A word to the wise, wingers: Is this really what you want?

Yes. It is what they want. You can’t reason with them– hate and violence are the only things they understand.

Good job!
With hate everybody loses.

I agree about some of these wild-eyes conservatives who do not want to try to work and make some good decisions but to name-call and yell like the asses they are! I also blame the members Congress who are taking much money from all the lobbyist representing the big Pharmas. and Healthcare Cos.! I would call it nothing else but bribery! The hell with these crooks…I say. Go to Petition Site 2 and sign mine please, if you agree. Thanks to all those with ethics and thoughtful minds.

That’s exactly it.

If they pull a McVeigh or a Booth, they will hurt the very cause they want to uphold, even with the GOP/Media Complex helping them as much as they dare.

The wingnut power structure definitely wants this. The ignorant many who are being jerked around by this malevolent crew have no idea what they’re buying into.

“Hey! Let’s vote and act against our own self-interest!”

I place a great deal of blame right on the doorstep of the MSM. They could do a lot to turn the tide. What do we get instead?

When the bread is lacking, give ‘em circuses…

You listening, Wolf, etal? Dipshits.

The Mid-Eastern terrists don’t have to lift a finger – the country is being torn apart just fine without them.

AH, but their ringleaders aren’t quite that stupid.

That photo is heart breaking. It brought back this memory: Do you all remember the photo of the fireman carrying a dead child? My daughter was around 10 years old and was unconsoleable. She said I just want to find whoever did this and kill him. I hate him. I told her the only way to defeat hate is with love. She cut the photo out of the newspaper and wrote that on the bottom. Had it taped next to her bed until she moved out.

You are wonderful!

EPU’d.

C-SPAN has live coverage of RightOnline Bloggers Conference, Americans for Prosperity Foundation (10 – noon ET).

Earlier they showed an encouraging speech by Michele Bachmann.

So far healthcare reform has been knocked. The crowd looks large.

“Liberals sacrifice right of individual for collective …” And so it goes.

The dissassociation that the wingnuts promote is the mob against … the mob the wingers are insisting that us ’socialist lefties’ are. That’s very much supposed to be the effect of calling demonstrators self-created. And has been torn entirely apart by posts here, and Rachel Maddow.

Until they come up against denial of health care, the wingnuts will keep accepting the fiction that some one else will be hurt by their riotous behavior, while they will save on tax payments.

Really! I can imagine Cronkite calling them Thugs.
Did anyone in the msm call out Sarah for her hate speech? I don’t recall hearing any criticism there.

You noticed that, did you? bin Laden must laugh himself to sleep every night at how all he has to do is yank these wingers strings and they do his work for him free of charge. The Treasury should at least send him a bill for all the work we’ve done on his account.

Teach your children well. Just trying to pass on what my daddy taught me.

I was in Oklahoma City before they finished the memorial, passed by it while it still under construction. It was a sad place.

The racist wingnuts already see “their country” as being lost or changed in ways they hate so I believe they see that there is nothing to lose if they use violence. The Fox whackos just confirm this for them and help them see themselves as saviors of white America.

That heartbreaking photo will always symbolize the results of mindless hate to me. I live not far from OK City, many here went up to help in the rescue. And I recall how many tho’t at the time that they were looking for perpetrators wearing turbans, many ME residents in the area were harrassed; some still are sure that Timothy McVeigh was just part of the ME terrorists.

Love is stronger than hate.
Hope is stronger than fear.
We must persevere.

That is so terribly sad. How can we evolve when we look at each other as different? I used to give a tongue lashing to those at work who used the phrase “diaper head” or some such. You know what? Each backed down and said, yeah, you’re right. No one ever told me to go stuff it.

Yep. America will be ripped apart from within. George Bush started it now his wingnuts are going to end it.

I remember actually being relieved that the OK City terrorists were homegrown, because I worried about some Middle East war adventure had the perpetrators been muslim. Happened anyway, and now I am much more afraid of our own citizens attacking us. Maybe there is no getting around this madness till the older generation is replaced by a better educated, more sensible generation. 20 years to wait? Hate to be so pessimistic.

Thanks so much for this PW. Going back to the election debacle of 2000, the only way I was able to console myself about the stolen election was to think about the amount of violence, with guns, that would have ensued had Gore been rightfully given the victory. I knew that our side would be able to move on without violence and I reasoned that Bush was such an idiot that he would be a one term wonder and unable to do very much harm.

The eight years of lawlessness and Constitution-shredding proved that I was terribly wrong on the “how much harm can he do” thought, but I was very proud of our side that we did not resort to violence even in the face of such trampling of our values. And now we are looking down the barrel of the very violence I thought we were avoiding by letting them have W. The bottom line is that there is a hard core of lunatics on the right who never will be placated. They believe that it is their birthright to run the country (and even the world, while they rail against one world government) according to their hateful values and they will not rest when not in power.

I just don’t see how we avoid the very kind of disaster you are predicting.

Yes, imagery is very powerful. The reason behind the current decision to not release the torture photos.

It is of extreme importance though to recall that McVeigh was convicted, and executed, on circumstantial evidence alone. Just another cog in the machine.

That’s a very hopeful sign, that intelligence and decency attract followers. More, please.

“The bottom line is that there is a hard core of lunatics on the right who never will be placated.”

We found during the Civil Rights legislation that the business community shunned any member that showed enlightened tolerance and used economic interests to keep them from helping promote decency. More activity in the Chamber of Commerce by nicer people would be helpful for gaining our community higher standards.

What party was running the show when our individual liberties were sacrificed via FISA and warrantless wiretapping?

Not that I’d expect an unbashed moron like Bachmann to know.

-G

Reading this thread reminds me how I wish Obama had picked a staunch liberal — or even socialist Bernie Sanders — as his v.p., rather than mushball Joe Biden. If there’s anything wingers can stomach less than a Negro liberal, it’s a white socialist, or at least a serious progressive.

I’m curious to know from folks here who were adults at the time: what kind of protest (if any) was there against Medicare in the mid-60s? I’ve read quite a bit about LBJ’s presidency but cannot seem to remember what the so called “average” citizen thought of that legislation? Were opponents as vocal in opposition?

I’m not sure I understand your comment. You want the right wingers to be more unnerved? Pushing their buttons? Please elaborate.

I don’t see a way to put the kibosh on the frothing coming from the hard right.

I doubt even at this point the gasbags who stoked the fire could put it out even if they were so inclined.

I mean, it sounds fatalistic, but this runaway train is going to crash. Now it’s a matter of mitigating the damage it does.

Teach Your Children Well

I get the impression that the public acting-out has just about run its course. I think that most people, not all, have had a chance to see these old wingers behaving like idiots on TV and are having second thoughts.

You could be right. After watching all the hating in California during Prop 8, I was so hopeful that enough of us had our hearts tuned in correctly that it wouldn’t pass. Alas, I was wrong.

Well, I was a teen-ager, mildly politically conscious at the time, not terribly aware of old-age issues. T
There certainly was a lot of noise about “socialized medicine”-my memory is mostly of hearing from doctors and the AMA. Can’t recall hearing friends and family discussing it, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t.

The big difference is that the noise machine was much smaller – no talk radio, no internet, no organized crazies with megaphones (metaphorical).
RW meant John Birchers, widely recognized as a lunatic fringe, even by mainstream Repubs like my family.
And, of course, it was pre-Watergate/Nixon “dirty tricks,” Lee Atwater, etc. That’s when the sophistication of propaganda from the right to defeat anything progressive began to ratchet up.
Times and methods have changed substantially. I seriously doubt if Medicare could be passed today. Also, of course, Lyndon Johnson was a master at twisting arms to get legislation passed.

Lots of republicans in Congress at the time voted in favor of it and when republicans of today are asked if they had been in Congress would they have voted in favor of it, they say ‘yes’.

Here’s republican Culbertson:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30…..3#32422533

Oklahoma City bombing happened when I was at work at a call center, our OK office closed and all the nurses went to help. Our office took their calls, so many were from beneficiaries wanting to know information.

Lived in Oregon where the many of these groups such as the posse were active. David Neiwert and Jeffery Fieldman have been writing about these nutcakes for years.

Dat’s it.

Watching the events of Oklahoma City as soon as the media began pointing the finger at Muslim extremists I knew right then that it was no doubt homegrown terrorists of the far right wing. The media has no compunction when it comes to demonizing the “Other” but hesitates at pointing the finger at the “Us.”

but hesitates at pointing the finger at the “Us.”
Oh, yes. But, that would necessitate self-reflection then, wouldn’t it?

The Dixiecrats were very active in opposing medicare as ’socialized medicine’, but at the time I was not in flyover territory so didn’t see on-air attempts to demonize it. LBJ was roundly condemned for civil rights legislation by the southern strategy sorts, and as you are no doubt aware, Democratic party registration declined dramatically in the south and local offices have been dominated by Republican right wingers ever since except in exceptionally educated communities like Austin, TX.

“Goldwater was the first Republican to win the electoral votes of the Deep South states (Louisiana, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, and South Carolina) since Reconstruction. However, Goldwater’s vote on the Civil Rights Act proved devastating to Goldwater’s campaign everywhere outside the South (besides Dixie, Goldwater won only in Arizona, his home state), contributing to his landslide defeat in 1964.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

The “us” is who we need to watch now. Thank goodness, the Southern Poverty Law Center tracks the hate groups and militias because they are now more dangerous than ever. Up until now they mostly talked big and made themselves feel important. Now it’s something quite different, IMO. McVeigh was mad at the gov’t (although I have never figured out exactly why) and was willing to kill 168 people, including children, to make his point. The next nut could decide a school or a shopping center might make a good point. The “War on Terror” should be right here.

I dunno, PW. Seems like the reactionary eliminationist side won ultimately in each of the historical instances you cite.

The anti-Lincoln pro-Confederacy/racist side won in the way Abe’s racist successor derailed and destroyed the progressive cong’l legislation dealing with Reconstruction in the South.

The anti-Kennedy forces wanting him removed from the scene — the Right, the CIA, the Pentagon, Big Oil — all benefitted overall with LBJ in power. He gave them the war — Vietnam — they had been clamoring for, the one Kennedy refused them repeatedly for 2 yrs. They could live with some progressive legislation — that would have passed inevitably had Kennedy lived anyway.

Clinton: again arguably the hostile Right/GOP won the day when Bill was impeached and then was crippled in effectiveness over the last 2 yrs of his presidency. Then VP Al Gore in 2000 was somewhat hurt just being a part of an admin whose president had sinned so embarrassingly; the false character assassination hits on Al by the GOP/MSM did even more damage. The ultraconservatives won out when Junior’s people were allowed w/o any media scrutiny to steal and cheat their way to the WH, helped finally by a Scotus decision barely criticized in the corp media.

The questions some folks in my area ask my husband (a owner of a logging and road building company) about health care and the stimulas package are unbelievably amazing. They are totally mis-understanding things like at what point a business would have to provide health care for its employees (they thought $250,000 gross and not $250,00 for payroll) and a statement that all the stimulas contracts are going to King County companies (repair of the main highway in my county has Eastern Washington contractors). He just debunks them and is, personally, turning from considering himself a Republican to becoming a Democrat. Let’s hope that is happening elsewhere.

I have to disagree on one point. When Clinton left office his approval rating was at 62%. The biggest mistake Gore made was not using Clinton to campaign. At least, aside from choosing Holy Joe as his running mate.

Unbelievable.

This debate will not lead to assination or domestic terrorism. Talk about fear-mongering! Turn off MSNBC, tune out talk radio and go talk to your neighbor. You know, the ‘independent’ voter who voted for Obama. Surely you must know one or two? If not…I’m here.

Voters have every right to be concerned about the proposed health ‘care’, er ‘insurance’ reform proposed by Congress and the President. Why the concern?

1) It’s just too good to be true. Like Obama himself, this plan promises something for everyone…Lower costs, expanded coverage, no rationing and it won’t affect those who like their current plans and want to keep them.
But as Obama has warned us, ‘there’s no such thing as a free lunch’…except when we ask the ‘rich’ to pay ‘their fair share’, take the profits from the evil insurance companies, and cut waste and fraud in Medicare and Medicaid. Then, voila…FREE LUNCH! Except the CBO says otherwise.

Who’s buying this?

2) When did this become about my health care and health insurance? Sure, I am willing to pay more in taxes to see that more uninsured are insured and that consumers are further protected from losing coverage and personal bankruptcy. But the debate has moved well beyond that to include a ‘public option’ that is a transition to a single payer system.

Sounds like a bait and switch to me.

3) What’s the rush? Unemployment is still very high. The economy appears to have bottomed out but the threat of a ‘U’ shaped recovery remains. The ’stimulus’ funds are seeping out at a snail’s pace and the positive effects are negligable.

I do not subscribe to Rahm Emmanuel’s never ‘let a crisis go to waste’ philosphy. It is arrogant, irresponsible and disrespectful.

I am disgusted that politicians do not bother to read and fully comprehend the large, complex pieces of legislation that they pass into law. If a bill is too thick to be read, too complex to understand, it should fail.

Edit, edit, edit.

4) This current debate is a flashpoint, a symbol for everthing WRONG with BIG GOVERNMENT.

- Pay for play with big business in advance of legislation wriiten by representatives of WE THE PEOPLE. Advertising $$ supporting ‘reform’ in exchange for ‘protection’ from additional consumer demands. Ahh, Chicago comes to DC. How refreshing!

- Intrusion and intervention into the personal health and well-being of every American. Tests, drugs, treatments, all to be reviewed by a government bureaucracy for effectiveness in terms of health AND costs. I know insurance companies do this, but I can always change plans if I don’t like the coverage. When Dr. Obama and the US government are telling me I can only take the blue pill and not the red pill, and if I want to pay for it on my own I will be taxed or denied that ability, I have lost freedom in exchange for security.

- The Post Office, Public Education, Medicare/Medicaid, Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac, government run entities that are operating at a loss and constantly require more taxpayer dollars with little or no improvement. Reform these institution successfully and only then I will trust the federal government to do administer my health care.

- Out of touch, entrenched Congressional leadership who cannot see beyond the Beltway/Wall Street corridor or their own highly partisan districts.

- TARP, Corporate bailouts and government takeovers of private companies, runaway deficits. ENOUGH.

5) Why are my concerns demonized and characterized as stupid, paranoid, hateful, and racist? Name calling is a desperate tactic of an debater who is losing their argument.

Calling me names and equating me to the moral equivalent of Timothy McVeigh is as unhinged as anything I have heard coming from the far-right.

You are NOT going to persuade the American people to vote for a comprehensive health ‘care’ er ‘insurance’ reform by summarily denegrading and dismissing those who oppose this ‘reform’ as potential domestic terrorists and would be assasins!

Win me over and you win the debate. So far I vote NO!!

No one equates you with McVeigh. You must admit that SOME of these people are dangerous. They are not reasonable people who have checked out the facts, given the whole thing some thought and come to a conclusion. They are irrational in their hatred of who-knows-what and use any excuse to “do something”. You have the right to any opinion you want, of course. When it goes past “opinion” and moves to “action”, then it can get somewhat dangerous.

Yay – that’s good to hear (the last part, about your hubby).

OT – sorry, but Sen. Jim Webb has apparently won the release of that (idiot) American who caused Aung Saan Suu Kyi to be re-convicted just before the end of her last sentence.
Most astonishing, Suu Kyi herself was brought from her house arrest to meet with Sen. Webb, who is said to have asked that she be released as well.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..us_senator

And of course, scrolling down, you see the usual arguments from “critics” who say he shouldn’t have talked to the Myanmar regime at all.
No, of course, not; engagement never works!/s

These Red(neck) White(trash)and Blue(collar) morons believe god is on their side and any violence is His wish: To obliterate the Socialist/Communist non-Christian Atheists.

To them their “even one drop” of black blood makes our president a “N*****”, and they are still the bigoted gun-toting KKK Lumpen Proletariat ignoramuses they have always been. Now they are just crawling and slithering out from under their rocks and swamps where they have been hunkering and festering for the last 8 years. The rabble mob puppets of the Oligarchy.

They dont represent “The People”..the People have spoken when they elected Obama, who is as white as he is black and we need to stop thinking in Their terms and calling him Black..if anything he is an African-American, as much as someone else having a White American mother and an Italian born father is an Italian-American. So.

We need to recognize this hateful, ignorant mob for what they truly are and be as afraid of them as if they were rabid wild animals. And deal with them as such.

Yes, imagery is very powerful. The reason behind the current decision to not release the torture photos.

One can’t reason with visceral reactions to objective proof.

If the American masses really saw at last in an unmarginalized, unvarnished fashion what has been perpetrated in their names, the blowback would dwarf any outrage deemed performable by the willing stooges of conservative corporate kleptocracy.

“I am disgusted that politicians do not bother to read and fully comprehend the large, complex pieces of legislation that they pass into law.”

Like most of the talking points you’ve swallowed whole, this absurdity is made up. There are some irresponsible representatives, but most are diligently doing their jobs and have large legislative departments working fulltime on keeping up with the bills they are writing, sponsoring, and voting on.

Twain, I don’t necessarily disagree with your take. Of the historical instances PW cited, the one dealing with Clinton is much more of a mixed result for the eliminationist side.

He was popular with the public, and in fact his solid approval ratings for job performance might well have been the one thing that saved him from seeing a group of wise cong’l Dem elders from paying a visit to the WH and asking him to step aside, as happened with Nixon

It was a tough political call for Al and his advisors on whether or not or to what extent to use Bill in the campaign. I think hindsight agrees with you. Certainly Al tended to campaign rather defensively in 2000, not to mention passively w/r/t dealing with corp media lies about him. Getting out there often with Bill, reminding people of the 8 yrs of peace and prosperity, and even tackling the issue of Bill’s personal mistake head-on probably would have been a smarter strategy. As RFK liked to say, in politics if you have a problem, you’re better off hanging a lantern on it — people will respect the honesty and tend to cut you some slack.

Re his choice of VP, again something arising from a defensive attitude (inoculation against character attacks because of Bill). And, speaking of assassinations, I shudder to contemplate, had Al won, the way he would have left himself more vulnerable to such attack given the very conservative nature of his #2.

Can’t read the comments right now, but excellent post. I think the hate-blinded right wingers don’t care what they hit, they mean to strike. They are like Bush, not caring what happens when you stir a hornet’s nest with a stick. It’s as though the complex issues in this country and the world were brightly coloured balls on a pool table. They will happily fire the white ball into the middle just to see what the hell happens.

This is a very dangerous time. I am deeply concerned about the safety of the president and his family.

I notice a few R talking points in “indie’s” post – notably the assumption that no one in Congress has “read the bill,” which is manifestly not true. (oh, doubtless some haven’t – I believe Grassley (R)Iowa is one who admitted so). Talking point, not to mention shouting point at meetings.
“big government”.
“What’s the rush?” Actually, the fact that unemployment is “still high” is a major reason for the “rush” (to accomplish something that has been around since TRUMAN tried, 50 years slow enough for ya?) since more and more people who think they have just fine covereage are fiinding themselves abruptly without it.
Did indie happen to see the news about the most recent Remote Area Medicine project’s Los Angeles clinic, and the thousands who showed up for that, just like the one in Wise, Virginia? When thousands and thousands of people are desperate enough to drive for hours and wait for days to be seen because their health and dental conditions are so severe, there is a serious, urgent problem with both health care and health insurance in this country. See below:
http://la.metblogs.com/2009/08…..-capacity/

I had just graduated from college in Jan. of 1965 and was taking some graduate courses, waiting to go on active duty in the Air Force at the end of December. Basically, following the Kennedy assasination, and the trouncing of Goldwater, the conservatives were in almost total defeat. The AMA loudly opposed Medicare, and some arch conservatives, including Ronald Reagan and Barry Goldwater, but the act was passed by large margins in both the House and Senate. At that time, the Eishenower terms had been the only Republican presidency since FDR’s election in 1932 and the Repubs had only controlled the House for a period in the late 40’s and early 50’s. (By the way, I was living in Denton at the time.)

I read somewhere the other day that Teddy Roosevelt actually talked about health coverage for all ! Can you imagine it going back that far? I’ve decided that the assertion that we are so advanced in America gets more absurd every day. We are way behind in many ways.

Here’s another interesting piece, too – a government-subsidized health care system that works!:

“I was somewhat skeptical when Senator Bernie Sanders, an independent from Vermont, told me that these centers … had “essentially solved the problem of primary care” for local residents. Politicians are in the business of making big claims….

In this case, the senator’s claim seems to be very much on the money. The center at Plainfield is modern and well equipped, spotlessly clean, quiet and efficient. Patients that I spoke with marveled at the friendliness of doctors and staffers and said they never felt intimidated. Appointments are easily made, and if it is necessary to see a physician on the same day, or within 24 hours, that is usually not a problem.“

They are by far in the minority.

People are assembling in protest, just like they did against the war. The left hopes to smear protesters to scare Americans over to their side of the debate. I do not think it is working. Some of the more ‘disruptive’ protesters have more in common with Code Pink than with ELF.

I think it is sad and desperate. I think better of my fellow man and my country as a whole to suggest otherwise.

They don’t understand that ‘their country’ never existed except in their imaginations.

Yeah, Code Pink shouts people down when they ask a question and chant and yell and call other voters/citizens names./s

You need to check your facts. Perhaps you should consider turning of Fox News, and frankly, the major broadcast networks, too. If you don’t go to original sources but rely on any tv/radio news, you are getting no more than a tiny, slanted piece of the truth.

No one called you any names. You are hearing what you want/expect to hear.

What color is the sky on your planet?

I thought you were for real – here for an honest discussion. My first mistake of the day.

Perhaps but my point still stands. This bill it no where near its final form and all aspects and details should be debated BEFORE any voting takes place.

Thanks for addressing my concerns. I thought this was a place where I could come to be persuaded. My mistake.

Sure you did.

We have, in fact, addressed your concerns. Have you followed any links? done any research of your own? Yeah, I thought not.
Go on back to Red State.

Yeah, the noise machine has really changed matters but the Right wasn’t (still isn’t-but maybe catching up?) up to speed with Web 2.0 and the new media. Thanks.

Very interesting. Did you finish grad school at NTSU later? I got my BA and MLS there (well, UNT).

Different times back then when you could actually get some major pieces of legislation passed with bi-partisan votes: Civil Rights, Voting Rights, Medicare, etc.

I admire Obama’s willingness to “extend a hand” but very few of them are willing to seemingly incur the wrath of the Wingers.

It’s hard to be taken seriously when you act as if Code Pink is the enemy. Come on. Everyone has concerns but not all of us would act like the idiots at the town halls. The most disturbing thing of all to me is that these people are so uninformed. Why? The information is all over the place on both sides. I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me – if they have some facts to talk about. Otherwise, it’s just screaming.

I was hoping to be persuaded in this forum. No matter. I read all manner and level of analysis and opinion. Came to FDL from a link at realclearpolitics. Right now I do not support a ‘public option’ because I am not in support of single payer. I now realize that single payer is the ‘holy grail’ of reform here, so, perhaps you are right, I may be in the wrong place. However, my opinion is in the majority of those with whom I interact daily.

Actually, the first effort to get coverage for all was initiated in 1912 with the full support of the AMA and most public health figures. The effort was derailed after an insurance company executive working for Prudential started a fear-mongering campaign that made everyone believe socialism was coming to America. Five years later the Bolsheviks overthrew the tsar, and three years after that Eugene Debs got 915,000 votes as the Socialist Party candidate for president.

Think about it, 93 years ago the insurance companies were throwing the S word at meaningful reform and we’ve been paying for it ever since and will continue to pay for the ignorance of the many while insurance executives sit back and deny coverage to people. I’d rather have someone who isn’t pocketing the money being saved by denying me a procedure making the decisions on what’s allowable.

Indie’s on the wrong blog, thought this was Politico.
Ignoring is bliss. *G*

Then how come a guy showed up at a health care reform rally with a gun? And why are some holding signs that say, “Death to Obama” and “Death to Obama, Michelle, and 2 stupid kids”?

The fact you are going after us for going after them shows you to be a Wrong Indie! And idiot actually.

Health insurance reform is needed in this country. The End.

I did not say Code Pink is the enemy. Second, not everyone is acting like idiots at town halls. As a whole, we have nothing to fear from anti-health ‘insurance’ reform protesters any more than we had to fear anti-war protesters.

People are not as uninformed as you may think. Perhaps the arguments FOR are simply not as compelling as you believe.

Here’s a comment I made on my Facebook page to a friend of a friend:

“The US Postal service is currently promoting a package delivery price where it will be one fee for up to 70lbs to ship. UPS and the other private delivery companies will have to compete with this price. If they go below the price of the box to ship and have the 70lb weight, then this is what is meant when someone says a government option keeps the competitors honest and keeps prices lower! As of right now, those who are uninsured cannot afford to go to the doctors, but with a public option in the mix, the health insurance industry system (insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, the doctors, the manufacturers of MRI machines etc.) will have to compete. See? It’s very simple. The public option also cuts out the middleman too which will save everyone money.”

And this one:

“Exactly Joe, but as of right now the right wing of America is picking parts from here and there and are causing irrational fear! Seriously. I’m amazed at the irrational panic about this. It will pass at some point. The Democrats do not need the republican votes and quite frankly, they have small businesses, the uninsured, and those with pre-existing conditions waiting for ANYTHING to pass! Remember, health insurance companies are not providing health care. They are who the employer pays to handle their claims and when the insurance company decides to go up on the price to the employer, the employer goes up on the employee, and then the insurance company can change the policy of employee by stating that they are no longer covered for annual visits or something else! There is NO regulation of the insurance companies. In a perfect world, we wouldn’t need them. We would go to the doctor, the doctor would bill the government plan, and it would end there! :-) “

And this one:

“Well, the thing is the US government is huge and it has a ton of buying power in the private sector that the private companies don’t have. In other words, a company may sell a block of cheese for $6.00, but the government can buy the same cheese and package it in plain paper and sell it for $2.50. See? It’s about leverage and keeping it simple. … Read MoreMost of what we buy we’re paying for the brand or the packaging for the most part. Quality too, of course, but remember it’s the stuff made in China that is cheaply made! Chances are that a good portion of Americans will not take the public option when it happens…well…unless the current health care prices don’t change. Then they will choose to go the cheaper route. After WWII, we had people in the 1950’s building homes via the GI Bill….lots of them. We were a manufacturing country still. We did prosper after WWII and Unions were still strong. :-) “

This is why a public option is needed.

Debate means an actual give and take with reasoned discussion about the pros and cons of each position not screaming and ad hominem attacks where the goal is to shut down any debate because someone might actually change their mind.

The people saying they don’t want a “socialized” America are right, they don’t want an America where people talk to each other respectfully and intelligently, they want an America where whoever screams the loudest wins.

Those listening to Glenn Beck (Katy Abram is a huge supporter of his!) are the misinformed ones. The End.

How do you think you post comes across to someone who does not share your opinion of the protesters? Cooler heads should prevail. You way is no way to win an argument.

Here’s Glenn Beck pissed off about America’s health care system after he had 8 hemorrhoids removed from his butt (and possible his mouth…we’re not sure):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX1rLv_hNeI

Becks gets ready to sue the hospital after his surgery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..eature=fvw

I thought the wingers were against tort cases? Oh wait! They’re only against anyone else suing a doctor but they can! See?

delete

I remember when some U.S. government official — or maybe it was from an NGO or just a pundit — was counseling progressive candidates for leadership positions such as the presidency in foreign countries where there was an old, entrenched order. His advice to the candidate was to pick an even more progressive candidate as his No. 2, the idea being that no one would want to knock off the No. 1 (assuming he won the election) if they thought they were going to get an even more progressive candidate upon doing so. Sorry I didn’t explain myself better.

To your first point. It is my understanding that the ‘public option’ is simply a transition to single payer that will eliminate the need for employer based insurance.

First, small businesses and individuals who cannot negotiate lower rates will be allowed into the exchange of government mandated ‘qualified plans.’

Next, if your employer chooses to change coverages, even something as minor as a change in the co-pay, your employer must enroll you in the ‘public option.’ Further, if the ‘public option’ it is less expensive for the employer, (as it surely will be) the employer will drop private insurance for the ‘public option.’ One may choose from a government mandated ‘qualified plan’ but it may be very different from what one now enjoys.

It is also my understanding that it may not be possible to buy additional or so-called ‘gold-plated’ coverage without both individuals and employers being taxed. Thereby making it more difficult for private plans to compete with the ‘public option’, and more expensive for employers to provide such coverage to their employees.

I also understand that as time goes by (5 years, I believe) larger and larger companies will be allowed to choose the ‘public option’ until we reach a single payer system.

This info does not match up with the promise, ‘if you like you plan you can keep it.’ Shouldn’t the POTUS make clear that the ‘public option’ will allow you to keep your plan…for now?

“. . . . . .more in common with Code Pink than with ELF.”

WTF???

Engrish, I recall it vaguely . . . . sigh, teh stoopids . . . .

Politico.com, indie, that’s your place . . . you’ve been misdirected.

And how many viewers does Beck have? Most folks I know are at work. Cable news is not the reason why so many are concerned about the size and scope of this proposed reform.

Perhaps but my point still stands.

The point that I declared wrong (from working as a legislative aide in two representatives’ offices) still stands, because….?

Perhaps but why do you want me to go? Again, I am serious when I say that I believe that if you can convince me, you can win this debate.

My main concern with this bill is that it is just too good to be true. I do not buy the notion that we can lower costs by increasing demand for services without running deficits, raising taxes beyond the wealthy and or rationing care.

The laws of supply and demand are economic FACTS.

Medicare and Medicare appear to control costs without rationing care, because they are operating at a loss that is subsidized by the government.

Agreed. I posted my concerns. Have yet to have one responded to here.

I have been told I am in the wrong place. Been accused of not doing any research. And I have been called an idiot.

Is this the type of reasoned discussion that leads to intelligent debate?

Hoss, if yer any indication of the level of “informed” teh peoples is, they is pretty ignorant. You need to get out more, see the REST of the planet. There’s a whole nation of 76% out there who said WE WANT REFORM! WE WANT CHANGE! WE WANT PUBLIC OPTION (govt run) HEALTHCARE!

So, yer majority of folks you mingle with daily, they’s a small subset of the sample size of the population available for sampling . . . . 76% proves it, too. Yer in the 24%, or less. 13% likely, with the haters, deathers, birthers, and abortion doctor murderers. You know, the one’s with the white hoods.

Politico.com, I keep tellin ya. Yer cover as a caring, sensitive rational Ind. is blown worse than a bad porn scene gone wrong.

And now, it’s a lovely day here in godforsakenvalleythattimeforgot, I’m gonna go play in the garden, pick some ‘maters, maybe run an errand with the honey. Watch some Tiger, listen to some live streaming fest blue/new/hippie grass, maybe even drink a cold one in a frosted mug.

Don’t none of you Pups let the trolls ’splode yer heads while I’m gone now, y’heah? *G*

And to all Pups, I’m sorry I engaged, but teh stoopid was just too much to take after 3 shots of espresso . .*G*

Have yet to have one responded to here.

IOW, have not been reading/listening: all have been contradicted, so obviously that is not what you came here for. The name for this activity is ‘concern trolling’ – no response is acceptable if you have no power of understanding.

Bye.

Oh WTF.

With a govt run public option that does this:

1) Covers everyone
2) Starts immediately
3) Eliminates previe existing conditions for rejection
4) Is deducted from your payroll taxes as private does now
5) And STILL funds unemployed, poor, and present uncovered
6) Buys and negotiates NATIONALLY
7) Holds private insurance to the fire
8) Forces the med/pharm industry to eliminate waste (like doc’s and doc and med groups who own anciallary services and the equipment so they refer extra services to themselves to increase profits)

*With taxes increased on 5% wealthy
*With taxes on corporate increased (balanced by lower hc premiums cuz private is ripping them off)
*And eliminates 30 effin % of private insurance costs that goes to admin/bonus/profits

The damned thing’s paid for from the get go.

End of story.

NEXT!!!!

“Honey, can I get another espresso, please?”
“What, I’ve had too many?”
“‘K, let’s go shopping and get it over with.” *sigh*

Stopped by here for the first time two days ago and responded to the pay for play with big pharma.

Label me however you like but you discredit your cause by telling me, sorry, you missed that or we already covered that. Not a ‘troll’ just a concerned citizen trying to look at this from all sides.

The CBO says otherwise and even the President has not made such a claim. I know he promises a ‘deficit neutral’ bill but nothing Congress has proposed comes close to filling the $200+ billion dollar gap needed to make that happen. Also, when has the federal government ever created a program that ‘pays for itself’?

Collectivist programs are inherently flawed because while all men are created equal, the nature of life on this planet is unfair. We can strive to make our country ‘more perfect’ but at some point what you seek to give to one, fails to remain ‘fair’ to another. Is it ‘fair’ that a healthy person pay for the health care needs of a smoker? An obese person? How far should the generosity of others extend? At what point does ‘promoting the general welfare’ become ‘providing for the general welfare’?

It is an important distinction that must be made. I recently heard CNN anchor Wolf Blitzer, filling in for Larry King, cry, “What can THE GOVERNMENT DO to FORCE people to live healthier?”

It made me laugh, and then it made me angry. Is that what we can look forward to with a single payer system?

Sorry, I think the proper quote from Blitzer is , “What can the COUNTRY do…”

Frankly, I don’t care if it pays for itself. Repeal the Bush tax cuts and collect the taxes that businesses and wealthy individuals are dodging every year in offshore havens. Those steps would go a long way toward fully funding Medicare and Medicaid and subsidizing a public option. We are a wealthy country. We can afford to make some sacrifices in order to provide quality health care for all.

No, sorry, I’m not buying this that you’re “for real” or “just a concerned citizen” looking for facts.

Facts were quoted to you above, and you chose to refute them or disbelieve them.

No, I’d bet my last dollar you’re not only not “for real” but you’re getting paid to post on sites like this one.

If I’m wrong (and I’m wrong a lot), then rather than continue to post here (for now, by all means come back), but rather than continue to post, take an entire day, and print out every health care blog on this site over the last week. Some will be full of opinion, some full of blowback at the other side, but many, many will be full of the facts you say you are looking for.

We’ve been responding to you ever since you showed up, but you’re going ‘lalala, I can’t hear you’ all the time.

Calling us names and telling us we don’t understand you, when we’re pointing out your (many!) errors, doesn’t make us believe you’re honest in commenting here. You sound, quite honestly, like another damned troll.

In answer to “what can the country do”? The better question is “what can YOU Do?” Answer: tell ALL of your friends to STOP; stop acting like a fool, stop acting like a child, and stop acting like an a$$hole.

This acting, nor acts, will never get you what you want. What you want is the status quo – which is gone forever! You can not “unring a bell”, you can only deal with the hand you have been shuffled. You can’t change anything and you aren’t allowed to go back. You also need to know “when to fold up” before you lose all of your earnings!. You will at least be able to leave with your guts intact.

Good splaination! Could not have said it better myself :_)

And guess what else Larue, “they” understand exactly what “they want to understand” and do NOT care to hear the rest. I get tired of arguing with them because I know “they” could not be that stupid to believe all of this bs they are talking about (i.e., death panels???.

“Lunatic Fringe” is an exellent description and label for these psychos. “Shun ‘em”.

Great teaching points you have laid out. Keep up the good work. Maybe there are those still unconvinced about the benefits of the Health Care Reform Bill and need a little bit of Optimism and see how this can turn into GOOD NEWS for a CHANGE!

I am so ready for some good news- how about you?

I agree that it is absolutely amazing how un-informed these wing nuts are!

It is hard to believe that people would believe anything SO STUPID! And – they REPEAT IT! STUPIDITY or COMATOSE- it has to be one or the other.

The only way to avoid any thing more catastrophic is that we ask anyone we know who’s taking part in this rebellion to stop it immediately. If each one of us, who knows anyone in this “mob”, demand that they STOP this nonsense, it will hopefully go a long way into shaming them out of this behavior.

I believe in God so I leave the rest to HIM.

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

The employer doesn’t change the coverage. The insurance company does. They can go up on the rates (which is considered a change to the policy) and this change can allow the insurance company to go up on their price to the employer and then the employer goes up on the employees.

If wingers were capable of such rational thought… they wouldn’t be wingers!