This is obvious, given that Donald Regan did not run for president in 1980.

Proofreed you’re cawpy !!!

Whoops!

You are missing the point. The American people do not want single payer health insurance reform.

The American people do not trust the government to make decisions about their care and treatment while at the same time being focused on controlling costs. The American people see that the ‘public option’ is the mechanism to move us to a single payer system.

Most Americans do not feel their system is broken. They worry about redundant care, frivolous procedures, and lawsuits, but sense that all in all it can be improved rather than scrapped.

Who is proposing single payer?

This is the idiocy and cowardice we are dealing with.

In an interview today on MSNBC’s “Morning Meeting with Dylan Ratigan,” Senate Finance Committee ranking member Chuck Grassley (R) said he’d vote against any health-care reform bill coming out of the committee unless it has wide support from Republicans — even if the legislation contains EVERYTHING Grassley wants.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com…..32642.aspx

So winning North Dakota is equivalent to winning California. This reminds me of the red/blue electoral map by county. All that red! That many counties out west have fewer actual people than an apartment building in the Bronx was irrelevant.

Libertarian troll alert.

That’s quite a talent; reading the minds of so many Americans.

Let’s see, who was it that “misread” the 2008 election?????

OT ..Jane just schooled Andrea Mitchel on MSNBC it was a thing of beauty to watch.

Obama won 28, three fewer than George W. Bush in his narrow 2004 reelection.

Blowing GOPers minds by exposing the lies I like it. You just know that Karl Rove as part of the Bush legacy project came up with that factoid.
Yes Bush won more states the small ones with no people.

What did she say what was the topic?

I’ll have to catch the vid here later. Great being able to get the juicy bits without all the other bs.

The Republican Party is as DEAD AS RONALD REGAN, AND LIKE REGAN THEY WILL STAY THAT WAY!

It literally has no meaning. It’s like saying “George Bush won more states that start with ‘A’ than Obama!” Take that!

Jane was just a guest on Andrea Mitchell and was superb! Hopefully we’ll be able to find a video of her live appearance on the health care issue.

Mayhaps health care reform? *g*

Wow did Mrs Greenspan ever have diffuculties with her vocalbullery.

Sez who?

Those Americans who have a single-payer plan are rather protective of it. Look at the turnout when they are told (incorrectly) that Obama is proposing to reduce Medicare benefits.

Also, despite some isolated problems, veterans seem quite happy with their government provided (”socialized”) VA medicine.

Remember that Social Security and Medicare were passed without any Republican support. In each case, the Repubs were screaming “socialism!!!” When asked whether his opposition to single-payer socialism meant he favored repealing Medicare, Rep. Culbertson (R-TX) did a tap dance worthy of Fred Astaire.

It was about healthcare, and she smackeddown DINO Evan Bayh by bringing up to Mitchell that his wife’s job is a conflict and she (non verbatim quote) said we will have to expose these conflicts of interest if Bayh try’s to kill public option… She was very calm and powerful in her presentation of FACTS

Karl Rove with The Math I’m sure this talking point was written by him and the given to the GOP Media repeat. I expect this talking point to be mentioned allot on the news unless we get a DEM on TV who reads FDL.
Sheesh just what do we have to do to get media attention for our ideas beside repeat them for 6 months or more?
The Lefty blogs are always ahead of the Media in discussing the issues.

lol

“Rep. Culbertson (R-TX) did a tap dance worthy of Fred Astaire.”

Speaking of tap dancing. (o/t..and I apologize if anyone blows their cookies on this one):

http://voices.washingtonpost.c…..o_the.html

Got a link to back that up?

Until we can afford to buy one of the networks they’re gonna be on us.

Wow, I spent the weekend watching the extended versions of all three Lord of the Rings movies. Who knew I’d see more trolls today?

Stop teasing what was said

hey, jane, nice job on andrea mitchell’s msnbc show! long live free dog lake!

More Americans voted for Obama (69 million) than any other presidential candidate in history, including Bush in ‘04 (62 million).

Various people have written some version of this quote over the years. The argument has yet to impress me. Our population is growing at the rate of a couple of million a year. The winner of this election should have won more votes than four years ago. They don’t always, and it’s possible 2012’s won’t, but I think you’ll find it’s the norm, at least since 1960.

Back to Obama’s 52.9% of the popular vote in 2008: it was the largest majority since George H.W Bush in 1988, and greater than Reagan’s 50.7% in 1980.

That impresses me. Big Bush ran after two “successful” Republican terms. Obama ran after two terms of Little Bush.

Does anyone have a clip of Jane and Mrs. Greenspan?

Rats,rats, rats. Missed her. Turned on tv just in time to see that “non-partisan” (bec he once headed CBO – what about runnning McCain campaign, Andrea?) Douglas Holt-Eakin instead.

Had to turn down the volume to avoid head exploding.
Hurry, someone put up the video of Jane!

Actually, no. When the single-payer attributes are described rather than named, a majority of Americans approve of its components. It’s similar to the demonization of the word “liberal” over time; most Americans hold “liberal” positions on most issues, but call themselves moderates or even conservatives at the same time.

Thank hate radio for destroying America’s ability to think for itself.

True but our Dem talking heads could study up on the issues by reading us before they get on tv I think the Lake has one of the best Debate culture in the comments that I know of.
In a sense we get an idea tear it to shreds or try to we expose weakness in our ideas and amend them accordingly.
Any Dem going on TV should be reading the Lake if they want to be informed and win the debate with ideas.

Are you nuts? Medicare is a government run health system. Nobody has been denied any treatments prescribed! The VA is a government run healthcare system. It and Medicare are both more effecient than the private system mostly because they aren’t profit driven and the heads don’t make nearly the money those at the top of insurance companies or hospitals. The military run heath system is better than the private system and run by the government! Medicare is single payer. Ask any sane person over 65 if they want Medicare to disappear, especially what health insurance costs now. With no exclusions like Merdicare, the VA System or the military. ALL run by the government. Also, you have never heard of a Medicare patient being charged with medicare fraud. Maybe with a Doctor’s collusion. But you have heard of Insurers, Doctors, Hospitals, Clinics, Pharmaceuticals, Laboratories and supply vendors being charged and fined. These are reasons to have National Health System to get the profiteering out of it.

The argument by itself isn’t that impressive. As a part of a whole (i.e., total number of votes, total number of electoral votes, and percentage of popular vote) it has meaning.

But your claim that the next winner always gets more votes isn’t true. You could have lower turnout, you could have a closer election, a third party candidate, any number of factors. Carter actually got 7 million fewer votes in 1976 than Nixon did in 1972.

And obviously, Al Gore got more votes than George W. Bush in 2000.

I’m calling myself a Lefty:) I take their insult one step farther and turn it into badge of honor!

Are you nuts?

Classic response to Troll Logic they wouldn’t be Trolls if they were not Nuts:)

Yeah … but 66% support a public option. In the NY Times / CBS poll taken a couple of weeks ago, there was still very strong support for a public option. See result (on Page 13) here – http://documents.nytimes.com/n…..haul#p=13. Yes, that’s right – 66% said they supported some sort of “medicare like” plan being offered.

From Democracy Now:

BusinessWeek: “The Health Insurers Have Already Won” *

In a cover story for BusinessWeek earlier this month, reporters Chad Terhune and Keith Epstein argue UnitedHealth and other insurers maneuvered to shape healthcare reform for their own benefit. The story is titled “The Health Insurers Have Already Won,” and the authors argue that the insurers have “succeeded in redefining the terms of the reform debate to such a degree that no matter what specifics emerge in the voluminous bill Congress may send to President Obama this fall, the insurance industry will emerge more profitable.” We speak with Chad Terhune, senior writer at BusinessWeek, where he’s covered healthcare for several years.

Here’s Jane on MSNBC

realclearpolitics? Aren’t those guys over the 2008 Democratic primary yet?

Mrs. Greenspan that is too funny!

Thanks elliot for those of us at work!

Why is that funny?

you are most welcome :)

Jane was intelligent well prepared knew the subject this is how I want all the Dems to be on tv.

If this country were having a fact-based discussion of healthcare, that’d be one thing. But we’re not. We have dishonest hatemongers manipulating ignorant people with scare tactics. They are not operating in good faith and many of them work directly for the industries trying to ensure their continued profits on the backs of hardworking Americans.

Ronald Reagan in 1961 recorded a record for the AMA to scare people about Social Security, saying it was “socialized medicine” and that it would reduce our freedoms and destroy America. It was an evil tactic then and it’s an evil tactic now.

Republicans seem to think it is fair game to accuse Democrats and liberals, on *every* issue, of wanting to take away our freedoms and destroy America. It is dangerous to whip up fear and hysteria as they have done. (Mind you, this is after 8 years of accusing any liberal who complained of “suffering from Bush Derangement Syndrome”.) They believe that the ends justify the means, but it makes America a more dysfunctional place and it retards progress.

There is no political justification for claiming President Obama or Nancy Pelosi hate their own country and want to put you in an internment camp and turn America into the Soviet Union. Anyone who misleads an ignorant citizen into thinking this way is committing an evil act.

Hatemongering and fearmongering are evil. They are the inevitable precursors to pogrom and civil war.

Straw Poll … who would you rather watch for 2 hours every day … Jane or Mrs. Greenspan ?

Thanks, Elliott. What was the name of that website again? Freedoglake? Fareydoglake?

Yeah. Mrs. Greenspan is all over it. Jane carved her up into itty bitty pieces…and Mrs. Greenspan appeared to be just slightly intimidated by it, too.

o/t: Finally, a real choice:

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo…..do-it.php/

I loved that Mrs. Greenspan tossed her head back and pretended to be knowledgeable, only to walk into Jane’s trap. I wonder if anyone at Rachel’s Network will tell her what happened ?

Andrea teed Bayh right up for Jane *g*

Linky no worky … try this one

linky no worky

That’s what happens when these beltway bubble types poke their heads up out of the hole they’re living in…

Jane laid a trap for Andrea, who showed that she was there to trump Bayh and Baucus’s ideology.

Sorry about that. I need to go back to codehead school…

Ha and she can’t even see Russia from her front porch.

Ditto, Elliott,

It’s amazing, but actually putting facts into an argument does help. Combine them with rational thought and you have a sure winner.

Now, why can’t the MSM catch on to this idea?

Please, please, God… tell her to run!!!

they actually have an ideology?

Facts, Schmacts. Mrs. Greenspan doesn’t need facts. She’s got a contract.

Bachmann-Palin, 2012. The dream ticket.

That’s a trick question, right?

Thinking of their being on the tubes 24/7 for eight months is more like a nightmare.

and you trust corporate beauracrats to make decisions. Riddle me this, critics say that the insurance companies can’t compete with a public option but in the next breath they say the government can’t do anything right therefore the insurance companies are worse than the government, right?

Wouldn’t it be great to give Andrea’s salary to Jane and see what she does with it ?

until the other side (the side advocating continuation of the status quo) can respond to this document

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/87x…..Health.pdf

…there is absolutely no debate here. CBO says that, in the status quo, healthcare spending will increase from its current ridiculously high level of 16% of GDP (basically twice or more than twice the level of just about any other developed countries, just about all of which have an age pyramid older than ours and which thus should require more healthcare costs per capita, all other things being equal). This figure will, according to our own government’s numbers, increase to 25% in 2025, 37% in 2050 and 49% in 2082 – simply not tenable and leading, inevitably, to national failure and catastrophe (even you, Indie et al, can do that math).

For anyone to argue for any healthcare system without effective cost containment (in other words, a system without a strong public option), one would either have to argue with these figures or supply an alternative means of cost containment (one that does not require simply killing lots and lots of people).

so indie et al, please provide your arguments accordingly, because otherwise any of your arguments about what you claim the “American people want” or “God wants” or what “you want” are completely meaningless. Will your alternative solution to healthcare whatever it is (assuming you actually have one), contain at present levels the percentage of GDP currently spent on healthcare, and eventually roll it back? If the answer is no, then you got nothin’. Zip. Zero. You’re simply lobbyin’ for national suicide.

Just watched Jane’s interview with Andrea Greenspan. Jane was great, as to be expected, and it looks like Andrea has had some elective face surgery. I have a feeling that somewhere in Mrs. Greenspan’s attic their is a portrait of her that is becoming more grotesque with each passing day.

There side would seem to want an eventual national failure at which point they can go back to an earlier, purer state of existance. I think their model is the early 19th Century.

actually, I just don’t think they have an ideal future at all. They’re just shills for corporate interests that are in favor of sacrificing both American citizens and the national interest (and probably national survival) to the short-term interests of next quarters’ earnings. My point is that they lack vision at all. These are people who would happily cut off their nose to spite their face.

“The norm” means “usual”. In eight of the last twelve general elections, the winning Presidential candidate earned more votes than the previous winner. Data here in a nice, convenient form. Big exceptions were Nixon in ‘68, which George Wallace turned into a three-way, and Carter, which you mentioned already, which I assume was caused by a mixture of apathy and indifference.

So I’m not impressed by higher vote totals. The opposite can sometimes impress me, depending on the reasons.

If the single payer models in Canada and the U.K. are evil and contain the same kind of “DEATH PANELS” that are destined for us, how come there is no shortage of elderly Canadians or Brits?

What, are you expecting logic and facts to make an impression on the NeoCons and their ilk ?

By my count, its 5 out of the last 13: 1960, 1968, 1976, 1988, 1992. And again, I stipulated that by itself, it isn’t that compelling. It is only significant when considered with other factors, as discussed above.

Speak for yourself. I would welcome a single-payer system. I don’t see the benefit of paying the insurance companies 30¢ of every $1 to ration care and figure out ways to screw people.

This makes great reading. The trolls just can’t help themselves. All I can say is bring on 2010. The trolls will work straight into the traps. Even though they are floodlit.

Most Americans do not feel the system is broken? What r u smoking?
In 2000 I was paying $13 per week for someone to tell me where I could go and what MD I could see and 4 yrs later that cost almost tripled and the care wasn’t any better. A family plan for most people I know cost around $100 or more PER WEEK! And that’s just in case you get sick and then you still have to pray that you’re truly covered. That may be fine for you partner but I’m sick of getting screwed by Big Ins whose CEO’s go home with an average of $11.9 mil per yr. They love people like you.