Morning pups. Here’s what I think. The investigations are going to leak a lot of the really bad stuff –some of which has already come out. This will build pressure to go after the higher-ups. This is just starting. It is also a standing threat to the Republicans, should they become too aggressive against the President. Same goes for the Abramoff investigation. The administration has a lot of cards to play.

I have a little optimisim here;

I kind of think that if the “low level cia” are held to account then we can rest assure the administration will also be held to account

these aren’t midless grunts and they’re not gonna take the fall for cheney and bush, they’re gonna sqwaud louder then you can imagine if they are held to account

the whurlitzer is going to start going all out protecting the “low level cia” so that they don’t talk up a storm

Thanks for the Wilkerson clip, BT. He did a great job.

I keep waiting for powell to finally reclaim some integrity and go after the traitors to this country

powell is a torn man and I believe he can have some penance if he gets on board with his chief of staff

Wilkerson is a man of integrity.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did Team Cheney launch 9/11 in order to indulge is this orgy of sadism, or was the orgy of sadism launched to make it seem like they were serious about getting to the bottom of 9/11?

Good morning, BT, Knut and the rest of you fire-breathing change-bingers.

Indeed, this is just starting, and, despite Holder’s attempts to “holder” this “investrigation” to the Sunstein minimum, pressure IS going to build.

Despite the abject (and intentional) failure of the media, the word is, however slowly, reaching the ears of more and more people.

The “Okay!” to torture children is going to resonate very broadly, and there is no way in hell that THAT can successfully be spun …

DW

So far as I can tell, nobody at the CIA has ever been reprimanded, demoted, or fired for doing this shit. John Brennan who attempted to publicly justify it and likely oversaw some of it has been promoted — in fact, Obama tried to promote him to the directorship. That’s the Obama CIA: keeping the ghouls in place.

Yeah, the children bit really bothers me, too. Why was it okay for the hard right to say “Hands off the children” with regard to Sarah Palin’s kids and yet it’s okay to crush the testicles of KSM’s kids?

ok, wilkerson confirms what I’ve been saying for some time;

the professionals, the “real” cia were NOT on board these programs they were AGAINST them.

I’ve been saying this was “team b” and wilkerson pretty much spells that out, saying “very few people agreed with this program, less then one percent”

I am willing to bet that “less then one percent” amounts to about 100 precent of team b

ghost, you’re not gonna be welcome here too long if you bring up 9/11 every thread

start your own thread over at the seminal but do not take other threads down the discussion we’ve all had too often

listen, I am a person who agrees with most of the points 9/11′ers have to make but I do NOT want to disuss those points on other threads

there is no way in hell that THAT can successfully be spun

Well, the launching of drones to kill civilians is being spun as a good thing.

Tin Man Dan Bartlett on my TV….why O why? To let us know all these disclosures have been looked at, will demoralize the CIA,,,,,and the Admin does not need this. Where do they drag up these people? He was in Minneapolis…Visiting Al? Or Barbara;))

we need to publisize more the fact that yoo gave permission for bush to “crush the testicles of a child”

that’s an ugly self portrait he painted for himself, it needs to get more publicity

The two issues are inextricably linked.

How can anyone fail to see that?

I know what you are saying, but the public really hasn’t “got” what the DRONE business is all about yet, ghost, “new technology” and all that, but t’aint nobody, even here in America don’t know what children are.

Hell, most everybody was one, once upon a time.

“Children” hits close to “home’, no matter who you are.

Even in America.

DW

ghost, you’re not getting it, it doesn’t matter that they’re linked it matters that we want to compartmentalize these threads

start your own thread over at the seminal and I’ll join you there but taking these threads to that wide a burth is not productive and dilutes these discussions

we can also link the coup created by the supreme court that decided the election, we can link the coup supplied by voting machines, we can link tons of things that create too wide a burth and make these threads useless

is that your goal, making all other points useless?…cause that’s what you do when you renew discussions already made

I’m not going to go on with this discussion and that’s the last you’ll hear from me about it and I am not a moderator here, I am trying to give you a heads up cause I like your posts

“The administration has a lot of cards to play.”

I don’t consider dead people a card to play. This isn’t policy differences it’s wanton lawlessness and criminal in nature.
Rendition leads to torture which results in accidental murder which recruits more Patriots defending their country against the invading hordes, which is treason or unending war for the military’s sake. The president continues to carry out kidnapping which is a slippery slope saturated in blood.

Nuremburg now !

It is undisputed that the drones are randomly killing children, but no one except the ghost is making a fuss about it.

perris, life does not compartmentalize.

All roads, for the perpetrators, lead now, sooner or later, to Nuremburg.

The only question is how may more politicians want to climb on the bozo bus.

How many more want to take the ride?

DW

St Pete for Peace Flash Mob at Baywalk 22 Aug.

yes, it does, and it couldn’t move forward if it didn’t, and that’s all you’ll hear from me

Tin Man Dan Bartlett on my TV….why O why? To let us know all these disclosures have been looked at, will demoralize the CIA,,,,,and the Admin does not need this.

On the contrary, it should moralize them. Confession is good for the soul. And prosecution would give the 99% of the CIA who tried to tell the one-percenters that this shit is wrong and would get them in trouble a chance to say, “I told you so.”

Keep making the fuss, ghost.

But trust me, you are not alone in those concerns AND the willingness to speak, consistently and forcefully about them, especially among those here at the lake.

DW

wilkerson gave us a great tool there didn’t he;

“we demoralize those in the cia that protected this country when we do not investigate the criminals who helped recruit terrorists and created more unrest”

I am beginning to think wilerson is pretty close to challenging powell for remaining silent, I think all it will take is an interviewer asking something like, “do you think it’s appropriate powell doesn’t speak on one isde or the other for this issue?”

I think the floodgates will open if wilkerson is asked that or a similar question

Awesome video, SD. Very well done!

Exactly. And, for me, he sort of confirmed my sanity, because I had always suspect that 99% of the CIA would be appalled at and ashamed of this behavior by “the agency.” Most of them are decent people who are proud of their work and believe in it’s importance to the cause of peace. IMHO, that’s especially true of the analysts, who have never been that all so comfortable with the operations spooks.

Why can’t Obama see that the lack of prosecution and the promotion of the guilty is demoralizing to the decent people within the agency.

Dan is one of the most unconvincing folks to come on for commentary..I have no clue why they keep dragging him up….Maybe he is one of the few still willing to talk/go on tv. Cheney issued a response, but we didn’t have to look at him. I am truly curious about Dan…the pop-up

Jesus, let me write that down. I’ve been wrong my whole life. I should have quit every job over every policy disagreement, divorced my wife, disowned my kids, and on and on. Life doesn’t compartmentalize… That way to sanity and progress!

I’ve said before and I’ll say it again, he’d bring it up no matter what subject the thread is on. And once again I’ll say to ghostof911, you got nothing but speculation you’re trying to sell as truth. Give it a fuckin’ rest here, will ya.

I am with Wilkerson.

Clean out the 1%

It’s cancer.

Wish I’d been there. Didn’t even know it was happening. Musta missed the email. The guy with the newspaper is Chris, one of the founders of St Pete for Peace.

Morning, SD…tell us what you really think. Always a pleasure.

heh heh Mornin’, RevBev.

Superb!!! SD.

I kept looking for you in the video and then decided maybe you were the cameraman. Too bad the “flash” missed you, we older types are sometimes a little slow…

I just thought of something. If we all agree about That Conspiracy, maybe we won’t have to hear about it everyday. We could just pretend, for one day or one thread. Would that work?

I’m thinking you are correct, perris.

The floodgates are opening and Obama will get his feet wet if he doesn’t move to higher ground.

DW

I’ll be payin’ better attention. I’ve never actually been inside BayWalk. Risked arrest just by being on their property.

Nice metaphoring. I wish Powell would have spoken out earlier. Taken the high road. But, I’d be happy if he spoke now. Do you think his voice will have more of an affect now than earlier?

SD,

Diddo DWBartoo!

Self-censorship is the beginning of the loss of freedom. Fear is the reckless driver that kills liberty.

OT: Because this is “Early-Morning Swim,” I’m hoping it’s okay to go into other news items that have popped up. And this from the WSJ astonishes me:

The Republican Party issued a new salvo in the health debate Monday with a “seniors’ health care bill of rights” that opposed any moves to trim Medicare spending or limit end-of-life care to seniors.

Intended as a political shot at President Barack Obama, the Republican National Committee manifesto marks a remarkable turnaround for a party that had once fought to trim the health program for the elderly and disabled, which last year cost taxpayers over $330 billion.

The Republican stance also underscores how tough it will be for Mr. Obama to find politically palatable savings to pay for new coverage while reining in spiraling health-care costs.

The Republicans said they aimed to “protect Medicare and not cut it in the name of health-care reform,” in a statement and an accompanying op-ed written by RNC Chairman Michael Steele and published in Monday’s Washington Post.

The party also vowed to oppose any Democratic effort to ration care or to insert the government between seniors and their doctors.

WTF? Since when has the GOP wanted to anything but drown Medicare in the bath tub?

My suggestion appears to not have been accepted. I was mostly joking anyway. Just trying to think outside the box.

Well said!

And absolutely true.

DW

Sometimes, good ideas take a while to catch on, demi.

And yours, is an excellent idea.

DW

Off to swim in the great capitalist cesspool.

US KIA Irak: 4334

US KIA Afghanistan: 802

Be good to yourselves, and all other living things.

Namaste

Namaste, SD

Why don’t we leave it up to moderators to determine if someone or a topic is out of line.

Christy is upstairs…

It’s not that we don’t have the same questions. What we don’t have are answers with proof to back them up. As evil as I think the Bush administration was I’m not going to accuse another person of something I can’t prove. I’ve seen all the “documentaries” and have yet to see any proof of anything. Questions? Yeah, I’ve got lots of questions but after all is said and done I still end up with only questions.

HOW do you prosecute people for FOLLOWING ILLEGAL ORDERS TOO ILLEGALLY? Isn’t this like going after the hit men without going after the bosses who issued the hit orders? WHY does it make any difference what torture methods were or were not used? Are they going to claim that the torturers violated the law by executing ILLEGAL ORDERS to TORTURE TOO HARSHLY?

Thank you, David. Since arguing doesn’t seem to work, it rarely is affective in my experience, I was trying for something a little zennish. *g*

You mean like Lyndie England leading to…

Anyone know if any habeas corpus petitions have been filed on behalf of the KSM’s children? If not, I hope this will be done to ferret out their present location and condition, if not details on what actually was done to them.

Question . . .

Proposal(s) on how to reestablish manufacturing jobs? Specifically, which sector will gain support early?

With the economy in this downturn, it appears that now might be the opportunity to begin this goal. I’m off to work, but your thoughts will be appreciated.

Agreed, but others will push what they “believe” and often ’tis better, to just ignore than be vexed, ‘cuz your vexation (and mine as well) rarely changes the behavior of others.

To point out that impact and even the willingness of others to pay any further attention is diminished, a demonstrable fact, makes no difference to those who aren’t willing to see the effect they are having on others.

I wish I had an answer to that, I’ve thought about it enough. I do think we’re going to have to start small and locally, making necessities like clothing, household goods and basic tools that are now made overseas. I also think any enterprise should be employee owned and controlled. No more corporate culture. Where do we get the capital to start? How do we compete with cheap foreign products? Lots of questions.

Befehl ist befehl!

I think you’re right, Knut. The whole torture investigation topic has been conducted as a PR “simmer” by the administration, as they drop new little “revelations” into the news stream on a regular basis. If and when public opinion finally “forces their hand,” Justice will pursue the issue. If popular outrage becomes serious and widespread enough, they may actually prosecute the criminals who ordered the CIA to commit abduction and torture. If prosecuting the real crimimals is not a clear political winner, they may limit the investigation to only agents who overstepped their explicit authorization (e.g., “You may beat them, but no pistol-whipping”).

The overriding legacy of the Bush era is that ALL government action is political. Nowhere does it seem as clear as in the torture case that the Obama administration has taken that lesson to heart.