Comments on: Early Morning Swim http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/ Firedoglake weblog Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:23:28 -0600 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: Kurt http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/#comment-1965358 Kurt Thu, 27 Aug 2009 14:14:27 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/#comment-1965358 <p>Well said! Although I did have to read it twice :]</p> Well said! Although I did have to read it twice :]

]]> By: DWBartoo http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/#comment-1965354 DWBartoo Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:45:40 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/#comment-1965354 <p>Is this the result of term limits or the “function” of a society which has permitted the rightful obligation of the people to take upon themselves the responsibility for their own being to be usurped by the “convention” that “experts” know better, allowing the calculatingly clever to manipulate public consciousness and awareness and the damnable mythologies of “exceptional-ism” and a grueling “work ethic” that precludes the time for THINKING (if encouraged and “educated” toward) on the part of the people?</p> <p>I would suggest it is a complex mix .</p> <p>I would also suggest that those who desire power, for its own sake, are ALWAYS a threat to the rest of us.</p> <p>Public service should not be a lifetime sinecure.</p> <p>(I suspect you agree with all this SD, just wanted to put it “out there”)</p> <p>DW</p> Is this the result of term limits or the “function” of a society which has permitted the rightful obligation of the people to take upon themselves the responsibility for their own being to be usurped by the “convention” that “experts” know better, allowing the calculatingly clever to manipulate public consciousness and awareness and the damnable mythologies of “exceptional-ism” and a grueling “work ethic” that precludes the time for THINKING (if encouraged and “educated” toward) on the part of the people?

I would suggest it is a complex mix .

I would also suggest that those who desire power, for its own sake, are ALWAYS a threat to the rest of us.

Public service should not be a lifetime sinecure.

(I suspect you agree with all this SD, just wanted to put it “out there”)

DW

]]> By: Kurt http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/#comment-1965353 Kurt Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:42:43 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/#comment-1965353 <p>Diane, you contradict yourself. First you state a little socialism is ok, then you state that more Reps have your back than don’t. So which one is it?</p> Diane, you contradict yourself. First you state a little socialism is ok, then you state that more Reps have your back than don’t. So which one is it?

]]> By: Kurt http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/#comment-1965352 Kurt Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:39:00 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/#comment-1965352 <p>SanderO, we are not a democracy, we are a republic, there is a big difference between the two. But regardless, I do semi-agree with with first paragraph of your entry. Regardless of which route you go (republic/democracy), you are always going to have people that do not want to participate in society whether it is some pot smoker, or some anarchist nut. So what do you do with these people? Do you actually let them live off the backs of people that are participating in society? If you do allow this, the result will be very negative from the people doing the work.</p> <p>Another big point: Nothing is guaranteed in life, and nothing is fair. It doesn’t matter which political party is in control at the time, or what system of government we have that will always be true. The great thing about Capitalism is the smallest person in the world can make it big with a unique idea, or just through shear hard work. </p> <p>It’s too bad that we as Americans have lost that belief, when others in the world are struggling to get here to take advantage of it. All we seem to be concerned about is if something is fair or not.</p> SanderO, we are not a democracy, we are a republic, there is a big difference between the two. But regardless, I do semi-agree with with first paragraph of your entry. Regardless of which route you go (republic/democracy), you are always going to have people that do not want to participate in society whether it is some pot smoker, or some anarchist nut. So what do you do with these people? Do you actually let them live off the backs of people that are participating in society? If you do allow this, the result will be very negative from the people doing the work.

Another big point: Nothing is guaranteed in life, and nothing is fair. It doesn’t matter which political party is in control at the time, or what system of government we have that will always be true. The great thing about Capitalism is the smallest person in the world can make it big with a unique idea, or just through shear hard work.

It’s too bad that we as Americans have lost that belief, when others in the world are struggling to get here to take advantage of it. All we seem to be concerned about is if something is fair or not.

]]> By: SouthernDragon http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/#comment-1965351 SouthernDragon Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:30:58 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/#comment-1965351 <p>I’d agree on most of your list but at the top of my disagreements would be term limits. We instituted term limits in FL and it’s an unmitigated disaster here. The county commissions and the state legislature are so corrupt it’s laughable. Lobbyists have become the “old hands” at both levels, write most of the legislation and usually have more influence than commissioners or legislators themselves.</p> I’d agree on most of your list but at the top of my disagreements would be term limits. We instituted term limits in FL and it’s an unmitigated disaster here. The county commissions and the state legislature are so corrupt it’s laughable. Lobbyists have become the “old hands” at both levels, write most of the legislation and usually have more influence than commissioners or legislators themselves.

]]> By: SanderO http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/#comment-1965350 SanderO Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:25:21 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/#comment-1965350 <p>I understand that this is the short hand of Marx and it is a poisoned phrase.</p> <p>How this can change is the $64,000 question.</p> <p>Some steps to get there might be:</p> <p>Term limits<br /> Bust up of media and make more educational public service on the air waves<br /> Bust up monopolies - ALL of them<br /> Bust up cartels and holding companies<br /> preogress tax and close all loop holes<br /> Forbid offshoring of jobs<br /> forbid offshoring of wealth<br /> Public finance of elections<br /> rational curricula in all schools<br /> abolition of the electoral college<br /> abolition of the senate (it’s not democratic)<br /> reigning in of “states rights” which is a crazy quilt of laws</p> <p>there are a million things to add to this list</p> I understand that this is the short hand of Marx and it is a poisoned phrase.

How this can change is the $64,000 question.

Some steps to get there might be:

Term limits
Bust up of media and make more educational public service on the air waves
Bust up monopolies – ALL of them
Bust up cartels and holding companies
preogress tax and close all loop holes
Forbid offshoring of jobs
forbid offshoring of wealth
Public finance of elections
rational curricula in all schools
abolition of the electoral college
abolition of the senate (it’s not democratic)
reigning in of “states rights” which is a crazy quilt of laws

there are a million things to add to this list

]]> By: SanderO http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/#comment-1965349 SanderO Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:19:08 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/#comment-1965349 <p>I think you are naive here Diane. Most critters are red blooded capitalist loving small d democrats.</p> I think you are naive here Diane. Most critters are red blooded capitalist loving small d democrats.

]]> By: SanderO http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/#comment-1965348 SanderO Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:17:15 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/#comment-1965348 <p>Ecahn and DWBartoo show great wisdom.</p> <p>What seems to be part of the problem is the conflict between capital (wealth, greed money, consumerism) and the basic needs of the people, a decent life, access to heath care, decent housing, education, leisure time (happiness) etc. Capital has told you to work to BUY these things in the free (not so) market. Anyone can make it in a “free system” so those who don’t, don’t deserve a thing and certainly not a share in what those who make lots and have way more than they could ever need.</p> <p>A democracy is supposed to represent the interests of the people THROUGH their representatives (in the case of a this one). Money and greed and insinuated into the process and perverted it so that it does NOT respond to the needs and desires of the people.</p> <p>In some, perhaps most cases, consent of the people is manufactured by media propaganda, a failed education system and the influence of the perverted church where too many people go for guidance. There is little chance for wisdom and rational thinking to prevail in the system as it now is.</p> <p>Something has to give.</p> Ecahn and DWBartoo show great wisdom.

What seems to be part of the problem is the conflict between capital (wealth, greed money, consumerism) and the basic needs of the people, a decent life, access to heath care, decent housing, education, leisure time (happiness) etc. Capital has told you to work to BUY these things in the free (not so) market. Anyone can make it in a “free system” so those who don’t, don’t deserve a thing and certainly not a share in what those who make lots and have way more than they could ever need.

A democracy is supposed to represent the interests of the people THROUGH their representatives (in the case of a this one). Money and greed and insinuated into the process and perverted it so that it does NOT respond to the needs and desires of the people.

In some, perhaps most cases, consent of the people is manufactured by media propaganda, a failed education system and the influence of the perverted church where too many people go for guidance. There is little chance for wisdom and rational thinking to prevail in the system as it now is.

Something has to give.

]]> By: SouthernDragon http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/#comment-1965347 SouthernDragon Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:16:46 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/#comment-1965347 <p>And 16 as well. I agree that the Electoral College has long outlived its usefulness, as if it ever were “useful.” </p> <p>One has to be careful with the “owners of the means of production” concept. The phrase scares the hell out of most people, who think it means everything is owned by the government, ie, the people. In manufacturing profit is derived exclusively from labour. How do we ensure that the workers become part owners of the commodities they produce?</p> <p>On edit: The finance industry has taken control of the economy and is a totally different breed of cat to deal with.</p> And 16 as well. I agree that the Electoral College has long outlived its usefulness, as if it ever were “useful.”

One has to be careful with the “owners of the means of production” concept. The phrase scares the hell out of most people, who think it means everything is owned by the government, ie, the people. In manufacturing profit is derived exclusively from labour. How do we ensure that the workers become part owners of the commodities they produce?

On edit: The finance industry has taken control of the economy and is a totally different breed of cat to deal with.

]]> By: twolf1 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/#comment-1965346 twolf1 Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:15:19 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/early-morning-swim-187/#comment-1965346 <p><a href="http://christyhardinsmith.firedoglake.com/2009/08/27/health-care-making-waves-on-womens-reproductive-health-and-choice/" rel="nofollow">Christy is upstairs…</a></p> Christy is upstairs…

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