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	<title>Comments on: Expanding the Investigation into SERE Torture</title>
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	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/</link>
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		<title>By: Jeff Kaye</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/#comment-1956365</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Kaye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 04:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/#comment-1956365</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Oh, I misunderstood your question.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Cheney would have turned to the CIA. He might have, on his own initiative, spoken to Special Forces officers. But the interconnections between CIA and SF on a covert level are quite tight. It’s my belief the CIA was in charge of setting up Mitchell-Jessen, or setting those wheels in motion. Later, when they asked for OLC opinions for cover, they withheld information about what they were doing and what they already knew about SERE techniques. OLC could then say, “we’re relying on what you tell us.” The whole thing was a shadow play.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I misunderstood your question.</p>
<p>Cheney would have turned to the CIA. He might have, on his own initiative, spoken to Special Forces officers. But the interconnections between CIA and SF on a covert level are quite tight. It’s my belief the CIA was in charge of setting up Mitchell-Jessen, or setting those wheels in motion. Later, when they asked for OLC opinions for cover, they withheld information about what they were doing and what they already knew about SERE techniques. OLC could then say, “we’re relying on what you tell us.” The whole thing was a shadow play.</p>
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		<title>By: Marlee</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/#comment-1956362</link>
		<dc:creator>Marlee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 04:17:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/#comment-1956362</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Jane Mayer’s book, The Dark Side sure does open anyone’s eyes that read it. So many questions are answered. The OLC (Office of Legal Council)is the most dangerous group in government. Every player in this puzzle is pegged.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jane Mayer’s book, The Dark Side sure does open anyone’s eyes that read it. So many questions are answered. The OLC (Office of Legal Council)is the most dangerous group in government. Every player in this puzzle is pegged.</p>
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		<title>By: earlofhuntingdon</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/#comment-1956361</link>
		<dc:creator>earlofhuntingdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 02:50:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/#comment-1956361</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The background on SERE training - potentially useful in preparing service personnel for what to expect if captured - is useful, as is the background on torture programs - which we presumably developed and used primarily under CIA auspices before 9/11.  But my comment was about the first to propose torture as official policy and practice in response to 9/11.  My question is really whether it came from personnel associated with the Air Force or whether it leaked out of many pores, having been developed and used clandestinely in the past.  I gather from your response that it was probably the latter.  My surmise is that after thirty plus years in govt, Dick Cheney knew that history and helped make clandestine programs official and more widely used.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The background on SERE training &#8211; potentially useful in preparing service personnel for what to expect if captured &#8211; is useful, as is the background on torture programs &#8211; which we presumably developed and used primarily under CIA auspices before 9/11.  But my comment was about the first to propose torture as official policy and practice in response to 9/11.  My question is really whether it came from personnel associated with the Air Force or whether it leaked out of many pores, having been developed and used clandestinely in the past.  I gather from your response that it was probably the latter.  My surmise is that after thirty plus years in govt, Dick Cheney knew that history and helped make clandestine programs official and more widely used.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Kaye</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/#comment-1956360</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Kaye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 02:12:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/#comment-1956360</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I don’t have time for long answer. Historically, the Navy came first with research into coercive interrogations and mind control (Project Chatter or its predecessors in late 1940s).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The Air Force got involved in 51-52 when its flyers got shot down in Korea/China, and “confessed” to dropping bio weapons on Korea/China, an accusation which may or may not have been “false.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The Office of Naval Research sponsored a lot of the MKULTRA research, or the CIA filtered it through Navy auspices. The Army had its own programs, but they are less known. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;One problem in our understanding what occurred in the 1950s and 1960s is that many of the documents were destroyed, or remain classified.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It’s hard to say where torture started, since it has such an octopus-like existence. D. Rejali’s book Torture and Democracy shows how the spread of torture, like any other cultural phenomenon, is difficult to trace, and is idiosyncratic in its development.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don’t have time for long answer. Historically, the Navy came first with research into coercive interrogations and mind control (Project Chatter or its predecessors in late 1940s).</p>
<p>The Air Force got involved in 51-52 when its flyers got shot down in Korea/China, and “confessed” to dropping bio weapons on Korea/China, an accusation which may or may not have been “false.”</p>
<p>The Office of Naval Research sponsored a lot of the MKULTRA research, or the CIA filtered it through Navy auspices. The Army had its own programs, but they are less known. </p>
<p>One problem in our understanding what occurred in the 1950s and 1960s is that many of the documents were destroyed, or remain classified.</p>
<p>It’s hard to say where torture started, since it has such an octopus-like existence. D. Rejali’s book Torture and Democracy shows how the spread of torture, like any other cultural phenomenon, is difficult to trace, and is idiosyncratic in its development.</p>
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		<title>By: earlofhuntingdon</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/#comment-1956358</link>
		<dc:creator>earlofhuntingdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 01:29:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/#comment-1956358</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks, Jeff, for another insightful piece.  Two dynamics stand out for me.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;One, each service battled to develop its own version of a SERE, just as each battled to have its own Specia Ops unit, so as not to be beholden on another service for its special needs.  Each SERE team was fostered by its own brood of psychologist-cum-special warfare specialists.  From a taxpayers’ perspective, this seems like wasteful duplication of effort, since the scenarios to be trained in seem to have more similarities than differences.  This might be put down to traditional, inter-service rivalry, always expensive for taxpayers.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Two, the “first to torture” appears to have been the Air Force.  The service that always seems to be third place, after the institutionally older Army and Navy seems to have an Avis-size chip on its shoulder boards.  That was especially true after the demise of the Cold War, around which the AF built its missiles, bombers, fighters, bases and budgets.  After that no longer provided a reason for being, or for gigantic budgets, the AF needed a new enemy worthy of attacking (or “defending” ourselves from) by using the Air Force’s men, women and machines.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It suggests a deep-seated cultural problem beyond inter-service rivalry.  The Air Force’s super macho fighter jock model seems more strained that its service rivals.  It may be the least adaptable of its peers.  The AF’s service academy in Colorado Springs is also home to an ueber-Christian, sexist sect that produces officers in its image and denigrates those without it.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Jeff, for another insightful piece.  Two dynamics stand out for me.  </p>
<p>One, each service battled to develop its own version of a SERE, just as each battled to have its own Specia Ops unit, so as not to be beholden on another service for its special needs.  Each SERE team was fostered by its own brood of psychologist-cum-special warfare specialists.  From a taxpayers’ perspective, this seems like wasteful duplication of effort, since the scenarios to be trained in seem to have more similarities than differences.  This might be put down to traditional, inter-service rivalry, always expensive for taxpayers.  </p>
<p>Two, the “first to torture” appears to have been the Air Force.  The service that always seems to be third place, after the institutionally older Army and Navy seems to have an Avis-size chip on its shoulder boards.  That was especially true after the demise of the Cold War, around which the AF built its missiles, bombers, fighters, bases and budgets.  After that no longer provided a reason for being, or for gigantic budgets, the AF needed a new enemy worthy of attacking (or “defending” ourselves from) by using the Air Force’s men, women and machines.</p>
<p>It suggests a deep-seated cultural problem beyond inter-service rivalry.  The Air Force’s super macho fighter jock model seems more strained that its service rivals.  It may be the least adaptable of its peers.  The AF’s service academy in Colorado Springs is also home to an ueber-Christian, sexist sect that produces officers in its image and denigrates those without it.</p>
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		<title>By: stryder</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/#comment-1956354</link>
		<dc:creator>stryder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 00:27:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/#comment-1956354</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;thanks for bringing more clarity to these important points.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks for bringing more clarity to these important points.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Kaye</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/#comment-1956351</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Kaye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 00:04:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/#comment-1956351</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;That’s a good question. It could be that they feel they don’t have enough info. But I think they swallow the spin too easily, of guys like Kleinman.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That’s a good question. It could be that they feel they don’t have enough info. But I think they swallow the spin too easily, of guys like Kleinman.</p>
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		<title>By: Teddy Partridge</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/#comment-1956342</link>
		<dc:creator>Teddy Partridge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 23:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/#comment-1956342</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Why  is the New York Times ignoring these relationships, Jeff?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Thank you, terrific work in this series you’re doing.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why  is the New York Times ignoring these relationships, Jeff?</p>
<p>Thank you, terrific work in this series you’re doing.</p>
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		<title>By: lukasiak</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/#comment-1956339</link>
		<dc:creator>lukasiak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 23:20:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/#comment-1956339</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Good stuff… but I wish I’d waited til tomorrow to read it, ’cause I can’t wait for the next installment!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good stuff… but I wish I’d waited til tomorrow to read it, ’cause I can’t wait for the next installment!</p>
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		<title>By: Suzanne</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/#comment-1956338</link>
		<dc:creator>Suzanne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 23:18:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/14/expanding-the-investigation-into-sere-torture/#comment-1956338</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;thank you for digging out the info jeff.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thank you for digging out the info jeff.</p>
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