal http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/#comment-1969168 libbyliberal Wed, 02 Sep 2009 02:49:08 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/#comment-1969168 <p>Thanks, selise. I appreciated Hacker as someone who seemed sincere and teacherly and appealing but kept thinking in a non-corrupt world he had a case not in this one. Still, glad I caught it. The part where he said both public and private should not have any advantages but level playing field made me nervous since I think public will get the most expensive cases and deserves to have a bulk bargaining discount ability, but that is my single payer voice talking eh? </p> <p>Thanks for link. Will check it out. I am continuing with my single payer phone calls and will follow the pnhp updates. When you see Lehrer on podcast with Hacker, let me know if you think old Jim is putting his thumb on the scale’s other side. Was it my oversensitivity from my increased raised consciousness about corporate media being CORPORATE? Awwww….. I guess I don’t want to give up my Newshour kool-aid. Sigh. </p> <p>Take care.</p> Thanks, selise. I appreciated Hacker as someone who seemed sincere and teacherly and appealing but kept thinking in a non-corrupt world he had a case not in this one. Still, glad I caught it. The part where he said both public and private should not have any advantages but level playing field made me nervous since I think public will get the most expensive cases and deserves to have a bulk bargaining discount ability, but that is my single payer voice talking eh?

Thanks for link. Will check it out. I am continuing with my single payer phone calls and will follow the pnhp updates. When you see Lehrer on podcast with Hacker, let me know if you think old Jim is putting his thumb on the scale’s other side. Was it my oversensitivity from my increased raised consciousness about corporate media being CORPORATE? Awwww….. I guess I don’t want to give up my Newshour kool-aid. Sigh.

Take care.

]]> By: selise http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/#comment-1969102 selise Wed, 02 Sep 2009 01:17:31 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/#comment-1969102 <p>thanks for the heads up libbyliberal. i will try to find and listen to the podcast of the newshour tomorrow. i am interested to hear what hacker has to say in that kind of forum.</p> <p>my current take is that hacker’s original proposal for a public option, if combined with strong regulation and enforcement (including risk adjustment), might have worked (not nearly as well as single payer, but at least not the disaster i think the pos in current bills are). unfortunately, that is not what is currently in play (see for example, <a href="http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/07/20/bait-and-switch-how-the-“public-option”-was-sold/" rel="nofollow">kip sullivan’s analysis</a>). but maybe there is something i’m missing, so that’s another reason to give hacker a listen on newhour.</p> <p>thanks again!</p> <p>p.s. if you put my name in a comment, there is a good chance i will see it — better than 50/50 anyway — asi have my rss reader set up to flag me.</p> thanks for the heads up libbyliberal. i will try to find and listen to the podcast of the newshour tomorrow. i am interested to hear what hacker has to say in that kind of forum.

my current take is that hacker’s original proposal for a public option, if combined with strong regulation and enforcement (including risk adjustment), might have worked (not nearly as well as single payer, but at least not the disaster i think the pos in current bills are). unfortunately, that is not what is currently in play (see for example, kip sullivan’s analysis). but maybe there is something i’m missing, so that’s another reason to give hacker a listen on newhour.

thanks again!

p.s. if you put my name in a comment, there is a good chance i will see it — better than 50/50 anyway — asi have my rss reader set up to flag me.

]]> By: libbyliberal http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/#comment-1969090 libbyliberal Wed, 02 Sep 2009 00:42:22 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/#comment-1969090 <p>selise, don’t know if you will get to see this, but Jacob Hacker on the Newshour on Tuesday night did a great job pitching a public plan. FYI. Haven’t googled him yet but will. He spoke pretty passionately on how a public plan would take care of the self and unemployed or those with inadequate plans and to provide competition to break pricing inflation of health and drug industries. A healthy competition if they both had a level playing field. Jim Lehrer seemed very concerned that the public would “crowd out” the insurance companies and the ultimate goal was single payer. Lehrer seemed pretty arch for himself and kind of pressed … for an answer about progressives. Jacobs said that substantial number of progressives treat public as deal breaker and many people in country are confused why Congress so anti-public plan since competition supposed to be good for America.</p> <p>Okay.. now I am wondering… Is Newshour sponsored by insurance company or drug company? I always want Newshour folks to be more feisty with guests, but is it inspired by corporate loyalty??? Sigh.</p> selise, don’t know if you will get to see this, but Jacob Hacker on the Newshour on Tuesday night did a great job pitching a public plan. FYI. Haven’t googled him yet but will. He spoke pretty passionately on how a public plan would take care of the self and unemployed or those with inadequate plans and to provide competition to break pricing inflation of health and drug industries. A healthy competition if they both had a level playing field. Jim Lehrer seemed very concerned that the public would “crowd out” the insurance companies and the ultimate goal was single payer. Lehrer seemed pretty arch for himself and kind of pressed … for an answer about progressives. Jacobs said that substantial number of progressives treat public as deal breaker and many people in country are confused why Congress so anti-public plan since competition supposed to be good for America.

Okay.. now I am wondering… Is Newshour sponsored by insurance company or drug company? I always want Newshour folks to be more feisty with guests, but is it inspired by corporate loyalty??? Sigh.

]]> By: libbyliberal http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/#comment-1968936 libbyliberal Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:03:07 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/#comment-1968936 <p>thanks for their link!!!</p> thanks for their link!!!

]]> By: libbyliberal http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/#comment-1968934 libbyliberal Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:02:08 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/#comment-1968934 <p>yes, yes, yes. 3 groups of people. those who make things happen. those who watch things happen. those who ask “wtf” happened?</p> yes, yes, yes. 3 groups of people. those who make things happen. those who watch things happen. those who ask “wtf” happened?

]]> By: libbyliberal http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/#comment-1968933 libbyliberal Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:00:58 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/#comment-1968933 <p>nick, I think it is our only hope. Otherwise it is a Sysiphisean (spelling?) future for us American serfs of playing lucy with the football in the quicksand with betraying leaders. (sorry for the mixed metaphors :))</p> nick, I think it is our only hope. Otherwise it is a Sysiphisean (spelling?) future for us American serfs of playing lucy with the football in the quicksand with betraying leaders. (sorry for the mixed metaphors :))

]]> By: libbyliberal http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/#comment-1968929 libbyliberal Tue, 01 Sep 2009 18:57:37 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/#comment-1968929 <p>Absolutely right, OFG. Yes.</p> <p>But my point was the track record of Bushco and the CIA to recognize a possible “enemy”. What frightening frame of reference? What ethical freakshow depraved crazymaking — don’t just stand there torture someone non-stop and keep them in a cage for say seven years and we can’t let them go because then we will be admitting we are monsters even if they are innocent and were in the wrong place (which the US is collectively) at the wrong time. And if accused of our disgusting behavior we will cling to our myth of righteousness. </p> <p>And these traumatized beings … well then we have the sheeple group that gets so hysterical that the traumatized beings after so many years of torture cannot be put on US soil with their PTSD-wracked psyches because they will hurt US I mean “us” … ????? Even though they will be in our own prison system, that is no cake walk and is incidentally in need, long long overdue, of some SANE and HUMANE regulation.</p> <p>I guess America’s War on Empathy is the only War On … being won. What a tragedy.</p> Absolutely right, OFG. Yes.

But my point was the track record of Bushco and the CIA to recognize a possible “enemy”. What frightening frame of reference? What ethical freakshow depraved crazymaking — don’t just stand there torture someone non-stop and keep them in a cage for say seven years and we can’t let them go because then we will be admitting we are monsters even if they are innocent and were in the wrong place (which the US is collectively) at the wrong time. And if accused of our disgusting behavior we will cling to our myth of righteousness.

And these traumatized beings … well then we have the sheeple group that gets so hysterical that the traumatized beings after so many years of torture cannot be put on US soil with their PTSD-wracked psyches because they will hurt US I mean “us” … ????? Even though they will be in our own prison system, that is no cake walk and is incidentally in need, long long overdue, of some SANE and HUMANE regulation.

I guess America’s War on Empathy is the only War On … being won. What a tragedy.

]]> By: libbyliberal http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/#comment-1968925 libbyliberal Tue, 01 Sep 2009 18:50:05 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/#comment-1968925 <p>thanks so much for the overview and the self-share! </p> <p>I think of the $1.4+ million a day invested on bribery … anything to keep status quo, vendor control of the whole shebang going, with that money essentially being used to protect the illegitimately deregulated amoral profiteers and the horrifying amounts to the military budget that is going toward oppression and death elsewhere and further profiteering by those illegitimate profiteers … and it boggles the mind and heart how the “common good” and the community of nation is under such sustained attack by so many self-servers and there seems little heart and conscience among those who were entrusted with power and trust. Little devotion to the family of nation and the broader family of man.</p> thanks so much for the overview and the self-share!

I think of the $1.4+ million a day invested on bribery … anything to keep status quo, vendor control of the whole shebang going, with that money essentially being used to protect the illegitimately deregulated amoral profiteers and the horrifying amounts to the military budget that is going toward oppression and death elsewhere and further profiteering by those illegitimate profiteers … and it boggles the mind and heart how the “common good” and the community of nation is under such sustained attack by so many self-servers and there seems little heart and conscience among those who were entrusted with power and trust. Little devotion to the family of nation and the broader family of man.

]]> By: OldFatGuy http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/#comment-1968848 OldFatGuy Tue, 01 Sep 2009 14:23:28 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/#comment-1968848 <blockquote><p>And that most likely 85% of the torturees were innocent</p></blockquote> <p>Since one is innocent until <strong>proven</strong> guilty, by definition 100% of the torturees were innocent.</p>

And that most likely 85% of the torturees were innocent

Since one is innocent until proven guilty, by definition 100% of the torturees were innocent.

]]> By: Jkat http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/#comment-1968847 Jkat Tue, 01 Sep 2009 14:17:35 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/09/01/the-means-are-the-end/#comment-1968847 <p>in re: torture .. aka EIT .. </p> <p>“all evil needs to triumph is that good men [and women] do nothing ..” </p> <p>thanx turk ..</p> in re: torture .. aka EIT ..

“all evil needs to triumph is that good men [and women] do nothing ..”

thanx turk ..

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