What a great step forward. Applause for the ELCA – forward thinking. I know you are pleased, Peterr.

I’d like to think that the Lutherans have seen the light and are liberalizing their policies because it’s the right thing to do. But the fact that the faithful have been leaving mainstream churches in recent decades probably has a lot to do with this policy shift. When parishioners in my midwestern Catholic church were bailing out in huge numbers back in the 60’s and 70’s, we suddenly were treated to guitar Masses, all sorts of groovy hand-holding ceremonies, and bright and happy interior decorating changes in the churches.

I’m so happy for you. The Methodists aren’t there yet. Not as a body. There are many who are spiritually evolved, but there are still too many conservative minds to make a change. My minister has stopped performing marriages since he was told not to do any for gays. He’s said, If I can’t marry any couple, I’ll marry no couples. He’s making an exception for my daughter, who just happens to be marrying a man, but whom my pastor has watched grow up.
Great news. We have to keep pushing for Open Hearts.

Pleased doesn’t begin to describe it.

Tired, too — it has taken a lot of work on the part of lots of people to help move our church to take this step.

It is much easier to understand the ELCA move when you understand the the vast majority of such Lutherans are ethnic Scandinavians. Of course, not all of us are “liberals” or tolerant–Karl Rove is an ethnic Norwegian-American, for example. But it should be no surprise that where there are Lutherans, the politics tend to look very Nordic. (As a straight guy, I really have no dog in this fight, but I am delighted the ELCA has chosen the road it has taken. I was much more pleased to see that the ELCA was one of the versions of Christianity that was VERY opposed to the invasion of Iraq.)

Hiya Peterr! Hiya Firepups!

What other denominations let openly gay ministers and preachers?

Good news. Where the church(es) lead, the state(s) will eventually follow.

Unitarian Universalists. I know, they don’t count to the evangelicals, but still.

The Episcopal Church, the United Church of Christ, and Unitarian/Universalists allow open and practicing gays and lesbians to serve as priests/pastors/clergy. A variety of others allow gays and lesbians to serve but only with the condition that they remain celibate.

If you are talking only about gays and not lesbians, the Roman Catholics would fit that description. Catholics will not allow women — straight or lesbian — to serve as priests.

I’m sure my ELCA family in Georgia will be more than happy to sit back and allow the right-wing (non) Christian zealots to be the voice of “Christians” on this topic, just as they have been more than willing to allow, if not pander to, those voices once regarded as religious crackpots to dominate the political and social landscape of the past decade. We used to be proud to be part of the tolerant religious mainstream (relatively speaking, it was the South of the 60’s & 70’s).

Oh, but I wish you were right. But the truth is, we Lutes have almost no influence whatsoever on the national level. If Swedish Lutherans ran this country, we would consider single payer health care a right-wing plot, we would honor international bodies like the UN (remember Dag Hammarskjold) and we wouldn’t be so warlike (Sweden, once the MOST warlike country on earth, has not been a war since 1814–so cultural evolution IS possible).

Honestly, I figure we Lutes have about the same political influence in USA as say, the Sikhs.

As I listened to the hours of debate, I did notice that a sizable chunk of the voices in opposition were from the south, as well as one of the more conservative parts of Minnesota.

Peterr do you think there is a bigger divide now between liberal churches and fundy churches or between Christian religion and other religions?

I’m not concerned as much about the national level for the time being. As churches relax their opposition it provides some cover for state politicians to do the same. As more states say, legalize same sex marriage it provides cover for and increases pressure on other states to do the same. When a majority of states accept same-sex marriage it can be concluded that there is a national consensus and then the last holdouts (presumably some of the Southern states) can be compelled to go along.

I think it depends on what you are talking about. Both can be pretty big divides.

There has been a growing sense of cooperation between the more liberal churches and non-Christian religions in projects like disaster relief, care for the poor, and the international efforts to reduce third world debt. The fundy churches, on the other hand, are more likely to want to cooperate only with people who believe as they do.

There is also tension in some of their cooperative work between those who want to (for instance) build a hospital to care for the ill and those who want to use the hospital project as cover for doing evangelism work. (The worst examples of the latter divert money that was designated for construction, medicines, etc. into more specifically religious work like funding missionaries and such. That kind of bait-and-switch makes inter-faith work very difficult, especially in the non-Western world.

“I was much more pleased to see that the ELCA was one of the versions of Christianity that was VERY opposed to the invasion of Iraq.”

The ELCA leadership will almost always take the liberal position eventually but how much did it really mean in terms of the attitudes of their congregants wrt Iraq? Were most sermons which hinted at opposition to the war “balanced” by flag flying and prayers for “the troops” which, as much as one might make the distinction between the soldier and the policy, allowed everyone to leave the church having done their duty.

Sorry to be so down on this and I know I am generalizing, but I am still furious at the way the mainstream church chose comfort and survival over activism on Iraq.

Congratulations! We made the transition about ten years ago from theory (The Buddha didn’t discriminate against anyone, but we had the same cultural biases as the rest of the US) to practice. Now, we have GLBT groups as a main-stream part of our “church” and even retreats specifically for this demographic. Karma’s a bitch, but it can be changed with perseverance.

I don’t know about “most sermons”, but from the clergy colleagues I know personally, there was very little flag waving and lots of sorrow over an unnecessary war and unjustifiable killing.

But since most ELCA pastors aren’t television personalities like Rick Warren who get lots of media attention, most folks would never know this.

This really makes me happy and I am neither Lutheran nor gay. Color me Benthamite: greatest good for the greatest number. While I’d kinda like to be happy myself, nothing could please me more than if everyone were happier than me.

As Peterr knows but SnarKassandra might not, social service institutions of some mainstream churches (Lutheran, Catholic, Jewish to name three) have long been able to receive government funds for charitable work because they understood and abided by the rules against propagation of religious dogma in carrying out their charitable missions. Bush’s so called opening up of government funds to religious charities meant nothing more then allowing right-wingers to evangelize on the government dime. Obama, in his campaign, did nothing to clarify this distinction, thus endorsing the notion that including religious groups in government funded social services was a new and positive trend.

This really makes me happy and I am neither Lutheran nor gay.

Not to worry, both have an open door policy regarding converts.:)

Again, I speak from my observations in the south, so I apologize for unjust generalizations and I don’t endorse church sponsored political action, but were members of those congregations moved by their religious convictions to speak out or organize as Christians against the war?

Yes, it is called the faith based initiatives, in case JLML didn’t know the name.

Good question.

Here’s my favorite story about the ELCA in the run-up to the Iraq invasion. Mark Hansen, the head of ELCA wrote a powerful piece condemning the invasion plans. My neighbor at the time, the preacher at one of Minnesota’s most historically significant Norwegian-American churches, took Hansen’s thesis and like a good Lutheran, nailed it to the church’s door. In a modern twist, he had the thing laminated first.

How much influence did it have with the congregation, I have no idea. But recall that in 2002, Paul Wellstone was in a tight race but when he voted to oppose the invasion of Iraq just before the election, his poll numbers shot up. My take on that was Minnesota voters were FAR ahead of the most “liberal” guy in the Senate on the subject of peace in the Middle East. Still are. Al Franken got 365,000 fewer votes than Obama–mostly because he was viewed as a warmonger–triggering a long and very tedious recount. So over time, a peace agenda does make some difference.

Thanks. Memory is more the problem. My every second is a senior moment.

A hopeful story. One question – was the door red?

Again, I speak from my observations in the south,

I am a Lutheran preacher’s kid from rural Minnesota so please trust me on this–and we are about as for from being Southern Baptists as is possible considering that a census taker would call us both Protestants. Just remember, The Lutheran Church has been part of the governments in Scandinavia for hundreds of years. The difference between Lutherans and Baptists is about a great as the difference between Helsinki and Montgomery Alabama.

No, it was a beautiful weather-beaten white oak from a nearby woods. Why do you ask?

I grew up Lutheran, was confirmed and joined the Lutheran Church. I’m now United Methodist, but I’ve never really been much of a mainstream religion type of person. However, I still consider myself a Christian, and I have to say that I’m really torn by this issue. While I intellectually embrace this ideology, something gnaws at me that it isn’t quite right.

Over the years, I have had several friends and acquaintances that were gay, so I’m not a stranger to their thoughts, feelings, and lifestyle. On the one hand, I have learned that gays and lesbians have the same domestic issues that the rest of us have, i.e., heterosexuals, including domestic violence, cheating on one’s significant other, worries about health, finances, the house, etc. But on the other hand, I have also seen the side that is repulsive to me – the “in your face” sexuality, the blatant orgy-like behavior, back-rooms of bars, coffee houses, etc., where gays go to “hook up”, albeit briefly. There is a gay lifestyle that supports this hedonistic, very decidedly un-Christian behavior, and that is what I cannot support. It seems very Dionysus-like to me, and we all know the thinly veiled evil of his followers’ behavior.

Plus, while I do believe that MOST gays are simply born that way, I do NOT believe that it was God’s plan for mankind. I just believe that it’s biology gone a little haywire. If we were all gay or lesbian, how would we reproduce? Via test tube and artificial insemination? Plus, there are just SO MANY verses in the Bible that talk about homosexuality as being an abomination to God. I have a hard time getting past that one, in particular. I just don’t find any verses in the Bible that condone homosexuality. Are there any? Are we really willing to ignore that?

An old pastor of mine once told me that in seminary, it was discussed the duality of the nature of God, i.e., male and female. For that reason, he refused to refer to God as “Him” and only referred to God as “God.” My pastor said that in seminary, he was taught that this subject was “hidden” from congregations because church leaders thought it would only confuse people. Well, I’m confused about the whole homosexuality in church thing. If God created us in his own image, male and female, then that basically says that God intended us to be male and female. If he created man and woman, then God intended us to behave as men and women.

Deep down in my soul, I just don’t think God created men and women to be with their own kind – I believe he created them to be with each other. What troubles me, as a Christian, is that the Bible says that human beings are God’s masterpiece of creation. The Bible also says that Satan wants to be God, but he can’t create. He can only counterfeit. He can also subvert the Word of God and deceive God’s people. So in a way, couldn’t it be that this is Satan’s way of “creating” and deceiving God’s people?

I really wrestle with this one, and I wish I didn’t. As I said, intellectually, I really do believe in a “live and let live” philosophy. I hate meanness in people and really do prefer to see the good in mankind. But I’ve also lived long enough to have seen evil – not just in people, but in general. I do believe in the existence of both God and Satan. I also believe that Satan uses people to thwart God, and I’m not entirely sure that this isn’t one of those instances.

I’m not trying to condemn anyone, here. I’m really struggling to come to some sort of spiritual understanding on this one. I’ve always been intuitive and pretty much able to discern when evil situations/people/spirits are around, and that has saved my life, and that of a few other people, on more than one occasion. And it always starts with that little voice that says that something is just not quite right. And that’s how I feel about this. Something is just not quite right.

I do welcome any constructive dialogue, but please don’t reply if all you’re going to do is call me names. I’m fairly liberal by nature, but as I said, this issue is a real stumbling block for me.

Techno @ 24 *ahem* nails it, at least from my perspective growing up as a Lutheran in Duluth, MN. My pastors (from the pulpit) were so outspokenly anti-war, and my fellow congregants held protest rallies on the steps of the church so often that I was uncomfortable.

When our pastor moved on and we found a new one, I’ll never forget the sermon shortly after he started when he mentioned half-jokingly how he thought Rummy’s “unknown unknowns” monologue was actually quite profound. Even half-joking praise was a half too serious. When he uttered the words, “I love Donald Rumsfeld!” there was complete and utter silence as everyone shifted uneasily in the pews. He tried to save it by suggesting that Arnold Schwarzenegger was far more confused when he said, “Gay marriage should be between a man and a woman,” but nobody was buying it.

He didn’t last very long with our congregation.

Anecdotally, I can also say that our congregation’s mission statement (printed every Sunday at the top of every bulletin) has included the explicit phrase that all are welcome “regardless of sexual orientation” for probably going on 10 years now.

I could go on for hours — and have done so on many an occasion over the last twenty years — about the theological rationale for this decision, the biblical basis for it, and various other religious aspects of this decision.

A Place at the Table: Scripture, Sexuality, and Life in the Church

It’s a book about ‘the theological rationale for this,’ written by an ELCA pastor.

I appreciate the invite.

My family in the south are descendants of Lutheran religious refugees who fled Germany in the 1730’s. My Michigan grandparents were Volga Germans, German Lutherans who were settled in Russia by Catherine the Great. A Prairie Home Companion definitely strikes a chord. My point is that we used to view ourselves as the antithesis of a southern Baptist.

Doors on Lutheran Churches I know are always red. Don’t know why. I think it’s a reminder of the significance of the church door to Lutherans.

You’ve packed a lot into that one comment — and thank you for doing so.

“In your face sexuality” and casual “hook ups” are hardly the sole property of one portion of the gay community. Indeed, it is glorified as a heterosexual virtue in too many places.

Rather than address each of your comments in what would be a lengthy comment of my own, let me suggest that you read through the ELCA’s social statement on human sexuality. A lot of what you ask/wonder about is addressed there, with references to longer discussions elsewhere, footnotes, and scripture references.

German Lutherans. Now there’s another topic ;-)

If it weren’t for Bach, we Scandinavians would hardly acknowledge their presence. In fact the Norwegians used to send their seminarians to Concordia in St. Louis for theological training. Until 1862, when they decided it was inappropriate to send their young to a school that didn’t condemn slavery. So they open their own seminary at Luther College in Decorah Iowa.

And a marriage between a Swede and a German is still probably considered a mixed marriage in Minnesota–even IF they are both Lutherans.

“And a marriage between a Swede and a German is still probably considered a mixed marriage in Minnesota–even IF they are both Lutherans.”

But neither would be mistaken for a Southern Baptist.

Maybe I can help. For 14 years, I lived in the “gayest” neighborhood in St. Paul. At LEAST half of my neighbors were gay.

At first this bothered me. I had moved to that old Victorian neighborhood for political / city planning reasons. I didn’t understand how or why this neighborhood would also attract people who merely liked things fabulous.

But as time went by, I discovered that my gay neighbors were easily the best neighbors I had ever had in my life. And since most of them were so clearly different from me in so many significant ways, I become utterly convinced that gayness was a natural condition like left-handedness.

So let’s see–my gay neighbors made my life more beautiful, were geniuses at community organizing, and didn’t hit on my significant other. What was not to like???

Oh yeah, there’s the “ick” factor. As I grew older, I discovered the only sex life I was really interested in was my own. So I just decided I wouldn’t think about what gays do for each other in their bedrooms. With that out of the way, I could enjoy my nearly-perfect neighbors again.

Try it.

To Kentuckywoman: “hedonist” gays, well, I lived in New York and Los Angeles, where “hedonist” heterosexuals outnumber gays by multitudes.

God made them, too, and to use your argument that condemns the whole of hetersexuality.

I have a gay brother and a gay sister, each is as God made them from day one — I grew up with them, and neither has changed a whit.

Except for one thing: each found the partner they would stay with (but not be allowed to marry) over 35 years ago.

35 years, 35 years of love, dedication, mortages and, yes, a child: and my sister and her partner were finally able to marry last year, but church bigots have put her marriage in legal limbo with the lying Prop 8.

My brother and his partner are still being denied marriage in their state, after 35 years together, and religious bigots are a large part of that denial.

One part of that bigotry threatens my brother’s health: he’s been laid off after 17 years at the company, and when his COBRA health insurance runs out, he can’t be put on his partner (of 35 years) health insurance because they can’t be married in that state.

Religious bigotry is threatening my brother’s health. YOU and others like you, are threatening my brother’s health by forcing your interpretation religion on the rest of us.

God made my brother and sister who they are: are you saying God is wrong?

Homosexuality is rife in the natural world, turns up in nearly every species. Are you saying God is wrong?

Your interpretation of religion is no longer shared by the Lutherans, Episcopalians, Unitarians, Reformed Judaism, Church of Christ — perhaps God made a mistake when he created YOU.

Or perhaps your (bigoted, yes it is) thinking is the error.

Goodness, I hope not! I think the Southern Baptists are so completely confused about Christianity I have no idea why they even bother to call themselves Christians. Martin Luther was a Ph.D. and first-rate intellectual. I have NO idea how he would react to the Jesus-wants-you-to-be-ignorant crowd but I assume he would be horrified.

The closer i get to the end the less i worry about how others…..

Bravo.

It’s good to see a church organization walk in the proverbial footsteps of Jesus.

God bless you, Peterr. As an extremely religious Christian myself, I’m often forced to have a gut-level rejection of churches and other religious people, since where I live, being religious means you’re a moron. I often feel like I’m the only guy out here who IS a Christian progressive.

Thank you for showing me that not everyone’s a damn idiot. Hell, I might even have to go Lutheran myself.

Luther would have wondered how the hell the idea of Christians being stupid ever got started.

In my childhood neighborhood in Minneapolis, there were Lutheran churches where you could worship in German, Norwegian or Swedish. Nowadays, many of these same churches are home to Vietnamese, Hmong and Cambodian speaking congregations, but I’m getting away from my point already.

Anyway, I’m a 3rd generation Norwegian who grew up Lutheran. Scandinavian Lutherans are pretty dogmatic about their religion and aren’t always inclusive. But they have a strong sense of justice and fair play that eventually wins over dogma and exclusion.

It’s like that with the ELCA today. They are very committed to doctrinal discipline, that is to say, when you go to different ELCA churches, you know what kind of theology you’re getting. Learning to “agree to disagree” was a struggle for the ELCA that lasted for decades. But that Scandinavian sense of fair play and justice won!

Before moving to California, I was a member of St. Paul-Reformation Lutheran Church in St. Paul, MN. This was the church that ordained Anita C. Hill, a open lesbian, back in 2001. What I remember most about my experience at St. Paul-Ref was the number of gay, lesbian and transsexual people coming to worship there. Most of them grew up in good, Christian families – many of them were ostracized by their former church communities and even their families. They re-immersed themselves in the faith they grew up in. They heard once again the gospel stories and understood that they were welcome to partake of God’s promises. And it moved them to tears.

I still get misty-eyed thinking about it. I am no longer a believer myself, but I say that something important and wonderful happened at the ELCA convention. They have taken big steps to becoming the kind of welcoming, affirming faith community that Jesus modeled during his earthly ministry.

Folk should appreciate how long and hard the road was for the ELCA to finally come to this point. I know back around the mid 80’s there was some survey research done on the matter, and only about 10% within what would become ELCA (it was then three Synods) really approved of acceptance and Civil Rights for Gays and Lesbians. The decision reflects years of labor on the part of church members and Clergy to change basic attitudes.

I listened with interest as Minnesota Public Radio broadcast much coverage from the Convention this week, thinking much of the time about two friends of mine who died of AIDS in the mid-1980’s, and how they struggled with their own Lutheran Congregations, (ALC at the time) to accept them as a couple, and accept and support their struggle with their disease. In both cases, before they died, they were able to bring their own congregations, little bitty ones in rural Minnesota, around — open them up to the key questions they would have to struggle with over the years. Dick Hansen and Bert Henningson’s story was the core of a St. Paul Pioneer Press series called Aids in the Heartland, which won a Pulitizer Prize for the paper, and was researched, and eventually rejected for Hollywood Treatment in the place that was eventually taken by “Philadelphis Story” — Tom Hanks wanted to do an AIDS story — and Hansen and Henningson’s story came in Second. All this week I kept thinking about Bert and Dick and the effort they put into bringing their own small congregations around back in 1986 and 88, How pleased they would be with this outcome. For those who want to place these two — Dick Hansen was, when he died, a member of the Democratic National Committee from Minnesota (he was replaced on the Committee by Paul Wellstone.) Dick and Bert worked with Jesse Jackson after Jackson’s first run in 1984 to stop Farm Forclosures, Dick helped organize the Tractor March on DC. Bert had a PhD in Agricultural Economics, and was known around the world for his work on Sustainable Agriculture, and in the late 70’s and early 1980’s was chief of the Research Staff for the Democrats on the House Agriculture Committee in DC. They actually fell in love with each other at a DFL State Convention, and decided to become an “out” couple — and they took up organic pig farming in Polk County Minnesota. They were diagnosed shortly after the test for AIDS became available, and decided to be very public about their circumstances so as to advocate for Gay rights and acceptance. I think some of what happened this week owes a little bit to their accomplishment…one small rural congregation at a time.

Since then there are thousands of folk who contributed to what happened at the Convention Center this week — each with their own story. The Minnesota Post links to some excellent stories of great labor over these many years.