Comments on: Love of Liberty and Health Care in America http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/ Firedoglake weblog Fri, 17 Feb 2012 20:30:15 -0600 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: Glenn W. Smith http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/#comment-1962976 Glenn W. Smith Sun, 23 Aug 2009 20:11:19 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/#comment-1962976 <p>Your observation is well-taken. Herger and the Right have an authoritarian worldview and completely different versions of democracy and freedom. In that view, there is no responsibility to others. In fact, it’s immoral as they see it. Liberty is achieved by following authority. They believe it when they say they’re for personal liberty, it just means something radically different to them.</p> <p>A great problem has been the progressive reluctance to contest the Right’s conception of freedom and democracy. We argue for the policies, we use the facts, but we don’t articulate our own moral vision. And that gives them an advantage.</p> <p>Thanks for pointing out the Herger bit. It helps highlight a very important matter.</p> Your observation is well-taken. Herger and the Right have an authoritarian worldview and completely different versions of democracy and freedom. In that view, there is no responsibility to others. In fact, it’s immoral as they see it. Liberty is achieved by following authority. They believe it when they say they’re for personal liberty, it just means something radically different to them.

A great problem has been the progressive reluctance to contest the Right’s conception of freedom and democracy. We argue for the policies, we use the facts, but we don’t articulate our own moral vision. And that gives them an advantage.

Thanks for pointing out the Herger bit. It helps highlight a very important matter.

]]> By: Glenn W. Smith http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/#comment-1962970 Glenn W. Smith Sun, 23 Aug 2009 20:02:57 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/#comment-1962970 <p>Thank you, tinman, but I’m betting you’re an open-minded person to whom searching, questioning and mind-changing are not all that uncommon.</p> Thank you, tinman, but I’m betting you’re an open-minded person to whom searching, questioning and mind-changing are not all that uncommon.

]]> By: TomR http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/#comment-1962967 TomR Sun, 23 Aug 2009 20:00:50 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/#comment-1962967 <p>What’s interesting Glenn is both you and Rep. Wally Herger both reframe health care reform as a battle for our democracy.</p> <p><a href="http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/7479" rel="nofollow">http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/7479</a></p> <p>And in the grander scheme of things, that’s true. But, Herger falsely frames reform as destroying our democracy. I think that the life-and-death nature of health reform, truthfully and passionately framed, would be enough to appeal to the American public.</p> <p>I’ve gotten so sick of the manipulation tactic that we’re beaten over the head with by the likes of Rep. Herger and the right-wing that I felt compelled to blog it out.</p> <p>- Tom</p> What’s interesting Glenn is both you and Rep. Wally Herger both reframe health care reform as a battle for our democracy.

http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/7479

And in the grander scheme of things, that’s true. But, Herger falsely frames reform as destroying our democracy. I think that the life-and-death nature of health reform, truthfully and passionately framed, would be enough to appeal to the American public.

I’ve gotten so sick of the manipulation tactic that we’re beaten over the head with by the likes of Rep. Herger and the right-wing that I felt compelled to blog it out.

- Tom

]]> By: Gitcheegumee http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/#comment-1962962 Gitcheegumee Sun, 23 Aug 2009 19:52:53 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/#comment-1962962 <p>Ever since “Civics” was deleted from school curriculum, it appears as though we have become less “Civil”-ized as a society,imho.</p> Ever since “Civics” was deleted from school curriculum, it appears as though we have become less “Civil”-ized as a society,imho.

]]> By: solerso http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/#comment-1962956 solerso Sun, 23 Aug 2009 19:46:00 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/#comment-1962956 <p>right, except what if a “better” society could be ahieved through genocide, or selective breeding?</p> right, except what if a “better” society could be ahieved through genocide, or selective breeding?

]]> By: tinman1967 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/#comment-1962953 tinman1967 Sun, 23 Aug 2009 19:43:02 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/#comment-1962953 <p>Excellent!<br /> It made me think and even change some of my beliefs. That rarely happens.</p> Excellent!
It made me think and even change some of my beliefs. That rarely happens.

]]> By: Gitcheegumee http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/#comment-1962937 Gitcheegumee Sun, 23 Aug 2009 19:28:17 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/#comment-1962937 <p>Just out of curiousity, I wonder what percentage of the world’s countries who provide their citizens with health care,consider themselves democracies?</p> Just out of curiousity, I wonder what percentage of the world’s countries who provide their citizens with health care,consider themselves democracies?

]]> By: Glenn W. Smith http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/#comment-1962913 Glenn W. Smith Sun, 23 Aug 2009 19:11:15 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/#comment-1962913 <p>Well, we are morally superior. :) The real problem is when we take the air of superiority but don’t articulate the morality and the values.</p> <p>While this is a little off your point, I’ll take the opportunity to say that I wouldn’t live my life the way I try to (emphasis on ‘try’) if I didn’t believe deep in my heart that my moral views were worth defending. One of the practices essential to this moral view, however, is constant questioning of oneself. There is no position of privilege in the end, it is a matter of what seems the best fit for the universe and humanity from the our limited perspective.</p> <p>It is the unquestioning superiority of all authoritarians that needs contesting. When the try to ridicule, we bite.</p> Well, we are morally superior. :) The real problem is when we take the air of superiority but don’t articulate the morality and the values.

While this is a little off your point, I’ll take the opportunity to say that I wouldn’t live my life the way I try to (emphasis on ‘try’) if I didn’t believe deep in my heart that my moral views were worth defending. One of the practices essential to this moral view, however, is constant questioning of oneself. There is no position of privilege in the end, it is a matter of what seems the best fit for the universe and humanity from the our limited perspective.

It is the unquestioning superiority of all authoritarians that needs contesting. When the try to ridicule, we bite.

]]> By: Mommybrain http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/#comment-1962903 Mommybrain Sun, 23 Aug 2009 18:58:24 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/#comment-1962903 <p>Ahhhhh, Smith Sunday.</p> <p>The love of liberty is the love of others; the love of power is the love of ourselves.</p> <p>In full Rovian spirit, this is often read by The Other as “an air of moral superiority’ and mercilessly ridiculed.</p> Ahhhhh, Smith Sunday.

The love of liberty is the love of others; the love of power is the love of ourselves.

In full Rovian spirit, this is often read by The Other as “an air of moral superiority’ and mercilessly ridiculed.

]]> By: unionave http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/#comment-1962867 unionave Sun, 23 Aug 2009 18:30:43 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/23/love-of-liberty-and-health-care-in-america/#comment-1962867 <p>This article describes the present situation in great depth . For the past several years Republicans have stood up and defended each other and their administration , on talk shows , and in print . Remember the defense of Rush after he was caught with his hand deep in the cookie jar ? Regardless of what was done they are a team that sticks together . The Democrats are a completely different group of people . At the slightest hint of a defamatory remark from the Republicans the Democrats join in the chorus and sing louder than the Republicans . Even talk show mouths like Big Ed and B.P. are going at it . But I think their problem is also maybe not getting a front row seat or not called on to ask a question . My advice is , if you are on a sinking ship do not get in the life boat with Big Ed . He might just pull the plug and drown everybody because of one person he gets ”P” ed off at . The only reason the Dems won the last two elections was because of the pain inflicted by the Repubs . Energy costs , health care costs , food prices , sneaky little tax hikes , and blatant crimes just did the the Repubs in , and even their media control wasn’t enough to get them a win . But their loss was not by a wide margin and they are working hard to not loose more ground . And with all the help the Dems are giving them they WILL return . And when they do it will be with a vengeance .</p> This article describes the present situation in great depth . For the past several years Republicans have stood up and defended each other and their administration , on talk shows , and in print . Remember the defense of Rush after he was caught with his hand deep in the cookie jar ? Regardless of what was done they are a team that sticks together . The Democrats are a completely different group of people . At the slightest hint of a defamatory remark from the Republicans the Democrats join in the chorus and sing louder than the Republicans . Even talk show mouths like Big Ed and B.P. are going at it . But I think their problem is also maybe not getting a front row seat or not called on to ask a question . My advice is , if you are on a sinking ship do not get in the life boat with Big Ed . He might just pull the plug and drown everybody because of one person he gets ”P” ed off at . The only reason the Dems won the last two elections was because of the pain inflicted by the Repubs . Energy costs , health care costs , food prices , sneaky little tax hikes , and blatant crimes just did the the Repubs in , and even their media control wasn’t enough to get them a win . But their loss was not by a wide margin and they are working hard to not loose more ground . And with all the help the Dems are giving them they WILL return . And when they do it will be with a vengeance .

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