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	<title>Comments on: Experiment in Terror: The Psychological Evaluation of Abu Zubaydah and Its Role in Designing Torture</title>
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	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/</link>
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		<title>By: Jeff Kaye</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/#comment-1966583</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Kaye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 13:52:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/#comment-1966583</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks for the link. Since there was plenty of interactions between European SERE programs and U.S. over the years, there were many ways the term could have migrated. Also, we cannot be absolutely sure who wrote the “eval,” or if it was even the work of one person. We just don’t know everyone that was there. Still, Mitchell or Jessen remain the primary suspects. Btw, the JPRA feels competitive and superior to the European programs, but in a stupid way, such that JPRA tops don’t like to hear about any way in which the Europeans might do something better. The spirit of party, so to say, remains very alive in the military.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;To ondelette, @13, you were right to point out the stress upon the physiological component, and also how the torture works on a neurological level. All psychological torture is ultimately physical torture, as it acts primarily upon the nervous system, particularly brain subsystems. But the effect is global. Glad to hear you learned to master, as much as one can, those panic storms. — I’m sure Physicians for Human Rights will have a lot more to say about the medical aspects of the torture, as revealed in the IG report.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link. Since there was plenty of interactions between European SERE programs and U.S. over the years, there were many ways the term could have migrated. Also, we cannot be absolutely sure who wrote the “eval,” or if it was even the work of one person. We just don’t know everyone that was there. Still, Mitchell or Jessen remain the primary suspects. Btw, the JPRA feels competitive and superior to the European programs, but in a stupid way, such that JPRA tops don’t like to hear about any way in which the Europeans might do something better. The spirit of party, so to say, remains very alive in the military.</p>
<p>To ondelette, @13, you were right to point out the stress upon the physiological component, and also how the torture works on a neurological level. All psychological torture is ultimately physical torture, as it acts primarily upon the nervous system, particularly brain subsystems. But the effect is global. Glad to hear you learned to master, as much as one can, those panic storms. — I’m sure Physicians for Human Rights will have a lot more to say about the medical aspects of the torture, as revealed in the IG report.</p>
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		<title>By: cinnamonape</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/#comment-1966582</link>
		<dc:creator>cinnamonape</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 12:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/#comment-1966582</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Here’s the link to the &lt;a href=&quot;http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&amp;q=cache:8nLtn7tixzcJ:www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/Academics/Bellaward/Papers2007/nh-grimshaw.pdf+Jessen+%22HMS+Daedalus%22&amp;hl=en&amp;gl=us&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Capt. Paul Grimshaw Thesis  which cites Jessen’s presentation in l995&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Perhaps Grimshaw could be contacted and provide a copy of the conference papers. It might open a door to what Jessen was involved in at the time and what other conferrees were discussing.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here’s the link to the <a href="http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&amp;q=cache:8nLtn7tixzcJ:www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/Academics/Bellaward/Papers2007/nh-grimshaw.pdf+Jessen+%22HMS+Daedalus%22&amp;hl=en&amp;gl=us" rel="nofollow">Capt. Paul Grimshaw Thesis  which cites Jessen’s presentation in l995</a> </p>
<p>Perhaps Grimshaw could be contacted and provide a copy of the conference papers. It might open a door to what Jessen was involved in at the time and what other conferrees were discussing.</p>
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		<title>By: cinnamonape</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/#comment-1966581</link>
		<dc:creator>cinnamonape</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 12:40:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/#comment-1966581</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;There are also references in Royal Navy training of their Special Forces…at least identifying those who may have the personality profiles. There is also one reference in the Australian Armed forces lit. as well. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Canada, British, UK but no US references…seems a bit odd. Maybe that’s where the Zubek tie is? But Jessen gave a presentation to NATO “Survival, Escape, Recovery, Evacuation” type programs at the &lt;em&gt;HMS Daedelus&lt;/em&gt; school back in the ’90’s. Oh…and that citation is found in a Canadians dissertation on the psychology of the survivors of those tortured.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are also references in Royal Navy training of their Special Forces…at least identifying those who may have the personality profiles. There is also one reference in the Australian Armed forces lit. as well. </p>
<p>Canada, British, UK but no US references…seems a bit odd. Maybe that’s where the Zubek tie is? But Jessen gave a presentation to NATO “Survival, Escape, Recovery, Evacuation” type programs at the <em>HMS Daedelus</em> school back in the ’90’s. Oh…and that citation is found in a Canadians dissertation on the psychology of the survivors of those tortured.</p>
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		<title>By: decora</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/#comment-1966580</link>
		<dc:creator>decora</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 12:29:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/#comment-1966580</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;“The Taliban are not out to take down the U.S. and never were.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;this is a very interesting claim but where is your evidence?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“The Taliban are not out to take down the U.S. and never were.”</p>
<p>this is a very interesting claim but where is your evidence?</p>
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		<title>By: 8bitagent</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/#comment-1966563</link>
		<dc:creator>8bitagent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 06:13:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/#comment-1966563</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;You know, the left is always harping on about torture conducted by the CIA on al Qaeda suspects. However, what I always wondered: If there was allegedly all this evidence that al Qaeda were behind 9/11, why would they need to conduct so much torture? And as of late we’ve been learning just how sickening and savage this brutalization was. I mean, if any of you or I were waterboarded 183 times I’m sure we’d both be “confessing” to 9/11 and all sorts of plots. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It’s now confirmed that that the majority of “evidence and confessions” and findings of the 9/11 commission was based on harsh CIA interrogation(torture) We also know KSM has said he just made up whatever to stop the abuse. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Yet by and large the liberals swallow the official 9/11 meme hook line and sinker just like the “evil right wingers”. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;A side note, Gerald Posner wrote a great article regarding Abu Zubaydah, revealing that he told of the identities of at least 8 Pakistani ISI and Saudi GID officials who were helping the 9/11 hijackers…all of whom died of mysterious deaths within a few weeks.&lt;br /&gt;
Why doesn’t the left, right or mainstream media talk about the evidence of Saudi or Pakistani ISI involvement in 9/11, or the fact even the FBI maintains that the 9/11 hijackers had quite a lot of help within the US by persons and accomplices unknown?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, the left is always harping on about torture conducted by the CIA on al Qaeda suspects. However, what I always wondered: If there was allegedly all this evidence that al Qaeda were behind 9/11, why would they need to conduct so much torture? And as of late we’ve been learning just how sickening and savage this brutalization was. I mean, if any of you or I were waterboarded 183 times I’m sure we’d both be “confessing” to 9/11 and all sorts of plots. </p>
<p>It’s now confirmed that that the majority of “evidence and confessions” and findings of the 9/11 commission was based on harsh CIA interrogation(torture) We also know KSM has said he just made up whatever to stop the abuse. </p>
<p>Yet by and large the liberals swallow the official 9/11 meme hook line and sinker just like the “evil right wingers”. </p>
<p>A side note, Gerald Posner wrote a great article regarding Abu Zubaydah, revealing that he told of the identities of at least 8 Pakistani ISI and Saudi GID officials who were helping the 9/11 hijackers…all of whom died of mysterious deaths within a few weeks.<br />
Why doesn’t the left, right or mainstream media talk about the evidence of Saudi or Pakistani ISI involvement in 9/11, or the fact even the FBI maintains that the 9/11 hijackers had quite a lot of help within the US by persons and accomplices unknown?</p>
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		<title>By: ondelette</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/#comment-1966540</link>
		<dc:creator>ondelette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 05:44:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/#comment-1966540</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;As usual, Jeff, your article produces a cascade of thoughts from me.  First, the use of a “sympathetic nervous system arousal” as a goal is very worrisome. Small disclosure, I used to have a symptom that a neurologist diagnosed as ‘involuntary panic reaction’: Basically a part of the lower brain dumps epinephrine into your system suddenly, and without warning or psychological trigger, for all the same lack of rhyme or reason that it dumps migraine headaches on some people.  And it has another similarity. The way to defeat them was to not let them last long, which is accomplished mostly by knowing what they are and “ignoring” them so they are limited in full effect to a few seconds (not that easy to do, they make you feel like you are dying sometimes).  Migraines work the same way, they need to be defeated quickly (with or without intervention). The reason is so they fail to form a habitual pathway, or disrupt one that has formed.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So someone who is deliberately trying to elicit permanent “sympathetic nervous system arousal” is actually going to create brain damage if successful, at the microscopic level by creating pathways for panic attack.  That says a lot about the reverse effects that fear tactics have on deprivation. We usually think of it the other way around, both the perps (who characterized the deprivation as “conditioning”) and those critical of the abusive treatment, who often regard the effect that deprivation has on the harsh interrogation tactics as one of it’s evils. Apparently, the fear tactics, the shouting and slapping and nudity, looked at in this light, would have an enhancing effect on deprivation, too. Never thought of it that way.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Second, I have been trying for a little while now to piece together the Aafia Siddiqui interrogations from the ones that are on record, and those were done by the FBI. So thank you for pointing me to your piece about Ali Soufan and the FBI abrogating common Article 3 as well.  “Third degree” tactics are no more legal under Geneva or CAT than deprivation tortures, and in fact, modern sleep deprivation derives from them according to Darius Rejali. Tag team interrogations are a form of sleep deprivation just as surely as shackling a person on the ground, prone, with arms and legs off the ground tied to the wall (one wonders why that doesn’t cause positional asphyxiation after a while).&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As usual, Jeff, your article produces a cascade of thoughts from me.  First, the use of a “sympathetic nervous system arousal” as a goal is very worrisome. Small disclosure, I used to have a symptom that a neurologist diagnosed as ‘involuntary panic reaction’: Basically a part of the lower brain dumps epinephrine into your system suddenly, and without warning or psychological trigger, for all the same lack of rhyme or reason that it dumps migraine headaches on some people.  And it has another similarity. The way to defeat them was to not let them last long, which is accomplished mostly by knowing what they are and “ignoring” them so they are limited in full effect to a few seconds (not that easy to do, they make you feel like you are dying sometimes).  Migraines work the same way, they need to be defeated quickly (with or without intervention). The reason is so they fail to form a habitual pathway, or disrupt one that has formed.</p>
<p>So someone who is deliberately trying to elicit permanent “sympathetic nervous system arousal” is actually going to create brain damage if successful, at the microscopic level by creating pathways for panic attack.  That says a lot about the reverse effects that fear tactics have on deprivation. We usually think of it the other way around, both the perps (who characterized the deprivation as “conditioning”) and those critical of the abusive treatment, who often regard the effect that deprivation has on the harsh interrogation tactics as one of it’s evils. Apparently, the fear tactics, the shouting and slapping and nudity, looked at in this light, would have an enhancing effect on deprivation, too. Never thought of it that way.</p>
<p>Second, I have been trying for a little while now to piece together the Aafia Siddiqui interrogations from the ones that are on record, and those were done by the FBI. So thank you for pointing me to your piece about Ali Soufan and the FBI abrogating common Article 3 as well.  “Third degree” tactics are no more legal under Geneva or CAT than deprivation tortures, and in fact, modern sleep deprivation derives from them according to Darius Rejali. Tag team interrogations are a form of sleep deprivation just as surely as shackling a person on the ground, prone, with arms and legs off the ground tied to the wall (one wonders why that doesn’t cause positional asphyxiation after a while).</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/#comment-1966413</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 03:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/#comment-1966413</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;What the AZ case shows is that our government wanted to torture.  All the people, agencies, ideas, and actions are bent and twisted to allow this result.  Even the ostensible purpose of “gaining actionable intelligence” was subordinated to it.  Torture became an end in itself.  As Cheney would say, an expression of American will.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What the AZ case shows is that our government wanted to torture.  All the people, agencies, ideas, and actions are bent and twisted to allow this result.  Even the ostensible purpose of “gaining actionable intelligence” was subordinated to it.  Torture became an end in itself.  As Cheney would say, an expression of American will.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Kaye</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/#comment-1966369</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Kaye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 03:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/#comment-1966369</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;That is totally fascinating. I began to google the phrase around, and the first reference was to a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/436090&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Canadian psychiatric use&lt;/a&gt;. Except, get this. It’s a reference to a technique to &lt;em&gt;stop violence&lt;/em&gt;. Will ironies never end?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;An approach to the management of potential violence on a General Hospital Psychiatric Unit is described as it evolved following analysis of the successful handling of a series of problem patients. The importance of an attitude of acceptance towards potentially violent persons is emphasized as is an orientation towards prevention. An approach of consistency and directness with enhancement of the patient’s positive personality features is favoured. The initial assessment is considered important and clues to the prediction of violence are highlighted, as are aspects of the supervision plan. A specific technique for prevention of violence based on the principle of Dislocation of Expectations, or doing differently than the subject expects, is introduced.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;[More searching…] Ah, this is the what you are &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.prlog.org/10252208-survivorbility-storms-channel-fours-big-brother-house-as-special-forces-on-national-television.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;referring&lt;/a&gt; to, I believe:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;It was a fantastic experience,” enthused Steve Stuttard, co-director of Survivorbility. “The fact that we’re the first people to ever enter the Big Brother house other than the actual contestants has given us all a huge buzz.” When asked what Survivorbility was tasked to do, Steve explained; “The core objective was to instil something called &lt;strong&gt;“dislocation of expectation”&lt;/strong&gt; which is a psychological technique used in military training &lt;strong&gt;to keep people out of their comfort zone. It’s all about making people believe that something terrible is going to happen to them, creating expectation and the fear along with it, but they’re not actually hurt.&lt;/strong&gt;” &lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is totally fascinating. I began to google the phrase around, and the first reference was to a <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/436090" rel="nofollow">Canadian psychiatric use</a>. Except, get this. It’s a reference to a technique to <em>stop violence</em>. Will ironies never end?</p>
<blockquote><p>An approach to the management of potential violence on a General Hospital Psychiatric Unit is described as it evolved following analysis of the successful handling of a series of problem patients. The importance of an attitude of acceptance towards potentially violent persons is emphasized as is an orientation towards prevention. An approach of consistency and directness with enhancement of the patient’s positive personality features is favoured. The initial assessment is considered important and clues to the prediction of violence are highlighted, as are aspects of the supervision plan. A specific technique for prevention of violence based on the principle of Dislocation of Expectations, or doing differently than the subject expects, is introduced.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>[More searching…] Ah, this is the what you are <a href="http://www.prlog.org/10252208-survivorbility-storms-channel-fours-big-brother-house-as-special-forces-on-national-television.html" rel="nofollow">referring</a> to, I believe:</p>
<blockquote><p>It was a fantastic experience,” enthused Steve Stuttard, co-director of Survivorbility. “The fact that we’re the first people to ever enter the Big Brother house other than the actual contestants has given us all a huge buzz.” When asked what Survivorbility was tasked to do, Steve explained; “The core objective was to instil something called <strong>“dislocation of expectation”</strong> which is a psychological technique used in military training <strong>to keep people out of their comfort zone. It’s all about making people believe that something terrible is going to happen to them, creating expectation and the fear along with it, but they’re not actually hurt.</strong>” </p>
</blockquote>
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		<title>By: cinnamonape</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/#comment-1966317</link>
		<dc:creator>cinnamonape</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 02:22:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/#comment-1966317</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;…when he experienced the initial “confrontational” dislocation of expectation during an interrogation session…
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;“Dislocation of expectation”  is an interesting phrase. It’s not commonly found in the literature in the US but is common in British versions of SERE and commando training. It’s used when they put the new set of trainees through a series of unexpected circumstances and seemingly (and really) hopeless tasks. The goal is to not necessarily to  evaluate who “succeeds” but who “breaks”…or who rebounds in the next task rather than carry on the trauma emotionally.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>…when he experienced the initial “confrontational” dislocation of expectation during an interrogation session…
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>“Dislocation of expectation”  is an interesting phrase. It’s not commonly found in the literature in the US but is common in British versions of SERE and commando training. It’s used when they put the new set of trainees through a series of unexpected circumstances and seemingly (and really) hopeless tasks. The goal is to not necessarily to  evaluate who “succeeds” but who “breaks”…or who rebounds in the next task rather than carry on the trauma emotionally.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Kaye</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/#comment-1966233</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Kaye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 01:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/28/experiment-in-terror-the-psychological-evaluation-of-abu-zubaydah-and-its-role-in-designing-torture/#comment-1966233</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Yes, but we’d have to prove it. But then, that’s what an investigation is for. Hmmm, or videotapes…&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, but we’d have to prove it. But then, that’s what an investigation is for. Hmmm, or videotapes…</p>
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