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	<title>Comments on: No More &#8220;Don&#8217;t Ask, Don&#8217;t Tell&#8221; in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America</title>
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	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/</link>
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		<title>By: Sara</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/#comment-1962194</link>
		<dc:creator>Sara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 01:48:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/#comment-1962194</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Folk should appreciate how long and hard the road was for the ELCA to finally come to this point.  I know back around the mid 80’s there was some survey research done on the matter, and only about 10% within what would become ELCA (it was then three Synods) really approved of acceptance and Civil Rights for Gays and Lesbians.  The decision reflects years of labor on the part of church members and Clergy to change basic attitudes.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I listened with interest as Minnesota Public Radio broadcast much coverage from the Convention this week, thinking much of the time about two friends of mine who died of AIDS in the mid-1980’s, and how they struggled with their own Lutheran Congregations, (ALC at the time) to accept them as a couple, and accept and support their struggle with their disease.  In both cases, before they died, they were able to bring their own congregations, little bitty ones in rural Minnesota, around — open them up to the key questions they would have to struggle with over the years.  Dick Hansen and Bert Henningson’s story was the core of a St. Paul Pioneer Press series called Aids in the Heartland, which won a Pulitizer Prize for the paper, and was researched, and eventually rejected for Hollywood Treatment in the place that was eventually taken by “Philadelphis Story” — Tom Hanks wanted to do an AIDS story — and Hansen and Henningson’s story came in Second.  All this week I kept thinking about Bert and Dick and the effort they put into bringing their own small congregations around back in 1986 and 88, How pleased they would be with this outcome.  For those who want to place these two — Dick Hansen was, when he died, a member of the Democratic National Committee from Minnesota (he was replaced on the Committee by Paul Wellstone.)  Dick and Bert worked with Jesse Jackson after Jackson’s first run in 1984 to stop Farm Forclosures, Dick helped organize the Tractor March on DC.  Bert had a PhD in Agricultural Economics, and was known around the world for his work on Sustainable Agriculture, and in the late 70’s and early 1980’s was chief of the Research Staff for the Democrats on the House Agriculture Committee in DC. They actually fell in love with each other at a DFL State Convention, and decided to become an “out” couple — and they took up organic pig farming in Polk County Minnesota.  They were diagnosed shortly after the test for AIDS became available, and decided to be very public about their circumstances so as to advocate for Gay rights and acceptance.  I think some of what happened this week owes a little bit to their accomplishment…one small rural congregation at a time.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Since then there are thousands of folk who contributed to what happened at the Convention Center this week — each with their own story.  The Minnesota Post links to some excellent stories of great labor over these many years.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Folk should appreciate how long and hard the road was for the ELCA to finally come to this point.  I know back around the mid 80’s there was some survey research done on the matter, and only about 10% within what would become ELCA (it was then three Synods) really approved of acceptance and Civil Rights for Gays and Lesbians.  The decision reflects years of labor on the part of church members and Clergy to change basic attitudes.</p>
<p>I listened with interest as Minnesota Public Radio broadcast much coverage from the Convention this week, thinking much of the time about two friends of mine who died of AIDS in the mid-1980’s, and how they struggled with their own Lutheran Congregations, (ALC at the time) to accept them as a couple, and accept and support their struggle with their disease.  In both cases, before they died, they were able to bring their own congregations, little bitty ones in rural Minnesota, around — open them up to the key questions they would have to struggle with over the years.  Dick Hansen and Bert Henningson’s story was the core of a St. Paul Pioneer Press series called Aids in the Heartland, which won a Pulitizer Prize for the paper, and was researched, and eventually rejected for Hollywood Treatment in the place that was eventually taken by “Philadelphis Story” — Tom Hanks wanted to do an AIDS story — and Hansen and Henningson’s story came in Second.  All this week I kept thinking about Bert and Dick and the effort they put into bringing their own small congregations around back in 1986 and 88, How pleased they would be with this outcome.  For those who want to place these two — Dick Hansen was, when he died, a member of the Democratic National Committee from Minnesota (he was replaced on the Committee by Paul Wellstone.)  Dick and Bert worked with Jesse Jackson after Jackson’s first run in 1984 to stop Farm Forclosures, Dick helped organize the Tractor March on DC.  Bert had a PhD in Agricultural Economics, and was known around the world for his work on Sustainable Agriculture, and in the late 70’s and early 1980’s was chief of the Research Staff for the Democrats on the House Agriculture Committee in DC. They actually fell in love with each other at a DFL State Convention, and decided to become an “out” couple — and they took up organic pig farming in Polk County Minnesota.  They were diagnosed shortly after the test for AIDS became available, and decided to be very public about their circumstances so as to advocate for Gay rights and acceptance.  I think some of what happened this week owes a little bit to their accomplishment…one small rural congregation at a time.  </p>
<p>Since then there are thousands of folk who contributed to what happened at the Convention Center this week — each with their own story.  The Minnesota Post links to some excellent stories of great labor over these many years.</p>
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		<title>By: EnfantTerrible</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/#comment-1962193</link>
		<dc:creator>EnfantTerrible</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 01:38:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/#comment-1962193</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;In my childhood neighborhood in Minneapolis, there were Lutheran churches where you could worship in German, Norwegian or Swedish.  Nowadays, many of these same churches are home to Vietnamese, Hmong and Cambodian speaking congregations, but I’m getting away from my point already.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Anyway, I’m a 3rd generation Norwegian who grew up Lutheran.  Scandinavian Lutherans are pretty dogmatic about their religion and aren’t always inclusive.  But they have a strong sense of justice and fair play that eventually wins over dogma and exclusion.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It’s like that with the ELCA today.  They are very committed to doctrinal discipline, that is to say, when you go to different ELCA churches, you know what kind of theology you’re getting.  Learning to “agree to disagree” was a struggle for the ELCA that lasted for decades.  But that Scandinavian sense of fair play and justice won!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Before moving to California, I was a member of St. Paul-Reformation Lutheran Church in St. Paul, MN.  This was the church that ordained Anita C. Hill, a open lesbian, back in 2001.  What I remember most about my experience at St. Paul-Ref was the number of gay, lesbian and transsexual people coming to worship there.  Most of them grew up in good, Christian families - many of them were ostracized by their former church communities and even their families.  They re-immersed themselves in the faith they grew up in.  They heard once again the gospel stories and understood that they were welcome to partake of God’s promises.  And it moved them to tears.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I still get misty-eyed thinking about it.  I am no longer a believer myself, but I say that something important and wonderful happened at the ELCA convention.  They have taken big steps to becoming the kind of welcoming, affirming faith community that Jesus modeled during his earthly ministry.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my childhood neighborhood in Minneapolis, there were Lutheran churches where you could worship in German, Norwegian or Swedish.  Nowadays, many of these same churches are home to Vietnamese, Hmong and Cambodian speaking congregations, but I’m getting away from my point already.</p>
<p>Anyway, I’m a 3rd generation Norwegian who grew up Lutheran.  Scandinavian Lutherans are pretty dogmatic about their religion and aren’t always inclusive.  But they have a strong sense of justice and fair play that eventually wins over dogma and exclusion.</p>
<p>It’s like that with the ELCA today.  They are very committed to doctrinal discipline, that is to say, when you go to different ELCA churches, you know what kind of theology you’re getting.  Learning to “agree to disagree” was a struggle for the ELCA that lasted for decades.  But that Scandinavian sense of fair play and justice won!</p>
<p>Before moving to California, I was a member of St. Paul-Reformation Lutheran Church in St. Paul, MN.  This was the church that ordained Anita C. Hill, a open lesbian, back in 2001.  What I remember most about my experience at St. Paul-Ref was the number of gay, lesbian and transsexual people coming to worship there.  Most of them grew up in good, Christian families &#8211; many of them were ostracized by their former church communities and even their families.  They re-immersed themselves in the faith they grew up in.  They heard once again the gospel stories and understood that they were welcome to partake of God’s promises.  And it moved them to tears.  </p>
<p>I still get misty-eyed thinking about it.  I am no longer a believer myself, but I say that something important and wonderful happened at the ELCA convention.  They have taken big steps to becoming the kind of welcoming, affirming faith community that Jesus modeled during his earthly ministry.</p>
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		<title>By: AngelsAwake</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/#comment-1962141</link>
		<dc:creator>AngelsAwake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 23:02:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/#comment-1962141</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Luther would have wondered how the hell the idea of Christians being stupid ever got started.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Luther would have wondered how the hell the idea of Christians being stupid ever got started.</p>
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		<title>By: AngelsAwake</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/#comment-1962140</link>
		<dc:creator>AngelsAwake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 23:01:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/#comment-1962140</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;God bless you, Peterr. As an extremely religious Christian myself, I’m often forced to have a gut-level rejection of churches and other religious people, since where I live, being religious means you’re a moron. I often feel like I’m the only guy out here who IS a Christian progressive.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Thank you for showing me that not everyone’s a damn idiot. Hell, I might even have to go Lutheran myself.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>God bless you, Peterr. As an extremely religious Christian myself, I’m often forced to have a gut-level rejection of churches and other religious people, since where I live, being religious means you’re a moron. I often feel like I’m the only guy out here who IS a Christian progressive.</p>
<p>Thank you for showing me that not everyone’s a damn idiot. Hell, I might even have to go Lutheran myself.</p>
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		<title>By: shag11</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/#comment-1962021</link>
		<dc:creator>shag11</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 21:08:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/#comment-1962021</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;It’s good to see a church organization walk in the proverbial footsteps of Jesus.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It’s good to see a church organization walk in the proverbial footsteps of Jesus.</p>
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		<title>By: shag11</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/#comment-1962016</link>
		<dc:creator>shag11</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 21:06:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/#comment-1962016</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Bravo.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bravo.</p>
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		<title>By: tjbs</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/#comment-1962010</link>
		<dc:creator>tjbs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 20:57:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/#comment-1962010</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The closer i get to the end the less i worry about how others…..&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The closer i get to the end the less i worry about how others…..</p>
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		<title>By: techno</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/#comment-1962006</link>
		<dc:creator>techno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 18:42:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/#comment-1962006</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Goodness, I hope not!  I think the Southern Baptists are so completely confused about Christianity I have no idea why they even bother to call themselves Christians.  Martin Luther was a Ph.D. and first-rate intellectual.  I have NO idea how he would react to the Jesus-wants-you-to-be-ignorant crowd but I assume he would be horrified.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Goodness, I hope not!  I think the Southern Baptists are so completely confused about Christianity I have no idea why they even bother to call themselves Christians.  Martin Luther was a Ph.D. and first-rate intellectual.  I have NO idea how he would react to the Jesus-wants-you-to-be-ignorant crowd but I assume he would be horrified.</p>
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		<title>By: judybrowni</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/#comment-1962004</link>
		<dc:creator>judybrowni</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 18:37:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/#comment-1962004</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;To Kentuckywoman: “hedonist” gays, well, I lived in New York and Los Angeles, where “hedonist” heterosexuals outnumber gays by multitudes.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;God made them, too, and to use your argument that condemns the whole of hetersexuality.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I have a gay brother and a gay sister, each is as God made them from day one — I grew up with them, and neither has changed a whit.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Except for one thing: each found the partner they would stay with (but not be allowed to marry) over 35 years ago.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;35 years, 35 years of love, dedication, mortages and, yes, a child: and my sister and her partner were finally able to marry last year, but church bigots have put her marriage in legal limbo with the lying Prop 8.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;My brother and his partner are still being denied marriage in their state, after 35 years together, and religious bigots are a large part of that denial. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;One part of that bigotry threatens my brother’s health: he’s been laid off after 17 years at the company, and when his COBRA health insurance runs out, he can’t be put on his partner (of 35 years) health insurance because they can’t be married in that state.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Religious bigotry is threatening my brother’s health. YOU and others like you, are threatening my brother’s health by forcing your interpretation religion on the rest of us.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;God made my brother and sister who they are: are you saying God is wrong?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Homosexuality is rife in the natural world, turns up in nearly every species. Are you saying God is wrong?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Your interpretation of religion is no longer shared by the Lutherans, Episcopalians, Unitarians, Reformed Judaism, Church of Christ — perhaps God made a mistake when he created YOU.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Or perhaps your (bigoted, yes it is) thinking is the error.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Kentuckywoman: “hedonist” gays, well, I lived in New York and Los Angeles, where “hedonist” heterosexuals outnumber gays by multitudes.</p>
<p>God made them, too, and to use your argument that condemns the whole of hetersexuality.</p>
<p>I have a gay brother and a gay sister, each is as God made them from day one — I grew up with them, and neither has changed a whit.</p>
<p>Except for one thing: each found the partner they would stay with (but not be allowed to marry) over 35 years ago.</p>
<p>35 years, 35 years of love, dedication, mortages and, yes, a child: and my sister and her partner were finally able to marry last year, but church bigots have put her marriage in legal limbo with the lying Prop 8.</p>
<p>My brother and his partner are still being denied marriage in their state, after 35 years together, and religious bigots are a large part of that denial. </p>
<p>One part of that bigotry threatens my brother’s health: he’s been laid off after 17 years at the company, and when his COBRA health insurance runs out, he can’t be put on his partner (of 35 years) health insurance because they can’t be married in that state.</p>
<p>Religious bigotry is threatening my brother’s health. YOU and others like you, are threatening my brother’s health by forcing your interpretation religion on the rest of us.</p>
<p>God made my brother and sister who they are: are you saying God is wrong?</p>
<p>Homosexuality is rife in the natural world, turns up in nearly every species. Are you saying God is wrong?</p>
<p>Your interpretation of religion is no longer shared by the Lutherans, Episcopalians, Unitarians, Reformed Judaism, Church of Christ — perhaps God made a mistake when he created YOU.</p>
<p>Or perhaps your (bigoted, yes it is) thinking is the error.</p>
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		<title>By: techno</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/#comment-1962002</link>
		<dc:creator>techno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 18:36:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/22/no-more-dont-ask-dont-tell-in-the-evangelical-lutheran-church-in-america/#comment-1962002</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Maybe I can help.  For 14 years, I lived in the “gayest” neighborhood in St. Paul.  At LEAST half of my neighbors were gay.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;At first this bothered me.  I had moved to that old Victorian neighborhood for political / city planning reasons.  I didn’t understand how or why this neighborhood would also attract people who merely liked things fabulous.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But as time went by, I discovered that my gay neighbors were easily the best neighbors I had ever had in my life.  And since most of them were so clearly different from me in so many significant ways, I become utterly convinced that gayness was a natural condition like left-handedness.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So let’s see–my gay neighbors made my life more beautiful, were geniuses at community organizing, and didn’t hit on my significant other.  What was not to like???&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Oh yeah, there’s the “ick” factor.  As I grew older, I discovered the only sex life I was really interested in was my own.  So I just decided I wouldn’t think about what gays do for each other in their bedrooms.  With that out of the way, I could enjoy my nearly-perfect neighbors again.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Try it.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I can help.  For 14 years, I lived in the “gayest” neighborhood in St. Paul.  At LEAST half of my neighbors were gay.</p>
<p>At first this bothered me.  I had moved to that old Victorian neighborhood for political / city planning reasons.  I didn’t understand how or why this neighborhood would also attract people who merely liked things fabulous.</p>
<p>But as time went by, I discovered that my gay neighbors were easily the best neighbors I had ever had in my life.  And since most of them were so clearly different from me in so many significant ways, I become utterly convinced that gayness was a natural condition like left-handedness.</p>
<p>So let’s see–my gay neighbors made my life more beautiful, were geniuses at community organizing, and didn’t hit on my significant other.  What was not to like???</p>
<p>Oh yeah, there’s the “ick” factor.  As I grew older, I discovered the only sex life I was really interested in was my own.  So I just decided I wouldn’t think about what gays do for each other in their bedrooms.  With that out of the way, I could enjoy my nearly-perfect neighbors again.</p>
<p>Try it.</p>
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